First Ever Internet Stream Show Reviews a Letter from a Roman Catholic

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Since a Roman Catholic man (that pilots an F-16) was unhappy that his wife bought a book from James White, he sent a letter with anti-Protestant challenges to Dr. White’s wife. Dr. White responds to the historicity and presuppositions of its three challenges while taking the first ever phone call questions from the internet-only broadcast, including on the development of Roman Catholic doctrine, paedobatism, and “God as the author of evil”. The new setup also allows for a wider variety of sound effects and audio clips.

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Ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And good evening and welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white and we are doing something brand new this evening
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So everybody gets to be patient With us. Yes, indeed.
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We are live streaming this evening. It's the first time we've done this so We're not sure how everything's gonna work
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And in fact the possibilities of it working perfectly first time are about as good as the possibilities of getting an election taken care of in one day right now here in the
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United States, so we'll just do our best and Hope that you can participate and in fact,
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I would like to invite you to participate at 866 this is toll -free folks write it down.
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It's in our chat room. It's on our web page, but the toll -free number eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen eight six six five five zero
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Thirty nine fifteen now unlike some people who have Phone numbers that spell names like ask
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Hank ours is eight six six. Good. You could see it We're not sure what that means, but we're going to do some translation work on it and figure it out
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Actually, we should have a little bit of a contest Have people figure out what five five zero thirty nine fifteen could actually be translated into That would be sort of interesting to do now since we're live on the
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Internet That means that we can discuss with folks Straight out of our chat room and right now.
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There's already 20 people in our chat room You can go into the chat room. The instructions are on our website
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Aomin org and you can ask questions in there. I can't guarantee With all the stuff that's going along in the chat room right now that I'm going to see everything
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In fact, I suppose I should tell folks in the chat room if you want to ask a question maybe put it in red or or Purple or chartreuse or something so that it sort of stands out so I can see it as it goes along my screen
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But so we do want to be significantly more Interactive on this program than we can be when we were on Kpxq when we were on a radio station.
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We want to be able to interact with folks we want to be able to have folks all across the United States participate in the program and Really be able to do some some stuff that maybe we felt a little bit
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I don't know uncomfortable doing when When we were live on the air, you know, sometimes, you know, you sort of feel like the government's listening or something
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I suppose they're listening now, too. I don't know but We can do a lot of things like tonight.
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I'm gonna be talking about something. That'll probably blow a number of you away But we would like to invite your questions if there's issues that you'd like to bring up questions
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You'd like to ask we're gonna be here and our goal is to be here until 830
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Mountain. What is it standard time? I don't know. We don't play with our clocks here in Arizona, but that's a 90 minutes and why 90 minutes?
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90 minutes because that allows us to put one program on a tape and So that'll give us more time.
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We don't have to worry about all sorts of things like commercials to worry about and There are also all sorts of other neat things we can do
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And I don't want this to Scare anyone at all. I really don't but if you call in and you ask, you know, maybe just like Maybe you make a silly statement or something like that.
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There are other things we can do like I now have Literally megabytes of WAV files available to me and they're just sitting here right in front of me
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I'm actually sitting at the desk that I sit at most of the day writing books and articles and doing things like that and So I've got access to all of my computer my
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Bible programs my notes all the rest that kind of stuff and I can bring Those things up but like if you were to call in and say make a you know
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Silly statement and hang up on us or something like that. See then I can do things. Well like this
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Now you see now that was the first time we did that see and what happens is rich on the other side of the wall there has to figure out what my system is going to be doing to adjust the the volume there, but but fact that why don't we just That's much better I think that's good that's
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The phone number eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen in fact, I'd like to ask maybe some of you to just give us a ring let's we need to sort of Talk with one another test this thing out make sure how it's gonna work because I want to have folks on the program in the future in the sense of guests and That it's gonna get really hairy to figure out how to keep the guest up and and the levels and all the rest that neat Fun stuff, but we'd like to test out the toll -free number eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen
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You may have some questions. You'd like to ask Why don't you go ahead and give us a ring and let's see how that works out and the first thing we're to talk about today
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I'm telling you I Got a letter. Well, actually
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I didn't get a letter. Yes. It's toll -free. I Didn't get the letter the letter arrived at my home and It was addressed to my wife and There was no return address now.
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I guess in the future when I see letters arriving at my home my personal address and I don't see a
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You know a Return address on it that that's probably going to be indicative of me that I need to take a look at it but it was addressed to my wife and So I just left it for her to open the figure maybe as a friend, you know
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Who knows a wedding invitation? I don't know and I came home. This was yesterday. I came home
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Actually, it's Tuesday. I came home and my wife said did you did you see that letter and I said no and she showed it to me and I was absolutely amazed about I don't know three and a half years ago, maybe somewhere around in there
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I was talking Actually was contacted by an individual by a woman who contacted the ministry and Requested certain information
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Information concerning the fact that her husband was converting to Roman Catholicism and and so on and so forth and so I Took the time since I saw that the address
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Of the place where these folks lived was right on one of the streets that I rode my bike on I was a cyclist at the time.
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I I rode, you know about four times during the week and so I attempted to Save them some postage save them some time and I hand delivered the books that were ordered
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Put them in the mailbox didn't actually Get to meet anyone at the time Nobody answered the phone
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In fact as I recall now as I pulled up into the driveway my cleat in my road bike
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Caught and I almost ended up in the middle of a cactus That was a I had forgotten about that until just now almost gave my life to try to administer these folks
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Well, anyways make long story short The woman's wife con a woman's wife woman's husband contacted me and began to Dialogue or attempt to dialogue with me regarding the subjects of Roman Catholicism.
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And so what I did is He had the same kind of standard
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Objections that we run into all the time and that is well look, you know what you believe Wasn't known by the early church fathers and it was all made up in the 16th century and yada yada yada
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And so I spent quite some time I sent a lengthy email to this gentleman who by the way is in the
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Air Force. He is a fighter Pilot flies f -16s.
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There may be one zeroing in on me right now for all I know and I Spent how probably in the first two email discussions hour and a half two hours minimally
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Sending patristic citations. I sent him an entire list of patristic citations talking about sola scriptura well
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The response that I got from him It was basically None of these say sola scriptura since it doesn't use the exact words.
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That doesn't say sola scriptura. That doesn't say sola scriptura. And I'm sort of like well, well, you've got to read what the individual is saying
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I mean from the Roman Catholic perspective, you're gonna use all sorts of Patristic citations quotes from early church fathers.
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It may not use the exact terminology, but you would say are actually teaching what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and so, you know
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How can you be consistent here? Well very quickly the conversation broke down because the individual simply would not talk with me in a meaningful fashion
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Just would not deal with what I was attempting to say and Eventually what happened is this individual this man?
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Would keep sending emails and and he would keep going back over and back over and back over the same issues
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That had already been answered it and no answer could possibly satisfy this individual and we have had that happen many times in fact if you're involved in apologetic work if you're involved in an apologetic ministry and Attempting to share with folks.
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You've just got to recognize that there are times when they're going to be individuals who will not listen I mean when we look at the
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New Testament There were many times when Paul had to turn around and walk away from a group of people Because they would not hear what he had to say that that there is absolutely no
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Promise in Scripture that if you do all of your homework if you practice your presentation
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That everybody you present this to is just going to hit their knees and repent. It doesn't work that way
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Well, eventually it just simply got bothersome. I mean this man would send me stuff and you know
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It was the same old thing over and over and over and over again And so finally
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I said, would you just you know, would you just not contact me anymore? and so he started sending emails to our church and To one of my fellow elders the church and he didn't realize that that particular fellow elder would be significantly less interested in What he had to say than I was
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I can guarantee you that but Eventually for a while it just it just sort of stopped and And I didn't hear from for a while Well until Tuesday Because you may have probably figured out this letter this letter
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Was from this f -16 fighter pilot and he decided to send it
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He decided to send it to my wife at our home address Without putting a return address on it and What does this what does this letter say well in essence,
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I Thought I'll read to you. I've sent this for you to share with your wife, but now it wasn't addressed to me
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It was addressed to my wife You personally shared your book with my wife because she called and ordered it that is so I thought it was a good idea
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To present these challenges to your wife so she can see if what she is believing or what you are saying is the one truth of Jesus Christ outside of your opinion of the truth that is
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Perhaps perhaps she will see the lack of substantiation in your modern opinions on scripture
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For all you have to do to substantiate your arguments and the validity of Protestant doctrines is just that your modern opinion
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For no one before Luther seems to agree with you hmm Well, what are these challenges that our our brave?
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f -16 pilots has presented well, that's what we're gonna be looking at here and I would very much like to invite you to participate hint hint hint
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Eight six six five five zero thirty nine Fifteen eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen those of you in the chat room
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It's up in the topic line right up at the top. You can go look at it for yourself eight six six five five zero
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Thirty nine fifteen is the phone number We would invite you to participate this evening in the program that we can make sure how everything's working and hey
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It's your one shot at fame There are some people we don't need to have on on the program
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You know people like mentor 92. They don't they don't need to call in but other people like that.
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Hey feel free to to call in now here is Someone just it is toll -free.
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Yes, that is exactly right. It is Toll -free and if you were listening before we started the program you need to restart your stream
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So you can listen to the entire thing because it is out there But here are the three challenges that this individual feels that that no
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Protestant theologian can possibly answer and Here they are challenge number one
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The Catholic Faith has never Countermanded its doctrines find one it has then it says status unanswered and Contrast this challenge with the constantly changing thousands and thousands of Protestant doctrines.
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I Think what is being said there as well. We've never changed our theology and So that's the first challenge second challenge find one doctrine the early church believed that the
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Catholic Faith no longer does status unanswered and Contrast this with the following challenge exemplifying
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Protestant departure from the historical teachings of the Apostles in the early church and the third challenge is
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Is Protestantism Apostolic is it the teachings of the
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Apostles and the early church or is it invented? Renaissance theology
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Those are the three challenges now It was interesting that in the letter and I'm gonna look at each one of these three
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Unless of course those of you listening would like to call in and ask your own question at eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen eight six six five five zero thirty nine
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Fifteen is the number and yes, it is toll free
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You know with some folks you have to remind them of that over and over again anyhow, it was interesting at the bottom of the the letter a
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Quotation was provided by Dan by the way, our fighter pilots name is Dan to refuse to follow the father is not holding their declaration of more authority than one's own opinion is conduct worthy of blame as Being brimful of self -sufficiency
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That's from Basil the epistle to the Kennessee 52 one and That sounds very impressive
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Till you look it up and discover that in point of fact the quotation is from a letter that Basil wrote and He is writing it right at the beginning of his episcopate and He's writing it to women
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Enrolled in a list in the churches devoted to works of charity living apart from men though not under vows nor always in a community setting and When you read it in context what he's referring to here is the statement of the fathers at Nicaea regarding the deity of Christ he's not talking as it is seemingly understood by Dan our fighter pilot of listening to the fathers as a group and not rejecting what they have to say he's talking about the
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Council of Nicaea and when we go to the Council of Nicaea and When we listen to how those at the council like Athanasius defended the deity of Christ and what they believed
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How did they do that? Did they do that by reference to the Bishop of Rome? Did they do that by reference to?
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Unwritten traditions or did they do that by reference to and defense from what
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Athanasius described? Is that which was self -sufficient for the preaching of the truth and that is the scriptures?
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Well, we know the answer to that they went to the scriptures for their defense of that particular belief but let's talk about this because this is very very important these three challenges and I'm wondering of course whether Dan will will convert upon hearing these three challenges answered
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I don't know. Maybe maybe not but hey, we can only leave that up to the
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Holy Spirit of God You know, there's 24 people in our chat room right now And not a one of them even those who call themselves my friends have picked up the phone to call
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It's a tough life we live anyways number number one The Catholic Faith has never countermanded its doctrines find one it has
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Well that assumes that Okay, 23 people and one bot
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I wasn't expecting the bot to call in Okay, maybe the bot would be the most interesting caller we could get right now
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But we would like to have some others at eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen good grief.
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Anyways, I Assume that what is behind? the
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Question or the behind the challenge first of all is the assumption that you can know for certainty exactly what the teachings of the
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Roman Catholic Church are It also assumes that the Roman Catholic Church has always existed now it also seems to assume that Dan our fighter pilot has some sort of knowledge as to exactly what
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The teachings of the Catholic Faith are today For example, it is well known very very well known that The Roman Catholic Church taught say in the centuries prior to the
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Reformation the doctrine of extra -ecclesiam nullus allos outside of The church there is no salvation and They took that very very seriously very seriously now
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How seriously did they take that Well, let me read you a quotation that those of you who are joining us in the chat room are reading even as we speak
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The Council of Florence which was viewed as the 17th ecumenical council in Roman Catholicism said the following Council of Florence firmly believes professes and proclaims that Those not living within the
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Catholic Church, not only pagans But also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life
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But will depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels
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Matthew 25 41 unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock and that the unity of the
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Ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the
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Church of benefit for salvation and do fastings almsgivings and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce
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Eternal reward and that no one whatever almsgiving he is practiced Even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ can be saved
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Unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church and quote that's denzinger 714 now that really really is very clear and given the actions of the
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Inquisition giving the use of physical torture of Prison and in fact of the murder of quote -unquote heretics so as to save their souls
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It is very clear to any person any person at all
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What's extra Ecclesium nulla solace outside the church there is no offense. No salvation meant at that time
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What does it mean today What does it mean today? well
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Is that What the Roman Catholic Church teaches today? Well, I don't know. Oh, no one does
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I Mean you can go to the documents of Vatican 2 and you can read sections that seem to indicate to us that even
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Muslims are to be considered as Heirs of eternal life and yet you can then go to the recent
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Vatican encyclical and There you will find
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A discussion of the fact that there is no religious plurality. There is no other way of salvation outside of Jesus Christ and so which one's right?
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Well, no one knows that's the problem No one knows exactly what
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Rome teaches on these subjects and you'll find people who will sign up on each side and they will promote each perspective and You know, that's that's all there is to it so How do we understand how are we to know?
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Which of these doctrines are being taught officially today and hence answer the question
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That is answer the question. Well Rome has never countermanded one of its own doctrines well when you make
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Rome your ultimate authority and Say, okay. We are dependent
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Upon the Living church to tell us what the church in ancient times believed
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Then of course you can't prove that because all you have to do is say hey You know what the the
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Roman Catholic Church the church today defines what it's always taught And if the church says no
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We never taught that before or we never taught that doctrine that we've changed all of a sudden You don't have a contradiction anymore
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And so when the question is is put in the way that it's put here
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The Catholic Church has never countermanded its doctrines find one. It has I would say to you in point of fact
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That the earliest teachings concerning the authority of Scripture are such that they taught the
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Scriptures own sufficiency The later Roman Catholic doctrine contradicts that there would be one example
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Aside from extraclesium nullis alis so on and so forth. Well It is a great honor it is truly a a great honor to have our first caller on the
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That sounded good have our first caller Ready to go now.
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This is the first shot. We've taken at this folks So I just want to give you a little background. We used to have a radio program many many years ago on Oh KH EP and We had the exact same phone system at the radio station that we now have here at our office and To put people on the air.
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We literally had to put them on a speakerphone that had a microphone in front of it That's how bad it was now. We're not doing that but There were many times we'd hit a button and for some reason
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These phone systems when they know there is a live radio broadcast going on anywhere nearby sense it and Start doing really really weird things so if our first caller if we hit that button as rich is about to do in a moment if we hit that button and We end up calling
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Domino's Pizza or something. Don't blame us We have we're doing the best that we can possibly do and I think we've tried to test and make sure that when you're on hold
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You can hear what I'm saying all the rest that neat fun stuff I I really honestly don't know but we will we will find out here in a minute because thankfully
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Thankfully, we have someone who has shown the intestinal fortitude To get on the toll -free line, even though there were people in the chat room who?
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Who saw it was toll -free and yet complained about how much it cost and I saw these things as I was trying to be helpful to everybody but I Ignore them, but now we have someone who has shown
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Shown the patience and shown the bravery to take the honored position of our first caller on our web broadcast
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Christine is available to us Christine. Can you hear me? And I can
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I can just barely hear you. So thank you very much Thank yes, it is.
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Thank you very much for calling and now I I I think before you you ask your question
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I should I honestly should tell you that what we told you about how how
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David absolutely rolled up into a fetal position Prior to while you were gone and just was absolutely worthless was completely true
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It was completely true he is absolute you he can't live without you and I think it's a wonderful thing
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Yes, I did hear something about the food he was eating and it was pretty disgusting, you know Well, should
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I have this can of tuna fish? It was it was a really very sad thing But anyways, that's not what everywhere across the entire entire nation is
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Wanting to know so anyways, go ahead Oops, I just for some reason
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I had you right up to the point of the two donkey donkeys and then it faded out So there you there you are.
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Okay, I'm not sure what that I tell you this phone system It knows so go ahead from the point of two donkeys two priests on a donkey going around from city to city
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Right Right, well, yes, actually,
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I mean it would be expected That in modern times there would be a rather concerted effort to in some way shape or form
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Minimize the actual impact of the Inquisition and the use of inquisitorial powers
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But in reality, it was a widely organized and in fact, believe it or not the the actual office of the
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Inquisition Continues to this very day. It's called the sacred sacred congregation for doctrine or something along those lines
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Cardinal Ratzinger is the head of it. It still actually exists. It was not a underfunded or small small
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Work at all in point of fact There are a number of historical works and many of them are written by non -christians individuals who really don't have any particular
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Quote -unquote axe to grind as far as being Catholic or or non -catholic or whatever
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That go into this very issue one from a Protestant perspective is George Colton's work on the
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Inquisition which is very extensive and one of the reason one of the easy ways of refuting that kind of allegation is the fact that we have
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Tremendous records from the Inquisition. In fact, a lot of people are not Aware of this but in point of fact a lot of the information that we have today
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About the quote -unquote heretics that existed in the Middle Ages the
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Waldensians and the churches in the Piedmont Valley and so on so forth much of what we know about what they believed comes from the extensive records that the
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Inquisitors themselves kept and So the fact that we have this huge body of literature
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Demonstrates that it wasn't two priests on a donkey that produced this huge body of literature that we can then utilize to reconstruct a lot of the beliefs of People who lived in the
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Middle Ages and we also have to remember that there are well -documented Incidences of papal armies under the command of innocent the third
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Sacking entire cities that doesn't happen Without a tremendous number of people involved and so really when you when you look closely at the historical information
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The Inquisition grew out of the belief of the Roman Catholic Church that it and it alone
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Was the only true church that there was no possible way That there could be any salvation outside the church
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And so the Inquisitors themselves who were very powerful men very rich men They had a wide sphere of influence
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Frequently had very powerful positions within society many of them say in their writings that they honestly believe they were doing
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God's work Because by torturing the body they could save the soul and to us that's almost frightening to think of that But that was the mindset that they had and this extended literally over over over five and six centuries
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And and as I said the the congregation still exists today It was more intense in some areas there may have been some areas in say northern
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Europe Where it never amounted to more than two priests on a donkey But don't tell that to the folks in Spain and don't tell that to the folks in Italy and don't that tell that to Savonarola the the great
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Catholic Reformer who was caused to go through the trial by fire for his running
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Basically up against the Inquisition. So really there's there's just a tremendous amount of documentation on that particular subject and Fascinating reading though.
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It's it's scary. It quite honestly is is scary reading as well Well, thank and thank you for for two things a for being our first caller
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You will always be the first caller on the live web broadcast someday when we're satellite You will always be able to say you were first and then secondly, thank you for loaning
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David to us You know, he's he's our he's our techie guy, and we just we just love him
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Thank you very much Five eight six six eight six six five five any
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Benny Diaz just walked in and sitting back there behind me five so I can do that because we're on a live web broadcast
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And we don't have to worry about the FCC or anything like that eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen
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See how that works. See how that works like that. That was easy everybody You know
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Eric Nielsen, you could have been the first one man, but no no you lost the chance now. It's you know it's always just second third fourth, huh, it's
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Well, anyways, you know we tried we really did did try but we're very very thankful for for Christine for doing that We do have another caller online though, and let's go ahead and let's go ahead and take
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Michael in Okay, I'm a
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Michael you there I well I'm deaf now so could you sign your question to me?
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Okay, well could you send me some dimple chads or something like that that I could oh my goodness
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Sorry about that. Anyways, what's up aside from your being very kind to help us test this out all out
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Do you actually have a question this evening? Well, you know and we don't even have to always just do it on Saturday I mean we're gonna do this
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Saturday thing regularly But we can you know, sometimes folks like well, I'll tell
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I'll announce everybody now. I I plan I don't have a specific date yet, but I plan on having
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Steve camp on with me And the nice thing is if I couldn't get Steve on on a
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Saturday, then we can just simply put on the website. Hey, we're gonna do a special Special web broadcast with with Steve camp and you know tell people where it's gonna be and just do it that way
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That's Well, you're the first guy you can all think of it that way
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But my question this evening is what pronouncements did Pope Gregory the seventh make during his pontificate in the 11th century to advance papal authority
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Well, actually there were a number During that whole entire period and you probably have pop -ups on some of this that I don't even have of course, you've stolen all of mine, but You are very good at stealing pop -ups, yes, you even get the color, right?
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I'm not sure how you do that. But anyways That entire period was a period of tremendous growth and papal authority and it's in fact, it's interesting it
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It is was preceded by the lowest period of time in papal authority and then comes back up to The heights of papal authority under under innocent the third
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But you may be making reference to and I and I don't have in front of me the information But you may be making reference to the assertions of the
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Popes concerning their absolute temporal power utilizing the illustration of the two swords or also the illustration of the
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Sun and the moon where the Temporal power of the of the King for example is likened to that of the moon which is simply reflective of the power of the
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Sun which is the power of the papacy and each of these Gregory and innocent the third and others just made greater and greater claims for themselves up until the point where you encounter
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Someone like a Boniface who while he continues to make great claims for himself He actually ends up collapsing under His own weight in the sense that he did not have the strength of personality or shall
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We say the strength of the politics of the day to be able to substantiate what he was asserting And so you have this tremendous growth at that time that then the power then led to tremendous corruption over the next number of Centuries and of course leading eventually to the
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Reformation Did you have a specific one that you wanted to make reference to? Well that pretty much did answer my question of course also if you look at his pontificate approximately around 1074
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You know the well the Eastern Church and or the Western Church that they called many of their priests and bishops
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Pope and he was the first gentleman if I'm not mistaken to pronounce and Declare that only he has the right to be called
38:22
Pope and if I'm not mistaken He also declared that he is the first canonized living saint
38:29
Gregory the seventh Oh, well that I was unaware of that would that would cause a major problem with the the sin of pride
38:36
I would think to to canonize yourself before you die is you know I?
38:42
Can think of some politicians who might do that today, but we won't mention any names Well, dr.
38:48
Why don't you know that Rome hasn't failed for authority and defining what the sin of pride is that's well?
38:54
That's true when you're when you're the infallible definer of the sin of pride is you can just say no that wasn't pride I didn't I didn't do that.
39:00
That's an easy way to go. Well. Hey. Thanks a lot Michael appreciate your calling from you know Whenever I see Ogden, New York.
39:06
I figure Ogden, Utah, okay? You know I'm expecting some Mormon question or something like that, but I didn't even know there
39:11
Where is Ogden, New York Ogden is right outside of right now snow and fester,
39:16
Rochester Rochester Rochester Mormon territory also right outside of Rochester Joseph Smith founded
39:25
Mormonism Approximately at well 1830 when he trans so -called translated the Nephi plate
39:31
April 6 1830 action Yes, and you know just about two counties over for me is the brand -new
39:36
Mormon temple. They built to Right on the hill Camorra site, and you know we're swamped with Mormons up here
39:43
You know we'd like to have you up here to do battle on Their Hill Camorra pageant, and yeah
39:49
I'd like to I'd like to do that sometime haven't been to the Hill Camorra pageant haven't been to the Manti pageants and probably need to To get to both of them, but this you know
39:58
I just keep writing these silly books And it just takes a tremendous amount of amount of time so well anyways, okay?
40:05
Thanks for calling Michael Thank you. All right. God bless toll free folks 5 5 0
40:12
I'm sorry 8 6 6 5 5 0 3 9 15 at no one's come up with yet with an acronym for 5 5 0 3 9 15
40:19
I Mean I really think there's some techie people in the channel would be able to figure 5 5 0 3 9 15 it's got it
40:26
It's got us be able to spell something. You know some sort of acronym I mean especially people from Microsoft should be able to figure something like that out at least
40:32
I would think so 8 6 6 5 5 0 39 15 hey before I get back to To f -16
40:42
Dano's Challenges here, and I hope I'm potted up a hint to those in control
40:50
I Had I mentioned briefly on the air a few weeks ago, and I'm not sure how many of you heard that but I had the opportunity a few weeks ago while I was in Florida to Well debate
41:05
Roberts and Janice and by the way, we're still waiting on the tapes for this and Janice debate and We keep contacting the folks and they keep saying they're gonna do it and it's gonna get here in fact some of those folks may be
41:18
Listening in Florida. Maybe you'd like to call in Flora duh, that's F L O R I D U H Florida is the new
41:27
Official name of that wonderful state out there in the ocean Anyways while I was there
41:36
I had the opportunity of Singing with Steve cam now all
41:41
I did is I back up now don't don't anybody goes Yeah, you claim to sing with Steve well all
41:46
I did was back up, but man that was so much fun that was so much fun to do that and during now you now you get to find out something a little bit about what happens sort of behind the scenes and Benny gets to find these things out too because he's sitting here listening in the background
42:04
Oh, we had a plagiarism join the chat channel. That's cool. That's cool. Anyways One of the one of the things that happened in the background was
42:15
During right before the debate started Steve camp was going to sing at the beginning of the debate at the break and at the end and So Steve comes comes up to me and says so you think
42:28
I should sing cornerstone and I Laughed to myself and I said
42:34
Steve if you sang cornerstone, I would never hear the end of it I would never ever hear the end of it.
42:40
So what I'm gonna do here real quick is we're gonna we're gonna test out how this works and I'd like to see if it is even possible for you to understand over streaming live audio
42:54
We've got two folks online online Wow, cool I'm impressed and I know who they both are too.
43:00
You guys started feeling a little guilty. Yeah, that's good All right. Anyways before we take those phone calls, I would like to remind you of Steve camp song that he was going to sing during the
43:11
Roman Catholic debate and you might see why I said Steve if you if you sing this I will never hear the end of it as a result, but Listening to what
43:21
Steve camp has to say in a song called cornerstone It's all works righteousness, you know
44:05
Can I manufacture grace Some religious place by weeping hard on your face saying prayers some dead saints, you know
44:18
It's not to preach a liturgy Self -flagellation till you bleed
44:25
Sacrifice that you can't keep Mysteries and visions when you dream
44:32
Never way that you must come To the father through the son
44:38
Loving him more than other loves family friends yourself
44:44
In a world Like You cannot add one thing to him to save your soul from the curse of sin
45:20
You must lose your life so you may win salvation He had to cling to Him, a suffering servant,
45:29
Prince of Peace The Lamb of God, incarnate Deity Christ died for God at Calvary, now we've been redeemed
45:41
By grace alone, through faith alone
45:47
On the Word alone, because He is our only hope
45:58
He's the cornerstone Give His life for it's the just and all the unjust
46:17
No greater love was ever shown I'd stand in the end forever, and I'll raise from heaven's throne
46:27
And the true gift of salvation is by grace to faith alone
46:40
Alone, alone, through faith
47:17
He is God, He is
47:23
Lord Do your best and nothing less to be blessed
47:54
And try to save your soul from death It's all worth righteousness, you can know
48:29
Abandoned to God was the most recent one and Mercy in the Wilderness was the one before that Great, great
48:36
Christian music if you like that kind Maybe we can throw out
48:43
Pounding on Wittenberg's Door That's what we got, Pounding on Wittenberg's Door is the other one
48:50
Well, we're getting the phone calls going here We're getting the phone calls going here Then that's good Let me just real quickly before we take the next call
49:00
Answer the second of the challenges presented by Danno Find one doctrine the early church believed the
49:06
Catholic faith no longer does Well, the main thing there, Dan, is
49:12
I can give you entire lists of doctrines the early church didn't believe that the Catholic church does
49:18
And that's the important part The important part is recognizing that there has been addition
49:25
And yes, I would say, for example, if you look at what Matthaeus wrote to Diognetius in his belief in Sola Fide What Clement said,
49:34
Clement's constant references to the elect But of course, we don't know what Rome believes about that anyways, do we? That's a good question
49:40
And being asked if I'm ready for a break, I just took one That was called Steve Camp So, am
49:47
I to understand that we have actual ability to do a break or something like that with commercials?
49:54
You see, I used to talk to Rich through the window Now the window is my computer screen
50:01
Because poor Rich is on the other side of a wall And it really wouldn't do us any good to knock a hole in the wall
50:08
Because my books are in front of it So that really wouldn't actually accomplish anything at all So, I'm assuming that this would include promotion for the
50:17
Roman Catholic Conference or something like that, right? Sort of Sort of I like that That's sort of That's a good answer
50:29
It's better than none Oh, folks, you've got to... Whenever I ask a question like that And when
50:36
I ask some questions like in the future When, you know, when folks are...
50:44
You know, sometimes I'll ask someone who call in a question I just don't have any idea how to answer it In the future, this is what we're going to be able to do
50:58
Yep, uh -huh There we go That's gonna be so much fun to do that kind of thing
51:11
Maybe we'll do that to someone who calls in tonight Who knows? It's a possibility I'm not saying
51:17
I'm gonna do that Okay, Rich, I'll tell you what If you want to take a break Why don't we take a break and then bring all of our folks online and get the answers
51:26
Get the answers ready to go, okay? So we're gonna take a break And we'll be right back with our callers right after this
51:32
Conference on Rome I know
51:38
I'm on Thank you I was expecting to... I was actually sitting here with my headphone way away from my ear
51:44
Because when we come back on, I expect that Type thing that has really damaged my hearing
51:50
But I guess we're not going to use those anymore Even though they would be cool Maybe we could find them some other time Anyways, we have callers online
51:57
And let's... I'm working on it Let's get to... Oh, that sounds nice Let's talk with...
52:05
You're gonna do something... You know I can hear you You know they can hear you So much fun
52:13
Okay, Dave Hi, Dave Hi, James How are you doing? I'm doing all right
52:18
Hey, I didn't shame you into calling today No Now are you telling the truth or is your nose growing?
52:26
It's growing a little bit Okay, all right So what's...
52:31
You can... You've been able to... I noticed just as things were flying by my screen that... You said cable is a wonderful thing
52:38
Yes, it is And so you're able to hear nice and clear? Yes, I can We're not always going to ask folks this
52:44
And we're not always going to focus on everybody in the chat room But tonight, you know, it's the first shot We got to make sure everything's working right
52:50
And that you're able to hear us and so on and so forth So anyways, you have a question you'd like to ask?
52:57
Yeah, I'd like to know where all of these doctrines That the Roman Catholic Church has come up with Like the doctrine of purgatory, the
53:04
Marian doctrines Some of the other things that they claim that are in Scripture but are not
53:11
And, you know, they always like to argue with us about, you know, Sola Scriptura, how it's not in there
53:17
And we had to have an infallible interpreter and things like that But I'd like to know, when did these doctrines come out in the
53:23
Church? And similarly, where did the Reformers Where did their source of their doctrines come from?
53:31
Right, well, you know, one of the important things to remember about that Is that there are in Protestant books and pamphlets that float about A lot of, well, how do
53:44
I put it? Charts, tables I can hear myself in the background, you might want to turn that down Charts and tables and things like that That say, well, this doctrine came into existence at such and such a time
53:56
And this one came into existence at such and such a time The problem is, most of those are normally in reference to When something was dogmatically defined
54:06
For example, transubstantiation becomes dogmatically defined In 1215 at the Fourth Lateran Council Well, that's not when the doctrine first appeared
54:14
I mean, you don't have a council meeting going Hey, we're going to come up with a whole new doctrine And poof, there it is So history tells us that all these things developed over time
54:24
And generally, they are the result of the confluence The coming together of a number of different streams of thought
54:34
Frequently flowing from a statement by a preceding person Maybe literally hundreds or even a thousand years earlier
54:42
Who never dreamed that his statement would give rise to something One of the examples I like to use comes back to Augustine Augustine went to the section in the
54:55
Gospels When he was looking for substantiation for the use of military force To suppress the
55:00
Donatists in North Africa He went back to the statement of Jesus Compel them to come in Well, he was wrong in that But what is more than that He had no idea that his use of that phrase
55:14
Would result in providing the foundation of something As vast and as broad as the Inquisition And yet, that's what happened
55:21
And so many of these doctrines You'll have one person who will provide this stone
55:27
Another person provides that stone And eventually it builds up into an edifice
55:33
And this is what happens when you don't hold the Sola Scriptura When you don't have the guidance and the walls of Scripture You can wander all over every place
55:43
And so some of the dogmas Such as the Marian dogmas are very recent I mean, you cannot find anyone in the early church
55:52
That believed what Rome believes about the bodily assumption of Mary As a dogma It's simply not possible
55:58
And there are more honest historians Who will admit that that's the case And that that's why you have to have the living voice of the church
56:05
And all the rest of the stuff And so really, each of those doctrines If you trace it out
56:11
It's very interesting to see The process that came into forming that doctrine
56:17
Sometimes a very, very different source is coming together to form it The tremendous break that the
56:23
Reformers made Was they said, look We can appreciate the history of the church
56:28
And we don't have to reinvent the wheel We don't have to go back to totally ignoring the history of the church
56:36
Or anything like that But if it's going to be a dogma If it's going to be something that we bind upon the consciences of men
56:44
Then what we have to do is we have to find it In that which is theanustas
56:49
In that which is God -breathed And therefore, there was a renaissance
56:56
In exegetical teaching and preaching People find it very easy to pick upon the
57:02
Reformers And saying, well, they didn't go far enough here They didn't go far enough there But in reality, they went so far
57:08
When you think about the fact That the way they were interpreting scripture Was a way that had not been done in the popular culture
57:15
For over a thousand years I mean, allegorical interpretation of the Old Testament Had been the way in which things were done
57:22
For as far as anyone of their day knew And back into history
57:28
And so, they're pushing the idea of going to scripture And the exegesis of the scripture
57:34
And that this is the only certain foundation Had to have been a work of the Holy Spirit within their hearts
57:40
To give them the confidence And the drive to do that kind of thing And so,
57:45
I think it's a testimony To the work of God in bringing the Reformation about That they did that And we today must honor their memory
57:56
By continuing that work Semper Reformanda, always reforming And that means even examining what they themselves said
58:06
And putting it to the test of scripture That is what we need to be doing
58:12
And that is certainly what we promote Here with Alpha and Omega Ministries So, hopefully that's of some assistance to you
58:19
It sure is All righty Well, thank you very much for your participation You were the third caller
58:25
Oh yes, number three I like that number All righty, sir Thank you very much You're welcome God bless
58:30
Bye -bye 5 -5 -0 Why do I do that? Did the other one start at 5 -5 -0? No, it didn't
58:36
It had an... Whatever 8 -6 -6 -5 -5 -0 -39 -15 Yes, mentor,
58:41
I used the term edifice And no, I will not try to find a way to work Silly Brit into something that I'm saying
58:48
Even though I like the phrase Silly Brit And Silly Brit is very descriptive of Colin But aside from that We have other people listening
58:56
And they, you know, just maybe or not In the chat room right now Although there are 22 living people and two bots
59:03
Actually, 21 living people, two bots, and a British person In the chat room right now Right now
59:09
I'm gonna hear about that one I'm just waiting for the lag to go by So I can see the response
59:15
Anyways, let's go to Brando Hi, Brando Hey, what's going on, man? Hey, man, you sound good All right
59:22
What kind of a connection do you have? Oh, man, I've got a modem connection I don't get nothing out here
59:30
It's pathetic But you are able to hear at least some of what we're saying You know, I think you knew that And I think that you're saying that just to...
59:37
I'll kind of, you know, put weight on that Honestly, no, no, no Honestly, I didn't Because I really am wondering
59:42
What kind of connections people have And obviously on this first run What we're trying to do is we're trying to figure out
59:49
Well, how do we... How is this working? Are people able to hear it? So on and so forth And the amazing thing is to me
59:56
That our signal is getting into Utah Yeah, well, you know, at first it wasn't At first it was saying you didn't have enough bandwidth
01:00:03
And that's, of course, when I'm not sure if his real name said that cable's nice Yes, yes,
01:00:11
C777 who just got off the phone But what I had to do was... I'm so used to...
01:00:18
With Napster, I keep my connection rate on a 14 .4 So nobody bugs me trying to get my stuff
01:00:25
And I had the same thing going with RealPlayer I had to set it up higher I told my computer that I've got a 10 megabit
01:00:31
LAN connection So you're lying to your software is what you're doing Yeah, but it seemed to work
01:00:36
I'm listening to the show Yeah, you know Enjoying it Probably has something to do with Microsoft, people We know we can't trust them
01:00:42
So what was your question for the day? I had a question about Cyprian And I had it earlier
01:00:48
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I remember that And it was presented by Scott Butler in the papacy debate
01:00:54
The two verse two And it's from epistle 54 And you've said over and over in the programs in different debates
01:01:03
That Cyprian believed that he was a minority believer
01:01:08
That Peter was, in fact, the rock of Napster 1618 Except he believed that each bishop held the chair of Peter over their city
01:01:20
But he presented this quote And it doesn't really cause much discontent to me
01:01:25
I just wanted to know what you thought of it and how you interpreted it It's from epistle 54
01:01:30
And it says, moreover, they still dare Having a false bishop having been appointed for them by heretics
01:01:37
To set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profound persons To the throne of Peter and to the chief church
01:01:44
And Butler said it was principal church Whence priestly unity takes its source
01:01:50
And not to consider that these were the Romans Whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle To whom faithlessness could have no access
01:01:57
Right, context, context, context That is the context of Cyprian's comments there
01:02:02
Is the novationist schism in Rome He specifically had to step in and assist the bishop of Rome Before Stephen with the novation schism
01:02:13
And so he's specifically referring to the fact that there had been There was in essence in that day two churches in Rome And Cyprian found that to be an absolute scandal
01:02:22
That there would be a schism there in the church of Rome And so he's writing in that context
01:02:27
Referring to the fact that those in Rome can only have one church And that that church would be the church that has the bishop of Rome as its bishop
01:02:37
When you ask the question, all right, does that mean That he believed that only the bishop of Rome holds that chair
01:02:44
The answer clearly, given everything he wrote, was no And secondly, you say, well, it certainly sounds like it from this
01:02:50
Yeah, he's talking to people who have divided from that particular church When you ask, does he say the same thing about any other church
01:02:57
The answer is no So it's, see, the sad thing is And I think that there are some
01:03:03
Roman Catholic apologists Who just don't know, okay
01:03:08
They've read this in This Rock magazine They've read it in Envoy Scott Hahn said it, so it must be gospel truth
01:03:16
And as a result, they just don't know
01:03:21
They don't read the early church fathers They've never read any of Cyprian beyond that They don't know anything else he ever wrote or what he did
01:03:27
Right, the Peter syndrome Exactly, and so they will grab hold of anything
01:03:34
No matter how silly it really is when you think about it But I think there are others who do know
01:03:39
Who are simply dishonest with the early church fathers And I could name some names there
01:03:44
But probably shouldn't do that Because we are going to archive this and put it on the web So anyways, it's just simply not taking the full context
01:03:54
Of what was going on in the early church into account And since there is almost no one
01:03:59
Whether Roman Catholic or Protestant Who knows that context, they can get away with it Who's going to call them on it?
01:04:06
It's sort of like when the Watchtower Society Grossly misrepresented Ignatius And said he never taught the deity of Christ and stuff like that But you know, you have an article on that, don't you?
01:04:16
Right, yeah Right Historical honesty in the Watchtower Exactly How many Christians though How many
01:04:23
Jehovah's Witnesses who ever read the article Or how many Christians at the door Could even put Ignatius in the right century
01:04:28
So these groups can get away with that kind of thing And there is a cumulative effect over time
01:04:37
Of rolling this falsehood out there That creates all sorts of problems
01:04:42
And it's very difficult to deal with it It's very difficult to deal with it in a short period of time, for example Right, sure, I think it's a long span of history
01:04:48
And I think the longer the span goes The more time you have to make things up Misconstrue them
01:04:55
Yep, so there's the answer Context, context, context Context, context, context
01:05:00
I'll keep that in mind All right, thanks a lot, man Thanks Stay warm up there All right, bye -bye 866 -550 -3915
01:05:12
I didn't know there was a Silly Brit scale I've just been asked a question I don't know how to answer that I haven't developed the
01:05:18
Silly Brit scale quite yet But we do have... Hmm, I'm going to scroll back here Andrew from Pittsburgh Andrew, are you with us?
01:05:28
Yes From Pittsburgh? Wow From Pittsburgh What's up? This is Steven D. James Hey, how you doing?
01:05:33
Hey, not half bad Good Thanks for... Did I browbeat you into calling too? Absolutely not
01:05:39
Good, good, good I feel much better now I've been dying to call in and ask some questions, you know
01:05:44
Not much able to do that on Saturdays, huh? No, not particularly Okay Family stuff, you know
01:05:52
I understand So what's up? When I was calling in, when I got busy, I tried to get back online
01:05:58
But then my ISP started acting wonky So I just kept hitting the redial It started acting what?
01:06:03
Wonky Wonky Wonky You know, I'm not really sure that we want to let that word get out of the channel
01:06:11
Oh But now it is It's too long Sorry about that In fact, you may be sued now By someone whose name is...
01:06:19
I'm in the room right now Because he went to watch football anyway Anyhow Yes, go ahead
01:06:25
Nice website, by the way, too And the graphics are incredible, aren't they? Absolutely Hey, I appreciate your ministry
01:06:33
And I applaud the folks in the channel and everything For helping me out when I first came on And becoming into Reformed theology
01:06:45
And, you know, upon the studies that I've been doing and everything And the discussions that I've had with people that object to it
01:06:51
The thing that seemed to pop up the most And I was wondering if you could help me out On finding an efficient and effective way
01:06:58
And rebutting people that say Where the logical conclusion is that God ends up being the author of sin
01:07:04
And also without free will, man is just a puppet Right Well, you know, we've tried to discuss that a little bit in the past In channel
01:07:14
It is a little bit hard to do on IRC But just recently And I don't remember if it was... I don't think it was you
01:07:19
Someone was basically quoting someone from another channel And they were saying, well, look
01:07:25
If God is sovereign over all things That makes him the author of sin And it makes man a mere puppet
01:07:32
And I asked them some basic questions of this particular individual And that is
01:07:38
Does this individual differentiate between God's sovereignty The action of the will of man
01:07:45
Does he differentiate between a man doing what he desires And being forced to do something against his will
01:07:53
And unfortunately, the individual really didn't get into any of that But fundamentally,
01:07:58
I think that Something that was said at our own church And I wasn't the one who said it Really helps with this particular issue
01:08:06
And that is God does not call us to live in light of his eternal decree Because we do not have knowledge of it
01:08:14
That is We are not held accountable for knowing the eternal decree of God And acting in accordance with it
01:08:22
We are only held accountable for following the desires of our hearts Knowing what's right and wrong
01:08:29
And then going against what we know is right and wrong And as such, I have a little...
01:08:35
I don't know what you... I called it the eternity box Do you know I still have the eternity box? Yeah, I still got the eternity box
01:08:42
I was telling someone in the office No, I didn't have the light bulb That was the eternity box It's the eternity box where I pull the little thing out
01:08:48
Time and it reflects... Well, anyways When you look at the box from the top I have a line
01:08:54
Sort of a line that meanders round about on the top And that's God's perspective
01:09:00
That is the course of time And from God's perspective, this is a part of his decree
01:09:05
He knows it perfectly He doesn't simply know it by taking impassive knowledge It's the result of his decree
01:09:11
But then if you turn... It's a big box It's about... I don't know, what about a foot square, I'd say If you turn it 90 degrees in essence
01:09:21
I have a... How do I describe it? Something I can pull out that begins to reveal through a mirror
01:09:30
That's at a 45 degree angle inside the box And you're now looking at the box And there's a glass side
01:09:36
And when you pull the thing out It slowly, by reflecting, it begins to reveal that line that is up above And this represents our viewpoint within time
01:09:47
We can only see the past and the present We cannot see the future And so we are only held accountable for what we can see from that direction
01:09:56
Whereas God's perspective in eternity is very different than our own And really, when someone says
01:10:03
Well, you know, that makes God the author of evil I ask them So your perspective is that God could not decree the existence of evil
01:10:12
Without forcing someone to commit evil Is that what you're saying? And then take them to passages like Acts 4, 27, and 28
01:10:21
Where the actions of Herod and Pontius Pilate Are clearly what
01:10:27
God predestined to occur But knowing Herod and Pontius Pilate We know that that's exactly what they wanted to do
01:10:35
But Herod, because he was just a filthy old guy And Pilate, because he was a weasel
01:10:40
He was finding a way out So we see very clearly there The sovereignty of God in decreeing these things
01:10:48
And then we see that the fact that these men wanted to do what they did And we are only held accountable in the one realm, not in the other
01:10:55
Because we don't exist in the other We don't exist in that eternal realm to be held accountable there Now the idea of a puppet
01:11:02
I really rebel against that one Because Christ did not die for puppets
01:11:08
And in essence, what they're saying is Either I'm a puppet or God will be my puppet
01:11:14
I mean, if you're going to put the two extremes out there In essence, they're saying, look If I want to have my free will, then
01:11:21
God can't have his And I like the way R .C. Sproul put it God is free, I am free
01:11:26
God is more free than I am When my freedom runs into God's freedom, I lose And that is, again,
01:11:32
I act upon my contingency If we're going to use that term My liberty,
01:11:38
I act upon the desires of my heart And there is a difference between that And in fact, there's a specific word that is used here
01:11:48
And I unfortunately don't have the materials right in front of me To give you the nice Latin But boy, all of a sudden you just became very loud
01:11:54
I'm not sure exactly what that was But anyways, there is a difference between the idea of An arbitrary liberty that is absolutely beyond the sovereign decree of God And then that liberty that is a part of our doing
01:12:08
What our nature's demand that we do I'm sorry, that we do what our wills choose
01:12:14
On the basis of what our heart presents to our wills as our desires And that's one of the differences between the unregenerate man and the regenerate man
01:12:22
Is that our nature presents to us both evil and good desires
01:12:28
Whereas the unregenerate man does not have that source of desires For honoring
01:12:33
God and loving God and so on and so forth So there's complex answers in people like Turretin or Jonathan Edwards And then there's more understandable answers in an
01:12:45
R .C. Sproul Or hopefully in my little eternity box or whatever But in reality, my experience really is that There is a fundamental part of our heart
01:13:01
That is still very much opposed to recognizing who
01:13:09
God is Romans chapter 1 tells us that part of the very nature of sin Is to twist the creator -creation distinction
01:13:19
We want to be upon the throne We want God to be under our finger And that is really,
01:13:25
I think, the primary issue When it comes to this particular subject
01:13:30
And that is that it's not so much that we can't look at scripture And read
01:13:36
Isaiah chapter 10 carefully And see that, you know what? There is no way that what happens with the
01:13:42
Assyrians here Does not clearly teach that God both decreed their destruction of Israel And then held them accountable for it and destroyed them for it
01:13:51
I mean, it's right there When I read that in the Potter's Freedom I was just completely...
01:13:57
I had never read that before And it was just astounding to read that Oh, it's so clear! I've never seen a response to it
01:14:03
I've never seen an answer to it It is just so sparkling
01:14:08
But unfortunately, you know, reading Isaiah Normally it's in Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 7 or Isaiah 9 10 gets sort of skipped over But it's there
01:14:18
It's there in the life of Joseph It's there in Job It's there in the life of Jesus Over and over and over again
01:14:24
But we have an inveterate desire to rebel against it And that really is, I think, what's there
01:14:30
The thing I always like to bring up in the instance of Whenever people start touting their free will and everything
01:14:36
I said, well, the Bible talks about how we're shaped as to how
01:14:41
God wants us And I said, I'd rather be shaped by Him than by myself Oh, no kidding You know? No kidding
01:14:46
I mean, there's so many people who seem to feel that we could do better than God has done in putting us together
01:14:55
And I'm looking for a passage here Let me see here
01:15:02
Oops My phone's not supposed to be ringing during this But anyways Exodus 411
01:15:09
The Lord said to him, Who has a mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf or seeing or blind?
01:15:14
Is it not I, the Lord? And I cannot help but think of one of our channel mates
01:15:19
And, you know, I think people who are not in the channel but who are listening to the program must go, What is this channel business?
01:15:26
But, you know, we do have a bit of a family in there We get to know each other And, in fact, we're really hoping that one of our ops is doing all right
01:15:35
Katie got sick a couple days ago And we're really hoping she's doing better But we talk about these things
01:15:44
And we think about one of our regulars Actually, the fellow runs the website that hosts our real audiophiles
01:15:53
And that is Stephanus is his nick or Stephen And a lot of folks are not aware of the fact that Stephen cannot speak
01:16:01
He cannot walk He has cerebral palsy He's limited to a wheelchair He has to be carried everywhere that he goes
01:16:08
I've met him when I was up in Chicago And here's a wonderful godly man A picture of patience
01:16:17
And he can read those passages And it doesn't result in anger
01:16:22
It results in a recognition of God's sovereignty And a recognition that that's what God has decreed for his life
01:16:28
And it really takes grace to accept that It really does So, all righty, sir Thank you very much
01:16:34
Thanks for calling in All righty God bless 866 -550 -3915
01:16:40
You think I'll ever memorize that? I bet I will someday 866 -550 -3915
01:16:48
Oh, am I gonna let this guy on the air? Oh, man
01:16:56
Well, it had to happen eventually And so, now, Rich, be prepared on the dump button Okay?
01:17:02
Be prepared here Because we don't know what's going to happen Because when you let foreigners on the air, you know, you just, it's hard You ready?
01:17:13
Benny, you're ready there in case we need you? You ready? All right Okay, go ahead
01:17:19
Hello? All right Now, I need to lay some ground rules
01:17:26
Okay All right No advertisements for unnamed CDs I'm sorry
01:17:36
Well, now, do you want to be called Colin, CDS, or Cilibrate?
01:17:44
Well, you take your pick I don't mind You don't mind Well, I'll tell you, we've picked on you today, haven't we?
01:17:50
Oh, I think so Yeah, and we've archived it And you didn't even get to hear the first part of it, which is really cool So that's good
01:17:56
I didn't, and I'm told that you spent 10 minutes talking about the evils of bowling
01:18:02
I'm not, you know, I didn't bring that up I didn't bring up the fact that even though it would have been wonderful to have you listening the whole time that you went bowling tonight
01:18:10
But I didn't bring that up Oh, wow So, anyways So, how does it sound on your end? It's sounding very good
01:18:16
Good, good And you don't, you're not on cable at home, are you? No, I'm using my 56k modem
01:18:23
Yeah AOL Yeah, that's good That's good Yeah, I'm impressed I'm very, very impressed
01:18:28
I'm invincible! You're a loony I'm sorry,
01:18:33
I had to do that In fact, I could really, you know, if I hit a certain wave that we have
01:18:39
Would you immediately drop the phone and stand at attention? I might You might? Okay, yeah, well, we won't do that Anyways, well, let's get back to seriousness here
01:18:49
Do you have anything serious or only silly to share with us this evening? Well, I was actually just talking with somebody in the chat room there and Yes, I noticed something going by while I was talking with Andrew Yes, and somebody from the
01:19:04
Raleigh, North Carolina area where we are Where we are planting a Reformed Baptist church at the moment And that's not a plug
01:19:10
But, you know, if you want to go to our website, www .gracereformedbaptist .org You're more than welcome We can edit that out when we archive it
01:19:18
Thank you But they raised a question, which I thought was a good one And since Sky Man's not in the chat room,
01:19:26
I think you're safe to address it And what would you say to somebody who is vacillating between Presbyterianism and being a
01:19:35
Reformed Baptist? And I know we're good friends with our Presbyterian brothers But as a
01:19:41
Reformed Baptist yourself, if you were to try to persuade them to join, say, Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, what would you say to them?
01:19:48
Oh my, well, you know, it's interesting Over the past couple of weeks, we've had four different people that we've sent the debate tapes that we did on paedo -baptism a few years ago
01:20:02
And a sermon that I delivered at Faith Reformed Baptist Church on Long Island called
01:20:08
Reformed and Baptist And so that is an important issue
01:20:16
And I think it should be one that we go ahead and address But we do so in such a way that those who do know us know that many of my closest friends are
01:20:28
Presbyterians And this is an issue that we have to examine In fact, as I was saying earlier, if we follow in the line of the
01:20:37
Reformers then Semper Reformanda means that we have to likewise examine what they said and go, hey, you know, is this in line with Scripture?
01:20:51
Fundamentally, I would say to such a person that they need to look at the nature of the
01:20:58
New Covenant as laid out in Hebrews chapters 7 through 10 and the relationship of the
01:21:07
New Covenant to the work of Christ and then ask themselves the question if the sign of the
01:21:13
New Covenant should be given to individuals who may, in point of fact, not ever confess faith in Jesus Christ and ask themselves, is there any basis for believing that the
01:21:26
New Covenant unlike the Old Covenant, would include individuals who do not have saving faith?
01:21:33
I do not believe that Hebrews chapter 8 allows for that I think Hebrews chapter 8 says that all of those in the
01:21:40
New Covenant know God and hence to give the sign of the Covenant to those who we do not have any promise
01:21:47
Now, and I would really, I really have a problem with those who in essence go so far as to say that a
01:21:55
Covenant child has this absolute promise of salvation You know, there are some that I strongly object to There are some quotes that I read in the sermon that I gave on that particular subject that are downright frightening, quite honestly because they in essence turn
01:22:13
Covenant children into Pelagians into new Adams that do not have a sin nature
01:22:19
They are not truly, totally depraved And I find that very, very disturbing
01:22:26
But I'm referring to that Presbyterianism that does not believe that baptism saves that there are quote -unquote
01:22:32
Covenant children who will never enter into eternal life And for those individuals I would say
01:22:38
I think if you look at the fact that the New Covenant is in the blood of Jesus Christ and that he saves all those who are in the
01:22:44
New Covenant that if they're truly Reformed, that that introduces a fundamental contradiction and that the only way out of it is not exegetical and that if you have to take a non -exegetical way out, bingo
01:22:58
There you've got your problem at least for someone who truly believes in Sola Scriptura Yeah, I find it interesting that in Roman Catholicism, they infant -baptize as well, don't they?
01:23:08
For a different reason For a different reason, but as you say, there are some Presbyterians, as you pointed out, that would perhaps maybe come close
01:23:17
Some, sadly some do, and others in liturgical churches sometimes do get that close and that is a problem
01:23:24
But we do need to differentiate, I think, very clearly between what they believe in regards to the nature of baptism, at least officially, and what
01:23:34
Rome teaches But I would say that it came into the Reformed tradition primarily because of the historical situation at the time of the
01:23:42
Reformation, not for exegetical reasons I really do believe that Believe it or not, we're running out of time, man
01:23:48
Oh, am I? Yeah, we're at 1 .30, so thank you very much for listening this evening And, by the way, what did you bowl?
01:23:56
Oh, I did really badly I'm not even going to say Well, I'm sorry, but since you were not in the channel for the beginning and CSC's wife had to be the first one to call in that means you do have to announce exactly what you bowled this evening
01:24:10
You know, I probably couldn't even tell you, but I know that I did a couple of gutters A couple of gutters?
01:24:16
Yes Gutters Gutters Oh, jolly good That's right That's right Okay, well, thank you very much,
01:24:23
Colin, for calling in You're welcome, James All right, bye -bye Bye Well, folks, that's going to pretty much get us close to wrapping things up here
01:24:31
I'm looking for something on my system right now You can sort of tell I'm stretching that out But I really, really appreciate those of you who were in the channel who did call in this evening, especially those of you who were brave enough to do so right at the beginning
01:24:46
Oh, hi, Larry, how you doing? And I do appreciate the fact that you all were listening this evening
01:24:53
And what I'm going to do here, Rich, is I'm going to have a little bit something in the background here So you might want to just sort of,
01:25:01
I don't know, work it out or whatever when we do it You know what? Oh, I can't find it Oh, bummer
01:25:07
Oh, well, I can't do that I was going to do it I was going to play some Phil Keggy in the background in honor of Silly Bridge But I couldn't bring it up on my system here fast enough
01:25:20
So that's just not going to work So anyways, we are out of time for the evening Thank you very much for being with us today
01:25:27
As I understand it, the next time we get together, we'll be getting together on a Saturday live
01:25:32
I believe it'll be December 9th And so make sure to mark that down and be with us then here on The Dividing Line Box 37106,
01:25:57
Phoenix, Arizona, 85069 You can also find us on the World Wide Web at aomin .org
01:26:02
That's A -O -M -I -N .O -R -G Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks