March 30, 2017 Show with David Engelsma on “The 16th Century Reformation of the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who

are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

30th day of March 2017.

And in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And hello once again.

And I'm so delighted to have back on the program Professor David J. Engelsma

for a very appropriate discussion since this year marks the 500th

anniversary of the 16th century Protestant Reformation.

Professor David J. Engelsma has agreed to be on the program once again to discuss his book, The

16th Century Reformation of the Church, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.

And Professor Engelsma is an author, he was professor of

dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville,

Michigan and is now emeritus professor since the Synod of 2008.

He was the editor of the Standard Bearer magazine from 1988 to

2002 and he is a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and

throughout the British Isles on behalf of the British Reformed Fellowship which is devoted to

the spread and defense of the Reformed faith and the United Kingdom.

And as I said we are discussing The 16th Century Reformation of the Church and it's my honor and privilege

to welcome.

You back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Professor David J. Engelsma.

On your program again.

Yes and I.

Think I should add that the denomination that Professor Engelsma is a part

of, the Protestant Reformed Church and its seminary run a

program called the Reformed Witness Hour which is one of the oldest if

not the oldest radio broadcasts that has been

continually running on the air and I believe it's

nearly 75 years now that the Reformed Witness Hour has been on the air which as I said is

either one of the oldest or perhaps even the very oldest continually running radio program

representing the evangelical Christian faith and specifically this broadcast is spreading

the gospel of sovereign grace otherwise known as Reformed Theology.

And I am honored that the Reformed Witness Hour happens to be one of my clients

where I have placed them on WLIE 540 AM radio in New York where

they can be heard every Sunday at 8 a .m. and I hope that

eventually we get that program on many more stations where it is not currently airing but

and by the way you could go to the website of the Reformed Witness Hour

and listen to those programs at your leisure at reformedwitnesshour .org,

reformedwitnesshour .org if you happen to live anywhere in the New York tri -state area you can hear that

program on 540 AM on the dial on Sunday mornings at 8

and you can also hear it live streamed at

wlie540am .com Sunday mornings at 8.

But uh professor Engelsma there have been other books written about

the 16th century protestant reformation and in fact there have been many books written about

the 16th century reformation of the church.

Why did you feel a need to add another book to the list of many.

Already in

existence to

mind presentation reformation and of all of the issues

the doctrine of scripture

informing.

And you

are the

editor

of

this

book.

There are

a

number

of.

Contributors from the protestant reformed churches in america and also the evangelical presbyterian

church of australia.

How many people do you have uh writing or contributing to this book.

You're.

Right i did not write the entire book i have

a number of

chap and let

me uh give our

listeners.

Our email address if they'd like to join us on the air with a question of their own.

Uh the email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the usa

and uh if you're going to remain anonymous please only do so.

If you are asking about a personal or private matter.

Perhaps you're asking a question because you disagree with your own pastor for instance uh

theologically or doctrinally or something.

Uh that's the only thing i can really think of on a subject like this.

Why you would be remaining anonymous.

Or perhaps your your own spouse or something you're disagreeing with.

Because this kind of subject wouldn't lend itself normally to an anonymous question.

But if if it's not an if it's not a private matter then please at least give us your first name

city and state and country of residence.

And we already have uh ronald in eastern suffolk county long island.

Who has a question for you.

I usually don't take questions this fast but i think it kind of sets the stage help sets the stage for the

rest of the interview.

Uh he asks you title this book.

The 16th century reformation of the church.

How many major reformations were there.

And what years did they occur.

The reformations have there been.

What in new testament history.

Uh i'm assuming that's what he means.

Because we we typically refer to the protestant reformation as specifically the 16th

century reformation.

And there were other reformations that occurred in england and in holland and so on.

So i'm assuming that's what.

He's asking about how many.

Uh at the time of the 16th century reformation of the church

the

reformation

movement

since

that.

Well

thank

you

ronald.

Uh

in

eastern

suffolk

county

long.

Island new york.

You are getting a free copy of the 16th century reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of

truth edited by professor david j engelsma.

So please make sure we have your full mailing address so that that can be shipped out to you.

Uh compliments of our friends at the reformed free publishing publishing association and

also compliments of cumberland valley bible book service will be shipping it out to you.

Cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service dot com is their website

cv bbs .com.

So keep your eye open for a package from cv bbs .com.

And we thank the reform free publishing association and also cv bbs .com for enabling

us to give away books at no charge to us or our listeners.

And the 16th century specifically.

The reformation that occurred in the 16th century was primarily in germany and

switzerland and am i correct to say that the primary figures although there were others

were martin luther and john calvin and ulrich zingley.

Weren't they the three primary characters that we think of when we refer.

To the

16th century

reformation.

I think you're

right.

Oh yes he studied under

calvin in this

book.

You primarily or perhaps even exclusively deal with the lives of martin luther and john calvin.

Uh in the section that deals with the specific figures.

Am i right.

That's correct i might say.

Something about the contents of the book to which you have referred the yes readers might like to know

that

the book

is

divided

into

three

intelligent

on the

contrary

luther are

brighter

even than the

sun

last

things

final

judgment

the

reformation

rather

viewed the

doctrine of

the last things live

and die and the

coming of jesus christ

those are the three main sections of the book.

And uh sorry about the pause of silence i was just saying we were getting a number of uh of

emails already from our listeners who are eager to have their questions asked.

That's promising.

Yes.

And before i go to any of them though uh the uh martin luther was

a very tormented individual before coming to the realization of what the

scriptures actually taught about grace and salvation.

I mean he was a man who was very self -aware of his sin.

But because he had a a false understanding of grace and of salvation the very teachings

that rome taught and still do dogmatically teach are very aberrant and

heretical and foreign to the understanding of salvation that christ

himself had.

And uh the apostles and authors of the of the bible had uh but he

he was involved in self -flagellation.

He was going to confession and and and and speaking to the priest and

pouring out his sins to the priests so long that they were really uh getting

very tired of his very lengthy confessions.

Uh this was a very tormented man.

Wasn't he.

Yes.

Would you bring up the name of martin

luther.

You bring up

a man.

I love conversation

right.

What you say

about other monk practice who

genuflect but

the

more

he worked

is demanding of him.

Now if you

were to

compare

uh luther and

calvin uh

although

luther uh

came

about.

Uh prior to calvin they still had lives that overlapped and

they were contemporaries for a portion of their lives.

Yes uh.

But uh calvin had the benefit of having not only the scriptures but

the shoulders of luther to stand on.

Whereas luther would you say that luther it it.

It took him longer and i'm not saying he completely succeeded at this but it took him

longer to.

Shed the

baggage of rome

than calvin.

Am i

right in

saying

that

that.

Although

really

luther thought that about calvin.

Oh yeah i would have thought the reverse would have

been

true.

Yes.

Well lord supper you're

right.

Okay.

Yes.

And in regard to

that

difference

that they had about the

eucharist.

Or about the lord's supper.

I mean first of all i can still not really understand what lutherans are talking about when they try to describe

uh their understanding of what is taking place there uh that the lord is truly present

in and around the elements or above and around or something like that beneath and around.

But but they they certainly and luther certainly did not believe that there was a uh

perpetuatory sacrifice uh going on there in what the rome calls a mass.

He he did not retain that element of a roman catholic understanding of what is going on did he.

No he repudiated that element of

the

roman

catholic

doctrine.

That's a.

And uh you know olrich zwingli who you do not really focus on in the book.

Uh he had a purely memorial view did he not.

Uh of the of the lord supper.

Although i've heard i've heard from some uh scholars that they disagree

with that description of zwingli.

But uh i've heard for the most part that he had more of a memorialist view that the

lord's supper was a commemoration of the lord's death.

Uh but it was not anything that had greater supernatural significance

than uh you know any other ordinary act of participation and

conduct in the life of the church am i right.

In

intellectual

fashion

kelvin's doctrine

of the lord's supper was

far far richer than that.

Now before we go to the break perhaps i'll ask a question and then you can think about it during the station break and

answer it when we return.

But it seems to me that calvin was much more

consistent with his theology than luther.

And what i mean by that is that for instance the great debate that luther

had with erasmus on the bondage of the will you would think that he if he was

consistent logically consistent with that he would have come to all of the other conclusions

that calvin came to from the scriptures.

And also the the idea of baptismal regeneration that luther

held to which lutherans still hold to today seems to be totally inconsistent with one of luther's

own watchwords or pillars of the reformation sola fide that we are justified

by faith alone.

But if you could comment on what i said after we return from the break and then we'll go to some listener

questions as well.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own we would love to hear from you.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with professor david j engelsma.

One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day.

So i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com for all

your battery needs at batterydepot .com they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man.

In other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable.

Ordering from batterydepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you

can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to batterydepot

.com next day shipping.

Available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768 that's 866

-403 -3768.

Or go to batterydepot .com.

That's batterydepot .com.

Charles headens perjan.

Once said give yourself unto.

Reading the man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following christ.

Long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above.

For details call long island youth for

christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or

visit liyfc .org that's

liyfc .org.

Iron sharpens.

Iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round.

Bible conference and retreat center.

Nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to

400.

For generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars.

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word.

An additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples

singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries.

90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from

wilmington and easily accessible.

Scores of notable christian groups frequently planned conferences at harvey cedars like the

navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of

confessing evangelicals.

Find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689.

Harvey cedars where.

Christ finds people and changes lives.

Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into.

A visit to the pastor's study.

Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com we

bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with

your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's.

Study because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is professor david j engelsma

and we are discussing his book the 16th century reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of

truth.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com and we do have a number of people

already waiting and i promise i'll get to you very soon and hopefully get to all of you before the end of the program.

But before the break i asked you your thoughts on whether or not i was correct in my

assessment that when you compare luther to calvin it seems that that

calvin was much more consistent logically consistent in his theology from the cal from the

institutes of christian religion.

And of course i know that the five points of calvinism as they are formally

known today in that uh formulated uh way are are a later

invention of followers of calvin or the heirs of the reformation a century

or so later but the uh the essence of those things uh appear to be present in

the institutes and seem to be very logically consistent whereas luther held to things that seem to

be at odds with each other like for instance he is known for the the watchword or

the pillar or the battle cry of the reformation sola fide that we are justified by faith alone

and yet he believed in baptismal regeneration which seems to militate against that.

If you could give me your own thoughts on that we've been.

Talking

about

the

sacramental

one

thing amen

and

reverend

buzz.

Yes i'm

curious

about

a

couple

things.

Um how much communication was there actually between uh luther and

calvin and i'm just wondering if you know how much of an influence calvin did have on luther and uh if

calvin.

Perhaps

even

quoted

luther at

all

but they

did.

Now you

mentioned

malankton

is it

true.

That malankton.

I have heard.

That malankton uh unfortunately and i say this as a calvinist

uh that he unfortunately brought the heirs of of the

reformation uh at least luther's branch of it closer back to rome's

understanding of the will of man closer to erasmus's view and which is why

today the lutheran church in many ways is far more arminian.

I know that arminius was a century after both luther and malankton but but today

it seems that the the understanding.

Of salvation is far more arminian uh other than the sacraments.

Yes you reckon points there that i

would

like to

address and

deny it.

No.

I think i

should

go to

some

of our

lister

questions

and i.

And we uh unconscious may i say one thing more.

Yeah sure.

I forget i was going to make.

Another

point a

very well

-known and highly

regarded

word.

Fundamental.

Wow that's good.

To know uh i don't know if he speaks english but i'd love to have him on the program.

Did.

You say he's a living scholar he's dead so you'll have a hard time getting.

I don't want to sit in that one.

Um well we have a listener in uh clinton township michigan and we may have

stolen a lot of the thunder of his question but perhaps you could still comment on it.

Jeff and clinton township michigan says.

Does dr engels not have any thoughts regarding the lutheran church missouri synod denomination.

And if they are faithful today to the reformed doctrines and principles of the 16th century.

Very good question.

And i believe that you probably answered a lot of it and what you just said.

But there may be things specifically about the um lcms as it's

known the lutheran church missouri synod uh and i know that that they're not really

entirely monolithic.

You may have different differences among lutheran pastors in that denomination to some level.

Although they are pretty uh they're a pretty uh pretty tightly run ship i believe.

But if you could.

Comment.

As

far as

i

know

the

mail

ordination

exclusively.

Yes

but i

think

they

weeks

years.

Ago i would say it was probably in the 1990s i was at a worship

service at a missouri synod lutheran congregation and there was a guest speaker there that day

who's now in heaven but it was the reverend fred shrink line uh

very highly respected conservative missouri synod lutheran pastor on long island uh

uh who was respected by men of varying denominations from a conservative and

evangelical bent.

And uh i heard uh pastor trankline in a sermon that he gave which was

titled would luther be a lutheran today.

He concluded his message by saying sadly no.

And this was a lutheran pastor who said that um but anyway a

very good uh question.

Jeff.

Um and um let me think there was something else i was going to say about jeff's question

and i can't remember it right now but thank you very much jeff.

And if you'd like to give me your full mailing address you are going to get a free copy of the book

that we have been addressing the 16th century reformation of the church rightly dividing the

word of truth by our guest or edited by our guest professor david j engelsma.

Compliments of our friends over at the reform free publishing

association and also compliments of our friends at cumberland valley bible book service

cv bbs cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service dot com

who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to iron sharpens iron.

And we thank uh you for contributing to the program and keep praying for and contributing to iron

sharpens iron radio with your excellent questions.

Uh we have.

Um let's see.

We have another question from a listener we have joe in

slovenia who says thanks so much for having dr david address

our ongoing reformation.

I noticed that he wrote and this is in quotes from you uh professor engelsma it was

the most important act of god upon the church for good from the death of the apostles to the

present time.

I've been struck recently by hearing lots of different pastors and preachers who hold too

few if any of the tenets of reformation theology such as at ihop

the ethic that he's referring to the international house of prayer not the pancake chain

international house of prayer in bethel redding california etc who are laying claim to the

reformation and its historical leaders and using loose association with them to provide cover

for and bolster their errant teachings.

What do you make of this phenomenon of people who don't hold to reformation theology but want to

jump on the bandwagon because it seems to give them legitimacy.

Thank you for keeping us focused on reformation.

I think

that

question

points.

We

have

to

go

to a

break

right

now

and

we'll

pick

up

right

where.

We left off.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

And there still are a number of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we'll get to you as soon as we can.

Don't go away we'll be right back.

With professor david j engelsma.

Hi.

I'm chris arnzen host of iron sharpens.

Iron radio.

Here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian

perspective.

Try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of rc sproles book

relationship between church and state.

I rely on world because i trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio

and the fully shareable content of world digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your world trial and dr sproles book.

All free no obligation with no credit card required.

Visit world news group at wng .org.

Forward slash.

Iron sharpens today

every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

coffee shops and local hangouts.

Long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following christ.

Long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to

youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above.

For details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385

-8333 that's 631 -385

-8333 or visit liyfc .org

that's liyfc .org.

Iron sharpens iron.

Welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania.

Solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your

expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath

remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and

more.

For a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981

717 -697 -1981 or visit

solid rock remodeling .com.

That's solid rock remodeling .com.

Solid rock remodeling.

Bringing new life to your home.

Thriving financial is not.

Your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere

institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me mike gallagher financial consultant

at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about

the thriving difference.

Lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story.

Just survive.

Chef exclusive catering is in south central pennsylvania.

Chef exclusives goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate.

Chef danian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned johnson and wales university with a degree in

culinary arts and applied science.

Chef exclusive catering's event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for

small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest

expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since.

Chef exclusive catered by most recent iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon.

For details call 717 -388 -3000 that's 717

-388 -3000 or visit chef exclusive .com.

That's chef exclusive .com

paul wrote to the church at galatia.

For am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man.

If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ.

Hi.

I'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church.

We are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in nofolk massachusetts.

We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either.

We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and

love.

If you live near nofolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528

-5750 or go to our website to email us.

Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace.

You can find us at providence baptist church ma .org that's providence baptist church ma .org

or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence baptist church is.

Delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's.

Study because everyone needs a pastor.

Tired of bop store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.

Well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631

-929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc

.us that's wrbc .us.

I'm james white of alpha omega ministries.

The new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible

translation.

The nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for.

The nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics

relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles.

Find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

Whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the nasb for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Welcome back this.

Is chris arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is professor david j

engelsma.

We are discussing the book that he edited the 16th century reformation of the church

rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

And i forgot to tell joe in slovenia that he has also won a free copy of this book.

Compliments of our friends at the reform free publishing association and also our friends at cumberland

valley bible book service.

That's cv bbs .com.

Cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service .com.

And you should be getting that very shortly in the mail.

Actually your daughter in america will be getting that in the mail.

We thank you for providing a mailing address in georgia where our friends at cumberland valley bible

book service can much more affordably ship that book to you free of charge.

And um reverend buzz my co -host had something to say.

Well i i.

Appreciate where you were going before talking about uh we should not lay claim to the

reformation without holding to the doctrines of the reformation and uh for the sake of some of

our listeners who may come from different theological backgrounds uh you you mentioned one of those

doctrines you said sola fide.

But could you just briefly uh talk about what some of those doctrines are that you are referring to so they

understand what we mean by the doctrines of the reformation.

Yes when

by doctrines

being

doctrinal

amen.

It's a

great way

of

putting it

now the

great

doctrines

preaching and

every

christian.

Now not

about

luther's

action

but

i'm

talking

about

the action upon his bride and body by jesus

christ.

Now roman

catholics uh

typically

give a false.

Caricature of the reformation and slander the reformers by

saying that they were introducing into the church the the

new inventions of men.

They were novel ideas.

But this is not true at all.

We're not the reformers not only obviously trying to bring the church first

and foremost back to the scripture.

But these teachings were not even necessarily uh new

understandings of the scripture.

Or these were not new discoveries through uh exegetical uh

searching of the of the bible.

Many of these things were already taught by the church fathers that the roman catholic church.

Claimed were their own.

Am i not right on that.

That's correct.

If one would read one of the great i would

find that.

Calvin.

Yes.

And uh

although

the church

fathers

themselves

they

were

not

monolithic.

They didn't all agree lockstep on everything but uh uh much

in um in opposition to the claim of the church of rome they very often try to make it

seem that the fathers were uniformly in agreement with their uh

doctrines that they proclaim dogmatically a trend.

But that's really absurd because many of those things never existed for the first centuries of the church like the

like the perpetuatory sacrifice of the mass like the sacrament of penance and

the adoration of mary.

And uh there are so many things that the roman catholic church later developed as

they became more and more heretical uh that were were totally foreign to the understanding of

the church fathers.

Or at least uh many of them.

And and of course they were later inventions.

Argument amen.

And uh

by the way

before i forget i want

to uh let

our

listeners

know that

the.

Quote that our lister in slovenia was citing by our

guest professor david j engelsma was from a pamphlet called the reformation and

the 20th century the reformation and 20th century protestantism and i have

the link for that.

If anybody listening would like me to email that to you.

I can email you the the link.

Uh at the protestant reform church's denominational website uh there's a

specific link for the reformation and the and 20th century protestantism by our guest david j engelsma

that you can have if you just uh email me a request for it.

Um we have uh chris in runnels iowa who says.

I have noticed from reading some of the reformers that not only were they calling for theological reform

but moral reform of the roman catholic church.

To what degree was the moral aspect a part of the reformation or was it merely an evidence

used to show a need for theological reform.

Thank you.

That's chris from runnels iowa.

In response to that question morally

yeah

luther

was shocked

wasn't he

when he

went on

a pilgrimage.

To rome.

When he was still an augustinian monk he went to on a pilgrimage to rome and was shocked that the frequency

of priests visiting prostitutes and all kinds of things that he was totally

astonished about the wickedness that seemed to have overrun the church.

That's correct.

He was he.

Noticed

that

firsthand

at the

center

of for

morals

that

was

not

the

price

of

god

to hear

the blessed gospel of yes

just like many christians today

wrongly put an emphasis on.

How politics will transform a nation.

But the gospel when people are transformed inwardly by the sovereign

grace of god that will be the real thing that brings about great moral

reform and even political reform as a fruit.

Will or not i mean people put the the cart before.

The horse

often even christians.

That's correct.

And what kind of a

business employees.

Money he makes which is legitimate money he makes in the promotion

of the kingdom of god.

And an important area with

regard to before i go

to a

question

from murray and

kinross

scotland before

i forget you

mentioned.

Something earlier that i kept wanting to have you follow up on and i kept forgetting to

the issue of double predestination.

There are many armenian christians who caricature that and

and teach that it is something that calvin that never intended it to

convey nor does the bible convey it in the way that they have

twisted it they seem to imply although perhaps not exactly in these words.

But when armenians refer to double predestination the the implication

seems to be that man in his natural state is morally neutral

and that god is actively not only uh creating in

the hearts of his elect godliness and a desire to

follow christ but he is also actively implanting in the hearts of men

evil and rebellion causing them to reject christ when they

otherwise may have come to him.

That is

not

at

all

what

double

predestination

is

about.

Is

it

warm

man.

Reply

us

to.

Yeah

i

think.

That's uh commonly called the terrible decree isn't it.

Yes calvin called it the

and uh we could.

Go to now murray and kinross scotland.

I'll ask his question and you can answer it when we return from our final break which we're going to.

Murray and kinross scotland says.

After centuries of divisions and splits is there a church denomination or group

that still fairly accurately reflects luther's theology today.

And his second part of that question is uh with regard to the doctrine of justification

by faith did luther hold to being declared righteous as

opposed to being made righteous.

Well i think that's where the rome and uh the reformation really divide uh

crucially on that point.

But uh we'll have you answer those questions uh when we return uh from our

final break.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And i would do so very quickly if you intend to send an email with a question because we're running out of time

that's chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Charles heddon spurgeon.

Once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

Tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.

Well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631

-929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc

.us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm james white of alpha.

Omega ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasv is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible

translation the nasv offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasv

is known for.

The nasv is available in many editions like a topical reference bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics

relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles.

Find an nasv that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com whichever edition you choose

trust discover and enjoy the nasb for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's.

Study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie

radio www .wlie540am

.com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs.

A pastor one sure way all

iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

use batterydepot .com for all your battery needs at batterydepot .com.

They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man.

In other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable.

Ordering from batterydepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you

can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries.

Go to batterydepot .com.

Next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties

call 866 -403 -3768 that's 866 -403 -3768

or go to batterydepot .com.

That's batterydepot .com.

Linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in.

Linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and

together.

Hi.

I'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be.

Call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599

-9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org that's linbrookbaptist .org.

Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen and if you just tuned us in for the our guest for the two hours today

is professor david j engelsma.

We are discussing his book the 16th century reformation of the church rightly dividing the word

of truth and we have another half hour of the program to go.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Before buzz has a comment i know that we have to get an answer for murray from kinross

scotland who wants to know after centuries of division and splits is there a church denomination or group that

still fairly accurately reflects luther's theology today.

And he also wants to know whether the doctrine of justification by faith uh that

whether or not luther meant uh that we are being declared righteous or being

made righteous.

You might answer that or is.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Reverend buzz just said something else.

He wanted to bring up all right.

I love the scots.

There's an affinity i think between the dutch and

this john knox.

For that reason also well actually our get our listener in and kinross scotland has informed me in the

past that he's actually a british transplant in scotland.

Well i think scotland has influenced him.

He strikes to the heart of matter first

of

all

denomination

that

i

somehow i saw that coming churches in america.

And on the day that this denomination which may god graciously prevent or

any one of these truths that will be the end of my membership

and will be the day that these churches cease to show the marks of a true church.

And i'm in the

second

place a

declaration.

Declaration and making

is the

difference between the true gospel and the false

gospel and the difference between heaven and hell

when god just

suffering of jesus christ so that

the

justified

he himself is

god's

activity

of making

the sinner

righteous and

that therefore the

wrath of god still rests upon him as an imperfect person.

God after all is perfectly holy and demands perfection of those who are righteous in his

judgment.

And the second thing that results from viewing justification as god's act of making someone righteous is that

you can sign most of the human race even those who are members of the church to the fires of

purgatory perfectly just in this life.

And therefore everyone but a few popes and their even doubtful cases

undergo a purifying process in purgatory.

Reformation did away with purgatory that's not the least of the benefits.

Those who die justified by faith or confidence

that the moment of their death they live with god in heaven.

That's no small matter not only when you're actually dying but in as much

as you know that your death is impending sometime in the future.

So to get back to your question education is the act of god declaring

a sinner a believing sinner to be righteous in jesus christ.

The righteous is not justification but sanctification the work of god's

saving grace that also accompanies justification but that is imperfect in this life and

will be perfected.

Only at the moment of death.

And this is this concept of justification that you're speaking of is called forensic justification is it not.

Yes.

And this has a lot to do with the great exchange as it's called where uh our sins

were imputed to christ on calvary and his righteousness has been imputed to us.

Am i right.

That's correct.

Right.

And uh thank you so much uh murray and scotland.

And i've got a surprise for you murray.

I normally do not mail or have coverland valley bible book services

mail books overseas because of the astronomical costs of doing that but i'm going

to send this out to you myself since you've been such a long time listener of iron sharpens iron radio and

have been contributing many questions.

And it's a small enough book will it.

So it will not be that expensive for me to ship this to you.

I'm going to ship it to you myself uh this copy of uh the book that we have been

addressing by our guest uh edited by our guest professor david j engelsman 16th

century reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of truth.

I'm going to ship that out to you myself so make sure that i have your mailing address and i will get that to

you uh and now my co -host reverend buzz but reverend buzz taylor.

Has a comment.

You know.

Um i'm so glad it finally came up that the book the bondage of the will because i mean that that's like the

staple work of the reformation.

And you were mentioning romans 9.

That is what got me.

Because if if reformation doctrine weren't true then there was certainly no offense that

paul would even think that we would make the accusation that he's not fair.

The fact that in our humanness we come to think of that as unfair is proof that it's true.

And the answer i think is the best test of how seriously we take god at his word.

The answer was who are you to answer back to god.

He didn't even answer the question.

It's like you know there are some questions you don't ask god and that's one of them.

But as far as you were talking about denominations i'm glad you also said that there

are others in addition to your own.

But uh what would you say to somebody who searches the yellow pages for all their worth and they cannot

find a decent reformation church in their area.

Move.

Thank you.

I somehow thought that's what you're going to say and i concur.

And uh move anywhere where there is a solid reform baptist church.

Well now chris i wouldn't go that far.

That's.

I don't know if professor engelsman knew that's what i am but anyway um membership.

In a true church of christ is not optional.

Yes membership in the true church of jesus christ is required and one of my

confessions is the

belgian confession of

faith confession

but if you

we have.

Uh a question from bruce uh.

And uh bruce has not given me uh his city and state.

But uh bruce uh asks uh things that you've already mentioned.

But he but because he says he's tuned in late.

But he did uh ask a question that you didn't i don't think clearly address this

aspect of the relationship with luther and malangton.

Uh he asks did luther's foresee any weaknesses in

malangton.

Now you had said earlier that unfortunately malangton had a negative influence on luther himself.

But did luther want in any way that you know that it's been documented did he want to put

a put a rein on malangton and pull in the reins and try to.

Prevent anything uh disturbing that he foresaw in malangton.

Unfortunately luther did not take malangton

in

hand.

He

regarded

malangton

as a

friend.

Well

thank.

Oh

go ahead.

I'm

sorry.

Unfortunately we were talking about lutheranism.

Well uh bruce.

Uh

thank you

uh for.

Providing your uh your address uh in gardner

massachusetts because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are

discussing that has been edited by our guest professor david j engelsma the

16th century reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of truth.

So thank you very much for your participation in today's program and keep spreading the word in gardeners

massachusetts and beyond.

Um the uh some something that you said uh earlier i

think should probably be kept clarified because uh there are those

listening that i have been accused of uh

because of the fact that i repeat very often that i'm a calvinist on this program uh that uh

people wrongly take my convictions and my love for the

theology that the lord has opened my eyes to.

They tend to think that it is uh sometimes too

sectarian.

And uh we we have to be careful.

Do we not to not give people the wrong understanding that we think that

being a member of a specific denomination is required for salvation or that that

salvation is through joining any particular denomination or group.

That that is that is foreign to not only the scriptures because there were no denominations back then but it

was foreign to the uh the reformers in their own views.

Was it not.

That's true.

Membership in

a church

does

not

by

itself.

Well

i'd like you

to before

i go

to

any.

More listener questions.

If we have time for any i want to make sure before we run out of time that you have about five minutes

to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners uninterrupted to

make sure that that is definitely aired in the hearing of our listeners.

So go ahead.

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners right now.

Theology and religion.

We have rj in white plains new york.

Who asks.

I know that one of the truths of the reformation is semper

reformata that we are to be always reforming.

But at the same time i know that liberals can use that and twist it into meaning

something.

It was never intended to mean that change for the sake of change to conform

with the whims of society is something that churches and denominations should always be

doing.

But this is not at all what always reforming means.

Am i

correct.

Departure from fundamental

doctrines

but not

depart.

Yes

there's

also

something

dangerous.

Is there not in embracing things

that have never been uttered or believed by anyone in all the centuries of christendom

or perhaps even unconsciously thinking that adopting

ancient.

Heresies that are just being

repackaged

that's

what's

happening the

old heresies

the

bible that

have been laid down for us years and years ago and

that in fact this

this is the

claim of rome.

Especially the by the more conservative roman catholic perhaps even the

traditionalist roman catholic they blame the reformation on

opening the door to all kinds of aberrant heresies.

In fact believe it or not i know some very conservative roman catholics who

blame the reformation on even the liberalism prevalent in rome.

They will even blame the liberalism of pope francis on the reformation

because they will say their church is wrongly trying to mimic uh the

uh the protestants of the 21st century.

Now of course uh the the uh roman catholic who would be critiquing his

own pope can never according their own religion

disagree with dogma that he declares.

But they can.

A lot of people don't realize they can criticize a pope when he's just speaking his opinion.

But uh but uh this is not at all what the reformers intended.

I believe that uh luther once uh said that that that the the accusation was

being made that the scripture can be used as a wax nose or something like that.

I may be i may be misremembering that.

Well we

are out

of time and

i want to let

our listeners know

that if you'd

like to

purchase.

This book you can go to the reform free publishing association

website which is rfpa .org that's rf for reformed

free pa for publishing a publishing association .org and

we hope that you pick that up if you have not won it today and don't forget about the reformed

witness hour and you can hear the reform witness hour anywhere in the world via live streaming no matter where you

live at reformed witness hour .org reformed witness hour .org and you can also find local radio

stations across the country that air that program.

I want to thank you professor engelsmuth for being on the program today and i want to thank you all for for

contributing to the program with your questions and i hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater

savior than you are a sinner.