March 30, 2017 Show with David Engelsma on “The 16th Century Reformation of the Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of March 2017 and in studio with me is my co -host the

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Reverend buzz Taylor and hello once again And I'm so delighted to have back on the program professor

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David J Angles ma for a very appropriate Discussion since this year marks the 500th anniversary of the 16th century

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Protestant Reformation Dr. David J as I'm sorry professor David J Angles ma has agreed to be on the program once again to discuss his book the 16th century

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Reformation of the church Rightly dividing the word of truth and Professor Angles ma is an author.

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He's Professor he was professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reformed Seminary in Granville, Michigan and is now emeritus professor since the synod of 2008

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He's the editor. He was the editor of the standard -bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002

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And he is a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the

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British Isles on behalf of the British Reformed Fellowship, which is devoted to the spread and defense of the reformed faith and the

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United Kingdom And as I said, we are discussing the 16th century Reformation of the church

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron professor David J Angles ma

02:50

Hello Chris, it's good to be on your program again. Yes, and I think

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I should add that the denomination that professor angles ma is a part of The Protestant Reformed Church and its seminary

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Run a program called the Reformed Witness Hour Which is one of the oldest if not the oldest

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Radio broadcast that has been continually running on the air And I believe it's nearly 75 years now that the

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Reformed Witness Hour has been on the air Which as I said is either one of the oldest or perhaps even the very oldest continually running radio program representing the evangelical

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Christian faith and and specifically this broadcast is Spreading the gospel of sovereign grace

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Otherwise known as reformed theology and I am honored that the

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Reformed Witness Hour happens to be one of my clients Where I have placed them on WL ie 540 a .m.

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Radio in New York where they can be heard every Sunday at 8 a .m. And I hope that Eventually we get that program on many more stations where it is not currently airing but and by the way, you could go to the website of the

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Reformed Witness Hour and listen to those programs at your leisure at reformedwitnesshour .org

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Reformedwitnesshour .org if you happen to live anywhere in the New York tri -state area, you can hear that program on 540 a .m.

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On the dial on Sunday mornings at 8 and You can also hear it live -streamed at WL ie 540 a .m.

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Dot -com Sunday mornings at 8 but professor angles ma there have been other books written about the 16th century

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Protestant Reformation and In fact, there have been many books written about the 16th century

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Reformation of the church Why did you feel a need to add another book to the list of many already in existence?

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Couple of reasons come to mind and the first is that This book is a faithful and hard -hitting presentation of the

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Reformation and of all of the issues in the Reformation from the doctrine of Scripture the doctrine of justification by faith alone to the doctrine of the last things

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Reformation certainly had an impact with regard to the doctrine of the last things so that was one reason why we thought that a book like this would be

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Worthwhile amidst all the other volumes that are available especially today

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There's a lot of lip service paid to the Reformation by churches that are reformed and Calvinistic and Presbyterian but in fact in Many cases the great doctrines of the

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Reformation are not only not upheld and boldly preached and confessed but even gutted and Weakened so this book

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Tells it like it is informing and instructing the readers as to what the

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Reformation really taught and suffered for and the second reason for publishing this book was that This book is addressed

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Very deliberately to the layman and the laywoman That is to those believers in Jesus Christ who do not have academic degrees and who do not belong to the clergy

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I dare say That the clergy and the theologians would benefit from this book

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But it's written to the laity in the church informing the laity as to the basic issues and doctrines and even some of the history of the

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Reformation in language that the laity can understand and agree with And you are the editor of this book.

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There are a number of contributors from the Protestant Reformed churches in America and also the

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Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Australia How many people do you have writing or contributing to this book?

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You're right. I did not write the entire book I have a number of chapters in the book, but there are a number of Protestant Reformed ministers who and professors who contribute to the book and also as you said at least one man from the

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Presbyterian Church in Australia, I wouldn't I Many different authors are in the book, but at least 10 or 12 different authors,

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I would say And let me give our listeners our email address if they'd like to join us on the air with a question of their own

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The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Ch R is a

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RN Z n a gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA and If you're going to remain anonymous, please only Do so if you are asking about a personal or private matter, perhaps you're asking a question

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Because you disagree with your own pastor for instance theologically or doctrinally or something

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That's the only thing I can really think of on a subject like this why you would be remaining anonymous or perhaps your

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Your own spouse or something you're disagreeing with Because this kind of subject wouldn't lend itself normally to an anonymous question but if if it's not an if it's not a private matter, then please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence and we already have

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Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island who has a question for you I usually don't take questions this fast But I think it kind of sets the stage help sets the stage for the rest of the interview

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He asks you Title this book the 16th century Reformation of the church

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How many major Reformations were there and what years did they occur?

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How many Reformations have there been what in New Testament history? I'm assuming that's what he means because we typically refer to the

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Protestant Reformation as specifically the 16th Century Reformation and there were other

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Reformations that occurred in England and in Holland and so on So I'm assuming that's what he's asking about how many time of the 16th century

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Reformation of the church the Reformation movement Took place throughout

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Europe. I would include the Reformation in Scotland and the Reformation in other

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Countries of Europe as being part of the 16th century Reformation of the church but since that time

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In the history of the church there have had to be and there have been

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Lesser Reformations throughout all the world that consisted of correcting churches that had departed from the basic truths of the

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Reformation had apostatized in the language of the Bible and churches were

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Reformed brought back to the cardinal doctrines of the Great Reformation of the 16th century and they have been numerous

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Great Britain experienced such a Reformation in the 17th century the

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Netherlands which is my ancestral home Experienced several

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Reformations in the early 1800s and then again in the late 1800s late 1800s experienced a

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Reformation through a man who may be familiar to many of your listeners the well -known

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Abraham Kuyper the Dutch Reformed Church had become apostate both with regard to doctrine and to life and Kuyper was used to bring the church back again to the

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Doctrines and practices of the Reformation so and I would say in a way the church is always reforming

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True church doesn't just stand still, but it's always reforming. It's always having to do with false teachers who appear within the church to subvert the church and Undermine its doctrine and also there's this aspect of Reformation as there was in the

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Great Reformation by Luther in the 16th century That there is growth and development in the knowledge and understanding of the truth of God's Word Reformation is not only negative

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Opposing and condemning errors that have subverted the church But Reformation is also very much positive not only restoring the gospel, but also

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Having deeper insights into the gospel and its riches. So in a way, it's it's always ongoing

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Well, thank you Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York You are getting a free copy of the 16th century

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Reformation of the church Rightly dividing the word of truth edited by Professor David J.

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Engelsma So, please make sure we have your full mailing address so that that could be shipped out to you

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Compliments of our friends at the Reformed Free Publishing Association and Also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be shipping it out to you

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CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com is their website

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CVBBS .com so keep your eye open for a package from CVBBS .com and We thank the

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Reformed Free Publishing Association and also CVBBS .com for enabling us to give away books at no charge to us or our listeners and The 16th century specifically

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The Reformation that occurred in the 16th century was primarily in Germany and Switzerland and am

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I correct to say that the primary figures although there were others were Martin Luther and John Calvin And Ulrich Zwingli weren't they the three primary characters that we think of when we refer to the 16th century

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Reformation? I think you're right the only Addition I would suggest is the notable and worthy

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John Knox Yes carried out the Reformation in Great Britain and Scotland in particular

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He studied under Calvin for a while and was instrumental in Reforming the church in Scotland, but otherwise, you're right

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Martin Luther and John Calvin, especially But Ulrich Zwingli played his role also in that Reformation in this book you primarily or perhaps even exclusively deal with the lives of Martin Luther and John Calvin In the section that deals with the specific figures.

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Am I right? That's correct I might say something about the contents of the book to which you have referred

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Yes readers might like to know that the book is divided into three sections the first is title lives and description is given of the life and ministry of Martin Luther John Calvin and also,

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John Knox the second part of the book is Headed history and give some of the important fascinating history of the

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Reformation and the providence of God And then the third part which is the largest part of the book part three

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Deals with the great doctrines and issues of the Reformation beginning with the doctrine of Scripture Some have said and not inaccurately that the

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Reformation was twofold Restoration of the truth of the authority of Scripture and a restoration of and proclamation of the content of the gospel

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Justification by faith alone in this third part of the book. We begin with the doctrine of the

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Bible The Bible a divine book John Calvin's doctrine of Holy Scripture. That's one chapter the

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Reformation and biblical interpretation. That's another Far brighter than the Sun that's still another that has to do with Luther's Important Teaching in his

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Magnificent book the bondage of the will against the humanist Erasmus who had said about the

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Bible that it wasn't clear. It wasn't understandable and Luther took him to task as only

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Luther could take a man to task Asked the question for example, why in the world did God bother to give us a book that nobody could understand if it says

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Intelligible as you say it is On the contrary Luther insisted that quote it's far brighter even than the

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Sun Hmm, so that's the first part of the section on doctrines and issues

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And then it continues with the treatment of justification a couple of chapters on the

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Reformation's emphasis on piety rightly understood people don't often

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Attribute to the Reformation this emphasis on piety, but that was our God godliness, but that was very much

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Deep concern of the Reformation and then the third part and ends with a chapter by myself on an eschatology of grace which

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I show that the Reformation did deal with the last things and the important feature of that was to place all of the truth of the last things under the auspices of grace that for example did away with the

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Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory and With other views of the last things that caused

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God's people to be terrified at the thought of the coming of Christ in the final judgment the

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Reformation Rather viewed the doctrine of the last things Under the great rubric of grace

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So that every believer can live and die in the calm expectation of perfect salvation in the day of his death and in the

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Day of the second coming of Jesus Christ a magnificent way to view the truths of eschatology but those are the three main sections of the book and Sorry about the pause of silence.

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I was just saying we were getting a number of Emails already from our listeners who are eager to have their questions asked.

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That's promising. Yes And before I go to any of them, though the

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Martin Luther was a very tormented individual before Coming to the realization of what the scriptures actually taught about Grace and salvation.

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I mean he was a man who was very self -aware of his sin But because he had a false understanding of grace and of salvation the very teachings

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That Rome taught and still do dogmatically teach are very aberrant and heretical and foreign to the understanding of salvation that Christ himself had and the

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Apostles and authors of the of the Bible had but he he was involved in self -flagellation he was going to confession and and and speaking to the priest and pouring out

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His sins to the priests so long that they were really Getting very tired of his very lengthy confessions.

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This was a very tormented man, wasn't he? Yes, would you bring up the name of Martin Luther you bring up a man?

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I love I have said more than one person that when

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I die after I have made obeisance to Jesus Christ and Poured out my heartfelt.

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Thanks to him for his salvation. I'm going to look out look up Martin Luther Conversation with Luther, but you're right what you say about Luther.

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He was The outstanding monk in the church of that day. He practiced monkism as no other monk practiced it

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He did all that was demanded and more So that he said after his conversion if anybody could have earned his way into heaven by all the rituals and Legal demands upon a monk.

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I was that man If the church taught him to genuflect ten times

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Luther genuflected a thousand times But the more he worked the more convinced he was by God's working in him that it availed him nothing and With regard to the righteousness of God, which he didn't understand at that time

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God's Word concerning righteousness, especially in the book of Romans Luther said

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I came to hate God because of his Teaching of righteousness he kept he viewed

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God as demanding of him what neither he nor any other human being could ever perform and when

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Finally, he understood in Romans 1 What justification really is not so not a righteousness that God requires of us but a righteousness that God gives us

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Through faith alone. He wrote the gate of paradise open to me so the gospel of grace was to him personally deliverance as probably

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It has been experienced deliverance to very few delivered him from the terror of works righteousness into the

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Joy and peace of righteousness by faith in the Savior alone Now if you were to compare

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Luther and Calvin although Luther Came about Prior to Calvin they still had lives that overlaps and They were contemporaries for a certain portion of their lives

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But Calvin had the benefit of having Not only the scriptures but the shoulders of Luther to stand on whereas Luther Would you say that Luther it it took him longer and I'm not saying he completely succeeded at this

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But it took him longer to shed the baggage of Rome Then Calvin am

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I right in saying that I suppose there's truth in that although When once he saw the heart of the gospel and justification by faith alone

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Luther's Spiritual and intellectual development moved very rapidly. I think you're on to something when you say with regard to Calvin he was always standing on the shoulders of Luther and he acknowledged that and he loved

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Luther deeply also and Even when they differ doctrinally as they did particularly in the matter of the

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Lord's Supper Calvin was loathe to criticize Luther and his criticism was always as mild as Calvin could possibly make it in fact at one time when

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Luther who was rambunctious and Spoke sometimes before he thought things through was very critical of Calvin along with the other sacramentarians as he called the

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Reformed Because He supposed that they were too close in their doctrine of the

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Lord's Supper to the Roman Catholic doctrine Really Luther thought that about Calvin? Oh, yeah,

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I would have thought the reverse would have been true Yes, well, no No, I'm I misspoke.

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I think you're right. He didn't he thought that Calvin did not have enough of the

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What I would call the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Lord's Supper, you're right, okay And then anyway when he was criticizing

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Calvin as being too sacramentarian Calvin said in a famous letter

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He may curse me, but I will still regard him as a messenger of God something like that.

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So Calvin was very favorably inclined to Luther because he recognized that The church and he

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Calvin personally owed so much to Luther Yes, and in regard to that difference that they had about the

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Eucharist or about the Lord's Supper I mean, first of all, I can still not really understand what

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Lutherans are talking about when they try to describe Their understanding of what is taking place there

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That the Lord is truly present in and around the elements or above and around or something like that beneath and around but but they certainly and Luther certainly did not believe that there was a

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Perpetuatory sacrifice Going on there in what the Rome calls a mass

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He did not retain that element of a Roman Catholic understanding of what is going on Did he know he repudiated that element of the

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Roman Catholic doctrine completely and powerfully? But as the quotation you have made of Lutheranism not only but also in its sense of Luther Luther insisted that when one partook of the

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Lord's Supper, he was chewing Literal body of Jesus Christ with his teeth and drinking

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I would say physical blood of Jesus with his throat Because Calvin denied that Taught that we eat and drink

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Jesus Christ after a spiritual manner Luther was critical of Calvin as though Calvin denied that there was a real saving power through the sacrament

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That's a that's an instance in the history of the Christian Church Concerning which

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I could wish that somebody had sat down with the two of them If Luther would have listened for a little while Explain that although Calvin denied the physical presence and The physical eating and drinking

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Calvin and the Reformed in general do not deny a real Partaking of the

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Lord's body and blood but after a spiritual manner not after a physical manner So that in fact

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Calvin would have met the demands that Luther made concerning The Lord's Supper as a genuine means of grace

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You can you can view the Lord's Supper as a genuine means of grace a means by which the

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Holy Spirit strengthens your faith well at the same time denying that the partaking of the body and blood of Christ is after a physical manner and You know

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Ulrich Zwingli who you do not really focus on in the book He had a purely memorial view did he not of the

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Lord's Supper although I've heard I've heard from some Scholars that they disagree with that description of Zwingli, but I've heard for the most part that he had more of a memorialist view that the

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Lord's Supper was a commemoration of the Lord's death But it was not anything that had

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Greater supernatural significance than you know any other ordinary act of Participation and conduct in the life of the church.

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Am I right? Yes that Zwingli certainly left that impression if in fact in his writing he intended more he certainly had the

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He certainly left the impression with everybody that it was as you say a purely Memorialistic Celebration you just remembered after an intellectual fashion what

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Jesus did thousands of years ago and that was what Luther was opposed to but he lumped

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Kelvin with Zwingli and Kelvin's doctrine of the Lord's Supper was far far richer than that and different from him commemorative view

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Now before we go to the break perhaps we'll ask a question and then you can Think about it during the station break and answer it when we return

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But it seems to me that Calvin was much more consistent with his theology than Luther and what

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I mean by that is That for instance the great debate that Luther had with Erasmus on the bondage of the will

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You would think that he if he was consistent logically consistent with that he would have come to all of the other conclusions that Calvin came to from the scriptures and also the the idea of baptismal regeneration that Luther Held to which

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Lutheran still hold to today Seems to be totally inconsistent with one of Luther's own watchwords or pillars of the

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Reformation Sola Fide That we are justified by faith alone But if you could comment on what

29:14

I said after we return from the break and then we'll go to Some listener questions as well

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, we would love to hear from you Don't go away. We'll be right back with Professor David J angles, ma

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35:43

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is

35:50

Professor David J angles ma and we are discussing his book the 16th century Reformation of the church

35:57

Rightly dividing the word of truth if you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

36:04

and we do have a number of people already waiting and I promise I'll get to you Very soon and hopefully get to all of you before the end of the program

36:11

But before the break I asked you your thoughts on whether or not I was correct in my assessment that When you compare

36:19

Luther to Calvin, it seems that the Calvin was much more consistent

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Logically consistent in his theology from the Cal from the institutes of Christian religion and of course,

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I know that the five points of Calvinism as they are formally known today in that Formulated way are our later invention of followers of Calvin or the heirs of the

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Reformation a century or so later, but the the essence of those things

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Appear to be present in the institutes and seem to be very logically consistent whereas Luther held two things that seem to be at odds with each other like for instance

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He is known for the the watchword or the pillar or the battle cry of the

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Reformation Sola Fide that way we are justified by faith alone and Yet he believed in baptismal regeneration, which seems to militate against that if you could give me your own thoughts on that We've been talking about the sacramental teaching of Luther that undoubtedly is the weakest

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Point in his theology both with regard to baptism and with regard to the supper

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With regard to the point you make I think the point is correct. And I think it is an extremely important point

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Just as Jesus Christ is according to the Greek Original in John 1 the word or the logos

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The truth of God is revealed in Scripture is logical the law of non -contradiction is not a human invention, but is built in to the truth of God's Word which if it is not non contradictory, it's non intelligible

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Luther was not always Logical in his theological thinking and with regard to his teaching of baptismal regeneration it failed the test of Salvation by grace alone in many respects for one thing

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How can a child receive the life of Jesus Christ in?

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Regeneration if Christ did not die for that child, but if that child loses

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The new life of Christ the death of Jesus Christ for that child evidently was a failure so that the truth of the cross of Christ is at stake in Luther's doctrine of baptismal regeneration and Another important aspect of the gospel is at stake there because Baptismal regeneration implies that although one is saved

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At one time he can lose that salvation and go lost the truth of the preservation of the

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Saints is imperiled by that doctrine and Luther did not think

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Theologically logical at least not in all respects of his theology whereas Calvin to his credit

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Regarded the truth of the gospel the truth of the Word of God as logical and Therefore was able to confess and develop and defend the truth of the gospel

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In those important respects and in others Far better than Luther was able to do

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Amen and Reverend Bustos. I'm curious about a couple things here How much communication was there actually between Luther and Calvin and I'm just wondering if you know how much of an influence

40:10

Calvin did have on Luther and If Calvin perhaps even quoted Luther at all, although their ministries overlapped for some years

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Calvin in Geneva and Luther in Wittenberg They had no personal contact and they had no literary

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Communication in the form of letters between the two of them But they did read each other's writings

40:39

Calvin read Luther's writings and Luther also read Calvin's writings at one time

40:46

Calvin sent a letter to Luther not a critical letter either but a letter concerning the truth of the gospel that both of them shared and such was

40:58

Luther's antipathy to all those whom he regarded as Weak on the matter of the

41:07

Lord's Supper that Melanchthon Calvin's friend declined to pass the letter along to Luther lest it would enrage

41:16

Luther Calvin was a friend of Philip Melanchthon Luther's cohort in Wittenberg.

41:22

They had correspondence but So far as we know there was never even any literary

41:29

Contact between Calvin and Luther Now you mentioned Melanchthon. Is it true?

41:35

That Melanchthon I have heard that Melanchthon Unfortunately, and I say this as a

41:42

Calvinist that he unfortunately brought the heirs of Of the

41:49

Reformation at least Luther's branch of it Closer back to Rome's understanding of the will of man closer to Erasmus's view and Which is why today the

42:02

Lutheran Church in many ways is far more Arminian I know that Arminius was a century after both

42:10

Luther and Melanchthon But but today it seems that the the understanding of salvation is far more

42:17

Arminian other than the sacraments Yes, you raise a couple of Significant points there that I would like to address first in an answer to your direct question.

42:29

It's true that Melanchthon had extremely strong influence upon Luther his cohort and colleague in Wittenberg in the

42:40

Lutheran churches and Melanchthon was not only not as strong doctrinally as Luther was he deviated especially as he got older from some of the fundamental doctrines that Luther taught including the bondage of the will and Melanchthon had a lot of influence upon the

43:00

Lutheran churches adverse influence upon the Lutheran churches so that Today I would say about Lutheranism in general that we

43:11

Calvinists are far more faithful to Luther Than they are and that has respect to Luther's doctrine of the bondage of the will

43:20

Philip Melanchthon weakened the Lutheran understanding and confession of that point and Also with regard to predestination

43:29

Lutheranism is not very strong to put it mildly on the doctrine of predestination but one only has to read

43:36

Luther's doctrine of the bondage of the will to determine that Luther was faithful to Paul and Romans 9 with regard both to election and reprobation

43:49

Unfortunately, I think it's also true that Melanchthon influenced Luther as Luther got older so that Luther weakened somewhat in regard to sovereign grace and the doctrine of predestination as he became older He didn't deny it.

44:06

I think his weakness was he just abstained from teaching it as Boldly and as often as he had done in his earlier years

44:16

Now I think I should go to some of our lister questions and I and we Unconsciously, I'd say one thing more.

44:22

Yeah. Sure. I forget. I was going to make another point a very well -known and highly regarded

44:28

Lutheran scholar in recent history has been the German Carl Hall HOLL and This Lutheran scholar

44:40

Who is wholly committed to the Lutheran Church and Lutheran theology? Described John Kelvin as quote

44:48

Luther's only truly congenial Either disciple or colleague.

44:55

I'm not sure about the last word. Hmm. So Hall recognized the fundamental agreement of Luther and Kelvin in the matter of the doctrines of grace and of salvation

45:10

Wow, that's good to know. I don't know if he speaks English, but I'd love to have him on the program Did you say he's a living scholar?

45:27

Well, we have a listener in Clinton Township, Michigan, and then we may have stolen a lot of the thunder of his question

45:35

But perhaps you could still comment on it Jeff and Clinton Township, Michigan says does dr.

45:41

Engels not have any thoughts regarding the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod denomination and if they are faithful today to the reform doctrines and principles of the 16th century

45:52

Very good question, and I believe that you probably answered a lot of it and what you just said, but there may be things specifically about the

46:01

LCMS as it's known the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod And I know that that they're not really entirely monolithic you may have different Differences among Lutheran pastors in that denomination to some level

46:16

Although they are pretty They're a pretty a pretty tightly run ship, I believe but if you could comment in the first place

46:26

As far as I know the Lutheran Synod, Missouri of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod Has been in past years what

46:36

I would call conservative that is they've held many of the fundamentals of the faith over against the

46:45

Pressures of sheer liberalism. I have reference to such things as the infallibility of scripture and The historicity of the fall of Adam and that sort of thing male ordination exclusively

47:00

Yes, but I think they've weakened in recent years and that is not only my observation, but that is also a charge that some

47:10

Lutheran theologians and ministers have been making both within and without the

47:15

Missouri Synod Lutheran Church But with regard to their stand concerning the great issues of the

47:22

Reformation even confessionally they would not have Upheld the doctrine of double predestination as Luther did teach both reprobation and election and Certainly they would not agree with Other of the five points of Calvinism so called that you have mentioned a little earlier.

47:47

They are they always have been Distinctively Lutheran rather than reformed and quite consciously

47:54

So so I would be critical of their theology from that point of view, but I don't think they've been upholding

48:01

What I would call the conservative view of things in recent years

48:08

Influences of departure have been noticed in the Missouri Synod as well as other large churches

48:15

Years ago. I would say it was probably in the 1990s I was at a worship service at a

48:22

Missouri Synod Lutheran Congregation and there was a guest speaker there that day who's now in heaven, but it was the

48:31

Reverend Fred shrink line very highly respected conservative

48:37

Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor on Long Island who was respected by men of varying denominations from a conservative and evangelical bent and I heard

48:51

Pastor drink line in a sermon that he gave which was titled would Luther be a

48:56

Lutheran today He concluded his message by saying sadly. No, and this was a

49:02

Lutheran pastor who said that But anyway a very good question

49:09

Jeff and Let me think there was something else

49:15

I was gonna say about Jeff's question and I can't remember it right now But thank you very much Jeff. And if you'd like to give me your full mailing address

49:22

You are going to get a free copy of the book that we have been addressing the 16th century

49:27

Reformation of the church Rightly dividing the word of truth by our guest or edited by our guest professor.

49:34

David J angles ma compliments of our friends over at the reform free publishing association and Also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm

49:53

Who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to iron sharpens iron and we thank?

49:59

you for contributing to the program and keep praying for and Contributing to iron sharpens iron radio with your excellent questions we have

50:10

Let's see, we have another question from a listener We have Joe in Slovenia Who says thanks so much for having.

50:20

Dr. David address our ongoing Reformation I noticed that he wrote and this is in quotes from you

50:28

Professor angles ma it was the most important act of God upon the church for good from the death of the

50:35

Apostles to the present time I've been struck recently by hearing lots of different pastors and preachers who hold to few if any of the tenets of Reformation theology

50:48

Such as at I hop The ethic that he's referring to the International House of Prayer not the pancake chain

50:57

International House of Prayer in Bethel Reading, California, etc Who are laying claim to the

51:03

Reformation and its historical leaders and using loose association? With them to provide cover for and bolster their errant

51:12

Teachings. What do you make of this phenomenon of people who don't hold to Reformation theology?

51:19

But want to jump on the bandwagon because it seems to give them legitimacy Thank you for keeping us focused on Reformation I Think that question points out the truth of what

51:33

I said at the very beginning of this interview and That there are many churches and groups who are loud in this 500th anniversary year

51:46

Concerning the Reformation of the church who nevertheless Believe really nothing of the truth that was

51:57

Uncovered by the Reformation and in fact would oppose the basic truths of the

52:03

Reformation heartily and that's A falsity that's a hypocritical celebration of the

52:11

Reformation To specify just one Doctrine any church or any individual theologian or any group?

52:22

Who does not with? heartfelt fervor embrace and confess the doctrine of justification by faith alone

52:34

Apart from all the works of the law Is no son or daughter of the

52:40

Reformation and is no friend of the Reformation and has no business purporting to be observing or celebrating the anniversary of the 16th century

52:52

Reformation of the church the Reformation Was not an amorphous movement or religious movement of some kind or other it was at its very heart a doctrinal movement a recovery of the doctrines of grace as taught by Holy Scripture and One commemorates truly the

53:14

Reformation if he believes these doctrines with his heart and Confesses those doctrines with his mouth as one who is himself saved by the preaching of the gospel of grace

53:26

We have to go to a break right now and we'll pick up right where we left off If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

53:32

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and there still are a number of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we'll get to You as soon as we can.

53:41

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Professor David J. Engels ma I am

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01:03:09

Welcome back This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go

01:03:15

This professor David J angles mob. We are discussing the book you that he edited the 16th century

01:03:21

Reformation of the church Rightly dividing the word of truth if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

01:03:28

Chris Arns and at gmail .com Chris Arns and at gmail .com and I forgot to tell

01:03:34

Joe in Slovenia That he is also won a free copy of this book Compliments of our friends at the reform free publishing association and also our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service

01:03:46

That's CV BBS calm CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm and you should be getting that Very shortly in the mail.

01:03:57

Actually your daughter in America will be getting that in the mail. We thank you for providing a mailing address in Georgia where our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service can much more affordably ship that book to you free of charge and Reverend buzz my co -host had something to say

01:04:16

I appreciate where you were going before talking about We should not lay claim to the

01:04:23

Reformation without holding to the doctrines of the Reformation and For the sake of some of our listeners who may come from different theological backgrounds

01:04:33

You you mentioned one of those doctrines. You said Sola Fide, but could you just briefly?

01:04:39

Talk about what some of those doctrines are that you are referring to so they understand what we mean by the doctrines of the

01:04:45

Reformation yes, when One speaks of the doctrines of the

01:04:52

Reformation or even the doctrines of Christianity I'm afraid there are many nominal

01:04:57

Christians whose eyes glaze over and they think of deep and long theological tomes and treatises

01:05:06

That theologians invent and debate about in their ivory towers and that's one of the perils of the

01:05:16

Christian faith and people in our day They are anti -doctrinal by doctrines.

01:05:23

We mean simply the teachings of the Bible the Bible is a book of doctrines and Christianity is doctrinal.

01:05:33

It is Christianity one can no more be a Christian Without being doctrinal than one can be a human being without having blood coursing through his veins

01:05:44

Amen, it's a great way of putting it now the great doctrines the outstanding doctrines of the

01:05:50

Reformation and Remember when I mentioned these I'm not excluding others such as the

01:05:57

Godhead of Jesus or the Trinity of God or any of the others doctrines of the

01:06:02

Christian faith, but the distinctive doctrines that were uncovered and proclaimed at the

01:06:08

Reformation where the doctrines or teachings of the Bible that constitute the gospel of grace

01:06:15

That are at the heart of the gospel that every preacher ought to be preaching and every Christian ought to be believing and confessing they are the

01:06:26

Sole authority of the Bible. That's the foundation of all our theological thinking and of all our

01:06:32

Christian activity and faith The Bible is the inspired infallibly inspired

01:06:39

Word of God that reveals Reveals everything that we need to know for salvation in this life and in the life to come and No other writings.

01:06:51

No other human writings Are on a par with scripture or may

01:06:58

Determine the truth of scripture scripture is the sole authority in and over the church then there's

01:07:08

Justification or being declared righteous by God through faith alone and Salvation by grace alone

01:07:18

Implying that salvation is not accomplished by the will of that's an important point to stress in our day the so -called free will of the human being or by the works of man and There's the truth of Christ alone he's the only

01:07:33

Savior and mediator and there are no saviors and mediators alongside of him and there is the

01:07:42

Reformational doctrine of the glory of God alone which emphasizes that The purpose the great grand purpose of all of salvation

01:07:55

And of the salvation of each one of us believers individually is the glory of God God doesn't exist for our sakes but we exist for God's sake and the ultimate purpose of God was saving his church and Saving each of us individually who believe on him by his grace is that we may glorify him both in this life and in the life to come

01:08:17

When I talk about the doctrines of the Reformation then I have those Particular truths of the

01:08:24

Bible in mind especially and all of them starting with the sole authority of Scripture all of them were denied and Compromised in the church prior to the

01:08:38

Reformation So that the Reformation of the church, I'm talking now not about Luther's action

01:08:45

But I'm talking about the action upon his bride and body by Jesus Christ himself

01:08:52

The action of Jesus Christ was to reform the church by means of these great doctrines of Scripture delivering the church from the

01:09:06

Apostasy into which it had fallen now Roman Catholics Typically give a false caricature of the

01:09:17

Reformation and slander the Reformers by saying that they were introducing into the church the the new

01:09:27

Inventions of men they were novel ideas, but this is not true at all. We're not the

01:09:33

Reformers not only obviously Trying to bring the church first and foremost back to the

01:09:40

Scripture but these teachings were not even necessarily

01:09:47

New understandings of the Scripture or these were not new discoveries through exegetical

01:09:55

Searching of the of the Bible's many of these things were already taught by the church fathers

01:10:01

That the Roman Catholic Church claimed were their own am I not right on that? That's correct

01:10:06

If one would read one of the great works to come out of the Reformation Calvin's Institutes of the

01:10:12

Christian religion He would find that Calvin is repeatedly quoting the church fathers the early church fathers in support of all of the teachings that are supposedly distinctive to the

01:10:24

Reformation and among them Augustine most of all he's Continually quoting

01:10:30

Augustine and that's true of Luther as well. He faced that charge That you point out from the church of that day and it's theologians that this obscure monk in this remote village of Wittenberg has invented all these things that the church has not taught and never knew of before Luther came on the scene and Luther's response was that He Was Just doing justice to what

01:11:06

Augustine and some of the other church fathers had taught and that had been lost by the church, especially in the

01:11:13

Middle Ages So there was a line from the Apostles to Luther. Although that line became very thin at certain times and it was very thin at the time of the

01:11:26

Reformation Yes, and although the church fathers themselves they were not monolithic they didn't all agree lockstep on everything but Much in in opposition to the claim of the

01:11:42

Church of Rome They very often try to make it seem that the fathers were uniformly in agreement with their

01:11:50

Doctrines that they proclaim dogmatically at Trent, but that's really absurd because many of those things never existed for the first centuries of the church like the papacy like the perpetuatory sacrifice of the mass like the sacrament of penance and the adoration of Mary and There are met so many things that the

01:12:12

Roman Catholic Church later developed as they became more and more heretical That wouldn't were totally foreign to the understanding of the church fathers or at least many of them.

01:12:24

And of course They were later inventions but at the same time the argument of Rome had a certain power to it when it charged

01:12:35

Luther with disagreeing with men who were highly regarded by the church at that time and Went under the name of the church fathers and that is why in part

01:12:50

Luther insisted scripture alone is the authority in the church And one of the reformed confessions the

01:12:57

Belgic Confession makes a statement about the sole authority of scripture to the effect that if Angels from heaven should teach something different from what we find in scripture

01:13:08

We should not listen to them and we're not bound by what they say men can err and even great men in the early church erred and erred greatly and That doesn't determine what we believe or do not believe scripture determines what we believe or do not believe

01:13:29

Amen and By the way before I forget I want to let our listeners know that the quote that our listener in Slovenia was citing by our guest professor

01:13:43

David J angles ma was from a Pamphlet called the Reformation and the 20th century the

01:13:51

Reformation and 20th century Protestantism and I have the link for that if anybody listening would like me to email that to you

01:13:58

I can email you the the link at the Protestant Reform Church's denominational

01:14:06

Website there's a specific link for the Reformation and the 20th century Protestantism by our guest

01:14:11

David J angles ma that you can have if you just Email me a request for it

01:14:19

We have Chris in Runnels, Iowa It says

01:14:25

I have noticed from reading some of the Reformers that not only were they calling for theological reform, but moral

01:14:32

Reform of the Roman Catholic Church to what degree was the moral aspect a part of the

01:14:38

Reformation or was it merely an evidence? Used to show a need for theological reform.

01:14:43

Thank you. That's Chris from Runnels, Iowa In response to that question the

01:14:50

Reformation was not primarily a reform of morals the

01:14:57

Reformation denied taking place in the interest mainly or even importantly of morals and that's a remarkable thing because as even

01:15:09

Contemporary Roman Catholic scholars acknowledge the church had become morally filthy at the time of the

01:15:19

Reformation offices were sold like candy and the

01:15:25

Popes and the Cardinals lived with their mistresses and fathered illegitimate children and And in every respect the

01:15:35

Morality of the church and her leaders at that time was despicable Yeah, and Luther was shocked wasn't he when he went on a pilgrimage to Rome when he was still an

01:15:44

Augustinian monk He went to on a pilgrimage to Rome and was shocked at the frequency of priests visiting prostitutes and all kinds of things that he was totally

01:15:55

Astonished about the wickedness that seemed to have overrun the church. That's correct

01:16:00

He was he noticed at first hand at the center of the Christian Church of that time

01:16:08

Morally corrupt the church had become that same Luther a very moral man himself wrote

01:16:17

The Reformation did not take place or at least he probably put it in the first person.

01:16:22

I did not engage in the work that Ended in the Reformation of the church because of my concern for morals and then he acknowledged the immorality of the church at that time and went on to say my my concern what primarily and powerfully motive motivated me was the recovery of the gospel and I would not be doing injustice to him if I were to say that his one great overwhelming

01:16:53

Concern and determination were The restoration of the doctrines of the gospel.

01:16:59

That was the Reformation. It was not a moral movement It was a doctrinal movement and Calvin wrote something to the same effect that being said and I would add

01:17:13

In an expected fashion the Reformation did reform morals or Christian behavior

01:17:20

Because doctrine always affects life and sound doctrine always affects life in such a way as to produce holiness of life as its fruit and effect and in the book that We're talking about there are a couple of articles that a couple of chapters that bring that out that the

01:17:42

Reformation resulted in the piety or godliness of Believers who were influenced by the

01:17:49

Reformation and that piety extends to all of the Christian life in the world

01:17:55

Not drinking to excess not fornicating not stealing not taking God's name in vain or basically just just but anyway, basically

01:18:05

Having the Ten Commandments of God's law inscribed on one's heart So that victoriously lives the

01:18:11

Christian life of obedience to the law of God and holiness But that was not the primary concern and aim of the

01:18:19

Reformation it wanted the people of God to hear the blessed gospel of salvation again

01:18:24

The gospel of the forgiveness of sins of righteousness with God and therefore of living in peace with God by way of that justification

01:18:34

Yeah, so just like many Christians today wrongly put an emphasis on how politics

01:18:43

Will transform a nation but the gospel when people are

01:18:49

Transformed inwardly by the sovereign grace of God That will be the real thing that brings about great

01:18:57

Moral reform and even political reform as a fruit will or not

01:19:02

I mean people put the the cart before the horse often even Christians. That's correct the

01:19:08

Christian life the power of the gospel in the lives of Christians and Will affect everything a

01:19:14

Christian is involved in and everything a Christian touches and then so far as a Christian is a businessman

01:19:21

It's going to determine what kind of a businessman he is that he lives not for the dollar but for the glory of God in his business treats his employees

01:19:30

Fairly and uses the money he makes which is legitimate to make money uses the money he makes in the promotion of the kingdom of God and an important area of This effect of the gospel in the

01:19:44

Christian life is marriage and the family Which with reference to politics is really the foundation stone of a

01:19:53

Christian society It's a it's almost amusing to me. It would be amusing if it were not so disheartening that with regard to the calamities in the

01:20:04

United States of America with regard to single parent homes and with regard to juvenile delinquency the wise politicians of the

01:20:16

United States Think that the solution to those social problems is more billions of the taxpayer taxpayers dollars

01:20:25

That's going to get them nowhere it's the Christian faith and life that establishes sound marriages and Homes and family lives that are the solution to those social problems that the

01:20:38

United States is suffering under today And before I go to a question from Murray and Kinross Scotland Before I forget you mentioned something earlier that I kept wanting to Have you follow up on and I kept forgetting to The issue of double predestination

01:21:01

There are many Arminian Christians who caricature that and And teach that it is something that Calvin that never intended it to convey

01:21:15

Nor does the Bible Convey it in the way that they have Twisted it they seem to imply although perhaps not exactly in these words, but when

01:21:27

Arminians refer to double predestination the implication seems to be

01:21:34

That man in his natural state is morally neutral and That God is actively not only

01:21:44

Creating in the hearts of his elect Godliness and a desire to follow

01:21:52

Christ, but he is also actively implanting in the hearts of men evil and rebellion

01:22:00

Causing them to reject Christ when they otherwise may have come to him

01:22:05

That is not at all. What double predestination is about is it? No, it isn't God is not the author of sin and the strongest

01:22:15

Calvinist or reformed man Denies that God is the author of sin that God actively makes

01:22:25

People sinful That's not the teaching of the reformed faith and that's not the teaching of any reputable reformed theologian

01:22:33

But with regard to that issue of double predestination Which is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to so many rather than to Defend that doctrine on the basis of the clear teaching of Romans 9, which is probably where one ought always to start

01:22:53

Let me show the interested reader the interested listener how double predestination is necessarily part of The Reformation doctrine of justification by faith alone

01:23:10

If sinners are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ, the question is where does this faith come from?

01:23:20

And one can confess justification by faith very loudly but undercut and deny the truth by saying that the sinner himself produces the faith and that God really does nothing else when he justifies him and forgives him but reward the sinners work of believing in Jesus now, that's a denial of Salvation by grace as much as the

01:23:47

Roman Catholic doctrine of justification by faith and works The only difference is that these people make faith the work of a sinner that either deserves or obtains righteousness and salvation

01:24:00

Faith is a gift of God according to Ephesians 2 verse 8 and the last part of Philippians 1 and Necessarily a gift of God if one believes with the scriptures that the fallen human being is totally depraved

01:24:13

He has no free will he cannot believe in Jesus Christ His will is bound that was the thesis of Luther's great volume the bondage of the will the will of fallen mankind is bound a slave to Satan and to sin

01:24:31

And as a slave to Satan the will of man cannot choose Christ cannot believe in Christ cannot make a decision for Christ So the question is where does this faith come from by which

01:24:42

God's people are justified? the answer is it's a gift of God a Gracious gift of God then the question is why does

01:24:50

God give that gift to some men some humans and not to other humans? and there

01:24:58

Everyone who has any theological sense or any? Commitment to the Christian religion is faced with the issue of double predestination

01:25:07

God gives it to some and he does not give it to others what accounts for that God has elected some and according to his election gives them faith works faith in them and God has not elected or rejected or reprobated others and according to that eternal decree he does not give faith to the others and Then if one howls

01:25:32

God isn't fair. I have two responses as the Christian faith ought to have two responses in the first place

01:25:42

Isn't God free? and sovereign to give salvation to whom he pleases and Withhold it from others from whom he to whom he does not will to give salvation and the other remark is

01:25:59

This objector finds himself in the same position as the objector in Romans 9

01:26:05

Who complains about Paul's doctrine in Romans 9 that God loved Jacob before he was born and hated

01:26:11

Esau when he was still in the womb? Paul envisions the objector who is saying that God is unrighteous in giving faith and salvation to the one and withholding it from the other and Paul's response is who are thou old man?

01:26:27

Reply us to God who objects to God who questions God? So there you have double predestination

01:26:34

Necessarily involved in the truth of justification by faith alone One cannot truthfully hold justification by faith alone without being committed

01:26:44

To election and reprobation God's predestination Does that strike me with awe?

01:26:50

Yes. God is an awesome God Yeah, I think that's commonly called the terrible decree, isn't it?

01:26:58

Yes, Calvin called it the decreed him horrible. Oh, which really means awesome decree and We could go to now

01:27:07

Murray and Kinross Scotland I'll ask his question and you can answer it when we return from our final break, which we're going to Marie and Kinross Scotland says

01:27:18

After centuries of divisions and splits. Is there a church denomination or group that still fairly?

01:27:26

accurately reflects Luther's theology today and his second part of that question is

01:27:34

With regard to the doctrine of justification by faith. Did Luther hold to being declared?

01:27:40

righteous as opposed to being made righteous well, I think that's where the

01:27:47

Rome and the Reformation really divide Crucially on that point, but we'll have you answer those questions when we return

01:27:57

From our final break if anybody else would like to join us on the air Our email address is

01:28:02

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and I would do so very quickly if you intend to Send an email with a question because we're running out of time

01:28:10

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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01:34:07

Welcome back This is Chris Arnzen and if you just tuned us in for the our guest for the two hours today is

01:34:14

Professor David J angles, ma We are discussing his book of the 16th century

01:34:20

Reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of truth and We have another half hour of the program to go

01:34:27

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:34:34

before buzz has a comment I know that we have to get an answer for Murray from Kinross Scotland Who wants to know after centuries of division and splits?

01:34:43

Is there a church denomination or group that still fairly accurately reflects

01:34:48

Luther's theology today? And he also wants to know whether the doctrine of justification by faith that whether or not

01:34:57

Luther meant That we are being declared righteous or being made righteous

01:35:03

You might answer that or is yeah.

01:35:08

Yeah. No, Reverend buzz just said something else. He wanted to bring up Alright, I love the Scots There's an affinity

01:35:15

I think between the Dutch and the Scots I always appreciate the stories the history of John Knox For that reason also

01:35:26

Well, actually our get our listener in and Kinross Scotland has informed me in the past. He's actually a

01:35:32

British transplant in Scotland Well, I think Scotland has influenced him.

01:35:37

He strikes to the heart of matter First of all

01:35:42

When he asks about a church that holds the doctrines of the river of Luther and of the

01:35:48

Reformation I'm going to take him to refer to those Solas those only is that I mentioned a little while ago

01:35:57

Scripture alone justification by faith alone salvation by grace alone Christ alone the glory of God alone

01:36:04

I'm going to ignore Luther's sacramental theology and as an answer There is a denomination that I know of perhaps there are more but I there is a denomination that I know of that unabashedly uncompromisingly

01:36:20

And that's often with the result that they're maligned Holds to these great doctrines of the

01:36:27

Reformation and that's why I am a minister in and a member of this Denominator America and on the day that this denomination which may

01:36:39

God graciously prevent Abandons or corrupts these truths or any one of these truths that will be the end of my membership in those churches

01:36:48

Because that will be the day that these churches cease to show the marks of a true church And I'm called to be a member of a true

01:36:55

Church of Christ in the second place the Penetrating question about justification

01:37:04

Justification in Scripture particularly in Romans and in Galatians is a declaration of God That one is righteous it is not an activity of God of making one righteous in the sense that a bad person becomes a good person and the difference between Declaration and making is the difference between the true gospel and the false gospel and the difference between heaven and hell when

01:37:39

God justifies the sinner He imputes to the sinner or reckons to the sinner the perfect obedience and suffering of Jesus Christ So that the justified sinner the justified believing sinner

01:37:55

Is as righteous before God as Jesus Christ is stands before God as though he himself in his own person had obeyed

01:38:05

God's law perfectly and as though he and his own person had perfectly

01:38:11

Satisfied the justice of God with regard to all his sins. That's a declaration

01:38:17

Talk about making or let me put it this way to teach that justification in the

01:38:23

Bible is God's activity of making the sinner righteous and two things are necessarily the case

01:38:35

First of all the sinner loses all his confidence all his assurance that he is righteous and saved because Even though God may be at work in him making him righteous.

01:38:49

He knows that he is not perfectly righteous in This life and that therefore the wrath of God still rests upon him as an imperfect person

01:38:58

God after all is perfectly holy and demands perfection of those who are righteous in his judgment and the second thing that results from viewing justification as God's act of making someone righteous is that You can sign most of the human race even those who are members of the church to the fires of purgatory

01:39:19

No one is made perfectly just in this life and therefore Everyone but a few

01:39:25

Popes and they're even doubtful cases have to undergo a purifying process in purgatory

01:39:34

Reformation did away with purgatory. That's not the least of the benefits of the Reformation those who die justified by faith

01:39:42

Die in the sure confidence that a moment of their death. They live with God in heaven

01:39:49

That's no small matter Not only when you're actually dying but all through your life and as much as you know that your death is impending sometime in the future

01:39:59

So to get back to your question Justification is the act of God declaring a sinner a believing sinner to be righteous in Jesus Christ and Making the sinner righteous is

01:40:16

Not justification, but sanctification the work of God's saving grace that also accompanies justification

01:40:22

But that is imperfect in this life and will be perfected only at the moment of death

01:40:28

And this is this concept of justification that you're speaking of is called forensic justification.

01:40:34

Is it not? Yes, and This has a lot to do with the Great Exchange as it's called where?

01:40:41

Our sins were imputed to Christ on Calvary and his righteousness has been imputed to us.

01:40:48

Am I right? That's correct, right and Thank you so much

01:40:53

Murray in Kenrose Scotland, and I've got a surprise for you Murray. I'd normally do not

01:41:00

Mail or have cover one Valley Bible Book Services mail books overseas because of the astronomical costs of doing that But I'm gonna send this out to you myself since you've been such a long time

01:41:13

Listener of iron sharpens iron radio and have been contributing many questions and it's a small enough book

01:41:19

Well, it will so it will not be that expensive for me to ship this to you. I'm gonna ship it to you myself this copy of The book that we have been addressing by our guest

01:41:31

Edited by our guest professor David J. Engelsman 16th century Reformation of the church rightly dividing the word of truth.

01:41:38

I'm gonna ship that out to you myself So make sure that I have your mailing address and I will get that to you

01:41:45

And now my co -host Reverend buzz, but Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment, you know

01:41:51

I'm so glad it finally came up that the book the bondage of the will because I mean that that's like the staple work of the

01:41:58

Reformation and You were mentioning Romans 9 that is what got me because if if Reformation doctrine weren't true

01:42:05

Then there was certainly no offense that Paul would even think that we would make the accusation

01:42:12

That is not fair the fact that in our humaneness. We come to think of that as unfair is proof that it's true

01:42:18

And the answer I think is the best Test of how seriously we take God at his word.

01:42:24

The answer was who are you to answer back to God? He didn't even answer the question it's like, you know, there are some questions you don't ask

01:42:31

God and that's one of them But as far as you were talking about denominations,

01:42:36

I'm glad you also said that there are others in addition to your own but what would you say to somebody who searches the

01:42:45

Yellow Pages for all their worth and they cannot find a decent Reformation Church in their area

01:42:53

Move Thank you, I somehow thought that's what you're going to say and I concur

01:43:02

And move anywhere that where there is a solid Reformed Baptist Church I don't know if Professor angles of a new that's what

01:43:11

I am. But anyway Membership in a true Church of Christ is not optional. Yes membership in the true

01:43:18

Church of Jesus Christ is required And one of my confessions is the Belgian confession of faith written in 1561 by Guido de

01:43:27

Bray a second -generation Reformer and that confession states that outside of the church and the meaning is the instituted church is no

01:43:37

Salvation that's too strong for the blood of many today. But if you View the church is the body of Jesus Christ where Christ is present working salvation by the word and the sacraments

01:43:49

That strong statement by the Belgian Confession makes good sense We have a question from Bruce And Bruce has not given me his city and state but Bruce Asks things that you've already mentioned, but he

01:44:12

But because he says he's tuned in late But he did ask a question that you didn't

01:44:19

I don't think clearly address this aspect of the relationship with Luther and Melanchthon He asks did

01:44:29

Luther's foresee any weaknesses in Melanchthon now you had said earlier that Unfortunately Melanchthon had a negative influence on Luther himself

01:44:39

But did Luther? Want in any way that you know that it's been documented did he want to put a

01:44:46

Put a reign on Melanchthon and pull in the reins and try to prevent anything disturbing that he foresaw in Melanchthon Unfortunately Luther did not take

01:44:58

Melanchthon in hand He regarded Melanchthon as a friend as a colleague.

01:45:03

He admired Melanchthon's gifts Melanchthon wrote what could be considered the first Lutheran confession a systematic account of the

01:45:14

Christian faith according to Reformation doctrine a Document by the way that Melanchthon changed significantly after Luther had died but in any case all that Luther reprimanded

01:45:27

Melanchthon for was Melanchthon's tendency to doubt and fear concerning his salvation

01:45:34

Luther became very strong in his admonition to Melanchthon for his

01:45:41

Doubting his salvation because of his sin and sinfulness and in that connection

01:45:46

Luther made one of his characteristic Statements which has caused offense sin boldly and people have taken that to mean that he had advised

01:45:58

Melanchthon to go out and Deliberately commit sin when actually that strong statement meant even though we do sin as we do

01:46:10

Forgiveness of God Takes care of those sins and we're righteous with the righteousness of Christ.

01:46:18

He tried to allay Melanchthon's fears and doubts about his own salvation in that strong and probably questionable way, but as far as rebuking

01:46:28

Melanchthon for Any doctrines is concerned. I don't think Luther did although I add again

01:46:36

Most of Melanchthon's Departures from basic Reformation doctrine happened or at least came to light after Luther had died

01:46:47

Well, thank well go ahead. I'm sorry unfortunately We were talking about Lutheranism before unfortunately

01:46:56

Melanchthon had a powerful influence on the Lutheran churches and To some extent it wasn't the strength of Luther, but the weaknesses of Melanchthon that got transmitted to much of Lutheranism Well Bruce thank you for providing your your address in Gardner, Massachusetts Because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are

01:47:27

Discussing that has been edited by our guest Professor David J. Engelsma the 16th century

01:47:33

Reformation of the church Rightly dividing the word of truth. So thank you very much for your participation in today's program

01:47:41

And keep spreading the word in Gardner's, Massachusetts and beyond The Some something that you said earlier,

01:47:51

I think should probably be kept clarified because there are those listening that I have been accused of Because of the fact that I repeat very often that I'm a

01:48:05

Calvinist on this program that people wrongly take my

01:48:13

Convictions and my love for the theology that the Lord has opened my eyes to they tend to think that it is

01:48:23

Sometimes too Sectarian and We have to be careful do we not to not give people the wrong understanding that we think that being a member of a specific

01:48:37

Denomination is required for salvation or that that salvation is through joining any particular

01:48:44

Denomination or group that that is that is foreign to not only the scriptures because there were no denominations back then

01:48:50

But it was foreign to the the Reformers in their own views was it not That's true membership in a church does not by itself save anyone or guarantee any one salvation nevertheless membership in a true church is required by God himself in Scripture and thinking of first Timothy 3 for example if I have my passage right where Paul calls the church the pillar and ground of the truth and And Basically assumes that all his readers are members of a true church of Jesus Christ and the reason for that is that in that true church of Christ you have fellowship with Christ himself and are

01:49:32

Given his grace by the preaching of the word and by the sacraments But membership in a church by itself does not save anybody or guarantee anyone salvation

01:49:44

What is important is faith in Jesus Christ according to the scriptures and that faith in Jesus Christ is a faith that trusts in him alone for the forgiveness of sins and for a righteous judgment of God upon him that's basic to salvation by grace alone

01:50:05

That's what we must be preaching and that's part of and part of that is that Christ alone is the

01:50:11

Savior That's what we must be preaching and teaching and confessing to the salvation of God's people

01:50:17

Well, I'd like you to before I go to any More listener questions if we have time for any

01:50:24

I want to make sure before we run out of time that you have about five minutes To summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners uninterrupted to make sure that that is

01:50:36

Definitely aired in the hearing of our listeners very good. So go ahead

01:50:45

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners right now What I would preach and I am a preacher first and foremost

01:50:55

I served for 20 years in a seminary teaching but I was teaching preachers out of the conviction of my heart that preaching is the highest and main calling of a

01:51:06

Man in the service of Jesus Christ what I would preach is Basically what one of our confessions teaches the

01:51:16

Heidelberg Catechism the depravity the total depravity and The guilt before God of every human being including myself by nature

01:51:30

According to which we are worthy of his wrath in this life and of eternal damnation that knowledge of one's misery of sinfulness and guilt is

01:51:45

Absolutely vital in the second place the knowledge of our

01:51:51

Redeemer Jesus Christ is a fundamental importance that of course The Apostle says is what he preached

01:51:59

Jesus Christ and him crucified Which demands the right knowledge of Jesus Christ that he is both

01:52:06

God and man That he is the mediator the only mediator between God and man

01:52:13

That his cross was satisfaction for his elect people Of the justice of God concerning our guilt and our misery and That the same

01:52:26

Jesus Christ regenerates and sanctifies and renews us by his Holy Spirit and in the third place

01:52:34

I preached and emphasize today that We are called and empowered by God in Jesus Christ to be a thankful people that that thankfulness consists mainly of obedience to the

01:52:51

Ten Commandments of God's law and also of prayer That is the

01:52:58

Christian religion and that is sound reformed theology and religion in every age

01:53:05

Amen We have RJ in White Plains, New York Who asks

01:53:13

I know that one of the truths of the Reformation is? Semper Reformata that we are to be always

01:53:21

Reforming but at the same time I know that liberals can use that and twist it into Meaning something it was never intended to mean that change for the sake of change to conform with the whims of society is something that Churches and denominations should always be doing but this is not at all what always reforming means.

01:53:45

Am I correct? That questionnaire is an astute

01:53:50

Christian so much. Is it true that the liberals? Use Semper Reformata To Excuse and justify their departure from fundamental doctrines and ways of life of the

01:54:06

Christian faith That they have almost brought that otherwise honorable phrase into disrepute

01:54:13

Always reforming doesn't mean always departing and departing as far as possible from the great truths of the

01:54:20

Reformation But it means by the Spirit of Jesus Christ Increasing daily in the knowledge the heartfelt knowledge of these truths and the

01:54:33

Christian activities of believing in Jesus Christ and walking in his ways that those truths teach and require and also developing these truths of the

01:54:44

Reformation the last word was not spoken on Sound Christian doctrine by Martin Luther or even by John Calvin there's further development and increased application of these truths so that too is the

01:54:58

Privilege and the calling of the church and her members in every age but not departing from these doctrines

01:55:07

Yes, there's also something dangerous is there not in Embracing things that have never been uttered or believed by anyone in all the centuries of Christendom or perhaps even unconsciously thinking that Adopting ancient heresies that are just being repackaged

01:55:33

That's what's happening Often it's repackaging the old heresies

01:55:42

Very important admonition in a line in the

01:55:48

New Testament Holding the traditions Nowadays if the church or an individual member of a church exhorts to holding the traditions that church or that individual is dismissed as Being out of touch with modern reality or an old -fashioned fellow, but these traditions are the

01:56:15

Teachings of the Bible that have been laid down for us years and years ago and that the church through the centuries that more or less faithfully held to and To my mind the true

01:56:27

Church of Jesus Christ in AD 2017 Start there Not inventing all kinds of new doctrines and ways of life, but holding the traditions.

01:56:38

In fact, this this is the claim of Rome especially the by the more conservative

01:56:46

Roman Catholic perhaps even the traditionalist Roman Catholic they blame the

01:56:52

Reformation on Opening the door to all kinds of aberrant heresies.

01:56:57

In fact Believe it or not I know some very conservative Roman Catholics who blame the

01:57:04

Reformation on even the liberalism prevalent in Rome They will even blame the liberalism of Pope Francis on The Reformation because they will say their church is wrongly trying to mimic the

01:57:21

Protestants of the 21st century now, of course the the Roman Catholic who would be critiquing his own

01:57:30

Pope can never according their own religion disagree with dogma that he declares but they can a lot of people don't realize they can criticize a

01:57:43

Pope when he's just speaking his opinion, but But this is not at all what the reformers intended.

01:57:50

I believe that Luther once said that that the the accusation

01:57:55

Was being made that the scripture can be used as a wax nose or something like that.

01:58:00

I may be I may be misremembering that I would respond to the charge first of all with sorrow that the

01:58:10

Reformation could even Be thought to lend itself to the

01:58:17

Departures and novelties that are found in Protestantism today

01:58:23

But in the first place the traditions that we are to hold are not the traditions of the

01:58:29

Roman Catholic Church but the teachings and ways of life revealed in Scripture and if groups and even churches have

01:58:40

Used the Reformation as an excuse for their false teachings and ways of life

01:58:46

Reformation is not responsible for that They they are responsible themselves for unrighteously finding an excuse and an occasion for their

01:58:59

Novelties in the Reformation the fault is theirs not the Reformation's Well, we are out of time and I want to let our listeners know that if you'd like to purchase this book

01:59:08

You can go to the reform free Publishing Association Website which is

01:59:16

RFPA .org that's RF for reformed free PA for publishing a publishing

01:59:22

Association org and We hope that you pick that up if you have not won it

01:59:27

Today and don't forget about the Reformed Witness Hour And you can hear the

01:59:33

Reformed Witness Hour anywhere in the world via live -streaming no matter where you live at Reformed Witness Hour org

01:59:39

Reformed Witness Hour org and you can also find local radio stations across the country that air that program

01:59:46

I want to thank you professor angles month for being on the program today And I want to thank you all for for contributing to the program with your questions