Can Christians vote for Joe Biden or Donald Trump? | Ep. 8

We don't know whether he's a Christian or not right, but that doesn't matter to me. I would love to have a Christian president. That would be way preferable. But whether or not he is I'm not looking for government to be a pastor in our church.

I'm looking for government to do its job, which I consider to be very small. I want a very small government, so I want a governor who is going to punish evil and praise the good.

Podcast Introduction and Voting Options

And welcome to.

What's the name of our podcast again? I almost said off-the-cuff, but yeah. Tearing down high places. Tearing down high places.

My name is Joe Gormley. I'm Average Joe. Here's Pastor Jeff and Pastor Tim and this week. We're gonna step back and take a 60 ,000 foot view of our voting options. Hmm coming up in November, but in New Jersey we've got June is gonna be our opportunity to Vote for the Republican nominee.

Who's primaries. Yeah, completely set up for for any of anyone who's a Democrat they can be in the Democratic Processor and third parties are really out which is shame. Well. What about RFK. Isn't he a third party?

Yeah, we got RFK. He's an option that guy's interesting so he's anti-vax. Yeah, or at least anti-vax mandate like he doesn't want the government pushing people to put stuff in their bodies, right? Yeah, what else about this guy's a Christian.

No, I think he he's probably pro-abortion and you know I think on parties. He's not the dude. He's probably Catholic. Do we know his name stands for or no. Kennedy. Oh, he's a Kennedy. He's a Kennedy.

Yeah, I didn't even know oh yeah. Yeah, so Robert Kennedy died and this is his son. Yeah, right. Yeah, he's not JFK's. No no direct to send his son nephew. He's a Kennedy.

He's gonna be JFK's nephew, but they're okay.

So he believes that like JFK was was assassinated by more than the lone shooter on the grassy knoll.

Okay, I think that was conspiracy. Okay. Well. I did hear him talk about.

Ukraine oh.

He's not happy with all the money. We're sending over to Ukraine. But I had someone else told me that he was a bit more of a war hawk and one of the things I really like About Trump is how he kept us out of wars and and and tried to get us completely out of ones that were started by his predecessors Although not successfully.

Well.

He ended the war with Isis by just being decisive and strong right. A lot of people think he started that when you when you.

When you talk about Trump yeah, the Really a president of peace yeah folks will say well. He started that Isis war, but he didn't he.

Yeah, he ended it within short order. Yeah, yeah, and there was peace during his his time.

Hmm, so what?

What do you guys think about Trump? I mean he's really the the nominee for the Republicans because we've already established. Yeah, we can't we can't vote Democrat. Right right. Yeah. Can not. Should we say we should say for the record.

Why. Yes because of what they have on their platform in their actual Stated platform of what they're going for. Yeah, right, we're not saying that Republicans are all good. No one is good not even one special.

And when you vote Democrat you're basically saying you're checking off. I'm okay with this. You're supporting. Yeah, yeah, and you would think that that would be a sin to do that well.

I actually thought about becoming a Democrat and and but the reason was I mean they're the only party that really has any Power in New Jersey, oh, I see it. I think I mean in the state representatives.

They're greatly at their Democrats greatly outnumber Republicans in Congress too. I think we have we're down to just two Republican representatives and both of them are squishy. Wow yeah very squishy.

So you decided not to compromise your principles just for power right? I just yeah, I turned down the power.

But no I thought about it just because I would I'm not the power of really just having the ability to go into primary and Make a vote that counts you know. Because really I think that's you know when you when you have a lopsided political.

Yeah atmosphere. There is really the only the election happens within the primary.

That's a good point, but if both of your options are upholding this platform, then it's like choosing between two sons of hell.

Well, it's like sure sure yeah, yeah, but what good are you doing? Well, you're not, but I mean that's not the actual election so the actual election is where you Could you might be you might say that?

Voting Strategically in a primary for someone who okay is promoting sin.

Yeah.

It's not sinful because you're not actually voting for them to be elected. You're voting for them to be the candidate for them to be. Candidate which could strategically be better for the other candidate right.

Who is gonna be the least sinful.

So this is like wise as a serpent innocent as a dove kind of Maneuvering. Yeah, but you didn't do this anyway, so this is all a moot point. No. It's just spec. It's just speculation.

It's just a lot so like what do you do in a state where. Sure you know? Communism and.

Socialism or upheld is the good. Yeah when the debate is the freedom to read act which is. Should we let teachers and librarians distribute pornographic materials with immunity if that's what we're talking about.

You know this this thing has gotten so. One of our listeners was talking to me about that.

And they were taking a position that I was actually trying to. By taking the position we held that that bill should not be passed. Uh, I was actually Trying. I was doing something harmful to librarians and school teachers who have no control over what? books go into their.

It was insane argument, but. But a faithful listener, and we're grateful that you know yeah.

Then we have people listening yeah podcast. Well I think that the idea is that whoever is doing this needs to be stopped right. Like Whoever is putting this book in the library you shouldn't be able to do that or this librarian Who's handing it to the kids needs to not do that right?

You know that's what the guy pulled up. The guy pulled a Moses on me. And he said well what if it's only two lines of pornographic text is that enough to throw the book out. I'm like.

Yeah, it is. How much do you value this child right? That's the question. How much you value the child.

It's it's either pornography, or it's not right. Right. So yeah. It's it's it's just very interesting how the other side of these arguments ends up. You know spiraling down, so we we mentioned though.

We I guess. So really the only option for president is going to be it's going to be Trump, or it's going to be.

Jay, RF guy is he an option or is he pro. I think he's just as pro abortion as the Dems so yeah. So what. Vote for a baby killer?

Yeah, yeah, so a lot of a lot of Democrats and Democratic Christians. Or you know just Democrats would say How can you vote for that man. Like right because the moral failures in his past. Yeah, what's what's.

So what's the moral? Reason behind us saying okay vote for Trump.

Well, we're not voting for a pastor. We're not making a judgment on whether or not. He's a Christian. We're voting for the good of people like who is going to bless This country in the policies that he enacts and the things that he does that actually affects our lives, right?

Yeah, so so Trump's not a theonomist.

No.

Is he a Christian? That's another question. I don't think he is.

I think I don't know. He says that you know he's gone to church, and I think one time He says someone came up to him and said Trump. You're the most Famous person in the entire world. He said. No no no I'm not the most famous.

There's one more famous than me. He said Jesus Christ. But did he say that because he believed it or did he say that for a political posture knowing that. Maybe believers are more prone to to vote for him.

So in in the.

1860s there was a president named Abraham Lincoln who was not a Christian according to the history books I've written I've read.

I've written a history book.

And apparently it's it said that he did become a Christian towards the end of the Civil War. Oh wow, before he was murdered. That's what some people say, but he spoke a lot of Christian ease Before that because that was the zeitgeist that was the spirit of the age.

But I do respect that he at least acknowledged Jesus Christ in a position higher than him. At least he did that Trump. Trump did that which which is honorable and respectable it is. And then there's also the thing of like you know We might not want yeah, well we might not want Biden to be the president.

But there is an aspect of it was God's secret will that he ended up being the president. So whether we wanted it or not. You know it seemed like God put him in that position whether it be for the total good or maybe.

Yeah, judgment. That's the one I was. Yeah, I think.

We deserve this country we were sure if you if you were to.

Think about the policies that we have in place the way we have Rejected our own good laws. Yeah, the way we don't even logically read our own laws our Constitution or follow them.

We deserve judgment right. Absolutely yeah.

It's it's just an amazing testimony that God is gracious and slow to anger and abounding in loving -kindness. That a country that murders babies and Has invented new forms of evil evil that the world had never known Until technology made it possible to to remove Genitalia and things like that just the the levels of evil that this Society has gone to and yet.

God is still merciful. I think it's on account of The righteous ones among right so in Sodom when Abraham was pleading With God if there had been even ten righteous people there God would have spared the whole.

City.

On account of the ten. But there weren't and even lot was you know pitching his tent towards Sodom and was very compromised by the culture. But he was righteous a lot according to the New Testament. So I think there are many Christians left in America and and still pleading With the Lord still praying for this country praying for revival.

And I think the Lord is hearing those prayers, and he's been granting us mercy. But the the threat of judgment and the looming judgment becomes more and more obvious.

That's the verse. I was thinking of a few minutes ago. Would you help me? Yeah. When when when? Abraham's yeah. What if there's only. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about before I said.

Because I'm just average joke. And then there's probably people that think like okay Donald Trump Christianity America all the same thing all the same belief system when it's really not all the same belief system.

We we look at Jesus Christ or first and foremost and we love Jesus. And we want to be loyal to him our allegiances in him our hope is in him and Ultimately we see him as the highest authority the king of all kings.

So it isn't like we love Donald Trump, and we're like worshiping in the guy or anything like that we just see okay, it's gonna come down to Joe Biden or or Donald Trump and My estimation is that at least Trump is a lot better than Joe Biden.

From when I make a vote.

Unfortunately, I think because we have made we have we have shouted out our desire for a king not really a president. There's so much power that the president has. I mean day one. You know we see all these executive orders just flow through no matter what changes the whole country in day one.

Well, there's Joe Biden coming in.

Trump coming in well the first thing Biden did was eliminate so many of the executive orders that were Protecting the border to some measure to stay in Mexico and all those things he he came in and Totally open the borders, and now we have the problem that we do.

That's a presidential decision. It makes a big difference. Sure sure. And you think of Israel back in the day one of the king. Just like all the other nations, and yeah, and then they gave God said okay.

You can have Saul, but it wasn't like Saul was really the best for them right. So. Yeah, a lot of people wanted Biden. We got him. And I don't I mean the way I look at it is your is it are we better off than we were four years ago.

And I think the only way we're better off is if you're an illegal immigrant in that first.

Is it more important that Israel wanted a king or that they wanted a king like other nations.

Mmm.

They wanted it well I think it's good if they wanted a king if they see that God established the king or if they see that you know God is The ultimate authority, but if they wanted to be like the other nations That's wrong because they were supposed to be a light to the other nations and Be more of an example to the other nation.

So I think them wanting to be like the other nations and wanting to be like the world I think is not right, but wanting to follow God and not be afraid and take a stand. And do what's right? I think that's commendable.

The Desire for a King and Political Identity

Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because in that I think it's first Samuel 8. Mm-hmm it talks about they want a king like the other nations to fight our battles for us. And what I and the reason that that the kind of gray church in the those who are opposed to any kind of strident Moral teaching from the pulpit or in churches what they'll say is well, that's just like you Political one you know you want Trump you want someone to fight your battles for you you want political power rather than just trusting God.

But.

Where do they get that from. Because we do need a champion for our salvation in this sphere? We have a champion Christ who fights our battles right now. What is the role of a political leader. Mm-hmm?

We know it's only God who's gonna fight our battles, but he uses instruments and. There's like this outrage against Trump because of his rhetoric. Right. He's always ready to fight. He's always ready to but the question is should really be what is he fighting for sure and in this moment?

Do we need someone who's willing to fight. Right. That's ultimately what we need when there's extreme evil. You have to stand up to it like if if I'm a homeowner and someone breaks into my home and is about to assault my Children, that's a time to fight.

So there comes a time to fight. Well if you have paganism overrunning the country. You need someone who's gonna fight the evil. So I think there is a place for strong rhetoric. But I think what we need to do though is just keep it a strong distinction between these spheres.

Government.

Church.

Family.

Individual right. So in the government you have Donald Trump as a leader. We don't know whether he's a Christian or not. Right, but that doesn't matter to me. I would love to have a Christian president.

That would be way preferable, but whether or not He is. I'm not looking for government to be a pastor in our church. I'm looking for government to do its job, which I consider to be very small. I want a very small government, so I want a governor who is going to punish evil and Praise the good right.

It doesn't say reward the good in first in 1st Peter 2 or in Romans 13. It says praise the good that that doesn't mean redistribution of money to to whatever good cause it means to Know the moral law of God and be able to state that to praise.

What is good and to punish. What is evil? Yeah, and what are those things. Well? It's things like murder and theft and all the you know the evils that are being foisted on our culture.

Well, I think it's evil just to you know have the government in charge of charity. Yeah, because I think they're stealing from It's just pure materialism that you would think that any time Someone's material needs are met that that's good.

It's the Bible wouldn't say that no. It's lacking in this the spiritual needs right and and God's design to bring Material and spiritual needs to those who lack through people who have already experienced that God says we can comfort those Who have experienced any kind of suffering right with because we know how to connect with God?

Yeah, but not just with food. Yeah, just with money. Yeah, and it's not government's role to provide right. So in Thessalonians, it's if the man shall not work. I mean does not work. He shall not eat right.

You're to bring The food up from the ground. And when there's somebody who it's not because of laziness. It's because of some disability or something. That compassion that charity should be the work of Christians and of everyone.

We should we should be a loving people that and it should first of all most importantly come from the family.

And and I think I think the Puritans who first came to America. Yeah, recognize that there when you had a socialistic system. Yep, you you were breeding laziness. You were brief you were wait, so you were taking from those who were willing to work.

Yeah, I'm giving to those who wouldn't and their bureaucracy was tiny compared to what we've got now.

Socialism, Charity, and the Pilgrims

Yeah, not a control. Bev Sullivan my friend be Nathanael Sullivan wrote a book on that. It's actually on the shelf Tim. Can you look over there? It's like up leaning sideways. To the right of my books there, but you hand that to me.

I'm not sure where it's at. It should be right around this corner. Yeah, it is. Yep. This is it. Yeah, I want to show it to the people. All right people this is what you're talking about praise to the so important heed the pilgrims yeah.

Yeah, okay.

This book is called heed the pilgrims on socialism and critical race theory. Events of 400 years ago that provide needed insights for Americans today. Yeah Sullivan s-u-l-l-i-v-a-n get this book.

Well heed the pilgrims. Here's why when the pilgrims first arrived They tried socialism right. The system was was all arranged that everybody would work. You know each to each one according to their need.

Need based theory of justice and from each according to their ability. It's really what they tried and they almost starved to death.

It.

Shipwrecked completely and they realized it and that's when they implemented capitalism as a system. Which was more biblical. They found that back in the scripture. They realized the principles we're talking about sure about if a man shall not work He shall not eat and all of these things and that's when it began to thrive.

And so America was built after the first effort of socialism failed upon on the truth of God's Word.

So Jesus isn't a socialist.

Jesus is not a socialist. Just read his parable about the workers in the in the field. I know so many. Yeah. Christian friends that Really think Jesus is a socialist. Wow that that's because they really want him to be one.

Yeah. Well, how's that happen. Tim, I don't understand. It's because they don't know who the real Jesus is. They these people that say that have never read the gospel before they don't even know who he is.

They see Jesus as this good teacher. But they really wouldn't even know it because they've never even read any of his teachings in the gospel. They just got this Teaching from someone else saying that oh, he's a good teacher a good moral teacher.

He might even be a prophet. He's a respectable guy but if you don't see him for who he really is the Savior who bled and died and rose from the dead and Conquered the grave and is now Seated at the right hand of the father and is coming back to judge the world if you don't see him as that Then you're never going to respect what he actually said.

You're gonna look to What you already believe and try to insert that into a text that you've never saw. Mm-hmm.

Voting, Economics, and the Role of Government

So, I mean when I think about the voting the thing that I want the most I certainly I just I despise being involved in Politics. I I've done some lobbying and it is not fun or it's not fruitful to be lied to all day long.

Mm-hmm, you know. Or like to overextend a period of time. I just want to love my neighbor and I. I wonder who is loving their neighbor more. Is it Trump? Is it Biden? Is it how do we look at that?

Well, I think you have to look at each issue Individually and then say what where stands it written? What does the Word of God say about economics and if if one candidate is saying? Well, we need to print more money and and forgive student debts.

Which is ultimately to take away from the taxpayer feeling.

Yeah.

Usually people who have worked hard to earn money you take from those who work to give to those who took on a debt.

They don't want to pay.

That kind of immorality has to be punished at the ballot box sure. So that kind of thing you look issue by issue economics. The biggest one, of course is abortion. The race kind of identity politics. There's one side that's all about that.

Okay, you know everything is demographics versus the other rejects it. No, sorry.

No.

Jesus said The poor you always have with you and you can give to them when you wish when you wish you can give out of the kindness Of your heart, but what the government does is take from Joe who has more and gives to Jeff who has less without, you know.

Permission, it's just this is what we're gonna do to make it equal when it's not equal, right?

And that just fuels the fire for people to be lazy.

Yeah.

Which is I said and it stirs up anger and hatred from the person who's being stolen from. Like it's your you're sowing division into the culture. That was one of the good things.

I really liked about Trump in his when he was president. Is he? Eliminated DEI right from all federal.

Yes.

Federal bureaucracies, right, which was wonderful. I think I also liked that. He got rid of HL the World Health Organization you got rid of that. That was great. And then I really thought he was gonna just flat-out take the UN out, but he never.

Yeah. If he got reelected, I think he might try just completely just get rid of them or get rid of NATO at least. I mean think I think about one of the most dangerous things out there is NATO expansion.

I mean because that's really how we got in the Ukraine, right?

Yeah, the whole United Nations thing. I was there in Geneva for just a short period of time. But visited a number of the different agencies of the UN and all I saw was that they hate us.

They hate.

Americanism they they want world government and the thing that stands in the way more than anything else is the United States of America. It's this the nationalism of this country that prevents them from going all-in in this one-world kind of order.

So yeah, I think Trump stands against that whereas Biden is for that. He wants more and more of a one. That's what the Ukraine is all about. This is the this Western bloc all uniting together as as a one world government.

So basically we don't want a one world government because that's the biggest government you can have. Yes. And it will be headed by the Antichrist.

Where do you see in Scripture talking about a one world government or the establishment of nations? What's what does Scripture have to say that. Why do we yeah, why are we so as Christians?

So and I totally agree. Yeah, but I want you I want to hear so revelation and said revelation 17 and 18 are about the religious one-world system that arises and the governmental one-world system Babylon and It's described in the most stark terms as utter.

Wickedness.

It's built on on money and that falls to their to their chagrin. They're all lamenting the fall of that that system of money that they built. But it's it's a wicked system. That's really ultimately run by the devil himself.

Wait a minute Jeff.

Yeah, aren't you a dispensationalist? I thought dispensationalists want one world government so that we can get to.

Our.

So we're trying to speed it. Oh, that's that's interesting because what is our goal as the salt and light in this earth before that last seven-year period. Sure. Yeah, and I think we go out fighting.

Like when when Christ comes back, will he find faith on earth? Yeah, when when he calls us up raptures us up. It's gonna be the faithful remnant who are still fighting faithful to the end.

Wait till. I tell some of my Presbyterian friends that we have optimistic.

Yeah, we definitely don't want to build the high places just so you know judgment faster, right? Well, I think what you have to do if you're gonna go the post mill like super optimism thing is ignore the fact that the trajectory of every Eschatological book that speaks to this is that it ends in really bad things.

So, how do you read the book of Revelation and you're just optimistic about the last seven years partial preterism. Okay, you're Not going with you there, but that's interesting that you hold that that's why I'm partial Sensational partial preterist pan-millennial all pans out in the end all pans out which is good in Thessalonians, right?

It's the what what happens the rise of the Antichrist and All of the the wickedness and the apostasy the great falling away. Yeah, I'm not optimistic about that, but here's the great thing about dispensation, especially pre pre trade rapture.

Is that we can be very optimistic about the what the church does until raptured so we can be the most optimistic people. We could be winning gloriously when Christ comes because all authority has been given to Christ.

Yeah, but we also have this you want? I don't know if you want to call it a dispensation or not. But the actual tribulation period that seven-year period the church is raptured out when all of those horrible things unfold.

We might see birth pangs of it and we may have to endure suffering as Christians have all throughout church history okay, but we can be super optimistic because Christ is coming for his church. We're not looking for the Antichrist.

We're looking for Christ to come and rapture us out. We'll meet him in the air and be with him forever. Um, so we're gonna win here as much as we can winning souls to Christ. Building as much as we can and building church.

That's why I don't want to just have this one church here. We're we are together. We wanted to plant the rock and one day I'd like to see you pastor another church in the area. I want to see us just multiplying right growing and then Christ will call us out and then when the tribulation comes.

It will be ugly. I love the optimism. I love that. We're looking for Christ. I love. I think I really do believe in dispensationalism, but I am a partial preterist. I am however willing and I'm not sold on the rapture.

I am however willing to change my mind. Mid-flight.

That's when you'll know.

Yeah, I used to tell I was working at a Presbyterian Church as a youth pastor for three years 2000 to 2003 and me and the pastor would joke about it. Because I'm dispensationalist and and he's covenant theology.

Sure, so he he would promise me that while we're being raptured if that happens, he's gonna wave at me.

Okay.

But until then he's gonna hold his view. So, you know, I stole that line right from Bill Martin. Yeah, that's probably Wilson. I think it might be done. Well, I heard him say that yeah the name that shall not be spoken.

I love Doug Wilson. I know I'm not ashamed to say it. Yeah, I mean I doesn't mean I have to agree with everything in every position, but I think by and large he's right.

I was I was chatting. I was chatting Ivan about this last night. Actually that Doug Wilson and Moscow, Idaho. Mm-hmm is really the what we want to do in South Jersey or all in New Jersey, right? You to to pick some ground.

Yep. Lay our stakes there and you know. Everything they say all politics is local. Oh, yeah.

That's why we have a pastor on a school board. Yeah, and he's making a difference there. Yeah, you know and I think we we are making a difference politically in New Jersey even with the freedom to read.

Yeah, just just being willing to speak being willing to swilly to take advantage of.

A.

Right that we've been given that we take too little advantage. Mm-hmm. Amen. All right. Yeah. So what do you think about Trump Tim?

What do you go for this dude? We don't yeah, I don't know if he's a Christian. But I'd probably vote for him again If I will say if there was a born-again Christian candidate from a different party or you know.

Someone better than Trump that would be a Republican I would vote for them. But also Christian ethics. Yeah, that's really was more important. So the church he was blue church. Oh totally so blue church.

Christian really even though he claimed to be evangelical. Yeah, but I think you got to make a judgment, but I also like to keep this verse in mind. It's Proverbs 211 the king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord.

He turns it wherever he will. So ultimately God is in control so yeah, I don't lose my mind just because whoever I wanted is gonna win the election. Okay, I'll tell you what. I think. Mm-hmm. I think that the last year of the Trump presidency was pretty bad.

Oh. Operation warp speed and yeah. And just the the way it was just so much about him the whole time. Mm-hmm. It was. To me it got pretty pretty far off the rails. He's the king of the jab. Yeah, yes.

Got that jab out quicker than anybody. He hasn't he hasn't said anything negative about it yet. He hasn't recognized that it might have been the rushing of it to.

Write a problem. And if he was promoting Fauci that whole time a lot of statistics look like, you know. All that said he was not shutting down churches. He never shut the churches down right in Kobe, right?

And it was really the governor's that did it but Biden was with Murphy, you know. Promoting that kind of thing. So the things that affected us the most were the lockdowns. Forced masking. I am still angry about the fact that they forced children some of them who have trouble breathing out of their noses.

They can only can breathe through their mouth to wear a mask on their face for seven hours straight in a school. Horrible horrible. Yeah, I was. That makes me mad. About what they did to these children.

Now there's effects. Yeah. Yeah. No, I 100 agree. Yes, it is get a little infuriating that they did that and then for they tried to force injections.

You imagine that I think kids bounce back from a lot of medical things. What was the exception of what some of those injections went to. But like just the wearing of a mask a kid can handle that? But kids are very much Easily trained to be fearful.

Yeah, and and the fear that still exists in in our youth because of that.

Yeah, not our youth at Cornerstone, but no no in the culture. No in the culture.