Justin Peters on Joshua Harris | Apologetics Live 0041

Joshua Harris, Apostasy, and Hebrews 6

This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the Christian Podcast Community.

All right, we are live, Apologetics Live, glad you are with us. And we are on a new platform, so we're going to see how this works out. I hope it will work out well. And I am joined by a dear friend, many of you may know him, it is Justin Peters.

Many of you may know of him with justinpeters .org and it is a good website to check out. So go there. He is, I would say, probably the leading expert when it comes to issues of word of faith and things like that.

So we'll get into some of that. But Apologetics Live is a ministry of striving for eternity. And I will start by letting you know, where's Matt Slick? This is what some are asking. Let you know, Matt is his, I think I mentioned this the last time we recorded, but Matt is his, his wife's brother has passed away and that is kind of taking a toll on the family.

And Matt is taking time to take care of his wife, which is what he should be doing. And so that's where he's at. He's going to take a couple of weeks off. And although if he takes too far off, he's also going to be moving to, to Arizona.

And so that will probably take a little bit of time. And so we may not have Matt for a little bit as he just adjusts to life. That sometimes happens. So Justin, I figured I'd have you come in as we start off.

You and I are going to be recording later on tonight with Jim Osmond, who is your pastor. And he, we're going to talk about Joshua Harris, but I figured it'd be a good thing to start off with tonight.

We could, we could chat about this a bit. For folks who don't know, Joshua Harris was a, someone who wrote a well-known book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, built a platform. And after that, he basically recently has announced he is no longer a Christian.

And so Justin, right off the bat, I think you and I both go to the same exact verse when someone says they're no longer a Christian, what is it we think of when we have someone that claims they're no longer a Christian?

They never were to begin with. You know, Andrew, the Bible just gives too much clear testimony that those who are truly regenerate, who are, have passed from death to life are in Christ. They are, they are held by Christ.

They are held in the, in the hands of Christ. They are held in the father's hand. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And Jesus does not lose any of his own, I'm paraphrasing a number of passages there, but he never was a Christian to begin with.

He has, what is so shocking about this, I guess, is not so much that he's had this long quote unquote ministry, but he actually calls himself an apostate. He, he, he, he says of himself that he has fallen away.

And the biblical term for that, theological term for that is he is apostatized. He has fallen away from the faith. And he knows that. He knows what it is. He was a pastor for 20 or so years, written a number of books.

And so he knows what he's done and he embraces that tragically. And in God's providence, Jim Osman, as you said, he is, he has been past, he has been preaching, excuse me, through Hebrews chapter six for the last number of weeks.

And he has gone very much in depth in Hebrews chapter, Hebrews chapter six. And Joshua Harris is a tragic yet timely example, in a tragic way, of Hebrews six. This is, this is someone who has, he meets all the biblical criteria that we see listed there in Hebrews six, and he is flat out walked away.

So this is first John 2, 19, they departed from us because they were never of us. He was never a Christian. He was never born again. He was never regenerate. He was a false professor of Christ. He was someone who just warmed his hands by the fire.

He tasted of the heavenly gift. He partook of Christian things. He professed to be a Christian, but he never was regenerate. And it's a profoundly, profoundly dangerous place to be, where he is right now.

And, but we have to conclusively say that at this point, he is not a believer.

Well, I, yeah, because, I mean, that is what we would see in first John 2, 19. He went out from among us because he was not of us. And he went out from among us to display or expose that he was never of us.

That's hard for some people to hear because he had such a platform. And, you know, I think it was fitting that, you know, Pastor Jim was going through Hebrews six, right, as this, as, as this is being announced.

Um, and I think that a thing that, and we'll get into this in more detail when you and I record with Jim later tonight, uh, for the podcast, the rap report podcast that'll drop on Sunday, but one of the things he mentioned, which really caught me and you brought it to my attention was he referred to a tsunami of apostasy.

And we're going to get into that on the podcast, because I think that's an interesting phrase he used. And I really, that's what I expect will happen. I mean, I think there's going to be a lot of people who were, are hypocrites.

They're pretending they're in the church. They're not really of the church and they are going to, you know, they're going to see Joshua Harris start making some money and they're going to want their hands on that money.

And I think that's, what's going to happen. You're going to see, this is only one of many, I think, that we're going to see, you.

Know, uh, I agree. In fact, we've seen two, uh, rather high profile, uh, examples of apostasy, one with Joshua Harris, the other one, not as well known, but, uh, a, uh, songwriter for Hillsong, Marty Simpson, I believe is his name.

He also has, uh, apostatized, uh, very publicly. And he, he apparently wrote this song. I don't know what it's called, uh, something with oceans in it anyway. But, uh, he was a, he was a writer for Hillsong and, uh, fairly popular, I suppose, uh, Hillsong is enormously popular, but he, he has also renounced the faith and, and, uh, I think you're exactly right.

Jim is exactly right. This is going to continue. Um, this should not surprise us because the Bible says that this will happen. Uh, it, it, it tells us these things would happen. So yes, they grieve us.

Uh, yes, I can certainly see how it would shake the faith of some, but it need not do that. It need not cause us to our faith in Christ or scripture to be shaken at all because we should expect this. The Bible tells us this will happen.

And it also tells us, and my apologies to all of our, uh, post-millennial friends out there that things aren't going to get better. They're, they're going to get worse. Men will go from bad to worse.

It's not going to get better. The spiritual climate as time goes on, it's not going to get better. It's going to get worse. We're going to see this more and more. And, uh, we will probably see more very high profile examples of it.

So, uh, uh, don't lose heart, Christian. This tells us that these things will happen. We grieve, but we shouldn't be surprised when they do.

And, and this is, I think, uh, you know, some we'll get into in our podcast when we get to doing that, but I think that, um, I do think that we're going to get into an interesting question. What do we do with folks like this?

Can we read their books anymore? I mean, do we just reject the books? Uh, you mentioned Marty, uh, do we, do we reject all his music? Well, okay.

Wait, let me back up. Yes. We reject his music for a different reason.

You reject his music cause of where it's coming from. But yeah.

Yeah, no, I was kind of setting that up for you. Yeah. So, so, I mean, before we, I mean, we're, we have a couple of people coming in. And by the way, I should mention, we were on a new platform. This is called stream yard.

Um, this for folks who are regulars to apologetics live, uh, especially if you're used to watching it, this'll look a little different and you can, you'll see that there's a different structure to this and, uh, we're still kind of learning it, but one of the nice things, um, is that as comments come in, uh, they can be shown on screen.

So you get to see some of your comments for those who are commenting on YouTube. Um, and so, uh, I guess this comment that came up is, is referring back to the Hill song should have rejected it because it's not biblical.

Yes, that would be true. Um, but with the new technology, we still have the same website. So if you want to join, you can still go to apologetics live .com. One thing I don't know, a stream yard is I don't know how many people are allowed to be in here.

They, that I haven't figured out. So we're going to have to just watch it and see when we hit a max or something. Uh, right now we have six people in, and so, uh, I have to bring them in one at a time.

So it's, uh, it's, this is the, uh, a nice replacement now for folks who want to join, I will say this because Justin and I were testing this out last night. And, um, so one of the things with this technology is right now you need Chrome or a newer version of Firefox.

So one of those two will work, but, uh, for folks who are trying to get in on some of the other platforms, other browsers, it may or may not work. Um, we are testing with phones that seems to work on the phone with Safari, but not on a computer with on a Mac with Safari.

I don't know why. So just, you know, uh, and all you have to do to join is come in, hit the button to join, and then what you do is just click the, it'll your browser pops up and asks permission for your camera and your mic to you be used.

And when you say yes, you should come into, I think they called it backstage is what that's called. Uh, that you're, you're in the backstage or something like that. So we're, we're going to play with it.

This is the first week. Um, uh, you know, Matt was going to try to do some shows while I was traveling. And I think he was, I think that, uh, it was a question of, okay, uh, how's this going to work? Uh, you know, no one wants to be the first one to try new technology, especially Justin.

I'm logically challenged. Yeah, you, you are challenged when it comes to technology. Yes. So, okay. This is, this is a typical, a typical day with Justin and I, and I'm going to embarrass him. He's going to laugh.

Justin, what is it that I'm always doing when you go to put your phone into your basket? Turning it off for me. Justin has this habit. He doesn't actually shut his phone off. He just puts it in the pocket.

And I've actually seen, I know why when I text Justin, he goes, I didn't see it. It's because when he picks up his phone, he actually hits the button, opens up a text message, doesn't know, and it hits the home button and it's marked as red.

So I bust on him. So I have a thing that we could do, Justin. Um, we, we should let folks know, uh, I, I, when you and I were in the Philippines, you were having some, some health issues and, uh, you are doing much better, you've recently gone to a doctor and all the strength in your arm has returned and, and I told you, it's, I think it's one of two things.

Um, and so I'll let folks know. I think it's either the fact that I was with you on the plane and I was praying. I was laying hands on you and praying for your neck and your, your muscle strength to come back.

So either it is that I am like the world class faith healer, because I mean, if I could heal Justin Peters, I mean, Benny Hinn has nothing on that. He can't claim that. I mean, the fact that you still use the crutches doesn't matter.

I didn't pray for your legs. I only prayed for your neck. So that's that. I'll pray for my legs. That would be like, you know, then I would be a false teacher or a false prophet if I pray for your legs.

And I'd be like Benny Hinn. So we don't want to go too far. So it's either that I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm going to start my ministry as a faith healer claiming I healed Justin Peters or the other, the other conclusion that we had was maybe that I made you so sick in the Philippines with you having to be stuck with next to me all the time.

That it actually affected your neck and that all the strength went out. It's one of those two. And I came up with a way, Justin, I came up with a creative way to let our audience decide who's right. So if, if folks think that I'm right, that I am the world class faith healer of Justin Peters, they could give a donation at strivingforeternity .org slash donate to donate to striving for eternity to say that I'm right.

That I'm a faith healer. However, if you think that it's that Justin is just was sick and tired of me. Well then go donate to him. Oh, check out that page. JustinIwin .com. If you go to JustinIwin .com and donate to Justin Peters, we'll know that you actually think that he was just sick of me and couldn't take it anymore.

So that was my creative way of coming up with a way for folks to let us know who won and folks could tell us in, in the chat as well, who they think won. And we'll put some comments up as people, as people come in and do so.

But I think I should start my career as a faith healer. I really do.

Well, you would have a better track record than Benny Hinn, those four house folks.

Well, I think his track record is what? Zero out of a hundred percent. Yeah.

He's got a perfect record. He's got a perfect record of not healing anyone.

Yeah. So, uh, so yeah, so I think that, um, I, and, and I, I like what, what this comment, someone said, uh, like someone said, why don't they all with, why, why don't all these miracle faith healers go into the hospitals and empty them out?

And that's an argument that, that I've always made. What, okay. Let me, this is a comment someone made. So Justin, what is the argument that you hear when you give this, uh, argument to folks, uh, which are, why don't they empty out the hospitals?

Why don't they?

Well, uh, no, what, what they would say is that, um, you know, they, they call the sick to them and worship and hospital. You're not really worshiping. I mean, they would, they would have some ridiculous argument like that, but I mean, it's nonsensical, it makes no sense.

I have an open challenge. Uh, I w I would challenge any of these people who claim to have the gift of healing, uh, Todd White comes to my mind at the forefront and he claims to be able to go up to people at random on the street and lengthen their legs.

Well, if you can do that, um, if you can heal people at will at random on the street, then surely you can go into a hospital and the first hospital I would recommend him going to would be St. Jude children's research hospital and heal those sick kids of cancer.

Heal them from their cancer. If you can do, if you can lengthen a leg, surely you can command cancer cells to die. So why doesn't he do that? The reason he doesn't is because he's a fraud. He's a charlatan.

He is a greasy snake oil salesman. Uh, he can't do this. That what you see Todd White doing on the streets is nothing more than psychological manipulation. Any two bit huckster can do the same thing. Just manipulating people.

Uh, there's nothing organic about it at all. Uh, these people are outright frauds, but if, if they could heal people by command and first place they ought to go St. Jude children's research hospital and, and heal those kids dying of cancer.

That's, that's where they ought to go, but, uh, they won't do it. They, and the reason they won't is because they can't control the atmosphere in the hospital. They can't, uh, they can't generate an organic healing.

All they can do, uh, or they can produce psychological healings, psychosomatic mind over body. Oh yeah. I feel like the pain in my shoulder. My shoulder feels a little bit better right now. You know? Yeah.

I feel better. Um, in any, as I said, any two bit huckster can do this. It's been proven. There's a video on YouTube called miracles for sale, uh, produced by a guy named Darren Brown. He is an atheist or he professes to be an atheist, but he shows how this is done.

Uh, it's just a trick. So yeah, uh, Todd White's charlatan. Then he is a charlatan. So.

You know, it looks like Justin, as we look at the comments, it looks like a lot of people think that you, you are the winner. And, and, and this, if you look in the, that's a friend of ours from the Philippines, they're Jackson, a recently married Jackson.

Hey Jackson. And, uh, I guess he's watching in the Philippines and just likes to say, Oh, well, hashtag Justin. I win.

Um, man, Jackson's a great guy. I'm so glad he's so. We have someone from the, from the Philippines and from Australia watching this. That's yeah. Yeah. Jackson, if you can hear me, brother, God bless you, man.

Uh, I'm so happy for you and your sweet wife. Jackson's a great guy.

Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. And he, he was the one that came up with the idea of, instead of saying one, two, three, like cheese or Jesus. When we took the picture, he had everyone say, Justin, I win, which I just loved.

I loved everybody's posed for a picture and said, Justin, I win. That was great.

I should say, I should say, so we can fill in some gaps here. Uh, I did have a problem. And in fact, um, as you know, Andrew, they did, uh, I lost all the strength in my left arm in a downward motion.

I could like do the curling motion as you would a dumbbell, but I could not do the opposite. I cannot push down with my arm. Long story short, they did a MRI for me for free because people in the Philippines are so sweet.

They did it for me for free. And, and it showed two bulging discs, a badly bulging disc. And one of them was pressing on my spinal column, spinal cord, and, uh, cut off the signal to my triceps in my left arm.

And, uh, so I lost the use of that head, no feeling in my fingers in my left hand and long story short, I was scheduled for surgery. I was supposed to have surgery last week, August the eighth. And, uh, um, but a couple of weeks before my surgery was scheduled, all of a sudden I regained the use of my arm and, uh, the feeling in my fingers came back and so I called the surgeon.

I said, I don't know what to make of this, but I've regained the use of my arm and my feeling is back in my fingers. And I'm a hundred percent and I am, I feel, you know, arms full strength. And so, uh, I went to see the doctor day before yesterday and he told me that, that, uh, if I don't have symptoms, then we're not going to do surgery.

And so I don't know, I'm really grateful for that because who wants to have surgery? I sure didn't want to have it. So, uh, I may have to have it later. You know, it may just be that the disc has moved a little bit and it's kind of relieved the pressure.

It may just be a temporary thing. Um, I don't know. I would, I'd kind of like to have another MRI just to see what's going on with those discs. So typically they don't, they don't go back into place on their own.

Uh, so anyway, until the symptoms come back, I'm not going to have surgery. So very grateful for that.

Yeah. And before we go to the first, we got about, uh, those nine of us in here right now. So we're going to hopefully get some good questions, but, uh, atomic apologetics asks, is it just as hard to buy Justin dinner as it is to buy Matt slick?

Well, actually, Justin, you've, you've bought me dinner before. Cause I'm not gonna, you know, fight with a guy that beats me up with crutches. Um, no, I submitted, I let you buy me dinner. I won't do that for Matt.

So, uh, the first one I want to bring in and, and Justin, this will probably be more of a discussion between Jeff and I, but I'm bringing Jeff in. Um, and Jeff is someone who online was saying, uh, that I was making a logical fallacy or making some illogical, uh, statement.

Um, and so I don't see him on camera. I don't hear him yet. So I'll explain what he, uh, what he was saying was the fallacy while we, uh, while we wait for him, maybe he's trying to connect, but he was basically, uh, on the last show, uh, I had mentioned that there was, uh, I believe an objective way to, um, to basically be able to evaluate which religions are man-made and which religions are divine.

And the way that I objectively evaluate that is to say that man will add to what they add their own works. And in doing so, uh, I believe that what they're doing is, um, you know, you were seeing that they are, uh, going to be creating a man-made religion.

And so objective way to evaluate any world religion is to look at whether it adds human effort to getting right with God. And we could objectively look at that and be able to evaluate it. Now, I think that we had some confusion between Jeff and I, I'm going to try to give benefit of the doubt as much as possible.

Um, and I think that he was, uh, well, he, I think he was confusing the argument and basically trying to say that, um, he was flipping the argument around and, and Jeff, if you, I saw that you, you muted yourself, uh, try unmuting yourself and see, I could, I can, I, okay.

Unmuted. You look, try speaking, Jeff. Okay. Um, I don't know if he needs to check his settings to see, uh, there's a little gear at the bottom, Jeff. You can see what microphone you're using and camera and see if that helps.

Uh, but what Jeff was basically doing was he flipped the argument around and said that I was being, uh, making a logical fallacy because his argument was, um, that I was saying that, uh, basically that man cannot create a grace alone.

Soteriology. And I never made that claim when I, the claim was that man will always add to, you know, in a false religion will always add his own efforts. Um, and he's always saying he doesn't see that.

So at the bottom, if you're on a browser, Jeff on a browser, it should be at the bottom of the page. Um, okay. He's going to jump out and jump in and see if that fixes it. So we hope that that will, uh, if you're on a phone, Jay, I don't remember where it is on the phone.

You might have to tap the screen. Um, if anyone's on a phone, maybe they can figure that out. You're on an iOS device. Uh, John is in here and he may be able to put, uh, John, if you remember how to do it on the phone, we tested this out.

I just don't remember it. I'm going to have to like memorize where it is on the phone. So while John helps him, uh, get in here so we could, uh, he could explain better his position. Uh, my, my actual argument that I say that he has to do is to show, to prove that it's a logical would be to show that, um, to show that, uh, this is not objective, cause that's my argument.

The argument I'm making is this is an objective standard. It's an objective way to looking at it. And so I think it is objective because it's, it's not subjective. It's not something I, I decide now to his argument, he may make, and I'm trying to set it up while he gets in here, which may not be so good.

Um, but to the argument that I think he's going to make is, uh, can man create a soteriology that is, uh, grace-based I think that, yes, uh, I think that a person can say, well, Hey, if the, if a divine religion is going to have grace alone, I'll create one, but note, that's not my argument because my argument is that man will add his human efforts.

So anything that has human efforts is going to be manmade. That's my argument. So, um, that would be, that would be the difference there. Um, but Jeff still is not in, so that makes for dead air, which we don't want.

So I'm going to leave you in here, Jeff, once you get, once you get it figured out, what I'll do is I'm going to add, uh, Eric from, he was in the signal. Hold on. Eric is playing something, Eric, I think.

Okay. So I added him in. He's now muted. So Eric, if you, if you want to unmute yourself, whenever you're not playing the audio, one of the things with this is we, we can't do so much like we used to do or not easily, uh, the technology with that's Eric, but he's.

Playing, um, but a couple of weeks before my surgery was scheduled, all of a sudden I regained. Okay. I'm going to mute you, Eric. The use of the roller and, uh, the feeling in my fingers, that's me.

Um, so one of the things with this is I can either do this big on me. I could kind of do this with the four of us that are in here. I, so this doesn't work the same way as Google Hangouts, unfortunately, where the person who's speaking is the one that you end up seeing, uh, which was a nice feature.

So, oh, well, um, so we're waiting for Eric to either stop playing the audio and then unmute himself or for Jeff to figure his stuff out.

Uh, I don't know. I'm really grateful for that because he wants to have surgery. I, I sure didn't want that.

So, uh, I may have to have, I'm going to put both of you guys in the backstage and I'll add, and you guys just put a comment when you get it figured out. And then I'm going to add in traditional Catholic here, Justin.

So, so you know, uh, traditional Catholic, you can unmute yourself when you're ready. And I, I'm going from memory. I think your name is Peter. It's James.

James. No, not Peter. That's that's the, that's the first Pope. Peter is the first Pope, but no, my name is James.

No, he wasn't. Um, but yeah, I couldn't remember. Yes, he was. So, so let me, let me bring Justin up to speed with, with you just so that he understands your, some of your positions, uh, for any questions you have for us.

So, uh, Justin, traditional Catholic is, um, he actually wouldn't say, oh, so.

That the, okay.

Um, I'm not sure what's going on. Andrew doesn't seem to be here anymore. And okay. So there's Andrew again.

Yeah. So that was interesting. Uh, it said the room was full and I guess I got booted. That's not so good. It says someone's trying to join. It can only hold 10 people. Please ask someone to leave if you'd like to ask the new person.

So, so now we know how many people they can hold. Same as Google Hangouts, just 10 people. Um, so good to know. Um, and so, so as I was saying, Justin, uh, traditional Catholic is not a, basically he doesn't accept anything and correct me if I'm wrong, James.

He really wouldn't accept anything, uh, after, um, really Vatican too. Is that, would that be correct?

Correct. Anything after Vatican two council, uh, 1960s. I believe that Rome has departed from the one true holy Catholic traditional Catholic faith. And that Francis is not a true, any, any of the, uh, post Vatican two papal claimants are not true.

They're, uh, essentially Protestants like yourselves.

Protestants. Okay. I didn't know that part. So you, you would think that the current Pope that the Catholic church has identified is Protestant.

Well, no, you just said that the Catholic church has identified the current Francis as being Pope. That's incorrect because the holy Catholic church stands on certain dogmas and Rome rejects those dogmas.

And anyone that rejects the dogmas of the holy Catholic church or Protestants, they protest against the teachings of the Catholic church. The very definition of Protestant is someone that protests against the teachings of the one true church Jesus established 2000 years ago.

Hmm.

So, well, okay. I know you may have, you have a court. You probably came in with a question for Justin and I, can I ask you a question before you get to it? Sure. Go ahead. Well, actually I just did. So I'll ask you a second question.

Okay. So if, if the Catholic church is, you know, since Vatican two was no longer, like, how would you identify they're no longer Catholic if it's the Catholic church, the magisterium who have that authority, like there's still bishops.

There's still bishops that still hold the one true Catholic faith that are not in union with, with the Vatican two sects, such as the line of the Bishop Thuke. So there's numerous bishops that still hold that.

And therefore there's numerous priests that still hold that to the true one, true holy Catholic faith. So they're not all in line with, they're not all part of the diocese of the Vatican two sect.

So there is no Pope anymore, right?

So the, the, the, the, the, at this present time, well, the numerous times throughout the Catholic churches, 2000 year history, there there's been interims interregnums where there hasn't been a sitting Pope, and we're simply in one of those periods right now.

Now, personally, I believe that the signs that I believe we see around us, I believe that Jesus will be returning soon. And we have numerous saints in the past history of the church saying that Satan would go ahead and that, and cause an apostate apostasy to take place at the highest levels and that's what we saw at Vatican two, we saw an apostasy take place at that point officially take place whereby these individuals, they claim to be the Catholic church representative of the Catholic church, but they're not.

And we also see Jesus saying that when he returns, there's practically going to be hardly anyone holding the one true faith when he returns. So that would mean that all these billions of Catholics on earth are not holding the one true faith.

They're holding the false Vatican two false religions of faith. And so only the remnant of the very small remnant of traditional Catholics that are left are holding the one true faith.

So, yeah, I guess, and I'll, I'll just make this comment and then we could go to your question, but I guess where I got, where I'm puzzled with that is that the Catholic church claims its own authority and they're the, the ones that can interpret God's word and everything else, how could, how could individual Catholics, even if they're bishops go against the church, the magisterium, just kind of an interesting.

You keep confusing the Vatican two sect with the magisterium. For example, the Orthodox, they have they have apostolic succession as well, but their bishops and priests are not within the church that Jesus established because they separated themselves from that church 1 ,000 years ago.

So they're in the same predicament as the Vatican two sect, they have true priests and true bishops, but those bishops and priests have no authority jurisdiction and office within the church that Jesus established because they are heretics outside the church.

So Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict, who is known for being a stickler for doctrine, they're, you would say they were not, they're not true Catholics.

They're absolutely not sticklers for doctrine. I mean, if you go to vaticancatholic .com or the YouTube channel, Vatican Catholic, you'll see what you'll see. For example, John Paul II, he had that a sissy gathering twice, whereby he's engaging in worship with many different false pagan religions.

He's even receiving blessings from these false pagan gods. And he contradicted numerous infallible Catholic traditional teachings. And he's in line with Vatican two, which also contradicts numerous infallible Catholic teachings.

For example, they claim that Muslims worship the one true God. I'm sure you would agree that the Muslims do not worship the one true God. So John Paul II repeated that, which is exactly what Vatican two says and what the new catechism, 1983 catechism from the Vatican two sex teach, false religion teach, teaches, and it's not just that they believe in it, they've been pushing evolution, you know, they wouldn't even invite anybody that believes in intelligent design in their conference.

So they're, they're just a wicked Protestant religion.

Okay. So your question for us tonight, James, what do you got for us?

Yeah, well, the thing is what true traditional Catholicism teaches, which is the truth, biblical truth, is that an individual, once they're justified, they can go ahead and lose their justification if they go ahead and they commit serious sins.

And you said, Justin Peters, and I'm guessing you, Andrew, as well. I think you also believe in one saved, always saved, or the eternal security doctrine, false unbiblical doctrine. So my question to you is this, and I've asked many, the one found in the Bible is unbiblical.

Well, let's go to the Bible because in Galatians five, 19 through 21, we see right there that it's speaking to individuals in the church, Paul is speaking to individuals in the church and he's warning them not to commit certain sins, and he says, if you commit these sins, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.