February 14, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “The Sola Scriptura Conference” PLUS Jason Wallace on “Mormon Attacks on the Holy Scriptures”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 14th day of February 2017 and I want to thank everybody who has been sending me birthday wishes.

Today is my birthday and I've been getting hundreds of Birthday wishes from many of my iron sharpens iron listeners and other family friends and loved ones. And I really appreciate it more than I could possibly describe.

The Sola Scriptura Conference and the Sufficiency of Scripture

Today we have an exciting show. Ahead we have first of all during the first half hour of the program Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you the ministry of world-renowned Bible teacher and preacher John MacArthur.

He's going to be discussing the upcoming solo script Torah conference on February 24th and 25th in San Diego, California Where he will be one of four speakers and also for the remaining 90 minutes We've got on the program Jason Wallace pastor of Christ Church Which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Magna, Utah.

He's going to be discussing Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures and it's my honor and privilege First of all to welcome back to iron sharpens iron Phil Johnson of grace to you. Hey Chris, how are you?

Great and want to also if We have a drumroll from somebody, please. We've got returning to iron sharpens iron radio Buzz Taylor the Reverend Buzz Taylor who is Taking a well-deserved vacation right now and is going to be co-hosting pretty much daily whenever.

You know what? He can fit it in his schedule. But it's probably gonna be pretty much daily from now on until he goes back to his full-time employment. But it's great to have you back in the studio buzz Taylor.

Yeah, you might want to say that again because we had you on mute. I say it's good to be back.

Finally it seems like a long time and.

The return of buzz kind of sounds like a sequel to the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

But anyway, we'll try not to massacre too much.

Phil it's great to have you back on the program. It was also great to interview you for the first time face-to-face at the g3 conference. And I hope you enjoyed that conference as much as I did. I did.

Thanks. Hey, by the way, happy birthday, I appreciate that. And Well, you are going to be now just in a matter of a week and a half or so one of four speakers at the solo script Torah conference in San Diego, California.

The speakers not only include you but Michael Horton of the white horse in radio program My friend dr. Conrad and Bayway pastor of Kabbalah to Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia, Africa dr. Robert Godfrey president of Westminster Seminary in California and also as I already mentioned you.

And What specifically are you going to be speaking on under that umbrella theme of solo script Torah?

Well, I'm going to be talking about the sufficiency and authority and efficacy of Scripture.

So you're actually speaking on all of the subjects. Now I think it is very appropriate for us to have a definition of solo script Torah, especially since. Amazingly, not only are there not many not only are there many Protestants who don't even know what that means.

I can even remember vividly a Pastor of an evangelical church when I handed him a poster back in the 1990s. I handed him a poster for a debate that I was organizing between dr. James R. White and a Roman Catholic a scholar and the theme was solo script Torah and This pastor looked at that poster and said so laws script Torah.

What is that? Yeah. Yeah, I know. But not only do many evangelicals not know what that means many Roman Catholics don't know what it means. Even many apologists defending the Church of Rome either don't know what it means or are Purposely twisting what it means.

If you could give us a actual historic definition of that term.

Yeah, well, it is about the sufficiency and authority of Scripture that Scripture alone. That's what solo script Torah means. Scripture alone is the final court of appeal on all fallible not as Roman Catholics teach the voice of the church or or The rulings of the magisterium, but the Word of God alone.

Yes, and it's not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge or That the Bible is the only guide at all that we ever use or our only Authority because we do have an ultimate Authority in the scriptures, but we have lesser authorities like our elders and our local congregations.

Wives have their husbands as an authority and we could go on and on. We have authorities wherever we work typically unless we own the company or corporation that we work at so. Obviously we do have other authorities, but this is the ultimate and only infallible and inerrant authority.

Right. Yeah, I mean science can tell us things that the Bible doesn't like we know at any given moment. Sorry. I am more certain world that he gave his only begotten Son Than I am that the figure some scientists would give me about the distance from the earth to the moon is accurate.

Amen. Hierarchy of. In the hierarchy of truth and truth claims Scripture is the one final court of appeal if any other truth claim it can't possibly be true.

Amen. And the Roman Catholic apologists routinely Will love during a debate. It doesn't even matter what the actual topic that had been agreed upon is. It could be the mass. It could be the assumption of Mary it could be.

The.

Sacrament of penance it could be a number of Issues involving the divide the great divide between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Historic Protestantism. But they will typically want to steer the ship all the way back to sola scriptura because they think that is our Achilles heel because we don't have a verse in the Bible That says specifically word for word.

The Bible is our only inerrant authority. But isn't the fact that Paul's letter to Timothy 2nd Timothy 3 16 through 17 where Paul writes all scripture is God-breathed Theanostos and is useful for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be Thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Isn't that sufficient? Because of the fact that even though the Church of Rome will recognize that no other Rule of faith is God-breathed. They don't even call their Tradition even though they say it's on the same level of authority and importance as scripture.

They never call it God-breathed they even admit that so.

Isn't this a sufficient scripture to offer that? Yeah. In fact, I think that's the right text to go to second Timothy 3 Verse 16 Actually is the one they want to focus on and say well all that says it's the next verse.

That's really crucial because it teaches with scripture alone. You could be thoroughly flatly kind that you have to have in addition to script. Paul is expressly telling Timothy there that scripture is not only God breathed, but it is therefore counsel of God.

Everything you need to know. Not everything You might question or whatever but everything you need to know everything that's essential for life and godliness is Given to us in scripture and that's a claim about the Bible's Efficiency.

That's what Rome denies. They say the Bible isn't enough. You also have to have these traditions about. You know Mary and the assumption of Mary things are not breathed.

How do they handle the fact that it's not only that scripture? That some of their traditions do not come from scripture, but they actually contradict scripture.

Yeah, that's right.

How do they handle that? I mean, well, they would deny that.

Sure, they would deny that by saying what you have the wrong interpretation of scripture I get. The only the only authoritative interpretation of scripture is is what the church magisterium decides on which in effect makes The church herself the the final arbiter of what's true.

Yes.

Church alone decides what's true? Yes. It was interesting. I just arranged a debate here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania between dr Tony Costa who is a professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary and my friend Robertson genesis a Roman Catholic apologist that I've known since the 1990s and He when he used that phrase as a charge against Rome That they believe in solo Ecclesia.

It was interesting that Robertson genesis never contradicted that because that is not actually a a Roman Catholic phrase, that's a phrase that that Protestant apologists used to accurately describe How the Roman Catholic Church views their ultimate authority?

But what was also interesting is when When dr. Tony Costa brought up repeatedly that only scripture is God breathes Dr. St. Genesis repeated so what and who cares? Basically, he was trying to say that only means it's a little more special.

There's something special about it, but he didn't Seem to indicate in his opinion that there was anything Totally unique about the scripture that totally Overrided any tradition of a church or or magisterial?

Body or anything like that, right?

He might say it's unique, but he would not acknowledge that. That is a claim of superior authority. Paul claiming that scripture is the highest authority because it's got three whole point of what Paul was and.

We could go through the list with a Roman Catholic with this verse or these two verses. And say, okay. Well you believe in prayer to Mary and the Saints. Is that in the scripture because Paul the Apostle Paul who you view also as a inerrant Apostle of God is there it as far as when he Breathed out through God breathing through him The Word of God and had it transcribed you believe that this is an inerrant Letter that he is writing an infallible letter and he is saying that the Word of God Thoroughly equips the servant of God.

For every good work is praying to Saints and Mary a good work and obviously they would have to say yes, it is a good work. Why is it in the scripture then if this we could go through everything that they do that is not a part of Biblical practice or doctrine that we could go through the sacrament of penance.

We can go through transubstantiation. Although they might claim to have arguments in the Bible for that. But we could go through the assumption of Mary. We can go through the sinful sinlessness of Mary.

And we could go through a lot of things that they do that we would find heretical and abhorrent. And they could not claim for many if not Most of them that they had any basis in the scripture and therefore it would make Paul a liar in this text, wouldn't it?

Yeah, no every major difference. But it's sometimes called the Reformation. Really came down to. I think everything else would fall into place because everything we disagree on home teaches that is contradictory to scripture and Everything they teach that is not found Bible itself.

Now not to just single out Roman Catholics. My co-host Reverend buzz Taylor you were a for a period of time even as a pastor a charismatic. Now didn't did you for did you ever find a conflict before you actually abandon the charismatic movement and and Continuationism.

Did you ever find a conflict between sola scriptura and The charismatic movement. Because it seems that the charismatic movement is looking for a word From God that is not in the scripture. There's some kind of extra biblical Wisdom and guidance and word that they are craving.

Well, yes, and of course if you look.

If the Bible allows for the gift of prophecy. Well, that means you're getting some kind of a revelation outside of the Bible, doesn't it? And see but what I found in the circles I was in at least. They they didn't have enough of any theology just to be blunt with you.

To even make that an issue of discussion because you know. They they claim they were all Bible believing Christians. And because you know, yeah people come up to you and say well. Why don't the Baptist believe in tongues?

I mean isn't in the Bible. It gets down to just a matter of interpretation, but their interpretation was anything goes, you know. They would interpret any way you like to that. That was a different matter altogether than saying that it's a different authority.

Well Phil you know, you were involved in the strange fire conference. You know that there are some very brilliant Charismatics out there. You have folks who are involved in Sovereign Grace Ministries.

Who seem to have a thorough grasp on the Word of God and even claim to be? theologically reformed. You have people like Wayne Grudem. You have a host of people that are brilliant. Have you ever heard a reason from them why their reviews do not?

Conflict with 2nd Timothy 3 16 through 17 and even the the basic principle of the pillar of Sola Scriptura the Reformation watchword.

Well, I've heard them attempt a defense of that. And in fact, the classic example is Wayne Grudem's book on modern product New Testament prophecy. Which has an appendix on the print. That's really quite good.

The appendix is the best if if you read and and Genuinely affirm what he said the appendix. He rendered moot. He's in defending Sola Scriptura. He's defending the sufficiency of Scripture if Scripture is truly sufficient.

Then I don't need extra new revelation from God and that I think is the modern. Technology teaches them to be listening for new words new words of prophecy prophetic messages. Or as Wayne Grudem describes it impressions that come in your mind.

Just things that he believes God brings to mind. He regards that as prophecy. Even though he acknowledges it's fallible. It's not reliable. And in fact, I think he would probably acknowledge It's usually wrong.

It's wrong more often than it is, right? He still calls it a word from God and that is a de facto Denial of the sufficiency of Scripture if I need fresh words from God. And I need them then and there is a denial of the print.

There were some who would say for example.

Agabus was telling about there's going to be a famine. Well, the Bible is not going to tell you there's going to be a famine in Jerusalem that you got to prepare for. But that. Was you know an extra biblical extra biblical revelation from a prophet?

They will look at it for things like that that aren't specifically mentioning doctrine.

Yeah, but.

But I mean Agabus is in the Bible so we have that record and Scripture refers to natural gifts that were active in the apostolic right? Yeah era as the proofs of an apoc and They were the they were the sort of genuine apostle if he can hands on you and you had these miraculous abilities.

Then you knew this was a true apostle and you better obey his authority. None of that is necessary or even operative.

Once.

Scripture is complete. We have the Word of God. We don't need that sort of biblical revelation anymore. Well, yeah, I.

Agree with you there than that, but that's what they find difficult to see. I mean as far as they're concerned everything that they believe is right from the pages of Scripture.

Yeah.

Well, it's pretty amazing to me that a man as knowledgeable as Wayne Grudem would say that these things that come to his mind That are that are errant and fallible are prophecy. Why on earth was there a death penalty for the prophets in the Old Testament if they would falsely prophesy?

It doesn't seem.

Into the New Testament either. It's it seems to me that you have the gift of prophecy as it's described in Scripture in order to accommodate all these false prophecies that float around. And for what reason all that does is is Confused people if you can deliver a prophecy from God and it's fallible.

I can't think of anything more troubling or confusing and I just don't see the point in it. But it's and it's a sign that Protestantism has slipped badly. Oh, yeah from the original Reformation stance now.

So the Scriptura also does not mean.

Something that a lot of our fundamentalist friends and brothers Think it means although many of them would not even use that Latin phrase. They would just say the Bible alone. But it does not mean that we cannot benefit from the great heroes of the faith like the Reformers like the Puritans like Spurgeon and many of these other people who have written commentaries and written a Wealth of books that are a treasure trove for us.

In fact you Began the Spurgeon archive. So obviously you would believe that there is great value of reading and absorbing the truth and Learning from the great minds of the past and present in order to help ourselves be more equipped to be Christians and and and do the duties that we are Commanded to do in this life and and so on.

This is not violate that at all. Does it the solo script or principle doesn't violate that at all does it?

No, that's right. And in fact Spurgeon himself made that point really well. He said that would make a person think that I with my Bible alone Can figure out everything that's in here and understand the meaning of words without the aid of a Bible dictionary, you know, or In a Bible apps that are named or located at things like that that you cannot make sense of in Scripture Without someone to teach you what they mean, but that doesn't that doesn't deny.

That's just an acknowledgment that God has given to the church. Teachers that no teacher is in 40 isn't as high as Scripture. Let's understand some things that are difficult to understand in Scripture acknowledges said this Epistles that there are some and so we need teachers.

And then those scriptures even say that we should not let just anyone teach. So it's obviously an important role.

Yeah, right.

Yeah the teaching is a gift that God gives to some people and teachers are a gift that God gives to the church and why would He give that gift if it was utterly argument and like you said it it's you Fundamentalists don't like to is setting himself up as the highest authority.

Yeah, when you say things like I don't need any commentaries. I don't need any creeds or confessions. I just need my Bible. You are really claiming even if unconsciously to be the greatest mind within Christendom that has ever lived because just because a man is dead and His role as a teacher is only available to us in print doesn't mean that he is any less of a teacher and it doesn't mean that his writings are supposed to be used on par with Scripture or that the Accusation is true that they are being elevated to the par of Scripture now, of course, we know.

The writings of mere mortal men can be abused and be elevated to that level. Either consciously or unconsciously and that obviously is also wrong. I mean, I I Know people who I believe I don't know with infallible certainty, but I know people personally that I think Have really adopted theological views on the soul.

The soul part the soul bedrock of the fact that These were the teachings of their hero. And that's and that's the sole reason that they really have adopted this for their own view not because they've been convinced through the scriptures.

That they're true but you know like the old saying That the anti Calvinist will hurl at us so you just believe that because John Calvin taught it. Well, no because I believed it before I even knew who John Calvin was and somebody taught me in the scriptures.

What it what with what these things were? But having said that there are some of our fellow reformers who reformed Christians who may adopt something just because Calvin or Owen or or Edwards or Spurgeon has taught them.

Yeah, I think that's a tendency.

To think more highly of certain people than we ought to think and. You know kind of thing in there. My advice is be wary of anyone like that. Don't follow anyone.

That's how cults get started. In fact, I you may chuckle at this. I have a friend who I remember years ago said to me Well, if John MacArthur believes it then I believe it too because I believe everything John MacArthur believes I said.

Well. You know John MacArthur would not be happy to hear you say that. He would want you to be a Berean and Just use his his writings as a guide to delve deeper into the scriptures. Not to take what he says at face value and believe it.

Well now it sounds to me like once you have spoken at this conference coming up that. After you you're done everybody can just go home. What are some of the other subjects that are going to be covered?

You know, I don't know. I haven't seen a list of what the other speakers are doing. I I intend rather than doing a historical lecture or anything like that I will take a passage of Scripture and deal with it.

I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to do 2nd Timothy 3 16 and 17 or perhaps Hebrews 4 12. Which says you know, the Word of God is one of those two texts. I'll probably deal with yeah.

So like the rest of us, you can't wait to hear what you're going to say.

Well, this conference is going to be held February 24th and the 25th at New Life Presbyterian Church in San Diego, California. For more details, you could go to Sola500 .com. That's Sola500 .com. Any final words that you could have share with our listeners.

Phil.

Yeah.

I just wanted to point out that that is the weekend before the Shepherds Conference at Grace Church with John MacArthur and I think they deliberately planned it that way so that people who are planning their travel could actually go to the conference in San Diego on that weekend and.

Then come to the Shepherds Conference the following week. And who will be at the Shepherds Conference?

Oh.

Don't even ask me something like that. I'm not looking at. Obviously John MacArthur's going to speak. Some of the regular speakers. Tom Pennington, I think I will be there. Mark Jones is speaking this year.

That should be really good and.

Of course Al Moller's there every year. Actually I have a list right now. I have John MacArthur Albert Moller Ligon Duncan Mark Dever Michael Reeves Ian Murray Stephen Lawson Stephen Nichols HB Charles jr. Conrad and Bayway you Miguel Nunez Tom Pennington and Mark Jones.

And I would say about two-thirds of those men have been guests on iron sharpens iron and for more detail.

I hear my own name in that and think one of these things is not like the other.

So Todd Friel said to me when he was on the roster at at the g3 conference Well, if anybody wants to know about that conference, it's shepherds conference org. Shepherds conference org and there's no apostrophe in that obviously shepherds conference org and The other conference that we mentioned before you can go to sola 500 comm sola 500 comm and I know that the grace to you website is gty org.

Gty org any other contact information you care to share. No, that's good. Well Phil. I know that you are in the middle of a writing project in fact I would love to get you on the program to discuss whatever you're writing in the near future and I thank you for Interrupting that the very hectic schedule that you have before the shepherds conference To be on our program today.

All right thank you very much brother and Coming up next we have as I stated earlier Jason Wallace. Jason Wallace who is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation in Magna, Utah.

I think I erroneously said it was Christ Church Earlier, but it's Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah and He is going to be discussing Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures. It strikes me as humorous that That I remember a Roman Catholic apologist on the journey home program Which is a program where Marcus grodi a former Presbyterian who converted to Roman Catholicism.

Interviews primarily Those who have left Protestantism and have become Catholic. There are some other exceptions people who Were unconverted Jews and so on. But it's primarily a program featuring the interviews of former Protestants who converted to Catholicism and I can remember It being said on that program that sola scriptura Can lead to all kinds of heresy including the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

And the reason why that's humorous is the Mormons don't believe in sola scriptura. They have other books that they believe are.

Of.

Greater value than the scriptures like the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenant. Doctrine and covenants. And the Jehovah's Witness organization or cult Does not believe that a person can.

They can be a true Berean and read the scriptures and see for themselves what God is teaching there. They believe that the the watchtower and Trek Society in Brooklyn, New York, which I believe may be moving its location for the first time in history.

They are the Basically the only ones who can determine Doctrine and teaching and theology from the Bible, but. So it's a ridiculous charge to say that sola scriptura leads to that. Anyway, we're gonna be coming back after this break With our guest Jason Wallace.

So don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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Mormon Attacks on the Holy Scriptures and the Authority of the Bible

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today, or at least our second guest I should say. For the next 90 minutes is Jason Wallace the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah a suburb of Salt Lake City and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor.

Jason Wallace and we are discussing Mormon attacks on the holy scriptures and In studio with me, by the way pastor Jason his reverend buzz Taylor Who has been a co-host of mine in the past and Had to go back to his full-time employment, but is currently on vacation and is with us today.

And he is also one of the voices on your documentary your first documentary that you did on Mormonism.

Yes.

Well before we even go into the main topic at hand. Regarding the Mormon attack on the scriptures. Let's go into a bit about this new documentary that you are producing.

Another one basically following that up with something that deals with Mormons have heard that the Bible actually is reliable and.

Yes, they believe that the Book of Mormon trumps The Bible and I'm assuming the Doctrine and Covenants Pearl Grave Price as well. Because they don't believe the Bible has been thoroughly accurately translated.

Am I right?

Yeah, was that. Was that something that was taught and believed in.

In.

The 19th century and earlier years. Or was that just something that was taught when they conveniently changed major doctrine like when they outlawed polygamy because of the United States government's threat to arrest them and seize their property and when they Changed their minds miraculously and welcomed blacks into the priesthood.

Because they were in fear of losing tax-exempt status and so on. Was it was this view that No dead prophet could trump a living prophet. Was that a view that was always held? Wow, that's that's interesting.

Well, what do they mean by that though? Do they mean that they don't believe their prophecies or infallible or that their their everyday conduct is not necessarily infallible. For instance, even the Roman Catholic Church does not believe that the Pope is sinless.

But they believe that when he speaks ex cathedra and defines dogma, that's when he's infallible. What what did they what did the Mormons believe about their prophets in that regard? Let me repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We apologize to those of you Who emailed questions for Phil Johnson? But we only had a half hour with Phil and the time just flew by too quickly to address any of your questions on the issue of solo script aura, although That issue is not very far afield from what we're talking about now.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Who says is it true that Mormons are just as dishonest and deceptive as Jehovah's Witnesses? By saying that they are true Christians. I guess you'd have to be careful in answering that Jason because I'm assuming that we can't impugn the motives of every Mormon when they say that because they may be just as deceived as Anybody anybody else who's been brainwashed with falsehood?

But anyway, if you could go if you could answer that.

He was and under him they started revamping their whole Schizophrenia among the typical Mormons that on the one hand, you know, why would anyone say we're a cult? Why would anyone say that we're not Christians?

You must be mean, you know, we're just like you. He said, you know, we say, you know, we don't speak against other churches. We say bring you all bring your truth and we'll add to it one sense of Christianity plus mentality on the other hand to join any of the churches because all of them are wrong all their professors are corrupt all their creeds are by an abomination in his sight and so it's.

On the one hand, we're the only true and living church on the face of the earth and on the other hand. Yeah, as I've mentioned on the program before I.

Met a couple of Mormon elders, which is a misnomer because they were very young men and They have a totally different dictionary for those words but They had a very different approach to Mormons that I had met in the 80s.

In the 1980s that is Who were a lot clearer in their Propaganda that The Mormon Church was the only true church. Although they were extremely nice They were friendly. They even asked me to pray which that always strikes me as odd when someone who believes you have a false Faith why they would ask you to pray.

I don't understand that. But but they made it clearer than these young men that I met in the streets of Carlisle about a year or so ago where They had Said you may have heard that Mormons believe that the only true church.