February 14, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “The Sola Scriptura Conference” PLUS Jason Wallace on “Mormon Attacks on the Holy Scriptures”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 14th day of February 2017 and I want to thank everybody who has been sending me birthday wishes

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Today is my birthday and I've been getting hundreds of Birthday wishes from many of my iron sharpens iron listeners and other family friends and loved ones

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And I really appreciate it more than I could possibly describe Today we have an exciting show

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Ahead we have first of all during the first half hour of the program Phil Johnson Executive director of grace to you the ministry of world -renowned

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Bible teacher and preacher John MacArthur He's going to be discussing the upcoming sola scriptura conference on February 24th and 25th in San Diego, California Where he will be one of four speakers and also for the remaining 90 minutes

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We've got on the program Jason Wallace pastor of Christ Church Which is an

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Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Magna, Utah He's going to be discussing

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Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures and it's my honor and privilege First of all to welcome back to iron sharpens iron

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Phil Johnson of grace to you. Hey, Chris. How are you?

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Great and I want to also if we have a drumroll from somebody please we've got returning to iron sharpens iron radio

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Buzz Taylor the Reverend Buzz Taylor who is Taking a well -deserved vacation right now and is going to be co -hosting pretty much daily whenever You know when he can fit it in his schedule

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But it's probably gonna be pretty much daily from now on until he goes back to his full -time employment

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But it's great to have you back in the studio Buzz Taylor Yeah Yeah, you might want to say that again because we had you on mute

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I say it's good to be back finally it seems like a long time and The return of buzz kind of sounds like a sequel to the

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Texas Chainsaw Massacre But anyway, we'll try not to massacre too much

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Phil it's great to have you back on the program It was also great to interview you for the first time face -to -face at the g3 conference

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And I hope you enjoyed that conference as much as I did. I did. Thanks I appreciate that and Well, you are going to be now just in a matter of a week and a half or so one of four speakers at the solo script

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Torah conference in San Diego, California The speakers not only include you but Michael Horton of the white horse in radio program

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My friend, dr. Conrad and Bayway pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa dr.

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Robert Godfrey president of Westminster Seminary in California and also as I already mentioned you and What specifically are you going to be speaking on under that umbrella theme of solo script

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Torah? Well, I'm going to be talking about the sufficiency and authority and efficacy of Scripture So you're actually speaking on all of the subjects

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Now I think it is very appropriate for us to have a definition of solo script

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Torah, especially since Amazingly, not only are there not many Not only are there many

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Protestants who don't even know what that means. I can even remember vividly a

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Pastor of an evangelical church when I handed him a poster back in the 1990s

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I handed him a poster for a debate that I was organizing between dr. James R white and a

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Roman Catholic a scholar and the theme was solo script Torah and This pastor looked at that poster and said so la script

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Torah, what is that? Yeah, I know

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But not only do many evangelicals not know what that means many Roman Catholics don't know what it means even many apologists

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Defending the Church of Rome either don't know what it means or are Purposely twisting what it means if you could give us a actual historic definition of that term

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Yeah, well, it is about the sufficiency and authority of Scripture that Scripture alone

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And that's what solo script Torah means Scripture alone is the final court of appeal on all truth claims

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Scripture is the only infallible God -breathed Authoritative Word of God that we have it's not the not as Roman Catholics teach the voice of the church or or the rulings of the magisterium, but the

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Word of God alone decides The truth or falsehood of every truth claim

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Yes, and it's not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge or That the

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Bible is the only guide at all that we ever use or our only

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Authority because we do have an ultimate Authority in the scriptures, but we have lesser authorities like our elders and our local congregations

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Wives have their husbands as an authority and we could go on and on we have authorities wherever we work typically unless we own the company or corporation that We work at so Obviously, we do have other authorities, but this is the ultimate and only infallible and inerrant authority, right?

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Yeah, I mean science can tell us things that the Bible doesn't necessarily say like we know

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I Presume we know the exact distance from the earth to the moon at any given moment

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Science can tell you that and you can't either affirm or deny that Based on scripture, but what sola scriptura teaches is that when scripture speaks?

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That is the highest authority. I am more certain that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

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Son Than I am that the figure some scientist would give me about the distance from the earth to the moon is accurate

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Amen hierarchy of in the hierarchy of truth and truth claims Scripture is the one final court of appeal if any other truth claim

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Contradicts sure. He can't possibly be true Amen and the

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Roman Catholic apologists routinely Will love during a debate.

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It doesn't even matter what the actual topic that had been agreed upon is

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It could be the mass. It could be the assumption of Mary it could be the sacrament of penance it could be a number of Issues involving the divide the great divide between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism historic

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Protestantism But they will typically want to steer the ship all the way back to sola scriptura

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Because they think that is our Achilles heel because we don't have a verse in the

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Bible that says Specifically word -for -word the Bible is our only inerrant authority

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But isn't the fact that Paul's letter to Timothy? 2nd

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Timothy 3 16 through 17 where Paul writes all scripture is

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God -breathed Theanostos and is useful for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for Every good work, isn't that sufficient?

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Because of the fact that even though the Church of Rome will recognize that no other Rule of faith is

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God -breathed. They don't even call their Tradition, even though they say it's on the same level of authority and importance as scripture.

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They never call it God -breathed they even admit that so Isn't this a sufficient scripture to offer them?

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2nd Timothy 3 verse 16 Actually is the one they want to focus on and say well all that says is that all scripture is

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God -breathed It doesn't say that You know other things are not equally authoritative

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But it's the next verse that's really crucial because it teaches the absolute sufficiency of scripture

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With scripture alone. You could be thoroughly equipped for every good work now that flatly Roman Catholic claim that you have to have

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Church tradition in addition to scripture in order to have the full counsel of God Paul is expressly telling

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Timothy there that scripture is not only God -breathed but it is sufficient to equip the man of God thoroughly therefore it's a claim that scripture is

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Contains the full counsel of God everything you need to know not everything You might question or whatever, but everything you need to know everything that's essential for life and godliness

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Is given to us in scripture, and that's a claim about the Bible's Sufficiency that's what

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Rome denies. They say the Bible isn't enough. You also have to have these traditions about you know

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Mary and the Assumption of Mary and Purgatory and other issues that aren't revealed in scripture

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They believe the authoritative basis for those things is church tradition, which they regard as equally

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Authoritative to scripture though as you say they cannot make the claim that those things are not breathed

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How do they handle the fact that it's not only that scripture? That some of their traditions do not come from scripture, but they actually contradict scripture

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Yeah, that's right How do they handle that? I mean well, they would deny that Sure, they would deny that by saying what you have the wrong interpretation of scripture

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Only the only authoritative Interpretation of scripture is is what the church magisterium decides on which in effect makes

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The church herself the the final arbiter of what's true rather than scripture, so it's a that's a full -on

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Contradiction of the principle of sola scriptura. It's I think I think James White calls it

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Sola ecclesia yes Church alone decides what's true Yes, it was interesting.

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I just arranged a debate here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania between dr Tony Costa who is a professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary and my friend

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Robert St. Genes is a Roman Catholic apologist that I've known since the 1990s and He when he used that phrase as a charge against Rome That they believe in sola ecclesia.

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It was interesting that Robert St. Genes never Contradicted that because that is not actually a a

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Roman Catholic phrase. That's a phrase that that Protestant apologists used to accurately describe

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How the Roman Catholic Church views their ultimate authority? But what was also interesting is when?

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When dr. Tony Costa brought up repeatedly that only scripture is

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God breathes Dr. St. Genes repeated so what and who cares?

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Basically, he was trying to say that only means it's a little more special. There's something special about it, but he didn't

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Seem to indicate in his opinion that there was anything totally unique about the scripture that totally

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Overrided any tradition of a church or or magisterial? Body or anything like that, right?

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He might say it's unique, but he would not acknowledge that that is a claim of superior authority, which is

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Exactly what it is. It's Paul claiming that scripture is the highest authority because it's

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God breathed and to say, you know, so what to that is to Basically miss the whole point of what

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Paul was telling Timothy and We could go through the list with a

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Roman Catholic with this verse or these two verses And say, okay.

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Well you believe in prayer to Mary and the Saints Is that in the scripture because?

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Paul the Apostle Paul who you view also as a inerrant

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Apostle of God is there it as far as when he Breathed out of through God breathing through him

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The Word of God and had it transcribed you believe that this is an inerrant

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Letter that he is writing an infallible letter and he is saying that the

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Word of God Thoroughly equips the Servant of God for every good work is praying to Saints and Mary a good work and obviously they would have to say yes, it is a good work then why isn't it in the scripture that if this we could go through everything that they do that is not a part of Biblical practice or doctrine that we could go through the sacrament of penance we can go through transubstantiation

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Although they might claim to have arguments in the Bible for that But we could go through the assumption of Mary.

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We can go through the sinful sinlessness of Mary and we could go through a Lot of things that they do that we would find heretical and abhorrent and they could not claim for many if not most of them that they had any basis in the scripture and therefore

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It would make Paul a liar in this text, wouldn't it? Yeah, no, and that's a very good point.

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I think every major difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics boils down to this issue

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In fact, that's why solo scriptura is sometimes called the formal principle of the

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Reformation the Every difference between Rome and the

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Protestants really came down to the issue of biblical authority is scripture the final authority or is the church and If we could agree on that I think everything else would fall into place because everything we disagree on Everything Rome teaches that is contradictory to scripture and everything they teach that is not found in scripture added to scripture

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Is based on their view that church tradition is as authoritative or even more authoritative than the

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Bible itself Now not to just single out Roman Catholics My co -host

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Reverend Buzz Taylor you were a for a period of time even as a pastor a charismatic

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Goes telling on me again Now didn't did you did you ever find a conflict

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Before you actually abandoned the charismatic movement and and Continuationism Did you ever find a conflict between solo scriptura and The charismatic movement because it seems that the charismatic movement is looking for a word

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From God that is not in the scripture. There's some kind of of extra biblical

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Wisdom and guidance and word that they are craving. Well, yes, and of course if you look

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If the Bible allows for the gift of prophecy Well, that means you're getting some kind of a revelation outside of the

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Bible doesn't it and see but what I found in the circles I was in at least They They didn't have enough of anything

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Just to be blunt with you to even make that an issue of discussion because you know They they claim they were all

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Bible believing Christians and because you know, you have people come up to you and say well Why don't the Baptists believe in tongues? I mean isn't in the

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Bible It gets down to just a matter of interpretation, but their interpretation was anything goes, you know

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They would interpret any way you like to that. That was a different matter altogether than saying that it's a different authority well

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Phil you know, you were involved in the strange fire conference, you know that there are some very brilliant Charismatics out there you have folks who are involved in Sovereign Grace ministries

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Who seem to have a thorough grasp on the Word of God and even claim to be? theologically reformed

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You have people like Wayne Grudem You have a host of people that are brilliant.

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Have you ever heard a reason from them why their reviews do not? Conflict with 2nd

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Timothy 3 16 through 17 and even the the basic principle of the pillar of Sola Scriptura the

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Reformation watchword Well, I've heard them attempt a defense of that And in fact, the classic example is

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Wayne Grudem's book on modern prophecy New Testament prophecy Which has an appendix on the principle of Sola Scriptura.

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That's really quite good the appendix is the best part of the book and I've often said that if if you read and and Genuinely affirm what he says about Sola Scriptura in the appendix then the rest of the book is

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He rendered moot In defending Sola Scriptura, he's defending the sufficiency of Scripture if Scripture is truly sufficient

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Then I don't need extra new revelation from God and that I think is the most difficult fallacy that modern

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Pentecostals and Charismatics face because their theology teaches them to be listening for new words new words of prophecy prophetic messages

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Or as Wayne Grudem describes it impressions that come in your mind Just things that he believes

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God brings to mind he regards that as prophecy Even though he acknowledges it's fallible.

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It's not reliable. And in fact, I think he would probably acknowledge It's usually wrong.

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It's wrong more often than it is, right? He still calls it prophecy still treats it as a word from God and that is a de facto

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Denial of the sufficiency of Scripture if I need fresh words from God And I need them then and they're necessary then

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What I'm saying is scripture isn't sufficient and that is a denial of the principle of Sola Scriptura There were some who would say for example

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Agabus was telling about there's going to be a famine Well, the Bible is not going to tell you there's going to be a famine in Jerusalem that you got to prepare for But that was you know an extra biblical extra biblical revelation from a prophet.

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They will look at it for things like that That aren't specifically mentioning doctrine Yeah, but But I mean

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Agabus is in the Bible so we have that record and the scripture refers to those supernatural gifts that were active in the apostolic right era as the proofs of an apostle those had a specific reason for a specific time and They were the they were the sort of calling cards of an apostle

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That's what proved a person was a genuine apostle if he can lay hands on you and you had these miraculous abilities

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Then you knew this was a true apostle and you better obey his authority none of that is necessary or even operative once Scripture is complete.

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We have the Word of God. We don't need that sort of extra biblical revelation anymore

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Well, yeah, I agree with you there than that But that's what they find difficult to see me as far as they're concerned everything that they believe is right from the pages of Scripture Yeah, well, it's pretty amazing to me that a man as knowledgeable as Wayne Grudem would say that these things that come to his mind

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That are that are errant and fallible are prophecy Why on earth was there a death penalty for the prophets in the

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Old Testament if they would falsely prophesy? It doesn't seem that brought into the

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New Testament either. It's it seems to me that What what they actually have done is

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Diminished the quality of the gift of prophecy as it's described in Scripture in order to accommodate all these false prophecies that float around and for what reason all that does is

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Is confuse people if you can deliver a prophecy from God and it's fallible I can't think of anything more troubling or confusing and I just don't see the point in it

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But it's hugely popular these days and it's a sign that Protestantism has slipped badly

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From the original Reformation stance on Sola Scriptura now Sola Scriptura also does not mean

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Something that a lot of our fundamentalist friends and brothers Think it means although many of them would not even use that Latin phrase.

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They would just say the Bible alone But it does not mean that we cannot benefit from the great heroes of the faith

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Like the Reformers like the Puritans like Spurgeon and many of these other people who have written

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Commentaries and written a wealth of books that are a treasure trove for us.

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In fact you Began the Spurgeon archive. So obviously you would believe that there is great value of reading and absorbing the truth and Learning from the great minds of the past and present in order to help ourselves be more equipped to be

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Christians and and do the duties that we are Commanded to do in this life and and so on This is not violate that at all.

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Does it the Sola Scriptura principle doesn't violate that at all, does it? No, that's right. And in fact Spurgeon himself made that point really well

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He said it would be only arrogance that would make a person think that I with my Bible alone

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Can figure out everything that's in here and understand the meaning of words without the aid of a

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Bible dictionary, you know, or In a Bible Atlas, how do you know where the towns that are named are located?

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Things like that that you cannot make sense of in Scripture without someone to teach you what they mean

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But that doesn't that doesn't deny Sola Scriptura That's just an acknowledgment that God has given to the church teachers and That no teacher is infallible.

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So his authority isn't as high as Scripture itself But teachers are there to to help us understand some things that are difficult to understand in Scripture acknowledges

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In fact Paul said this of Peter's or rather Peter said this Epistles that there are some things in there that are hard to understand and So we need teachers

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And then those scriptures even say that we should not let just anyone teach. So it's obviously an important role.

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Yeah, right Yeah But but it also says teaching is a gift that God gives to some people and teachers are a gift that God gives to the church

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And why would he give that gift if it was utterly unnecessary? That's just an absurd

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Argument and like you said, it's usually made by fundamentalists type fundamentalist types who don't like to think or learn or or whatever as And ultimately a person who adopts that view is setting himself up as the highest authority

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Yeah, when you say things like I don't need any commentaries. I don't need any creeds or confessions.

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I just need my Bible You are really claiming even if unconsciously to be the greatest mind within Christendom that has ever lived because just because a man is dead and His role as a teacher is only available to us in print doesn't mean that he is any less of a teacher and it doesn't mean that his writings are supposed to be used on par with Scripture or that the

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Accusation is true that they are being elevated to the par of Scripture now, of course we know

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The writings of mere mortal men can be abused and be elevated to that level

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Either consciously or unconsciously and that obviously is also wrong. I mean, I I I know people who

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I believe I don't know with infallible certainty, but I know people personally that I think

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Have really adopted theological views on the sole The sole part the sole bedrock of the fact that These were the teachings of their hero

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And that's and that's the sole reason that they really have adopted this for their own view not because they've been convinced through the scriptures

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That they're true but you know like the old saying That the anti Calvinist will hurl at us so you just believe that because John Calvin taught it

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Well, no because I believed it before I even knew who John Calvin was and somebody taught me in the scriptures

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What it what what these things were? but having said that there are some of our fellow reformers who reformed

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Christians who may adopt something just because Calvin or Owen or or Edwards or Spurgeon has taught them.

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Yeah, I think that's a tendency of fallen human mind to think more highly of certain people than we ought to think and You know, there are there are even teachers who sort of cultivate that kind of thing in their

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Followers and my advice is be wary of anyone like that. Don't follow anyone. Yes.

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That's how cults get started In fact, I you may chuckle at this I have a friend who

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I remember years ago said to me Well, if John MacArthur believes it then

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I believe it too because I believe everything John MacArthur believes I said, well, you know John MacArthur would not be happy to hear you say that He would want you to be a

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Berean and Just use his his writings as a guide to delve deeper into the scriptures not to take what he says at face value and believe well now it sounds to me like once you have spoken at this conference coming up that After you you're done.

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Everybody can just go home. What are some of the other subjects that are going to be covered? You know, I don't know. I haven't seen a list of what the other speakers are doing

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I I intend rather than doing a historical lecture or anything like that I will take a passage of scripture and deal with it

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I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to do 2nd Timothy 3 16 and 17 or perhaps

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Hebrews 4 12 which says, you know, the Word of God is living and powerful

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One of those two texts I'll probably deal with yeah, so like the rest of us You can't wait to hear what you're going to say

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Yeah Busy at the moment to give it much thought but as the date looms,

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I'm gonna have yes Well, this conference is going to be held February 24th and the 25th at New Life Presbyterian Church in San Diego California for more details, you could go to Sola 500 comm that's

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Sola 500 comm any final words that you could have share with our listeners Phil Yeah I just wanted to point out that that is the weekend before the

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Shepherds Conference at Grace Church with John MacArthur and I think they deliberately planned it that way so that people who are planning their travel could actually go to the conference in San Diego on that weekend and Then come to the

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Shepherds Conference the following week and who will be at the Shepherds Conference Don't even ask me something like that.

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I'm not looking at Obviously John MacArthur is going to speak Some of the regular speakers

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Tom Pennington, I think I will be there I'd mark Jones is speaking this year.

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That should be really good and Of course Al Moller's there every year actually

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I have a list right now I have John MacArthur Albert Moller Ligon Duncan Mark Dever Michael Reeves Ian Murray Steven Lawson Stephen Nichols HB Charles jr.

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Conrad and Bayway you Miguel Nunez Tom Pennington and Mark Jones And I would say about two -thirds of those men have been guests on iron sharpens iron and for more detail

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So Todd Friel said to me when he was on the roster at at the g3 conference

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Well, if anybody wants to know about that conference, it's shepherds conference org

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Shepherds conference org and there's no apostrophe in that obviously shepherds conference org and The other conference that we mentioned before you can go to Sola 500 calm

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Sola 500 calm and I know that the grace to you website is gty .org

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gty .org any other contact information you care to share I Know that's good.

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Well Phil. I know that you are in the middle of a writing project In fact, I would love to get you on the program to discuss whatever you're writing in the near future

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And I thank you for interrupting that the very hectic schedule that you have before the shepherds conference

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To be on our program today. All right Well, thank you very much, brother. Okay and Coming up next we have as I stated earlier

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Jason Wallace Jason Wallace who is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church, which is an

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Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation in Magna, Utah. I think I erroneously said it was

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Christ Church earlier, but it's Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah and He is going to be discussing

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Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures It strikes me as humorous that that I remember a

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Roman Catholic apologist on The journey home program which is a program where Marcus Grodi a former

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Presbyterian Who converted to Roman Catholicism? interviews primarily

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Those who have left Protestantism and have become Catholic. There are some other exceptions people who?

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Were unconverted Jews and so on but it's primarily a program featuring the interviews of Former Protestants who converted to Catholicism and I can remember

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It being said on that program that sola scriptura can lead to all kinds of heresy including the

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Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and The reason why that's humorous is the Mormons don't believe in sola scriptura.

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They have other books that they believe are of Greater value than the scriptures like the

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Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenant Doctrine and Covenants And the

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Jehovah's Witness organization or cult does not believe that a person can they can be a true

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Berean and read the scriptures and see for themselves what God is teaching there they believe that the the

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Watchtower and Tract Society in Brooklyn, New York, which I believe may be moving its location for the first time in history

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They are the Basically the only ones who can determine

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Doctrine and teaching and theology from the Bible, but So it's a ridiculous charge to say that sola scriptura leads to that Anyway, we're gonna be coming back after this break

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With our guest Jason Wallace So don't go away We'll be right back after these messages

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Forward slash iron sharpens today Welcome back.

38:32

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today, or at least our second guest I should say for the next 90 minutes is

38:40

Jason Wallace the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah a suburb of Salt Lake City And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor

38:51

Jason Wallace Chris privilege to be back with you and we are discussing

38:56

Mormon attacks on the holy scriptures and In studio with me, by the way pastor

39:04

Jason his reverend buzz Taylor who has been a co -host of mine in the past and Had to go back to his full -time employment, but is currently on vacation and is with us today

39:17

Oh, yes, we've met and he is also one of the voices on your

39:22

Documentary your first documentary that you did on Mormonism Yeah, that's

39:40

I remember that yes, oh well Before we even go into the main topic at hand regarding the

39:49

Mormon attack on the scriptures Let's go into a bit about this new documentary that you are producing

39:59

Yeah, we we've turned out one last time I met with you. I think The magical Mormon scriptures we released just a couple of weeks ago and we're working on another one

40:12

Magic Mormon scriptures basically shows how Mormonism's view of scripture changes radically, you know, they they changed the

40:21

Book of Mormon. They changed the Doctrine and Covenants They've changed the

40:26

Bible and The gist of it is Mormonism is not a religion based on any book per se because all scriptures are subject to the current prophet and And now we're following that up with something that deals with the typical attacks that Mormons have heard about the

40:48

Bible and trying to answer those and and show them that the Bible actually is reliable and That and then show them what it actually teaches

40:59

Yes They believe that the Book of Mormon trumps

41:05

The Bible and I'm assuming the Doctrine and Covenants Pearl Grave Price as well

41:11

Because they don't believe the Bible has been thoroughly accurately translated

41:17

Am I right? Yeah, I mean they'll call the Book of Mormon the most perfect book in the world and things like this but the reality is

41:27

They don't view the Book of Mormon or any of their standard works the way we would view the Bible None of them can be used to correct the prophet

41:37

We've got Ezra Taft Benson who's LDS prophet on video saying that the living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works

41:49

He says unlike Mormon He says rather beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets for the living prophets always take precedent

42:00

So You know for Christians, there's a temptation to say well, you know, they they've they've added the

42:07

Book of Mormon to the Bible they really I mean, yes, they have but That doesn't mean they view the

42:15

Book of Mormon the way we view the Bible It's the living prophet that is the real source of truth

42:21

And if that contradicts what previous prophets have said, that's only as you really don't understand them Yeah, I was was that something that was taught and believed in The 19th century and earlier years or was that just something that was taught when they conveniently changed major doctrine like when they outlawed polygamy because of the

42:47

United States government's threat to arrest them and seize their property and when they Changed their minds

42:55

Miraculously and welcomed blacks into the priesthood

43:02

Because they were in fear of losing tax -exempt status and so on was it was this view?

43:08

that No dead prophet Could trump a living prophet.

43:14

Was that a view that was always held. I think it was implicit if you look at the way they dealt with Joseph Smith and the changes he made from when from from 1830 to 1844 you have, you know radical redefinition of Mormonism you have the addition of temples you have a celestial marriage you have

43:36

Plurality of gods right there at the end. You have all kinds of things that were not part of original

43:43

Mormonism Book of Mormon denounces polygamy Smith probably started practicing it the mid 1830s with Fanny Alger But they were denying it basically right up until the year before he died and you know, then it started to become more widely known, but It's become especially so recently you'll have a lot of Mormon apologists say well we

44:09

We don't really claim that prophets are infallible Wow, that's that's interesting.

44:16

Well, what do they mean by that though? Do they mean that they don't believe their prophecies or Infallible or that their their everyday conduct is not necessarily infallible for instance even the

44:28

Roman Catholic Church does not believe that the Pope is sinless, but they believe that when he speaks ex cathedra and Defines dogma that's when he's infallible.

44:39

What what did they what did the Mormons believe about their prophets in that regard? It's somewhat similar except Honestly, the the current ones are even moving further away from things than that You know the the traditional

44:58

Roman Catholics would still say the Pope is infallible when he speaks Ex cathedra on things but Mormons Because of the internet because of the the obvious contradictions

45:14

There seems to be a new spin put on things where they claim that the that even in prophecies

45:23

Prophets aren't necessarily infallible But they're still speaking for God you're supposed to follow them even if they're wrong

45:30

Let me repeat our email address. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

45:38

chris Arnzen at gmail .com We apologize to those of you

45:45

Who emailed questions for Phil Johnson? But we only had a half hour with Phil and the time just flew by too quickly to address any of your questions on the issue of sola scriptura, although That issue is not a very far afield from what we're talking about now

46:03

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York Who says is it true that Mormons are just as dishonest and deceptive as Jehovah's Witnesses By saying that they are true

46:15

Christians. I guess you'd have to be careful in answering that Jason because I'm assuming that we can't impugn the motives of every

46:24

Mormon when they say that because they may be just as deceived as Any anybody else who's been brainwashed with falsehood?

46:32

But anyway, if you could go if you could answer that The vast majority of Mormons would think they were being honest in saying that they're

46:41

Christians but That's because they have no no sense of who the biblical

46:47

God is or what the biblical gospel is Very few of them have any sense

46:55

There used to be a more line -in -the -sand mentality and the last the last stalwart of that was

47:04

Bruce McConkie where Mormons would literally say we're we're not

47:10

Christians. We're Mormons and With Gordon B Hinckley the the former prophet who's dead now

47:18

He was involved in public relations for the church and under him they started revamping their whole message to where we're

47:28

Christians, too and So there's somewhat of a schizophrenia among the typical

47:34

Mormons that on the one hand, you know, why would anyone say we're a cult? Why would anyone say that?

47:39

We're not Christians. You must be mean, you know, we're just like you Gordon B Hinckley was on Larry King years ago, and he said, you know, we say, you know

47:50

We don't speak against other churches. We say bring you all bring your truth and we'll add to it and so it was

47:57

There there's a in one sense a Christianity plus mentality on the other hand

48:06

They still hold very staunchly to the first vision where Joseph is told he's not to join any of the churches because all of them are wrong all their professors are corrupt all their creeds are by an abomination in his sight and so it's

48:23

On the one hand we're the only true and living church on the face of the earth and on the other hand we're Christians, too which sort of implies for you, but That that schizophrenia is the general mindset

48:40

Yeah, as I've mentioned on the program before I met a couple of Mormon Elders which is a misnomer because they were very young men and They have a totally different dictionary for those words but They had a very different approach to Mormons that I had met in the 80s

49:09

In the 1980s that is Who were a lot clearer in their?

49:16

Propaganda that The Mormon Church was the only true church

49:23

Although they were extremely nice They were friendly They even asked me to pray which that always strikes me as odd when someone who believes you have a false

49:33

Faith why they would ask you to pray. I don't understand that But but they made it clearer than these young men that I met in the streets of Carlisle About a year or so ago where They had

49:49

Said you may have heard that Mormons believe that the only true church. That's not true.

49:54

We think that we're Christians just like you So this was obviously something that I told the young man do you realize that this is

50:05

A novelty What you'd have just said that has never existed in the

50:11

Mormon religion since its inception until fairly recent in history and They seem to be either

50:19

Not divulging the truth on the matter or they seem to be completely ignorant of it. But anyway

50:25

This is a totally different approach of public relations, isn't it? Oh, definitely The funny thing is

50:31

I mean, they've been Working very hard for a number of years trying to get themselves

50:37

Recognized as Christians and yet if you listen to their general conference, which occurs twice a year is semi -annual conference in the spring in the fall

50:47

I You'll routinely hear them say give testimonies that they're members of the only true and living church.

50:53

Yes. I've heard from some of the Clips that you had as a part of your documentaries some very recent clips

51:02

Of of those assemblies where that very thing was was proudly proclaimed

51:09

Yeah, I mean McConkie's the last Apostle I know of that That used really hardcore language.

51:17

I mean he would say things like that the the Roman Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon and we were her illegitimate children our

51:26

Protestants are their illegitimate children and The creeds of Christendom were inspired by the whisperings of demons

51:33

I mean for him it was black and white There was the Mormon Church and the

51:38

Church of Satan. Did they get that from the Chick tracks? Just kidding, of course

51:46

But we're actually going to go to a break right now And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is

51:55

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com

52:01

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

52:08

USA and If you need to remain anonymous for some reason perhaps you are a

52:14

Latter -day Saint or a Mormon Or perhaps your your family is Mormon. You just don't want to identify yourself.

52:21

We understand Just to indicate that you want to remain anonymous don't include your name

52:27

That will be fine. But if it is not involving something personal private Something like that Please include at least your first name your city and state in your country or residence if you live outside of the

52:41

USA and don't go away, we're gonna be right back after these messages not only with a continuation of our discussion on the

52:52

Mormon attack on scripture, but also We're going to be airing some clips from some new documentaries

53:00

Will these be from one documentary these clips or are they from a couple of documentaries? And that's after Mormonism what

53:12

Now what Okay. Well, we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Jason Wallace on Mormonism at Chris Arnson at gmail .com

53:22

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages

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I am

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01:03:11

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the remaining hour is

01:03:18

Jason Wallace pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah a Suburb of Salt Lake City.

01:03:25

We are discussing the Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is

01:03:32

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com And we do have a couple of people waiting

01:03:39

To have their questions asked and answered and we will get to you as soon as possible I just want to make a couple of quick announcements

01:03:46

Just to let you know about some upcoming Interviews on iron sharpens iron that you might want to mark your calendars for tomorrow

01:03:56

February 15th, my old friend Ken samples a former Host along with Hank Hanegraaff of the

01:04:03

Bible Answer Man. In fact, Ken at one time was the only theologically reformed member of the

01:04:10

Bible Answer Man team there on the panel Ken samples who also

01:04:16

Has been heard on the Whitehorse Inn and has written a number of books He is going to be discussing a new book hot off the press that he has written

01:04:27

God among sages why Jesus is not just another religious leader

01:04:33

So I hope you tune in tomorrow for that interview on Thursday we have

01:04:40

Matthew McMahon of the Puritan mind we have on Friday Mike Abendroth is going to be a guest on the program on Monday the 20th of February.

01:04:54

We have Charlie Liebert of seven day creation .com is

01:05:00

Going to be a guest in the program. I believe he is just going to be talking about basic answers to skeptics question questions about the

01:05:13

Christian faith and I Look forward to having Charlie back on on Tuesday the 21st

01:05:21

We have for the very first time and Mickle Haney or Mickle Haney She is the author of the book

01:05:31

Gosnell if Any of you for forgetting who Gosnell was.

01:05:37

Dr. Gosnell he is considered the worst mass murderer in history because of the

01:05:45

The the murder of infants that he was involved in as an abortionist and not just The the murder that we already know takes place within the womb of pregnant women but this even to the the hearing and sight of pro choice people should

01:06:11

Strike horror within their hearts and minds when they hear about dr. Gosnell who is now serving.

01:06:18

I believe a life sentence In prison, well and Mickle Haney will be nickel Haney will be discussing that book

01:06:26

Gosnell that she has written on the 22nd of February Wednesday the 22nd we have

01:06:33

Don Kistler one of the greatest living experts on the Puritans returns to iron sharpens iron and that's just to list a handful of our upcoming

01:06:44

Guests. Well, we have back On the air with us

01:06:49

Jason Wallace. We are discussing the Mormon attacks on the Holy Scriptures. We do have

01:06:55

Pastor Sterling Vander Worker of Shepherds Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina who has a question for you?

01:07:03

pastor Jason The Mormons that are visiting my door are slipping into soft into some softening positions

01:07:11

And who are not really willing to take a firm stand? Notably two young girls on mission.

01:07:19

I asked when the change to permit young women Proselytize and lead others into the era of Mormonism Neither would or could engage me what explains the changes in the last five to seven years

01:07:32

Is this a purposeful tactic or simply post -modernism affecting even the

01:07:37

Mormons Wow I didn't even know that they were having young ladies go door -to -door to proselytize the

01:07:44

Mormon religion Yeah, they've actually been doing that Good number of years now.

01:07:50

I forget how long it's been since they've been going door -to -door They would have what they call sister missionaries their sisters instead of elders

01:07:59

But they would have them serving at Temple Square 30 years ago but Going door -to -door

01:08:07

I think Was after that but it's been going on for a while as far as the post -modernism

01:08:17

Mormons have had to reinvent themselves So many times they were I've joked that they were postmodern before post -modernism cool

01:08:27

You have to understand they started out as an end times doomsday cult

01:08:33

They were saying that Christ was going to be returning roughly 1890 and they were

01:08:41

Telling their their critics that within within the generation then living

01:08:48

There was going to be a wholesale slaughter of all non -mormon in this in the world 1834

01:08:57

I'm pulling this off something that was roughly you had Harley Pratt Saying if there is an unbelieving

01:09:04

Gentile left on this continent 50 years hence That the Book of Mormon would have demonstrated itself to be false

01:09:14

Well, of course that came and went and They Initially denied polygamy

01:09:22

Our you know first polygamy was denounced in the Book of Mormon, then they started practicing it, but they practiced it secretly until 1852

01:09:32

Their scriptures section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants from 1835 until the 1876 printing

01:09:42

Basically the last pretty before that was 1869. So from 1835 to 1869 they were saying in their scriptures

01:09:51

That they didn't believe in polygamy and yet they were practicing it And Under pressure from the government in 1890.

01:10:01

They give up polygamy, which was Supposedly a commandment from God That they could never give up on Then the end didn't come and so they go from sort of being this

01:10:16

Premil doomsday cult to being almost post mill now that they you know They're going to take instead of gathering all the

01:10:22

Saints to Zion for the end of the world now they've started going out and You know trying to build churches in other countries in the 20th century and then of course into today

01:10:37

I mean the early Mormons to a great extent they weren't trying to establish churches in all these different countries

01:10:42

They were calling them all to come here for the final judgment Well, of course that changes now.

01:10:47

They're building, you know temples everywhere over the world and And Blacks Very explicitly.

01:10:58

This is in Ernest Plato latter -day saints They were they were cursed and it was only after everyone else

01:11:06

Was reconciled to God that then the blacks could be released from the curse, but that changed in 1978 and so they just They don't have any hard and fast

01:11:21

Position that they've ever held and so as that's gotten exaggerated and As technology has made that more and more available

01:11:33

Basically they've gone to a very emotive Presentation, you know, it used to be

01:11:39

Elders would stand and argue scripture with you and they would quote or as many in God's many and things like this

01:11:45

They don't do any of that stuff anymore Now it's you know, we're just 19 years old and we're just here to share and It's a sharing of experiences and the end of and the leadership is

01:11:59

I think Capitulating to the pressure of the culture they don't believe much anymore and they actually used to be true believers

01:12:09

But to a great extent I think their leadership is somewhat going like the mainline Protestant churches are going in and somewhat like Pope Francis They're accommodating themselves to believe much of anything

01:12:24

Well, thank you pastor sterling and Keep sharing the word about iron sharpens iron in North Carolina and beyond Just a word there

01:12:35

Chris. I remember back in the mid 80s being visited by a couple girls from the Mormon Church So at least way back then it was happening.

01:12:43

I know By the way, I said I made an error earlier

01:12:49

I Announced that my friend Charlie Liebert was was coming to be a guest on the 20th of of February His ministry says it's not seven -day creation that would be a new doctrine, wouldn't it?

01:13:13

It's six -day creation calm, so my She's the

01:13:18

Charlie Liebert. I tell you a pastor Jason. I am not quite mentally over this flu that I had

01:13:24

And I apologize to everybody if I don't seem like my old self today. I'm not quite on my best game today

01:13:35

But Let's see. We have RJ in White Plains, New York who asks what does pastor

01:13:45

Jason know about the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

01:13:50

Saints are they just as heretical as The Mormons are and I believe they are now known as the community of Christ or something like that Yes, they changed their name.

01:14:03

I want to say about a dozen years ago or so The reorganized church

01:14:09

Has not been as overtly heretical they they were basically the people who came together around Emma Smith and her sons and Some of you know many of the disaffected people who had not followed

01:14:28

Brigham Young to Utah after Joseph Smith was killed Reorganized church

01:14:35

They denied that he practiced polygamy for years much less than he told a multitude of gods so They're still strange.

01:14:45

I mean they're they still believe in the Book of Mormon And the Book of Mormon is a mess in itself.

01:14:51

It doesn't teach the later doctrines of Celestial marriage and things like this

01:14:56

But they they they do have a temple. I've actually been in their temple because it's open to the public

01:15:03

They're in Independence, Missouri and It's fairly clear that they have accommodated themselves to the culture

01:15:15

Much like I was saying, I think the Mormon Church is doing today, but historically no not quite as overtly

01:15:24

In your face about About such things they somewhat more like the

01:15:31

Seventy Adventist where you have the claim of a modern prophet

01:15:39

And you have some heresy around it, but if you don't have God being a superman and you becoming a god yourself and stuff like that So not only do they not believe that they will become gods if they're faithful Latter -day

01:15:55

Saints They also reject that God the Father was once a man like us who evolved into Godhead I Believe so.

01:16:06

It's it's been a while since I dealt with them. I Visited them back maybe 15 years ago.

01:16:12

And so it's a little bit of a blur But because you don't have very many of them out here in Utah Yeah, and I believe they have some of them have female ministers and No possible as well

01:16:27

Okay, and I remember having years ago an email dispute with a female minister in the reorganized church and she was

01:16:39

Clearly very soft on the sin of homosexuality. I don't know if that's across the board with them, but But well, anyway, thank you

01:16:48

RJ for the question What Specifically more should our listeners know about how the

01:16:57

Mormons attack the Holy Scriptures and try to Undermine its reliability its authority its inerrancy

01:17:08

Obviously that is not the image that they portray that's not what People immediately are going to think when they meet

01:17:16

Mormons when they see Mormon television commercials They are going to think that they love the scriptures.

01:17:23

In fact, I know that they sometimes give away King James Bibles on their commercials

01:17:30

But anyway, if you could tell us more that our listeners should be aware of in this this realm sure

01:17:38

Mormons will tell you that in their articles of faith. They they state that they believe the Bible is the

01:17:44

Word of God But they they have one little qualifier in as far as it's correctly translated now what they mean by that is not simply translation from Hebrew and Greek but Transmission and a whole host of other things basically, whenever the

01:18:02

Bible disagrees with what their living prophet says the Bible's wrong and What you see to a great extent

01:18:12

And this is what I was alluding to earlier there are no scriptures by which anyone can challenge the living prophet and So they try to bury the

01:18:24

Bible under the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants the Pearl of Great Price They'll try to bury it under the

01:18:31

Apocrypha they'll try to bury it under a host of other supposedly lost books and things like this and I sent you an audio clip from former

01:18:43

BYU professor Hugh Nibley who was the chief Apologist for the LDS Church back in the in the 60s 70s, and I think even into the 80s he he's commenting on the dog comedy library and He's just gushing over it about how it be used to To reshape

01:19:07

Christianity, let's let's let's play that clip and then you could explain a little bit more after I play it

01:19:14

Beginning with Moses and the prophets he explained everything to them out of the scriptures and then it tells us their eyes were open

01:19:21

They began to understand we don't have a word of what he told them after the 40 days Now all these newly discovered writing claimed to be that teaching are they genuine or aren't they?

01:19:30

Well for one thing they hang together. They hang together beautiful They give a very consistent picture of the gospel for another thing nobody would ever have invented them

01:19:37

These aren't odds and ends in the manner of the most ex when they take tatters of Oriental philosophy and everything and throw them together into Patchwork systems.

01:19:44

This is a very consistent gospel exactly as we have it ourselves So he's defending the

01:19:50

Gnostic Gospels Is that a new thing for Mormons Well, that is actually from the 60s

01:20:00

Wow that that long ago because you still have this idea in your head of the Mormons being those old -fashioned fundamentalists albeit cults cultists but you you have this different view of them and I Never would have guessed that they

01:20:19

I don't know why I'm so surprised that they have Put their seal of approval on the

01:20:25

Gnostic Gospels, but it is for some reason surprising to me Anything more to add before I play the other clip that you have

01:20:39

This is from academic and from you know popular side and What we have in the second clip

01:20:48

To give people a sample of the scriptures that he's gushing of Okay, this is actually being narrated by our mutual very dear friend

01:20:59

Bill Shishko Who you all have been hearing advertise his new program a visit to the pastor's study

01:21:07

That's heard every Saturday 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE 540 a .m.

01:21:16

Calm That's Pastor Bill Shishko a fellow Orthodox Presbyterian And once again, we have the with Reverend buzz

01:21:24

Taylor sitting here as my co -host We have the Presbyterians outnumbering the Reformed Baptists again, but here

01:21:32

Did you say it should Well, let's start your own show buzz

01:21:40

Here is Pastor Bill Shishko, I don't know if I even wants me to identify himself

01:21:46

As reading the gospel a part of the Gospel of Thomas of Missoumi Jesus said the kingdom of the

01:21:58

Father is like a certain man who wanted to kill a powerful man in his own house He drew his sword and stuck it into the wall in order to find out whether his hand could carry through Then he slew the powerful man

01:22:11

Jesus said he who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I Myself shall become he and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him

01:22:21

Simon Peter said to him let Mary leave us for women are not worthy of life Jesus said

01:22:27

I Myself shall lead her in order to make her male so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males

01:22:35

For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven Wow And By the way for any of you who tuned in late that was that was

01:22:50

Chris's pastor No, it was never my pastor. He's a good friend of okay I've never been a

01:22:56

Presbyterian Thanks be to God, but anyway Pastor Bill Shishko is a dear friend but I have to remind everybody that if you tuned in late that was not a

01:23:10

Reading of the Bible or something that we approve of that was the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas that a lot of liberals

01:23:18

Will appeal to it's isn't it interesting Pastor Jason that you'll have liberals who deny the the reliability of the scriptures

01:23:30

Who will cling to things like this instead, you know, it's just amazing to me mind -boggling

01:23:36

Yeah If you view scripture as a mixture of truth and error then it's never going to be your ultimate test of truth you are or your prophets going to be and so in order to Play down what the

01:23:56

Bible says against their current prophet They they try to bury it under the sea of other things

01:24:04

They try to bring up lost books such as in the

01:24:09

Bible you have the book of Gat Jasher the

01:24:15

Book of the the axis element and things like this and they say see these are lost

01:24:21

These are you know, the Bible's incomplete and since it's incomplete you can't trust it.

01:24:26

You have to trust our prophet. I assume that Since they really make a doctrine out of the baptism for the dead and Women being saved in childbirth that they that is something else they point to as the fact that they are

01:24:52

A the only true religion because nobody else that claims to be

01:24:57

Christian Baptizes on behalf of the dead or believes that women in a real sense of salvation being born again, etc

01:25:06

Are are saved through childbirth, but if you could comment on that Yeah, I mean they they love to pick and choose parts out of the

01:25:15

Bible to try to use it against biblical Christians You know, they'll pick things like baptism for the dead in in first Corinthians and say that Obviously This is biblical and we're doing it and you're not doing it

01:25:31

They take they take obscure passages out of context and impose a meaning on them and ignore all the rest of the

01:25:38

Bible so when when the Bible says That God has always been God.

01:25:44

They say well that's been wrongly translated when they say that he knows of no other gods they say that's been mistranslated and so, you know, it's it's

01:25:56

It's disingenuous. They don't really believe the Bible. They believe what their prophets that are telling them and Just appealing to the

01:26:04

Bible in a twisted fashion to to try to Undermine those who actually do believe it

01:26:14

Now just out of curiosity have you ever come to a solid conclusion on what first Corinthians 15 29 actually means and reference to baptism for the dead

01:26:24

Well Paul is clearly responding to a previous letter that was in response to his previous letter and We get one side of the conversation

01:26:40

I don't I don't Think I'd be willing to throw myself in front of the train over any of the interpretations

01:26:45

But the best I see is he doesn't say why we are baptized for the dead

01:26:50

But why they are baptized for the dead? and so I think there's a there's

01:26:59

It doesn't point to a Christian. There's there's some who Understand it.

01:27:05

Otherwise, what's clear is that? The Bible says primate that there are only a limited number of understandings and none of them are the

01:27:13

Mormon understanding And people may be wondering why the the Mormons have the the largest, you know

01:27:20

Genealogical library in the world at least I think they have the largest one in the world that's because they baptize for the dead and they want to make sure that they

01:27:31

Someone a bat is baptized on behalf of nearly every living or should I say nearly every person ever born?

01:27:39

That they can document isn't that the whole reason behind the genealogical library? Oh, most definitely.

01:27:44

I I was speaking back in October in some churches down in Southern, California and I was relating a story that you you hear from time to time of Someone typically a young woman will go to be baptized or this list of people and She'll look up through the water and she'll see spirits lined up around this big baptismal and That every time she's put down in the water one will smile and disappear

01:28:21

And then they get to the end of the list and somebody's still standing there weeping horribly, you know, and she says, please please check the list and sure enough, they've missed someone and they baptize her for that person and She and the spirit smiles and disappears and as I'm relating this story that I've heard

01:28:43

You know a few times over the years this young lady in the back becomes very agitated and she's just about jumping up and down She says she's former

01:28:51

Mormon. She says if I've heard that story, I've heard it a thousand times It is very much part of this whole mystical

01:29:02

Undercurrent in Mormonism and when we return from well, actually before we go to the break

01:29:09

Do you have anything further you want to add in way of explanation about that? Reading of the

01:29:15

Gospel of Thomas the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas The Gnostic Gospels, all you have to do is read them to see that they stand out like a source

01:29:28

They're presenting a different God, a different gospel The Gospel of Judas as an example, you know

01:29:35

National Geographic did this this huge deal about it and how they picked the few sane parts in it to try to Undermine the actual scriptures, but if you actually read the thing, you know, it's it's normal Gnostic nonsense and That's the reason that we're we're putting this in the video 99 % of Mormons that have heard of the

01:30:02

Gospel of Thomas have never read it and So, you know, we're doing this to show them

01:30:11

This is All right, we're going to go to our final break right now

01:30:18

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:30:25

if you have a question for Jason Wallace about the Mormons Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence unless you need to remain anonymous for some particular private and personal reason

01:30:38

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01:34:41

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01:36:03

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin if you just tuned us in for the last hour and the next 25 minutes to go approximately our guest

01:36:12

Has been and will continue to be a Jason Wallace pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah Which is a congregation within the

01:36:21

Orthodox Presbyterian Church In studio with me is my co -host the

01:36:27

Reverend Buzz Taylor a member of a local PCA congregation currently retired from pastoral ministry, but you never know what the future holds and If you'd like to join us on the air

01:36:38

Our email address is Chris Arnsin at gmail .com Chris Arnsin at gmail .com

01:36:45

Before I go to a couple of our listeners waiting for their questions to be asked and answered pastor

01:36:50

Jason Something jarred my memory or triggered my memory in regard to My friend

01:37:00

Charlie Liebert's ministry six day creation calm and the reason why

01:37:05

I bring that up is How do Mormons explain the biblical account of creation in Genesis When in reality as you know, the

01:37:18

Mormons do not actually believe That God created anything out of nothing

01:37:23

X nil ho as the phrase is that he reorganized matter

01:37:30

That already existed in eternity past because matter according to the Mormons is eternal

01:37:36

If you could explain how do they address the creation account in Genesis? Which would be

01:37:41

I believe a form of twisting the account or attacking the very? scriptures

01:37:49

Yeah, typically they They don't deal with the

01:37:54

Bible very much They they don't Very much.

01:38:00

I mean there there are some seminary classes. There's some Some other classes that take place that they go through some of these things a little bit but as far as creation story typically what they would do is they would spin it that this

01:38:18

Exalted me if they know if they know their theology. Okay, that's not a given for a lot of them but if they traditional

01:38:26

Mormon theology Elohim is an exalted man from another planet who?

01:38:35

takes and create or takes and reforms existing matter into this world and he and his spirit wives have these spirit children and they he makes a body for Adam and Eve and They sin so that they can become mortal and provide

01:38:58

Bodies for these spirit children they had to break the second commandment that was given not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in order to keep the first commandment which was to be fruitful and multiply and so they view the fall as a triumph and Mormons don't really tend to get into this stuff very deeply.

01:39:21

They're not very self -reflective They don't they don't ask philosophical questions that often of any of this kind of stuff

01:39:28

Much less biblical questions in reality. They shouldn't call it the fall of Adam. They should call it the elevator

01:39:36

One of their one of their apostles literally called it a fall upward, yeah Bruce McConkie called it one of the greatest blessings ever given to man was the fall of Adam Wow Now, let me let me ask you about something on occasion when we discuss these things

01:39:59

I'd laugh I giggle And I don't and I don't intend to sometimes when you hear things like this that are so aberrant and strange and bizarre

01:40:10

Yeah, I have an uncontrollable Reflex I just start to giggle and now

01:40:16

I don't mean to insult any Mormons that might be listening I know that there are

01:40:21

Mormons in Carlisle who are aware of my program But is that is that completely inappropriate to laugh when you hear certain things like this that are so strange they defy reason and logic

01:40:36

I've been over backwards to try to speak the truth in love I mean our our main video is entitled and earnestly to Latter -day

01:40:44

Saints. And so yeah, I try not to laugh and Create any stumbling blocks and yet at the same time

01:40:52

The positions are just so ridiculous under any scrutiny

01:41:00

We we've produced we've produced the main video and that's at LDS video on the internet

01:41:06

LDS video and There's a tab for other videos. We've we've produced a number of others that are meant to be feeders to that one is the

01:41:17

God of Brigham Young Brigham actually taught that Adam was

01:41:22

Elohim that he brought one of his spirit wives with him and they said they had it reached

01:41:31

Godhood and then they fell again and then they laid a fire then they after falling then

01:41:39

Went back to being God again, but the So we did the

01:41:45

God of Brigham Young The vanishing vanishing Lamanites the it was the burning of your bosom from God After Mormonism atheism and then the magical Mormon scriptures we push the envelope on that one somewhat to just grab their attention because They try to tune these things out and sometimes

01:42:11

Pushing their buttons a little bit You know not not our insulting them but You have such a conditioned response against listening to any claims of truth that we we started out with a with a hundred -year -old silent movie of a magician pulling things out of a hat and We showed scriptures appearing and disappearing.

01:42:36

We had puffs of smoke Things like this, but I mean when you when you realize that you're a lot that your prophets have lied through their teeth according to the church today you know, we

01:42:52

We've tried to keep the focus on official statements versus official statements, but when when you realize in the history of the church

01:43:01

Joseph Smith says What a thing it is to be accused of having seven wives when I can only find one

01:43:08

I'm an I'm as innocent today as I was 14 years ago and Then you put that side -by -side with a statement

01:43:17

That's an official statement from LDF org Official church statement that says that he had somewhere between 30 and 40 wives at the time

01:43:27

Yeah, and and we have to remind our Mormon friends Whenever they try to use a parallel to excuse these kind of things like I have repeated this before but when

01:43:41

I had Mormon missionaries In my living room in the 1980s when

01:43:46

I was a brand -new Christian. I Brought up the racism of Mormonism How they did not believe that blacks?

01:43:56

Could ever achieve any state of being even in the afterlife afterlife other than being a slave of whites in heaven

01:44:07

The Mormon in my living room the young man He was with an older gentleman, but the young elder which is kind of an interesting phrase the young elder

01:44:18

He said to me. Yeah, but you you're a Baptist and there are

01:44:23

Many Baptists who were and are in the Ku Klux Klan. How do you explain that?

01:44:29

My answer to him was I believe that there will be many Baptists in hell now. I know my Presbyterians will

01:44:35

Presbyterian friends here will say amen But I said

01:44:41

I am a Baptist and I believe that there will be Baptists in hell do you believe that your prophets could possibly be in hell do you believe that they have said something so a

01:44:52

Horrible that they would be deemed Wicked and evil and damned beings.

01:44:58

I said I'm not standing By The words of some moron who claims to be a

01:45:06

Baptist and and I'm not calling him my brother either but anyway, this would be in the same regard with this this outright lie that he

01:45:17

Joseph Smith was a was in a monogamous marriage You can't get around the fact that he was also their chief founding prophet, am

01:45:26

I right? Definitely and You know you'll have

01:45:32

Mormons today who will say well Of course he lied and David committed adultery and had

01:45:39

Uriah killed But what they like to point out is or what they don't like to recognize is the lies were not just their prophet

01:45:48

Making offhand statements the lies were in their scriptures Yeah, you have to understand

01:45:54

Doctrine and Covenants has the same authority to them as the Sermon on the

01:45:59

Mount It is as much scriptures as anything in the

01:46:06

Bible John 3 16 everything else Doctrine Covenants is just as much scriptures and for from 1835 to 1870

01:46:19

Sorry 1869 Was the last printing that included included it for 34 years in their scriptures in numerous printings

01:46:30

They were saying We believe that one man should have one wife and one woman but one husband except in case of death when each is at liberty to marry again and Now there's a there's a word game going on there

01:46:49

Reality is They're lying in the statement

01:46:55

You didn't did you notice anything different in what I just said between the man and the woman? No, I did not says we

01:47:04

Says in as much as this church has been accused of fornication polygamy we state that we believe that one man should have one wife and and One woman but one husband except in case of death

01:47:24

Is it the One woman shall have but one husband Yeah, you notice it didn't say that one man should have but one wife.

01:47:35

Oh Okay So there was a there was a wink wink nod nod

01:47:42

But it's in their scriptures This isn't this isn't Joseph Lying as an individual.

01:47:50

This is the church lying to the world. John Taylor Not not your that means, right?

01:47:59

John Taylor in 1850 is questioned about the rumors of polygamy when he's speaking in France and He And so he says

01:48:19

I'll suffice it to read from a statement of our beliefs and he reads this To counteract these claims that he that they're practicing polygamy

01:48:30

Well, of course the reality is he's got about six wives at the time

01:48:37

So it's not just I mean it's their prophets and apostles in this

01:48:45

Yeah, you can't you can't use a parallel about the two different accounts of how many angels were at the tomb of Jesus Being different in the the different gospel accounts

01:48:57

Because of the fact that these things were said by Joseph Smith in response to charges that he was a polygamist

01:49:05

There's a totally different There's a totally different concept about when the there are apparent

01:49:12

Contradictions in the scriptures that can be obviously settled when you harmonize them but Go ahead.

01:49:21

I'm sorry They love to take

01:49:26

Bart Ehrman they love to take the right, you know these radical skeptics and Anything they can to trash the

01:49:33

Bible the the popular Mormon conception of the Bible's translation Is that it gets translated from from Hebrew to Greek from Greek to Latin from Latin to?

01:49:45

German maybe back into Greek again from from from there to Middle English from there to modern

01:49:53

English and then maybe back again to German and then you know It's just and it's like running something through 20 different Google translators

01:50:00

And then the idea is well who even knows what it says anymore They They feed this kind of idea that It's not that the

01:50:12

Bible has been translated You know that it's been handed down in Hebrew from Hebrew to Hebrew to Hebrew to Hebrew to Hebrew and then translated into English You know, they have this idea that has been translated so many times

01:50:26

That no one has a clue what the original was. Well, we don't know what the original was They love to bring up textual issues

01:50:34

And it's like do you actually want to do you actually want to respond to that? Well, most of them don't it's just they try to throw as much up against the wall as they can against the

01:50:45

Bible To to discredit it. They say that there's 42 ,000 different denominations because the

01:50:51

Bible's so Unclear Wow, they have even a greater number than the Catholics claim

01:50:58

Well, the number actually comes from Gordon Conwell It's their their

01:51:03

Center for world Christianity or something like that. I forget the exact title and you know what they neglect to point out is that there's a couple of hundred

01:51:14

Roman Catholic denominations according to the way they count that because Every country in which the

01:51:22

Roman Catholic Church is present counts as a Every church and then there's churches that are not directly

01:51:33

Under the Roman Catholic Church, but that recognized the supremacy of the Pope and those count separately every country that they're in Gets counted as one

01:51:44

The more the the Mormon Church the official Mormon Church gets counted, you know It's a hundred and something because how many countries they're in and so, you know, the reality is this is this is a number they've ripped out of context and Most people don't don't know where it comes from.

01:52:05

They don't know You know what to respond to it and they just assume it's true

01:52:10

And of course the reality is there are a whole bunch of people out there But very very few of them actually believe the

01:52:16

Bible is the inerrant Infallible holy inspired word of the true living

01:52:21

God So if you could give a word of warning to our listeners

01:52:29

Who are being deceived when they hear public figures that are Mormon? Identify themselves as Christian.

01:52:36

I know many Christians who what maybe that's an exaggeration.

01:52:43

I know a disturbing number I don't know if it's many but I know I have met and spoken with a disturbing number of Christians Who believe

01:52:50

Glenn Beck is a brother in Christ? I've heard some even say the same things of Mitt Romney and others but Mormons are more prone

01:53:05

Moran's in the public I are more prone to identify themselves as Christian these days than as Mormon or as a

01:53:11

Latter -day Saint for instance Mitt Romney and Orrin Hatch when they give speeches Where they identify their faith

01:53:19

They will most typically identify themselves as Christian and we may have listeners who are being deceived by this.

01:53:25

What do you have to say? to these folks, especially with the Great popularity of Glenn Beck.

01:53:32

I happen to really enjoy Listening to Glenn Beck when he's speaking on politics because I have a lot of Agreement with him on political issues, but I also know that he is either

01:53:44

Unintentionally or purposely being deceptive by claiming to be a Christian by claiming

01:53:49

He believes in the pillars of the Christian faith in regard to Christ's death and Christ being the

01:53:54

Messiah And so on that, you know, he's using very often the same

01:54:00

Vocabulary with a different dictionary, but if you could if you could let our listeners know a word of warning there sure,

01:54:09

I Mean just it just is an illustration Bruce Jenner is a man no matter how he may identify himself

01:54:18

Mormons are not Christians no matter how many help a man in themselves. And so you know

01:54:27

We tease each other you're a Baptist. I'm a Presbyterian But in terms of who is God who is man?

01:54:33

What is sin? Who is Jesus Christ? What is salvation? We're all we're in lockstep with one another you're you're 1689

01:54:41

Confession is based on the Westminster Confession to which I hold You know, we both believe the

01:54:47

Bible is clear on these issues. We disagree on some peripheral issues of baptism and church government but Those those are

01:55:01

Fundamental things about who is God and such Mormonism disagrees on every single one of those issues

01:55:08

Their their God is an exalted man who is one among many gods and they're going to become one themselves

01:55:14

Their God is not the creator of all things. He's not the one who the heavens of heavens can't contain their view of man is that We are eternal.

01:55:26

We started out as eternal intelligences and We then went through to become spirit children and now we're going through our mortal

01:55:34

Probation and we can become gods of our own planet someday their view of sin the fall was a triumph their view of Jesus he's our elder spirit brother as is

01:55:47

Satan and God's not that holy then not that bad man's not that lost grace makes no sense.

01:55:58

So These these are people that no matter how nice they are how clean -cut they are

01:56:05

They They are not Christians We have pastor

01:56:10

George Jensen not the cartoon character. This is Jensen Jensen of the

01:56:18

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania Who says Chris? I've dealt with the same thing here people thinking that Glenn Beck is a

01:56:30

Christian because he is a Conservative politically speaking. I've got into a bit of a battle here in the church over the issue

01:56:39

I think the problem is all over evangelicalism

01:56:45

Unfortunately, or perhaps I should reemphasize the pronunciation that it's all over Evangelicalism.

01:56:53

Yeah, that is a widespread issue, isn't it? The I'm a

01:57:00

Presbyterian Much of what calls itself Presbyterian in this country Has abandoned the biblical gospel

01:57:09

I mean in in some of the mainline churches, they're worshiping They're offering goddess worship

01:57:17

There I debated the pastor of the largest mainline Presbyterian Church in Utah I here before last homosexuality

01:57:28

Debated the pastor of First Baptist Church this past year on the same subject. They think it's a gift from God They don't care what the

01:57:36

Bible says. I mean the the the Presbyterian said that the The parts denouncing it those weren't from God those were written by angry men and so When you start redefining everything to suit yourself, you're a liar it's not it's not on it and But more

01:57:58

I mean I Actually have more compassion on the Mormons because they've been lied to their whole lives and no

01:58:04

Telling them that they're Christians when they're not And so we try to speak the truth to love and love the reason we do the videos we do

01:58:12

Well, I want to thank you so much pastor Wallace for coming back on the program, especially since I gave you late notice today since my

01:58:21

Guest originally scheduled had to postpone But I know that your website is gospel utah org gospel and the full word,

01:58:30

Utah utah .org and I also know that your first documentary on Mormonism is

01:58:38

Available at LDS dot video LDS for Latter -day Saints dot video any other contact information you care to give

01:58:46

Sure, we also did one called an earnest plea to gay Christians. That's a gay Christian video and Anyone would like to get in touch with us we would we appreciate your prayers

01:59:01

We're trying to establish a faithful church here in Zion they call it and I know that you use that word

01:59:07

Tongue -in -cheek. It's an oxymoron gay Christians. You don't actually believe there is such a thing. Do you know we

01:59:15

Responding to Matthew Bynes and showing that you can be one or the other you can't be both

01:59:20

And I want to thank the Reverend Buzz Taylor for returning to the studio as my co -host Good to be back want to thank everybody who took the time to write in questions today

01:59:28

I apologize to those who I did not get a chance to read your questions, but perhaps

01:59:34

Tomorrow you could submit questions and we'll get to you I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:41

Savior than you are a sinner Please don't forget to pray for iron sharpens iron radio as we are an urgent need of new sponsors and new