EQUIPPED Evening Service, February 9, 2025

All right, let's go to the Lord in prayer. Father, we thank you for who you are and we worship you for who you are and for what you've done.

We're grateful for the opportunity that we have to come before you and show our gratitude, whether it's in song, whether it's in prayer, whether it's in reading the

Bible or simply studying what it means, we're just grateful for the opportunity to kneel before you and know that you're

God. It helps us understand who we are and gives us a greater respect and a greater sense of thankfulness for all that you've done for us through the work of your son,

Jesus on the cross. God, thank you for each person that has taken their time to come here, the time out of their

Sunday, which is your day, the Lord's day, but to be here and to close the day and worship God.

We thank you for these things. We love you and we pray all this in Jesus' name, amen. All right.

This is, so I'm sort of going with these topics on the fly.

Look at what we talked about the week before and then figure out what makes sense to go with the next week.

So we're not really following a curriculum or anything like that. It's just kind of, it's kind of coming as it makes sense. And, you know, over the last few weeks, we had just this big crash course on subjects related to discernment, because remember the big picture.

So even when we're talking about discernment, we're talking about a specific issue that doesn't necessarily seem directly related.

Discernment is the overall goal here, the overarching topic that we want to get at.

And the reason that we're doing this is because there's so much out there in the world that claims to be

Christian that is either less than Christian or just not Christian at all, even if it wears the label.

And even the churches, like this is the part that I struggle with more than just about anything else.

And I was gonna say this toward the end. It's directly related to what we're talking about. Like I have trouble in that I'm not as ecumenical as I possibly could be.

And it's because I struggle with some of the things that I see churches doing, whether it's stuff they're posting on social media or the books that they're reading.

And in a negative way for me, because I think this is related to pride as much as it is anything else,

I find myself in a bit of a judgmental state over these things. And I don't know exactly how,

I haven't figured out how to interact in a loving way with some of these churches.

So I just haven't. And again, I don't say that as something I'm proud of. I say that as something that I need to work on.

But the issue is that when I look out into the world and I see what churches are doing,

I do not believe that very many of them are practicing discernment.

Because when it gets right down to it, it's just a lot easier to do things that people like.

It's a lot easier to stick with things that are familiar, even when they're wrong, or even when they're far less useful than they could be.

But at the same time, Amy and I were talking about this the other night. I found myself in the very position that a lot of people that I'm judging are in.

So I realized that I need to show some grace because if we were eight to 10 years ago,

I'm the very person that I am judging. So the journey is long and sometimes complicated, but we have to put in work.

Like I don't think that we should settle for less than that. So again, so we're talking about discernment here, and we talked about a bunch of different topics, but it's all coming down to the fact that if you recall,

I tell people and I tell you to read your Bibles all the time, but it's not just as simple as opening up your

Bible and having the words come in through your eyes, hit your brain, and then you're good to go.

Because we talked about how the Bible is different. Not only is it a collection of books, even if I do call it a book, because it's one book, but remember, it's a library.

It's not your standard book. And I know I've shared this quote before, and I can't remember who said it now, but they said like the

Bible is the only book that you don't read, the Bible reads you. So reading the Bible is not just something that you do and you're done, like the

Bible changes you. You know, people say that they see different things in the

Bible at different stages of their life. Well, I assure you that they were there the whole time. And the way you were seeing them and the way you're processing them related to how your life is now going, whether you're closer to God or farther from God, it's because you have changed.

And reading the Bible will also cause that kind of change. And as we also said, you can't just read it one time and be like, okay,

I've got it down. That doesn't work either. Because of the divine nature of the influence and the inspiration of God, there's more depth than we could ever plumb.

There's more depth than we could ever find the bottom of in this. And that's what I learned every time

I go to prepare a sermon specifically on a verse or a handful of verses.

I just, you know, there's so much there. I read all these different people and realize how little I know and how little we all collectively know.

So this is a lifetime project. And it's all coming down though, how you read the

Bible to an issue of interpretation. And I heard that you guys heard the term hermeneutics again this morning, and literal, grammatical, historical, hermeneutic.

And now because you attended maybe that session, that's what Lynn told me. She's like, well, because I've been to this,

I heard that before, so I knew what it meant. And I'm sure there's a lot of people sitting out there that were just lost. But hermeneutics, interpretation is important.

Remember, that's just a fancy way of talking about how we interpret the Bible. But all of this is done to the end, the end result that you get a proper understanding of the intent of the biblical author, what the author was getting at when they wrote, because that's the only thing that matters about whatever it is that we're reading.

Now, to what end are we doing that? To what end are we trying to get to the original authorial intent?

And to answer this question, we have to go back to the idea that scripture is authoritative and sufficient.

And of course, when I say that, I mean that scripture gives us everything we know, everything we need to know to live as Christians, to receive salvation from the

Holy Spirit. It's sufficient. When I say it's authoritative, it means that we can trust it.

Scripture is the authority that we go to. We all have authority. We have authority in our jobs. We have authority in other places in our lives.

We have people that tell us, maybe if you're retired, you don't have that, but people that tell us where we have to be and when.

When it comes to how we live our lives and how we operate church, our authority is here and it is nowhere else.

We find it nowhere outside of the Bible. So we know also because it's from God that it's without error.

Now, and since I'm in a, apparently a question asking mood, we'll ask another question.

And that is, what exactly is it that you are to understand once you've read and interpreted scripture properly?

And with that, we arrive at our topic for this evening, which is just a broad one this time, but it's doctrine.

This is what we are discovering as we read and faithfully interpret scripture.

Now, I have a verse. It's 1 Timothy 4, 16.

And Paul writes this to Timothy. He says, pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for as you do this, you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Now, some Bible versions translate the word teaching into the word doctrine. So Paul would be saying, pay close attention to yourself and to your doctrine.

Although teaching is probably a better word given the meaning and the context of that. But nevertheless, the point remains because what a pastor is teaching, what

Timothy is teaching is doctrine. So when I use this word doctrine, I throw the word doctrine around, what am

I talking about? And doctrine can be defined this way. It is simply teaching that is considered authoritative.

Now, we have doctrine all over the place. We have military doctrine, for example. There's all kinds of documents and publications that tell us everything about the way various branches of the military are supposed to operate.

The army has a lot of these as well. So again, doctrine, how we go about doing our jobs.

And then those publications, for example, as a chaplain, AR 165 -1 is the one that deals with religious support.

That is my authority for the way that I am to operate in my capacity as an army chaplain. Now, considering doctrine as authoritative teaching, that means that what we are getting out of the

Bible is doctrine. Now, again, if you consider what we talked about the last few weeks, there's nothing more authoritative than what we see in Scripture.

So even though doctrine is the headline, the term that we're using to talk about this tonight, it's still a little bit of a slippery term because doctrine really only takes place within a context.

But just to keep this simple, all of the teaching of Scripture is gonna be considered doctrine.

Now, hopefully this will become clear if it's not. What we're striving for and the way this ties up into discernment is that what we're trying to do is make sure that we are learning, understanding and applying sound doctrine.

And what does that mean? That just means that you have arrived at what we could consider a proper understanding of the teachings of Scripture, a proper understanding or a proper discerning of the authorial intent of Scripture.

Now, when I say that we're trying to practice sound doctrine, what does that imply?

It implies that there's something that's opposite of sound doctrine, right? That's the negative version of that.

And that would be false doctrine. And false doctrine is everywhere.

And false doctrine will always be everywhere. And the reason we know this is because Scripture warns us about it.

In 2 Timothy 4 .3, we have this verse, 2 Timothy 4 .3.

And this explains a lot of what's going on in a lot of churches. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires.

So Scripture, Paul is telling Timothy, look, there will come a time when the people that you are preaching to and the people that are in your church, they won't tolerate sound doctrine.

Now, does that sound like anything that we have going on in the world today?

Of course it does. Again, not only will some churches not tolerate sound doctrine, obviously our society won't tolerate sound doctrine.

But the outcome of this is exactly what Paul says. I mean, again, we remember that the context of this is that he is writing to Timothy and he's giving

Timothy, his spiritual son, a young pastor advice from afar through a letter.

It's not only does he say that they will not endure sound doctrine, but he says that wanting to have their ears tickled, which means wanting to hear stuff that they like, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.

And how do we see this play out in church? You say stuff that people don't like, and they say, well, I'll just go to a different church where people tell me stuff that I do like.

And of course that happens, and that's why we have some of the situations that we have.

But those are things that we can't let trouble us. I know that it sounds mean to the modern ear, but if we, and this is why

I tell you to practice discernment, because you can then run anything that I say from Scripture through your filter of discernment and know that if it offends you, that I'm still telling you what the

Bible says. Or you can know that I'm not telling you what the Bible says, that I'm wrong because you were able to hear it.

You were able to discern this. But we wanna talk about what impact or what influence or the implications of sound doctrine and what they are for the church.

Now, we talked about resources before. This book is called, well, it's called

Biblical Doctrine, but it's also called The White Whale. This is systematic theology book.

And I think that, honestly, I think that everybody should have one of these. I put the link to it on the website, a couple of different places you can get it.

But again, systematic theology textbook. So what it does is it goes through a number of different areas of doctrine in the church, and it explains what the

Bible has to say about all of them. Now, but our topic right now is the implications of doctrine for the church.

So John MacArthur and Richard Mayhew, the editors of this massive textbook, they tell us that these are the things that doctrine does for the church.

Sound doctrine exposes and confronts sin and false doctrine. And there's scripture references for all of these.

Sound doctrine marks a good servant of Jesus Christ. This is how you know the person teaching you is teaching you the right thing and is actually a servant of Christ.

Sound doctrine is rewarded with double honor for elders. Sound doctrine conforms to godliness.

Sound doctrine is included in the apostolic example to follow. Now, some of these are important.

Sound doctrine is essential to equipping pastors. Sound doctrine is the continual mandate for preachers.

And sound doctrine is a basic qualification for eldership. Now, if somebody starts a church or if somebody just decides that they want to be a preacher, somebody has to be able to determine whether or not they have sound doctrine.

Again, that is a basic qualification for somebody to do this. But we also see that sound doctrine exposes and confronts sin and false doctrine.

And this is why sound doctrine is so controversial in the church.

Because when people don't have discernment and they can't recognize sound from false doctrine, they're gonna fall back on their sort of emotional response to anything that's taught.

So if they don't know if it's true or not, then they're gonna default to whether or not they like it. And we see this all the time as well.

Now, again, the whole reason that I called this service or this session equipped is because that is the entire purpose of what we're doing.

It's to give you the tools to practice discernment on your own. I was even talking to somebody about this today.

And he's another chaplain, so he's in ministry in various capacities as well. And he says the same thing to people.

It's like, if you only open up the Bible on Sunday and you're expecting somebody to give you everything you need to get you through to the next

Sunday, it's not enough. It's never gonna be enough. You have to take the steps that are necessary to be able to interpret some of these things for yourself.

It doesn't mean you don't have questions. I have questions. But you have to do the work to understand this.

Now, doctrine. I wanna bring up a couple of objections that people have to the concept of doctrine because believe it or not, people have objections to this concept.

Now, the first one is that it's boring. Doctrine sounds like something academic.

It sounds like learning, and it is learning. But of course, this idea that it's boring is nonsense.

Now, it can be made boring. But that is the fault of whoever is doing the teaching. So hopefully this is not boring.

But with the idea of it being academic or intellectual, I do wanna offer a caution.

And this is for all of us. Doctrine can become entirely intellectual. It can become entirely an academic exercise just for the sake of learning.

But if you don't use it, like part of the purpose for what we do, part of the purpose that we, for learning who

Jesus Christ is is so that we can tell other people, right? What does the Great Commission tell us?

To go out into the world and baptize everyone in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and to continue teaching them what

Jesus taught us. So we have to do that as well. So if we're just up here collecting doctrine and collecting knowledge and collecting things, information, trivia, then that can result in a faith that is completely lifeless.

And that is a faith that won't save you. So it can't, you know, you have to be careful. Don't just learn things for the sake of learning them.

So first, the idea that doctrine is boring. People don't want to talk about that. They just wanna know what's in it for me.

How can I make my life better with this, right? That's what most people, or not most people, that's what a lot of people are out there for, even at church.

Now, the second objection that people have to doctrine is an important one.

And people will complain that doctrine divides. And to that,

I would say that yes, it does. And in some cases, it necessarily divides us.

But we have to tread carefully here, because there are doctrines that are not worth dividing over.

And I'll give a couple of examples. And we'll talk a little bit more about how we judge these. One doctrine that is absolutely not worth dividing over is the issue of Bible translations.

And in this case, I'm talking specifically about the people that are King James only, King James Version only.

Any other Bible translation is wrong. And if you don't use the KJV, you're going to hell, right? That is not in Scripture, first of all.

So since Scripture doesn't speak to that, it's sort of a silly thing to separate yourself from another

Christian over. Here's another area where doctrine divides us when it should not, even though Scripture does speak to it.

And that's in the area of spiritual gifts. Like I know that, for example, me and Florence might have a little bit of a differing view on how this goes, right?

Scripture does speak about spiritual gifts. And we're talking about the miraculous, we're talking about healing, prophecy tongues, whether or not they continue today, or whether they cease with the apostles.

So there are different, there's a variety of different opinions on that. And Scripture does speak about the spiritual gifts.

But when you come to this issue biblically, what you see is that it doesn't say that these gifts continue, and it doesn't say that they've stopped.

So there is no way to make, there's a lot, again, this is a very deep issue that you can do a lot of study on.

But when it comes down to it, and I've been reading about this a lot lately, and that's what it is. It doesn't say they stopped, it doesn't say they continue.

So we just have to sort of allow for the Holy Spirit to operate in the way the Holy Spirit is gonna operate.

And saying that the gifts have ceased in no way means the Holy Spirit has ceased, because that's absolutely false.

So that's just a couple of examples of doctrines where you can still have fellowship with other Christians. But I'll tell you this too, because when we talk about doctrine dividing, there are doctrines which are essential to the

Christian faith. And if you don't share some of these doctrines with other people, you can't have

Christian fellowship with them. And we'll talk about these in coming weeks, because this is just kind of an overview to set the stage for this.

But there are, again, there are certain areas where if you are in conflict or you are in complete disagreement with people, it's really hard to have fellowship with them.

And one example of this, because we've already discussed it at length, is the doctrine of Scripture.

I would suggest that the doctrine of Scripture being inspired and inerrant in its original manuscripts in total is something that you can't compromise on.

You can't, we couldn't have two church leaders in the same church where one said that the entire

Bible was God's word and it's inspired and inerrant. And another church leader who said that there are parts of Scripture that we can ignore.

Therefore, the whole thing is not inspired or inerrant. There are parts that were for that time when they were writing.

Those two things don't go together. Like you are now disagreeing on something that's very fundamental.

We'll talk about this one later too. But the Trinity is an important doctrine to Christianity.

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons, one God, all equally existing and eternal.

All equally God. Again, confusing, but scriptural. Now there are groups that don't believe in the

Trinity. Because, for example, Mormons don't believe that, or they believe in Jesus, but they don't believe that he's

God. Well, if you don't believe that Jesus is God, you are not a Christian. And again, while we can love these people, we can't have a service together.

We can't sit under that teaching. It's harmful. And we don't, make no mistake, we don't worship the

Bible, but we do respect the Bible for what it is. And we give the

Bible the reverence that is due to it being God's word and being sufficient.

And we see this in the end of Revelation. If anyone wants to add to or subtract from God's word, then they have the wrong view of it.

Again, adding to or subtracting from. If there are passages that you wanna take out because you don't like them, then you are no longer treating the

Bible as God's word. In fact, you have to stop and realize that if you are taking out passages that you don't like, you are now putting yourself in a position of judging what should and should not be in the

Bible. And I don't wanna be part of your church. But again, so we'll talk more about some of those other doctrines because the fact of the matter is, there's different levels of this.

There are doctrines that you have to believe to be a Christian. And then there are doctrines that Christians can disagree on and still be maybe even in the same denomination.

There's doctrines that Christians can disagree on and that's what splits denominations. So again, we'll talk about some of this a little bit more.

But as we wrap up this idea, I wanna give you just a few things that we can think about, a few ways to think about doctrine and whether or not this issue that we're discussing, whatever doctrine it is, how should we treat our relationship with other people for this?

So the first question that you can ask is this, what does Scripture say? Because obviously our starting point for anything is the

Bible. That's why we're trying to understand it. That's why we're trying to come up with this right interpretation.

So we think of this as the lowest level of the filter. Well, I guess it could be the highest level of the filter if you're going down.

But anyway, this is your first filter. Either way, does Scripture speak to this issue directly?

If it doesn't, then it's not a doctrinal issue. King James version only.

Tell me where in the Bible it says that that is the version that Christians have to use.

I'll give you two quick examples that hit home for me personally.

So whatever you think about this, homeschooling and vaccines. I'm adamantly for homeschooling.

Therefore, I'm against government schooling. I'm adamantly against vaccines in any form.

But guess what? Both of those issues are issues of Christian liberty. The Bible does not say anywhere prescriptively or prescriptively how you are to educate your children or how you are to take care of your health.

Therefore, we cannot make church doctrine on those issues.

We can have our own opinions and we can live our lives in ways that go, that match that opinion.

And somebody else in the very same church can live their lives in a different way, and that's okay.

Because these are not issues of salvation. They're not even issues that Scripture speaks to. Again, I'm just giving you, just flat out some things that I think and admitting that I have no room to judge the way other people live if they act in a way that I think is wrong.

Because it's not in the Bible. Yeah, we have a thing called

Christian liberty. We'll get to that in Corinthians as well. So now, so that's the first question.

What does Scripture say? Does it say something? No, if not, well, maybe you need to dial it back just a little bit.

Now, number two, let's say that Scripture does say something about it. What does

Scripture say about it? This is where our descriptive versus prescriptive discussion comes into play.

Does what Scripture say about it command you to do it? Does it command you not to do it?

You have to answer those questions. And again, an example for this is marriage.

Now, Genesis 2 .24, God lays out what marriage is.

However, I mean, if we really look at that, it is kind of a descriptive passage.

So what does Scripture say about it? Now, if Scripture says something about it, how much does

Scripture say about it? This is the third question. So we're moving down a little farther.

Is it one single solitary verse? In that case, there's a chance that it's not doctrine and it's not something to divide over, although I guess there are cases where it could be.

Now, are there multiple cross -references? Does this come up in the Old Testament? And then

Jesus talks about it, and then Paul writes about it, and then Peter or John or James write about it in their epistles.

Well, then we have to start thinking that maybe this is something that we have to take seriously, and there are very specific things that we can do.

I would say that marriage is another example here. So we have God defining marriage as a man and a woman, but if we continue on into the

New Testament, we see Jesus talk about marriage, and what does Jesus use as reference? Of course, he uses that Genesis 2 24 verse to talk about it, but not only that, there are lots of verses about marriage.

But they say things like, wives submit to your husbands, husbands love your wives, husbands be kind to your wives, treat them as the weaker vessel, all these things.

Now, what is important about this? From the context, only one type of, or only one form of marriage relationship exists in all these verses.

There's no suggestion that marriage can be anything other than between a man and a woman.

And I don't even say biblical marriage, because as I've said before,

God established marriage, God defines marriage, we do not, society does not, the law does not, despite the fact that they will do it.

So there's that, how much does Scripture have to say about it? This is where systematic theology becomes useful because you can take a book like this and you can see all the things that Scripture says about a particular doctrine.

Now, number four, now that we've looked at how much Scripture has to say about it, does

Scripture give clear instructions, a clear command, or does it address the issue in a descriptive way, or even in a prescriptive way with details missing?

And an example I would give for this is the example of baptism. We know that baptism is all over Scripture.

We know that Jesus has commanded us to baptize people. Yet, this is another one of those areas, kind of like spiritual gifts, where in no place does

Scripture tell anyone to baptize infants. But in no place does it tell people not to baptize infants either.

So Presbyterians, for example, Baptists and Presbyterians, Presbyterians will take the argument from silence and say, well, there's some examples in Acts where entire households were baptized, so we have to assume that babies were part of that.

That's the argument for baptizing babies, even though it doesn't say to baptize babies. It doesn't say to not baptize babies.

So Scripture talks about it. There's clear instructions to do it, but some details are missing. But guess what?

We can still be Christian friends with those people. You don't let them near your children, but you can do other kind of worship stuff with them.

Now, the fifth one is, does it deal with the fact

So, the fifth one is, does it deal with salvation? So again, we're working our way, I said filter, let's go with the funnel now.

We're working our way down the funnel. Does it deal with salvation? So we know that there is only one way to salvation.

Look at a couple of verses, Romans nine, or excuse me, Romans 10, sorry, nine and 10.

That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

So that's Romans 10, nine and 10. Another one of my personal favorites is

Ephesians chapter two, verses eight through 10. Ephesians two, eight through 10.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Now, salvation is, it is the most important thing, right?

This is what we're concerned with. Are we saved? Are we one with Christ? So we have to pay close attention to what scripture says about salvation.

But why is that important? Well, it's important because if you are dealing with a church tradition that has other things to say about salvation, well, then we have more problems, right?

And now, like for example, we would have a problem with a Roman Catholic approach to salvation, being that you need to have faith, but you also have to do certain things.

You have to perform certain works in order to be saved. Again, that is why as much as it pains some people,

I'd say that Roman Catholics aren't Christians because they're working on a different method of salvation.

Now, they have a lot in common. They share many books of the Bible, but relying on that system, according to what we see in scripture, is not going to lead you to salvation.

And again, I know that's offensive. This is where we get into the doctrine divides, right?

And sometimes doctrine divides us very necessarily. And there are people in the

Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church that are truly saved and they truly have faith in Jesus and they put their faith in that and not in their works.

But I and a lot of other people would say to them, they need to get out of the Roman Catholic Church because they're being taught against that.

So those are the things we have to be careful about. And again, like I said, there are varying levels of doctrine.

So when we talk about this, we have to know and we have to be able to discern not only what the doctrine is, but what is the level of importance?

Because again, there are high level doctrines without which you are not a Christian. There are doctrines where Christians can differ that preclude fellowship.

And there are doctrines where Christians can differ that do not preclude fellowship. And we have to be able to understand the difference between those.

So that is what I have for this evening. Again, overview of doctrine. We'll get a little more specific in the coming weeks.

But does anybody have questions on this concept? And you should.

Let Parker give you the mic. Sure. We're all friends and the millions of people watching online.

I'm just kidding. It's like five people. Now it's five people.

That's right. That's why I asked this question. And I'll say something that'll get me in trouble.

So I'm feeling a, like the Roman Catholic view of salvation is all the way here.

Like you have to, you have faith, but then you have to do all this stuff and then you're saved.

But then I'm also seeing this other side of it where it's like, all you have to do is believe.

Done. Bam. So, and I'm feeling like where we are is somewhere in the middle.

But that makes me a little uncomfortable because it makes me feel like there's still stuff

I have to do even though I know that's not actually true. Yeah. So there's this like, middle gray area.

That's, yes, there. Because I know it's more than just, I pray the prayer, I'm 12 years old,

I'm eight years old, I'm whatever, however old I am. I pray the prayer, done. That's all

I have to do for the rest of my life. And I know that's not true, but I also know it's not Roman Catholic.

I have to confess to the priest every week. I have to do this. So where's the connection in that middle area?

So I think the connection is in that passage in Ephesians. Because, again,

I'm not an expert on Roman Catholicism, but one of the things that they say is, well, have you ever read

James? Faith without works is dead. If someone says that he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him?

Well, the answer is yes, that faith can save him. Because that's what Ephesians 2, eight through 10 tells us.

It says, by grace you have been saved by faith. And this not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Verse nine, not of works so that no one may boast.

But then look at verse 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which

God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. So hopefully this answers your question. Maybe it doesn't, maybe it's another issue.

But the relationship with works comes in that the works are a result of your salvation.

They're not the cause of your salvation. So anybody who's shifting the works into something that are required for you to do as part of your salvation, like I don't think that Roman Catholics even deny that faith is part of salvation.

But it's a faith plus works situation that makes it now a human creation and that you are doing things that are earning salvation.

Does that, is that what you're getting at? Yeah, I think what I'm hearing is like, if you're truly here on the, yay,

I'm saved, done. Now I'm gonna go rob a bank or whatever. Yeah, right.

Like, then you didn't actually mean that. We have a lot of people in our churches that were eight years old, 10 years old, their parents convinced them to say the prayer and they think they're saved and even their parents think they're saved because of this.

But nowhere, I mean, you can see in Scripture where you are to pray for your salvation, but there's no place where it says, say this prayer and you will be saved.

You know, again, it says, again, just staying in Ephesians, by grace you have been saved by faith and it's not of yourselves, it's a gift of God.

So, and that's uncomfortable because we are no longer in control of our salvation as in there's nothing we can do to bring it about if, you know, if it's not there.

And that is something that we all struggle with, right? Because we all wanna have control over the situation.

And we also get confused because even people that are truly Christians still sin.

But verses about confessing your sin are about confessing them to God. There's no forgiveness that comes, like if we did it here, there's no forgiveness that comes to you by sitting down with me and confessing your sins.

Like you can tell me about it and we can talk about it, like to try to work it out in a counseling sort of situation, but I can't forgive you.

There, no person, no person has been given authority to forgive sins, right?

So again, just adding that kind of work on there. No person can forgive your sins. Like that is, that's really beyond the pale of what scripture would say.

Like there is one mediator between man and God and that's Jesus Christ. Again, I don't know if I'm dancing around your question or not, but there's a lot of people in churches that think they're saved because they did that.

And the fruit of your life will show whether or not you're really saved.

Yeah, I'm not trying to be a microphone hog tonight, but like - This is what everybody's thinking. They're thinking of their questions.

Great, but I also feel like that's where also the different denominations come into play about like Presbyterians, love them.

My brother's one. I have really good friends, Presbyterians, but like, hey, let's add this another level to make sure that salvation is actually happening.

Let's make sure our children get confirmed, go through this process. Let's make sure the infants are, have some sort of ceremony.

So they don't, they are actually not on the, yay, say the prayer.

They added more levels. And that's another problem, because some of you remember what

I talked about when I was baptized. Well, I talked to somebody today, this gentleman I was talking about that's a chaplain. He grew up in the

Methodist church too. And the way that they treated it, and you guys know this. Once you go through confirmation, you're a

Christian. You're on the team. All you have to do when you're 12 years old or 14 years old or whatever is take these classes, say that you agree to this stuff, and bam, now you're saved, right?

But that's just not how it works. And then we have people who thought that they were saved for a long time, and by the grace of God came to realize that they weren't later on in life, like this person that I was talking to.

So yeah, that's one of those issues. Like Presbyterians have a very solid doctrine of soteriology, which is the doctrine of salvation.

I just don't understand why they baptize children. I mean, I do understand, but it doesn't make sense. It's related to covenants.

All right, who else has questions? Florence, Parker, take over the microphone, please. I'm like you,

Amy, I'm not sure I'll be able to put in the right words. Clear your throat, and they'll be good. But when we were talking about salvation, and something that has really become important to me in recent years is the sovereignty of God.

And I don't know that we wanna get into a discussion of predestination, and this always leads to, but God knows who's going to be saved before we do.

And that's a concept that as a human is hard for me to explain.

Can you explain that? How do you understand that? I mean, so what's our job? I know our job is to witness to people and try to bring them to a realization.

Yes, now that I can. And it really does speak to the sovereignty of God.

But more than that, it speaks to, sometimes we have to know what we mean when we say sovereignty.

But the best way that I've ever heard this kind of explained is that, yes, God knows what's gonna happen.

Because again, now, if he didn't know what was gonna happen, he wouldn't be God. And I'm getting, I'll get there, right? And if we could make the decision ourselves to be saved, then we're sort of dictating to God who's being saved.

So then he's not God still. So there are always things that we have to be okay not knowing.

And we can know that God has determined who will be saved. So God has determined the ends, which is what is gonna happen.

But he's also determined the means of how it's gonna happen. And that's where our actions come into play, right?

Because you may very well be the person that God predestined to share the gospel with this other person to be saved, right?

And you cannot thwart that purpose, even if you try to avoid it.

And I think Jonah is a perfect example of that, right? What did God tell him to do? Go tell the

Ninevites about God. And he said, they're bad people, I don't wanna do it, I'm not gonna do it.

Got on a ship and eventually he wound up preaching to them and they all got saved because that was what

God had ordained and he was not gonna change that. So we can't look at anybody and like they have a little button on their head or whatever that says, you know, predestined, not predestined.

So I don't even have to talk to that person. I can see, we don't know, so we gotta tell everybody, right?

That's part of our purpose. Like I said, it is not to us to determine who is and who is not saved or who will or who will not be saved.

We have to be faithful to what we've been commanded. So that is, does that make sense? That's the answer.

I'm in agreement with you, but you can get all tangled up in predestination sometimes.

Sure. And think you don't have a job to do because God already knows who's gonna be saved.

That's one of the arguments against Calvinism. Although that's not really true

Calvinism, it's what's called hyper -Calvinism where you're just like, well, I have no responsibility because God has it all planned out and I can't affect anything,

I'm just a person. Well, that's, you know, that is now being disobedient to the commands of Scripture.

Because yes, you can't save anybody, but again, I mean, the Great Commission, like, it has to mean something.

I know he was talking to the disciples. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the

Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. So yes, he was speaking to his disciples, but clearly that's the mission of the church.

We have to tell the story of salvation and then it's up to the individual to make a decision.

Well, and they don't, again, it's not up to the individual to make a decision because then that would be them deciding to be saved, right?

But you may be, again, yes, there are mysteries to this, right, and we can get all wrapped around it.

I think that if we can't figure out what our relationship to predestination is and how that affects our approach to other people, well, then we should just default back to this clear descriptive prescriptive, right?

We have verses that talk about how God has predestined people. Those aren't commanding us to do anything.

They're describing a situation, but we have a command to do certain things, right? So this is, yeah, this is where we have to discern that.

And the reason people push back against predestination is simply a human response to something that doesn't sound fair to us.

Right, we just don't like the idea, again, we don't like the idea that we don't have control. Like, yes,

I believe that God is sovereign and God is powerful, but who is he to tell me, like, I wasn't predestined?

Because - He's God, that's who he is. Exactly, yeah, so. This one is not a question,

Matty, but when you were talking about you, you're opposed to public school and you're a firm believer in homeschooling.

I said government school, by the way. Huh? I said government school. Yeah, and then the vaccine issue.

Maybe it's not scriptural, but if you know scripture as best you can know scripture, it will tell you certain things that warn you against what is going on in the public schools, so you would make a decision based on what you know they're teaching and that you know it's wrong.

Yeah, I mean, you know, like I said, I have firm convictions about that, but people will say stuff like, well, I'm gonna send my child as a missionary into a light into a dark place, right?

And like, well, you know what? I don't think that most people's kids are fully prepared to confront their atheist teacher who is like very educated and has been doing this, you know, talking about this stuff for longer than that child has been alive.

They're not prepared to confront that teacher. And it makes your job as a parent or your responsibility to counteract what they're learning in public school.

And I don't understand how you think that you can, in the time that you have now sent this child to school for what, six hours a day, five days a week?

So you don't really have any time in the morning. You have a little bit of time in the evening and the weekends. Are you taking that time to teach the

Bible or are you taking them to practice or are they doing their homework? Are you doing other stuff that you like to do?

You know, it's like, are you taking all of your spare time to counteract the effects of the public school system?

You're not. So there's far more impact there. I guess what

I'm saying is scripture is important because it instills in you why you would make that decision.

And I think it does. But I think that my main point is, let's say that somebody in this church, a member of this church, was having an adulterous affair with somebody else.

I would be well within my rights and in fact, I would be obligated as a pastor to confront them on that.

But I have no such right to confront somebody who sends their kids to public school. Exactly, I agree. Because I can't say you are violating the clear command of scripture and sinning.

But I, you know, yeah, I mean, I have my beliefs about it. You are making your decision on that. Yes, yes. So again, that's a sticky issue.

But like I said, because even, you know, I never wanna overrun my authority, whatever it is as a pastor.

Like I said, I have to protect the church from somebody that's clearly sinning and is supposedly a member, you know?

And hopefully nobody that's a member is not unsaved, although I'm sure that's the case in some cases.

But if they're not living as a Christian, then, you know, yes, there's church, there's a process for church discipline in the

Bible that you go through. But you can't discipline somebody who's not violating a command of scripture, even if it's my strongly held opinion based on what

I think are some biblical principles. That's, you know, that's the difference. Okay, so I'm the same.

I don't know how to word things. All this stuff goes through my head, but I'm like, how do I get it out? So like say, my dad's doing comments to me all the time.

So like being, I liked what you said, Amy, because that is a struggle between that free gift.

I know it was for me, but I like how you say it, Matty. It is a decision, but it also isn't a decision because I always say it's a gift that I was able to accept that fact.

I mean, I didn't do that. The Holy Spirit did it, but then I'm human and I think

I have to earn it and all that stuff. But I guess it's just now

I'm realizing with you preaching how important it is. Like if you're saved, you can go to a church but not get fed as much.

Even though you're saved, you might not be getting all the right information. So the

Holy Spirit has a bigger job to do, I guess. I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I rely so much on the

Holy Spirit because I know I thought, like Amy, I thought I was gonna be saved, boom, and I was gonna be struck perfect.

Well, that did not happen. So then I questioned everything about myself, but the Holy Spirit never gave up.

So I kind of, I believe that more than works, even though it was a gift.

Yeah, and what was

I gonna say? So I think, like I firmly believe that once you have received salvation, that you can't lose it.

Again, none of us are perfect. And I think that people get the wrong ideas and they get it from either teaching or stuff that they read that I told this to the students today.

It's like so many people get the wrong idea.

We were talking about Job, get the wrong idea about suffering because they were taught somewhere along the way that you gotta believe in Jesus so that your life will be better.

And we all think that means that we won't have problems anymore. We won't struggle with sin anymore, but that's just not the case.

That doesn't mean you're not saved if you struggle with those things. In fact, the sign, a sign or an idea that you are saved will come from the fact that when you ultimately do sin, which you will, you see that now as an offense to God.

And like we talked about at the Beatitudes, the mourning is the mourning about your affront to the

God who graciously gave his son for you. It's not that, oh, I did this thing again and I know it's wrong and I feel bad.

You know, it makes me feel dirty or it makes me feel guilty or whatever. It's the fact that you understand that you sinned against God.

So that again, that's sort of, that's an indication at least that your salvation is genuine, right?

Because there's a lot of people that we have these miraculous conversions, people in prison, people in wherever, right?

And sometimes they're saved and then sometimes they get out and they do the exact same thing that they were doing before, right? Well, they just, in some cases, and I don't mean to impugn anyone's motives, maybe they suggested they were saved so that their sentence would be a little shorter.

You know, they turn into a model prisoner for a little while and then back to the old life. We can look at the parable of the sower for more information on that.

Just, I won't read it, but you can look at it. This better not be about house decorations with Bible verses on them.

It is about shopping now. If anybody's interested, last time

I was in Harrisonburg, that book is in stock at Blessings, Christian bookstore over there.

When you started off this afternoon, you were talking about other churches, discernment and judgment.

Just so happens yesterday, I ran across a really neat story that goes way back in time.

The guy that wrote Amazing Grace. Oh, yeah. I can't remember his name,

John Newton. Here you go. The story involved three pastors. There was

John Newton, one who was apparently doing something wrong, and then the third one who was gonna call him out and was gonna go public with it.

But before he did, he wrote John Newton a letter telling him what he was gonna do, and John Newton wrote that person back, that pastor back, and went through a great letter as far as judgment.

I don't know if you're familiar with this story. I can send you a link to it. But it talked about discernment, judgment, loving.

I thought it was just really good description of, or guideline of how you should handle things.

Yeah, and I'm intentionally vague when I talk about some of this stuff because I don't really want to talk about any specific churches.

Of course I have specific churches in mind. And I don't always think people are coming from a bad place, but I also don't know what, if any, role

I have in helping them. Maybe they're perfectly happy, or they think these things are perfectly fine.

I was telling Amy, scrolling through Facebook, and a church just shared a quote, right?

So this is very innocuous, but at the same time, it says a lot. Who was it?

Carlos Castaneda, is that who it was? I don't remember. It was Paulo Coelho, that's who it was, shared a quote from kind of a new age sort of author.

Yeah, and to me, that demonstrates a lack of discernment because what you are now doing, even unintentionally, is throwing the weight of the church's authority behind this person's words.

You are endorsing them by sharing this quote. And again, intentionally or unintentionally, you are also endorsing the other stuff that goes along with their teaching.

Because somebody says, oh, that's a really inspiring quote. What's that person's name? And then they go off, you know, reading a bunch of new age spirituality.

I don't remember. I'd say, oh, I took a screenshot of it.

Paulo Coelho. Now, you guys better not be going to look this stuff up.

You're not listening to a word I say here. Like they won't have it on our wall.

I know, that's right. You'll go to the... All right, this is getting out of hand now.

I thought I'd take a screenshot. Maybe I didn't. I don't know. Yeah, it's just, oh, here it is.

The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion. Innocuous, generic, inspiring.

Your example, not your opinion. It has no depth and there's also no, like, if you wanna propose that idea, perhaps find a passage of scripture that gives you the same kind of idea.

I don't, I just don't like the idea of going to non -Christian authors as a church to, you know, even to promote like a screenshot quote.

I don't understand. And that's when I say I look around at other places and I'm like, that is a lack of discernment.

And I wonder what the source of that is. Is it simply to appeal to people?

Is it simply to make people feel good? Because you know how I feel about people feeling good. I don't like it. Right? You don't come here to feel good.

I know. You know, I'm totally kidding, right? See, now

I'm doing my job. Yeah, we just, we need to, we need to feel good about the right things and place our trust in the right things.

So yeah, that's, yeah. But like I said,

I don't want to tear down other people, but I would, you know, it's like I would never recommend that somebody go to these places, right?

But I want them to be preaching the gospel. And I also think they believe in Jesus, right?

I think we're on the same page on some of that stuff. Just people could possibly be misled by these things.

And again, it's not because I'm perfect and I know everything and I have all the right resources to recommend. Yeah, I mean, this is why

I bring my family to everything so that they can, you know, tell you what really goes on behind the scenes.

I have a question. There are some very good preachers out there.

Yep. Wait, do you have a question,

Lynn? Okay. Oh, sorry. Did you have a question, Lynn? It's okay, we'll. You can be saved, but go to a church where you're not.

Right. And that's why it's so important to know the authority, what you're trying to do.

Yes, and here's what I think is most common is that you can be saved and go to a church that's not very deep or whatever.

I think that, again, we all go through a process and we all grow in our understanding and how we feel about these things.

So you can get saved under shallow preaching because you can hear the truth of the gospel, but you're eventually gonna need more.

So, and I probably don't even do this that well, but like my goal is to,

I don't think you can cover everybody, but I would like to, at least in a sermon, have something that somebody who has no understanding of Christianity can take away, but also have something that people that have been reading their

Bible for a long time can also take away that they didn't know, right? So I'm striving imperfectly for a range of depth in those sermons, because I don't,

I'm never gonna preach to a non -Christian specifically. I'm never gonna aim my message at them and write it for them.

But that doesn't mean I don't want them to hear something that the Holy Spirit can use in their life. But if you go too shallow, then you get to the point where people that are actually

Christians are like, is there anything else? And that happens a lot in a lot of churches.

That I've experienced before. All right, you wanna give Lynn the microphone? I thank you all for your questions.

I worry about my family members. And I don't - A lot of us worry about family members.

Yeah, and I don't, short of praying for them and telling them what we're doing, and we were raised

Catholic. And so they have an understanding of Christ and salvation, but they don't actively practice any faith.

So what kind of influence or thing could

I say to them to help them along their journey? I don't wanna come off as like, oh, Lynn's all into the

Word now. Well, I mean, they may notice that you are different, right?

And that you live different. That might spark a conversation. Of course, that might also drive people away. There's that chance too.

But I think one of the, obviously praying for people and that kind of thing, but maybe there are doors that you can open to conversations that get to the spiritual things that they know about.

That you can kind of talk to them about these things to see where they're coming from.

And you can gently and lovingly share the truth, for lack of a better term.

Again, we're kind of talking in generalities again, because we don't have specifics.

But it's just, like I said, with people like that, your family,

I think it's conversations. I don't think you cut off your family because they aren't

Christian or because they're living, even if they're living a very un -Christian lifestyle, you still love them and pray for them.

And if you have the opportunity, talk to them. But, and this may sound cowardly to say, but I also don't think that you force anything on them either, because they already know where you're coming from.

So you're not giving them anything they don't know about you. But any chance that you have to have conversations, like this is probably not exactly the same because he's a

Christian, but like Amy had 10 hours of conversation with her brother while they were on a car ride.

And he has some different views than we have, but they're just kind of able to discuss them. And it's not that anybody's mind was changed, but the first step is starting to figure out where they are.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, do they live here?

Okay, they live in Ohio, right? Yeah, I know that's tough. Maybe you can send them stuff every once in a while.

You know, maybe Dan can craft something out of wood with a inspirational new age quote on it.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Yeah, I mean, that's a hard answer.

You always have to remember that it's not our work that's gonna do it. You know, we may be the means and you may be able to bring something to them, but ultimately you can't save anybody.

So I know that's not that helpful. Parker. Okay, I'm trying to think how to phrase this.

I know, he gets it from his mom. What if like babies, when they, if they die before they can make the decision to be saved or not, what happens?

Do they, are they, do they have to go to hell or? So scripture does not tell us.

So this is an area where we have to trust in the goodness, the mercy, the justice of God.

Because again, God's not all wrath, God's not all hell. You know, we talk about that part, but there is an aspect of, like I said, love, mercy, grace, justice.

So again, scripture doesn't speak to what happens to babies. Like we know that baptizing them doesn't save them, so that's pointless.

But we have to trust in God that whatever happens to this child is part of the plan that he had for that child's life, right?

And now this is coming from more of a feelings kind of place, but I have trouble believing that God would send a baby to hell because he also decided that it would die before it was able to comprehend the gospel.

And I think the same thing for even adults who lack the mental capacity to make a profession of faith or to truly understand the gospel, right?

Nobody, nobody also, I would say, is judged beyond what they can understand.

And I know that's a really touchy kind of way to put that because that could easily be misconstrued.

But if you, because we get into weird things about what about people in countries like in the jungle somewhere that never had a missionary visit, they never heard of God, you know, what's happening to them?

Yeah, I don't know. But a baby who was never given the chance to develop to the point where they could understand that.

I don't see God sending them to hell. But like I said, scripture doesn't speak to it.

And that's more about my feelings. So again, the big answer to that is trust

God. So I feel like this addresses something that I asked probably around Parker's age.

And I was told there was like something called like the age of accountability or something.

And now I'm totally distrusting that. Like it's not in the Bible. It's not in the Bible. Because when

Parker said that, I was like, oh, no, I got this age of accountability. And now

I don't even know if that's the term. It is, it is the term. Okay. A lot of churches use that. That's how they decide when someone can be baptized is the age of accountability.

Like a one -year -old can't make that decision. Right. And also somebody that's out in the jungle.

But then I guess I feel like I was told every ear shall hear and everybody will get a chance.

But if you're out in the jungle and some white missionary comes to you and says, except Jesus, here's some water.

And that's your one time to decide. Well, counterpoint to that would be the

Holy Spirit can reach anyone anywhere. And we're just, we're kind of speculating about somebody.

We don't even know that this person off in the jungle somewhere exists because evidently no Christian missionary has ever been able to find them.

So again, but like the Holy Spirit, this is where we don't limit the power of the

Holy Spirit. Not necessarily to send a white missionary who has never spoken their language before magically receives the gift of tongues and can talk to them in whatever language they speak that they never heard.

And they hear the gospel and they receive the gospel, but that the Holy Spirit can change their heart. You know, just.

I guess my point is that whole concept, that term age of accountability is totally made up.

It's not in the Bible. It is not in the Bible. So that's another, look, that's why we talk about descriptive versus prescriptive.

That's an idea that comes from just kind of generally looking at how old people might've been when they were able to make a profession of faith in the

Bible and then, you know, putting that into a doctrine. To make us feel better about these things.

To give us something that we can grab onto, something that's easy to understand. Because when I say to you, I don't know if the baby is saved, right?

Well, you can't grab onto that and take a firm answer and be okay with it when you leave.

That's what we want, you know? So it's just, it's the whole confirmation thing.

It happens at a certain age. Not for any reason, but they decided that's the age.

It feels like it's for the adults. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah.

Does that make sense? Age of accountability is not in the Bible. Yeah, thank you.

It depends on the person. It's not a specific age, it's a - Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, what if, what if you grow up listening to a biblical preacher?

You know? You have somebody who could possibly understand this and be able to be changed by that, by the

Holy Spirit at a younger age than an adult who never went to church. And at some point along the way, even if it was just because their spouse drug them to church, you know, when they were in their 30s, they hear it and then they hear it and believe, right?

Well, that's not an age of accountability. Like there's a lot of other factors that go into that. You know? That person who had never been to church until they were 32, if they had died when they were 20, they're not going to hell because of the age of accountability.

They're going to hell because they never received the gospel, right? They never, they never accepted that gift of salvation.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So it's less to do with age,

I think. I just, I think people also get into that idea because we don't, we don't want to just automatically trust a young child who says they believe something because there's a chance that their parents pushed them into it or there's stuff that they are not yet ready to understand.

Yeah. I mean, that name,

God. Yeah. I cannot imagine that.

Right. A chance. Yeah. Yep. I agree. It goes back to your predestination question.

Exactly. It goes back to the sovereignty of God. Yeah. It's the sovereignty.

Yeah. I mean, that's all we have. Well, and the funny thing is we try to do this over these hypotheticals, you know?

Well, what about a baby that went to a church service and they heard it, but they, you know.

And they were baptized. And their parents were Christian, which that doesn't matter either.

All right, somebody, Dan had a question, even though we're just shouting without the microphone now, evidently.

Well, this is actually to tie in with his question. I can't remember the verse, but I believe it's in Matthew where Jesus is calling to the disciples to ask them to be childlike.

Oh, yeah. Now, I don't know if I'm reading between the lines, but wouldn't that,

I'm taking it as being innocent. So to answer. Yes, I take that as being willing, like a child, to believe stuff, you know, that you can't necessarily completely comprehend.

Because that's all of us with God. Like we can wrap our minds around some of it, but we can't completely comprehend all of it.

And that is for people that are not Christians and are determined to look for reasons not to be

Christians, that is not very convincing. But I ask people this question too.

It's like, if you don't wanna put your faith in God's word, because there are parts that you think conflict or there are parts that you don't understand, like I would ask you what exactly you can put your faith in in the whole wide world that you can understand the entirety of it.

Is there anything? There's not. So, okay, you can choose not to believe this.

And I do say that's a choice. Like you can blind your mind to scripture. You can harden your heart is probably a better way to put that.

But again, what are you putting your faith in? Is it in yourself? Is it in science?

What does that even mean, right? But people do that all the time. And it's not logical either.

Like I choose to put my faith in this because this is something that has never changed, right?

Like we talked about that before. People have been trying to destroy the credibility of the Bible for thousands of years.

And yet still we have this Bible in this form and it says God doesn't change.

And God's the only one that we can know of that's not gonna change. Every single one of us is gonna change in some way.

Our personality, our thoughts, our opinions, our attitudes, from day to day we change.

So anyway, all right. I don't know if the

Superbowl started yet or not. Honestly, I don't care. I used to like those, but now

I just think they're annoying. So I don't even wanna watch for that. The Redskins aren't playing, so whatever.

All right, well, thank you guys. Let's pray and then we'll all head out. Father, thank you once again. Thank you for the conversation, for the willingness to learn, the desire to discern what your

Word says. But most of all, we thank you for giving us your Word that we can dive into.

Tonight I pray that you would, through the power of the Holy Spirit, just help us to trust in you.

Help us to rest in the promises of Scripture. As we know, there are so many things that we don't fully understand.

And we just ask that you would grant us that supernatural peace, a peace that surpasses understanding, that comes only from a trust in your unchanging nature and your unchanging

Word. Help us to discern right from almost right and help us to continue to follow the narrow path,

God, as we continue to work out our sanctification and those that are in need of it to work out salvation.

Lord, we thank you for the opportunity that we have to be here. And we love you and we pray all these things in Jesus' name, amen.