A Cover for Glory: A Biblical Defense for Headcoverings

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report iconAndrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

0 views

0 comments

00:00
Head coverings have not really been an issue for many many centuries, but lately it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue some controversy has been coming up on the issue of head coverings and as we're going to see author of the book a cover for glory
00:20
States kind of clearly that it was not an issue until Welcome to the rap report with your host
00:29
Andrew Rappaport where we provide biblical interpretation and application This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the
00:36
Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity org
00:43
Well, welcome to another edition of the rap report I'm your host Andrew rap report the executive director of striving for eternity and the
00:50
Christian podcast community of which this Podcast is a proud member. We are here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the
00:58
Christian life I am joined today by Someone that I met when
01:03
I was doing a show with dead man walking Greg Moore we had not met at least that I know of before that but in the discussion we got into discussing head coverings, which
01:17
Dale had written a book on and I was thoroughly interested because folks who follow this show and my apologetics live show know that we have had several podcasters in the
01:28
Christian podcast me who've changed their view on head coverings including My co -host on apologetics live drew so he had changed his view the guys at I think it was do theology
01:42
Were preaching through first Corinthians and changed their view To a view of wearing head coverings for women.
01:50
This is based out of first Corinthians chapter 11 And I was very interesting Dale has a book out called a cover for glory
02:00
Subtitled a biblical defense for head coverings Dale partridge welcome to the rap report
02:08
Hey brother, I'm excited to be here and have this conversation. Hopefully it's helpful for the church and he is hoping to change my mind
02:15
We will see but you know I'm not opposed to changing changing my view if that's what scripture says
02:21
But and that should be the case for all of us But for Dale for folks who may not know who you are
02:27
Can you introduce yourself let folks know a little bit about yourself and the ministry at relearn org
02:33
Which folks you all go check out yeah, so I'm a
02:38
You know husband father. I have four kids live in Prescott, Arizona Which is a little bit north of Arizona about an hour and a half north of Phoenix.
02:47
I pastor a church here with a handful of elders and faithful men called
02:53
Kingsway Reform Church Presbyterian by doctrine Westminster confession of faith is the the confession that we hold to We are
03:04
Applying to be a part of the CREC. So we're in that process of of that journey. I Operate a ministry called relearn org, which is primarily an app that We have essentially it's you know
03:18
If some people might know of Canon or Canon plus very similar in the sense that we focus less on video action
03:24
In fact, we don't really do video ours is we want to create an incredible library of Reformed audio books for the entire family.
03:32
So we have great books for moms dads teens kids And one thing that we do that's kind of unique is that we actually have sound effects and music and all around theology and Narrative biographies and stories that are really unique and well done
03:49
For the entire family, so we started that a couple years ago, and it's been a really great project so far been fruitful
03:58
And we just passed over a thousand subscribers Which has been a big blessing for us.
04:03
And and so yeah, that's you know We have a podcast on real Christianity Record my sermons all the normal typical pastor stuff, but you know, yeah, my life seems to be filled with just constant teaching
04:18
Well typical pastor stuff, that's okay a lot of teaching and a lot of other things that get in the way of teaching
04:26
Yeah, it's amazing I I've often been You know Overwhelmed with the balance of it all and you know
04:34
I I don't know if you're truly called a pastor until you try to quit at least once And so you get to a place where you go.
04:42
I'm I can't if I could do this I'm done or you know And then you know You have a good conversation with your wife here one of your co pastors or elders comes and has a good conversation with you you
04:50
Wake up the next morning the Holy Spirit fire and you get at it and so That's been my journey for the last eight years.
04:57
Well, it actually took me three times to quit my first church. I Went to the the elders and I told my
05:03
I'm just I I'm resigning and I said that verbally they rejected it verbally I then put it in writing.
05:10
I actually have a letter of them rejecting my resignation in in writing and then the third time
05:18
I was like look there's just Too much going on and they accepted it and that same church actually just contacted me to take today to come back and And come back to the pulpit there for you know to help them out and so it's like Okay, do
05:35
I do this? So yeah, it's it's you always have that It's it is a ministry that is hard for people to understand
05:42
I've we have enough pastors and people in full -time ministry in the Christian podcast community that I've been talking
05:48
I've been talking with several wanting to do a podcast of those in full -time ministry and I want
05:55
I already know the first episode the first episode I want to start by just asking all the pastors.
06:01
So you start working on your sermon Saturday night, right? Okay, like just let's deal with all the myths that people believe in the church about pastors
06:14
If there's a moment that I have a sermon that's not Started by Saturday. That is a massive problem.
06:20
That means that I had the flu that week that means that you know some insane thing happened, but yeah, that is
06:27
That is the real deal. That would be a real problem for me because most of my sermons I'm usually would be working on about four sermons at once they're at different levels
06:34
But if I didn't get started months in advance Because some of the stuff just takes a lot more research you got to do
06:41
Yeah, for example, let's let's deal with the topic right head coverings if you're coming to first Corinthians chapter 11 There's a lot more you have to read
06:50
When it comes as the issue of head coverings I haven't preached through first Corinthians yet So I I've I've tackled chapters of the book
06:59
But I haven't gone verse by verse and I haven't tackled chapter 11 to preach it But you know if I was
07:06
I would be having to read a whole lot more Because that there's a lot more
07:11
I think that's lost in the area of head coverings because of Of Well, whether the culture we live in or culture over time and and you actually address that in some of the book, right?
07:24
So so let's let's get into first Why did you write this book a cover for Gloria biblical defense of head coverings?
07:31
What what brought this about for you? You know my wife and I maybe 10 to 12 years ago be we joined a church and the pastor there held this position and We were younger in our faith and he didn't give us this, you know, incredible exposition of the passage, but He made a few points that were helpful for us and we we looked at the text together
07:55
My wife actually had a conviction even before I did But we we saw, you know primarily that Men take their hats off when they pray that's been a historic practice forever and is still generally the practice even today and it's because of that particular passage of scripture and so the reason that you have the farmer that takes his hat off and When he prays or at NASCAR when they pray and there's 10 ,000 people men take their hats off That's really, you know
08:28
The fruit of this particular passage in America. And so, you know, I started seeing the inconsistencies between well, why are men?
08:36
Willing to follow this passage and women not well that that makes total sense with feminism Then I started doing some history and looking about some research and this is you know years ago
08:47
Finding out that essentially head coverings were vast majority of church history
08:53
Women were wearing head coverings. I mean the the first chapter of my book is the history of head coverings and Most women that read this book and men
09:06
Say I'm already convinced by the end of chapter one just from the historical argument then they continue to push through Because they want the biblical evidence, but it's hard to fight against the historical argument when you have you know the
09:19
Puritans and the reformers and the pre -reformers and the Catholic Church and and the medieval church and and the early church and the church fathers and and you start to see
09:29
Like this and it's not just in their writings. It's in their art. It's in their sculptures. It's in their
09:36
In their paintings. It's in their Illustrations and their engravings.
09:41
It's it's everywhere. In fact, it's extremely rare to find something church related
09:48
From you know any previous century that you don't see a woman wearing a head covering and so When I started to find out that that head coverings essentially disappeared in tandem with the feminist movement
10:01
That was when it really kind of piqued my interest to go, huh? Okay, so you start to see
10:07
You know, it shifts over to bonnets bonnets shift over to hats
10:15
Hats shift over to kind of Doilies and little small things and fashionable statements and when the fashion got out of trend essentially the hat went away
10:25
You start to see bonnet burnings from feminists You start to see hat burnings from the early in the early 1900s
10:34
You start to see groups of feminist women that specifically targeted head coverings as the means of their oppression and you start to realize
10:41
Okay this is certainly sociologically compelling and and so I had always held that position and then when
10:51
I when I Decided to write the book. I Did a podcast my wife maybe
10:58
I don't know six years ago now on this and we had It's still like our number one podcast.
11:05
I've done like 260 episodes and you know Seven million downloads on our podcast and that podcast on head coverings is still our most popular episode
11:15
And so I thought alright, this is certainly an important discussion to be had and we've also noticed that there's this
11:22
There's this this the real data of more and more people are coming to a position on head coverings
11:29
As you mentioned even at the start of the show and so I thought one day. I'm gonna write a book and it
11:37
It just took me a while because of the amount one. I wanted it. I didn't want to be new
11:42
I didn't want to write a book about something that was really new to our home and But we really had been doing this for a decade before I even started writing this and then to It took me like a year to study for this book.
11:54
I mean, I read some incredible Historical writings There is a couple other even modern theologians
12:05
In the last, you know hundred years that have written on the topic that have done some extensive work and I Read the books that most people wouldn't read read, you know four or five hundred page six hundred page books on the topic and Tried to take all the best content out of it and sum it up into like a less than 200 page book that you can read in like a couple hours and so It's so far.
12:30
It's I've had several pastors Write me reform pastors that are like, hey you you push me over the edge.
12:37
Thank you. This was helpful. I've had I've had several I've only known a handful maybe two three women that have told me they've read it and not really
12:51
Adopted the position And so, you know Joel Webben and I talked about this and he says
12:58
I you know This is his words But he says I would rather debate someone on head coverings than Calvinism because it's an easier argument to win
13:05
In the reality, I think it's true I think that it's I think it's easier to win the argument if we're gonna use scripture and we're gonna have a you know, historical cultural grammatical hermeneutic
13:17
You're you're it's easier to win the debate around head coverings that it would even be You know against a you know, a provisionist or whatever.
13:25
Obviously, I'm a Calvinist So I believe that you know Calvinism is correct But but it's it's harder. It's a harder go in terms of the exegetical work than than head coverings.
13:35
And so That's that's the story and I guess we'll we'll go with that. Yeah, I mean it is quite interesting you're as you mentioned the first chapter and As I said in the opening you make the case that really this was not a debatable issue until Feminism so, you know that that's a strong argument you make in the book.
14:00
So flesh that out a bit more for folks I mean because and again folks the book is called a cover a
14:08
Cover for glory a biblical defense of head coverings and I should mention the best place to get it. Yes, you can get it on Amazon But why support a secular company just saying go to relearn?
14:21
org slash glory that'll get you to the relearn learn store That way well, they get most of the money instead of Amazon because Amazon's gonna use that money to well
14:32
Attack Christianity anyway, so but that is the way they they do things and unfortunately, you know, it's it's hard to to do things without the world system that till we get a fully parallel economy, that's we're working toward it, but Best place to go is relearn .org
14:51
Slash glory. So with that let's talk about this. Why do you think? the the issue of feminism came in and the reason
15:00
I think this is such an important thing is Many and then we'll get into this more detail prior later when we look into the biblical arguments
15:09
But many believe what happened in Corinth was that women were shaving their heads saying look
15:15
I could be like a man It was like the early women's rights movement was to shave your head in Corinth and that this is the issue
15:21
Paul's addressing is to say well women shouldn't shave their heads They should have their heads covered with their hair and that that's what the head covering is
15:29
Which would be quite interesting because if that is what he's arguing
15:36
And yet we see historically that women would cover their heads Hi, this is
15:43
Daniel Minnick from the truth spresso podcast Truth spresso is a member of the
15:49
Christian podcast community from striving for eternity ministries and I encourage you to check out all that the
15:56
Christian podcast community has to offer and Another great member of the community is
16:02
Aaron Brewster who goes by the name am Brewster He actually hosts two separate podcasts
16:09
One is truth love parent. The other is the celebration of God I highly recommend you listen to them and Aaron is also a speaker for striving for eternity and Unfortunately, Aaron has experienced hardship from Hurricane Helene He stayed at his house in North Carolina to take care of his dad and tried to combat the flooding with powered water pumps
16:35
Unfortunately when the power went out Inevitably the flooding continued while currently living on a meager ministry salary
16:44
Aaron has lost much of his livelihood in the flooding from Helene Let's be practical and give to those in need
16:53
Striving for eternity is set up a give send go fund to help out
16:58
Aaron and his dad as Soon as I heard about the situation I donated and I strongly urge you to give to just go to give send go calm forward slash
17:11
SFE. That's give send go calm forward slash SFE Please open your hand wide for those in need
17:21
Imagine losing your house in your car and pretty much everything you've worked for all your life
17:28
It's far easier to give to those in dire need than to be someone in dire need
17:34
Please do the easy thing and give generously and be a blessing as Jesus has told us to do
17:41
It's the biblical and Christian thing to do once again. Go to give send go calm
17:49
Forward slash SFE to help out Aaron Brewster who has lost virtually everything in the flooding from Hurricane Helene Striving for eternity ministries is a 501 c3
18:03
Nonprofit, so your generous donations are tax -deductible so please give generously to help out a wonderful Christian minister and Podcaster a member of the
18:16
Christian podcast community once again go to give send go calm forward slash
18:23
SFE and be a blessing to someone in need It would actually be the feminist movement
18:37
That caused Paul to write it in the Corinth to now Do away with the head coverings which
18:45
Creates it creates a contradictory narrative in my opinion there. So I think I Will address the issue is the hair the covering and I think that honestly is the easiest argument to debunk
18:58
And so we will hit that one hard in a second But I think that when we talk about the history a few things that come to mind is one
19:07
We're seeing the loss of male authority now men don't need to be
19:14
Men don't need to feel like being a man is oppressive because God has given us this station we have authority in the home and the church and we're supposed to be like the ultimate patriarch
19:26
Christ who is a loving and gracious authority But we are the the image and glory of God It doesn't say that women are the image and glory of God.
19:37
It says that women are made in the image of God But men have a unique station in chapter 11 that we are
19:46
The glory of God in a way that the women are the glory of man and so women
19:53
This whole issue around head covering is about the issue of authority. It's about physical symbols that demonstrate the spiritual order to other
20:04
Christians and to the spiritual world and so when you remove the physical elements that distinguish
20:14
Authority, it shouldn't shock us that we are now confused about Who can be in authority?
20:21
And so what I mean by that is that when we have a church that's trying to ordain women You know when you eliminate the visual symbols of authority the qualifications of authority are forgotten
20:33
And so it's part of the kind of I'm just like you I'm the same as you now
20:38
God gave us this beautiful You know study on clothing
20:44
That clothing communicates. We know that it's very important throughout history.
20:50
There's a there's a whole theological argument around textiles and and And uniform, etc, etc.
20:56
But but if we take away the actual Physical elements that communicate authority we shouldn't be confused why the church is so confused
21:09
About who is in authority? And so I think that was a real big When you walk into a church full of women covering their heads
21:17
You're not gonna often find women trying to be ordained it is it is
21:23
It is a sign that women are really in submission to their husbands and That is a great and helpful trait to the ecclesiastical life of the church
21:36
One of the criticisms that folks will make is that What they see women wearing head coverings and when
21:44
I think I think what a lot of people are referring to is more They'll see it in the Mennonite.
21:49
They see it in the the Amish Where it's almost like women are second -class city and citizens that almost
21:56
I think for some when they think head covering they're thinking Islam in first off just the
22:04
For folks that may not even realize the the burqas that are worn within Islam The women wear that but it was actually only for Muhammad's wives
22:18
Initially, so that wasn't a practice that you could argue that because some Muslims will say well This is historically the way it's always been no it isn't the burqas started with With his actually his youngest wife
22:31
Aisha but the the thing is that that was you know The full covering we're only see the eyes was to protect his his wives from walking around town to identify them
22:43
Now all the women, you know are supposed in Islam are supposed to do it But we're not talking about that when we talk head coverings, right?
22:52
No, I know and honestly, I mean the scripture commands women to do it while they are praying or prophesying now
22:58
We need to qualify those terms What is prophesying you're like? Oh, well, you know women can't prophesy women can't be pastors
23:04
So therefore, you know that that you know, this is just talking about something else No the reality is is that women do prophesy and what is prophesy prophesy means that it's a proclamation of the truth of God to To the world now when you're singing
23:18
Rock of Ages, are you prophesying? Absolutely, when you do the Lord's Table, it says that you proclaim his death until his return
23:26
You are in a sense proclaiming you are prophesying when you are doing recitations in your liturgy and you're reading scripture aloud
23:33
Are you prophesying certainly you are and so when you're partaking in spiritual activities including prayer
23:41
You are to cover your head now There's so many angles and pieces of this conversation to have
23:49
Discussed before you can really grasp what's going on You know one is essentially at the core why'd
23:54
I call the book a cover for glory well Because man is the image and glory of God Women is the glory of man and the idea is that Because God our man is the image of in glory of God.
24:09
He is to not cover when he is spiritually Exercising his spiritual realities.
24:17
And so he is not to be covered. He is God's glory. He is to be shown now
24:23
Woman is the glory of man And she is to cover that glory in the presence of God Because she is now
24:35
I'm saying glory of mankind. She is The glory she is the most beautiful part of mankind
24:40
But she is the representation of man coming out of Adam Adam is the representation of God coming directly from God And so there's some great
24:47
Deep theological realities of Genesis and intertwined here and Eve and Adam and so many things that we
24:55
We could spend more time on and and honestly if you've ever written a book You know that when you write a book you quickly forget everything that you've done after about a year if you're not constantly debating it
25:04
So I'm not gonna be able to to you know, extensively remember every element
25:09
But I remember even studying for this book going my goodness. This is phenomenal interesting fascinating You know theological systematics that are very helpful to put together
25:24
But I think the best part for us Andrews to really sit and talk about the hair as the covering because I think that's the number one
25:33
Argument in the church and you know, I think I can deal with that pretty easily Yeah, and that's
25:38
I mean right from the text, you know The the argument will gets made because it says verse 6, right?
25:46
For if a woman does not does not cover her head. Let her also have her hair cut off but it is
25:54
But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved
26:00
Let her cover her head. And so the fact is hair is directly mentioned.
26:07
So yeah, this You know, but I'm gonna preface it this way and just say there's a lot here that 2 ,000 years removed from Corinth we don't
26:22
It's hard for us know exactly what Paul is referring to unless he says so because there's a lot in this as you bring out
26:28
In your book, there's a lot that brings us back to Genesis because later it's gonna talk about you know from You've the next not the next verse it's um verse 10 it says therefore the woman ought to ever her
26:44
To to have a symbol of authority on her head because of angels Yeah Verse 9 is for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but the woman for the man's sake
26:54
So you have a lot going on in his argumentation of why this is the case that is not fleshed out and You know, this is probably the only text that's really clear on this topic of head covering
27:11
But just because it appears only once does not mean that doesn't make it a doctrine Well, yeah, and there's there's more text on head coverings than several.
27:20
There's more text on head coverings than women teaching to the church I mean, there's more there's more content on head coverings than on, you know,
27:28
New Testament on parenting there there's there's a This is a robust passage of Scripture and you're like, okay, this is this isn't this is 16 verses that you half a chapter on a particular issue
27:44
And so I think it is worthy of looking at seriously now a couple things I want to talk about is one is you know, you know
27:52
You mentioned earlier the women covering there are shaving their heads that argument
27:57
It reminds me of like NT Wright's Argument that you know, oh in 1st Corinthians chapter 14 when it says the women shouldn't be teaching
28:05
Oh, it's just talking about those loudmouth brazen women that are in Corinth You know the ones that in the her are in the historical records and you're like what dude you can't you one you can't import a non -biblical concept into the
28:19
Bible and then apply this Reduce and reject the you know, move the biblical concept away because of a non -biblical
28:26
Example and and so, you know It also says in in 1st Corinthians 14 that this is the practice in all of the churches
28:32
It says that again in 1st Corinthians 11 that this is the practice and all we have no other custom amongst the churches We know that the introduction to 1st
28:38
Corinthians is not written just a Corinth But it's written to all who are in every place call upon the name of the
28:44
Lord Jesus Christ And so this is a letter that has again Sure a specific but also a general
28:51
Christian message and so that is something we need to think of just contextually Who is this written to and can we just trust that this was written to Christians?
28:59
Not just in Corinth, but everywhere and I believe we can I think we apply that. Are you gonna say, you know? Oh 1st
29:05
Corinthians 13 now, that's just for Corinth. So what's really easy to just kind of take and create a local
29:12
Application for the passages that we don't like but we're not gonna take the local stuff and explain it away on the passages
29:19
That everybody likes first like 1st Corinthians 13 now When it comes to this topic around the phrase for her hair is given to her for a covering
29:30
Again, many people say look it's right there Dale. The hair is the covering it says it right case closed, you know head coverings
29:37
They're not needed. Let's let's just move on But I really believe that out of all the arguments.
29:42
This actually is probably the weakest argument And and just follow along with me for a second because in chapter 11 verse 6
29:51
Paul says for if a woman Does not cover her head
29:57
Let her also have her hair cut off But if it is a disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off her head or her head shaved
30:09
Let her cover her head Okay, and just you just need it I'm gonna read it again because I want you to just follow along with this and now
30:16
I'll Do a little exegesis here with you in a second. So for for if a woman does not cover her head
30:25
Let her also have her hair cut off Okay, you're about to see the contradiction there
30:30
But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved
30:37
Cover her head and quote. So in other words if the hair is viewed as a head covering
30:46
Why would Paul say for if a woman does not cover her head Let her also have her hair cut off.
30:54
I want you to just slow down with me for a moment To look at this with me if her hair is the covering
31:01
Then you have to read the text like this For if a woman does not cover her head with hair
31:09
Let her also have her hair cut off in this interpretation of the text it creates like a logical contradiction within the passage and it reveals that the covering that Paul is referring to is
31:22
Not a woman's hair. He's talking about and actually said if you don't have that covering on then cut off your hair because that's disgraceful
31:31
Furthermore the the fact that Paul only commands covering for women during certain functions like praying or prophesying is
31:40
Also evidence that it's instructing the use of a removable covering because if if the hair
31:47
Were the covering that he has in view then they would always
31:52
Be covered during all the functions because women don't take their hair off And more importantly if the hair is the covering that Paul is calling for why would
32:04
Paul even Have to write to tell women to cover their heads again.
32:09
Some people will take the historical. Oh There's so many bald women everywhere running around Really in the church.
32:16
There was all these bald women running around Again, we don't have a we don't hardly have any in fact.
32:22
In fact, I couldn't even find any I saw lots of like stuff that came out in like the 1600s, but nothing that was early church
32:31
Claiming that women were That were shaving their heads. This is this is an extremely hard to trace
32:40
Citation that is so incredibly popular in our feministic culture. And so under the views of the hair is the covering again?
32:48
it would be like Paul writing women to tell women to like wear their hands because when they print when they pray and prophesy
32:54
Of course, they're gonna wear their hands because their hands like their hair are connected to their body The other thing is that when when?
33:01
If the hair is the covering Then then why isn't the hair covering for men? And so you're supposed to take something off your head.
33:09
Are men supposed to shave their heads when they when they uncover? Well, of course not. No. No, it's because they're talking about a physical
33:17
Covering and you look at the Greek words that he uses in this passage and you start to realize that those are the same
33:24
Greek words That people use for veil or for a shawl And so you there's a lot of evidence there that really can help you grasp that this is not
33:38
Talking about a hair is the covering it's talking about your hair is the physical covering for the physical world
33:44
You're you're covering is for the spiritual covering for the spiritual world. So there's two coverings
33:50
And one each each of them have their their purpose. There's a sense of modesty That is real
33:58
That you can that hair covers a woman and that's correlating with specific, you know physical realities of modesty and then there's a spiritual reality where glory that we cannot necessarily see but angels can
34:13
Is the spiritual covering that you would put on there and so again That's just a basic easy,
34:20
I mean I spend like a hundred pages on that in the book, but Well, it's because This is a the issue we have to deal with is what is the covering?
34:31
I I've been asked for many years to deal with the topic of head coverings and I started studying this text.
34:39
There were struggles that I had with it because When you get into what is the covering that's real issue everyone agrees women's should have their head covered now the question is with what and Where I struggle with the text is if I take it as as hair, which was my
34:59
My presupposition walking into it is well, this is talking about hair because it mentions hair
35:05
Where I struggled with it is how does this relate to the creation order verse 9?
35:13
and the Authority because of angels in verse 10 like what however you interpret the covering it has to fit with the rest of this context and the broader context and and I want to hold off to later on this, but I'd rather Let's let's get into the creation order and angels that the symbolism there
35:36
But it gets into the fact of verse 3, right this is where this is starting this and I think if You look at the the way you lay out in the book the the issue of feminism
35:48
Why would feminism have an issue with head coverings? Well, I think from verse 3 Feminism has a problem with verse 3 but I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of a woman and God is the head of Christ It's that middle part there that feminism has the issue with right that Man is the head of woman.
36:09
They they don't understand that they misinterpret that what that what that means and then they rebel against that so Let's put hold that off because I think that's the overarching thing
36:23
You have to answer when we look at what the coverings are But whatever the covering is I think you have to it has to tie in with Paul's argument because his argument is not
36:35
His argument is not based on The Corinthian Church just like much as you mentioned we'd make the argument
36:42
Paul's argument in first Timothy for women Teaching and having authority is not based in what happened was happening with loud women in that in the
36:51
Roman Empire At that time because he bases it in the creation order and the sin order
36:57
Well, Paul makes a similar thing here. He's he's basing it back to creation. So there's something here that goes beyond Corinth and That's where I have struggled with how
37:13
With what this covering is and and how this how the layout of this goes and that's why
37:19
I've yet to really tackle this On the podcast. So that's why when when we were together, I said, ah, okay
37:26
I'm gonna let you tackle it for me, right? You've done the research And I think the book makes a very compelling arguments again
37:33
The book is called a covering for glory a biblical defense of head coverings. You can get it at relearn .org
37:41
Slash glory, but What is your argument for how this relates to the creation order and the angels?
37:49
Yeah, so in terms of the creation order We know that God has given man authority even in the garden
37:57
We know that that authority was not corrupted prior to the fall we know that There you know, that's my argument
38:05
Why why Eve didn't need a head covering is because the head coverings are really as a result of of the fall
38:11
It's to demonstrate something that didn't need to be demonstrated. In fact, you know, we see that God says to Eve, you know your desire should be for your husband, but he will rule over you and so this is upheld throughout the
38:25
Old Covenant throughout the New Covenant and And so again, these are symbols of that authority.
38:30
They're physical symbols of a spiritual authority structure That communicates and it's very helpful.
38:37
By the way, it's extremely helpful for church communities and church cultures and it preserves order and we live in a casualized culture, which wants to reduce all types of Reasons to You know use dress as authority.
38:56
I mean It's really dumb because you know, if you if you go anywhere, you're gonna see a doctor wearing a white coat you're gonna see you're gonna see a you know, police officer wearing, you know a police uniform you're gonna
39:08
The good news is striving for eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks
39:16
Teaching them biblical hermeneutics, that's right The art and science of interpreting scripture the bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover
39:26
Jeremiah 29 11 should not be their life first to learn more go to striving for eternity org to host a
39:33
Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area You go to on an airplane, you know exactly who to ask
39:41
For help because the the stewardess is wearing a uniform, you know dress communicates
39:48
I mean, no, nobody's gonna argue with that In fact, I actually had just recently came to the conviction of wearing the clerical collar
39:56
And for the same reason is that you know people You know, if I walked into a room, no one's gonna have any clue just because I'm wearing a suit that I'm a pastor
40:07
Well, I don't know about that anymore because I walk into plenty of churches I'm the only guy in a suit and people think
40:12
I am the pastor We've casualized so much that even like You know just respectful clothing is like oh you must be someone important and you know, so I get that but it's you know, it was a really good story that I heard from Yuri Burrito who said he went to dinner with Doug Wilson and The the woman who was serving them at the end of their meal asked for prayer
40:41
From Yuri and she didn't realize that she's sitting next to one of the most influential pastors in America But she turns to Yuri and asked for prayer because she didn't know that Doug was a pastor
40:50
But she did know that Yuri was because he was wearing his collar and so You know, there's just things like that that you can't argue that dress communicates
40:59
And so the value is that the authority structure that is in place, which is a whole other argument You know,
41:05
I actually tell people this book is not even really about head coverings. I mean, it's there it's I Exposed that passage of Scripture, but it's really about male and female roles distinctions order stations
41:21
It's really about structure in church Dr. McFall wrote a book called good order in the church.
41:28
It's like 600 pages. It's about The kind of male and female order and I used that book extensively
41:39
Incredible Hebrew scholar did excellent work on this particular topic and his book was extremely helpful on Communicating that so I would say yes because the argument is rooted and anchored in things that don't change like creation order or angels
41:55
Then this can't be a cultural norm. This or a cultural argument. This is anchored into You know everlasting realities and And so that that was a big part of the argument there which again
42:11
I you know, it would probably do you better just to read for someone to read that particular Section of the books.
42:17
I certainly spend several, you know, maybe 20 30 pages on that It is gonna be very hard for folks to in a one -hour episode
42:29
Get all of the depth of The research that you've put into the book.
42:35
So just if folks are saying well, you're not convincing me Well, yeah, because we're touching on highlights here
42:43
I mean, I have a ton of questions that you know I didn't because I think there's a lot of counter arguments people are gonna make that I Want to see you address all of them, but we don't have time, right?
42:55
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly I mean, it's and I want to go to your point on on the angels
43:03
There are and again, I'm not gonna have all the scriptures here for reference, but they're there in the book But it's we know that this is for the sake the the sake of the angels
43:12
Well, we know that the the physical hair isn't for the sake of the angels The the because that the physical covering is your a woman's long beautiful hair.
43:21
It's a glory to her We know that a woman with short hair is not Glorious if she's shaven
43:28
We know that a woman with long flowing hair just culturally sociologically I mean look at in the cover of any magazine you're gonna see
43:35
I mean if they're not feminists and weird butch stuff going on There but generally historically you see a woman with long beautiful hair and it's gorgeous
43:43
Men are attracted. In fact, I actually did a study On social media, but I got this from the original study that was done
43:51
The first thing that men notice even before breasts and butt on the body of a woman is a woman's hair it is so Vitally important to men and so hair is a big deal
44:04
For a woman they know that Look at the you know You can see even like the fronts of these beautiful ships in the 1600s and the 1500s and they'd have this like Mermaid or this beautiful flowing hair and all the
44:17
Disney movies all these princesses have these beautiful flowing hair. And so so The hair is what makes them feminine and that is a cover
44:25
To protect them and show their femininity the physical or the spiritual covering
44:31
Is for that for the sake of the angels? So we have angels that we know according to scripture are looking on us as we worship
44:38
We know that angels include demons and angel fallen angels and non fallen angels and this communicates a godly order in a fallen world to an angelic realm and That that's that's again.
44:53
There's so much more here. But that that is the the high level discussion is that You have an audience
45:03
You have a physical audience you have a spiritual audience and and they're all tied in together
45:09
And there's lots of commentaries on for the sake of the angels and that's there's obviously going to be very in different interpretations there
45:16
But the angels don't change and so we know that if this is something for the sake of the angels Wow Well, the angels haven't changed. Therefore this practice hasn't changed either
45:25
Yeah, and the passage really for folks to look at if you're have a Bible open is 1st
45:31
Corinthians chapter 11 verses 14 15 that you're referring to it says does not even nature itself teach you that a man
45:38
If a man has long hair, it's a dishonor to him But if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her for her hair is given to her as a covering now
45:47
This is one of the arguments that's made then here. It says it's for the covering So Let's let me give the the counter argument.
45:57
So you you know because this is this is I think I think the hair As the covering is probably the most prominent view of those who don't hold to head coverings
46:08
I think that'd be a fair assessment. I I From my study of it And that's why
46:14
I think it's it's best to spend the most time on that one There's there's other arguments people have against it, but I think this is a primary one that would that be fair you think yeah
46:23
Yeah, and and if you will I like I can offer you I have the book up right here and there's some notes
46:29
I can take and and share with just the Reality of the Greek behind it.
46:34
Yeah, folks more convincing. So, you know when it says You know, essentially we want to prove that Paul is talking about an artificial covering
46:44
Okay, that's what we want to see in the covering What do you know that our passage means he wants you to have an artificial covering and so if you look back
46:54
Yeah, first Corinthians 11 for it says, you know every man who has Something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head
47:03
Now the phrase something on his head you know is kata kefalis and in the
47:10
Greek and the only other place in the entire Bible where this exact phrase is used is
47:16
Esther 612 and it's in the Septuagint obviously because the Old Testament is in Hebrew But you know for those, you know of you who know the story of Esther and Haman and the sabotage, you know
47:31
Esther's uncle Mordecai, you know, the king had become aware of his scheme and Haman was now forced to Honor Mordecai in the public and in verse 12 in that passage of scripture
47:43
It says then Mordecai returned to the king's gate, but Haman hurried home morning with his head covered
47:51
Now this phrase his head covered is kata kefalis and in this Septuagint and The question we have to ask ourselves is is was the author of Esther telling us that Haman hurried home with his hair on No Haman was ashamed and embarrassed and grabbed a cloak or a piece of fabric and hid himself under it
48:12
And that is what we see that this the phrase, you know kata kefalis In you know is not talking about hair as the covering but an artificial covering
48:22
Another instance is found in the secular Greek literature by a first century Greek philosopher
48:27
Plutarch We've all probably if you're if you're a pastor, you've probably read some Plutarch He said in an essay on the
48:34
Roman general Scipio He said and he Scipio came to Alexandria and and landed and he went with his head covered and the
48:44
Alexandrians running about him entreated him He would gratify them by uncovering and showing them his desirable face
48:52
When he uncovered his head they clapped their hands with a loud acclamation again
48:58
The exact phrase there is kata kefalis and it appears It's further evidence that the hair is not the covering
49:08
But Paul is referring to I'm using the language of of an artificial cloth that goes around the head and so You know first Corinthians 11 15, you know for her hair was given to her for a covering
49:24
Again for those of you, you know who know Greek You know you get this this term
49:32
Pair I see I'm reading it right now. I'm my Greek is parabolion, okay and You know,
49:39
I want to look at that word parabolion and It's it's the noun covering in for a covering.
49:48
So it's specifically dealing with that word And in our entire passage the the root word used for cover covering or uncovered
50:01
Is is kata kalupto, which means to cover and You know, which we know is an artificial covering
50:11
But the phrase for her hair is given To her for a covering now
50:18
Paul uses a completely different word here. This is interesting. There you go Okay. Wow, so we've been using this kata, you know kalupto
50:26
Word and every other spot, but then all of a sudden he uses this different word for that particular verse
50:34
For a covering and so I think when I started getting into the exegetical side of it and you start seeing it Okay, he's talking about a physical covering a physical covering a physical covering kata kalupto, which is related to the
50:46
Kefalase Covering that we talked about earlier and then all of a sudden he says the hair is a covering and then he he changes the word to a different word for covering parabola, and so It gives you so this word in the
51:04
Greek means something thrown around one. It's like a shawl And it's the image of a shawl being thrown around a woman's head
51:13
And so the first five instances Paul is clearly talking about an artificial covering but when he argues that even nature demonstrates the principle of a covering he uses a new word and It can be translated really as for her hair is given to her as a beautiful shawl
51:30
So Paul is is making the point that even nature Demonstrates that long hair is a glory is glorious on a woman and and for this reason she has been given
51:40
By God this beautiful shawl of hair This is this is essentially a vital distinction that's gonna help you kind of follow along on the argument
51:49
So that that's that's a good place to stop right there. In fact in in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 12 that word is translated mantle when it says and like a mantle you will roll them up like a garment
52:04
They will also be changed so in least in that case
52:11
The secondary word that you're using that you're pointing out is
52:17
One that we wouldn't clearly see referring to something other than than hair
52:22
Even even though you have your you know The context it's saying if a woman has long hair
52:30
Right for her hair is given to her as a as a mantle or a cover So so it is intriguing that there's two different words there for the covering
52:38
Yeah, I think I think that if you're a Greek speaking first century Christian, you're just not even like it totally makes sense to you
52:46
You're just going oh like yeah, he's talking about a covering we we know those coverings as physical coverings And then you go.
52:53
Oh, yeah, he's talking about hair. Like I get that like yeah, my The Lord's given women beautiful long hair
52:59
It's one of the problems we have to understand when we are translating is there may be certain languages that have more precision more nuance
53:10
That a different language might not for example Eskimos have so many more precise definitions of snow
53:20
That here we just call snow or maybe you know, you know, we like where I'm at. We might refer to it as flurries snow and blizzard
53:28
But they have a whole lot more Because they're dealing with it more and a lot can get lost
53:35
Look at the passage in John where Jesus comes to Peter and three times says do you do you love me?
53:42
Love me so many people miss the meaning of that because so many pastors I hate to do this, but when
53:47
I go into churches and that we do our Bible interpretation made easy seminar. This is a passage
53:54
I bring up because so many people preach it and it preaches So well Peter denied him three times.
53:59
Look he's asking do you love me three times? And if you just look at the English you lose
54:06
What's actually being said there because there's two different words for love in that passage
54:13
Jesus is saying do you agape? Do you love me and Peter's saying no, I fillet. Oh, I have a brotherly love for you
54:20
So he asks him a second time. Do you agape and I have a brotherly love for you the third time
54:26
He says do you fillet? Oh So now the third time he's asking do you actually do you really love me at the level you're claiming
54:34
That's why Peter was grieved that he asked him a third time Do you fillet?
54:40
Oh, it's not that he asked three times that he was grieved It was because your Jesus is saying do you have an agape love for me?
54:47
And he's saying I have a brotherly love for you. And now he's even questioning that so Sometimes again in a case like this.
54:55
We have two different words For English we're using Covered and yet there are two different words in Greek that becomes something we have to then dig into to say, okay
55:05
Why is Paul doing that? What is the author trying to get at with that? This is this is the importance of studying our the
55:14
Bible. You can't just Come into the Bible and go like I'm gonna rush in and rush out and and let me just encourage folks
55:22
While you're listening if you do want to dig in deeper into studying the Word of God Let me encourage you to look into getting
55:29
Bible software called Lagos Lagos Bible software is Some great software in there with their newest release if you've heard about Lagos before and said, yeah,
55:39
I can't afford that I I'd have to take out a mortgage on my home Yeah, it used to be that way, but they now have a subscription based thing
55:46
So if you want to get into digging into the scriptures you want to say well I want to know what Dale's actually saying as Dale's talking
55:53
I'm pulling up the Greek in just a few clicks in my Lagos software. You could do that to go to Lagos dot -com slash
56:02
SFE SFE stands for striving for eternity that lets them know that you heard about them from us and I believe
56:09
They're still giving five free books when you come through striving for eternity. So it's Lagos dot -com slash
56:16
SFE to get Some Lagos Bible software I think it's the premium software out today for doing
56:22
Bible study and that will help you to dig into as as Dale is saying because scripture does tell us we have to have our women have to have their head covers
56:30
What does it mean? You got to dig into scriptures to know and that's the importance of having good
56:36
Bible software so Dale with that I think some make the argument that the the reference to Creation the reference to angels is dealing with just the authority issue not the physical wearing of something on your head
56:59
I Said I wanted to get back to verse three for the people who make that argument
57:07
I Know as we talked before I'm not someone that's convinced that women need to wear their heads wear something on their heads
57:15
In in church, but I could be convinced from the text Right, but I think this is a really bad argument for people to make anyway, because the verse three to try to say well that the
57:30
To me the overarching issue is not the head coverings It's the authority
57:37
Yeah, it's the authority and you don't want to display it it's it's a
57:42
Especially in a feminist culture where it's new. I mean, I actually opened up the book with a story of my wife
57:50
It's called like looking strange for God and and she you know, she had her own journey of like You know, this is weird putting on a head covering.
58:00
It wasn't weird for anybody in Previous generations. I mean you were a child wearing a bonnet to church.
58:07
It's just that's just what it is You look at you know Little house in the prairie.
58:13
I mean, it's just normal Christian life historically, but now It's a display of your femininity of your submission of your reverence
58:25
And so I would say yes women have a struggle Because of the fall with the structure of Verse three, but I think that actually verse seven
58:40
And eight And nine are actually harder verses because you go
58:46
For a man ought not to cover his head since he is the image and glory of God But woman is the glory of man.
58:53
So we have different in distinct glories We're not the same and we live in an amalgam
58:59
Amalgamized androgynous kind of culture that wants us to be egalitarian in the same And and in fact man is the glory of God and woman is the glory of man and so so, you know, there's this
59:11
There's this kind of preeminency or superiority not in value But in station and that's a key understanding and and and by station,
59:22
I mean authority And the ESV translates this whole passage of scripture as wife instead of woman
59:29
I actually believe that the argument the whole arguments between man and woman Versus husbands and wives and so that's a whole other discussion, but you can look again in the book on that But it says in verse 9 or at first aid it says for man does not originate from woman
59:45
But woman from man, so it's talking about God who's created first chronological argument
59:51
And woman came from man, but obviously we he goes back later says but all come from from woman essentially birth
59:56
But then in verse 9 it says for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but woman for the man's sake
01:00:04
I mean, that's where the feminists really start getting pissed. Is that that women were created for men and from men
01:00:12
And so that is again this these coverings Represent all of that and it's really restoring order in Among God's people in a chaotic Society that wants to be disordered.
01:00:32
And so I think that's really the Also, let me just ask you the question. Let's just say that you get to a place where you're like This could be right and I'm kind of just 50 -50.
01:00:43
I'm on the fence. I Go well, what's the downside? Like would you rather you know go before the
01:00:50
Lord and go, you know what I really wasn't Completely sure but so I decided to you know, my wife decided to cover her head out of a reverence and And by the way, like women look awesome with head coverings.
01:01:06
I mean, they just look more attractive I mean like you just look at a woman wearing a shawl on her head and like there's paintings throughout church history and They're just beautiful.
01:01:16
I mean, they're just like it's just a beautiful Glorious thing, but let's just say you you know, you get before the
01:01:22
Lord obviously this hypothetical You know, hey, I I never really knew but I thought I would just essentially be safe You know, would you rather stand there you go
01:01:32
You know what? I was not sure but I didn't do it. Anyways, and you're like well God's like well it was a command
01:01:39
You know, I think there's it's just an element there. You just go I'm just gonna I'm gonna err on the side of covering because there's no downside
01:01:46
In fact, there's many many upsides Especially in our generation and I again, I know that's not the the argument you want to anchor on But it's one of it's one of the many arguments if you're do all the exegesis and you still land on the fence
01:02:00
It is the safer position. I think is what you're saying and I think that's accurate because if God is commanding women to put a covering on their head other than their hair if That is the command and you do it even if you're doing it out of ignorance
01:02:18
Okay, you're you're following the command, but if it is a command and you're not doing it because well, I haven't studied or something like that You know, well now that's you're you're disobedient
01:02:29
So I think I think you make a really good point there of the as far as if you're not sure if you're on the fence
01:02:37
We should you know, do we take the safer argument until we do the study? to be convinced otherwise because The the ultimate issue
01:02:47
I think in this passage is about the authority issue which
01:02:53
Was an issue back then is an issue today and has always been an issue. I think ever since the fall
01:03:01
And it that it's because Paul's whole argument is based in creation here
01:03:08
Yes Yeah, and By the way, let me just go back real quick because I found this quote from the
01:03:15
RC Sproul as he said He said all I know is this There might be a commandment in Scripture that requires a woman to cover her head and worship
01:03:24
But there is certainly not a commandment in Scripture that forbids a woman from covering her head and worship Therefore the woman who covers her head is merely taking the safer and more logical position end quote and I loved that from Sproul There's another quote from Sproul in this in the book that I have
01:03:43
He says, you know Essentially, I can't find a red this segment. He grows up Always seen women covering his head.
01:03:52
They said when he was a child I'm obviously, you know, that was almost you know, almost a decade or almost a century ago now, you know
01:03:58
And so I think that there's just again that safer position. I Think between history the historical argument, which is vital and easy to be convinced by I think the
01:04:11
Exegetical argument is persuasive at the very least I think the kind of argument of conviction that I just shared with you right now and Because all of that again is anchored in creation and angels and the unchanging authorities structure and we live in a time of feminist ideological overthrow
01:04:33
I just think that we're gonna see a massive wave of godly women that push into head coverings
01:04:45
And I think the arguments that the other popular argument is You know, oh, it's just a symbol.
01:04:52
It can be like your Wedding ring is like the equivalent of today's head covering, you know
01:05:00
But I go that argument I try to deal with two is that I go where do you separate in Scripture a practice from its symbols
01:05:09
Never like, you know, I know it's saying water should be involved in baptism, but let's use wind Okay, let's just you know, you would never separate a practice from its symbol
01:05:18
No, no the cover a covering is a covering and so So just say that the covering is a wedding ring, which is interesting because Doug Wilson, you know
01:05:28
Who is you know been kind of a mentor to me? Holds that position
01:05:33
John MacArthur Holds that position to or something they both hold something near to that and so again
01:05:41
I think they they just started their ministries in the midst of like the height of Throwing off the old way and I really see
01:05:51
Gen -z Fascinatingly, you've probably seen this as a pastor Lots of young people coming into our church that are going back to the old paths
01:06:01
Basically like the boomers parents way and and In fact also we also sadly are seen
01:06:12
Thousands upon thousands of Christians going to EO and to Rome Yeah, and and you know, what's pulling them some of them in is head coverings
01:06:21
They're seeing that the women over there are actually submissive head covering wearing women and all these men are running over there because they're
01:06:29
Just looking for a non -feminist woman in today's, you know chaotic age And so so there is a lot going on around this particular practice
01:06:37
Well, I one of the things I find so interesting and I think this was your testimony as well that you mentioned is
01:06:44
How many men I know? Have started studying out the issue of head coverings changed their view, but it was their wives
01:06:53
That were first convinced Before them so because this is the the perception
01:06:58
I think many have is that it's some man who is lording it over the woman and saying you will do this because you will submit to me and yet what in granted just anecdotal evidence is not proof, but Ever for me every single man,
01:07:16
I know who changed his view on this issue Had a wife who first was convinced and I I just find that fascinating and I don't know if that's more widespread
01:07:28
Then I know It certainly so women tend so one godly
01:07:34
Christian women Typically, by the way, I've also learned this through ministry is that Women who are loved heard and cherished almost never have a problem with this passage of Scripture I mean they read it face value.
01:07:48
They just cover their head it's it's women who have either been told by their husbands to not cover or women who have terrible husbands and they don't want to Demonstrate or display the authority their husband has over them
01:08:02
And so so when I when I see women that are that are like so against head covering
01:08:10
I either go. Okay. Well, maybe they're just ignorant. They haven't studied the topic But if they have read it or had they have studied and they are still pushing against it usually it's indicative of something going on at home
01:08:24
That's just been a generalization but like I posted a thing on on X today and it happened to have a little bit of virality and it was a picture of my wife with their head covered reading the
01:08:35
Bible to our kids this morning during homeschool and Yeah You know, there's all these
01:08:43
Left -wing libs. They're quote tweeting it. I mean, I mean hundreds of them people, you know Christian Taliban is what one says
01:08:50
These kids look like they're terrified Feminine poverty
01:08:57
That had covering it laughing my a off You know what in the
01:09:03
F is this what is on her head this poor woman looks like a slave Okay So over and over and over again
01:09:09
But but this is coming from women who also are saying that to prove that they have that they're you know
01:09:16
Have power over men they go on only only fans and display themselves, right? Okay, just I mean the first way feminists were trying to say we're not sex just sex objects
01:09:27
We're more we you know, we could do things and now feminism has taught them has reverted right back
01:09:34
We're now it's the feminists saying no, we're sex objects Like yeah, you have no no knowledge of the history of feminists like first way feminism would be yelling at the modern -day
01:09:45
Feminists today. Oh, yeah So it's certainly
01:09:51
Again I think that we're about to see a whole pendulum shift starting with the reformed community
01:09:58
I don't I think the that Rome and EO I Don't really think they've had much of a break from this
01:10:07
Like Protestantism has but I think low church Casualized Protestantism has essentially become the laughingstock of Christendom In the sense of its lack of seriousness, and so I think a lot of Christians young Christians specifically are not looking for you know, they're not looking for rock band
01:10:27
Christianity anymore they're not looking for kind of the You know wear shorts to church
01:10:34
You know You know again casualized Christianity They're looking for something more serious.
01:10:41
Now. I want to stay with the regulative principle of worship But they're looking for you know more beautiful buildings they're understanding architecture they're understanding addresses on women they're understanding head coverings they're understanding
01:10:53
Clerical, you know vestments or some of those things that might be discussed their understanding they're returning to you know hymns and and piano and some of the more beautiful instruments and and Liturgy and and you know some of the deeper things that historically the church has done
01:11:09
And and so I think head coverings is kind of part of this whole kind of revival
01:11:17
Toward, you know, we've seen that to trad wives and the trad life and some of those things that have been returning I think it's all good things.
01:11:23
I think it's great things I think it's order being restored and people are mocking it and calling it
01:11:28
Oh trad and blah blah blah No I just think that it's just normal biblical life when you have a wife that wants to you know
01:11:34
Cover her head and homeschool her kids and read the Bible but But I do think that we're gonna see a resurgence of Women wearing head coverings in mass.
01:11:44
I'm talking Potentially millions over the next like 10 years Yeah I mean you bring up something a friend of mine
01:11:50
Matt slick and I've been discussing there seems to be a resurgence of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and we've been trying to like figure out, you know,
01:11:59
I like why I mean we're seeing You know guys like Russell Brand who go out there and everyone wants to follow him in It's like oh, he talks a lot about Jesus and then you go.
01:12:08
Oh wait, but he's talking Catholicism. Like that's a different Jesus and so That's a that's a fascinating subject that I've been
01:12:16
Matt and I've been discussing recently but a last question that I have for you is you know,
01:12:22
I I'm starting to see as you're explaining a shift and I am seeing it within reformed circles of women wanting to wear head coverings
01:12:32
Then guys studying it and changing positions and I am seeing that more and more
01:12:39
Do you think as someone who has studied this and and researched it Do you think that this?
01:12:47
shift to head coverings is You know in response to what we've been seeing
01:12:53
I mean we're seeing a response to the feminism that has been gone on for years you know look we that not to get political but the
01:13:02
This past election. What would we see? we saw so much of you know, the only vote that mattered for years was the woman vote the woman vote the one vote and Trump wins
01:13:13
And a lot of people go. Oh he won on this masculinity and like a bunch of guys just said Enough of this my vote counts too.
01:13:20
It seems like there's there seems to be a rebellion against the feminism culturally
01:13:27
Because they're just so sick of being told they have to be Feminist men they have to you know, because now it's not even that they now they just have to be women period like now
01:13:37
No, you're you have to be a woman. It's a the the feminist the feminist created
01:13:45
This problem they created Andrew Tate they created monsters on the other side
01:13:53
They they are biblical Christianity biblical patriarchy biblical order
01:13:59
It needs to return as the the old way restored and again, we've thrown off everything in the church growth movement and the pageantry we've thrown off all structure all beauty all uniforms all you know, we've gone low church to the max and And I think we are needing to return back to again regular principle of worship but what would like a
01:14:30
Puritan Church look like and You know the 1750s and you go back there and you go, okay.
01:14:37
Yeah you walk in It's probably a cute little colonial style church with a steeple and a bell Church bell that's ringing and you have probably a pastor investments or wearing a collar
01:14:46
You have women wearing dresses and head coverings you have men wearing suits Everybody's got their Bible in hand You got a beautiful pew or beautiful pews beautiful pulpit that is kind of like the throne for the
01:14:55
Word of God You have you know singing that's congregational. You're probably singing more hymns. And so I Think again, we are seeing feminism
01:15:06
Is is a bigger problem than the church realized and how it if feminized men and pastors
01:15:13
Because again, I don't think this path. I don't think this passage of Scripture is Hard to understand
01:15:19
I think it's hard to swallow I think that it's I think that it's men are so afraid of women especially pastors
01:15:28
They are they you know, we know historically Statistically church splits happen because of women women have the power to break a church apart and so so I think that men have not pastored women
01:15:46
By and large for like the last 50 years they have been like the unpastored portion of the church
01:15:54
They have been generally pastored but men calling out women's sins has been extremely rare They have they'll hit the end.
01:16:03
We see this always in like, you know, I use it as a kind of a funny joke But you know on Father's Day, it's like, you know be a man do hard work better, you know, step it up You know
01:16:13
Mother's Day. It's like you're perfect. You're just stay the same, you know And and so we want to get to a place where we're pastors are not just the pastors of the men
01:16:23
Not just the pastors of the wind of the children, but they're the pastors of the women and if you're willing to pastor the women and you're not afraid of the women and And the women in your church will actually be willing to not just be preached at but be pastored
01:16:40
Then you can get to a place where you can you can get to Text like first Corinthians 11 teach it without fear and go.
01:16:47
You know what? I think evidence is all on the side of wearing head coverings and not worry that your
01:16:53
Women are gonna go all up in arms cause a massive division in your church Call you some sort of misogynistic pig and break your church apart
01:17:01
But I think that is exactly the reason why I wasn't taught for the last several decades And and I think that we're returning now finally women are like, you know what feminism sucks?
01:17:11
And this is this has been terrible for everybody we're starting to see how where this is going and I think that it's actually quite glorious to have a
01:17:20
Godly masculine man and for me to wear a dress and stay at home and not work in a cubicle There's there's there's more reception to this discussion around head coverings.
01:17:31
Yeah, it's interesting as you hear guys preach through Ephesians 5 and what do they have they get to the passage, you know
01:17:39
Women submit to your husbands and and all the talk is about what submission doesn't mean
01:17:45
Yeah, and then it's men love your wives, right? I just always found that an interesting thing and you know, you you mentioned about the the splits in churches
01:17:55
I've often said the the the most splits in churches start in women's ministry
01:18:00
Because because you're pointing out that the pastors are preaching to men about men's sins things like that But women's ministries are
01:18:10
We actually have a podcast called thoroughly equipped with Melissa Lex and what she does is review women's ministries
01:18:19
Because so much of what is called women's ministries Isn't ministry,
01:18:25
I mean it's it's it's false teaching and heresy in in You know clouded in women talk and so she exposes that because so much of it.
01:18:36
It looks You know, my bride is it's great, you know They'd have women's Bible studies in church and and she'll be like, yeah,
01:18:44
I don't want to do it I'd rather go like if there's a woman's conferences, I'd rather go with you to a pastor's conference I don't need all that fluff.
01:18:50
I give me the Bible, you know, yeah, like I actually at our church I So we have four quadrants of our of our women's what they do is is one
01:19:01
They do women teaching older women teaching younger women. So we do that for a quarter. So Titus 2 the second quarter of the year we do a book study and a book study that is approved by the elders of the church and In the questions for the study are developed by the elders of the church.
01:19:20
Oh interesting. I like and then and then then part three is
01:19:26
I actually teach an 8 to 12 week study at the women's gathering
01:19:32
So I come to the women's meetings and I actually give full -blown lectures for if we're doing systematic theology or something
01:19:38
So they're learning it, but they're learning it from their pastor, which is what has always happened historically and then the fourth
01:19:44
Quadrant of the year is we do a co -ed Bible study Together and so that structure has been really good for us.
01:19:51
So the women are never like on their own Learning theology without the oversight of a pastor.
01:19:59
Yeah, that's that's interesting to do So so let me let me get back to the question because I think it is an interesting question.
01:20:07
Do you how much of? You we are both noticing you and I both mentioned we're noticing this trend and it's starting with women of wanting to wear head coverings men following at least within reformed circles, but And I've noticed that there's now more so starting to be a trend of both men and women looking for masculinity looking
01:20:31
Didn't to not follow what they're calling feminism today Do you think that the trend of head coverings is because of this trend?
01:20:42
against feminism and for masculinity just in America today or do you do you maybe see because you were mentioning that you're seeing people going to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because of possibly head covering or other things
01:20:59
Is what what are you attributing this this shift to with women wearing head coverings?
01:21:05
I don't think that the cause of head coverings is is the feminism
01:21:12
Reverting back to traditionalism. I think that it's the scriptures that are very clear But as feminism loses its grip on the church because there's always been this clean form of feminism in the church that We're finally able to obey without You know fear and we've truly been able to have we've had a cowardice in the church for a long time and I think that the removal of feminism is allowing men to pastor the women again and head coverings just kind of seems to be square at the center of the discussion
01:21:52
You know, I wrote another book called the manliness of Christ It's kind of like the partner copy to cover for glory
01:21:58
But it's for men and I'm trying to essentially one side boost up the masculinity of men
01:22:04
But based off of the masculinity of Christ and then You know as you've read in a cover for glory it's it's really about what does it mean to be a feminine woman and and it's kind of ties into head coverings and so We're actually like those are the two books that we sell the most we sell over a hundred copies of each of those a month
01:22:24
And I don't market them. Honestly, like I mean, I'm on I'm on a podcast Yeah, but I'm not like I don't have any like ads going for these books.
01:22:31
And so there seems to be certainly a hunger To sell a hundred copies a month on head coverings.
01:22:39
That's a new that's a new thing, you know Yeah, I'm actually surprised by that and and again folks to get a copy and look
01:22:46
Yeah, I don't I think you've mentioned the title once in this whole podcast episode
01:22:51
I think I've I'm the one promoting it for folks, but but you can go to relearn dot -org slash glory to get a copy of a cover for glory a biblical defense ahead coverings
01:23:04
I Don't Dale and myself are not saying you must believe what the what this book is saying
01:23:10
I don't think that's your position now, but no may it be something that we at least research study dig into and and I think a compelling argument that that I'm you know,
01:23:24
I'm dealing with is is like you said The quote from R .C. Sproul was was a powerful one of just saying it's the safer position
01:23:30
If you're not sure this is the safer position to hold to until you are sure
01:23:36
That becomes a very intriguing By the way, like I I've also personally
01:23:45
I've never taught on first Corinthians 11 at my church So people always have this, you know view
01:23:51
Oh Dale must enforce head coverings at his church I I don't actually in fact, I I haven't taught on it once since we planted the church one day
01:23:59
I'll get to first Corinthians 11 and I'll teach on it, but We actually, you know, we have women in our church that don't cover and I haven't said a thing to any of them
01:24:09
So I really do let it sit on on the family's conscience. I believe it's a secondary matter and But I do answer
01:24:17
I do a Q &A at the end of the book of Common questions that I think most women and men and pastors have said has been one of the most helpful sections of the book
01:24:26
Like what do you do if you come to this position? What do you do if I'm a pastor and come to this position?
01:24:33
What do you do if my husband's against this position and I'm for this position, you know So there's all types of stuff that are answered there
01:24:40
And so that's my hope is that it's just one of the tools contributing to the conversation around head coverings
01:24:47
For the church, which is really a conversation about restoring order among men and women So again, the book is a cover for glory a biblical defense of head coverings
01:24:59
You can get it at reorg dot or relearn. Sorry relearn org Slash glory.
01:25:05
Yeah anything else you'd like to share with folks any any things you have going on with your ministry that We that listeners should know about I Mean the one thing is if you want to listen to the audio book of a cover for glory or have it as an ebook
01:25:21
It's available in the relearn app All my books are available in there as well as Hundreds almost almost a thousand audio books in there now
01:25:31
We've we've just spent so much time modernizing great Puritan work We we just put in some
01:25:38
William Gouge content Reformation heritage just did a big piece on them
01:25:44
But we we are we did one called the beauty of submission We've got the mission of womanhood
01:25:51
There's so many great topics in there for women for men for kids in high quality
01:25:58
Narrated audio books. I'm an audio guy and I just when you drive a lot and you have travels and so I just you know
01:26:05
It's a tool that's available for you And it's we're nonprofit. So it's a way to support us as a ministry to keep producing great content for families that would be my only encouragement is check that out and a great way to support what we're doing again folks relearn org slash glory
01:26:24
Hey get a copy of the book read through it See what your position is see where you agree disagree with Dale and Maybe you'll change your view
01:26:34
Maybe you won't but may it at least encourage you to dig into the scriptures more that Would that of all would be
01:26:43
I think the the thing that both Dale and I would encourage Whether you agree with one or both of us or neither of us
01:26:51
At least dig into the scriptures because the scriptures God's Word is Far more important than anything that Dale has written or anything that I have written
01:27:02
So with that Dale, thanks. Thanks for coming on. I think this was I think this will be helpful for many
01:27:07
I think that your book really got me having to deal with some thinking through, you know It's an as a passage.
01:27:13
Like I said, I studied at a surface level There were some interesting things as I studied through it when when
01:27:21
I got to the area of you again You always come with your presuppositions my presupposition as I was taught was this is dealing with hair
01:27:28
There was some issues in the Greek that I was struggling with that view And and I haven't really returned to it because I'd be honest.
01:27:38
I just put it off going Well, I had so many other things. I knew it was gonna take more work It's a podcast episode that I I had for years that people said would you would you cover this?
01:27:48
No pun intended. Sorry about that. But here we are But but you know,
01:27:54
I was glad when you and I were on the dead man walking podcast I was like, well, I'm definitely gonna have you on cuz it'll force me to have to address this issue
01:28:02
And so it'll get me studying it a bit more. So I do want to thank you personally for that.
01:28:07
Amen, brother Thanks for having me and folks with that. I do want to let you know
01:28:13
February I think it is the 20. I'm gonna look it up 22nd, but we will be at There is a conference
01:28:22
You could go to Caleb Gordon org we were gonna be having a conference there in Oklahoma and That is something that we just recently popped up on the schedule
01:28:34
So to get tickets a lot of great preachers One of my favorite preachers and in most of you
01:28:41
I'm gonna mention this name and you're gonna go who is he? He is one of my top Probably my top ten preachers is
01:28:48
Brandon scoff And if you don't know that name you should come to this conference just to hear him
01:28:53
Yes, I put him up there with the preaching of guys like John MacArthur and well my favorite preacher
01:29:01
Jim Osmond Who's another one if you don't know his preaching yet go go get the
01:29:06
Kootenai Community Church Podcast that's part of the Christian podcast community to listen to that but you can get tickets just go to Caleb Gordon org.
01:29:16
It's part of the Caleb Gordon show and Join that conference tickets are
01:29:21
I think about $50 right now? So that is not that steep for a conference with great speakers.
01:29:27
It's a one -day conference So you you if you're local, you don't have to worry about hotels things like that.
01:29:32
But if you are local, well I'm sure we're gonna find something to do Friday night Saturday night if you want to stay over both nights, but hope to see you there and folks with that.
01:29:44
That's a wrap This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church