May 12, 2020 Show with Jeffrey D. Johnson on “Counterfeit Communion”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

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have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of

humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming

at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on

this 12th day of May, 2020, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning

guest, Jeffrey D. Johnson.

He's founder of Free Grace Press and pastor of Grace Bible Church in

Conway, Arkansas, home of the Grace Bible Institute.

Today we are going to be addressing the theme Counterfeit Communion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you

back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeffrey D. Johnson.

Thanks, Chris.

It's good to be back on your show.

I appreciate all that you do and enjoy listening to your show.

Well, privilege is all mine, brother.

Well, why don't you let our listeners know about the Grace Bible Institute that you

are a part of.

Yeah, I got called into the ministry

in three years

study.

We

have

been

about

a year since we

moved.

And now tell us about Grace Bible Church in Conway, Arkansas.

Yeah, we're celebrating our 20 -year anniversary.

Amen.

Well, for those of you who want to find out more about the Grace Bible Church in

Conway, Arkansas, you can go to their website, gbcconway

.com, gbcconway .com.

And for the Grace Bible Institute, you can go to gracebible

.institute, gracebible .institute, one of those newfangled

websites where you don't need a .com or .org or .edu.

Great.

Well, hopefully we'll remember to repeat that information later.

Well, communion has become a

topic that has been discussed probably

with more animated disagreement in recent days than it has

been for a little while anyway.

I mean, the subject of the ordinance or sacrament of communion, the Lord's Supper,

that has been an issue that has always brought with it debate and

persecution and execution.

And thankfully, in this day and age, we don't see the persecution and

execution anymore over that issue anyway.

But it is an issue that really came again, returned to the

forefront, when the coronavirus

caused a bit of a hysteria, I believe, and governing powers

all over the United States and in other parts of the world, I think, have

overreached a bit in what they are doing as far as restricting

things, especially the worship of God's people.

And one of the reasons why communion has come up is that there have been some folks

who have begun to practice virtual communion.

And if you could, give me your comments on that, kind of a communion service where every individual

is in a separate place, namely their own home, and you have a minister who is

blessing the elements while people at home who already have their own portion

partake of their portion while they're in their own home.

Tell us your thoughts on that.

Yeah, to me it's kind of alarming.

To give passage to the

doubt, we

must

observe this, and we definitely have spirit.

I know I'm not there

presently, but when

it comes to communion, there is

this Christ and people united

to one another.

You have a piece of bread in your hand, and we don't actually need these.

It feels like you're

eating it

physically in the same room.

Well, yeah, I'd like you to do that throughout the program today, which is unpack

what the truly biblical Lord's Supper is, and I know that in your article

you are being critical of two extremes on opposite ends of the spectrum

of belief, where you have the sacerdotal view where

the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, the Holy Eucharist,

becomes like magic, and then on the other end of the spectrum it barely has any meaning at

all, which is why many churches

who are now practicing the virtual worship services, while

people are in their homes, many of these churches may not really care all

that much.

I'm not saying all, but many of them may not care all that much about the fact

that the Lord's Supper is absent from their worship.

It has become that trivial, a

diminished view of even farther below the

strictly memorial view.

No, no, it's a sad case.

Reformers

had to deal

with censure

by the act

before, regardless if they have faith.

While

perspectivists,

you

know, it was the secret.

Would what you're describing be known as ex operato?

Yes, exactly right.

Which is a Latin phrase, which means it works by the act performed.

That's particularly important.

It's also

another re

-sacrificing, and you're actually eating

the body.

Idolatrous.

Idolatrous, yeah.

We want to run from that.

Sadly, they only have the Lord's Supper once a year, and when they do do it, they do it on a Sunday night.

We

forget

the

fact.

I think we need to, you know,.

Yes, and before you go into that, I just had one comment.

I was a bit surprised that you thought the ones who had a more trivial or meaningless

view of the Supper would be the ones to bring it home, to have it in their virtual worship service.

I would have thought that people who thought it was more essential might do that.

Like, for instance, the Roman Catholic Church will, because they have such

an elevated and idolatrous understanding of the Lord's Supper, they will bring it

to you if you're in the hospital, and they will bring it to you if it's an

emergency kind of a situation.

Right, right, right.

If you are separate from the body, meaning the corporate gathering

of the people.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, you're right, because it's really both extremes.

You have Catholics, but what

we're about

to get into is meaning.

A very extreme meaning is tied

up to the Lord.

If you minimize it, you're going to end up...

Okay, well, what is it, what does it do, and how does it do what it does?

Yeah, okay, well, what does it do?

How

does

the

Spirit

need

anything

else?

Now, why

do

you

think

the

Church

does

not

identify

preaching

and

praying.

And the other means of grace as ordinances as well?

Okay, the simple answer is that ordinances are means of grace, but preaching is not an ordinance.

And the difference between that is that the ordinances, or if we want to call them sacraments,

I

imagine

those

Protestants and

Bible

-believing

Christians

who

shy

away,.

Or even disdain the term sacrament is because

they rightly, I'm not saying that the reaction is right, but they rightly want to

distance themselves as far as they can from the superstitious and idolatrous understanding

of the sacraments that is held by the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Yeah, yeah, and I don't blame them for that.

I don't blame them for that, because I withheld from saying the word sacrament many years in our church because I

didn't want Catholic, you know, because, oh, that's very dangerous, so I would just say

ordinances.

And I think in many contexts, that's probably the wise thing to do.

But I also think sometimes, you know, and

then

the

other extreme,

I kind of go back, if you

have, I wouldn't think

that's wise.

I just think that you shouldn't go overboard in condemning it either.

No, that's right, yeah.

And for those of my fundamentalist friends who may be listening, who may be

infuriated by the acceptance of the term sacrament, don't forget Charles Haddon Spurgeon used that

term.

And most of my fundie friends love Charles Haddon Spurgeon,

at least when they're not dwelling too much on his writings on Calvinism, which

he truly cherished.

And, of course, there are fundamentalists who are Calvinists as well, but many who are not.

We have to go to our first break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Jeffrey D. Johnson on counterfeit communion, our email

address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if

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Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Now, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jeffrey D. Johnson and more on counterfeit communion right after these

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And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Jeffrey D. Johnson, founder of Free Grace

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We are discussing today counterfeit communion and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And if you could further explore exactly what it is that the Lord's

Supper is.

Yeah, the Lord's Supper, well, it is a means of grace like we were talking about.

It's a means which God has chosen.

It is His communion.

We're having communion with the Lord Jesus Christ and His physical body is not there, as John Calvin says.

It's not like those elements turn into the body.

They represent it.

It's a spiritual presence.

Jesus is still God.

He's still omnipresent and He's here to meet with us.

We know He's with us in a

particular way.

It's a means which God ministers to us.

We have

bread and we have wine.

Most people, two things that I

think is so important, and I teach

ecclesiology in our seminary, the ordinances I say,

the efficacy is in their minds.

It means nothing.

I mean, it does nothing.

It will not help us at all if we get the meaning wrong because one of the things that ties

all the means to grace together to make them words of

understanding, without

God ministering to us, there's no grace without the mind being

engaged.

If we just passed out elements, here's some bread, here's some wine, and we didn't say what

they meant, there would be empty symbols

that would do nothing and communicate and

it just meant nothing.

It's of no value.

Cognitive understanding and God speaks through the mind to speak

to us.

We need to know the meaning behind it.

Only by the meaning will they actually be efficacious.

Only will we be built up in our most holy faith and be nourished.

And that's so

important in

this debate when it comes to how are they to be properly

observed.

We do this at home.

It's a general communion.

It comes down to this.

What does it mean?

And as a Baptist,

I think immersion is important because it means something.

Immersion actually communicates something.

The act of

drinking

water speaks of

a barrier or you've

been immersed into Christ.

You've been hidden from God.

That old man is dead.

And the way you do it, the method in which you carry this out,

communicates something, being communicated.

It's vital to carry out its meaning.

We need to know,

we all know it represents Christ and his body.

We also know that it represents, these are the things that get covered.

It's more than a memorial, but it's nothing less than a

memorial.

So one of the meaning of it is we're looking back.

We're looking back at his death, a body

severed in the flesh.

He took on our flesh and that's one

of the meanings.

And most people will amen that.

Oh yes, that's what it means.

Remember Christ.

In fact, before you go to any other meanings, we've got to go to our midway break.

So if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own,

send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And please, I first of all ask of you, for your patience during this break.

It's the longer than normal break that we have.

And that's because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM, in Lake City, Florida,

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I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always

been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

This is Andrew Rappaport with Striving for Eternity Ministries.

Are you cooped up at home?

Are you just desiring to use your time wisely?

Well, Justin Peters and I got together and realized that our calendars were cleared because of

COVID -19.

So we decided we would get together and do our Snatch Them from the Flames Seminar

Home Edition.

That's right.

A free seminar May 30th from 10 a .m. to 6 p .m. Eastern

Time.

We're going to give you a free seminar that you can take at home.

We're going to cover the topics of the sufficiency of Scripture, interpreting Scripture, discerning false teachers,

identifying to false teachers, and then a Q &A.

Get all the details at strivingforeternity .org and there you can go to the

online events to register before May 30th.

And we'll see you there online in your home.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many

uncertainties.

When will it end?

Why do disasters like this happen?

How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

Join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and

Pastor Joe Jacowicz as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of

life's related issues.

Tune in at firstloveradio .org.

That's firstloveradio .org each Friday at 1 p .m. Pacific,

4 p .m. Eastern.

That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific,

4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how

we should respond.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, you can call cvbbs .com at their toll -free

number, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656

-0231.

You can call that number Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time.

Those are the only days and hours that phone line is manned and there is no voicemail.

So call Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time

at 800 -656 -0231.

Always mention that you heard about CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Well, before we return to our guest, Jeffrey D. Johnson, we just have a couple of announcements to make.

First of all, tomorrow, that is Wednesday, the 13th

of May, we have, after a long absence, returning to my program, one of our key

sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law.

And Dan is going to be addressing his ministry, the Historical Bible

Society.

And basically, this is a fascinating thing that he does.

He has a vast collection of very rare and very valuable

Bibles and Christian books of antiquity, some even dating back

prior to the Reformation.

And he travels on the East Coast to churches,

schools, and parachurch ministries to put these Bibles and

books on display.

And he gives a presentation, an absolutely fascinating presentation, on how he received

the Bible in the English language.

And I've seen him do this probably 10 times, and I've never been bored by it.

I am always riveted to what he's saying.

So that is actually the theme of the show, how we received the Bible in the English

language on Wednesday, that's tomorrow, Wednesday, May 13th.

On Thursday, the 14th, we have returning to the program, all the way from Northern

Ireland, Angus Stewart.

And we did not yet pick out a theme, but we will let you know what our

topic will be as soon as possible.

And then on Friday, Pastor Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California,

returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to continue his weekly coronavirus

update, and also providing Biblical application that the

body of Christ should follow in response to these updates that we hear.

And so that's the remainder of the week.

And this is the last part of my commentary

before Pastor Jeffrey

D. Johnson, before he returns to be interviewed.

This is my least favorite part of the program.

I really despise this part of the program, but it's a necessary part of the program.

We need your help financially.

If you want this program to remain on the air, and you have extra funds,

then please consider sharing some of those funds with us, because we are in

urgent need of them.

As I always try to remember to remind you, I never want anybody to siphon money

away from their regular giving that they're accustomed to, to their local church, in order to give to

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Please never do that, especially during this coronavirus hysteria that's going on, and

many churches have been hit extremely hard financially.

So please, especially if your church is one of them, don't siphon money away from them

to give to us, and please don't put your own family in financial jeopardy either

by giving to us.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for your church

and home, then we would love to receive financial

gifts, and we are in urgent need of them.

You may have extra money because you're not going out to dinner, you're not going to concerts, you're not

going to the movies, you're not going to theatrical performances, you're not

going to Bible conferences, you're not going to your favorite sporting events, and you may have extra money.

Well, please, can you share some of that with us, if you love the show?

And if you don't love the show, I'm not sure why you're listening.

But if you love the show and you don't want us to disappear, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card, and you can also send in a check via

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And I just ask of you folks to pray

for us, pray that we get more donors coming in and more advertisers.

If you want to advertise with us, then

just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put advertising in the

subject line.

Also, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully

looking for one, please rectify that situation immediately.

I may be able to help you find a church, because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I have helped

many people find churches that they have joined, or where they have visited when they're on vacation,

or where they have recommended their friends and family and loved ones attend when they do not have

a church of their own.

So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

By the way folks, I do want to thank all of you, from the bottom of my heart, who have been answering

my SOS's for financial help.

There is a woman in Texas, who I had never heard from before,

who is very blessed by this show.

I'm still going to try to get permission to mention her by name, at least her first name,

but I haven't gotten that yet, so I won't identify her.

But she has broken all records with financial giving on I Am Trippin' Zion Radio,

and I thank God for her.

Her gift could not have arrived at a more appropriate time, and so you know who you are if

you're listening.

Thank you so much.

And all of you who have been giving regularly, some of you have been longtime

supporters, some of you have been brand new supporters, I thank God for all of you, because this show

could not exist without you.

And if you have a question for our guest, Pastor Jeffrey D. Johnson, on our subject Counterfeit

Communion, send us an email now at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And if you could, before we take any listener call, Pastor Jeff,

if you could pick up where you left off on the meaning of the Lord's Supper.

Yeah, so it reminds us of the death.

The other two meanings flow from that.

That's the principal meaning is the root meaning behind the other two.

We have that meaning, hey, we're principally being reminded through these symbols.

He physically died.

He physically rose again.

The man, Jesus Christ, who had a body.

It also speaks of marriage supper.

One day, eat, have a meal with the Lord Jesus.

He says, I'm not going to

taste of this as long as you do this in remembrance of me.

And it's just like we're to do this as an ongoing ordinance until the end.

Actually, eat with him

totally.

But I do know we're going to have a resurrected body, and

there's going to be, if you

will, this great celebration,

arranged by people over

your house.

Often there's a meal involved.

If you go on a date with someone, you take them to a rest.

Interacting with people and fellowshipping and talking.

You know, you eat with people you care about, not people you don't care.

Some meals speak of fellowship, and we're looking for that.

One day, a taste of heaven.

So I believe when we have communion, we're having a

appetizer, if you

will.

What a beautiful thing that is.

And where there's real love and companionship.

Christ, it's fellowship.

When you

assemble together, the Lord's Supper is

simple.

When you come together, as Paul says, as a church, coming together is part of what a church does.

It's a central part of what the church is.

It visibly comes together, not just

in the people, and you're rubbing shoulders with people.

And that's why Paul identifies communion

as one cup.

Obviously it speaks about the one Savior that we have.

There's

one

bread

communion because of and based on our communion

with Jesus Christ.

The body of Christ is based upon the fact that Jesus died for

us And I think that's a vital part of what Christianity is and the

Christian life is, and the church is.

Ecclesiology in Christianity, if you don't understand the church,

added to the Christian life.

It's a vital part of the very makeup of the Christian identity, that we're not just me,

myself, and I with the Lord.

It's not just a relationship that's

incommunical.

Your prayer calls it.

It is that.

But that's not all that it is.

One, we are

actually, and this is

the body of Christ.

And the Bible says,

Now do you think

that that happens

today?

I think we need to be worried that it will happen today.

I don't know of any case that it has happened, but I could imagine if it has

happened, we're chalking

up to some of the

fact that treating the Lord's body with discernment.

Happening today, how would we know?

Right.

And, of course, the biblical writers were writing things that were

God -breathed, so they knew from divine revelation.

But the warning is for all of us.

That's the thing we should take is from this.

Look how serious it was.

Now, does that happen all the time?

No, it doesn't happen.

I'll thank the Lord it doesn't, but at the same time, early church

worship of God is.

And it may be a judgment upon the church that God doesn't do that and

live a disrespectful

view of God.

It may be more of a judgment for God

just

to be reminded of the fact that people have died because they didn't take this serious.

Remember, the elements represent the body of Christ.

His body is in heaven, but his spiritual body is still on earth.

The church is the body of Christ.

So discerning the Lord's body includes discerning the elements that what we're doing, that we're right with God,

but it also means the body,

why you

shouldn't.

They were taking the Lord's Supper, breaking

apart to

have enough.

They were making it into

a meal, which is not meant to be a meal.

The ordinance is not meant to be a meal.

We know that because they said, listen, if you want to eat, you can eat at home.

If you want food and nourishment, you've got a home to do that in.

But when you come together, this is

not about just eating or getting all full on food.

It's not what this is for.

If you do that at home, that's fine.

And if you want to have a few friends over, you can do that at home.

But when you come together as a church, discern the Lord's body and make sure that everybody has enough

and that basically their exhortation is do this together because it

symbolizes our oneness.

How does that communicate it if you're doing it at home?

If buried into Christ and the old man dying

and the new man, and that is perfectly symbolically

displayed through baptism, through immersion into water and coming out of that water.

That's a great picture of the spiritual reality.

All of a sudden the mode of baptism is

very important because the truth is in its efficacy.

The truth is in how you communicate this.

And so if one of the major truths of the Lord's Supper is our physical

union and unity and fellowship with the saints together in one place, if that is

one of the, that we are actually having communion together with Christ Jesus, it's not just symbolizes

it, but it also facilitates what it communicates.

All of

a sudden it

turns

the...

Well, we have a listener who is remaining anonymous who asks,

typically in a Reformed Baptist church, you will hear the elders,

before they start distributing the elements of the supper, warn

those who are in attendance that they should not partake of the

supper unless they are baptized.

Where the difference between Reformed Baptist churches come into play is that

many will offer the supper to Presbyterians who are present, even if they have

only been baptized as infants, whereas that is not baptism

and therefore you have some others, probably a minority of Reformed Baptists, that would prefer

their Presbyterian brethren as much as they cherish them not partake in the supper.

How do you respond to this difference?

Yeah, this is a Reformed Baptist.

You have John Bunyan who was a supper in his

church and he made exceptions and Bunyan got a lot of flack

for this.

You could take communion before baptism if baptism was something you intended to do as soon as possible.

So let's say if you're once a year, eight months

before that baptismal service is going to take place, with examination you could go ahead and

partake, knowing that you'd be baptized first.

That was Bunyan's position.

A lot of the other Reformed Baptists kind of opposed that and said, no, you should wait.

...into the local church ordinance, and Lord's

Supper follows.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession,

I think all that

you can make,

even though I want Presbyterian brothers that can't, I would

want them to like -minded, you should tend to

come.

You're a hard

ordinance that

we're commanded to follow up.

There are varied

sides I tend to

lean towards.

What would be wrong with just, after giving that warning that only baptized believers

and members of churches in good standing can partake, you leave it

up to the consciences of those in the room?

Because that's typically what we do anyway.

I've never seen the elements

of the Supper taken away from someone.

Well, right, we have the ordinance, and we have it purveyed that.

We fence the table the way I think we would someone

under church discipline, and they came and we saw that they were going to take

it.

We passed out the elements.

They did not get this.

That would be the only time that we would go more than that.

The verbal fencing that we have,

there's more of

a liberal position than

that, and there's open communion, a wide

range of how to fence the table, or do you fence the table?

Will we verbally be baptized?

You're a member of our church.

We invite you to partake of the Lord's Supper with us, that you examine your conscience, and if you're right with God and you have nothing

wrong with anything between you and God, nor anyone else

partaking of the Lord's Supper,

they're not a member of a church.

They haven't been a member of a church.

They don't want to join a church.

How do they represent God's people?

If they're denying it by

their actions in Christ,

it's a lie.

You're not following.

Communicating the danger that they're in,

examining themselves,

then definitely ill for taking this in a way that's not

the proper way.

But it's also a

joyful thing with

Christ.

Yes, and there are some who take the really strict view of closed communion, where if you're not a member of that

congregation, if you're a visitor, you cannot partake.

Right, right.

That's the

strict view of Baptist

Church.

And then all the way up to...

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know,.

The constant Roman Catholic claim is that the Church, going back

to the Last Supper, has always taught and practiced

transubstantiation.

And they will use as some extra biblical proof that nearly all of the Church

Fathers believed in the real presence of Christ in the

Supper.

However, I have since learned from Protestant apologists that there is a difference

between the real presence and actual transformation of the elements

into flesh and blood.

Can you explain the difference between that?

Yeah, I mean, Calvin was really good to explain really

present.

It's not just mere memorialism.

You know, if you go to a grave,

present, but they're not.

There's a memory that's there, and that's how they're present.

They're there in my mind, but not in the body, or they're there actually.

Christ has gone to heaven, and we're going to have communion with Him.

How is He present on earth?

Church Fathers,

He's physically there.

Well, for Him to be physically there, deny the

humanity of Jesus Christ.

Heresy.

The early Church established that it's a heresy to say that if Christ took on

divine attributes,

separate the natures of Christ.

There's a divine nature, there's a human nature, and He cannot be present in His human nature, His

physical body, because that is in heaven, and a physical body can only be in one place at one

time, and it destroys the fact that

Jesus is the resurrected man.

That's where the Catholic Church basically by saying that Christ's

physical body is everywhere the masses look.

It's not just humanity that's present.

God, man, and in His deity, He is actually, literally, you could say

literally there, not physically, but He's literally present with,

and He can, Christ, through the Word of God being properly

proclaimed, and in the ordinance being properly explained, He is there.

It's not just a memorial.

I'm not at the empty tombstone where I keep Him in

my mind.

No.

He's more than here in my mind.

He's actually in the church building.

He's actually on nature.

Well, we have to go to our final break right now, and I'm going to ask you a question before we go to that break,

a listener question, and you can answer it when we return.

John in Bangor, Maine wants to know, I have witnessed more and more Reformed churches

switching from grape juice as one of the elements in the supper to fermented wine.

They take it typically very seriously.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this, and we'll have you answer that question from Arnie in Perry County,

Pennsylvania, when we come back.

If anybody else wants to join us with a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is my Bible

of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

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Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers that strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord,

God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and always.

May 30th, from 10 a .m. to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, we're going to give you a

free seminar that you can take at home.

We're going to cover the topics of the sufficiency of Scripture, interpreting Scripture, discerning false teachers,

identifying to false teachers, and then a Q &A.

Get all the details at strivingforeternity .org, and there you can go to the

online events to register before May 30th.

And we'll see you there, online in your home.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net.

Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many

uncertainties.

When will it end?

Why do disasters like this happen?

How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host, Chris Arnzen,

and Pastor Joe Jacowicz, as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of

life's related issues.

Tune in at firstloveradio .org.

That's firstloveradio .org.

Each Friday at 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern.

That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org.

Friday's 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say

about pandemics and how we should respond.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past

to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Wes Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy.

And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more

and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois,.

His lawyers have the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you

call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me.

For Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And don't forget, Dan Buttafuoco is our guest tomorrow, representing his ministry, the

Historical Bible Society, and he's going to be discussing how we received our Bible in

the English language.

So make sure you mark your calendar or put a post -it note on the refrigerator or on your computer screen or

wherever else you will more than likely see it and join us for that discussion,

which I'm sure will be fascinating.

We are now back to the final segment of our interview today with Pastor Jeffrey D. Johnson,

founder of Free Grace Press and pastor of Grace Bible Church in Conway, Arkansas, home of the

Grace Bible Institute.

We are discussing counterfeit communion.

And before the break, I have noticed the same thing that my guest

has brought up.

Not my guest.

I'm sorry.

That our listener brought up that there are more and more Reformed churches that seem to

be gravitating and switching over to fermented wine in the supper.

And I personally don't have any problem with that at all.

But I, at the same time, believe that those of us who

are in churches that use unfermented wine or grape juice are not in any kind of violation of the scriptures

by doing so.

But what's your thoughts on that?

Yeah, well you love the NASB total life because the NASB is a

very translation of the Word of God.

Now, we may, I may personally put the NASB as the most literal translation in that sense,

the translation that we would want to use.

I wouldn't say that other translations are unfaithful.

Now, there are some translations you would want to stay away from, like the Message and many others,

sometimes even as an interpreter rather than an accurate translation.

When it comes to wine or grape

juice, I think it does matter that we seek to be as faithful as we can because the context,

the object does communicate something.

I wouldn't want to use a sort of water

or just a stain.

It's not just a...

There's more to it than that.

This

is what

we mean in the Bible Belt.

We don't take the fact that the wine is in the Reformed Baptist Church

and that would be my position

for the weakness of conscience of others and for that reason.

And doesn't the original.

Greek word.

Merely mean fruit of the vine which could be fermented or unfermented wine?

Right, right.

On that, I would say my

per minute,

I'm not for sure, we

have a lot of abuse of alcohol and there's a lot that

can easily be misused and often is misused.

And so, I think the Church is wise.

Churches are wise to be sensitive there.

We talk about the Earth's baptism to be in living water.

And if you don't have living water, you could use...

If you don't have that, then you can use whatever

water you have.

It could be warm water.

So listen, this is what's preferable but these things are also okay.

That's kind of my position.

This is good but

we need to remember it's not the

symbol but the meaning behind the symbol that makes it ethical.

That's why I'm perfectly...

By the way, I, having had a very serious sin problem

with alcohol, I abstain from alcohol completely.

Even though I believe my brethren have the liberty to moderately consume it.

But, I did partake in the Lord's Supper at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island

at least once.

And they use real fermented wine.

And I can say without hesitation that there was no

alarm bells going off in my head or some kind of temptation to drink

in a more... much larger quantity.

And obviously there is such a tiny amount when you're... typically anyway.

We have people in our church that it's a conscience issue and it would be a sin against their conscience.

I would not want someone to go, okay, I have to somehow mend my conscience before I take the Lord's Supper.

I think it's...

I think it's charitable of churches to be consider it a

conscience issue that this would be something that I can't take up.

I think that's a worthy consideration.

Now, I do have a thing about...

I don't know why churches don't always use unfermented bread.

Unleavened bread, I'm sorry.

Right, right.

Unfermented bread.

Unleavened bread.

Which is... if Jesus used it at the Supper, makes sense.

But anyway.

We have Will in Bright, Indiana,

who I believe is a first -time questioner.

How would one address one's local church or relative who has a very liberal open

communion position?

Liberal in the sense that it could be any believer, baptized or not, and can be self -administered

by laymen at home, etc.

Could a difference of viewpoints on the Lord's Supper warrant leaving a church?

Well, obviously, the last sentence of the last question, the issues could be a lot more serious even

than what he listed.

So, obviously, it would be a reason sometimes to leave a church.

But if you could answer the questions.

And actually, we're running out of time, so try to be as brief as possible.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, this is difficult to say

where do you find a true church.

You find a true church where the Word of God is faithfully preached and the ordinances are faithfully administered.

And I think we need to take the ordinances seriously.

I do think that there are...

If you was going to a church that did pray communion, I

wouldn't encourage you or my counsel would

be to speak to them

about these things and realize that a lot of times people

without much thought.

They've got good motives, good intentions, but they're not really thinking through what they're doing.

And very few people have really studied out the Lord's Supper and all of its meanings and all of its significance,

that study that you have with people when it comes to

these things.

Well, thank you so much, Will.

Thank you.

And please give me your full mailing address in Bright, Indiana, because you have

won a free New American Standard Bible by

virtue of being a first -time questioner.

So please send us that mailing address so that our

friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that Bible out to you at no

cost to you or to us.

And we also want to obviously thank the publishers of the NASB for providing these Bibles that we

always mail out or that CVBBS .com always mails out to

first -time questioners.

Well, it's been a joy having you back on the program.

We have to make this a more frequent experience here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jeff.

I appreciate you having me.

I want to make sure that our listeners have all your contact information.

The website for Grace Bible Church of Conway, Arkansas is

gbcconway .com gbcconway .com.

And of course, as we mentioned earlier, the Grace Bible Institute can be found at gracebible .institute

gracebible .institute.

I want to thank you again, Pastor Jeff, for being an excellent guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.