THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE: (12 of 12) Q&A

TWELVE 5 CHURCH

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I wanna remind you that tonight, we don't have all the answers, right?

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We don't have all the answers. We're working through a lot of things just like y 'all are. We're still trying to figure out and learn.

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There's gonna be certain texts, I guarantee you at some point tonight, someone's gonna come up with a text and we're like, I'll get back to you on that one.

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That's a great question and that's okay, right? That's what I wanted tonight to be as far as a

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Q &A is just a time for us to all talk. The curriculum up to this point has not lended itself to a lot of dialogue like we're used to on Wednesday nights usually.

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Wednesday nights are usually all dialogue, but this one is just a lot of information. So tonight,

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I hope you've come with your questions. Any of the softballs, just aim my way.

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Any of the hard ones, we'll just give to Pastor Jeremiah or we'll ask Pastor Keith over there.

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You got a mic over there, Pastor Keith? All right, all right. All right, well, guys,

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I'm looking forward to tonight. You can see we've got microphones set up here and I know that intimidates some, but we are videoing this.

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As a matter of fact, this whole playlist of the Doctrines of Grace has been very beneficial for a number of people that I've talked to, being able to just send that playlist and people to be able to watch through it and they even can download the curriculum and the homework there in the description below the videos.

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And so tonight, we're gonna be videoing, so you'll be famous, right?

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All 27 people that watch our videos will have seen your face if you ask a question, right?

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They're all here, that's true, they're all here tonight. We'll just all go home and watch the video and say, oh, there's me.

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And so let's keep it polite. Here's one of the things I wanna say is try and limit your question to one when you come up.

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So if you have another question, get back in line. And if there's nobody in line, then

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I guess we'll just call on you again. But try and keep it short and condensed as you can.

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But again, this is dialogue. Everybody on the same page? If you're on this side of the room, you can go to this mic.

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If you're on that side of the room, you can go to that mic, but let's keep it cordial and let's try not to stump the chump, okay?

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That's right, that's right, all right. Oh, we've already got a question here. Yes, Christy. I'm gonna go ahead and just turn my mic off.

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This is Christy. Okay, so this is, I mentioned in my testimony that I have a nagging question and this is my nagging question.

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Can y 'all hear me because I'm short? Okay, how about now?

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So I realize that I struggle, I don't struggle with the L or the

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I, I struggle with the you. And I realize that in Romans 9, or at least it's been pointed out that, sorry,

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God's election, God's choosing, man's responsibility, it's both and, not either or, right?

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So I'm trying to wrap my mind around how that works, okay?

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Man's responsible for choosing Christ, but he's not able to without God awakening him.

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So I'm seeing a big circle in my mind, okay?

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God's choosing this person and drawing this person, but yet man has to choose.

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So it's almost like herding cats in my mind. That's what it seems like to me is like God's choosing him, but is there a chance that man's not gonna respond?

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I don't see that as being possible, but I also don't understand how someone can choose

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Christ, be responsible for that, but yet God has not awakened him. So I don't know,

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I can't make it fit in my mind. Does that make any sense at all? Okay.

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Testing, oh, there we go. All right, great question. I've always said the you in the doctrines of grace for unconditional election, that's the hard one.

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But I mean, so I'm right there with you. And I believe we talked last Wednesday a lot about this too.

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This is where I start. Isaiah 55 says, God's ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts.

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Namely, that God is transcendent and eternal. Therefore, the choices that he makes are on a different category than us.

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How God chooses is not how I'm gonna make a choice when I counsel with Nathan. So that's just number one.

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And I think when we allow God to be creator in this transcendent category, and we allow the creation to, we think in these categories of how we relate to one another when we finally say, okay, however we relate to one another that is not how

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God chooses. We're in a really good place. Because his choices are eternal and are the ground of all being.

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Hebrews 11 says, he sustains the universe by the word of his power. Hebrews 11,

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I think it's verse three, and then also Hebrews 11, chapter one, verse three.

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My point is, God is in a category altogether different to himself than man.

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Now, he chose a world which everything is going to go one particular way.

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So what we can't do is saying God is not free to create a world to give himself glory.

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You know what I mean? And if we bite the bullet and say God can do that, and he is not morally wrong for doing so, this will help you in every doctrine in scripture, okay?

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You have to wrestle the fact that God created this world on purpose. Ephesians one says, to the praise of his glorious grace.

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Romans 11, 36 says, for of him and to him and through him are all things to whom be the glory forever, amen.

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So we start there with God's transcendence, his omnipotence and omniscience. You're in a really good place.

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And then we say, okay, how I choose and how I interact with my son, that's not one -to -one the same how

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God interacts with his creation. It's just altogether different. So that's number one. God makes eternal choices, we make temporal choices.

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They're just not the same. The way we make choices and are responsible, they're meaningful because God has made an eternal choice that grounds everything.

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Like it's all working a particular way to give him the most glory. Now, Romans nine, in light of the fall of man, right?

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There's a lump of clay which represents fallen man. Every choice that we make, we are responsible for, but it's always in opposition to God.

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Therefore, when God gives us what we want, Romans one, he's just giving us over to what we already want, which is corrupt, which is sin, suppression of the truth in unrighteousness, right?

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He can do that in real time. He can leave us in that corrupt state, but we are making a choice.

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It's just always in opposition to God. Therefore, when he extends mercy, then it reorients our will.

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He can transform our will by regeneration, and that's mercy. And so when we get into unconditional election,

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I look at it as this. Why did he choose me? Because I know I didn't deserve it. It's because Romans nine, he is fashioning a vessel, not because he foresaw something about me and learned and reacted, but God wanted to demonstrate mercy, grace, loving kindness out of a fallen lump of clay that didn't deserve it.

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And God is free to orchestrate all of creation that he can work out sanctification in the elect.

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So my point is unconditional election. Why me? Because God wanted to display mercy.

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He didn't have to. Does that help a little bit? I really want to press into the principle

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God is in a category that is just altogether different than the human to human relationship.

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What do you think? Yes. Does that answer your question?

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No. So the reason why in my mind it answers the question is we are responsible for the choices that we desire to make and do.

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That is not on the same plane as how God makes choices. And if we say those are different kinds of choices, there's no contradiction.

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Because when I make a choice and I want Jamie to do something and I have to convince her to do it or literally add force to push her to do it, well, that might be against her will.

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But if God makes an unconditional choice, he can work through my will in a category different than mine.

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So it's a both and in this sense. We are held accountable not for God's eternal decisions.

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He's not holding us accountable for that standard that he alone has. He holds us accountable for the choices that we make in real time.

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And I'm saying if we have the creator creation distinction, no contradiction. The contradiction comes in if we say, well, how can

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God make a choice the same way that I would make a choice with how I interact with someone else?

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I'm saying that kind of free will thinking actually does erode

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God's eternal choice. And so it's a deep question. That's why the answer is kind of deep too.

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But that's why Isaiah 55 says his ways and thoughts, the ways that he does things are transcendent.

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And so the sovereignty of God, category all of its own, our responsibility is in actual time according to our heart's desire.

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And that's what we will be held accountable to. So it hurts to say, but God's already chosen that this is gonna happen.

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And we'd say, yes, God as eternal creator can do that. Right? But we're held to the standard that we'll be judged according to what we actually choose to do.

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Is that a little bit closer? Yes. Good question. Are we changing up the game plan?

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Yeah, so I just grabbed the other microphone because we can't get that one working. So if you have a question, you can come over here to where the corded mic is.

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We shouldn't have a problem there. No. No. That one is

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Justin's mic. Okay. Hello? Hello? Is that one not working either?

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Oh, oh, oh, there we are. Is this good? Hey Keith, is

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Justin's mic turned up? Okay, there we go. Okay, mine is not nearly as deep as hers.

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Mine are third grade questions, which you will just love because they won't. Those are my kind of questions. Yeah. We may have talked about this, but I don't remember, it's been a while.

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So I wanna ask again. So God created all things, beginning of time, he created time. He says, let there be light.

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What language was he speaking? There was no Hebrew, there was no nation. What was he speaking? You said third grade question.

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That is third, no one thinks about that, but I was just like, what is, what in the, what? God language.

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I really, maybe Latin, I don't know. I don't know.

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So language came from somewhere, right? Adam spoke,

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Eve spoke, like God created language at some level, or all levels.

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God created the language, but specifically, he must have designed a language that has probably been dumbed down to this point.

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I'm sure it's lost at this point for that matter, but it was obviously probably far more complex than any language that we have.

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And so whatever that is, that originated from him. But also, the language of him speaking into it,

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God is spirit. So what does that even mean? Is that audible language, or is it anthropomorphic language?

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So you wanna speak to that? King James English, that was it. I was gonna say, obviously,

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I don't know what language it is, but it seems like there was a universal language in the early part of Genesis, and then

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Babel happened, right? The Tower of Babel. And so that's when you have the diversity of languages.

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So I have a theory. Of all the diversity of languages, they all have their root back to that original language, but it was diversified.

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And then in Pentecost, we kinda see that coming back together a little bit, but I don't know. Okay, fair enough.

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Good question. It's the tongues of angels. I just wanted to ask about 2

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Peter 2 .1. I don't know if we wanna read it, but 2 Peter 2 .1

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is referencing Jude 4 or vice versa, and I was wondering if Jude 4 is speaking of the master as Christ and purchasing, to me, the

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Greek would be agorazo. That's probably not how you say that, but I was just wondering how that kind of reconciles with the false teacher denying the master that bought him, and just, you know, that sort of thing.

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I think that's a great point. There's so many good commentaries that try to make heads or tails of this passage, and so once again, he's saying, false teachers that are among you will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them.

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And the question is, well, if they're bought by the blood of Christ, what does that do to the doctrine of limited atonement, because didn't

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Jesus just purchase and buy the elect? So Peter, I believe he's borrowing

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Exodus language, meaning like when you go back to the time of the

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Exodus, for someone to be a slave, they are the master, and it's unthinkable to go against the master that purchased you and is

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Lord over you, and that is the very thing that I think he's trying to convey, that false teachers, they are shaking their fist at the

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Lord over all. I don't think this is as doctrinally precise, meaning that his blood atonement was on their behalf, but he is the sovereign

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Lord over all, similar using, you know, like I said, less theologically precise language, but figurative language saying similar to a

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Lord over a house, or a master over a slave, and it's unthinkable for them to recognize who the

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Lord is and actually go against the very things that they are prescribing. So I think this is more figurative language rather than the doctrinal precision language that we read like in Gospel of John, or Romans chapter eight, where we see that no one can bring a charge against God's elect.

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For God's elect, Christ not only died for them, but even more than that, he was raised to life and he continues to intercede on their behalf.

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So I think this is more figurative language borrowing from Exodus language about a sovereign

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Lord over a bond slave. What about 1

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Peter 18, when he's kinda calling back saying, but with the precious blood as of a lamb, unblemished spotless.

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1 Peter 18? Sorry, 1 Peter 1 .18, sorry. And so he's making that comparison in being purchased not by corruptible things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of the lamb, unblemished and spotless.

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That's kinda like where I get confused with that, because I feel like it's referencing that specifically, like 2

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Peter would be calling back to 1 Peter and that sort of thing. Does that make sense at all? I don't know if I'm making it up.

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I don't know if that makes any sense, but. Yeah, to me, this goes back to, there's only one Lord who ransoms his people.

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So Paul speaks a lot of this in 1 Timothy chapter two, and he ransoms all people, but in what context, is always the question.

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Titus chapter two talks about, he is the only savior of the world. And so when we get into theological precise language, there is a particularity, no matter which side of the aisle people fall under.

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And I'll just say, when we press the ransom language, it is, it has to be for a particular group of people, especially when you start harmonizing this with the totality of scripture.

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Going back to 2 Peter chapter two, it's tethered to false teachers. And I would just say,

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I think this is, maybe a different context, because the very next verse talks about how Jesus is the lamb slain, essentially before the foundation of the world.

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So that very next verse, he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

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So this is kind of in that church context. And so he's proclaiming the blood of Christ, the ransom for you, but there are gonna be people that fundamentally deny him.

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And so I think this is almost very pastoral, because as we get into 1 Peter chapter five, he is one of the under shepherds.

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So he is speaking to a church context, and Peter doesn't know the heart of man. And so I think when we're, it's like here, if I'm saying

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Jesus died for you, well on one hand I'm talking to the church of 12 five. But I'm also speaking more fundamentally to those that will repent and put their faith to Jesus Christ.

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Does that help a little bit? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, for sure. Thank you. Anybody else?

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The Bible talks a lot about prophetic abilities and miracles and all that.

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Do you think that those are still present today, like people still have like those abilities today?

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All right, well, I know this doesn't align with the doctrines of grace particularly, but us that hold the doctrines of grace, typically reformed, would consider ourselves what's known as cessationist.

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And so here's what we think. We believe that those signs, wonders, amazing things

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God still can do. And quite possibly, I think he does. So for example, healing.

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I've experienced from those close to me, miraculous healing that doctors couldn't explain.

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That is a miracle. Here's the difference. We believe that during the apostolic age, when the apostles were alive, the

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New Testament did not exist yet. That what we call the canon wasn't closed.

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It was like we have everything we need for life and godliness right now because we have the scriptures in totality.

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They did not. And so there was a confirmation needed just like Jesus. Jesus comes to earth and he does miracles confirming he is

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God and he is the Messiah. Well, now his apostles who are the foundation of the church, they now at the beginning stages, they have these supernatural abilities of healing.

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They have these special, there's prophets during that time. They're bringing a word from God to the church who doesn't yet have the totality of scripture.

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And so what you notice though is near the end, like the last few number of books in the

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New Testament, you don't see any record of any of those miracles or any of those things going on.

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Even near the end of Paul's life, it seems like Paul didn't have the gift of healing anymore. Otherwise he would have healed

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Timothy, right? From his stomach ailment. He just tells him, hey, drink some wine for your stomach, by the way.

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My point is what we would say as cessationist is God still does miraculous things.

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He doesn't do it through the same means and for the same purpose that he did during the apostolic time.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. And so that would tie into what we're talking about, the doctrines of grace,

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God's sovereign hand. He has purpose in it, right? And then for us typically who hold the reformed theology, which the doctrines of grace are, they're just simply a threshold into the reformed theology is typically we would be in that position.

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Cessationist versus continuationist. Okay. The signed gifts continued.

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Okay. So these questions are coming from the homework.

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So it wasn't in the binder, but it was a part of the homework.

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So it would be like daughters will prophesy and all that. So I was just wondering, does that mean us in the future as well or did that just mean the daughters then?

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Yeah, I think that's the quotation from Acts chapter two. That's the fulfillment of Joel and kind of gets into the whole ongoing debate between cessationist and continuationist.

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And I don't think this is one of those things to be dogmatic. Now I see kind of the fulfillment of the early church in Acts and God's judgment against the nation of Israel was actually prophesied back in Isaiah chapter 28.

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First Corinthians chapter 14 says, this is gonna be assigned to the unbelieving Jews when an unknown people speak a foreign tongue.

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So it's a sign of judgment that culminates with the destruction of the temple. And so that prophecy are these prophetic sign gifts throughout the early church.

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This is the safe place to be. We have all we need in godliness revealed in God's word.

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And so when someone comes along that I look up to as a brother or sister in the faith and they are wanting to give me a prophetic word, show me right here, right?

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And what I learn is we find the principle. Oh yeah, that lines up. Well, it turns out I didn't need an extra prophetic word if we can find it in scripture.

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To me, that's the safest place to be. And we can continue to be charitable towards one another.

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I don't like that being like the benchmark of us being able to be in fellowship.

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It's like, hey, let's continue to sharpen one another in these types of things. Some of it's just language too.

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Like some people would say, well, I have a prophecy for you. You know, I have a word for you.

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And in reality, it's like, well, sounds to me like the Holy Spirit within you prompted you to tell me a truth from his word.

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Praise God for that. I'm glad he did. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Thank you. Thank you. Before we take another question,

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I wanted to address a question that was actually sent in pre tonight by our very own

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Wesley. All right, we get to Hebrew six, four through eight. Let me read it.

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Four, it is impossible. In the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the

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Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance since they are crucified once again, since they are crucifying once again, the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

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For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it and produces a crop itself, useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.

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But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed and its end is to be burned.

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Pastor Jeremiah, you wanna walk us through that? Sure. So a lot of the dispute is in verses four through six.

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And the question is, is this a passage that means a person can lose their salvation?

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It's kind of how it's framed. And a lot of times I wanna take one step back and say, okay, what is the significant context overall in the book of Hebrews?

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Well, the writer of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews that have been under the old covenant and have now heard the gospel of Jesus Christ that's in the new covenant.

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And so now they're in an interesting spot because the writer of Hebrews, this is a very much apologetic book saying, don't neglect the new covenant.

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Everything in the old covenant could never save you is always pointing you to this. And so even back in verse one, the old covenant had the elemental doctrines of Christ, types, shadows, and promise of the new covenant to come by a perfect mediator.

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So that's just number one, is you have a Jewish audience that's being tempted after hearing the gospel to revert back to the type and shadows.

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And here's the key, that never saved, okay? So verse four, for it is impossible.

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I just wanna pause, I had this underlined in my Bible. Whatever is about to say next, this is important. It's impossible. In the case of those who have been enlightened, that's a keyword, enlightened, who have tasted, taste is another keyword of the heavenly gift, and have shared, another keyword, in the

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Holy Spirit. I would argue these words are not conveying justification, adoption, or someone who is born again.

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But it are those Hebrews that have partook in some way of the new covenant.

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What would that be like? Well, to be in a early church context, to hear the truths of the gospel, and they're partaking in a sense, right?

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But like I said, I don't think this entails regeneration. Here's why I think about it contextually. What does it mean to taste of the heavenly gift?

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Well, in the book of Hebrews, I think it's Hebrews chapter five, Jesus tasted death for all men.

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He actually died, but he didn't stay dead, right? And so this seems to be saying someone that's tasted, that they've heard the gospel, and it doesn't mean that they've fully committed in their heart to these truths.

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They're actually being tempted to be led astray back to the old covenant. So I don't think this is talking about a legitimate child of God who has been justified, okay?

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So with that understanding, we go on. For someone that has tasted of the powers of the age to come, they've tasted, they've heard of the gospel, they understand it to the brim, right?

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The Jew that understands that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, and let's say they reject it.

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Let's say they understand the argument that the writer of Hebrews is saying, and then they conclude, nope, he should have died on the cross, and he needed to stay dead.

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For that person, verse six, they have fallen away from the only gospel of grace,

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I'm interpreting. And remember, it's impossible. If they have fallen away, if they have tasted, they have such a knowledge of the gospel, only to reject it, it would be impossible, because they have fallen away, to restore them again to a kind of repentant sense, they are crucifying once again the son of God to their own harm and holding him to contempt.

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I would argue, number one, if this is talking about a person can lose their salvation, well, it's impossible for them to gain it back.

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That's why I'd like to remind them, and no advocate of someone losing their salvation wants to go that route. Rather, this is talking about the apostate, someone that claimed to be a child of God under the old covenant.

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They're met with the knowledge of the true gospel, only to reject it. And so,

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I think there's a modern day parallel that he read verses seven and eight, which are almost like the parable of the sower, the four soils.

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There are people that believe for a time, they have a knowledge only to reject it.

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And so, there is a hotter hell, if you will, for those that have a great knowledge of the gospel and the things of God and his word and have congregated with the people of God only to walk away from the faith.

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Does that kind of make sense? So, that was a lot, maybe. Just trying to give it my best stem.

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That was good. That is another argument.

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So, there's another argument that says that this is an impossible hypothetical. And a reductio ad absurdum saying, if these are regenerate people, this, they would actually never walk away from the faith.

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That's a legitimate view. I'm unconvinced because of how the word tasted is used. Because I've actually heard people say, well, since Jesus actually died, tasted death, this means that someone was actually saved and fell away.

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And I'm like, well, you missed the point that he tasted death because he didn't stay dead. He actually resurrected. So, for them to taste of the powers of the age to come, taste of the gospel, doesn't mean that their heart was actually regenerated.

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But there are other views to this passage that seek to harmonize it with the rest of scripture. Good. Got any more questions?

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Marcus. Oh. Well, since my boy, he's over there doing the cameras for us, he wanted me to ask the question.

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Why do most pastors and churches only do expository preaching through certain books of the

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Bible rather than all the books? And why is Revelation the one most avoided? And why is

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Revelation the most confusing? And why did

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God make Revelation more complicated than other books? There you go.

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Okay. Caleb, thank you. All right. So, I think there was a couple of questions there, see if I can keep it right.

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Why do some pastors preach exegetically, like through a book of the Bible, but skip some? In particular, you were asking skip

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Revelation. So, I would say, yes, it is a very difficult book, but I do think that it comes with a blessing.

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One day we will preach through it. It greatly depends on your eschatology as to where you land in this room.

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There are probably, there's definitely three eschatological views represented, and then variation within all of them.

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And that's okay. But you have to preach according to what the leadership of the church believes accordingly.

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But there is blessing. I mean, even the book of Revelation tells that those that, hey, read this book, that study this book, they'll be blessed.

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But to answer the question of why do pastors avoid some books, just sometimes it's self -preservation.

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I see some pastors, like we just went through Ephesians recently. Ephesians, the first three chapters are all doctrine, and the last three chapters are all application.

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And I think I shared, I saw a church not too far from here that was like, hey, we're gonna preach through Ephesians.

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And they started in chapter four because they didn't wanna have to go through all of the doctrine part.

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They just wanted all the application that kinda comes with it. So, yeah, pastors, for different reasons, they'll skip different books.

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We do not plan on skipping Revelation. We're just waiting for a good time for that. It is a very difficult book to understand, and it's complex, and it's tied to a lot of Old Testament passages.

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There's a lot of back and forth. There's a lot of prophecy going on. It's like, when is this prophecy?

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Is this in the past? Is this already fulfilled? Is this in the future? What does this look like? It can get difficult, and churches will split over that very thing.

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And so that's another reason pastors sometimes have to use wisdom as to when they'll teach a particular thing to a particular people based on where that people are.

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Does that answer your question? Good question. You wanna speak to that? Hello.

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So we've talked about this before, and it's judicial hardening. So I know the

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Bible talks about God hardening the heart of Pharaoh and different ones in Scripture.

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But the question is, if we're already totally depraved or totally incapable of coming to God, why would judicial hardening need to happen?

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Why would it need to take place? And I think, well, from what

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I've looked at just over the past year, year and a half, there really isn't any good material online about answering that question, and that's unfortunate.

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And so maybe you should. You want me to make a video? I do. I want you to make a video and resource that out.

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But that's my question. And why would judicial hardening be a thing if total inability is also a thing?

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Great question. The way I approach this is total depravity also encompasses utter depravity.

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And making the distinction between just because someone is not able to come to Christ, they are not as sinful as they could be.

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And so I think judicial hardening falls within a further removing the people of Israel from God in their depravity.

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And that's a judicial hardening on a group of people that were so close to in the covenants of God, they had the oracles of God, and yet they twisted the words of God and they missed

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Christ altogether. And so on one hand, that is a part of God's ordination is to show us tangible examples of the people of Israel.

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First Corinthians chapter 10, it would say examples to not behave like them. And so they are being judicially judged.

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That's a separate issue than being born depraved in our sin. And so we're just talking about two different things.

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I would argue too, because another way this gets brought out is so God is making a blind people further blind.

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And I would say absolutely, because there's depth to depravity. When you start looking at Israel, they killed the son of glory.

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That is about the worst thing that we could ever conceive of, the worst sin. They killed the son of glory.

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That wouldn't have happened if they weren't being judicially hardened. Pharaoh in a similar way, God was using him providentially, right?

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But he was also in real time restraining Pharaoh from making decisions to save his own hide.

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You know what I mean? And so God intervened and there are depths to depravity. So that's where judicial hardening comes in.

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And I'll make a video one of these days on it. So for me, I struggle with that very question because obviously

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God does not lead anyone to sin, right? God's not the author of sin. God does not. So what does that look like?

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Is that language leading us to an understanding of God's hand of restraint, allowing further hardening?

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And so for me, I feel like that fits the bill a little bit better. Just like Pastor Jeremiah just brought up, like we're utterly depraved, but no one acts on the depth of depravity that the human heart is capable of because of the wonderful restraining hand of God, even upon the lost, right?

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If God, like I think we even said it in the class, if God were to remove his hand of restraint off of society, everyone would literally just kill each other.

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Like everything would go into mass chaos and the human heart would just crush and destroy everything good.

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Almost instantaneously. And so when we see Pharaoh, we even see characters throughout history in our past were just did great evil.

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They had the same heart that we have, right? Before we're regenerate, of course, a heart of stone, but God's hand of restraint.

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And so with Pharaoh, with the children of Israel, there's a judicial hardening in the sense that God sovereignly removes his hand of restraint upon that people so that they in their own free will, in their own free, like a moral volition, they carry out the wicked deed.

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And God is not the author of it. God has ordained it and they walk in it freely without his restraining hand, stopping them from doing, from stopping the children of Israel from crucifying the

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Messiah, stop Pharaoh from doing wicked deeds. They just did it on their own.

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And so for me, that's been the best way for me to make peace with understanding that at some level, but there's still problems with even that position, so.

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Okay. Is Harry Potter, I'm just kidding.

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Yeah. I've been thinking about preservation of the saints or perseverance of the saints in light of recent things, you know, with certain pastors and stuff that goes on.

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When you think of that perseverance or preservation, I would like to know your preferred word there because obviously people are not regenerated at birth.

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There are deathbed regenerations, I believe. So how do you tie preservation or perseverance when someone has seemed to live the

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Christian life for 60 years? I know there's people falling to sin, not saying that they're not, there's no salvation there, but make sense of preservation, perseverance.

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Is that lifespan? You know, if that makes sense.

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I couldn't get it on. I mean, this gets back to the passages that you were just dealing with at the beginning of the night.

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We can see, particularly we see like a pastor seems to produce fruit and then does something terrible.

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Well, that doesn't mean he's lost his salvation, right? But then we also have situations where people just completely abandon the faith.

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And in those cases, that's that very character that he was talking about earlier, that it seemed as though they had tasted and seen that the

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Lord was good. It seemed as though they had, it's the parable of the sower, right?

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So that seed landed on rocky soil and sprouted up. We don't know how long that sprouted up.

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We don't know how long that plant began to grow up. It seemed like, oh, that's gonna produce fruit or maybe even we thought it did produce fruit, but it had no root, it was on bad soil.

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And the thorns, thistles, the weather, the sun beat down on it and eventually it just did not persevere because it had no root.

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So to your question, I think more specifically, what do we do, make sure

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I'm answering it right. What do we do with people that seem to persevere or am

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I understanding it right? So I guess my question is more on perseverance or preservation.

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It seems to be more of preservation than perseverance. So perseverance of the saints is the natural outcome of preservation of the saints.

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It is the Holy Spirit that is preserving us, like my favorite passage of Philippians, right?

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He who began a good work and you will see it to completion the day of Christ Jesus, right? It's the Holy Spirit persevering or preservinging us, but we will carry out in perseverance.

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You wanna speak to that? Oh yeah, good question. I want a hundred percent like the term, the preservation of the saints because a little bit with perseverance and I have beef with all five doctrines of how they're worded of Calvinism because perseverance seems to be me and my own efforts.

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Right now, properly understood, we know that that's not what it's meaning, but first glance, it's not me and my own efforts. I am the one persevering, right?

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I'm being preserved by the Holy Spirit in spite of myself. So I want a hundred percent like the preservation of the saints because I'm being preserved in light of my own sinfulness, right?

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You mentioned a couple other things. So I've always tried to point out,

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I cannot have assurance of someone else's salvation. Now I can have assurance of my salvation because I can see my own heart.

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God knows my own heart. Now I can have high confidence of another saint that I've seen the testimony of their life.

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I just can't have the same level of certainty of their salvation for myself.

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If I was around when King David sinned mightily, I'd have been like, I don't see it, right? But praise God, he sees the heart and we see the evidences of that heart.

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So I take a lot of peace and solace in the fact that I am not the one to separate the wheat from the tares.

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You know what I mean? Because if we try to make an infallible judgment on someone's heart, we might be condemning an immature believer.

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Now there's a reality that they went out from us because they were not actually of us, right?

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So that's why the warning passages in scripture to the church are so important because the elect will persevere.

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We will look at the passage for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

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How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one that spurns the blood of the covenant?

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Well, the elect look at those passages and say, I want nothing to do with that. And so God uses these warning passages to sanctify the church body.

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And eventually the tares say, yeah, whatever, and apostatize and they will have a harder judgment, if you will.

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So does that make sense? We can't have the same level of assurance for someone else's salvation for our own.

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What he said. Okay, maybe this is softball, we'll see.

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So we've gone through all the doctrines of grace. For me, there's a few. Why did you look at me when you said that? All right,

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I'll direct my doctrine. For me, I don't know how much it moved the needle for me.

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It was good to restudy those areas. For me,

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I'm with you on the you. Philosophically, that's the hardest one. Although biblically, it's not that hard because I think scripture really, really supports it.

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For me, L, the scripture is the part that I have the hard time with because I feel like there's more verses that we have to explain to support one side or the other.

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And there are very well -meaning people, as you mentioned throughout this, that have believed very strongly on one side or the other.

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What would you say to someone who says, okay, I see this side, I see this side. Maybe I lean this way, and I feel like I lean more toward doctrines of grace.

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But where we don't understand or where we can't choose a side on this, that maybe we just don't have enough information to be able to reconcile both points of view that we're seeing in scripture.

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That is excellent. And so my counsel would be keep pursuing holiness.

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Keep digging. Look to the word. Keep being filled, be being dominated by the spirit.

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Carry out the one and others with your brothers and sisters, whichever side of the aisle they fall on, and seek to live a holy life.

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In time, the Holy Spirit may, may give you heavy conviction one way or the other.

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In the meantime, it's okay if you're not there at the moment and the

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Holy Spirit may not have you there in that particular moment for that particular time because he's using you in a specific way.

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It's okay. It's okay as long as you are seeking to honor Christ. You are not being divisive with brothers and sisters over a matter like that.

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And you're seeking to be true to God's word. Praise God.

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Give me a church full of people who struggle with limited atonement but love Jesus fiercely and love people over a bunch of heady people that are hardcore, all five points, if there was a sixth,

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I'd have a sixth, that don't love Jesus and don't love his bride and don't love people. Theological triage, that's right.

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I just wanted to add briefly, the safe space is always being at the foot of the cross, seeing the love of Christ.

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And as soon as you get into theological categories and you look at, and you can't really see the cross and you can't really see the love of God, I would say abandon those categories and go right back to the foot of the cross.

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That's the sweet spot. Everything you were. And an amen. Does that answer your question?

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Good. Go ahead. I just wanted to ask about Romans 3 .27.

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And I feel like Paul here is, well, my question is, is faith a work?

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Because, for example, on page 53, faith and regeneration, it's the most common view today that it is that faith causes regeneration.

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But to me, I feel like that presupposes that faith is a work to say that if I believe, then

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I am earning salvation in some way. That would make faith a work. But I feel like Romans 3 .27

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would distinguish faith from work. So saying you believe is in no way of merit to yourself.

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So would you agree with that or would you see faith as a work? You said a lot of good things.

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I've studied heavily Romans 3 .27. When you said it, I was like, oh, I'm excited to interact with this.

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I do wanna back up and say faith is a work of God. And we experience faith as a gift.

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Those are the proper categories. And if we get outside of that, there's a lot of problems. And I would push back on the view that says since God spoke the world, ex nihilo, from nothing, and since we are made in his image, we too can bring our faith from nothing, that seems to make faith into a work that we do.

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And I'm saying that's a dangerous place to be in. You notice, you have to bring man up on God's level to start thinking in those categories.

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Ephesians 2 .8 says faith is a gift, gracious gift from above. Philippians 1 .29, it's been granted to us not only to suffer for the name of Christ, but also to believe in him.

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So I would say faith is not a work that we can conjure up and we do, right? Now I would say,

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John 6, faith is a work of God that he graciously grants by the

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Holy Spirit, taking out the heart of stone, giving us a heart of flesh. That's all a work of God, right? Now, Romans 3 .27,

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here's where you're onto something. Faith is being contrasted with works. So I would say they are not supposed to be overlapped in something that we could do.

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Well, that's perfect because faith is a gift. Faith is not something that we can do. Faith is only a work when we understand that we need

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God and God alone to work into our heart regeneration, that we might be convicted of sin and see our need of a savior.

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Does that help a little bit? And I would like to add this too. This is why we can still have fellowship with brothers and sisters who don't believe regeneration precedes faith, because we have camaraderie with brothers who would say faith is not a work in that same definition.

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Where we would split hairs is for someone to define faith as a work that they are doing.

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Now, here's where the dilemma comes in is there can sometimes be a gracious inconsistency in someone not fully understanding that and thinking that their act of showing faith, the expression of faith, was something that they themselves came up with.

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And so they're not understanding faith as a work, but they're practically thinking of faith as some type of work that they're doing.

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It's just, it's an immaturity. And so we wouldn't try and anathematize someone at that level.

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But I would say for me, anyone that would affirm faith as a work and that it precedes regeneration in that way,

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I would anathematize because now it's on works. And just one more final thought.

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One of the best ways to view the relationship between faith and works, faith is inward of the heart and is spiritual.

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Therefore, you can't put faith in a jar and see what color it is and how much is there. That's just not what we can do.

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Faith is everything external that can be quantified, looked upon, the things that we do.

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This comes from the Greek word ergon, a gods of mine. And this is, when he says faith expressed, we can only express faith with our works.

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And so backing up just one chapter, the last two verses of Romans chapter two, to me, faith inward, works outward.

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Paul gives us these categories. For there is no one who is a Jew who is merely one outwardly.

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Think of all the works of the law that they were prescribed to carry out and they kept falling short. Nor is circumcision outward and physical.

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Those are the categories of the works that the Jews were bound to. But the true

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Jew, the one who is inwardly, circumcision is a matter of the heart and by the spirit.

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He's talking about a heart of faith. And I think that's the sweet spot. Faith and works are related, but they are distinct.

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Faith is inward and a true living faith will work itself out in tangible works that we can look at.

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So just a quick follow up if I can. So would you say that, I agree with that completely, but would you say that the terms synergism and monergism both kind of presuppose that faith is at work?

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In this way, monergism really, I think, understands the fact that God is working all things together after the counsel of his will.

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Monergistically, God is sustaining the universe by the word of his power. God works categorically different than how man works.

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Mono, salvation is of the Lord. He is accomplishing that, right? So there is a working. Mono is there's the one working.

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And a lot of times in reformed circles, we rightly understand regeneration, mono is a work of God.

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That doesn't negate our experience. Philippians 2, 13 or 12 says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

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So we have an experience where we feel like I made a decision, I was convicted of sin, I put my faith in Christ.

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And yes, you had that experience. But then we understand the deeper categories. Oh God, mono was the one working in me and through me according to his desire.

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And so this is where I think it's helpful for a believer's sanctification of looking at our sanctification and our experiences.

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Oh, well, I am at work and the Holy Spirit is at work in me. But God is still monergistically working out all things together at the council of his will.

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That's good. Well, guys, unfortunately, we're out of time. We're six minutes over.

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Adam had a question. Does everybody wanna keep going? Because we have children's workers that have little ones.

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One, okay, one more question. We have to make it quick. Okay, I have announcement after him.

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So announcement, okay, go ahead. This question is kind of with the preservation of the saints. Can you tie it with intercession because we're all

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Trinitarians and we say that the Holy Spirit keeps you. But in John 17, we say that the father keeps and also the son keeps.

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So can you tie intercession with maybe election to help others out? I would say what's so important about preservation of the saints is this is a

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Trinitarian work. And I like to fall back on the Ephesians 1 principle. The father predestines, the son redeems and the

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Holy Spirit regenerates and seals us unto the day of redemption. Romans 8 talks about the two paracletes, the two helpers, right?

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Paraclete just meaning helper, advocate. And it specifically talks about the Holy Spirit in verse 26 and Jesus's ongoing intercessor role because he's seated right now at the right hand of the father, but he can empathize with us.

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Our prayers are going directly to the throne. And so when we and you have actually talked a lot about this, the

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Holy Spirit helps us in our weaknesses for if we do not know how we ought to pray as we ought, the

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Spirit himself intercedes with groanings too deep for utterance.

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Like we just, I don't think we understand just how deep that goes. The Holy Spirit, the same chapter, the

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Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit Abba Father that we are adopted sons of the

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Most High, right? And then this goes right into the security of the believer, the golden chain of redemption and who can bring a charge against God's elect.

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If the son has set you free, you are free indeed. There's no reversal. God's not gonna be a liar and said, yeah, I gave you a verdict that you were justified, but I changed my mind based on what you did.

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Now that sin debt already accounted for, right? You were born again. You can't somehow be unborn again in all of that.

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Who can bring a charge against God's elect? Nobody, nothing in all of creation. And last I checked, we are a part of that creation, right?

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And so that goes into Jesus. We talked about this passage earlier. Jesus not only died for us, who's the context for?

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The elect, those that are in Christ Jesus and have no more condemnation on our account. The context is about the elect.

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Jesus Christ is the one who died. That is the limited atonement. He died for us, settled it perfectly.

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He's the perfect intercessor that cannot fail to save to the uttermost. And more than that, he was resurrected on our behalf and he continues to intercede on behalf of us.

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Well, who's the us in Romans eight? But all Christians of all, or all believers of all time. They cover it.

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All right, Pastor Jeremiah, could you close us in prayer? Love to. Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this time to be able to open up your word.

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And God, please guard us from pharisaism and being able to talk about philosophical categories and all the things,

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God. We wanna honor the fact that God, you tell us to seek after wise counsel and sound doctrine and theological precision, but God, please give us a heart of grace.

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Please help us to live out these truths through our fingertips, through the one another's of love. And so God, just please help us to be charitable in these conversations, not haughty looking down upon one another that disagree.

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But God, please give us the heart of Christ. God, please fill us with your spirit that we would have that bond of peace and that we would live day by day fulfilling the one another's of scripture, spurring one another onto love and good works,