April 11, 2006

and for that day so it hasn't gotten that warm yet we're gonna get in the 90s tomorrow they're talking 97 by Thursday so if you'd like to pray about something you can pray that the fan motor for our air conditioning unit arrives before then.

We were supposed to hear something yesterday and we didn't and still haven't heard anything today and I'm not really certain about how a dividing line is going to work if it's 97 degrees outside on Thursday afternoon

I'm not sure that our equipment would appreciate functioning in that type of temperature so we will see if the fan motor arrives then we'll be able to do a dividing line if it doesn't arrive

I'm not really certain that that would be a a good idea so anyway before we get back to the

Dr. Davis sermon and I need to press on with that because the fact that that debate is coming up next

Thursday actually as I think about it now the 20, actually it's

Friday, next Friday evening I will be debating Mr. Wright, W -R -I -G -H -T, former assistant attorney general state of Illinois actually who is an assistant pastor at Dr.

Davis' church on the subject of Calvinism there in Sedalia, Missouri and so I've wanted to be doing this series so that Mr.

Wright can hear a response to the misrepresentations of reform theology so that we are able to focus upon the important issues in our debate that is coming up and hopefully it will be a very biblically based debate but before I did that I wanted to mention something last, was it last time we got together?

I'm not sure, I think it was last time we got together or maybe the time after that,

I don't know, before that, I don't remember, anyway when I went over the misrepresentations that were found in Dr.

Davis' sermon as he was following Dave Hunt one of the misrepresentations was in reference to Charles Haddon Spurgeon the subject of regeneration the current blog article actually posted last evening on my blog has a link to a sermon by Spurgeon on regeneration faith it's called man's inability as I recall it was number number 182

I believe yes sermon 182 March 7, 1858 music hall

Royal Surrey Gardens and there's a link there you can read the whole thing I would recommend the entirety of it to you but I want to read you a particular portion of it it's a portion on my blog and you may have already read it but there are other folks who listen to these archives way way down the road

I have one friend at church who's listened to all of the dividing lines all of our mp3s it's so frightening that someone would actually want to listen to all that stuff but anyway so they may not have access to this blog article any longer when they're listening to this in the archives so let me read it to you because I think it makes an exceptionally important point coming to Christ is a very common phrase in Holy Scripture it is used to express those acts of the soul wherein leaving at once our self -righteousness and our sins we fly into the

Lord Jesus Christ and receive his righteousness to be our covering in his blood to be our atonement coming to Christ then embraces in it repentance self -negation and faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ and it sums up with in itself all those things which are the necessary attendance of these great states of heart such as the belief of the truth earnestness of prayer to God the submission of the soul to the precepts of God's gospel and all those things which accompany the dawn of salvation in the soul coming to Christ is just the one essential thing for a sinner's salvation he that cometh not to Christ do what he may or think what me he may is yet in the gall of bitterness and the bonds of iniquity coming to Christ is the very first effect of regeneration no sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers it's lost a state is horrified there at looks out for a refuge and believing

Christ to be a suitable one flies to him and reposes in him where there is not this coming to Christ it is certain that there is as yet no quickening where there is no quickening the soul is dead and trespasses and sins and being dead it cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven now two things first of all the misrepresentation of Spurgeon by hunt as if Spurgeon that denied what he just said here and that is coming to Christ is the very first effect of regeneration no sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers it's lost a state is horrified there at looks out for a refuge and believing

Christ to be a suitable one flies to him and reposes in him now that's what

I've always taught that's what I believe the Bible teaches that's what Spurgeon taught and it is a misrepresentation of Spurgeon to cite a a sermon that he gave on a different subject a different issue and then as a result say that he actually denied this but there are others who take great joy in attacking me on this various sundry this this issue as well and yet are great promoters of Spurgeon it is odd that they would disagree with him on this very very important issue so I would recommend that particular sermon to your reading

I think you would find it to be very very useful so we go back to the dr. Davis sermon and before I do that now we think in here maybe rich we may need to rethink where we put

Warren's office and move that wall back and start putting in you know maybe some tears of chairs and bleachers bleachers for the audience yeah because we have an audience today and in fact those in channel will be happy to know that Stoker and captain are here as is buzz and so those of you who are channel rats will will recognize that with a omen and myself five of the channel rats are here in the studio today oh that's not a good thank you very much right up here on that you're trying to do like audience effects or something like that something like that but it those terms have to confuse the daylights out of our non -channel non -channel rats and on channel rats yeah well yeah actually you know we you may have seen that email that you forwarded to me from Japan and a person there in Japan who listens at 3 a .m.

in the morning and I wrote back and said you do know we have archives but I saw someone

I saw someone come in from Japan last night and they never responded to me so I'm not sure if there is a problem there but I you know we may have folks actually going into channel you know three o 'clock well you know we are webcasting around the world around the world yes well that if you're webcasting at all you're webcasting around the world what is what is she doing back there she's crocheting but oh that's cute what is that little audience interaction what is making she's making a hat for a dog

I'm sorry a dog sweater whoa what dog do you dislike so much that a you would put them in one of those things and be this is

Arizona it'll die yes this is a live program very much a very live program hey well you know what

Michael in Los Angeles has a question about the big religious news the day so I suppose we should go ahead and take that one before we get back to the dr.

Davis sermons let's go ahead and talk with Michael in Los Angeles about the gospel of Judas the big news the religious world that really is the biggest non news it's ever hit but anyways what's up Michael how you doing dr.

white doing good good me being eclectic in my callings

I will make this one as well the gospel of Judas you know as since everyone's heard of this news

I want to ask you I know it's not it's not stick a whole bunch of my friends at work or commenting on it they think it's the big thing changing the

Bible and that whole thing I know it's not if I want to ask you where was it found

I was found along the Nile River actually in Egypt almost all of the it's it's written in Coptic it's a

Coptic translation of an original Greek document actually and it would come from the same time period and the same sources of the

Nag Hammadi finds it is as you mentioned comes from the Gnostic religion which flourished there in Egypt in the middle of the second century into the third and fourth centuries and the idea that it could somehow in some way shape or form have some type of impact upon the

Bible even even people who are as opposed to Orthodox Christianity is

Bart Ehrman recognize that all this is is a second century

Gnostic writing it doesn't have anything to do with Judas it is the only thing it can give us insight into it all really is what the

Gnostics in the second century we're doing about Judas we had known that they had found

Judas to be an interesting figure to put into their into their speculations and into their thinking because of his his tragic figure in the

New Testament it's plainly dependent upon a widespread knowledge of the canonical Gospels so it obviously comes from well after them is dependent upon them it comes from a different worldview it's really at the writings of a different religion and Toto and yet despite all of that they you know there are people who need to make a lot of money off of this in fact

I saw something on the internet about the person who purchased it needing to make 23 million dollars to break even and so you know he's got a he's got to sell this stuff he's got to keep this stuff going out and the media of course is always looking for stuff like this to hype it and in reality it has has really almost no meaning outside of giving us an insight into what a different religious group a

Gnostic religious group that was very eclectic in its in its outlook it's it would take in elements of all sorts of different religions but it's based upon a completely different worldview it's it's not monotheistic it is it is dualistic it denied that the

God of the Old Testament and in fact this this is a more developed form of Gnosticism which puts it even later as far as its original writing you know 150 160 around that area that denies that the creator

God of the Old Testament is is the father of Christ in the sense of the father and the son when

Jesus used the term son of himself when he refers the father he's not referring to Yahweh of the Old Testament because Yahweh created all things that Yahweh is an evil

God instead you have this all spiritual God who would not create anything and Jesus needs to get out of his physical body because physical bodies are bad and evil and so on so forth so all it does is is gives us one more document that proves that Irenaeus was right when

Irenaeus wrote about the Gospel of Judas and between 182 and 188 and he described it as a work of fiction and he described it accurately yeah he had read it he had seen it it obviously wasn't as popular as Thomas or even

Mary but that's all it that's all it is and so many the only reason that that the mainstream media is making hay with this is because the mainstream media can count on the fact that the vast majority of its people are absolutely totally and completely ignorant of the backgrounds of the

New Testament utterly and totally so they you know throw a few experts on there who go oh this is just wonderful and there you go you you make lots and lots of money and you can run specials and so on and so forth so Pete who provides our webcasting facilities for us put together a wonderful little online video

I would have crashed his servers if I had linked to it but where he talks about the

Gospel of Judas and what a joke it is and one of the things he says is how can we trust any one like National Geographic that spent five years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in their graphics department to come up with their logo which is a yellow rectangle he's right think about National Geographic I mean that took some work to come up with that logo you know what would

Jacques Cousteau say so anyway but yeah it's if we are prepared if we know something about in fact what you might find interesting what might find useful maybe

I should link to this on on my blog is I did spend some time I spent about 20 minutes maybe at the beginning of my

Sunday school lesson at Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church this Sunday talking about it and tying it in with the fact that we've been going for almost three and a half years now in a synoptic study and we're only up to about Matthew 11 as far as how far we've gotten through the synoptics but so much of what we've talked about as far as studying the synoptic

Gospels backgrounds history things like that very relevant to the issue of the Gospel of Judas and so go to PRBC .org

you might find that to be useful to okay alrighty oh one more question real quick uh -huh and probably read it the book by the book called the text of the

New Testament restoration corruption transmission I believe Metzger uh -huh the new edition came out with Bart Ehrman Bart Ehrman yeah right

I don't know if you've been highly on him I want to ask you is that book useful well

I obviously would recommend utilizing the earlier editions of it I've recommended it to people the work is very useful

I have not gotten the new edition myself to be able to see what kind of influence Ehrman has had but I I cannot recommend anything by Bart Ehrman to anybody simply because he's a spin

Meister and he's not fair in his spinning of things the facts are normally accurate it's the spinning of the facts and and unfortunately my experience is a lot of folks and this is this is a skill that that Christians need to develop today a lot of folks don't see the difference between the statement of the facts and the spinning of the facts and that's where the where the distinction needs to be made and that's where discernment needs to be exercised and so there's still plenty of the first and second editions running around out there so you might find that to be useful so okay alrighty thank you thank you well if y 'all hear is odd things happening out in the studio audience it's because Eddie just showed up with all the caffeine and so I'm sure there's gonna start to be wild applause and various sundry other activities going on because of the infusion of Starbucks caffeine into the into all the people out there but I'm safely ensconced in my padded cell and and don't drink that stuff anyways and so it's um

I'm fairly safe so anyways let's continue on with the dr. Davis sermon you may recall last time we were talking about equal chances that that's what justice is everyone has an equal chance

I was asking equal chance of what and then we have this odd statement in regards to the atonement of Christ it also cheapens the sacrifice of the

Son himself he did not just die for the 10 % of the world's population who would trust him he died for every person who would ever live in all the history of the whole world now

I just immediately have some go how did he find out how many of the elect there are 10 % so 90 % are on a grease get into the seventh level of hell and 10 % are going to have how does he know that I mean is this like a

Gallup poll type thing I've not quite figured that one out the the Bible talks about the sand the sand of the sea as as to numbers

I don't know where this 10 % stuff comes from but again how is that cheapening

God's love how how is God's love made so much greater by God placing the punishment for sins that he knows in fact let's not even look at God's future knowledge remember what was just said he said every person who has ever lived now that would mean that you have the

Canaanites you have the people sitting in Canaan while the people of Israel are in in in Egypt and you have that cryptic statement the

Old Testament about how their their transgressions were piling up and and they were not yet fulfilled and then when

Joshua comes in the land does does God have Joshua send missionaries in to introduce

Yahweh to them and say this is how you worship God properly and etc etc etc no they come in and they wipe everyone out man woman and child now does what what makes someone think that the love of God is exalted by God placing on Christ the punishment for the sins of those individuals that he did not even send prophets to to call them to repentance how does that exalt the love of God how does failure demonstrate that I don't understand

I've not figured that out at all I can't I can't I can't grasp it that's just but it's that's just how it works well here's the respect of persons objection it also cheapens the sacrifice of the

I said the respecter of persons there is seven Calvinism makes God a respecter of persons in the

Bible says that God is not a respecter of persons and that's all he said in fact you can tell and I I didn't watch the

DVD because I can't find it I'm sure it'll show up in a box in places I'm moving stuff but there is an edit there

I don't know what else was said that was all that was said but it is very very common for people to say that Calvinism makes

God a respecter of persons the exact opposite is the case it is Arminianism that makes

God a respecter of persons why because ask any Arminian why are you saved why are you saved another person is not why are you saving your your neighbor is not well because you did something your neighbor hasn't done you somehow had some kind of spiritual insight goodness of heart you were better smarter more understanding there was something about you that made you a

Christian that they didn't have and so since God accepts you it's because there's something in you that makes

God a respecter of persons he is to be a respecter of persons is to for example look upon a rich person and accept that person because they're rich but we reject the poor person because they're poor only in Calvinism do you have a non respecter of persons because God does not give his grace based upon anything in the center that's what unconditional election is all about is that we haven't fulfilled any condition that would then cause

God's grace to be attracted to us or cause God to give us more grace or whatever it might be the electing grace of God is free so the actual accusation is backwards another common and false accusation that Dr.

Davis makes is found in these words everything is for ordained why bother studying the Bible why whole revivals why preach at all well

I stay the Bible well for the same reason I think that that's a doctor Davis would study the

Bible because as a new creature in Christ I want to hear the voice of Christ I want to hear his his voice speaking and teaching the

Spirit of God drives me to the Word of God gives me a love of God how can how does Calvinism have anything different to do about that is does an

Armenian have some better reason to study the Word of God than that why why preach at all well you know anyone who goes back to goes back to the old publication

I put out in 1991 I think called the God's sovereign grace toward the end

I had common questions and objections and one of them was why preach at all and of course the answer we've heard so many times sometimes you you start getting used to it and that is

God ordained the ends that is the salvation of the elect and the means and the means that he has chosen to bring about the salvation of his elect is through the proclamation of the gospel the union of the

Word and the Spirit without the Spirit the Word will not accomplish anything but the Spirit uses the word the gospel to bring that spiritual life and so you have the union of the two

God ordains the ends and means and God is ordained that he is going to use preaching and we are the ones who have the privilege to be used in that fashion to bring the message of life to others and so again the only way you can present this type of thing is if you don't understand what you're critiquing and that comes out very very clearly in the fact that the vast majority of these folks the vast majority of them confuse

Calvinism and hyper -Calvinism and there are a number of illustrations of this in Dr. Davis' sermon by the way

I wrote to Dr. Davis he wrote back very quickly and I identified myself because he didn't recognize who

I was and as soon as I identified myself I've heard nothing back since then so I need to I need to write again

I keep trying to remind myself to write again say did you get my last email because I you know you've responded very quickly before why wouldn't you respond now

I mean I'm playing his own sermon I'm fairly responding to it I you know I think it would be fair to you know respond to these things especially when

I've documented misrepresentations here's another one here's here's the story brought taken from some source

I call it Bob the hyper story so here's here's what people think who won't listen to the other side very carefully or listen only to Dave Hunt's misrepresentation here's where you throw out something about hyper -Calvinism and that allegedly has something to do with with reformed theology itself here

I began the message by telling about a preacher had a great impact on my life his name was Bob a fiery preacher but a friendly man a man who ministered to me who challenged me who encouraged me but then a man that I heard was having some severe difficulties in his life

I was shocked when I found out a few months later

I was talking to my friend Bob's son he was also shocked and also very disillusioned with his father you see

Bob was still traveling and still preaching but he had left his wife and children and was living with another woman he finally divorced his wife and married the other woman what made his sin even worse to me was the way he justified it when his son asked him why and how he could do such a thing

Bob said to his son well son what I discovered was that it was never predestined and foreordained by God that I marry your mother therefore our marriage wasn't really recognized by God but it was predestined by God that I marry this other woman therefore

God recognizes this marriage and not the other one Bob's son looked at his father my good friend he told me this many years ago and he said dad do you realize what that makes me and my brothers and sisters that means we're all illegitimate and dad looked back and said yes son

I recognize that but you know there's nothing I can really do about that that's a simply amazing obviously such a person who would make such an absurd argument would be excommunicated from any meaningful church if they refused to repent of that sin it's odd that he's still running around preaching isn't this person under the eldership of a church isn't this person in a position of of being held accountable for such things but obviously the idea that someone could claim to have that kind of insight into the eternal decree of God is absurd no

Calvinist would ever make that kind of argument is clearly an abuse of a teaching that the person does not even begin to understand and are we really supposed to take the the perspective that if you can abuse a teaching the teaching must be false how many

Christian doctrines have we seen abused in the New Testament itself does not Paul himself say that there were those who slander us by saying let us sin that grace may increase and he says their condemnation is just so that mean you don't preach the freeness of grace because people will will just will will pervert it they pervert it in the day of Paul and so just because someone can take the truth that God has foreordained all that comes to pass he does not give us the means of knowing all those things he gives us his prescriptive will his prescriptive will says husbands love your wives you cannot say oh well

I've discovered God's secret will know you haven't and don't claim that you have it's it's it's offensive to me absolutely offensive to me that someone would use that kind of argumentation truly is let's get the scripture pastors we have two colors on the line already

I have no idea what the last one's asking about but we'll get to it eventually but I need to get some more of this sermon in and so since we have managed to establish a very small amount of airflow into the room here we can go ahead and skip the skip the break we need to and press on here get a little bit more this done so we can get to our collars and as much of the sermon as we as we can hear even though I know the studio audience was looking forward to watching you skill with which you you ran the break but now they can watch the skill with which you don't run the break so they're all just looking fascinated at that rich at the skill that he has in doing what he's doing anyway let's start looking at some specific

Bible passages this is in the second sermon there are two sermons about Davis preached there on this

DVD this now is in the second sermon where he begins finally gained some biblical passages and of course as everyone knows who's listen to this program before it's getting to the biblical passages that is most most useful as a 53 6 all we like sheep have gone astray we've turned everyone to his own way and the

Lord has laid on him Jesus the iniquity of us all that is in the context of promoting universal or general redemption the idea that Christ death does not actually redeem anyone it just makes people redeemable to utilize the language of Norman Geisler who said

Christ death not save anyone it simply made everyone save a ball and that as a very common perspective that's also very common misuse of Isaiah 53 if you realize a 53 beginning verse 5 it says but he was pierced through for our transgressions he was crushed for our iniquities now let me stop right there does are those words that you would put into the mouth of the

Canaanite worshipping bail who is killed by the invading

Israeli armies in the cleansing of Canaan back in the days of Joshua what what is the theological impetus in your system of teaching that would want you to say that the person that person that high priest of let's make him the high priest of Moloch because Moloch was the

God to whom they would sacrifice children ok this is the guy that would kill the children and throw them in the fire and Christ bore the penalty for his sins in his body upon the tree that don't get me wrong if God want to save that high priest of Moloch he could and Christ death could atone for that sin but why if it was not

God's intention to save that person and even the Armenian like Dr. Davis has to say clearly wasn't

God's intention to save that person he didn't send any messengers he didn't send any prophets he didn't say ask if they want to repent then run them through or don't run them through if they repent no kill every man woman and child so if it was not

God's intention to save the person why make Christ suffer their sin what is the function of that now if that is these the words of the high priest of Moloch alright he was crushed for our iniquities

I'm going to use the the ESC rendering of this because at this point it's it's it's it's rather good because it brings us out because it's the term shalom upon him with the chastisement that brought us peace and with his stripes we are healed now how does that have any meaning to the person that we're talking about here what what piece to that person haven't in awaiting the final day of judgment today under the punishment of God what piece they have or is this not the piece that we see in Romans 5 1 therefore having been justified by faith we have

I rain a shalom peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ that's the context that's who is speaking here and that then becomes the context of the text was just cited as a 53 6 all of us like sheep have gone astray did the high priest of Moloch think he had gone astray each of us is turned his own way but Yahweh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him well if we're gonna be consistent and listen to the audience and listen to the results then you either have to be again a universalist and everyone's gonna get saved including the high priest of Moloch or you have to be reformed it is the

Armenian who is again stuck in the middle out there in theological no man's land with no consistency in the position that they are taking and that is exactly what we have in that case there well let's let's look at another is a gently quickly cited not given any context and showing no knowledge of the fact that there have been discussions of all these passages over and over again verse how about John 1232 in John 1232

Jesus said and I if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men on to me no commentary no discussion the fact that John chapter 12 verse 32 is in the context of the end of Jesus public ministry beginning

John chapter 13 you have Jesus ministering only to the disciples there's no discussion the fact that what prompts

Jesus's words is in reference to the coming of Greeks seeking after him

Greeks that Jesus never gives an audience to in fact he hides himself from them non -jews coming to seek

Jesus that tells us something about the all men all kinds of men that is the gospel is going to go out to Jews and Gentiles men from every tribe tongue people a nation it is not all men as in every single person because we know that not every person has been drawn to Jesus Christ by the cross and in fact we are told very plainly that the cross is repellent to the natural man it is repulsive to the natural man is there not a world of difference between how the regenerate man views the cross of Christ and the unregenerate man views the cross of Christ of course there is the idea that I will draw all men to myself is either an unfulfilled lie or it needs to be read in its own context because the simple fact matter is that's not what

God has done now another text that is frequently cited Hebrews I skipped over one let's let's do

Hebrews two in a second let's listen to Acts 17 Acts 17 Paul preached on Mars Hill in Athens Greece and said

God commandeth all men everywhere to repent now of course anyone who's been in reformed church for more than a couple weeks has heard that one cited because that's exactly right

God commands men everywhere to repent and that's why we can say to men everywhere repent what does that have to do with Calvinism nothing absolutely positively nothing oh well if God doesn't if God doesn't change them then they can't so what you're saying is

God's grace can be demanded God has to remove the power of the slavery of sin over everybody to be quote -unquote fair right that's a rejection of federalism that's a rejection of the idea that we are in Adam and that Adam was our representative that would be a rejection then also in the very basis upon which we receive the righteousness of Christ what do

I mean by that Romans chapter 5 if you don't like the idea that you fell in Adam if you don't like the idea that that curse comes upon you from what

Adam did that that's not fair I would have done better no you wouldn't have first of all but secondly

I don't don't hold me accountable for what Adam did well if you accept if you want to reject that federal concept if you want to reject what happened for example with Aiken Aiken sins at AI Jericho and what happens when the punishment comes was it just was it just Aiken who was stoned no it was his wife and kids and kitties and doggies you go

I don't like that okay before you get all upset about that as a good old American who one one man one vote

I did it my way John Wayne Yahoo before you get free get all upset about that remember something for by one man sin entered in by the one man comes the gift so if you don't like the idea that one set what someone else does can be held to your account can be imputed to your account then to be consistent you're going to have to reject the idea that Christ's righteousness is imputed to you as your soul standing before God because that's what

Paul taught in Romans 5 oh but I like that I like the idea that what

Christ did you know that's that's imputed to me and I I like that ok we'll be consistent reject them both or accept them both but don't say

I don't like the one box up the other it's right there right there in front of us ok real quickly here let's get to we'll do

Hebrews 2 and then we'll try to get the calls in and then get back for first Timothy 2 as well because I want to get Hebrews 2 9 powerful verse

Jesus by the grace of God should taste death for every man and again no commentaries offered and it's a shame that that that it isn't offered because it really would be nice to see how these interpretations are made to fit consistently because Hebrews chapter 2 continues the demonstration of the superiority of Christ that we saw in Hebrews chapter 1 even to even to the angels the demonstration that Jesus Christ is

Yahweh and so we read it in context you made him know why in the world is

I must have the wrong NAS upset here because there's a vow in the New Testament there's not supposed to be a thousand

New Testament so I must have yep the NAS NAU I put the NAS in here instead of the NAU I there's some new things here in the

Bible works 7 that I gotta I gotta I gotta work on because I picked the pick the wrong one and this has got the old numeric staring in it but so we'll go with the essay you made him for a little while lower than the angels you have crowned him with glory and honor putting everything in subjection under his feet now

I'm putting everything in subjection to him he left nothing outside his control at present we do not yet see everything in subjection to him again they're speaking to Christ but we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels namely

Jesus crowned with glory and honor because the suffering of death so by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone well it sounds like it's exactly what we're what what dr.

Davis is saying that he tasted death for every single individual let's see if that remains consistent for it was fitting that he for whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory doesn't say everyone but many sons to glory should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering for he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin that is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers saying

I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise and again

I will put my trust in him and again behold I and the children God has given me since therefore the children share in flesh and blood he himself likewise partook of the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death that is the devil and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery now what is the focus of this entire section is it the extent in the sense of well every single individual or is it focused upon what

Christ accomplishes and for whom he accomplishes it and what their identity as he calls them his brothers he calls their described as sons of glory those who experience salvation that is the founder of the salvation perfected through suffering they are the ones who are sanctified verse 11 they are called brothers in verse 11 brothers in verse 12 the congregation in verse 12 the children that God has given me verse 13 the children who share in flesh verse 14 and there in verse 14 through death he destroys the one who has the power of death that is the devil now if these children if it unless you're gonna break up the audience here and say well verse nine is universal but yeah

I know starting verse 10 it all becomes very specific and it becomes the same audience from 10 all the way through or sanctified children brothers yeah okay from 10 to the end of the chapter it's all one group that's different the group not a different group in verse 9 that we're gonna do or do you recognize once again if we're gonna be consistent that you allow the text to speak for itself and if it's a specific group in verses 10 and following all the way down to 15 16 so on and so forth probably the same group in verse 9 too huh yeah probably is 877 -753 -3341 we need to stick that on something in here you know that I need to have a big thing up on the wall because I don't have that on my desk anymore

I had it right there on the desk and so I'm just going by memory and someday I go 877 or and I'm not gonna remember what the world is that's the number that a various various and sundry

I have to get various and sundry in each week for the people in the channel get upset that I don't say various and sundry because they that's one of my my key phrases so various and sundry people have have called the program today and I actually have to scroll back here to see who's who let's talk with Kendall hi

Kendall how are you doing well James how about yourself doing all right so it's the white right debate right

I think it's the white right debate yeah all right and it's in Sedalia on the 21st the daily on the 21st at the

Christian well I'm not even certain be perfect honest whether it's the Christian high school

I'm not sure that it's a Christian high school that it's at it's at the high school and I'm looking here trying to get my program to give me my most current stuff here to see if I can give you the specifics because are you up in that general area five hours away

I'm in Iowa you're in Iowa I live in Jefferson City for a long time 25 years okay

I'd like to go down there to go to the debate but do you have a contact number that's what

I'm looking for right now and I'm wondering where in the world I put all this stuff so the problems in getting way way way too many emails is it's real easy to lose track of this stuff but and while you're looking at it yeah hopefully just listening to this

Davis guy hopefully you won't hear the same argument so the guy you're debating actually attends this church associate pastor there yeah really yeah and that's why

I've been doing this this series is is to attempt to you know make sure that there isn't that kind of an issue and that there has been you know sufficient information provided I'm looking here and unfortunately the fellow

I've been working with has used two different emails and so when I find the one it doesn't give me the other one that I'm supposed to have there because he did send me a specific sort of outline type thing that gave

I think the location or at least the name of the school and so you could probably look up the school there's a phone line ringing there brother brother rich and we're gonna need to put that right in front of you so you can see it okay the name of the high school that's exactly what

I'm I'm getting here is the name of the high school so you can look that up that's what

I was hoping to be able to find here and did he

I'm getting closer here let's have some music or something no so daily man

I have to put on my blog I can't find it it's just not coming up in my in my email stuff here at all hopefully this guy's listening to the your online service fighting line

I don't know if he's able to do so during the day I just I can't find it and someone suggested to putting on the calendar but the calendars only meant as a historical thing that tells us what we did three copies of drawn by the father good taking a couple guys through the gospel

John and I've always wanted to read that I have most of your other books if not all of them but I don't have this one well father it was out of yeah

I was out of print for a while right right right and I saw that was back in print so we're going through that I had one other questions oh the

PowerPoint DaVinci code it a few months ago you mentioned possibly you said you've gone around a different churches presenting a

PowerPoint on the DaVinci code and you thought about possibly making that available sometime yeah

I actually said somebody recently the the only reason I just haven't done it is

I'm just not sure how overly useful it would be because I would

I would basically have to write a book to go along with it because there's there's nothing that's that tells anybody unless you unless you can find a recording of me having done it which

I think is out there at various and sundry places I I I did it in Auburn and maybe the folks down there in Auburn have it up on their on their site or something and then that would give you some stuff but there's there's nothing that tells you okay this is a quotation from this and this is a quotation that I just know it because I put it together and so I'm just not sure how useful it would be okay to do that you know so I'm just having a bunch of disjointed citations from various sources

I make the connections when I when I present them right the PowerPoint itself wouldn't give you that kind of information okay

I understand that all righty all right appreciate okay thank you all right I'm gonna bust up eight seven seven seven five three three three four one oh yeah the

DVD from Seattle well and I've expanded the Da Vinci stuff since we were up in Seattle a good bit too so anyways let's talk with Adam real quick I Adam hello dr.

white how you do doing okay I have a question that I don't know maybe

I'm thinking correctly on this but I heard a debate between a Michael Butler who's a it was

Greg Bonson's protege mm -hmm and a guy by the name of Dan Barker oh yes freedom from Religion Foundation yeah

I've met Dan many many many years ago on KFY I radio in Phoenix on the

Tom like a show so yeah I've been in studio with him actually actually

I'm kind of hearing fuzziness yeah I can't really hear you that well all right well so just but anyways

I was wondering is there any relation between the free thought that Dan Barker promotes and you know this this idea of libertarianism from God and this idea of free will is them that comes from you know this type of perspective that dr.

Davis is presenting well only in the sense that all men outside of outside of Christ are going to seek to downplay the control of well the sovereignty of God and the fact that we are his creatures and that we are formed in his image that would be the only real connection outside of that you know

Dan Barker is as a former assemblies of God as I require as I recall individual he obviously very brilliant individual he's a concert pianist he he told me he designed the railway system for that existed for many years and in the northeastern

United States I mean he's quite the interesting fellow but there really wouldn't be any logical connection

I think between his free thought perspective and and the idea of libertarianism within a theological construct because the theological construct is attempting to deal with issues like the the origin of evil in the nature of evil and things like that and those don't really have any connections to an atheistic worldview as far as as far as the discussions were having so I can't hear you at all

I'm sorry I I have nothing I can do about it everybody else been able to hear me okay all righty

I appreciate you listen to the archive maybe you can pick it up there sorry about that talk to you later I have no idea we're getting hands thrown up in the air and the control studio at every out but I don't seem to be able to hear me fine so I don't know why that would that would be taking place but you know there's lots of different kinds of phones out there

I suppose so maybe that has something to do it don't know all right we'll continue on with dr. Davis one of those really popular passages 1st

Timothy chapter 2 Hebrews 2 9 now why do you do that to me I guess I have to click it twice first Timothy 2 5 & 6 there's one

God in one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all now who gave himself a ransom for all let's let's back up the truck once again and read the context because this is undoubtedly one of the most frequently used text first of all then

I urge the supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all people there's your phrase all people for kings and all who are in high positions that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life godly and dignified in every way and notice what is said there once it says all people then

Paul defines what he means by all people he does not he's not telling Timothy Timothy you need to you need to sit down with the

Ephesian phone book and start with with alpha and pray for each person through Omega he is defining when he's talking about prayers for all people and why would he then have to say this why would you have to say to Christians Timothy need to pray for all kinds of people including kings and those who are in high positions well the reason simple who were person who were the people who were persecuting the

Christians who are the people we'd be least likely to be praying for but those who persecute us and so he's reminding us of that difficult thing that we need to recognize that we need to pray for all kinds of people even those who have privilege those who have possessions that we cannot have they have power and even may misuse that power kings and all who are in high positions that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life godly and dignified in every way now did

I insert into the text something about kinds of people or did the

Apostle Paul the Apostle Paul did he's defining what he means by prayers for all people he defines in the sense of kinds of people not any type of Western idea of every single human being who's ever lived etc etc etc that's that's not what

Paul was telling Timothy to do was Paul telling Timothy to pray for every person who is now dead for the priest of Mulloch again now of course not so that's in the context is it not first in the chapter 2 verses 1 and 2 there is in that context the use of all people for all that is limited to kinds right okay let's just keep that in mind this is good and is pleasing the sight of God our

Savior who desires and here's the same phrase all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth now there are certain people who look at this and they say this is the prescriptive will of God the prescriptive will of God seen in the command all men everywhere should repent all right so that is a perfectly understandable and acceptable utilization of the phrase that all we have here is the prescriptive will of God that there is this prescriptive will that you you command everyone everywhere to repent and that's all you have here but another way of looking at it that I think is more consistent is if you continue following this phrase all people it's all kinds of people that he desires all kinds of people to be saved to come to the knowledge of the truth and that he has provided a way for that to happen specifically he is

God the Savior and he has provided salvation in Christ verse 5 for there is one God and there's one meteor between God and men the man

Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all which is the testimony given at the proper time now that's all one phrase you only have verse 6 being cited there but that's all one phrase and when someone looks at verse 6 is a see he gave himself as a ransom for all every single human being that priest of Moloch back in the days of Joshua Christ gave himself a ransom for him well realize then at least be open about the fact that you are presenting a form of limited atonement you say what do you mean what dr.

Davis believes in limited atonement and I think dr. Davis might be surprised I said that but what

I mean by that is he's limiting the effect of the atonement it doesn't actually save anyone it doesn't actually bring about a ransom for them they're not set free are they of course not and so you don't have you have a limitation on the effect rather than on the scope but the most important question

I would ask and if this comes up this is a question I'm letting mr. right no right now mr. right if you're listening to this and I certainly hope that you are maybe not live but on the archive

I'm sure you're very busy man but if you're listening on the archive if you're gonna bring up for some of the two then

I want to ask a question and that is since this is all one sentence for there is one

God and there's one meter between God and men the man Christ Jesus and if you're gonna say all man you could try to say it's this is all universal then are you trying to say do you want to say that Christ is the mediator between God and the high priest of Moloch who is undergoing the punishment of God this day what is the nature of Christ's work of mediation what does it mean that he is the mediator between God and men that's clearly connected in Paul's theology to the concept of ransom it's clearly connection connected to Paul's concept of the atonement atoning work of Christ is this idea of mediation

Hebrews chapter 7 he is able to say them to the uttermost because he ever lives to make intercession for them the high priest mediation intercession how does all that fit together very very very rarely do

I find our minions who use the kind of argumentation that Dave Hunt uses the doctor

Davis is following him and using who have ever been challenged to think through any of these aspects of this particular issue do you want to try to say that Christ this day stands before the father in the place of those who are undergoing the father's just punishment even to this day and have now for 3 ,400 years approximately does

Christ stand in their place pleading his blood on their behalf as their mediator right now that's what

I want to know and if he does then why are they not saved are you really wanting to say that there is either disruption the

Godhead that the son wants to save them but the father doesn't that the father doesn't have the ability to save them that the death of Christ isn't sufficient whatever it might be you need to come up with one of these positions you know if you're gonna be an

Amaral Dean or whatever you gonna at least think through it and come to a consistent and hopefully exegetically defensible position of your assertion regarding Christ's work as mediator is he the mediator for those and remember

Dr. Davis has said God knows everything is going to happen in the future right and so he knows who is going to be saved he knows who is going to trust in Christ even he uses the for knowledge argument all the all the standard for knowledge stuff that we've had to address many many times before and demonstrate the inconsistencies of and maybe might get to eventually

I don't know the speed we're going we're not probably not going to get there before the debate actually takes place but God knows who is going to accept him and therefore is he saying that though God the father knew from the time of creation that person

X was going to reject Christ that he has still allowed not only for Christ to bear their iniquities but since the high priest this is all one after the high priest is all one of the duties the high priest that he is going to have his son mediate and intercede for this person to no avail at least until the final judgment is that is that what's being presented and then that does that what what kind of impact that have on the fact that the the certainty of our salvation is actually dependent upon the perfection of the work of Christ as intercessor in our behalf if Christ can intercede and fail then what is the true ground of our assurance that we will not be lost that becomes the question well thanks for listening to dividing line today we will continue if we have a fan motor

Thursday afternoon here on the dividing line looking at the doctor Davis sermon and then next

Tuesday as well and then I think I leave on Thursday to fly to Missouri I need to be checking on stuff like that you can tell we've been really busy lately but anyway thanks for listening to dividing line today

Lord willing to see you on Thursday God bless brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

Box 37106 Phoenix Arizona 85069 you can also find us on the world wide web at AOMIN .org

that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks join us again this