What is Marriage and When is Divorce ok | Season 3 Episode 3

Welcome back to the Point Taken Podcast. As Hunter said last week, this is the only podcast. Yes. It's the only podcast. It's just me and Anna today, and today we're going to talk about marriage. But before we do, we need to talk about how funny I am.

I just made a joke, and the camera crew laughed. And what we're going to do is, on Wednesday during Bible study, I'm going to tell a joke. And if nobody laughs, I won't tell another joke for a month. It's not going to happen.

Church members could watch this, and still it's going to happen. So here's, I stole this from Facebook. You ready? Taylor will like this. I got fired from the bank last week. A woman came in and asked me to check her balance, so I pushed her.

See? Right there. I mean, I'm one for one already. See, everyone else. Dalton's just shaking his head. Lowell laughed. Taylor's heard it twice, and she's laughing, and then Nick's trying to deny it. I think she's trying not to laugh.

He's pretending to be busy with the camera when he's really just trying not to laugh. See? He just laughed again. All right. We've got to talk about marriage. What is it? What's the biblical definition?

What is not marriage? What's the Bible say about divorce and all that stuff? But, before we talk about marriage, I believe Anna has a hot take for us. I have a hot take. So we just celebrated Thanksgiving.

Man, this is so much better without Hunter. It is.

Just kidding. We should just do two of us. So, we love you, Hunter. We miss you. No, we don't. So, Thanksgiving was Thursday, at the time of filming this, a few days ago. I have a hot take that sweet potato casserole is a dessert and not a side.

That's not a hot take. That's a fact. No, because I've had people fight me. Mike Burkett, he fought me at Fred's Game.

You can hold a camera and shake your head all you want. What are you talking about?

Sweet potato casserole is a side for you. It's an awesome dessert. For Dalton, it's a side. Nick, do you have...

He doesn't have an opinion. Chattanooga. So, if you do the brown sugar marshmallow stuff.

Okay, what about the crumble topping with the pecans, like your wife made?

She made that at Friendsgiving. She had pecans and bacon. This makes it tough. It was really good. This makes it tough. Taylor? Side? Oh, man. I still think it's a dessert. I think it's a dessert, too.

Alright, well, this kind of plays into our game later. We'll come back to that when I'm going to roast you. And unlike Hunter, I'm not going to create a game and then lose at it. Because he definitely lost last week's game.

By the way, every single person that's part of the podcast, all eight. So, seven of the eight people agreed that Hunter lost the game last week. Yes, he did. And he's the only person that says he didn't.

Alright. Yeah, I definitely think it's a... I shouldn't say definitely. I think it's a dessert, but I do think there's some gray area there. I'll be honest. There is some gray area. Okay. I'll allow it.

The Biblical Definition of Marriage

Anna. Yes.

Definition of marriage. Take your first stab at it. When I think of marriage, a biblical marriage, I think of two people making a covenant with God. And that's marriage.

Right. And I think that God, since he's the creator of marriage, gets to define the parameters of it. So, you know, we're not going to do the whole... We're not necessarily going to jump into homosexuality again.

We did that back on previous episodes. But, I don't think most people are aware that the Bible is the originator of marriage. Governments decided that that was good for their society to promote that because it made stable families.

But the originator of marriage is God. He's the creator of it. So, he gets to decide the parameters of it. It's kind of like... What's her name? J .K. Rowling gets to decide the characters of Harry Potter.

She is the creator of it. God is the creator of marriage. He gets to decide what it is. And I would agree with Anna. It is a covenant with two people. A man and a woman. A man and a woman. One man, one woman.

The two making a covenant before God. That would be a marriage. And whenever we talk about what's your view of marriage, what's the biblical view of marriage, I always tell people, I never want to have a view different than Jesus.

I never want to have a view different than Jesus. So, I just want to read for y 'all Jesus' view of marriage. This is Matthew chapter 19. I'll start in verse 3. And the Pharisees came up... Hold on, I'm getting a call here.

I'm going to shut that up. And the Pharisees came up to test him by asking, Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause? Now, we'll get into divorce in a minute. But the Pharisees are asking, Is it lawful to divorce one's wife?

Now, if you aren't familiar with this, they're asking this as a trap. Because they have followed a set of beliefs that said a man could divorce a woman for any cause. Any cause he wanted. And Jesus knows that's what they're getting at.

So, Jesus says, Have you not read that he created them from the beginning, made them male and female, and said, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother, and hold fast unto his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

He's quoting from... Genesis. So, Jesus' view of marriage is that which was always from the beginning, from the book of Genesis. By the way, that should tell us Jesus' view of Genesis. And the rest of the Bible.

One man, one woman, the two becoming one flesh. That is, leaving the authority of his father, a man shall leave his father and mother, make a new household, cleave unto his wife, the two will become one flesh.

So that's Jesus' view of marriage. It's pretty straightforward. That means that anything that is not that cannot be called marriage. At least in the biblical sense of it. So, when we talk about what is marriage, I just wanted to show that, because I think a lot of people think that we have the right to decide what that is, when in fact, Jesus, God, already declared what marriage is a long time before you and I ever existed.

So if that's what marriage is, Miss Anna, what would marriage not be? Polygamy. Polygamy, because what does it say? The two will become one flesh. That one verse gets rid of a lot of ideas.

Same-sex marriages. Obviously, we talked about that previously.

We did, and it's just another case of it's not that I don't recognize, that's not marriage. There's really, in one sense, and this is not an insult, it's just a fact, there's no such thing as same-sex marriage.

Because that's not marriage. It doesn't exist. You would almost have to put it in quotations every time you use it, because it doesn't exist. It's just not a thing. Within the government, the American government, there is marriage.

Of course, and if you believe that is the definer of marriage, then there is such a thing as same-sex marriage. But if you believe that God gets to define that, then there isn't. I think the local church is important here.

Nothing could be confirmed without the testimony of two to three witnesses. That's, by the way, why we still have witnesses at our weddings now. Therefore, the next topic, which is, Anna, kind of what you wanted to get into, what are the biblical allowances for divorce?

So what do we have? What are some that we know of? Sexual immorality. Jesus says in this chapter, sexual immorality would be one. The only other one we can think of, is that my fault? Okay. The only other one that sometimes is used is the idea of an abandonment of the covenant from 1 Corinthians 8.

Long story short, there are only one or two exceptions that allow for divorce. So true biblical Christians only have a disagreement about the number one or two. That's it. That's why Christians should care a lot about divorce, because there's only a couple of allowances for it.

We talk about what marriage is, what it's not. There's only a couple exceptions for divorce. When the Pharisees are asking Jesus this question, it's because in the book of Deuteronomy, God talks about if a man divorces a woman, he must write her a certificate, which is a way for her not to be punished, a way for her not to have judgment brought upon her.

They took that as a man can divorce a woman for any reason whatsoever, which is not what Jesus says. Jesus says, no, you go back from the beginning. That's not what it was ever intended to be. So, with that being said, what if, Anna, we come across somebody who is unequally yoked, as we say, who is married to an unbeliever?

How should they handle that now?

If the believer is wanting a divorce from the unbeliever,. Right. You got yourself into this, and you made a covenant, whether it was to that person, if they're not a believer, you made a covenant with God.

And to me, well, granted, you know, this is my opinion. If you make a covenant to God, whether that other person is a believer or not, you made that promise, and you need to uphold your end of the deal.

If it's not within the parameters of the few reasons of divorce. Like that example that I gave you before the podcast started of that one woman, she was a believer, and she's like, well, my husband and I, we grew apart, we just don't have anything in common.

I'm like, okay, we'll get over it, find a new hobby. That's not a biblical reason for divorce. Right, it's like, find a new hobby to, you know, do together. It's like, that's ridiculous. It's like, are you a child, and just, you know, you just want to get out of something.

Because it's difficult, and it's just not fun anymore? I could think of several ways someone can find themselves in that scenario, where they're married to an unbeliever. One, they both were unbelievers when they got married, and now one of them has become a believer since then, so now what do they do?

Now they, okay, so think about that scenario, and maybe some of you listening have been in that scenario before. You were both unbelievers when you got married, and you were converted, you were saved, in the middle of that marriage.

Now, by biblical standard, you are unequally yoked. At the same time, is that really a qualification for divorce because you entered into that covenant? The other side of the argument would be, but you didn't enter into that covenant with God.

Right. Another way that you could find yourself in that scenario is, you sinned, knowingly married an unbeliever, and now are convicted about it, and maybe finally, you thought the person you married was a Christian when they in fact are not, or later revealed that they were not.

So you know, like, missionary dating.

Yeah. I mean, so-called. So-called missionary dating. That's another one that has to be in parentheses. Where you date somebody to try to convert them. Okay. So what about like missionary marriages?

The problem with that is,.

Again, as you have already said, and we already said, since marriage is a covenant between two people and God, that shouldn't be a thing because if it's a covenant with two people and God, they're most submitted to God.

There shouldn't be such a thing as missionary marriages. But there are. There are because of one of the three scenarios we just said. Right. And I would argue, I would argue that if someone converts in the middle of their marriage, that their first instinct should not be to divorce their unbelieving spouse.

I don't think that should be their first instinct. Right. There is a chapter of the Bible dedicated to what a woman does if she's married to an unbelieving husband. Is that in Ephesians? It's 1 Peter chapter 3.

1 Peter. And nowhere in that section does it say divorce him. Nowhere. Now again, Peter does not specify how she got herself into that scenario. Could be that she sinned. Could be that she became a believer halfway through.

Could be that she thought he was a believer and is not. Peter doesn't specify. In none of those cases does it say, so your first thing should be divorce him. It says, win him over with submission, servitude, kindness, tenderness, tender heartedness.

That's exactly what it says. Yeah. Just a quick side note. That example of the reverse is not mentioned in the Bible. There is not a long teaching in the Bible about what happens when a man is married to an unbelieving woman.

Right. And I think there is a reason for that. I think that typically we see in the Bible when a man repents before God, the family soon follows after him. So I think that would be why you don't see that in the Bible.

We do see that where a man repents and the family soon follows. Cornelius, the Gentile convert, I think we see that time and time again. So when we go back to what do we do in those scenarios, I don't think the first reaction should be divorce.

I think the first reaction should be what you were getting at. And that would be a very difficult thing to be in. But I want to share a story. Okay. This goes back to the divorce thing and how there's really only a couple of biblical reasons for divorce.

Sexual immorality, an abandonment of the covenant, and that could be defined a few ways. Physical abuse, that kind of thing. There is a man who I am in a class with. We're doing some counseling training as the pastors here at Witten.

And this man's wife left him 18 years ago, but never remarried somebody else. So in his mind and his conscience, they are still married, even though she left him 18 years ago and moved to another state.

So he has never remarried because he said, I made my vows before God, and until she remarries, I have no right to marry another.

Because that wouldn't be considered adultery. In his—. Correct. Yes, yes.

Let me tell you something. That's a man right there. That is a honorable man.

For sure. Because you don't—and especially with men, like with our culture, men are more likely to get remarried after divorce or after being widowed or whatever, and vice versa. Sure. Yeah, so that's impressive to me.

It's honorable. I've never heard of anybody doing that in today's age.

And he shared that with the entire class that he barely knew, because he wanted it to be an example for other people, which I thought was really cool. So again, marriage, if it's a covenant between one party, another party, with God as the mediator, God as the arbiter, God as the making sure that both people keep up their side of the vow, their side of the covenant, if that's what it is, and he decided that it's one man, one woman, then who are we to say anything different?

And you know, it's funny. I hear people all the time say things like, yeah, but other godly people in the Bible didn't follow that example. Right, because they were—. Because they're still sinners. Because they're still sinners just like me and you.

We still sin. By the way, just a side note. This is a little random ADD thing for you people. That little glass—. It needs a rose in it. No, that little glass ball thing right there. Every time I see that, this thing, I think of, was it PlayStation 1?

Spider-Man game. You could only pan left or right. Maybe it was Nintendo then, because there was no 3D version of it. Spider-Man game, you could be Venom or Spider-Man, and he had to fight Mysterio, and they made his glass little space ball there like that.

Every time I see that, I think of Mysterio.

I always think of Beauty and the Beast where the rose—. He's a villain. Spider-Man's a villain.

He was in one of the new movies. He just wasn't a great villain in the new movies.

It's like today's movies. They all suck. No. They're all remakes.

That's okay. No, they're not. When you say today, how far back are we talking? Like 2020. The last couple of years with movies.

We need movies. Anyway, let's get back to the marriage topic. Okay. We'll get back to that.

Okay. Anna, with that being said, what advice specifically—. In fact, let me just read the 1 Peter passage, and then, Anna, I want you to expound on it and give advice to anyone who may be listening right now who is married to an unbeliever.

This is 1 Peter 3, and this is about a woman who is married to an unbelieving husband. Likewise, wives—now, this is all wives at this part. Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some of them do not obey the word, they may be won over without a word by the conduct of their wives.

When they see your respectful and pure conduct, do not let your adorning be external and braiding of hair and putting on gold jewelry or clothing you wear, but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is in God's sight very precious.

This is how the holy woman who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord. And you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers are not hindered.

Just a quick note to the men, I'll let Anna get to the women. Gentlemen, did you catch that? Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way and honor them as the weaker vessels, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

God does not heed or hear the prayers of men.

Who do not honor their wives. I don't know if I've ever noticed that before, mainly because I've paid attention to what the wives... I have, because it's terrifying. Well, that's your perspective, but it's like, it's me.

For a woman, I've only really paid attention to the female instructions.

So you do a woman married to a man, and then I'll do a believing man married to an unbelieving woman.

Okay, so I actually know a woman within our church who was married to a nonbeliever... Oh, me too. ...for like 20-plus years. She did exactly what Scripture called her to do. She prayed for him. She continued to go to church with her and her children every single Sunday, every single Wednesday, and she was an example to him.

And that's what, in Peter, it's telling us to do as women is to be an example to your husband, not to chastise him, not to criticize him, not to be like, well, you never come to church with us, and you know, blah, blah, blah.

Like, no, you need to be an example, not by your speech, but by your actions. It's not what you say, it's what you do. And so I think exactly what Scripture says, you need to do that, because especially with our generation and with today's culture, women don't take crap.

It's just like their husbands, the husbands, and like any movie that you watch, any show that you watch, anything that you listen to, whatever. He's an idiot. He's always an idiot. He's an idiot. He's completely stupid.

He's weak. He's just an idiot. He's the comic relief. That's all he is. And it's like, I wouldn't want to be married to somebody like that, and I'm not married to somebody like that. And it's just like, man, I really hate how they make all these dads and husbands look.

And I will tell you the one show, the one show out of these last like handful of years that got it right on this dad. I'm going to guess it. Okay. Animated or not? No. American or not? American. It's like 20 questions.

But they did such a good job with this character of making him look like a strong husband and dad. You better not say Breaking Bad. No. Okay. All right. Okay. No. Okay. Walt. Loved him at the beginning.

Hated him at the end. Come for me in the comments on that one. Yeah. I will in a little while. But okay. Hold on. I want to guess this. Give me the genre. Drama. I think you and your wife have watched this show.

I don't know if you finished the show, but I think you've watched it. Oh. 1883. No.

Do you give up? I'll call a friend. Anybody? None of the nerds know. All right. Go. This is us. I never watched that one. You didn't? I think that's the one that every time my wife watched it, she cried.

I'm like, why are you watching this crap? Yeah. Okay.

I watched. I saw really quick. I saw a meme. And it's just like, it was this girl and she was postpartum after having her baby. And she's watching. This is us. I'm like, that's the worst time to watch.

This is us. You're flipping. Right. But anyway, with this is us and my husband and I have talked about this. I said, if I wasn't married, like granted, this guy, they're not Christians or anything, but it's like the way that he is a husband to his wife.

And the way that he is a father to his children, like with this day and age on TV, he is just such a good example. You fight for his kids. He respects his wife. His wife calls him out in private. And he ended up, you know, he was an alcoholic, whatever.

And she goes, I don't care what you do, but you're going to be a man and you're going to fix this. And he did. And he fixed it. I just, I don't know. I love that. That's like one of my favorite shows.

But with that being said, going back to all of that, a lot of the time with these TV shows, they just make these dads look like completely without a doubt. And like you said, the comedic comedic relief.

And so with this, with scripture, it shows us as women, we have to be example just by our actions. And we don't need to criticize her. Cause that just turns the guy off to even coming to church. It's like, well, you're a hypocrite without a doubt.

You know,.

Give some a bad taste in their mouth. Before I talk about the, the men who may be married to an unbelieving wife, a quick sign out about that. This is going to offend some of you. So just get ready. I'm my own man.

I can do whatever I want, or I am a strong, independent woman. There are, um, I've heard that so many times, right? Let's read Jesus's words one more time. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother Cleveland to his wife.

Emma too will become one flesh. Let's let's count. The two will become ready, Nick one flesh. There is no such thing as a independent married person. Let me say that again. I need my husband. I don't know about you.

Do you need your wife? Yes. If, unless you want to disagree with Jesus to one flesh, there is no such thing as an independent married human being on planet earth. Right? Doesn't exist. Your team. Yeah.

Act like it. So quit saying things like I'm my own man. I can do whatever I want, or I'm a strong, independent woman. If you are married next step, you're not allowed to say either of those. If you are a Christian married or not, because the Bible says you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Bible says you are in one body, one baptism, one spirit, again, the opposite of independent.

It's all about being a part of a team. That's right.

You know, there is no such thing as an independent Christian or independent married person. There is no biblical exception that you can try. You're wrong. A man who's married to an unbelieving wife. I would say what I say earlier.

God rewards the obedience of a head of a household. As an example, the rest, I believe will follow. There is an example. That I had the privilege of seeing in our church of this exact scenario. And Mary and Mary to an unbelieving wife.

He came to me for counsel. And I told him. You submit and obey the word. And see if your wife and your children will not follow. And it was not. But a couple months later. She came to the Lord. God honors.

The obedience. Guys. Entire nations. Benefited. And were. Faced consequences based on the obedience of kings. That still happens today, by the way. Federal headship. Well, the federal head of a family.

Much smaller level. Is the father. Is the husband. Is the man of the house. And the same thing happens. God blesses or curses. That unit. Based on the leadership of the federal head. Of the family. And we could go into federal headship.

It's really cool. Adams, a federal head of all humanity. Jesus is the federal head of his church.

I'm just saying. I'm glad I'm a wife and not a husband. And my husband. Oh, it's terrifying. And I'm like, I'm sorry. You have all of that weight on your shoulders.

I'm just glad. It's terrifying. Let me tell you something. It's not hard for somebody who doesn't care. But for a child of God. Who. Wants to obey the word. It's terrifying. It's an all. Awesome responsibility.

But. There's blessing in it as well. And. You know. The Bible talks about. In Proverbs 12. An excellent wife. Is the crown. Of her husband. The crown. Of her husband. The one that. Is shown off. A symbol of his authority.

And one who proudly. Symbolizes his authority. But also. Is adorned. Is praised. Okay. That would be my advice to a. A man marriage. An unbelieving. Woman. And submit yourself to the word of God. Pray.

And see. If. She does not follow soon. Alright. Anything else about marriage Anna. I would just say. Kind of going on. What I referenced earlier. About. You and your spouse.

Are on the same team. Yep. And that's one thing that. I've talked to my husband about. We've had. Differing opinions. On certain things. And. There was one thing with our. Our new baby. And I'm like okay.

We both have. Certain things that we want to do. Certain opinions. Whatever they are. They are both. And the baby's. Best interest. We are not competing each other. Competing against each other. We both want what's best.

We're on the same team. Right. Where can we compromise here. Right. And a lot of the times. It's kind of like what you're. What you said earlier about. You know like. I'm the independent woman. Like I don't need no man.

And stuff. It's like I need my husband. I call him all the stuff. I'm like hey. Can you do this for me. Hey. I can't fix this. Can you help me fix this. I'm like completely useless. But I rely on him.

For certain things. Because I trust that he can do that. But. I just. I see a lot of spouses. Especially within the church. Fighting against each other. Whether it's through. Budgeting like. Finances are a big issue.

Sure. Within marriages. And so that's one. Area that I see. That it's really prevalent. But it's like you know. You guys both want. Certain things. It's like why can't you just. You know. Let's talk about it.

Why do you want those things. Why does he want those things. Okay. Let's come to an agreement. And I feel like a lot of couples. Now. Especially within the church. They don't want to compromise.

Because they want to be. Well I want to be right. And it's just like. Right. It's just pride talking. Yeah. It's like. But you just. You guys are on the same team. Let's do it. Together. A wife. Should be the husband's.

Main counselor. Main. Advice giver. And a husband should seek out. That advice. Above anyone else's. In decision making. And in. The way of thinking. That's how it's supposed to be. Alright. Miss Taylor.

We invite you. To the set. Do we have a mic for her? It's time. Oh I got a mic for her. Okay. She's over there. It's time for the game.

Yeah. Well I changed it. In the middle of us talking. Okay. I can't hear you. Well you gotta. You gotta turn on the mic there. Taylor. Come on. You can do it. We believe in you. We believe in you. And she's on our tech team you guys.

Well. Talk in it. Hello. Yeah. I can't hear. I can't either. So they're not gonna be able to pick her up. They're not gonna be able to hear her. I'll pass her the. Give her the mic. I can pass her the mic.

Unless Nick wants to come try to do it. I can just pass her the mic. Alright. Here's what we're gonna do. And I changed this. We have the best tech team ever.

Can you believe this? How are we doing now? A round of applause. I can hear you great. Yay. Woo. Alright. Um. I changed it halfway through. Here's what we're gonna do. I had a debate at work about a year and a half ago on this topic.

And I called. This is when I was working at Evergreen. I called probably everyone in this room. But we're gonna do it again. We're gonna do it again. Oh. I remember. Cause it comes up. I got. Every holiday season.

Now listen. I got the call. Here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna say the question and then the natural clarifying question will come up. Here's the question. You get one the rest of your life. Cake or pie?

There is a correct answer. And we'll go over that in a minute. Cake or pie?

Speak. This is difficult because I don't like either. Like I detest both. And this is why. Hey Dalton. She's the comment denominator. Okay. Okay. That's why I'm glad we picked her for this. Then pick the least.

I would go with pie probably. Out of the two of them I would probably go with pie. Why would you go with pie?

Oh. No one's asked the clarifying question yet.

I guess because you have like fruit like different variables in it like fruit. You can have a meat pie. You can have savory pies. Meat pies. Glory sweet pies. You can. I can have savory pies for life.

Sweeney Todd. Yes. Thank you. Okay.

We watched that recently. All right. Go Anna. I'm about to. I'm about to ruin y 'all's world in a minute. You gotta think deeply about this one. Oh. What about cheesecake? There it is. There is the question.

There is the question. This is the call. Cheesecake. I got the call at work. Listen. Are you busy? Let me explain something. I had this nerd friend I worked with who's related to someone sitting to my right.

This is what he said. I called him. It was his off day. I didn't care. This was important. I called him. Now he's a nerd. Different definitions of important. When I say a nerd, I mean every five seconds of conversation he pushes his glasses up when they're not down.

That's the level of nerd we're talking about. I do that. I do that when I'm not wearing my glasses. This is what he said. This is Mike. I called him. He said, hello. And I said, bro, cheesecake or pie?

That's all I said. He did this. Tell me where you placed cheesecake because that is the section I want to be in. I don't care about your other arguments about brownies and pizza because I'm sure those were involved, which they are about to be, by the way.

Where is the cheesecake? And you may put my vote there. Click. Now, let me explain. The bet was because the guy from Chattanooga, which shows his intelligence level, the guy from Chattanooga that was there said cake would win overwhelmingly.

Well, there were 40 people working there. I said pie would win overwhelmingly. And if I lost, I had to bake a pie for everyone. And if he lost, I mean a cake, and if he lost, he had to bake pies for everyone.

Everyone understand? So this was important. By the way, the vote ended up being, I'm not kidding, 21 to 19. It was close. Okay. Now, Taylor answered too quickly because we got to deal with the cheesecake thing.

So can I say one thing about cheesecake?

Yeah. The same person that's related to me that loves cheesecake for Thanksgiving, he special ordered two cheesecakes shipped in from New York. That doesn't surprise me.

He ordered, no, didn't he order like subs for your dad from New York or something last year? Yeah.

He doesn't surprise me. Let's, let's go ahead and I'm going to argue that cheesecake isn't the pie section. And before all of you people, before all of you people, all of you ignorant souls. Is that too harsh to say on the podcast?

I was ignorant. It's true. Souls. Truth is truth. In the comments saying the name cake isn't, okay, let me just go ahead and dispel that. Grape nuts are not grape or nuts. The affordable care act doesn't mean they care.

The Patriot Act wasn't patriotic just because it's in the name does not mean that it is that thing. Koala bears are not bears. I can go on. I have so many of these built up for arguments just because it's in the name doesn't mean it's that thing.

Now I agree. Cheesecake is clearly a pie based on the crust and filling combo, non layered, non spongy, non caked.

I agree. I was going to go on the side of things.

Cheesecake is a cake or a pie pie. Lowell, thank you. Pie. Thank you. All right. Now with that being said, now that cheesecake is in the pie category, what does cake have left? I am even willing to give them brownies.