Tom Ascol Joins to Discuss the Caner Situation

of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Yeah, better get online quickly today, 877 -753 -3341, because we will be joined here in just a moment by the fellow who, you know,

I sort of feel like Johnny Carson interviewing Jay Leno, you know, the guy who sort of wants to take over, because the last time we had him on he, we burned the phone lines up and we actually,

I think right now, only have one line left open anyway. So, 877 -753 -3341 and the reason, of course, of the tremendous interest is because I am joined today by a man who is an expert in all things about fall foliage and, you know,

Tom, I knew about your expertise in Baptist history and stuff like that, but when did you pick up the expertise in fall foliage?

Oh, well, James, since I've been living in southwest Florida, at least twice a year we get to watch the green needles of our pine trees turn brown and the palm fronds, they also take on a nice hue of brown before they fall, so I've taken a great interest in fall foliage since then.

I was going to say, I've been to Florida and as pretty as Florida can be, we have the same situation, you know, we've got the palms and the cacti and stuff like that, which don't do much as far as, you know, when it gets down to what, 72 during the winter, that doesn't affect them a whole lot, but at least we have mountains to look at, you don't even have those.

No, my children spent the first years of their lives thinking it's overpasses on the highway with mountains. That is pretty, well, my daughter didn't see snow until she was 14, so that's just the desert razzle.

Anyway, sir, thank you very much for joining us today, I tell you, it's, you know, we actually haven't, you and I actually haven't spoken on the phone a whole lot during all of this.

We've done most of our communication in written form and I suppose that's probably helped from us both experiencing blood pressure issues along the way because it's, honestly, and I said this to you in email,

I would like to start off by publicly apologizing for ever having dragged you into the midst of all this, I just honestly have never experienced a situation like what we've gone through here.

I have done, this would have been my 60th moderated public debate and I've debated,

I mean, the list, Jesus seminar scholars like John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg and Roman Catholic apologists from Jerry Matatix, Robert St.

Genesis, Patrick Madrid, Father Pierce Stravinskas, Mitchell Pacwa, Mormons in Salt Lake City, I mean,

Jehovah's Witnesses in Tampa for crying out loud and I just had never experienced anything like this in 16 years and so I never, ever, ever,

I don't have anything out for you, Tom, really, honestly. Well, James, I feel like I'm the one to blame then because until you invited me to join you, you've had smooth sailing getting the debate set up and taking place.

Well, honestly, the only time any progress took place is when I let you take the lead anyways so, you know, we can go back and forth on this but I know for you,

I'm hoping that this will not be something where you never, ever, ever even give consideration to doing a debate ever again.

Yeah, compare it to my foray into the stock market. I'm great at timing investments right before the bubble bursts.

There you go. Yeah, that's sort of, I don't even go there. I don't have anything to send there anyways.

What does it matter? So, well, it has been an experience. I obviously hope on the serious level that some good is coming out of all this and I think that there will be some good coming out of all this even though and I haven't listened to it today.

Maybe you have had an opportunity to. I was going to try to get it queued up before the program but I just was too busy with other things.

My understanding is that there was a sermon preached Sunday evening at Woodstock on Calvinism again and have you had a chance to hear that yet?

I've got it queued up finally to the place where Dr. Vines is starting to speak but I didn't get to listen to it yet either.

Yeah, I want to take an opportunity to listen to that and it's not like this is going away and given what you do.

I mean, for me right now, a lot of my focus is on the subject of Islam and things like that and so it's not absolutely central to me but being the head of the founders organization, this is what you deal with all the time.

This is unfortunately part and parcel of a daily grind. How do you respond when one side will preach against the other but when you try to get meaningful dialogue going, it seems to be next to impossible to do.

Well, it is very frustrating because I would love to have meaningful dialogue. One of the good things that we have going for us, however, is that the fact that one side refuses to participate in that doesn't shut down the flow of information because we have so many outlets today for people to get information who want to know.

So anyone who wants to know about our heritage, about history, about theological issues, there's information readily at hand.

I tell you the biggest challenge I face is fighting cynicism in my own heart because these types of things happen and just all kinds of sinful thoughts and attitudes come out of me and someone else's sin is never a justification for my own and so that's my biggest battle right now is trying to respond to these types of things in a firm, loving way without giving vent to sinful attitudes.

Yeah, well, I don't claim to have perfectly survived that labyrinth myself.

You cannot help when you're falsely identified as a hyper -Calvinist. In my situation, as you know,

I attempted repeatedly to offer free of charge examples of theological debate to the canners to say, look, this is what we're talking about doing.

Notice how these debates take place. Notice how your focus is not upon speaking 350 -400 words per minute.

Your focus is upon edifying the audience, bringing them along, interaction so that the people can hear and judge for themselves.

I would think that Baptists especially would want that kind of opportunity for individuals that we believe are going to be responsible before God for what they believe to have the opportunity of hearing that kind of thing and so it's been very, very frustrating to be turned down at every turn and then to have this final nail in the coffin, shall we say.

But let me ask you this question, and I think this is important. This term hyper -Calvinist is being thrown about with a tremendous regularity that is extremely bothersome to me.

I mean, I have to think twice before I call someone a Pelagian because I know that that word has a historical meaning that may or may not be correct and I figure my credibility is damaged if I very seriously identify someone as a

Pelagian when in point of fact they are not. And yet it seems that the other side doesn't have any problem using this as a general overall club to beat anybody up with.

And so let's talk a little bit about hyper -Calvinism and try to help folks understand that the

Founders Movement, my books, the vast majority of the people that I know of who are speaking and writing today are in no way, shape, or form hyper -Calvinist.

So how would you initially, if someone walked up to you at a Founders meeting and said, hey, such and so said that you all are promoting hyper -Calvinism in the convention, what would be your first response to them?

I'd say, what is hyper -Calvinism? Right. And then they wouldn't be able to answer 99 times out of 100 and the answer that they would give would be pretty convoluted and I'd try to go from there.

I do the same thing when people ask me, are you a Calvinist? Ask, what do you mean by that? And inevitably, more times than not at least,

I get responses far away from what Calvinism is. The thing that frustrates me most,

James, I know it does you as well in this whole thing, is we are talking about scholars. We're talking about men who ought to know better.

If they don't know better, then they ought to be ashamed. Because hyper -Calvinism is not some kind of indefinable nebulous concept.

It's been defined historically, theologically. There are very technical issues involved in it.

And if someone is going to throw that label around as a pejorative accusation against someone, they need to know what it means.

And hyper -Calvinism has been, can be defined. And it grieves me when men who ought to know better misuse it the way that it has been misused in the exchanges that have gone back and forth regarding this debate and elsewhere.

I mean, as you know, but just for the sake of those who may not that are listening, hyper -Calvinism and Arminianism have the same philosophical foundation.

They just go in opposite directions from their faulty presuppositions. And the presupposition is this, that man's ability is coextensive with his responsibility.

So he can be no more responsible than he is able. And the hyper -Calvinist says, that's true.

We know that man has no ability spiritually and morally. We read the scriptures that talk about that. Therefore, he's not responsible.

And the Arminian looks at the presupposition and says, yes, we know that's true. And we know that man is very responsible because the

Bible talks about his responsibility. Therefore, he must be able. And it's the Calvinist who says, hey, both you guys are wrong.

Your starting part's wrong. We have no spiritual ability, but that does not lessen our responsibility.

And we must live with that biblical tension because that's the reality. And it's fascinating to me that part and parcel of recognizing that biblical balance is to recognize the nature of sin and our relationship to Adam.

And I don't know about you, but I have a hard time believing that a lot of folks today in mainstream evangelical churches actually really still believe in the doctrine of original sin.

I mean, it's fallen on hard times. It seems to me that most people accept the concept that they're actually are innocent people and that we are not guilty before God through our relationship with Adam.

It has to be this idea of, well, no, unless I have X amount of information, I've done

X, Y, or Z, that I'm somehow this innocent person. And so that feeds into it. Interestingly enough, in listening to Ergin Kanner's sermon earlier this year, that was one of the issues that came up was

I honestly had to question what does this mean in regards to the doctrine of original sin? Is it even being taught anymore in most churches?

Systematic theology, extremely important. It all fits together. And unfortunately, hyper -Calvinism is a term that comes from systematic theology.

But if you don't have a systematic theological root upon which to base it or to define it, it really becomes nothing but an insult that doesn't really communicate anything about anyone else at all.

It doesn't help move the dialogue forward. But in my opinion, that's why it's being used.

It stops the dialogue. It freezes it in place. It's an emotional term. Yeah, you're exactly right.

And what you said earlier about being careful about using the term Pelagian, it ought to be true of anyone who would use hyper -Calvinist because they discredit themselves in the minds and eyes of thinking people or people who are willing to go do a little research because they will be disproven every time when they've thrown that term around.

And so they're just hurting their own credibility. And I hate to see that happen for their sake if you hope that they would come to terms with what is true and accurate in this whole field.

Well, you and I both know that there are plenty of people at Liberty University who know what a hyper -Calvinist is, and they know that we ain't that.

They know that we are involved in evangelism. I mean, you know, I've written against hyper -Calvinists.

You know, it's sort of like Spurgeon wrote against hyper -Calvinists, and it'd be like turning around and calling Spurgeon a hyper -Calvinist, even though my understanding is that students in some classes at Liberty are told that Spurgeon denied particular redemption.

It's sort of hard to do in light of his sermons. But anyway, as it may, that seems to be the assertion that is being made there.

I have written against hyper -Calvinists, and you and I both know no hyper -Calvinist who respects himself would ever be caught dead passing out tracts outside the temple in Salt Lake City, sharing the gospel with the crowds during General Conference, as I have done,

I don't know how many times, lost count, somewhere in the 30s. They would never be caught dead doing what

Rich and I did back during the papal visit up in Colorado, standing amongst the thousands and thousands gathered for the papal visit during World Youth Day, or standing along the trail in Cherry Creek State Park as the pilgrims are going to Mass.

And there we are passing out tracts and literature to all these Catholics as they're going by. Hyper -Calvinists don't do things like that.

The whole idea is beyond conception, and we affirm

God's common grace, we affirm the command to share the gospel, not just,

I hate that term, share, to proclaim the gospel that all men everywhere are commanded by God to repent.

I don't know who the elect are, and that's why ironically it was us that were up in Salt Lake City.

A lot of the Armenians didn't bother because they figured those folks were too hard anyways. They were too hardened in their false religion.

We were the ones that were up there because that belief on our part that God commands men everywhere to repent and that there is no power in heaven and earth that can stop the

Holy Spirit of God from drawing his people into himself means that we'll go and proclaim the gospel to the Moonies and the

Mormons and outside the district conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses and in all those places because there's no power that can stop

God's spirit and you can't assume that those people have ever heard the gospel. They've heard a false gospel, but you can't assume they've ever heard the true gospel.

And so we go to them. That in and of itself, all other issues aside, there's all sorts of other issues that go into the subject of hyper -Calvinism, but that in and of itself absolutely destroys the accusation of hyper -Calvinism.

So to see it as the first statement, and by the way, did you notice that you were spared that in the first?

I'm the big baddie here. I suppose that's a good thing. I'm a gentler, kinder form of hyper -Calvinism.

Yeah, there you go. You know, I'm reminded of what Martin Lloyd -Jones said one time in a sermon.

He said, the ignorant Arminian does not understand the difference between Calvinism and hyper -Calvinism.

Sadly, he's been proven true time and again. Sadly, and that's the situation here, but you know,

I just don't know how, you know, it's got to be a work of God's spirit and it is interesting to me.

It's so easy in my flesh to become frustrated and to go, well, look, you know, we've got to tell people the truth about this and as if it's somehow up to me to make this happen and to do this and I have to recognize, you know what, the same word of God that God used to humble my heart and to cause me to love his sovereignty and to love his grace and to recognize his holiness, as long as that word is still on this earth and the spirit of God is there, his truth is going to continue.

Whether it's extremely popular or not extremely popular, his word is going to continue. That's his work.

That's his glory. And I just get to be used as an instrument and we've got to be very careful.

I have to be very careful to recognize I'm just an instrument and, you know, if I fall off South Mountain sometime this week when

I'm riding down about 32 miles per hour, God's kingdom's going to keep right on going and, you know,

I'm not, you know, that's just the way it is and it does help to give some joy in the midst of, I think, very recognizable and understandable frustration, but at the same time, there's got to be a balance or you can become, as you said, somewhat, you know, skeptical and cynical about the whole thing.

That's right and we actually deny our theology whenever we start getting angry and embittered toward those who disagree with us.

I'm reminded of a story by John Newton when he said that Calvinists who go around trying to bang people over the head to convince them of Calvinism would be like blind

Bartimaeus who went around with his cane after he was given sight hitting other blind men for being blind, beating them up.

We can't do that. Exactly. That's an excellent, I hadn't even thought of it along those lines, but that's right.

We cannot force feed grace. You cannot force someone to see the grace of God. That is a gracious act of God himself and so we have to be careful.

I tried to provide some, what I hope are some words of wisdom on your blog in the comments section to the

Liberty University students and to try to encourage them. I do feel very badly about those who are looking forward to that and we're looking forward to meeting us and talking with us.

I want to be an encouragement to them and I think at least some, there is a possibility that some of the contacts will eventually lead to some opportunities in that area.

I mean, certainly you've had the founders meeting in Lynchburg in the past. What year was that?

Do you remember? It was three or four years running, but I forget. Oh, was it? Okay, because I spoke there with Mark Dever and Bruce Ware and I was -

I think that was last year. Was it? Okay. And you have heard the story about my introduction there, didn't you?

I don't know that I did. Oh my goodness. It was the single most unusual introduction before I spoke that I've ever experienced in the entirety of my adult life.

Bruce Ware buried his head in his hands. I get there, the pastor gets up and if you recall, used to on my bio page,

I used to have, it started off with all these nasty things that have been said about me by Roman Catholics, Mormons, King James only advocates, you know, it had

Gail Ripplinger's, I'm a serial soul killer and a rude, crude heretic and, you know, all just this nasty stuff.

And then it would transition into some sort of nice stuff and then it went into the bio part. Well, the pastor gets up and he starts reading that and that's not the first time that that happened.

You know, it's on your website, so it's going to get used. But what he did is he just went down to the last nasty thing, stopped and said, here's

James White. And it was just, it was just silence. The whole place was like, you're kidding.

And he leaves the pulpit. I got to get up there and start speaking. And I don't think I ever regained balance.

It was just like, whoa, okay. So I guess I have you to blame for that, right? Why not?

Well, yeah, go ahead. Just stand in line. That's right. We're all ready for it. So, well, anyway, folks, if you have wanted to talk with, well, everybody gets an opportunity to talk with me.

That's why they all wait till you're on because I'm boring. And but if you want to talk with the world -famous

Tom Askell, please try to ask any stumping questions about true

Eastern seaboard foliage, because I don't get the feeling he's actually been doing quite the level of study in that area that he does in others.

But 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number to join us on the program today.

I see a line open. So some of you are just fascinated by our witty repartee here.

So let's go ahead and start. Taking some of our phone calls, let's talk with Shane.

Hi, Shane, how you doing? Hey, James, doing great. I'm the one Tom referred to the last time as the backslidden

Baptist. I turned Presbyterian. Oh. And I'm the one who got to quit talking like this.

Well, Shane, I just want you to know that I'm doing a debate on baptism on this Thursday. So your restoration is at hand.

I'm praying for yours. No, I met you down at Good Shepherd Nashville a few years ago when you preached there with David Phil.

Right. But hey. Who is a Presbyterian who allowed me to preach? I just want to make sure that everybody caught that.

Right, man. So but I do want to thank you all for all you're doing in this.

And I think what's been most discouraging for me is just to really see from beginning to end how this is more than anything.

The result of this happening is just someone realizing, oh, this is how you do a debate. OK, I really don't know what

I'm talking about now. And for him to quote Dave Hunt proves that he's probably not very well read on the issue anyway.

But especially when I first heard the sermon of being called a hypercalvinist, I'm like, yeah, he really doesn't know what he's talking about.

And I guess for me, I'm kind of like what you're saying is that I kind of have to keep my temper down, too, because I like the

Bartimaeus thing that Tom said. But I mean, do you think that if he were to call you back, you would go ahead and try to schedule another debate if it is in a neutral setting?

Well, remember, I need to make this clear. Dr. Kanner has, I think,

Michael Fallon has mentioned five challenges, invitations to Dr.

Kanner. He has one right now that, to my knowledge, he is simply refusing to respond to.

We know he's responding to emails because lots and lots of folks have gotten lots and lots of emails. But Mike came to me and said,

OK, look, obviously, there's a trust issue here. This has fallen apart. Look, I have already, for our conference, the public crimes conference in Orlando, I already have a room.

And we already have the space. We already have the location. You're already going to have the cameras and everything there for the

Spong debate. It's all set up. This is perfect. All Ergon Kanner has to do is come to Orlando.

And you can have the debate. And it can be videotaped. And it's just the two of you.

And that way, it's easier. I mean, Tom's going to be there too. But we wouldn't go two on one or something like that.

Just be Ergon and myself. And you can have the debate on the subject. And it can be videotaped.

He'll be given a videotape. He can give it the liberty to distribute, as they wish, the whole nine yards. And so far, there has been no response to that.

And included in that invitation has been the possibility of doing it next, I believe,

October for our 2007 cruise up in the

Seattle area. And so I remain open, because I think this is a vital issue.

I continue to believe that when you sit down in front of an audience and you have two people who will go to the word of God and interact in a meaningful fashion, that the doctrines of grace will shine forth with clarity.

Because it is the only consistent way of reading all of the inspired word. And if we honor

God's word as being a total revelation that God has revealed himself in his word, if we are willing to look at everything that it has to say,

I am firmly convinced that if we were to sit down with John 6 and John 10 and Romans 8 and 9 and we were to look at the things that Ergin Kanner has said, that the results would be very, very, very, very clear.

And we continue to make available to him an opportunity to prove me wrong.

One side has all the documented evidence in the world that we can treat people fairly, that we will not change the rules in the last second or in the last two weeks.

And I can point you to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics and Muslims and Jesus Seminar scholars who will testify that they were treated fairly, that they were provided with what they were told they were provided with, that there were no changes, there was no playing around with stuff.

And the other side can't provide that kind of documentation in regards to the particular situation that just took place.

Well, excuse me for interrupting, but what I don't understand, and maybe there is some underlying thing, what

I can't seem to understand is why they would go to such great lengths to put on a debate it doesn't even look like they feel comfortable they can do unless it's set up and tailor -made to them and they can change on a dime what they wanted to do.

I mean, it almost has looked as though, because from watching him in the past when he's preached sermons, he gets people hyped up, he likes to yell, he likes to stomp, he likes to get political in the pulpit, he likes to make cute remarks.

And I think, do you think that it might be a situation where he would be roped in on a one -on -one debate and he can't do that and get out of it?

It's hard to say. There's one thing is for certain, and I point this out in my last blog article. One of the problems that we have here is that we had two fundamentally different views of what debate is supposed to be and why you even do theological debate.

And listening to the descriptions of scholastic debate, talking 350 to 400 words per minute.

Tom, I'm sorry, brother, but if you ever try that, you're doomed. Is Tom still there?

Yeah, I'm here. Okay, I lost you there. I was just going to say, if fast talking is the standard, brother, don't go that direction.

Ain't going to work. No, it ain't going to happen. And if honestly, if what they were thinking initially was that you could keep it short enough and keep the comments short enough that we couldn't do much in the way of damage as to actually saying a whole lot, and the other side could just do the emotional soundbite type thing.

See, that's why we were pushing for cross -examination. Cross -examination, if it's done properly, brings these issues out.

You can't soundbite a direct question. You can dodge it, but the other guy now has the opportunity of redirecting it.

And so, honestly, if you're confident that what you believe is true,

I don't see any reason why you would ever avoid that kind of a meaningful interaction.

And that's what we've been seeking. That's what we continue to seek. As to what their motivations were, look, honestly, we can't second guess that kind of thing.

There's all sorts of speculation going on. I don't know that it's overly useful, unless, of course, you're someone who's associated with Liberty and you're very concerned that the president of your seminary is not exactly encouraging people to think that at the seminary, there is going to be an encouragement to think with clarity, with accuracy, to represent other positions fairly.

The people at the top have to represent the... Any seminary, you have a spectrum of people teaching under you.

There's no seminary that I know of that's absolutely lockstep and everybody believes exactly the same thing.

That's just not the way it is. And the president has the difficulty, which is why I'd never want to be one, of representing that spectrum.

And it just doesn't seem to me that Ergin Kanner wants to represent that spectrum and allow for any kind of variation in perspective.

And that's not overly encouraging. So I don't know. Well, I'm just very upset because I'm not going to get my book signed now.

Well, which book did you want signed? I've got all of them. Oh, well, you have all of Tom's books.

I'm sure Tom will sign them anytime. Tom Askew, but I got some JW and I don't mean Jehovah's Witnesses on the shelf.

But hey, I just... And one quick thing real quick. I did email Ergin and let him know not to get upset and all in arms because of the reform community because nobody is really taking him seriously anyway.

Ouch. Well, okay. But that's my one jab and I'm sorry.

But James, we do pray for you. And Tom, thanks for your involvement with the founders and everything.

Because like I said, I did grow up SBC and very proud of my Baptist heritage. But don't disagree on that one issue now.

It's two. Let's not forget the church government issue. That sort of comes up too. Well, they can be forgiven for that.

Hey, thank you guys. Thanks. All right. There's Shane.

And like I said, hey, this coming Tuesday, it's interesting because this is something that you would have a lot of interest in as well, the debate on baptism between myself and Bill Shishko.

Because Bill has read, for example, Fred Malone and Sam Waldron and issues of the

RBTR and of course Jewett and all the books that are part and parcel of the baptism debate.

So he is well aware of the argumentation. And so, and I'm certainly familiar with their side and have listened very carefully to Bill's presentations as well.

And that's what makes for a good debate. Yeah, I think that'd be great. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to it.

And yet here, the irony is though, let's be honest, there is an irony here.

It is going to be strongly emphasized. And I was listening to the debate that took place between Fred Malone and Dr.

Strimple. Did you hear that one? At Westminster a few years ago? No, I did not hear that.

I talked to Fred about it afterwards. But I didn't hear it. Very good debate. It took place Westminster in Escondido. And I, in fact,

I'm not sure if you were, this had debated Dr. Strimple on the same subject. In fact, he made reference to that debate in the debate he had with Fred Malone.

And so he's done the debate a number of times, but both sides emphasized very strongly the intercollegiate intramural nature of that debate.

They accept each other as brothers in Christ. We come to a common Lord and a common desire to honor his word.

And that's what we're going to be doing a week from Thursday between myself and Bill Shishko. Bill, if you're not familiar with him, a major name in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and he has moderated the last four or five debates we've done on Long Island in the

Great Debate Series. And I can guarantee you, if you want strict time considerations, the last debate we did with Bill Shishko as the moderator was supposed to finish at 11 o 'clock and it finished at 10 .59

.52. So when you can wrap an entire debate up within eight seconds of your assigned time, he rules with an iron hand.

So I know that I'm not gonna be able to go one second past my timeframes. But here's going to be an example where there is more, you would think, on one level that separates

Bill and I than should separate myself and Ergin Kanner.

And yet, in reality, Bill's gonna call me his brother and Ergin wouldn't.

And there's no rancor between Bill and I. And we're both gonna say we confess the same

Lord and the same gospel. And we're united in our opposition to all these things. And we're gonna go the word of God.

And yet, when I try to have that kind of a conversation in this context, it doesn't happen. And that is part of what is exceptionally frustrating.

It just shouldn't be that way. Well, I agree with you. I think it is reflective of the real mess that we are in, in our day, in broader evangelicalism, certainly within the broader

Baptist life or Southern Baptist life. I've said for years, and I think, I'm not accusing anyone here of not being

Christian. I want to be very careful in the way I say this. But I think what we've seen here is further evidence of the very concerns that I've been harping on.

Is our problem is not that we have lost Calvinism and Arminianism is predominant.

Our problem is that we've lost biblical Christianity. And we don't know what it means to be

Christian anymore. And that's true, not just doctrinally. It is true ecclesiologically in our churches.

It's also true ethically in the way we conduct ourselves. And there are just a lot of things going on today in the name of Christianity that have nothing to do with the biblical

Christ, and they do not honor him. And it's time for us to stand up and say that. Well, and you tried to say that, especially on an issue that I know is dear to your heart, but it flows from exactly what we just said.

You tried to say that in the convention as far as the necessity, the biblical...

You can't look at the New Testament and think that there is not such a thing as discipline in the church of Christ, in the body of Christ.

It's there. You've got to rip entire sections of 2 Corinthians out. And 1

John 2 doesn't make any sense when it says they went out from us. So it might be demonstrated they're not truly of us. There's gotta be some in and out in those types of situations.

And yet in our churches today, in many churches, I'll have to say, not in my church, but in many churches, there is no concern for holiness.

There is no concern for discipline. And you tried to raise that issue and didn't quite get as far as you had hoped.

No, I didn't. That's a kind way to put that. I got shot down rather quickly. But at least it got some dialogue started and God willing, that dialogue will continue.

In fact, I know of at least one, maybe two state conventions where that resolution or a form of it is being introduced this fall.

And I think we will certainly hear more about it. I plan to introduce it again next year if nobody else does. Well, yeah, keep at it.

There's no way to... But you see, honestly, there is far more in the

New Testament about God's freedom in salvation and his self -glorifying in salvation than there is about church discipline.

And if we can't get folks to dialogue about what's so central in so many books in a didactic way, that is related to why it's next to impossible to get people to dialogue about these other issues.

And it all goes together. Practice and theology, you cannot separate them from one another. And if you've got a shallow theology, a very simplistic theology, that doesn't give you enough of a foundation to have a meaningful church life.

It just, it's not there. Exactly. And that's where my great concern is. I think that we have lost the gospel and that we are in danger of losing biblical

Christianity in the name of a lot that goes on under the flag of evangelicalism. Oh, there's no question.

But I now refer to it as post -evangelicalism. I mean, the original people who defined that term and gave that term meaning,

I don't think would recognize the vast majority of what takes place in its name today. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number for you to comment, to get in touch with myself and Dr.

Tom Askell. We're discussing a whole host of things, including, well, basically

Southern Baptist issues, the doctrines of grace, what debates are supposed to be about. And of course, by agreement signed by both of us, and hence

I'm keeping my word, fall foliage. And so with that in mind, let's talk with Josh in Louisville.

Hi, Josh. Hi, good to talk with you all. How are you doing? Good, great. Glad to hear you guys laughing about this entire issue.

Hopefully not laughing about it, but my life hasn't come to a grinding halt because I'm not gonna be in Lynchburg next week.

Right, it's just good to hear you all in good spirits and discussing this with such good attitude and good character.

I can imagine for both of you personally that it's very frustrating as it is for all of us, but I think it's a good example for us students and others who are just kind of sitting back watching this thing to see the model that you guys have really throughout the whole time have just been faithful and tried your best to get this thing to happen.

But I was glad both of you enjoyed the little promotional video. Yeah, I was gonna ask if that was you. This is the same

Josh. That was hilarious. Yeah. That took some time.

Yeah, you needed, if you'd like, I'd be happy to send you some updated ones. My goodness. Well, I couldn't find your most recent glamour shots out online.

Well, that's why I said I'd have to send them to you. And in fact, Lord willing, in fact,

Josh, you need to pray about this. And Tom has told me he is very concerned about this as well because I know

Tom very well and he's very much looking forward to this. But I am very, very concerned that prior to the

Pulp A Crimes conference and cruise, are you laughing, Tom? Why would you be laughing?

I think I know where you're going. Yeah, I'm very, very concerned. That my full Highland kilt is not gonna arrive from Glasgow.

And Tom, I know, may not even come to the conference if I do not promise to show up in my kilt.

And the neat thing about going on cruises is that they have these formal nights and there's photographers everywhere.

And I've got to have my kilt so that I can get those pictures taken. And then once I get them,

Josh, I'll be happy to send them to you. The only problem is I cannot take my claymore on board.

They will not allow a five -foot sword on the ship for some odd reason. But once I get them,

I'll be happy to provide them to you. Well, then I could just edit the video. I just hate that mine and your all's work is in vain after all, anyways.

Well, I don't think yours was. I'm sorry. I think you came out on the best end of this one, personally.

Now, Josh - Well, it was some of the best clips. In fact, I wanted to ask you all if the sermon, part of what was in the video, from the sermon he preached at Thomas Road back in March or April that you responded to, has anyone been able to figure out what he meant when he said that when we all get to heaven, he'll be standing on a tree stump on his hands shouting that Christ died for all?

No. I'm sorry? Standing on the top of his hands. Yes. I've tried to picture that and I've not been able to figure it out.

Something tells me that Brother Kanner experienced at that point in time what speakers call hypoxia.

You've been working a bit too hard. You're getting everybody riled up and unfortunately, the adrenaline overruns the speech centers of your brain and you know what you're supposed to be saying but you get your tongue in front of your eye teeth and can't see what you're saying and the whole thing comes out all upside down and backwards.

But you can't stop at that point. If this is the end of your sermon and I would imagine at Thomas Road there's a big old clock down front because it's televised and you see it counting down and you've got seven seconds.

Now at seven seconds, you don't have time to go and say, I didn't mean to say that. Let's try it again and rev them all back up.

So you just keep on going. So something tells me I've experienced it. Everybody who's ever spoken has experienced something similar to it and I think that's where it went.

Yep. Well, the whole thing was crazy to me about it, this whole situation is that if Ergin and those of his persuasion would just go back and take the time to read and I think,

Dr. Askley, you mentioned earlier I think about, you know, these are scholars that you're dealing with.

You know, they can do this. They can go back and read what has been written. They can go back and listen to your programs where you've responded to these very things just months ago and years back but both of you have addressed these issues thoroughly.

There's an entire issue of the Founder's Journal titled Calvinism, Evangelism, and Founder's Ministries back from summer of 2001 where you addressed these issues as they relate to evangelism and the goals of Founder's Ministries and another journal from probably 10 years ago,

Dr. Tom Nettles answers the question, are Calvinists hyper? You know, they could go back and read these things yet they refuse to or they, or either that or we're dealing with, you know, dishonesty and that's a serious matter.

Well, Josh, the good news about all this is that people like you who are students or people who just have a real interest in this that aren't formally studying anywhere no longer have to be dependent upon the so -called scholars of our day.

There's information available. You can research it yourself. You can read with your own eyes. You can check the sources yourself and determine whether or not what you're hearing from these havens of supposed scholarship is true and when it's not true, it just simply exposes that sin didn't skip over the academies as it infiltrated the world.

That unfortunately is very true and it is true that we live in a generation that has more access to more information than any preceding generation which in some cases only makes us all the more culpable

I would actually argue but still the access to information is not nearly as restricted as it once was and so my confidence is that, you know, it's sort of like we used to go out to, we still go out to Mesa, Arizona during the

LDS Easter pageant and we'll stand right on the street corners and they'll have, you know, 100, 120 ,000 people attend over the whole course of this

Easter pageant and there's a small group of us and we stand out there and, you know, most everybody just passes us by and ignores us like we don't even exist but we distribute literature and we have opportunities of conversation and I've said for many, many years to those who are having those witnessing situations, sometimes the people you're talking to can become very animated, can become very unhappy about what it is that you're saying and I've tried to impress upon people even when people get personal and things like that,

I've tried to say, you know what, you never know who is watching your conversation from afar.

I remember very clearly one night I had a very heated guy in my face and I just, I tried to, I stayed calm,

I stayed focused and after that guy left and there had been a number of conversations that night, this guy comes walking over and he had been leaning up against a palm tree about 10 feet away for quite some time and he came up to me at the end of the evening and he said, you know,

I've been watching you all night long and I want to thank you for the attitude.

I disagree with you but I want to thank you for the attitude that you had and that's illustrative to me of the fact that Tom and I don't know everyone who's watching.

We can only gauge by people who write to us and as Rich has said, I think today we got our first negative email.

Everything had been positive, supportive and the whole nine yards up to this point in time and to be honest with you, given how thoroughly we've documented everything, it's difficult for me to understand how any rational person can actually examine all the information and come to any different conclusions but then again, that's also how

I feel about the issues of the doctrines of grace. I mean, if you just honestly allow for everything that the

Bible asks us to say, I mean, I have an atheist, a rank atheist, a writer from atheist books years and years ago.

I was on a radio program, Tom Likas' radio program. If you know who Tom Likas is, he's a rather well -known shock jock across the

United States. I was on his program with this atheist and the atheist in his book admitted that if you just read the

Bible and you just accept what the Bible has to say, it clearly teaches that God is sovereign over all things and that he elects a certain people into salvation and he justly punishes.

I mean, he just reading the Bible as an atheist said, well, that's obvious. That's what it's saying. I mean, how can you get around that?

And so, we don't know who's watching but the information is there and my hope is that there are

Liberty University students who have quite honestly been given traditions and maybe they've just come from a place where everyone they've ever heard of, all of their leaders over the course of their lives have just bad mouthed what they call

Calvinism or hyper -Calvinism, whatever they want to call it and they've heard about this and they have access to the internet and they use that thing called

Google or Ask or whatever and if you do, it's not difficult to track this information down.

It's not difficult to find this stuff and we've put the documentation out there. Anybody who reads it, they're going to go, wait a minute, why would anyone have to behave this way if there really isn't anything to this at all?

It should have been a slam dunk. It should have been quite easy to address these issues and they start listening and they start listening to the webcast and they start reading the books and we've met so many people who over the years, that's exactly the process that they went through and they've come to the conclusion, you know what,

I need to believe everything that the Word of God has to say and sometimes it's costly. I bet you Tom has more stories than I do about how costly it can be for people to come to that recognition but it's well worth it because to believe

God's truth is to have a treasure that the world can't take away. Amen. That's very true. Well, I hope more positive comes out of this.

Thank you for all you guys are doing. Okay, thanks, Josh. Let's get you another call. All right. Thank you. Bye -bye. 877 -753 -3341 is the toll -free phone number, 877 -753 -3341.

You know, I forget, it was in Missouri.

It was in St. Louis. St. Louis was the last time that I spoke at a founders meeting and I remember talking with a young man, a seminary graduate, and just the hurt in his eyes with his young wife because so many come out thinking that as long as you're sincere in sharing with your people the results of what you're finding in the

Word of God, that everyone's going to share your sincerity, everyone is going to accept that and have the same attitude you have that we need to search the scriptures.

And unfortunately, it's that look that comes from discovering that that's not necessarily the case in a lot of churches.

Now, you probably can multiply that story so many times that you have trouble even remembering a single face anymore because you've heard that so many times.

Would that be a fair statement? Oh, absolutely. And it's just, I've started over the last 10 years really talking about a reformational or reformation mindset that we've got to have for ministry today.

Ours is a day of reforming ministry if you're going to be faithful to scriptures because so much of the ministry has been distorted and perverted away from biblical

Christianity. And the Bible itself warns us of this. And one of the most haunting passages

I know for pastors in 2 Timothy 4 when Paul is just adamant to Timothy to preach the

Word and all of chapter 3 sets the context where he says things are just going to be so bad.

There are going to be seasons and I don't think he's talking about the last 7 years before Jesus returns. But in the latter days there are going to be these seasons of intense difficulty and people are just going to be living shamefully and traitors and they're going to be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

And so what's the antidote? The antidote in chapter 4 is preach the Word and then he gives that reason.

Why? Because the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine. And what haunts me is that word they.

Who's he talking about? He's talking about people in the church. In the church. And that's the day we're in. We're in this type of season and men who are headed toward pastoral ministry must have their eyes open.

They need to get rid of every ounce of naivete. Realize we're in a fight and if God puts you in an established church you must go in with a heart that's full of love and joy and discernment and wisdom and realize that this has been neglected most likely.

There's been a lot of spiritual theological neglect here for at least a generation or two and it's not going to be righted apart from real hardship.

I had a seminary administrator say one time, our graduates are not going to have the kind of problems that you founders guys have in your churches because we're just going to teach them to teach the

Word and preach the Word and the Word's going to change everything and there won't be fights. I just laughed.

I said spoken like a man who's never really pastored. My goodness, no kidding. The same text says they will heap up for themselves teachers after their own desires.

If you don't realize that the people in the church have desires for what they want to hear from the pulpit, you haven't been involved in preaching the

Word of God and the first time that poor boy gets up there and he sees the faces of men who are displeased with what he's saying, oh man, if you don't know that's coming it can you can end up in a different line of work awful fast and that's a shame.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's we're in a day that requires a reforming mindset.

And it's a reforming mindset that also keeps in mind to me one of the most we got another call we need to get to real quick but to me one of the most frightening and this is in the

Pulpit Crimes book one of those frightening verses that I have it's probably similar to your understanding there of Timothy but there is a phrase in first Corinthians chapter one and it's said in passing but then it's expanded upon it becomes really the foundation for verses 18 and following but in verse 17 of first Corinthians 1 for Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel not with wisdom words

Sophia Lagu so that the cross of Christ would not be emptied made void emptied of its power.

Right. I mean when and so many of our seminarians are being taught to use all these unbiblical and ungodly methodologies to try to make up for where evidently the

Holy Spirit's falling down and not doing his job. And I can't avoid thinking this is emptying the cross of Christ of its power.

Is it any shock then that we have churches filled with people who have no concern for godliness they have no concern for the glory of Christ Christianity is just something you do on Sunday morning and maybe if you're feeling really particularly spiritual on Wednesday evening but the idea of it impacting your relationships your thoughts your worldview is as foreign to so many people because as it said what you win them with is what you win them to and if you're going to use a gospel that is an anemic imitation of the original it's going to create the kind of church we see around us today.

That's right and in many respects it is not Christian. No it's not. All right let's sneak another caller in here real quick let's talk with Paul.

Hi Paul. Hello. How are you doing sir? I'm doing very good Dr. White. Hey I just wanted to give a thanks to Dr.

Ascol and all of his work with Founders. I myself am an SBC pastor and really appreciate everything he's done.

Thank you brother. Sorry to hear that this debate didn't go off though. My goodness. You know obviously okay this is the the brouhaha over the last few days but I have been looking forward to a lot of that because I have a young lady that I'm acquainted with that has been to my church is a student at Liberty and when back last winter when if you recall when was around January or February that it was initially scheduled and then then

Cantor's wouldn't work it out or something of that nature. She's a student of Dr. Cantor's and went to him and said why won't you debate the

Calvinist? Well believe me I fully understand the frustration and that's why we've put the information out there so that anyone who wants to know honestly

I posted just a little while ago I don't know if you've seen my blog in the past hour or so but Angel Contreras put together a little cartoon and one of the reasons

I posted it is that when people ask me why didn't you go through with it when things were changed only two weeks less than two weeks out my answer would be because I'd be as foolish as Charlie Brown trusting

Lucy to kick the football again okay? I saw that and kudos to Angel that is my desktop right now

I loved it I'll tell you

Angel's is just incredible you should see some of the stuff he sends me that doesn't get posted on my blog because I just love the insight he has he captures the essence of what's going on and I never would have thought of that see

Angel's mind really works very differently than all the rest of ours does and I never would have thought about that but it's exactly the point

I mean it's like trust me go ahead come on sure every other time you've done this you've ended up on your back but this is the one time believe me and that's what

I would have been up against that's what we both would have been up against and I'm just not going to do it so anyway it certainly looks that way

I wanted to pick up on something that was very encouraged by what Dr.

Ascol was speaking of in that passage earlier something that I posted in the channel earlier is really akin to that when my goodness when

Dr. Cantor makes the assertion that Calvinism guts churches and you know sometimes it does gut churches and for those of us who are pastoring churches where we're seeing some of our numbers decline that can be a very discouraging thing however what it does it guts them of unbelievers and people who really don't want to honor the testimony of the word of God consistently and we have to take encouragement from that and I just wanted to stop in and say thank you to Brother Ascol for going over that it gave a good deal of encouragement to me this afternoon okay well thank you very much

Paul all right God bless all right God bless thank you bye -bye real quickly Tom and I will take as much time as you want we can go a little bit over we have to but how do you address

I mean what he just raised is it's vitally important it's part and parcel of what you've been talking about but it is one of the main clubs that is used against the

Founders Movement is if you're trying to talk with someone who thinks that the success of the church is defined on graphs and charts and particular roles and numbers how do you get through that?

how do you deal with that? well there's two or three things that I try to get on the table for discussion one is let's do statistical analysis but let's do honest statistical analysis

I've done that on some of the megachurches and some of the megachurch ministries that have been held up as examples for us

I did that on my blog I didn't name the churches but I went from their own stated records and it was appalling absolutely appalling baptizing thousands over the course of three to four to five years showing a net gain in the negatives or showing a net gain of a hundred people now something's horribly wrong with that even one of the men that used to work or was an expert in follow -up

I think was his title for the North American Mission Board said that from his own studies and experiences that in such fast -growing churches he discovered less than one in ten of those who were baptized showed any active involvement the following year so if we're going to do statistical analysis let's be honest and look beyond the surface of what's put out there however as you and I both know statistics don't tell the whole story my goodness if that were the case then we ought to all be applauding the

Mormons and Roman Catholics and everybody else I mean so we know that on its face that's not accurate

I'm just finishing up preaching through Jeremiah in our church and Jeremiah's calling is pretty sober we're reading through it on Sunday nights and I introduced the passage

Sunday night saying well we have here Jeremiah continuing his demonstration he read how to win friends and influence people

I mean it's get him out of the stocks what does he do go right back at it you're all doomed isn't it lovely and God told him

I'm calling you to root out pull down destroy throw down build and plant six things four of them negative only two of them positive and we're in that day and so man we want our churches to grow we want to see people genuinely converted and anybody that can be satisfied with their church not seeing people converted has a real problem we ought to be grieved and brokenhearted and crying out to God but realizing that we cannot manufacture that which

God alone can do we must do what can be done we cannot do what must be done and if we keep that clear

God helps us and empowers us to be as bold and as evangelistic as we want to be and ought to be the results belong to him and I don't think we ought to bear the false guilt of well things are going down but neither should we be complacent and say well it's just a hard day and that's the way things are well

I think that's something that people biblically should fear the thing they should fear more than a lack of conversions is the existence of false conversions because there is nothing more difficult to deal with than a religious hypocrite and when we by our programs and by our lack of patience and our lack of a biblically balanced understanding of ministry create the wetted unregenerate we are going to answer for that we're going to answer for that and one of the most evangelistic evangelistically powerful tools that God has given to us is the church and we've lost that in our day when the church is being the church it has a powerful attractiveness about it not necessarily where everybody wants to just jump in and participate that didn't happen in Acts but even those who feared did so with deep respect and the

Lord added to that we've lost the evangelistic quality and character of the church because our churches look so much like the world exactly the distinguishing line between them is blurred exactly no question about it well

Tom thank you very much for taking your time out of your day today to be with us and I really hope that other than seeing you there in Florida that as far as this particular situation goes until another opportunity comes up that I don't know about you but I know you've got to finish you promised a second part to your thoughts about it

I've said about everything I know to say so I'm ready to be done too I do by the way give you permission to utilize

Angel's cartoon if you need it all right thanks

Tom God bless thank you all right thank you for being with us all right everyone thank you very much for joining us on the

Dividing Line today we will be back Thursday afternoon Lord willing right here see you then God bless four six zero two or write us at p .o

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that's a -o -m -i -n dot o -r -g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again this