Cessationist Documentary: What This Is and How You Can Help!

Justin Peters

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00:06

Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast and I'm doing just a little bit of an intro here before I get to the main part of our time together today and To let you know what this is about.

00:23

I'm doing an interview with the two co -producers of an upcoming documentary

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Entitled cessationist. I was interviewed for this documentary as was Jim Osman You'll see him in the in the as we get into the meat of the matter here

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As was Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Gabe Hughes a number of other men

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Very solid Joel Beakey doctrinally solid man Josh Bice was as well a number of a number of folks

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I shouldn't start naming cause I'll forget some but at any rate this is a really Exciting project and I'm honored to be a part of it it will be

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I believe a tour de force for the biblical position of cessationism and I want to let you know about it and up front here on the on the beginning part to ask for your support there's a lot a lot that goes into making a documentary and a lot of expenses and Those of you who have followed my channel for any amount of time, you know

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That I have never asked for money for myself or for my ministry on my youtube channel

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Not once have I done that there's just been two or three videos where I've asked some people to support to support a worthy cause a family who lost their their father and husband some months ago and The writing project of Conrad and Bayway in Africa and the work they're doing

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So but I've never asked for money for myself, and I'm still not here But I would like to ask for your support for this

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Documentary cessationist there is a Kickstarter program Underway right now and the link to that is down below there in the description.

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So Anyway, I mentioned the Kickstarter program in this episode

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But it's towards the end of the video. And so I know a lot of people will start watching it So at any rate please watch this interview and If after watching the interview, this is something that you would would like to support

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It would be greatly greatly appreciated. My ministry has supported this not a dime of this is going to me in fact this is outflow from my ministry to to this project because I do believe

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I really believe that this will be a Tremendous tool and by God's grace It will be one that he will use in the lives of many people for many years to come

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So, all right, dear ones with that by way of introduction, let's go to the interview and It is my privilege today to introduce you or if not introducing necessarily give you a little bit more information about this new documentary entitled cessationist

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I'm really excited about this and I am joined today by David Lovi and Tim Cannon who are brothers.

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Tell me your your titles or the is related to the documentary Right now we're the co -producers of the film

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Yeah, we're still we're still working working out all the titles for it though.

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Okay. All right So the co -producers of the film and also Jim Osman my friend and pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho So David and Tim interviewed

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Jim and myself for this documentary cessationist as well as a number of other names that you are likely familiar with Phil Johnson Conrad and Bayway a number of others

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We'll talk some more about that But I wanted I want you to hear from from David and from Tim and they're gonna tell us more about this documentary

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What they're going to do with it. When's it going to come out all this kind of stuff. So David Tim Jim as well.

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Thank you brothers for joining me Yeah, very welcome. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us.

04:19

Yeah. Yeah, so we wanted to make way Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm sorry.

04:25

Go ahead. Take it away Well, actually, you know what Tim if you would like to talk about What we were originally going to do before we started making this film yeah, so so Real briefly

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I met David at together for the gospel 2018 when he worked for the Martin Lloyd -Jones

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Trust board and He had just come off the heels of working on logic on fire the life and legacy of dr

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Martin Lloyd -Jones and I kind of became friends with him. We hit it off and I said hey

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I just kept hounding him. We need to make another movie and he said, okay What do you want to make a movie about and it?

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Turns out we were gonna make a film about Beth and Lloyd -Jones the wife of the doctor and it would be a sort of sequel and With kovat it kind of put everything to a halt with travel.

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Everything was locked down in Wales and Scotland and England, so we kind of had to regroup and we said well

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What do we want to make a film about and we picked the highly controversial topic of cessationism?

05:32

Yeah Well good choice because this is a This is an issue it's you're kind of behind the eight ball a little bit in a sense just with the name because cessationist has kind of a you know,

05:45

I guess kind of a Down sounding name, you know, something is seized and but But once we talk about what it really is and what it means

05:57

In people's lives their sanctification. I think this will be a tremendously Impactful documentary,

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I'm very excited about it. I think it'll be a great help to a lot of people and David what what would you like to share with our viewers about about this film?

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Yeah, so I first became Interested in Pneumatology, I mean obviously as as a

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Christian we have to be interested in pneumatology or the study of the

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Holy Spirit But I became really interested in this topic after I became a pastor of an evangelical free church north of Chicago about 40 miles north of Chicago and actually, right when

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I first became the pastor I Started a book club.

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We called it the brown bag book club And I wanted to introduce the people in the church to great works in Church history

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So we started reading JC Riles old paths and and FW Krumacher's the suffering

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Savior and we read Thomas Boston's human nature in its fourfold state and all with a group of mostly retired people who are not typically the

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Demographic you would think that that would be interested in you know, learning about really deep

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Theological issues, but boy they really loved it Well when

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I had the idea to start that book club There was a lady in the church who came up to me and and asked when are we going to read?

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Good morning, Holy Spirit by Benny him and I I thought at first I thought she was just joking but but she wasn't and and Then I realized with some of the song choices that the church had been making prior to me getting there to that they were playing

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Hillsong and Bethel music and Jesus culture and all of that and and I became a

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Christian Relatively later on in my life when I when I was 22 years old, so I didn't have much experience with those kind of Contemporary Christian music.

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I thought it was all just kind of corny sounding honestly but then when I started listening to to the lyrics of those songs and Something is really off with this music and a lady in the church came up to me very soon after I became the pastor there and she gave me this thick packet of Information she had gathered about Hillsong Jesus culture

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Bill Johnson who I'd never heard of before and and saying how her daughter was

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Sucked in by that music into Bethel Church and she left

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Chicago moved to California to join that to join that church and it's that that experience of reading what this faithful lady had compiled about like actually this is not just a difference of minor minor theological issue is this is a different a

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Different person they're they're talking about a different person than the

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Bible describes as who the Holy Spirit is and and it set me on the path to really dig deep and and study these things and I Had gone into being a pastor as a kind of an open but cautious Person when it came to the

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Miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. Like I don't know. I don't want to limit God But I but I don't know if if what is

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What calls itself tongues or or the gift of healing is really real or not?

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I'm just I'm just cautious about it. And the reason why is because I felt like I didn't want to limit

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God but as I dug into Pneumatology deeper and and read some books on the subject

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And started doing Bible study on the subject I realized Actually that the charismatic position on the gifts miraculous gifts of the

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Holy Spirit is is just not Bearing out with facts today that though those those things that they claim are actually going on in the church

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Aren't really going on in the church And the reason is because those were the signs of Apostles and there are no more

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Apostles today and so it set me on a journey to Really become serious about pneumatology and when when the project fell through The far above Ruby's the life of Beth and Lloyd -Jones

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Which we hope to still make someday because that's actually a worthy film. I think needs to be made

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But when that fell through and Tim and I were talking about what else could we do? Immediately I think at the same time both of us thought what what if we made a film about biblical pneumatology?

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What does the Bible what if we made a positive case? for the doctrine of cessationism both historically and Biblically because I think a common theme we've seen since we dropped our

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Kickstarter is people saying there are absolutely no Arguments for the cessation of the miraculous gifts.

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Yeah, and that's simply not true. No, so so our our film is

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Going to be focused not as much on what we've heard is a critique of the low -hanging fruit of the false teachers, although we will talk about that because That like you said in the trailer that that we dropped that is the mainstream of the charismatic movement

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That's out there but we also want to truly interact with the arguments of people like Sam Storms and DA Carson and John Piper and and so on continuing and Wayne Grudem Continuationist today that though I respect those brothers and I think that they are brothers

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They are in the fringe of the charismatic movement but we want to we want to really interact with their arguments and show why we don't believe that they're real or true or even

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Biblically accurate right and that you know, that's why we wanted to get you two guys in the movie. Yeah Well, I think

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I speak for Jim when I say we're both honored to be a part of it excited about the project and Jim One of the one of the common misconceptions that I hear all the time

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From my charismatic critics is that oh, you're a cessationist. You don't believe in the work of the

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Holy Spirit You don't believe in the gifts. That's they just said you don't believe in the gifts. So maybe give us a

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Definition. What is cessationism actually and what is it not? Yeah, Phil Johnson addresses this in the video actually as he describes what cessationism is

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It's an it's a narrow view of the cessation of some of the miraculous or apostolic gifts

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So that would be the gift of tongues the gift of interpretation of tongues the gift of miracles and healing the gift of prophecy in its foretelling or revel the

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Tory sense not in its proclaiming or teaching sense, but in its foretelling revelatory sense and probably the gift of I Mentioned reputation of tongues already

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So those more miraculous and revelatory gifts the New Testament And of course we would say that those signs were given to the

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Apostles as an authentication of the ministry They were signs of an Apostle Paul calls Paul speaks of the signs of an

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Apostle in his letter to the Corinthians so we just simply believe that those gifts given to in the apostolic age for the purpose of authenticating the

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Recipients of divine revelation that those gifts are no longer given by the Holy Spirit that's the cessationist perspective and and as As most cessationist will point out anybody who is within Evangelicalism who believes that the

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Bible is the Word of God and that the canon is closed Really a cessationist because we're arguing the scriptures no longer being given

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We're arguing that there's no more no longer an apostolic office that the gift of Apostle is not being given and all of us have to recognize that the things being done in the

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New Testament are just not taking place today, and so even some of our reformed or Cautious, but what do you call it?

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Cautious open but cautious brethren even they would say well these gifts that are being manifested today are

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The same gift but a different manifestation of the gift and so even like for instance Wayne Grudem would say that the gift of prophecy today is not the same gift as it happened in the

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New Testament It's not a it's not a revelatory gift. It's a it's a personal gift It's not it's not inspired inerrant and authoritative in the way the scripture is so really what he's arguing is this is the cessationist perspective

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He's admitting that what happened in the New Testament is not happening today. That's that's basically the cessationist argument

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We don't believe that scripture being given today that it's being written today And therefore unless you believe that there's an open canon and that we should be adding books of Scripture Like Jesus calling and Jesus calling to and Jesus calling for doctors and Jesus calling

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But I was busy all of those books to the end of the New Testament and calling those Revelation unless you're gonna argue for that then you're really arguing for a cessationist perspective

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So everybody who believes that they're hearing from God today would say yeah, I hear from God But it's not inerrant and fallible and authoritative in which case they're what they're really saying is

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Yeah, I think these gifts are still kind of given but they're not the same as the New Testament And so then the different you're really arguing the heart of the cessationist perspective.

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Yeah. Yeah, exactly And so it's like when I hear people say this I always say

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Excuse me. I think even Michael Brown Michael Brown has said that he no longer that he doesn't believe that there are capital a apostles today

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I I don't know. He's kind of equivocated on that. But but anybody who would say okay

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We don't have apostles today like like John was like Peter was Like Paul was okay.

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We don't have those apostles Okay, well if if if you believe that then congratulations you're a cessationist

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You believe the gift of Apostle has ceased it's no longer given, right? And so we're simply saying that the

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Spirit is sovereign over the giving of those gifts and he gives the gifts according to his will And if it is his will to give a certain grouping of gifts revelatory gifts for a specific period of time and then not give those

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Gifts anymore. That's all the cessationist is arguing is that we're basically saying the Spirit of God is sovereign He gives the gifts according to his purpose and we're saying that those gifts have a purpose that purpose has been fulfilled and today

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We are the beneficiaries of that work of those gifts in the early church, and they're no longer necessary or needful

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And therefore they're no longer given. Yeah, that's right, right because there were gaps even in the

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Bible of the miraculous for hundreds and hundreds of years right between Moses and Elijah and Elijah to the

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New Testament Yeah So it's it's it's not like a gap in the miraculous is something strange that right seems like the miraculous

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Periods themselves were only very very temporary each time. Yeah Yeah, that's even in the

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New Testament era What you see is that in the New Testament the the miracles that took place and the revelatory

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Ministry of the Spirit that took place took place under the ministry and in connection to the ministry of the Apostles Your average everyday

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Christian was not writing scripture. Luke wrote in connection with Paul's ministry. Mark wrote in connection with Peter's ministry and then you have

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John and Peter and Paul and James James even himself writing in connection with apostolic ministry

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So these books were written under the auspices of the Apostles and the miracles were done by those who are either

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Apostles or those closely associated with apostolic ministry namely Philip and Barnabas and the men who were who are tied to the

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Apostles So there's no sense There's no justification in Scripture that your average run -of -the -mill

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Christian Woke up and was able to do miracles and see miracles in their day -to -day life and that these healings were going on all over the

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Place widespread in the early church. That's just not the record of the New Testament. That's right And I'm x 512 to your point

18:41

Jim It says now at the hands of the Apostles many signs and wonders were happening among the people

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So I mean that right there so signs and Luke is consistent you read through the book of Acts You'll see him use that same formula time and again at the hands of the

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Apostles many signs and wonders were taking place Paul and Barnabas testified of what God did through them It's specific

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Luke's argument all the way through the gospel of Acts is that these men particularly Paul and Barnabas were

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Designated as authentic spokesmen for Jesus Christ because they had the ability to do the same miracles that Jesus Christ did

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And so now today we have no need for those same gifts to be given That's right, that's right and That's not to say just to get back to your question

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That's not to say that God does not do miracles today or that God does not heal today what is the spirit of God is not active today because you know that this is the danger that Charismatics have they have at the same time a very over realized and under realized pneumatology

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It's over realized in the sense that everything to them is a miracle, right? If I pray for something and God provided it be by Providence, that's a miracle

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So that's the Spirit of God and every whisper every nudging every prompting every random thought that pops into their head

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That's the Spirit of God. It must be God speaking So that's an over realized pneumatology But at the same time when you take away all of those things and say no the

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Spirit of God is not speaking to you Then they demonstrate that they have a very under realized pneumatology and they said well What then do you think the

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Spirit of God does? And his cessation is we would say the Spirit of God is involved in Dozens of ways and everything that we do is working out

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Providence. He said he regenerates he sanctifies Encourages he strengthens he emboldens he works through his word.

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He helps preachers preach. He gives gifts to the body He's working through the gifts of administration The Spirit of God is constantly active in our lives

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But charismatics can't see any of that all if they don't see a miraculous thing They think the

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Spirit of God is not there And if you tell them the Spirit of God is not doing any of these radical signs, then they just say well

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What then do you think the Spirit of God does? Which shows you just how pathetic their view of the Holy Spirit is that that they don't see the

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Spirit of God at work in Almost any way unless it's some supernatural Spectacular thing that's supposed to you know, be very sensational.

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That's that's their view of the Holy Spirit He's just the one who pops up and does crazy things and if he's not doing crazy things, he's not doing anything

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Yeah, bingo. Bingo. I tell people as a cessationist I cede no ground to the charismatics in my pneumatology in my view of the

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Holy Spirit It is we would all argue and I think will be argued in this documentary That it is not we cessationists who have a low view of the

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Holy Spirit It's charismatics. It's it's word -faith New Apostolic Reformation folks who have a low

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View of the Holy Spirit of God and that is ground that is theological ground that what that that we need to reclaim

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And I hope this by God's grace this documentary will help us to reclaim Well, if you if you juxtapose this documentary with what came out a couple of years ago

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I believe it's called Holy Ghost Yeah, I think the guy's name is Darren something.

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They I saw it. I actually recently re -watched the trailer And he says in the trailer, you know, we're gonna make

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God famous and it's just Todd White, you know Don't the porn concerts late lengthening people's legs

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And frankly that that documentary was appalling. So this will be the complete opposite of anything you saw in that film

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Which I don't recommend people see yeah Because I think God is just think yourself.

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I really need a good PR agent to make me famous if I could just get some good press I could write I could conquer the world

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Poor old God. I mean all he did was speak the universe into existence or he didn't redeem mankind

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But boy, he's our help. He really does. I'm so glad What yeah, he needs

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Todd White yeah, he needs Todd White, yeah, I Tell you what, yeah, if your view of the

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Holy Spirit is is Todd White's leg lengthening stick and Angel feathers and gold dust falling out of the sky then

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I'm sorry I'm your your you have a much lower view of the Holy Spirit than do I?

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That's something else that we really want to sorry my Tim gave me this cat the other day and the cat has been making so much noise during our call

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I had to pick her up and pet her. Otherwise, she would have been Interrupting us the whole time. That's the demon out of that cat brother

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Her name is pickles. She's a cessationist. Okay, her name is Legion Thank you,

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I think it's important to to know that our film is Making a positive case.

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Yes about not just what the Holy Spirit isn't Doing but what he is doing is the

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Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness And he's the one who opened

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Lydia's heart to pay attention to the word in Acts 16 He's the one that opened the

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Philippian jailers heart in the same chapter to cry out What must I do to be saved and he is regenerating souls and he is guiding us in the paths of righteousness

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Through the word through the application of the word through the preaching of the word and taking the word and applying it to the listeners hearts who are hearing it and The Holy's like you guys were just saying that the

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Holy Spirit is very much at work today It's interesting as we've been posting on social media our

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Kickstarter We've gotten so many replies from people saying, you know why don't you just go one step further and call yourself atheists because you're you're saying that God isn't at work and that's not what we're saying

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We're saying God is at work just not in the way that charismatics are saying that he is

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He's at work in doing a much greater miracle Actually now

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Even then things like the healing at the gate called beautiful as as wonderful as that was in silver and gold

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I do not have but what I have I give to you in the name of Jesus get up and walk as Wonderful and marvelous as that was the the real miracle that was happening.

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There was the change in the man's heart from from being an unbeliever to being a follower of Jesus that is

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Far more beautiful and precious and I was wondering if you guys

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Might just briefly address Tongues because I think that's probably the way that most modern

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Continuationists see The the continue, you know What they believe is is the continuation of the

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Holy Spirit's miraculous gift today in the gift of tongues obviously, there's Pentecostals who believe that if you don't speak in tongues, then you're not even a

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Christian What one of the things out and then I'll be quiet because I want to hear from you guys But one of the things that really set me down the path of cessation ism was a

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Sermon that I heard from John MacArthur where he talks about Isaiah chapter 28 where the

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Lord Speaks to Isaiah and says I will speak to this people through strange lips and a foreign tongue

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And that's as a sign of judgment on Jerusalem and then we see that very thing happen in Acts chapter 2 and then in Acts I mean in 1st

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Corinthians 14 Paul quotes that verse And and he's saying this is a sign not for believers but for unbelievers because what what the sign was was that because of the rejection of the

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Jewish leadership of their Messiah the gospel is now going to every tongue and the

26:47

Lord is going to to Proclaim his glory through every other language other than Hebrew as well as Hebrew, too

26:54

So if could you guys maybe talk a little bit about that what why does Why why did people get the idea that tongues?

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Were some kind of gibberish language or where did that come from? Jim if you want to start you can offer some thoughts and then

27:13

Yeah in the New Testament the word for tongues the word for languages and it should be translated languages

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So even the continuations today would say that what happens today with the gift of tongues is a private prayer language

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This should be Spoken in your prayer closet or in in the service and it's really our own

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Individual communication with God that we're speaking to him in a language that only he knows and yet that what goes off What passes for tongues today in most charismatic circles doesn't even have any of the any of the hallmarks of a language

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It doesn't have a recognizable Structure to the language or syntax or anything like that.

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It's it's not a human language at all They say it's an angelic language and yet the New Testament describes it as a human language in Acts chapter 2

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Those people who were gathered at Pentecost heard the gospel being preached every one of them in their own dialect

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Hoss the word for dialect so it wasn't just the word for languages They heard their language and an individual dialect that they were

28:11

Understanding so that they were able to communicate and was not it was not a miracle of the hearing it's not that Peter was speaking in Hebrew and the people were hearing it in in the

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Egyptian language or the Ethiopian language It's that Peter stood up and whatever his language ability was at that moment.

28:28

He was able to speak in a language He had never learned and never known but in that moment that the

28:33

Holy Spirit gave him the ability to communicate the gospel in a Human language to people who are there so I would say

28:40

I would I would like to find the I would like to know which charismatic is able to Go to a foreign tribe who is completely isolated from the gospel and has no written language in Able to just without any training at all step in off the plane into that tribe and Preach the gospel in the native tongue of those people show me that gift of tongues.

28:59

That's the New Testament gift of tongues and in the in the early church it operated as a sign to the

29:06

Jews a sign of judgment as you mentioned because a Jew hearing foreign languages in there on their native soil was always a sign of God's judgment

29:14

It meant that they were under the dominion of some other foreign power Babylonians the Medes the Persians the

29:19

Romans the Greeks whatever it was They would hear these languages on their own soil and it was always a reminder that we are under the judgment of God We don't rule ourselves because we have been disobedient to God and so God has brought in conquerors to come in and to conquer us

29:33

So if you were walking through the streets of Jerusalem and you heard Roman soldiers speaking the Greek language

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It was always in your mind a reminder of the prophecy from Isaiah that we are under judgment because God is judging us for our sin

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Therefore it was a sign of judgment not a personal prayer language so the continuationist has to argue that it's a personal prayer language and they're really arguing that the

29:55

Method has changed that God no longer gives the gift of tongues as a human language today

30:01

But instead he gives it as a personal prayer language Well, you're conceding the heart of the cessationist argument when you make that claim as a continuationist.

30:10

Yeah, that's exactly right And and to your point, it's interesting when you look at the history of the Pentecostal movement

30:16

I mean you can go back to Alexander Dowie and then later

30:22

Charles Fox Parham and William Seymour, but with Parham, especially Back at the turn of the 20th century.

30:29

So the first few years of the 1900s he actually with all the other problems theological problems that he had notwithstanding but he he believed rightly so that the gift of tongues the gift of Tongues was actually that a gift of languages known human languages

30:48

It was the gift of someone to be able to speak in a language Known language.

30:53

It just was not known to him In other words, like if I could all of a sudden speak fluent Swahili that is a known language it's just not known to me and So that was his understanding of tongues and and he was right about that.

31:08

And so it's interesting when you read their history His group sent off a group of people to three different countries

31:17

China, India and Japan Without having taught them any of the languages they just they believe that once these folks got on the boats and Sailed across the ocean blue and got to these different countries that they would step off the boat and God would give them the gift of tongues the gift of languages and they would be able to communicate to people in Chinese Japanese and whatever dialect of Indian they happen to land to problem is

31:45

They made it across the ocean. All right But once they got there and they stepped off the ships, they quickly realized

31:52

They can't I can't understand these people and they can't understand me. And so They they got back on the ships.

31:58

They came back to the United States completely dejected. It didn't work and it was only then

32:04

That Pentecostal said oh, wait a minute. Sorry. We got this wrong. Okay, it's the gift of tongues is not speaking in a known language

32:12

It's actually speaking in unintelligible ecstatic gibberish So when they came back in complete fail, you're realizing that this didn't work then and only then they say oh, okay

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It's it's not speaking in Swahili or German or Portuguese No, it's it's speaking this gibberish and that has been

32:30

The accepted charismatic belief for the last hundred and twenty years almost.

32:35

Yeah Right. So this is a relatively new phenomenon then when it when it comes to tongues being considered

32:46

Gibberish kind of heavenly language So could you guys maybe briefly address then?

32:51

What does Paul mean when he says if I speak in the tongues of men or of angels?

32:59

Yeah, Jim, I mean I can answer this but I'll let you, if you want me to. Well, Paul is using hyperbole

33:06

He's exaggerating to make a point and this is one of the key texts. Let me let me pull it up here on my phone This is one of the key texts that charismatics all go to To support their belief that the gift of tongues is speaking in an angelic language, you know a language that only

33:25

That we don't understand but angels understand because you're speaking with the tongues of angels He says so 1st

33:30

Corinthians 13 1 if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love I have become as a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

33:39

That's actually an important reference there A lot of people kind of glance over that but then he goes on in verse 2 He says if I have the gift of prophecy know all mysteries all knowledge

33:47

Well did Paul have all knowledge? No. Did he did he know all mysteries?

33:53

No And if I have all faith so as to remove mountains had Paul ever rearranged the topography of Israel.

34:02

Oh No, he's he's Exaggerating to make a point he's using hyperbole, but do not have love

34:08

I am nothing if I give all my possessions to feed the poor had Paul done this No, we know he was a tentmaker if I surrender my body to be burned had

34:16

Paul surrendered his body to be burned. No But do not have love it profits me nothing so Paul's exaggerating to make a point

34:24

Paul is this is actually a rebuke to the Corinthians the Corinthians in Paul's absence had become very arrogant in their exercise of the spiritual gifts and what they thought they could do and what

34:37

They thought they knew and what they could do and say they became very arrogant and Paul's writing a corrective a rebuke to them

34:44

Saying look even if I could if I knew all mysteries had all knowledge Even if I could remove mountains, even if I could speak with the tongues of angels

34:53

But do not have love it profits me Nothing and you see the

34:59

Corinthians were all arrogant about what they thought they could do and what they thought they knew But they did not have love.

35:04

They had no true biblical love and Paul is correcting them rebuking them He says it profits me nothing and that reference a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal

35:14

This was a very pointed reference because before the

35:19

Corinthians Heard the gospel before they were converted to Christ in their pagan worship in their pagan days they used noisy gongs clanging cymbals as part of their pagan worship and Part of their pagan worship was guess what to speak in unintelligible ecstatic gibberish

35:41

The same thing that charismatics do today and they call it the gift of tongues, so there's a lot to unpack there

35:49

But and also when Paul says I speak with the tongues of angels you'll hear charismatic say

35:54

Oh when you pray in tongues that you're praying in a language that Satan does not understand

36:00

Because you're praying in the tongues of angels and Satan doesn't understand the tongues of angels So you're praying in a language you kind of slip one in under old

36:08

Lucifer there wasn't an angel Bingo, that's what

36:13

Satan is. He's an angel. He's a fallen angel, but he's an angel So I tell people if you want to pray in a language that Satan does not understand then the tongues of angels would be the last language

36:24

Yeah, that's that's what he is So, you know so linguistic equivalent of uh, you know,

36:31

Br 'er Rabbit don't throw me in that briar patch You know, don't throw me in that briar patch because that's okay

36:37

Could I add? A Kind of go back a story that Jim actually told me

36:43

About a couple at his church who were missionaries to what was the Mon Hui people?

36:50

And the fact that they spent what seven years learning the language before they could even

36:57

Properly share the gospel with that tribe and I was blown away by that story That it wasn't just they showed up and then all of a sudden

37:06

They're speaking Mon Hui or they're hearing in Mon Hui, you know, it I was blown I mean seven years

37:11

That's almost a decade. That's that's a very long time to be patient to to trust the

37:16

Lord in in that Yeah, and Tim they did that just to learn the language so that they could create for that tribe a written language

37:25

Because this tribe had no written language. So I had to create the written language create the alphabet for it

37:31

Create the words for them and then and then begin to teach them to read the written part of their language so that they could read scripture and That whole project was of almost a four decade project that they were involved in and the story is incredible And and I think a proof that God is not giving that gift today

37:51

Yeah, well when we come and visit you guys, we would love to talk with them. Yeah.

37:57

Oh, yeah. I hope you do. Yeah Can I ask what one more thing one more question about tongues if you don't mind, um, so then how would you guys explain

38:08

Is it? Just psychological phenomena then because a person, you know a well -intentioned

38:18

Continuationist who is in their prayer closet or in their home or Wherever and and they will truly believe that they are speaking in tongues

38:31

In the biblical tongues. Well, what would you say? First, what would you say to that person and second?

38:38

What would you say about what they are believing? Would you do are they just self self -deceived?

38:46

99 .99 % of it is learned behavior It's just an ability that you learn how to do and I tell people you can teach a canary how to speak in tongues

38:56

It's just in fact some churches have classes on how to speak in tongues Which makes no sense if that's something for which the

39:03

Holy Spirit gives utterance Why would you ever need to teach somebody how to do it? But but yeah, it's just yeah

39:10

I have a friend who spent years in the charismatic movement. He can drop into speaking the gift of tongues just like that Just start rambling.

39:17

He doesn't believe the gift is real genuine, but he can If you put him in front of a charismatic service He could drop into that gift and start speaking in that way and you'd be convinced that he was just belonged in that charismatic setting

39:29

It's just a learned behavior. It's obvious. Yeah that Said Roth.

39:34

I think you had on one of your clouds without water says Roth talking and getting people on his show. It's supernatural

39:40

Which is hard to stomach by the way You know, what does he say? I if I held a gun to your head you could do it

39:47

Put a gun to your ribs. I mean it was just ecstatically Gibberish. Yeah, it's just gibberish.

39:53

Yeah, and I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who used to be charismatic I mean they bought into it

40:00

Hook line and sinker and they spoke in tongues. It was part of their private prayer language, you know They're you know

40:05

Their time of private devotion with God and they would speak in tongues and they thought it was genuine

40:11

But it was just a learned behavior and then God by his The real working of the

40:16

Holy Spirit God delivered them out of that Deception their cessationist just like we are card -carrying cessationist and as Jim said

40:26

But they still retain the ability to speak in tongues it's just something they learned how to do and It's kind of like riding a bike, you know,

40:36

I'm not that I can ride a bike But from what I've been told once you learn how to ride a bike, you never really forget how to do it

40:44

Even though they're cessationists now they can still do it because it's just a Learned behavior so that and I'll throw this in there, too

40:52

Pagan speak in tongues and in the exact same way that charismatics do mm -hmm in the exact same way yeah, in fact if you took a if you took an audio clip of one and another you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one of them

41:08

Hindu Kundalini and another a charismatic and just played those two audio clips back -to -back in some case

41:13

You can almost put them over top of each other and it just sound like a charismatic worship service You wouldn't be able to tell that that one is

41:19

Satanic or psychosomatic and one is allegedly the gift of God and I'd say if that's genuinely the gift of God You should be able to tell the difference between that and the work of Satan.

41:28

Yeah, that's right Absolutely. So now that you guys are doing this movie. What how then can people support it?

41:35

What what are we looking at in terms of I mean, we didn't bring you on here. Just talk about tongues Let's what's happened tell us about it.

41:42

Thanks. Yeah, so we're we have currently right now an active Kickstarter Campaign, we're trying to raise $100 ,000 and I know some people say like that's that's a lot of money when it comes when it comes to all the things that Go into making a film.

42:01

It's actually a very small amount That $100 ,000 is actually a shoestring budget to make a quality film because there's a lot of things that we have to pay for including

42:12

Editing and equipment and and all kinds of the travel to get interviews all kinds of stuff.

42:18

So Actually had someone tell me that we were asking for more money than Benny Hinn Benny Hinn spends $100 ,000 on lunch

42:31

On a night at the Ritz -Carlton, you know, yeah, so So we're trying to raise a hundred thousand.

42:39

We're at as of this recording. We're at 39 39 ,000 so we need about 61 ,000 more the thing about kickstarter is if you don't raise the entire amount you get nothing

42:54

So so we definitely need support from God's people if if you don't If people believe that this is a film that should be made

43:03

I mean what what Tim's goal and mine is well and and our partner less lamb fear who?

43:10

Made a movie called Calvinist and another one called spirit and truth that the three of us really desire that this film

43:17

Will be timeless that that since it is about a

43:24

Biblical doctrine we're hoping that it will stand the test of time that 30 years from now

43:30

People will be able to look back on this film and and still learn from it.

43:35

I've learned so much So so right now we have about 12 hours of footage from you guys and the other people we've we've already filmed we're looking to get about maybe 15 hours more of Film before we edit it all down and crunch it into a two three hour movie

43:55

Well, we'll see how long it becomes And then and then maybe we could do a study series with the rest of it

44:02

But we there's still a lot a lot of stuff to do. And so I mean,

44:08

I think you said Justin you might put the Kickstarter Link in the description below, right?

44:16

Yeah, I will and let me say something about that, too I I think I can say

44:21

I have never as many videos as I've done on my youtube channel I've never asked anyone to donate to my ministry through my youtube channel

44:29

My youtube channel is not even monetized Although hopefully it will be but all that money is going to go to support other ministries and other worthwhile endeavors but at any rate

44:38

I've done just two or three videos where I've asked people to help support a project and And this is one that I would like to encourage people to support because as you were saying

44:52

David my hope and my desire my prayer for this film is that long after we're gone,

44:58

I would like this to be a tool that God will use to to help an awful lot of people and help them help them to see these things rightly and Help them to come into a greater understanding and appreciation and and rest in not only the inerrancy of Scripture, but the sufficiency of Scripture and God will use this to bring people out of the charismatic deception out of the dangers of evaluating their theology about you evaluating their relationship with God through their experiences and I'm not against experiences, but as long as they plumb with Scripture, but But the charismatic movement bases everything off of off of experience very very little of which is even valid But I won't

45:49

I think this will be a tremendous tool for a long long time to come and and You've interviewed you guys have interviewed not only me and Jim But a whole bunch of other people too and to your point

46:03

David traveling around especially now It is not cheap

46:10

You're not you're not using this money to go you know spend a night at the at the

46:15

Ritz -Carlton and Lamborghini around that this is Tell us a little bit about tell us some of the names that you're

46:24

Interviewing maybe some folks who you still yet have yet to interview and I want I want people to get an idea of the scope of this project

46:31

Yeah Go ahead. Yeah, we've and I just want to add real quick that One of the criticisms

46:38

I received was why would you make a movie about this when there's so many good books already out there and my argument is we're live we live in a media age and we've kind of seen in the last decade some really amazing

46:51

Christian documentaries come out that have been a blessing to the church and Those things kind of like Puritan works have stood the test of time over these years

46:58

I think movies when done right and done well will stand the test of time You might have to switch the format.

47:04

So I might you know, DVDs may go with the way of the VHS someday, but We pray that this thing will will

47:11

Will will press on past that just like good books do And my argument is also people don't read like they should like they used to And they're they're glued to their

47:22

Netflix. And if we can put something out there that honors God and educates

47:29

That's what I want to do I think we're it's a worthwhile endeavor Talking about some of the guys that we've we've gotten, you know, we we met you at g3 conference

47:38

I think we walked out of g3 with eight really solid interviews It's the way we got

47:43

Jim was God's prophet God's providence played so Just huge for me at the conference from the timing of everything to the

47:52

Lord blessing us with the Are getting us a hotel literally across the street where we were able to film in their ballroom which happened to be

48:02

Available, which it's never available. She said and they gave it to us for two days for free. So the

48:08

Lord was really at work In that and when I came over to yeah when

48:13

I came over to to to get You Justin and and you were kind of talking to some folks and Jim asked me about it

48:21

And and next thing, you know, I'm like Jim you got to come with us if we got to get you in this So the

48:27

Lord so really in this Yeah I had no idea that Justin was even lined up to do an interview that day until you showed up and and then

48:35

Somebody asked about my book. God doesn't whisper I explained what that was and was right along the line of what you're doing And you asked me to come over to an interview and I said,

48:42

I don't know I mean Justin is in the shirt like he's wearing right now for this For this video something like that with a suit coat on and I was wearing this lime green polo that looks like I was pulled off of a of a job site by a roadside and I was the guy holding the flag and Supposed to catch everybody's attention and keep them from hitting the workers

49:01

And and I said, I don't think that I don't think that this is really something that should be nice to be in an interview

49:07

He said no No, come on in and so we went and did that so if you watch the trailer to this was Justin you should post at the beginning or the end you'll see

49:13

Phil Johnson in a Nice suit or a sweater vest and a probably a shirt and tie and Comrade and Bayway looks great

49:19

Justin looks dignified and then I show up looking like I walk off of the road crew In fact,

49:25

I posted that that to a Twitter and a friend of mine chimed in and he said what is that shirt? You're wearing. Is that a traffic cone?

49:31

And it's exactly what it looks like So I'm begging everybody to fund this help us fund this movie so that we can get a different interview and I don't look like a homeless guy

49:41

You know God is sovereign and he was sovereign over your hair choice that morning He was

49:48

But if for nothing else just so I could be the comic relief and the list of other good guys on there so we're we're we're

49:55

We went and got Joel Beakey and David woolen from reformed heritage books

50:02

We have a plan to go and visit Brian Borgman. Who's a faithful expositor

50:09

John Samson used to be a former TBN host who's now a reformed pastor Tom Schreiner if if Oh Palmer Robertson is available where I would love to get him.

50:21

He's very Matured he's me's advancing age, but I would love to get that brother too.

50:30

He wrote a book on tongues And did I did I say? Yeah, I sent

50:36

Sam Waldron Rennihan There's there's so many and that's the thing is our list

50:44

Is just growing it's more and more and more and that couple who were

50:50

Missionaries that it's Jim's church. We would love to interview them about their experience in the jungle

50:57

So yeah, there's a lot. We have a lot planned in this the Sorry about that the amazing thing

51:07

Are we still there? Okay. Yes Amazing thing is we have a guy working with one of our partners now in less land fear who?

51:17

He was an illustrator or animator for the Smurfs movie so And transformers and so he has a great ability to add

51:32

Popular appeal to the films that's not just it's not merely an intellectual exercise but it's it's going to be something that that is

51:42

Engaging and and even entertaining and and hopefully most of all helpful to the body of Christ that's the reason we're making this is because we want to be helpful to Christ's body and we want to Be faithful to the truth about who

51:58

God is who the Holy Spirit Is and what he actually does in the world today

52:03

And so we're we're so so grateful to both of you men for for having us on and And for helping to to put this message out there and we look forward to what

52:15

God is going to do through it Yeah, and and I want to add, you know, I've had a few men that we've spoken to pastors

52:21

We said well, I don't really have what can I add to it? And my argument was you're a local church pastor and part and a big part of this film is what the

52:30

Holy Spirit is doing today Yeah, and so we want to hear from these men these voices in the wilderness if you will

52:37

No one might know who some of these guys are but we pray that you do find out who they are and what they're doing locally in their churches

52:44

Because that's when we want this movie to reach the local church. Yeah. Yep. Indeed. Amen.

52:49

Amen Now David just to clarify there's not gonna be actual Smurfs in the documentary, right?

52:56

I Don't think some dressed in lime -green polos That's great well that Man, this this is great.

53:05

I'm excited about the project and So the Kickstarter, I'm gonna put the the link in the description down below Dear ones and you can click on that as Of as of this recording.

53:21

There's we have about three weeks left in the Kickstarter program. So Not to be urgent But I supposed to be urgent dear ones if if you can at any if you can help this project at all

53:34

It would be so very much appreciated You will be a part of what I believe will be a very important work that by God's grace will bear a lot of good

53:44

Fruit for a very long time to come a very long time to come So if you can support

53:50

I my ministry has supported it Jim's on my board So he knows that so my ministry is has supported this project and any help we would we would very much be so grateful for All right.

54:04

Well, thank you guys. Yeah. Thanks. Thank y 'all. Thank you so much. Yeah. All right.

54:11

Thank you brothers Okay. Well dear ones. I hope this has been helpful for you Hopefully maybe whetted your appetite a little bit for this project and and David Tim and this will be

54:24

Expected release date sometime next year. Is that right? Yeah if we can get funded the hope is that we will be done editing within nine months and Our editor will be editing as we're filming too.

54:43

So we're planning on going across the country. We have a videographer also

54:50

Overseas, I'm hoping that we can get some interviews overseas Maybe in Murray and some of those guys over there

54:58

That that we don't have to necessarily travel there for it But yeah, so so the hope is that nine or ten ten months from now

55:08

Will be finished and then then maybe at that time we can all meet up again and do another video on how the movie actually

55:16

Went yeah You know, all right, yeah, yeah Thank you guys

55:22

Yeah, thank y 'all. Thank y 'all. All right, dear ones link down below in the description.

55:27

We so appreciate your help And thank you for joining me until our next time together May the grace of our

55:33

Lord Jesus Christ the love of God and the fellowship of his Holy Spirit be with you all

55:42

If somebody has the gift of miraculous healing Surely all he needs to do is to prove it, but let's face it we've been battling with COVID and the so -called miracle workers

55:58

Went into hiding together with us Cessation ism is the view that certain miraculous gifts that stood as signs of an apostle speaking in tongues healing prophecies

56:12

Interpretation of tongues gifts like that ceased with the Apostles cessation ism has fallen out of favor and because Commitment to the authority of Scripture has fallen out of favor

56:24

When you turn on Christian TV, you don't see expositors of Scripture John MacArthur or Steve Lawson You see

56:31

Joel Osteen Joseph Prince Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn Joyce Meyer Paula white That's who you see because that's the mainstream

56:39

Speaking in tongues, you're gonna speak out of your spirit. Don't worry about what it sounds like Our understanding of speaking in tongues must be guided by the scriptures not our feelings

56:52

They were known languages that were capable of interpretation and not everybody speaks in tongues

56:58

If God speaks it must be infallible inerrant and authoritative and the Lord said to me were you how old for me?

57:06

I Don't ask me to do that There's no longer the need for the gift of prophecy

57:19

Speaking forth divine revelation from God. We have now the whole

57:24

Council of God This word is the final word The apostolic gifts have gone they were never intended for our generation