Cessationist Documentary: What This Is and How You Can Help!

Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today. I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast and I'm doing just a little bit of an intro here before I get to the main part of our time together today and To let you know what this is about.

I'm doing an interview with the two co-producers of an upcoming documentary Entitled cessationist. I was interviewed for this documentary as was Jim Osman. You'll see him in the in the as we get into the meat of the matter here.

As was Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Gabe Hughes a number of other men. Very solid. Joel Beakey doctrinally solid man. Josh Bice was as well a number of a number of folks I shouldn't start naming because I'll forget some but at any rate this is a really Exciting project and I'm honored to be a part of it it will be I believe a tour de force for the biblical position of cessationism and I want to let you know about it and up front here on the on the beginning part to ask for your support there's a lot a lot that goes into making a documentary and a lot of expenses and Those of you who have followed my channel for any amount of time, you know.

That I have never asked for money for myself or for my ministry on my youtube channel. Not once have I done that there's just been two or three videos where I've asked some people to support to support a worthy cause a family who lost their their father and husband some months ago and The writing project of Conrad and Bayway in Africa and the work they're doing.

So but I've never asked for money for myself, and I'm still not here. But I would like to ask for your support for this Documentary cessationist there is a Kickstarter program Underway right now and the link to that is down below there in the description.

So Anyway, I mentioned the Kickstarter program in this episode. But it's towards the end of the video and so I know a lot of people will start watching it. So at any rate please watch this interview and If after watching the interview, this is something that you would would like to support.

It would be greatly greatly appreciated. My ministry has supported this not a dime of this is going to me in fact this is outflow from my ministry to to this project because I do believe I really believe that this will be a Tremendous tool and by God's grace It will be one that he will use in the lives of many people for many years to come.

So, all right, dear ones with that by way of introduction, let's go to the interview and It is my privilege today to introduce you or if not introducing necessarily give you a little bit more information about this new documentary entitled cessationist.

I'm really excited about this and I am joined today by David Lovi and Tim Cannon who are brothers. Tell me your your titles are the.

Related to the documentary. Right now we're the co-producers of the film. Yeah, we're still we're still working working out all the titles for it though. Okay. All right.

So the co-producers of the film and also Jim Osman my friend and pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho. So David and Tim interviewed Jim and myself for this documentary cessationist as well as a number of other names that you are likely familiar with Phil Johnson Conrad and Bayway a number of others.

We'll talk some more about that. But I wanted I want you to hear from from David and from Tim and they're gonna tell us more about this documentary. What they're going to do with it. When's it going to come out all this kind of stuff.

So David Tim Jim as well. Thank you brothers for joining me.

Yeah, very welcome. Thanks. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. Yeah, so we wanted to make.

Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Take it away.

Well, actually, you know what Tim if you would like to talk about. What we were originally going to do before we started making this film. Yeah, so so.

Real briefly I met David at together for the gospel 2018 when he worked for the Martin Lloyd-Jones Trust board and He had just come off the heels of working on logic on fire the life and legacy of dr Martin Lloyd-Jones and I kind of became friends with him.

We hit it off and I said, hey, I just kept hounding him We need to make another movie and he said, okay What do you want to make a movie about and it? Turns out we were gonna make a film about Beth and Lloyd-Jones the wife of the doctor and it would be a sort of sequel and With kovat it kind of put everything to a halt with travel.

Everything was locked down in Wales and Scotland and England, so we kind of had to regroup and we said well What do we want to make a film about and we picked the highly controversial topic of cessationism?

Yeah.

Well good choice because this is a This is an issue it's you're kind of behind the eight ball a little bit in a sense just with the name because cessationist has kind of a I guess kind of a Down sounding name, you know, something is ceased and but.

But once we talk about what it really is and what it means In people's lives their sanctification. I think this will be a tremendously Impactful documentary, I'm very excited about it. I think it'll be a great help to a lot of people.

And David what what would you like to share with our viewers about about this film?

Yeah, so I first became Interested in Pneumatology, I mean obviously as as a Christian we have to be interested in pneumatology or the study of the Holy Spirit. But I became really interested in this topic after I became a pastor of an evangelical free church north of Chicago about 40 miles north of Chicago and actually, right when I first became the pastor I Started a book club.

We called it the brown bag book club. And I wanted to introduce the people in the church to great works in Church history, so we started reading JC Riles old paths and and FW crew mockers the suffering Savior and we read Thomas Boston's human nature in its fourfold state and all with a group of mostly retired people who are not typically the Demographic you would think that that would be interested in you know, learning about really deep Theological issues, but boy they really loved it.

Well when I had the idea to start that book club There was a lady in the church who came up to me and and asked when are we going to read? Good morning, Holy Spirit by Benny Hinn and I I thought at first I thought she was just joking but but she wasn't and and Then I realized with some of the song choices that the church had been making prior to me getting there to that they were playing Hillsong and Bethel music and Jesus culture and all of that and and I became a Christian Relatively later on in my life when I when I was 22 years old, so I didn't have much experience with those kind of Contemporary Christian music.

I thought it was all just kind of corny sounding honestly but then when I started listening to to the lyrics of those songs and Something is really off with this music and a lady in the church came up to me very soon after I became the pastor there and she gave me this thick packet of Information she had gathered about Hillsong Jesus culture Bill Johnson who I'd never heard of before and and saying how her daughter was Sucked in by that music into Bethel Church and she had she left Chicago moved to California to join that to join that church and it's that that experience of reading what this faithful lady had compiled about like actually this is not just a difference of minor minor theological issue is this is a different a Different person they're they're talking about a different person than the Bible describes as who the Holy Spirit is and and it set me on the path to really dig deep and and study these things and I Had gone into being a pastor as a kind of an open but cautious Person when it came to the Miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit like I don't know.

I don't want to limit God But I but I don't know if if what is What calls itself tongues or or the gift of healing is really real or not? I'm just I'm just cautious about it. And the reason why is because I felt like I didn't want to limit God but as I dug into Pneumatology deeper and and read some books on the subject And started doing Bible study on the subject I realized Actually that the charismatic position on the gifts miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit is is just not Bearing out with facts today that though those those things that they claim are actually going on in the church Aren't really going on in the church.

And the reason is because those were the signs of Apostles and there are no more Apostles today and so it set me on a journey to To really become serious about pneumatology and when when the project fell through The far above Ruby's the life of Beth and Lloyd-Jones.

Which we hope to still make someday because that's actually a worthy film. I think needs to be made. But when that fell through and Tim and I were talking about what else could we do? Immediately I think at the same time both of us thought what what if we made a film about biblical pneumatology?

What does the Bible what if we made a positive case? For the doctrine of cessation ism both historically and Biblically because I think a common theme we've seen since we dropped our Kickstarter is people saying there are absolutely no Arguments for the cessation of the miraculous gifts.

Yeah, and that's simply not true. No, so so our our film is Going to be focused not as much on what we've heard is a critique of the low-hanging fruit of the false teachers, although we will talk about that because That like you said in the trailer that that we dropped that is the mainstream of the charismatic movement.

That's out there but we also want to truly interact with the arguments of people like Sam Storms and DA Carson and John Piper and and so on a continuing and Wayne Grudem Continuationist today that though I respect those brothers and I think that they are brothers.

They are in the fringe of the charismatic movement but we wanted we want to really interact with their arguments and show why we don't believe that they're real or true or or even Biblically accurate right and that you know, that's why we wanted to get YouTube guys in the movie.

Yeah.

Well, I think I speak for Jim when I say we're both honored to be a part of it excited about the project and Jim. One of the one of the common misconceptions that I hear all the time From my charismatic critics is that oh, you're a cessationist.

You don't believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. You don't believe in the gifts. That's they just said you don't believe in the gifts. So maybe give us a Definition. What is cessationism actually and what is it not?

Yeah, Phil Johnson addresses this in the video actually as he describes what cessationism is it's an it's a narrow view of the cessation of some of the Miraculous or apostolic gifts, so that would be the gift of tongues the gift of interpretation of tongues the gift of miracles and healing the gift of prophecy in its foretelling or revelatory sense not in its proclaiming or teaching sense, but in its foretelling a revelatory sense and probably the gift of I mentioned interpretation of tongues already.

So those more miraculous and revelatory gifts the New Testament. And of course we would say that those signs were given to the Apostles as an authentication of the ministry. They were signs of an Apostle Paul calls Paul speaks of the signs of an Apostle in his letter to the Corinthians so we just simply believe that those gifts given to in the apostolic age for the purpose of authenticating the Recipients of divine revelation that those gifts are no longer given by the Holy Spirit that's the cessationist perspective and and as As most cessationists will point out anybody who is within Evangelicalism who believes that the Bible is the Word of God and that the canon is closed is really a cessationist.

Because we're arguing the scriptures no longer being given. We're arguing that there's no more no longer an apostolic office that the gift of Apostle is not being given and all of us have to recognize that the things being done in the New Testament are just not taking place today, and so even some of our Reformed or Cautious, but what do you call it?

Open but cautious brethren even they would say well these gifts that are being manifested today are the same gift. But a different manifestation of the gift and so even like for instance Wayne Grudem would say that the gift of prophecy today is not The same gift as it happened in the New Testament.

It's not a it's not a revelatory gift. It's a it's a personal gift. It's not inspired inerrant and authoritative in the way the scripture is so really what he's arguing is this is the cessationist perspective.

He's admitting that what happened in the New Testament is not happening today. That's that's basically the cessationist argument. We don't believe that scripture being given today that it's being written today.

And therefore unless you believe that there's an open canon and that we should be adding books of scripture. Like Jesus calling and Jesus calling to and Jesus calling for doctors and Jesus calling All of those books to the end of the New Testament and calling those revelation unless you're gonna argue for that.

Then you're really arguing for a cessationist perspective. So everybody who believes that they're hearing from God today would say Yeah, I hear from God, but it's not inerrant infallible and authoritative in which case they're what they're really saying is Yeah, I think these gifts are still kind of given but they're not the same as the New Testament.

And so then the different you're really arguing the heart of the cessationist perspective. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And so it's like when I hear people say this I always say Excuse me. I think even Michael Brown Michael Brown has said that he no longer that he doesn't believe that there are capital a Apostles today.

I I don't know. He's kind of equivocated on that. But but anybody who would say, okay We don't have Apostles today like like John was like Peter was Like Paul was okay. We don't have those Apostles. Okay, well if if if you believe that then congratulations, you're a cessationist.

Yeah, you believe the gift of Apostle has ceased. It's no longer given, right? And so we're simply saying that the Spirit is sovereign over the giving of those gifts. And he gives the gifts according to his will and if it is his will to give a certain Grouping of gifts revelatory gifts for a specific period of time and then not give those gifts anymore.

That's all the cessationist is arguing is that we're basically saying the Spirit of God is sovereign. He gives the gifts according to his purpose and we're saying that those gifts have a purpose that purpose has been fulfilled and today we are The beneficiaries of that work of those gifts in the early church and they're no longer necessary or needful and therefore they're no longer given.

Yeah, that's right, right because there were gaps even in the Bible of the miraculous for hundreds and hundreds of years right between Moses and Elijah and Elijah to the New Testament. Yeah, so it's it's it's not like a gap in the miraculous is something strange that right seems like the miraculous Periods themselves were only very very temporary each time.

Yeah. Yeah, that's even in the New Testament era. What you see is that in the New Testament the the miracles that took place and the revelatory Ministry of the Spirit that took place took place under the ministry and in connection to the ministry of the apostles.

Your average everyday Christian was not writing scripture. Luke wrote in connection with Paul's ministry Mark wrote in connection with Peter's ministry and then you have John and Peter and Paul and James James even himself writing in connection with apostolic ministry.

So these books were written under the auspices of the apostles and the miracles were done by those who are either Apostles or those closely associated with apostolic ministry namely Philip and Barnabas and the men who were who are tied to the apostles.

So there's no sense. There's no justification in Scripture that your average run-of-the-mill Christian Woke up and was able to do miracles and see miracles in their day-to-day life and that these healings were going on all over the Place widespread in the early church.

That's just not the record of the New Testament.

That's right. And I'm x 512 to your point Jim. It says now at the hands of the Apostles many signs and wonders were happening among the people.

So, I mean that right there so signs and Luke is consistent you read through the book of Acts. You'll see him use that same formula time and again at the hands of the Apostles many signs and wonders were taking place.

Paul and Barnabas testified of what God did through them. It's specific Luke's argument all the way through the gospel of Acts is that these men particularly Paul and Barnabas were Designated as authentic spokesmen for Jesus Christ because they had the ability to do the same miracles that Jesus Christ did.

And so now today we have no need for those same gifts to be given. That's right. That's right. And as that's not to say just to get back to your question. That's not to say that God does not do miracles today or that God does not heal today.

That's right. The Spirit of God is not active today because you know. This is the danger that charismatics have they have at the same time a very over realized and under realized pneumatology. It's over realized in the sense that everything to them is a miracle, right?

If I pray for something and God provided it be by Providence, that's a miracle. So that's the Spirit of God and every whisper every nudging every prompting every random thought that pops into their head.

That's the Spirit of God. It must be God speaking. So that's an over realized pneumatology. But at the same time when you take away all of those things and say no the Spirit of God is not speaking to you.

Then they demonstrate that they have a very under realized pneumatology and they said well What then do you think the Spirit of God does? And it's a stationist. We would say the Spirit of God is involved in Dozens of ways and everything that we do is working out Providence.

He said he regenerates he sanctifies he encourages he strengthens. He emboldens he works through his word. He helps preachers preach. He gives gifts to the body. He's working through the gifts of administration.

The Spirit of God is constantly active in our lives. But charismatics can't see any of that only if they don't see a miraculous thing. They think the Spirit of God is not there and if you tell them the Spirit of God is not doing any of these Radical signs then they just say well.

What then do you think the Spirit of God does? Which shows you just how pathetic their view of the Holy Spirit is that that they don't see the Spirit of God at work in Almost any way unless it's some supernatural Spectacular thing that's supposed to you know, be very sensational.

That's that's their view of the Holy Spirit. He's just the one who pops up and does crazy things and if he's not doing crazy things, he's not doing anything.

Yeah, bingo bingo I tell people as a cessationist I cede no ground to the charismatics in my pneumatology in my view of the Holy Spirit. I it is I we would all argue and I think will be argued in this documentary that it is not we cessationists who have a low view of the Holy Spirit.

It's charismatics. It's it's word-faith New Apostolic Reformation folks who have a low View of the Holy Spirit of God and that is ground that is theological ground that what that that we need to reclaim.

And I hope this by God's grace this documentary will help us to reclaim.

Well, if you if you juxtapose this documentary with what came out a couple of years ago, I believe it's called Holy Ghost. Yeah, I think the guy's name is Darren something they I saw it. I actually recently re-watched the trailer.

And he says in the trailer, you know, we're gonna make God famous and it's just Todd White you know going to porn concerts late lengthening people's legs and. Frankly that that documentary was appalling.

So this will be the complete opposite of anything you saw in that film. Which I don't recommend people see yeah.

Cuz I think God is just think yourself. I really need a good PR agent to make me famous if I could just get some good press.

I could write I could conquer the world. Poor old God. I mean all he did was speak the universe into existence or he didn't redeem mankind. But boy, he's our help. He really does. I'm so glad. What. Yeah, he needs Todd White.

Yeah, he needs Todd White. Yeah, I Tell you what? Yeah, if your view of the Holy Spirit is is Todd White's leg lengthening stick and Angel feathers and gold dust falling out of the sky then I'm sorry I'm your your.

You have a much lower view of the Holy Spirit. Then do I?

Mm-hmm. That's something else that we really want to. Sorry my Tim gave me this cat the other day and the cat has been making so much noise during our call I had to pick her up and pet her. Otherwise, she would have been.

Interrupting us the whole time. Yes the demon out of that cat brother.

Her name is pickles. She's a cessationist. Okay, her name is Legion. I Think it's important to to know that our film is Making a positive case. Yes about not just what the Holy Spirit isn't doing. But what he is doing is do and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and he's the one who opened Lydia's heart to pay attention to the word in Acts 16.

He's the one that opened the Philippian jailers heart in the same chapter to cry out What must I do to be saved and he is? Regenerating souls and he is guiding us in the paths of righteousness through the word through the application of the word through the preaching of the word and taking the word and applying it to the listeners hearts who are Hearing it and the Holy's like you guys were just saying that the Holy Spirit is very much at work today.

It's interesting as we've been posting on social media our Kickstarter we've gotten so many replies from people saying, you know Why don't you just go one step further and call yourself atheists because you're you're saying that God isn't at work and that's not what we're saying.

We're saying God is at work. Just not in the way that Charismatics are saying that he is he's at work in doing a much greater miracle. Actually now even then things like the healing at the gate called beautiful as as wonderful as that was in silver and gold I do not have but what I have I give to you in the name of Jesus get up and walk as Wonderful and marvelous as that was the the real miracle that was happening.

There was the change in the man's heart from from being an unbeliever to being a follower of Jesus that is is far more beautiful and precious and I was wondering if you guys Might just briefly address tongues because I think that's probably the way that Most modern Continuationists see The the continue, you know what they believe is is the continuation of the Holy Spirit's miraculous gift today in the gift of tongues.

Obviously, there's Pentecostals who believe that if you don't speak in tongues, then you're not even a Christian. What one of the things out and then I'll be quiet because I want to hear from you guys.

But one of the things that really set me down the path of cessation ism was a Sermon that I heard from John MacArthur where he talks about Isaiah chapter 28 where the Lord Speaks to Isaiah and says I will speak to this people through strange lips and a foreign tongue.

And that's as a sign of judgment on Jerusalem and then we see that very thing happen in Acts chapter 2 and then in Acts I mean in 1st Corinthians 14 Paul quotes that verse and and he's saying this is a sign not for believers, but for unbelievers because what what the sign was was that because of the rejection of the Jewish leadership of their Messiah the gospel is now going to every tongue and the Lord is going to to Proclaim his glory through every other language other than Hebrew as well as Hebrew, too.

So if could you guys maybe talk a little bit about that? What why does. Why why did people get the idea that tongues? Were some kind of gibberish language or where did that come from?

Jim if you want to start you can offer some thoughts and then. In the New Testament.

Yeah in the New Testament the word for tongues is the word for languages and it should be translated languages. So even the continuations today would say that what happens today with the gift of tongues is a private prayer language.

This should be spoken in your prayer closet or in In the service and it's really our own individual communication with God that we're speaking to him in a language that only he knows and yet What goes off what passes for tongues today in most charismatic circles doesn't even have any of the Any of the hallmarks of a language.

It doesn't have a recognizable Structure to the language or syntax or anything like that. It's it's not a human language at all. They say it's an angelic language and yet the New Testament describes it as a human language in Acts chapter 2.

Those people who were gathered at Pentecost heard the gospel being preached every one of them in their own dialect. Hoss the word for dialect so it wasn't just the word for languages. They heard their language and an individual dialect that they were Understanding so that they were able to communicate and was not it was not a miracle of the hearing.

It's not that Peter was speaking in Hebrew and the people were hearing it in in the Egyptian language or the Ethiopian language. It's that Peter stood up and whatever his language ability was at that moment.

He was able to speak in a language He had never learned and never known but in that moment The Holy Spirit gave him the ability to communicate the gospel in a human language to people who are there so I would say I would I would like to find the I would like to know which charismatic is able to Go to a foreign tribe who is completely isolated from the gospel and has no written language in and able to just without any training at all step in off the plane into that tribe and Preach the gospel in the native tongue of those people show me that gift of tongues.

That's the New Testament gift of tongues and in the in the early church it operated as a sign to the Jews a sign of judgment as you mentioned because a Hearing foreign languages in there on their native soil was always a sign of God's judgment.

It meant that they were under the dominion of some other foreign power Babylonians the Medes the Persians the Romans the Greeks whatever it was. They would hear these languages on their own soil and it was always a reminder that we are under the judgment of God.

We don't rule ourselves because we have been disobedient to God and so God has brought in conquerors to come in and to conquer us. So if you were walking through the streets of Jerusalem and you heard Roman soldiers speaking the Greek language.

It was always in your mind a reminder of the prophecy from Isaiah that we are under judgment because God is judging us for our sin. Therefore it was a sign of judgment not a personal prayer language. So the continuationist has to argue that it's a personal prayer language and they're really arguing that the Method of has changed that God no longer gives the gift of tongues as a human language today.

But instead he gives it as a personal prayer language. You're conceding the heart of the cessationist argument when you make that claim as a continuationist.

Yeah, that's exactly right and and to your point. It's interesting when you look at the history of the Pentecostal movement I mean you can go back to Alexander Dowie and then later Charles Fox Parham and William Seymour, but with Parham especially Back at the turn of the 20th century.

So the first few years of the 1900s he Actually with all the other problems theological problems that he had notwithstanding but he he believed rightly so that the gift of tongues the gift of Tongues was actually that a gift of languages known human languages.

It was the gift of someone to be able to speak in a language known language. It just was not known to him in other words. Like if I could all of a sudden speak fluent Swahili that is a known language.

It's just not known to me and So that was his understanding of tongues and and he was right about that and so it's interesting when you read their history his group sent off a Group of people to three different countries China, India and Japan.

Without having taught them any of the languages they just they believe that once these folks got on the boats and Sailed across the ocean blue and got to these different countries that they would step off the boat and God would give them the gift of tongues the gift of languages and they would be able to communicate to people in Chinese Japanese and whatever dialect of Indian they happen to land to problem is.

They made it across the ocean. All right. But once they got there and they stepped off the ships, they quickly realized They can't I can't understand these people and they can't understand me. And so They they got back on the ships.

They came back to the United States completely dejected. It didn't work and it was only then That Pentecostal said oh, oh, wait a minute. Sorry. We got this wrong. Okay, it's the gift of tongues. It's not speaking in a known language.

It's actually speaking in unintelligible ecstatic gibberish. So when they came back in complete failure realizing that this didn't work then and only then they say oh, okay. It's it's not speaking in Swahili or German or Portuguese.

No, it's it's speaking this gibberish and that has been the accepted charismatic belief for the last hundred and twenty years almost Yeah.

Right. So this is a relatively new phenomenon then when it when it comes to tongues being considered Gibberish kind of heavenly language. So could you guys maybe briefly address then what does Paul mean when he says if I speak in the tongues of men?

Or of angels.

Yeah Jim I mean I can answer this, but I'll let you. Well, Paul is using hyperbole. He's exaggerating to make a point and this is one of the key texts. Let me let me pull it up here on my phone. This is one of the key texts that charismatics all go to.

To support their belief that the gift of tongues is speaking in an angelic language, you know a language that only We don't understand but angels understand because you're speaking with the tongues of angels.

He says so first Corinthians 13 1 if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love I have become as a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. That's actually an important reference here.

A lot of people kind of glance over that but then he goes on in verse 2. He says if I have to get to prophecy know all mysteries all knowledge. Well did Paul have all knowledge? No, did he. Did he know all mysteries?

No, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains had Paul ever rearranged the topography of Israel. No. No, he's he's exaggerating to make a point. He's using hyperbole, but do not have love I am nothing if I give all my possessions to feed the poor.

Had Paul done this. No, we know he was a tentmaker. If I surrender my body to be burned had Paul surrendered his body to be burned. No. But do not have love it profits me nothing. So Paul's exaggerating to make a point.

Paul is this is actually a rebuke to the Corinthians. The Corinthians in Paul's absence had become very arrogant in their exercise of the spiritual gifts and what they thought they could do and what they thought they knew and What they could do and say they became very arrogant and Paul's writing a corrective a rebuke to them saying Look even if I could if I knew all mysteries had all knowledge.

Even if I could remove mountains, even if I could speak with the tongues of angels. But do not have love it Profits me nothing. And you see the Corinthians were all arrogant about what they thought they could do and what they thought they knew.

But they did not have love they had no true biblical love and Paul is correcting them rebuking them. He says it profits me nothing and that reference a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. This was a very pointed reference because before the Corinthians Heard the gospel before they were converted to Christ in their pagan worship in their pagan days they used noisy gongs clanging cymbals as part of their pagan worship and Part of their pagan worship was guess what to speak in unintelligible ecstatic gibberish.

The same thing that charismatics do today and they call it the gift of tongues so there's a lot to unpack there. But and also when Paul says I speak with the tongues of angels you'll hear charismatic say oh when you pray in tongues.

That you're praying in a language that Satan does not understand. Because you're praying in the tongues of angels and Satan doesn't understand the tongues of angels. So you're praying in a language you kind of slip one in under old Lucifer.

There wasn't an angel. Bingo, that's what Satan is. He's an angel. He's a fallen angel, but he's an angel. So I tell people if you want to pray in a language that Satan does not understand then the tongues of angels would be the last language.

Yeah, that's that's what he is. So, you know so linguistic equivalent of you know, Br 'er Rabbit. Don't throw me in that briar patch. You know, don't don't throw me in that briar patch because that's okay.

Could I add?

A Kind of go back a story that Jim actually told me. About a couple at his church who were missionaries to what was the Mon Hui people? And the fact that they spent what seven years learning the language before they could even Properly share the gospel with that tribe.

And I was blown away by that story. That it wasn't just they showed up and then all of a sudden They're speaking Mon Hui or they're hearing in Mon Hui, you know it. I was blown. I mean seven years. That's almost a decade.

That's that's a very long time to be patient to to trust the Lord in in that.

Yeah, and Tim they did that just to learn the language so that they could create for that tribe a written language. Because this tribe had no written language. So I had to create the written language create the alphabet for it.

Create the words for them and then and then begin to teach them to read the written part of their language so that they could read scripture and. That whole project was of almost a four decade project that they were involved in and the story is incredible.