Hebrew Israelites Return then Q&A

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00:07

So it's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that could be done for okay So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing

00:16

Is it is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient

00:25

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

00:34

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

00:49

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions any questions you got about God and the

00:59

Bible we can answer them here Just remember I don't know is a

01:05

Perfectly good answer. So with that, let me bring in mr. Drew Vanita.

01:12

Hello. It's good to be back with you. It says drew Vonita matter of theology

01:18

But when was the last time you were on? last Okay, just checking

01:23

I just for the record. Hey Chris Hough be like, you know, give this guy a hard time here Yeah, well actually

01:28

Chris is probably going. Hey if he wants to promote the podcast He never's on you know But I started it.

01:34

Yeah So Facebook is acting weird for us It seems that it's complaining that we can't stream

01:43

Now originally was giving us trouble in the apologetics live group Now it's giving us trouble in Christian apologetics group and the

01:50

Justin Peters group. I You know can't can't we lost access to your

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Facebook account? Really? Why? Yeah Yeah, Facebook's a bunch of meanies they're trying to crack down one at a time one.

02:07

Yeah. Yeah, so we're supposed to get some Hebrew Israelites in we'll see if they a

02:12

Shah and see if he comes back in we're hoping he does I Did get a message if you remember a couple weeks ago.

02:22

We had a lady that was pretty critical of Calvinism and We weren't quite sure we asked her to come in I hope she does but she she did message and say that she read through Ephesians and it helped her to understand some things a little bit better.

02:38

So I see a shot is there in Watching on YouTube. So we'll wait for him to come in.

02:44

But so, you know, how are you doing there, buddy? I'm I'm doing well. I'm doing well.

02:50

I'm starting training for a new job For life insurance, so prayerfully,

02:56

I hope that goes I go that goes well, but I mean I'm I can't be doing as good as you are because You just celebrated a birthday.

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I I hit the speed limit in New Jersey Double fives. Yeah, 55

03:10

So happy birthday Andrew. Yeah, and so Oh a Shah is asking for the email the email

03:16

I mean you you already know he already know should know how to get in because he got in last week just go to a project live comm and Click the duck icon the stream yard icon and you're in.

03:27

Yep. So that that's how you do it and anyone can come in so anyone can come in and That way if you want you come on in ask any questions you have the first hour

03:40

We we're gonna deal hopefully with a shot answering his questions. I read through numbers 24.

03:45

I wasn't quite sure Where he was going with that, so we'll we'll have to get him on to discuss and But let's deal with the in the news section here.

03:56

I kind of triggered you before we went live didn't I? Yeah, I mean it's You know, the crazy thing is is

04:02

I think I think you I know dr. White Years ago when the Obergefell decision came down There you guys were saying this is the step one of the next is where it's going.

04:15

Yep Yeah, so today the UN has declared that children

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Have I mean it makes sense in their worldview because they think a child can at you know Five -year -old could determine its gender and know everything that all the ramifications of that, right?

04:34

so Why not just say well children? As young as five can also consent to sexual relations and so the

04:44

UN has now declared that children can Be cognizant to consent to sexual relations, which basically you destroys a whole bunch of statutory rape laws

04:56

You're you know, so so we said this years ago. I mean this this is now they're gonna look to make this legal

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The the next step is incest That you know, if you listen to can't

05:08

Candace Owens she has been doing a lot of stuff you know granted, I'm just basically what she said, but she has has claimed that the number one thing that they search for in these porn sites is

05:22

Brothers and sisters having things together. So Gravity of man.

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Yeah, so incest is next and then bestiality follows. So, you know, it's gonna be

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I mean they're ready Pushing in at least in Utah for multiple wives again or multiple husbands

05:39

So so we're seeing a complete breakdown. So I mean this as we look at it is

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Where the sinful nature of man wants to go? Because they just want to serve their own flesh deny that they're accountable to a infinitely holy infinitely just God and when you try to remove

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That then what ends up happening You've nothing else. You have nothing to to keep you accountable but when you realize you're accountable to an infinitely holy infinitely just and by the way omniscient

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God who knows Everything you do even when you're alone Guess what? he

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You're accountable to him. He knows everything. Yeah With that with what the what the

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UN is saying, I want to give some encouragement to the Saints out there if we look at the the book of Romans the first chapter of Romans and First let's just back if you know anything about Rome Rome was the epicenter of everything bad at that time

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All roads led to Rome Because that was the center of trade and commerce and everything that was wicked and vile

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Centered in Rome and yet when Paul writes his letter to the Romans, what is he doing? He's praising them for their great faith in the middle of that cesspool of sin so what we need to do is we need to hold fast to the gospel cling to the scriptures and Remember that we must have faith.

07:14

Yeah That's right. Now the second news article as we wait for a shot.

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Come on in We might have some other guests but this this Folks, I'm just gonna say if you've tuned in to apologetics live

07:30

Especially for the last three years. This is not gonna be news to you I get it, but to a lot of the world.

07:37

This was this is a shocker drew shocker there people are gonna be surprised by this but You know

07:46

Hey, let me just read. I'll read the headline CDC director admits vaccinated individuals can transmit kovat 19 to others

07:59

Yeah, we've only known that For two years two and a half years. We've been pointing that out.

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But hey, hey the CDC's finally caught up to Apologetics live welcome to the party.

08:11

You should listen to us First rather than what did it YouTube did?

08:17

Oh, that's right YouTube dinged us for saying masks don't work and you could spread kovat to people even if vaccinated that we got in big trouble because we said

08:30

Vaccinated people the vaccines don't stop you from getting kovat Nor stop you from spreading kovat therefore we saw no reason for The Vaccines the way they claimed them.

08:46

That's right. And That's what we so that's that's kind of what we're you know, we're dealing with Well, welcome.

08:53

We want to welcome CDC to 2023 We're glad you're here and caught up with everybody else.

09:01

Glad you caught up to us from where we were in 2021 It only took you two years two and a half years to get here, but welcome to the party

09:08

CDC And you know that they want to know the truth they're welcome to ask us first, yeah

09:14

We could tell them because clearly Their agenda finally caught up to truth.

09:20

Yeah. Well, you know what? the next thing is right the next thing is going to be them admitting that the

09:26

The vaccine is harming people Yeah, yeah, that is that is coming so So that's with the in the news section.

09:36

So here's what we're gonna do today folks We want to get into discussing a shot.

09:42

It just got in so we want to discuss with a Shah He he had brought up numbers 24 17 to 20.

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So we want to discuss that. I really I did look at it I it was hard for me to do like in -depth study only because I wasn't sure

09:58

What his view really was with it. So Yeah, I think I think what the numbers

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I think his question was is this about Christ? Yeah, and that's that's kind of what

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I thought So and and actually when I realized I was like this this is and there's an interesting context behind all this

10:16

But let's let us bring and so what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring a shy in We'll go to the top of the hour and then we're gonna do

10:24

Q &A. So any questions you guys have You can even ask them now if you want to ask them in chat and we'll spot them

10:31

But if you really want to make sure your question gets asked the best way to do that is go to apologetics live .com

10:38

Scroll down to the you can watch it there if you want, but scroll down to the duck icon

10:43

That's the stream yard click on that join us in the discussion as a Shah has done and then you

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Can get your question asked so that's the best way. So let me bring a shot in sir.

10:55

How are you? Are you there? We don't have him on camera

11:03

Yeah, I hear you. There we go Okay, perfect. So I'm doing well on yourself.

11:10

Good good. You know, it's it's really it's maybe it's good I was gonna say it's not good that you're not on camera Maybe it is good because out of the three of us you're probably the best -looking one of us

11:18

So we are having drew and I hear it's hard because I'm pretty good -looking Yeah, you obviously don't look in a mirror my friend.

11:25

No But but yeah, so so welcome back

11:30

I want to give you you you brought up and we didn't really have time last week To talk about the numbers 24, let me if I could can

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I give just some background with with numbers really? It's it starts in 22 goes to 25

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Is is one? If I can give the overview, is that that okay with you a shot? Um, you could do that.

11:53

Yeah, he's he a shot is going. Yeah, you could do it. It's your show, dude But No, so this is

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Sun this is talking about an individual known as Balaam Balaam is an interesting individual because if you read numbers 22 23 24 and not 25

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You're gonna think Balaam's a pretty good guy But as we read the rest of Scripture, we end up realizing that chapter 25 is attributed to Balaam In fact

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Jude will will refer to it as counsel of Balaam and elsewhere it talks about greed and things

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So what what basically occurred was the Israelites were coming into the land? Balak who is

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King realized like a we're watching these Israelites just take over city after city after city so there's this guy

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Balaam and Balaam is You know, he is a guy who is

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An oracle, so he's he's a prophet of God and he's one who

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Basically goes and you know that Balak wanted wanted Balaam to curse the

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Israelites and so What we end up having is

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The the result is is that Balak goes to Balaam and says hey will you come and curse the

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Israelites for me? Well Balaam goes and says, you know what?

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I you know, I can't God says I can't go But he really wanted the money. He was greedy as we see in other passages of Scripture So the guys go and they come back with even more

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And so What ends up happening is? He gets greedy.

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He really wants to go he's begging the Lord and this is this is one thing that I will say folks if You don't realize this.

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Hopefully you never realize this the hard way But when you keep when you pressure like you try to force your will on God a lot of times

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God will give you over to that and he did that with Balaam He gave Balaam over to his desire for money and Balaam seems like he's doing okay

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Because he's saying I'm only gonna say what God lets me say And this is a case where he gets on his donkey and the donkey sees the

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Lord But Balaam doesn't and the donkey like keeps Brushing up, you know and and hurting

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Balaam as he gets his legs caught in things and won't move and that he's smacking the donkey and the donkey ends up talking and Then he sees the

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Lord with a fiery sword and says, oh, okay But when he goes there in you end up seeing in in chapter 22 23 24

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Balak asks brings him to the high places to see Israel and curse them and and three times

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Balaam blesses them and Balak gets upset and basically said

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I'm not giving you the money because I told you to to curse them and they

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They end up blessing instead. So he so he kind of feels he got He was paying him to do one thing, but he says hey,

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I told you I can only say what God says Now in numbers 25 what's credited to Balaam the council of Balaam is

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Balaam really wants the money He can't get it. He doesn't and this is something folks There's a lot of people they want to seem spiritual.

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I'm gonna do the right thing I think they seem spiritual but their whole time their heart is given over in this case with Balaam to greed

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And so he Balaam wanted the money But he wants to seem spiritual and how he gets it

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So instead of cursing he knows he's he's not gonna curse Israel because God hasn't given him to that to say

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So what does he do? He ends up Convincing Balak to say hey give your wives to them or give your daughters to them.

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They'll marry them as wives God will then Judge them for that because they shouldn't do that and then you don't have to worry because their own

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God Will end up cursing them and so that is actually what did end up happening

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And so that is the council that what's known as the council of Balaam. So with that as a background, we're in numbers 24

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And that you and so you had some questions with this from 17 to 20 so I'll ask a shop you wouldn't mind reading the sections you want to discuss and then

16:22

We could and then I'm gonna need to have your understanding of what you what your question is

16:29

All right for sure So numbers 24 and 17 reads as such. I shall see him but not now

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I shall behold him but not nigh there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel and Shall smite the corners of Moab and destroy all the children of Seth since there's so much being said

16:50

We can do a section by section sure 17 okay So my analysis of this is a prophecy talking about a day when who the world calls

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Christ will come the scepter rising out of Jacob and out of Israel and it's saying that one day he's gonna smite the corners or interpreted in other translations as princes of Moab and Destroy all the children of Seth.

17:18

This is to be interpreted as a lot of the children of Seth Because he's not going to destroy everybody on the planet of earth

17:27

What would your analysis be? Well So looking at this so I He's he's talking here about you know, this isn't you know, verse 15 is actually where he starts the discourse, right?

17:42

It's an oracle of Balaam, right? Who an oracle of the man whose eye is uncovered and I'm reading out of the legacy standard.

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Is that that okay with you? Yes, okay Ash I'm sorry. I'm sorry ash

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Forgive me for that. And by the way, there's a just for folks listening. There is a crackling noise on ash when he speaks

18:06

I was hearing that so I'm sure what that is. It might be some feedback Or electronics near the the mic just so people know

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The so it says the the oracle hears the Word of God and knows the knowledge of the

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Most High who bears the vision of the Almighty Falling down yet having his eyes opened and then to what you read.

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I see I see him But not now I behold him but not near a star that comes forth from Jacob a scepter from the rise of Israel and And shall crush the head of Moab tear down the sons of Seth so Moab being one of the areas that Really wasn't truly crushed.

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I until David's time and so I You know, this is someone who's who's rising up from Jacob from the the people of Israel and so from this one verse,

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I'm gonna look at this and say, you know it if it's speaking of an individual

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You know, I and I don't know that it is I Would you know if it's an individual maybe maybe

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David? but I think more what it's speaking of is just the fact that then that the Nation of Israel as the

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Israelites come in and remember that the context right that this is the The Israelites are coming in conquering

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Balaam is being told to to Curse them so that they're that they won't take over Balak and so Balaam is telling

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Balak and You know all of the the people there that you know, they are going to conquer

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So, I don't I don't know that it's a if I can say it's a specific person but the fact that it's it mentions

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Moab I mean if you go back and let me just give some context numbers 22 won't one and Then the sons of Israel set out and camped in the plains of Moab Beyond Jordan opposite Jericho.

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So when we think about where they are there, you know, he's saying this that you know, so that Basically Israel is gonna rise up And they're gonna rise up You know, and they're in they're in that land.

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So there it's it's that they're gonna crush Moab I think that this is within I think he's speaking within that time frame in numbers

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So it could be the Israelites themselves That are there at that time and that I think would be more fitting with the immediate context

20:47

Fair enough, and then I'm sorry that was a little bit longer, but I'm just trying to give some of the context

20:53

Nice alright, so Moving on it says and Edom shall be a possession

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Seer also shall be a possession for his enemies and Israel shall do valiantly

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This adds more of the context of the prophecy this is the first This is the first glimpse that we get of what's gonna happen to Mount Seir after the

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Prophets have seen Isaiah the 63rd chapter Well, let's stay within If we can just making a reference of it, okay

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Okay, but I'm saying it's it's founded on future prophecies where it says that we are going to Extinguish Edom.

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There's also another prophecy in Obadiah where Edom will be Extinguished and their land will be inhabited by the

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Israelites So, you know, I would say that this remains to appear to be a future prophecy because the extermination of Esau didn't happen, especially during the time of David and Israel as a whole didn't go to war with the

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Edomites to Nearly extinguish them on any level. What would your analysis be of that portion?

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So, let's let's see this is All right, I was trying to you mentioned so I was trying to look it up so so you're talking verse 18

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So and Edom shall be a possession so you know

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I Think that what this is talking about is the fact that again, I think it's sticking with that context

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The is it's a it's a promise. The Israelites are going to take over not only Moab, but Edom You Know that they're there, you know, they're

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Valently, it's just I think it's continuing with the fact that they're gonna have that they would have a complete destruction or Of the the nations that are in the land

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So to your recollection did that happen during David's time It it actually happened during Joshua's time

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But not completely It happened in David's time to an extent as well

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But again, you know, there's the the a lot of the people I think died out over over time just being restricted in areas a lot of the

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Different tribes in that land, you know in the the land area that we're talking about of Israel Really I think when when you have the

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Assyrians came in and they just moved people you know the Israelites and this is just a side note, but one of the things people always ask why are all the the the the

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Israelites have all these laws these these Holiness laws or separation laws and and really

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I think what it was was when they were taking captive into captivity it was that That separation from the the

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Gentiles that kept them as a nation where all the other nations just kind of Blended in became a melting pot and and we're lost

24:17

Absolutely. So what I want to buckle down on before we move on because I think it's important to follow linear logic when someone says something to nail down what they've said with Scripture and I'm glad that you mentioned that, you know, these things didn't happen entirely

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That they were partial the prophecy says that these things are going to be happening on a absolute basis, so Where that where it says it's an absolute basis, so it says

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Edom shall be a possession here also shall be a possession for you and Israel shall do valiantly it also says that he's going to Crush the corners of Moab and destroy all the children of Seth The latter end of this prophecy says

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I'm gonna read from 19 to 20 just because the general idea

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It doesn't get it doesn't get too much broader. Okay, so out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion and They'll shall destroy him that remaineth of the city so David was a man of war we can agree upon this fought until he died of an old age and then the nations round about him were quieted so that Solomon could rule the

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Tabernacle of David in peace we can agree on that verse 20 says and when he looked on Amalek He took up his parable and said

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Amalek was the first of the nations But his latter end is that he shall perish forever the proper interpretation is that Amalek is at the top of the nations.

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He wasn't the first nations who exist So what we can look at is that okay?

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We look at first Samuel we see when Saul was instructed to Destroy the

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Amalek. He didn't perish forever because Saul he sought to Keep some of the

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Amalekites alive We see later in the scriptures where there are still agagites roaming a lot of a lot of people

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Believe that the word agagite is a title that goes to Edomite rulership in fact

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Alexander the Great he said he came from the Timani dynasty When you look at his lineage in books like Maccabees and so forth he's rendered as an agagite, but that's that's that's swallowing a lot

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But what I'm saying when I say that it's gonna be something that happened. Absolutely. I'm saying because we have prophecies that say that Edom is still going to be destroyed and it talks about this in Isaiah 63

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So this is where I want to solidify my logic and what I would like for you to do is combat that so it says

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Who is this? That cometh from Edom with dyed garments from Basra.

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That's the capital of Edom Where you at? Isaiah the 63rd chapter.

27:38

Oh, okay. Hold on and what you'll find is that this scripture prophecy about Christ.

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Isaiah 63 what? And I'm starting at verse 1. Verse 1. Okay. Oh Maybe that's why

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I didn't understand. I did I had written down Isaiah 60 1 to 12, but if it was

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Isaiah 63, that was okay Yeah Isaiah 60 is a little bit less specific and it touches on what's gonna happen to all the children of Seth in the latter days

28:07

Isaiah 63 talks about What's going to happen to the Edomites?

28:13

The while he's delivering the children of Israel Okay on the reflect when we're the

28:19

Israelites ever captive to the Edomites But that's neither here nor there at this point

28:24

So it says who is this that cometh from Edom with dyed garments from Basra?

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This that is glorious in his apparel traveling in the greatness of his strength. I That speak in righteousness mighty to say

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Wherefore art thou read and by an apparel and by garments like him that's ready in a wine fat

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So what we're doing again, we're getting the backdrop. We're getting the setting of where this prophecy is taking place.

28:52

It's Edom and this person that is going to be treading down Edom as if he treads in a wine fat is him that is mighty to say this is just Reiterated for the audience because it's a mouthful

29:06

I'm now at verse 3 where it says I have trodden the winepress alone and Of the people there was none with me

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For I will tread them in mine anger and trample them in my fury and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments

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And I will stain all my raiment for the day of vengeance is in my heart and the year of my redeem is come

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So that's where the prophecy is when it comes to what's going to happen to Edom in the last day talking about their absolute destruction

29:42

So are you tying these two passages together just because they both mentioned the word

29:50

Edom Absolutely not. I'm tying them together because we see that Edom wasn't conquered by Israel and their land wasn't taken.

29:58

In fact, it was instructed for them not to take the land of Edom because You know it because I mean,

30:07

I I guess I guess I'm still back in numbers 24 What I'm doing is saying that there's a precedent for my logic in it's that Edom is not destined to have their land taken away from them until the latter days

30:23

When you look in numbers 24 starting at verse 17 It talks about not only

30:29

Edom being a possession but Seir being a possession also, that's their land

30:35

Right when you look at the Israelites when they're making their pilgrimage through the wilderness

30:40

They're instructed by the Most High not to take their land You familiar with that?

30:48

Yeah, so I guess I'm just trying to look up the the word specifically here for Let me just check the wording for for what you have here for possession

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It's Yerusha. Yeah Yeah, cuz

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I mean the word that I mean I was looking up earlier and this is only used in two places and these are the two places so That makes it kind of hard, so let's do some

31:21

Digging into some other books here to see what we could find with that. Yes. It's harder when we have a word

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That's not used in a whole lot of places So I'm gonna because I I guess from the

31:36

English, right I look at this and say well a possession doesn't doesn't dictate in a complete destruction as you were saying

31:47

And in verse 20, I was looking this up earlier because you said that Abimelech Was the first of the nations you said top of the nations and that that was that was one was interesting because that word

32:02

Has the idea of first fruits. It's actually used Not as top but as beginning it's it's the same word in Genesis 1 1 in the beginning

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And so it's more was the first fruits of nations so,

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I don't know if I don't know if that makes a difference with what you're thinking, but Well in the idea of it is in the way the words translated the most is beginning

32:36

It's the idea of the beginning of something the the start of something So the first fruits were usually the the the the first fruit picked at the beginning of the the harvest

32:46

That's the idea of it. So it's a first or beginning And I'm not sure if top when you're saying top are you meaning it as in priority?

32:57

It's it's more so during okay. So what we can look at is that there's a table of nations

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There are a list of nations that are set to rule But they're not described directly when

33:09

Daniel breaks down this prophecy that he gets from Nebuchadnezzar, right? We just know that there's gonna be an order that takes place after Babylon No, we know the nations he tells us it's those from Babylon Medo -Persia

33:26

Greek Rome Right, and then there's the feet of my recruit clay and brass What nation is that?

33:34

That's wrong Rome Rome is the nation of my reclaim and brass

33:40

Yeah, because there seems to be a break in there because it's a continuity So so I I would see that that Meijer that last nation hasn't arisen yet Yeah, and and I would

33:55

I would beg to differ and I would say that that's the Some people call it dispensation that we're living in now

34:01

And I would say that that nation Isn't necessarily a land mass just like Rome wasn't

34:08

I would say that it is a power structure. That's based off of The same elements that Rome was comprised of they've just got a broader reach now

34:19

You know, it's why many people think it'll be like the EU or something like that. It'll be

34:24

I mean, it's it's clear that I mean the way we we we know it's

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Rome as it says that you know, the prince who who you know, whoever destroys the

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The temple it's the prince of that of that nation that comes in the end times.

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So That would I mean Rome destroyed the temple. So So we see so we can we can make certain comparisons and we can have a discussion about this prophecy another day because There are a lot of parallels that need to be drawn and weighed out

35:04

So, you know, I'll accept your answer when it comes to that and we can talk about that another time

35:11

So what we see is that the land of Edom is meant to be trodden down and the

35:16

Edomites with it in the latter days Obadiah also prophesized of this ultimate destruction of Edom So I'm lining those things based off of the fact that Esau wasn't even nearly

35:30

Extinguished. In fact, Herod was an Idumian There was a whole Idumian dynasty reigning during the time of Crec.

35:36

The question would have to become When after that were the Edomites exterminated?

35:42

So we see that there's a continuity of Edomites We see that they still have to be crushed

35:49

Well, okay, but when we look at it So staying with with the context here in verse 18

35:57

Right Edom shall be a possession now granted the word that we have here in Hebrews only used in verse 18

36:04

It's used twice in verse 18. It's the only two usages in the Old Testament So I'm looking at the theological word book of the

36:12

Old Testament because that will go into More usages outside of Scripture. It'll give usages of even root words and so they're they're making the point that it's a possession and a

36:27

Similar word from it is a inheritance so they're making the point that the word possession is is a possession as if as an inheritance and so All that Israel would need to do is take the land which they did do at this time

36:48

To possess Edom Right because they eat him no longer has that inheritance of the land if Israel is now possessing it

36:56

Which which they did at you know in you know after the after numbers, right?

37:03

We we have them taking the land in Joshua's time Can you demonstrate

37:09

Edom being taken and possessed? You mean the land areas, right?

37:17

Yeah. Well, that's the whole book of Joshua talks about the conquering of the land What what I'm saying is can you demonstrate

37:23

Edom specifically with the text like, you know I'm going to Bible verses and I'm not just saying things if you could

37:30

I would like for my own edification If you could demonstrate that with the text Yeah, okay.

37:37

It would it might take me a bit here, but Let me just look up and see

37:42

I can at least quickly search for Edom and Go through Joshua see if they're mentioned

37:49

But the that that area of land You know what was mentioned let's see so it looks like Joshua 15

38:01

Talks about that. So let's look up Joshua 15 and see alright, so Joshua 15 it does say now

38:19

Now the lot of the tribe of the sons of Judah According to their families reached the border of Edom southwest to the land to the wilderness of Zin to the extreme south

38:33

So the south border was from the lower end of the Salt Sea From the bay that turns to the south

38:44

So, let's see As verse 21 now the cities at the far end of the tribe of the sons of Judah toward the back the border of Edom to the south were

39:00

Kebziel and Eber and Jagar so I mean it

39:09

If I'm looking at Joshua 15, it seems that Judah was in the land where Edom had been

39:16

So you wonder where it said the border, you know, yeah, I'm curious as to how we look at the border of Edom Yeah, no, you know, it's a good point

39:30

I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is Really quick see if we could pull up a map of the area

39:36

So why you look for that? I would like to look at a couple of scriptures to just just showing why

39:43

I strongly resist that ideology Because when you look at numbers 20 It says and Edom said unto him thou shall not pass by me

39:53

Like they wouldn't even let us pass through to get to the land We were going to at least I come out against thee with the sword and the children of Israel said unto him

40:02

We will go by the highway and if my cattle drink thy water, then

40:07

I will pay for it I will only without doing anything else go through on my feet

40:14

Thou shall not go through and Edom came out against him with much people and with the strong hand

40:20

Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border. Wherefore Israel turned away from him so we need to be able to produce a text that talks about a

40:32

Conflict between the Israelites where there was some conquering going on. Okay.

40:37

Yeah, so let let's Let me see I could share this screen

40:44

This would make it easier for folks See where is the map there we go.

40:52

Okay, so let's bring this up. So this is the area we're discussing for folks looking at the map so if we're looking at this map and I'm gonna have to describe this for those who are

41:02

Watching on or listening on podcast So up at the very top of the wind of the screen there is

41:09

Sea of Galilee just you have an idea Goes down to the Dead Sea. So this is just to You know just under the

41:19

Dead Sea just to the to the east of the Dead Sea is where Moab was South of that is where Edom is

41:28

Okay. So if we were to look at this during the

41:35

Solomon's time We we end up seeing here that Edom is moved and Moab, you know, well, actually not too much from this area, but we end up seeing at least here

41:49

I'm trying what I want to look for is the 12 tribes because this is the

41:56

This is under the United Kingdom. Let's see.

42:01

I wonder if we could just type 12 tribes It helped me to come upon better conclusions as well if you don't mind while you find that Going to another text and I now

42:24

I don't want to assume anything Was Israel able to occupy any land when the most

42:30

I was against them? When was the most high against them? For example, we told the

42:37

Israelites don't go up against a certain nation. That's That's paraphrasal.

42:45

I Would need to know which verse I didn't want to do that.

42:55

Okay, so here's where You're looking for the breakdown of the allotment of Israelite Yeah, that's that's exactly what

43:03

I'm trying to look for Here we go, this one's probably it okay, so Come on,

43:15

I have my mouse my mouse battery died. So I'm using my trackpad, which is not as good So if we're if we're looking if we're looking here, it looks like Although I don't see the color coding to see

43:30

I'm Because there were on the west side of Jordan.

43:38

There should be two and a half tribes Right and so It looks like here if I'm looking on this map

43:53

Moab would have been just underneath here with Edom underneath so Yeah, I mean this was the difficulty thing and not having the

44:14

Knowing exactly what your question is to be able to prepare for it to Answer so so part of this is

44:20

I'm not I I don't know the exact answer to the question Because I haven't

44:27

Researched it. I'm trying to take a look at these just to see if we have This is during the time of the judges now

44:41

Maybe that'll definitely Oh, yeah you

44:49

Yeah, let's see. Yeah, I'll stop sharing you show me what what if you have a map that shows what we're looking at So he tells

44:56

Joshua Oh, okay, so the most high tells

45:02

Joshua through Moses don't be afraid or dismayed This is which what passage?

45:09

This is gonna be Joshua 7 that I'm reading from and I'm just gonna start from verse 2 But I'm just giving a little bit of a backdrop for context sake

45:19

Okay, I instruct us not to be afraid or he'll allow us to be confounded before our enemies

45:26

Right, so this is an example of what happens when the most high is against us we're not able to Take ground as well.

45:33

We'll say so it says and Joshua sent men from Jericho to AI which is beside Beth Avon on the east side of Bethel and Spoke unto them saying go up and view the country and the men went up and view

45:46

AI And they returned to Joshua and said unto him let not all the people go up But let about two or three thousand men go up and smite

45:56

AI and make not all the people to labor divot For they are but few

46:01

So there went up there the people about 3 ,000 men and they fled before the men of AI and the men of AI Smote of them about thirty and six men for they chased them from before the gate even unto

46:16

Shabirim and smoked them In the going down smoked them in the going down where for the hearts of the people melted and became as water and Joshua ran his clothes and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the

46:32

Lord until the eventide He and the elders of Israel and put dust upon their heads and Joshua said alas

46:41

Oh Lord God Wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan to deliver us into the hand of the

46:49

Amorites to Destroy us would God we had been content and dwelt on the other side

46:56

Jordan. Oh Lord What shall I say when Israel turn at their backs before the enemies?

47:01

for the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it and shall in In your illness around and cut off our name from the earth and what will thou do unto thy great name and the

47:14

Lord said I'd sue Joshua get me up. Wherefore lies thou thus upon my face?

47:21

Israel hath sinned and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them for they have taken of the accursed thing and have also stolen and Dis and dissembled also and they have put it even among their own stuff

47:38

So this is concluded that verse 11 the point that I'm making is that while God was making very specific

47:45

Instructions with the ill rights in the wilderness telling them where to go We're not to go what to take what not to take every time they would disobey

47:54

He would be against them and allow them to be smitten before enemies. It's a bit of a fallacy

48:01

And in believing that the Israelites would be able to conquer the land of Edom when the most

48:07

I Explicitly told them not to even meddle which Edom's possession which was their land

48:13

And so I'm gonna go to the commandment where this is given if you don't mind. Yeah They just because he made a statement

48:21

Where was I don't see maybe I missed it. Where was Eden mentioned here in Joshua 7 so Edom wasn't mentioned in Joshua 7.

48:29

Okay was Substantiating my logic. Okay. I is continually against the

48:35

Israelites when they disobey and this is Particularly why it took them so long to even be able to reach the promised land

48:43

Okay, that's an example of them coming up against the land to try to take it

48:49

But they did it despite the commandments of God not to take Idols and such things from those nations they were conquering

48:56

So now what I'm gonna do is show you that God told the Israelites not to mess with the

49:02

Edomites land Okay and so what that what that will show us is that if he wouldn't even let them come up against AI because they

49:11

Touched in a cursed thing, which is an idol Because they were taking the idols and they were stripping it for gold

49:17

Right. Let me just ask that you do agree that they later wiped out AI, correct?

49:23

That's because they had repented. Okay, right. There's no repenting from doing something that God said

49:29

Don't do by in fact going in and doing it Explain what

49:35

I mean Deuteronomy 2 and 4 Deuteronomy Say I'm sorry.

49:41

Were you asking for the the text? And I got I was just reciting it for Deuteronomy 2 4.

49:46

Okay, and I'm gonna read down the five It says and command down the people saying you ought to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Israel So it's saying you're supposed to pass through and this is before we were denied passage and water by them, right?

50:04

I'm just wanna I just want to bring the audience along to make sure I'm not losing everybody So you're to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau Which dwell in seer and they shall be afraid of you take you good heed unto yourselves

50:20

Therefore metal not with them for I will not give you their land

50:25

No, not so much as a foot breath Because I have given Mount Seir unto

50:31

Esau for a possession So what I'm saying is when you see the border that they lived up against the border of Esau But we weren't allowed to take a inch of their land into their possession

50:43

Okay, so it's not so that the land of Edom was taken as a possession during that I guess and just because we're short on on time here

50:56

I guess what I'm trying to figure and I don't I don't mean to be obtuse here I just I'm trying to figure it.

51:03

So I guess what's what's the point of this? Like what's the point? That you're you're trying to get to with this and maybe it's just I just don't see it.

51:11

Maybe I missed something Well, the the point really is just that for truth's sake

51:17

I like to hear what the interpretations are of these texts because oftentimes they're removed from the gospel right when we talk about the gospel a lot of people think that those

51:30

The whole thought of it was only mentioned starting with the New Testament When we start to see the gospel all the way in the

51:37

Torah Numbers 24 is just an example of what's gonna happen when the tabernacle of David is

51:43

Reestablished and I wanted to see if the panel had a grasp of that when

51:48

I say the tabernacle of David I'm sure you're familiar Christ being Of that Davidic line and him ultimately being the ruler of the house of David and all of Israel when his reign comes

52:02

People don't really get what that's gonna look like although the scriptures talk about it all throughout and its illustration

52:11

Contradicts the the common belief about what salvation even is or what the good news okay, good because I want to I want to ask that because you're saying this is not mentioned in the gospel and And so I guess as you're saying

52:26

Let me make sure you you understand I do want to say so what

52:31

I want to ask is I want to ask this question of you Where do you say with the gospel? Could you communicate to me?

52:39

What you mean by the gospel? What do you believe the gospel is? What what is the gospel message? I'm saying that people don't understand oftentimes that Numbers 24 is a part of the gospel.

52:57

Yes So that's that's why I'm asking what you'd explain the gospel because I'm trying to understand how you link

53:04

This to the gospel Okay, so let's let's let's build off of that I'm sure you would agree that the tabernacle of David being rebuilt is part of the good news, right?

53:18

I don't know that I'd agree with that because I don't understand how you you're I mean, I wouldn't see the tabernacle

53:27

Yeah, well, let's do this, okay, why don't why don't you explain what Your understanding of the gospel and then

53:34

I can explain mine. Does that sound fair? Okay, so A little quicker.

53:40

So when you go to the book of Luke chapter 1 you started about verse 67 approximately

53:47

Zechariah's the father of John the Baptist Talks about what the gospel looks like and It's that Israel will be delivered from the hand of their enemies and out of the hand of all that hate them so that they can

54:00

Serve the Lord without fear Other Israelites shared this sentiment during Christ's time even when he came back to visit after his death looking at passages like Acts chapter 1 starting at verse 5 where they what they were looking for was for Israel to be restored

54:20

Right and Christ said that you know, it's not the time right now and it's not for you to know the time

54:26

So that's good news if you're under Roman Dominion and you only get a limited autonomy because your oppressor allows it

54:36

It's good news that you're gonna be delivered out of that. So Israel being

54:42

Given the opportunity to repent from their sins being put back in the land that their forefathers

54:48

Were promised because all Israel wasn't there during the time of the Romans, for example

54:55

There's a there's a laundry list of things that they were promised So the tabernacle of David is a part of that That they will be one in the

55:08

Lord's hand pursuant to Ezekiel the I believe the 37th chapter No more two houses, but one

55:15

Okay so Yeah, that's So, let me see it.

55:22

Let me summarize it and make sure I understand this, right? Because I want to make sure I'm understanding you so you would you'd be saying that the gospel the good news for the

55:33

Israelites was the idea of being released from Roman occupation

55:41

Of their enemies, okay I just use

55:48

Rome as an example Okay, all right So Yeah, I mean it would be but it's

56:01

I I don't think it's the good news That we see in the scriptures, but Christ goes as far as to Describe it.

56:11

If you look at Luke 4 Starting at verse 16. He reads a passage from Isaiah the 61st chapter

56:20

And he says this I'm gonna start at verse 17. There was delivered unto him the book of the prophet he says we can agree that that's a it's more of a

56:31

Grek Greco transliteration of Isaiah. Yeah. Yeah, he had opened the book.

56:37

He found the place where it was written The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel unto the poor

56:45

He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives and Recovering of sight to the blind to set at Liberty them that are bruised to preach the acceptable year of the

56:59

Lord Right, and that's also mentioned in that text. I showed you earlier Isaiah the 63rd chapter

57:06

Closed the book and he gave it again to the minister and sat down and the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue

57:13

Upon him and he began to say unto them this day is this

57:19

Scripture fulfilled in your ears, so he's preaching this doctrine about salvation for the captives the the cold part about this is that the

57:31

Passage from Isaiah 61 that he read is only part of the prophecy and the rest

57:37

Hasn't taken place Israel being saved from their enemies. It includes them being established on a pedestal like they were promised in 28 chapter but In short,

57:52

I just wanna make sure so in short you're saying that the essence of the gospel message is freedom from their oppressors

57:59

The essence of the gospel is that the Son of God was gonna die

58:04

So that the Israelite sins could be purged Okay, that's the first you're mentioning that so It's not if we review the footage.

58:15

I said that they were going to get an opportunity To repent so Christ is gonna die

58:20

He's gonna deliver the children of Israel out of their sins because their sins is what's keeping them in captivity

58:28

Right, and then they will be given back the land to their forefathers When you look at these prophecies they start all the way in the

58:36

Torah and they don't even understand why they're being told Well that that I'll agree with because you end up seeing right in Genesis 3 when the curse is given to the serpent that a

58:52

Promise of a child that will come and crush the head of the serpent And so so, you know we have that so let me explain what my understanding of the good news and Then I'm gonna bring someone in that a guest backstage

59:11

See if it to see if he wants to add more to it But here here'd be the thing that I I'm gonna say

59:17

I mean you brought up Luke 1 and I think Luke 1 77 tells us it what the good news is is

59:25

To give to give to his people the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness of their sins

59:32

Because of the tender mercies of our God And so I think if we want to go back to the

59:39

Old Testament, we see the promise of a new covenant We we see this in in I think

59:49

I had the wrong verse here, but Jeremiah thought about his Well, say again 31 31, yeah 31 30 why for some reason

59:57

I had 29 29, I don't know why I did that Yeah What happens to me a lot and but at least when

01:00:05

I'm wrong, I'm consistently wrong It's really bad, but but the promise of a new covenant and you see us also in Ezekiel You're gonna see us in Ezekiel 36 25 and following and when we look at those the promise of the new covenant

01:00:20

And this is something I think a lot of Christians take for granted You you had the nation of Israel where you had you you had an intermediary between us and God It you we had this priesthood the the

01:00:36

Levites, which is my my family background They were this this intermediary between God and men people couldn't go directly to God And so what you end up seeing is these passages speak about the fact that you know in this new covenant

01:00:53

We no longer need to have an intermarriage, but the

01:00:58

Spirit of God is going to indwell us and Therefore we no longer need a priesthood because we'll be a priesthood of believers

01:01:07

And and so that becomes the the the promise there that we see

01:01:13

In those two passages that God's gonna put his spirit within us so But the point of it in really in Luke 177 was the key is the good news was not that we would that the

01:01:32

Israelites would would conquer their their you know the Romans That that was the teachings of the

01:01:39

Pharisees But those I mean those are the very people that taught that are the very people Jesus condemned as hypocrites over and over again because When you say that because you're you're substantiating

01:01:55

Zacharias as a proper witness But you're also saying part of what he said doesn't count

01:02:03

So what do you mean? What do you mean part of what he says doesn't count? You were saying a part of the gospel

01:02:11

Wasn't that the Israelites would be delivered from Roman rule, I believe that there might be some

01:02:18

Confusion there because I know I didn't say it I'm saying that the Israelites had an expectation that because Christ was on the team

01:02:25

The scene and the prophecies that they read about him They believed that they would be delivered from Rome and all their yeah, but they never were delivered from Roman rule

01:02:34

But no and I mean they were there were these that are still few I'll say still future to where when

01:02:43

Christ returns he will he will rule and You know, he will rule over all the nations.

01:02:51

So but I'm gonna say that's still future And the part of will deliver the

01:02:57

Israelites from their enemies, right? um, I Guess yeah,

01:03:04

I mean in the end times Just for because the audience is more it's more about them, right?

01:03:11

One in 68. This is what Zacharias knew I'm gonna start at 67 So we can see that he wasn't disillusioned about what he what he was saying either it says father

01:03:21

Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost and Prophesied saying bless be the

01:03:26

Lord God of Israel for he had visited and redeemed his people He made that purchase with his blood right he has raised up a horn of salvation

01:03:36

For us in the house of his servant David as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets

01:03:42

Which have been since the world began? That we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all that hate us

01:03:51

To perform the mercy promised to our fathers and remember his holy covenant The oath which he swear unto our father

01:03:59

Abraham That he would grant unto us that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies

01:04:05

Might serve him without fear Listen and righteousness before him all the days of our life and thou

01:04:12

Child shall be called the prophet of the highest But thou shalt go before the face of the

01:04:17

Lord to prepare his ways to give knowledge of salvation Unto his people by the remission of sins

01:04:24

Through the tender mercy of our God whereby the day spring from on high

01:04:30

Hath visited us to give light unto them that sit in darkness And in the shadow of death to guide our feet unto the way of peace so just when we when we look at all of that a large portion of that is well and and and that's but that's that's

01:04:48

Zacharias speaking this right of the Holy Spirit you're having a mixture of The first and second coming in there, but when we speak of the good news, let me turn to 1st

01:04:59

Corinthians 15 And just start in verse 1 now I make known to you brothers the gospel

01:05:05

So he's making known to what the gospel is. So let's look at it I make known to you brothers the gospel which

01:05:10

I proclaimed as good news to you Which also you received in which also you stand

01:05:20

By which also you were you are saved if you hold fast

01:05:25

The word which I proclaim to you as good news unless you believing for nothing for I delivered to you as The first importance that which

01:05:37

I received that Christ died for our sins According to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose the third day

01:05:48

According to the scriptures. So there's the three elements of the gospel that Jesus Christ died

01:05:55

Was buried and rose again. So so now let and and this is gonna be something

01:06:00

Ash let me say and I know you're gonna disagree with and so I'm just I'm Caveating that because you and I already kind of had some conversation you know, so but What what makes

01:06:13

Christianity unique from every world religion? There's three things but essentially it's a every world religion because they are every man -made religion is based on human effort

01:06:24

They have to do something that it could be faith plus works, but you're adding works That's the

01:06:30

Catholic Church, you know, Islam would be one good deed counts for ten bad, you know the modern Judaism We would call rabbinic

01:06:36

Judaism. It's doing Torah doing laws. You're just obeying the rules Each of those are man -made

01:06:43

Works and so because those systems are based on man -made works They all are about a system of morality of doing right and not doing wrong

01:06:55

Christianity as we see in 1st Corinthians 15 is based on a person not works and that's the the whole chapter here is talking about the resurrection and the importance of the resurrection because if Jesus Christ is not

01:07:10

God Then we're dead in our sins and and that's the importance of and this is where you and I are gonna differ because you don't

01:07:16

Believe Jesus is God But let me at least explain to you, you know what the biblical gospel is

01:07:22

So you at least hear it and understand it is that if Jesus Christ because it's based on Jesus Okay, the gospel because not a moral system because of who

01:07:33

Jesus is being truly God He can pay an eternal fine and pay it for more than one person.

01:07:39

So you and I Ash, I mean you may be more moral than me. I'll grant that to you

01:07:45

But both of us break God's law and both of us would be criminals and sinners in God's sight

01:07:52

I would like for you to demonstrate how I break the law because you you you can say that all have sinned which yes

01:07:59

That's the breaking of law. Have you ever have you ever told a lie? But what I said was you would need to prove that I break the law.

01:08:07

Well, I'm asking have you have you ever lied? Yes, the point that I'm making is that you cannot say that I break the law because I have broken the law

01:08:15

Okay, would if someone raped someone would we call them a rapist? Yes, we would.

01:08:21

So if if you are if you broke God's law thou shall not lie. Are you a lawbreaker?

01:08:28

I Am a somebody who is a criminal in essence of the law, but we're talking about Born of God, right?

01:08:37

Well, we're not there yet No, I mean we are there because we're talking about Christ, right?

01:08:43

Well, the thing is that if You need but the need for Christ is that we have we are lawbreakers

01:08:50

We're criminals in his sight, but then when he let's use the woman who was caught in adultery, for example

01:08:57

Well, that's that would be a bad argument to use because it wasn't in the original

01:09:03

Bible Let's hear the argument because it's still a great example

01:09:08

He tells her go thy way and sin no more and that's the whole idea here

01:09:15

You become reborn and you sin no more. Is that do you not sin anymore?

01:09:22

That's correct. So you believe in sinless perfectionism? No, I don't.

01:09:27

Well, you just said you don't sin anymore. I didn't say anything about sinless perfectionism You're at you just put an ideology in my mouth and you kind of Yet he was perfect what that's because Jesus was because he was

01:09:46

God No, I said I said David was perfect. David was perfect perfect when he committed adultery and Killed the husband.

01:09:56

So now what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to contradict the text Does the Bible say that David was perfect before God?

01:10:04

What do you mean by perfect now? I? Mean what the Bible defines it is but no no, no, no, because you're using it two different ways.

01:10:11

It's a fallacy of equivocation you were perfect Doesn't always mean you have established for me what my idea of perfect is

01:10:20

So that's a lot so is is perfect is perfect meaning you never sin. No, it doesn't mean that Okay, but that's how you just use it

01:10:29

How Please say what I said that tells you that you can be you have to not sin to be perfect So you you said

01:10:41

You said you don't sin, right? Right and yet scripture says that if someone says they don't sin

01:10:49

They're lying in First John I said that sin is transgression of the law.

01:10:55

I said that if you commit a sin then you are someone who has sinned

01:11:01

I Don't I don't know where you get that last part Okay, so What a sin what sin is is transgressing the law, right?

01:11:10

Okay, and I have done that and you've done that and but you don't you're saying you don't do that anymore Right because I've been reborn in Christ Okay So when when

01:11:19

John speaks to believers and says in first John 1 10 if we say we have not sinned

01:11:25

We we make him a liar and his word is not in us and you're saying you don't sin

01:11:30

I didn't say I have not sinned. I said I don't sin That's why I said there's a difference between saying

01:11:36

I don't sin and I have not sinned. Okay, so why now? That's why you know,

01:11:43

I think what he's trying to say is once he was in Christ, he's he's never sinned anymore, right? Yeah Text refutes him

01:11:56

I Would appreciate I'm just saying

01:12:02

I'm saying what you said. No, you're not you you just said that I was playing word games

01:12:07

Because because that's what it is because we're what we're saying is we're saying that Everyone sins.

01:12:14

Yes before we before we are in Christ. We are sinners We are transgressing the law once we come to Christ We we do still sin because that's part of our fallen nature we are not yet made perfect in Christ This of being made holy so we are growing in holiness, but we still sin we sin both by commission and by omission

01:12:41

Well, I'm sorry he wants to know if you're born from God yes So Ash let me let let me do one thing cuz

01:12:51

I I mean you got You had a good 40 45 minutes really kind of uninterrupted other than a couple clarifying things and and I want to try to explain

01:12:59

The gospel to you that that's cool. But I want to correct Andrew real quick Yeah, we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that Wicked one toucheth him not which verse is that after three in verse nine says whoever is born of God Are you in the text?

01:13:20

I'm at first John 3 and 9 at this point Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him

01:13:27

Okay, not sin because he is born of God and who is it that John is speaking to?

01:13:33

John would be speaking to us the Israelites. Yeah, but what's the issue that he's addressing? He's addressing sin

01:13:40

No, no, no, what group The circumcision. Well, he you know, he's speaking because there's long past the circumcision is an issue

01:13:49

He's speaking to Gnostics the early Gnostics the Gnosticism taught one of the things

01:13:56

Gnosticism taught is you can sleep with a prostitute and not sin as long as you'd only let your flesh do it and not your spirit and So what you end up having is he's speaking to people who were justifying sin

01:14:09

They were they were sinning as a pattern just not calling it sin Okay Corrected on that, but does that change what he's saying?

01:14:18

Oh, yeah, because he's speaking of a pattern of life Now he's not saying you never sin He's saying he's saying if people claim because he earlier he said if you if you if you claim that you don't sin

01:14:29

You make God a liar But now what he's doing is he's expressing to them their arguments and he's making a black -and -white issue to say look if you say you can live in sin and just do whatever you want and Practice sin.

01:14:46

You're not a believer a Believer is not someone who's going to be characterized by like this is why

01:14:52

I have an issue of people that say they're a gay Christian Right, because what are they doing?

01:14:59

They're saying I live my identity is in my sin Right. I'm a Christian.

01:15:04

No, you're not You know, just this is that's the exact thing that first John's addressing is you can't be where your pattern of life is

01:15:13

Identifying yourself by your sin and saying that's gonna be You know who

01:15:19

I am and then say I'm a Christian Ash do you believe that Paul was an apostle?

01:15:25

Yep. Do you believe that Paul was born of God? Okay, so what do we do with Paul the

01:15:33

Apostle Who says that he still struggles against sin and he still struggles against his flesh

01:15:39

Actually, he said he's the chief of sinners and that's later in life Actually, it's an interesting thing I learned in seminary was

01:15:45

I never thought about it and I studied it out But if you look at Paul chronologically in his writings He has a worse and worse view of himself as he got older like at first he was you know

01:15:55

He's he struggles with sin. He has sin By the end of his life. He's the chief of sinners

01:16:04

We could be a lot more detailed and we can grow in understanding but you guys are kind of going to different points

01:16:13

And I do want to stick to finishing in the gospel, but this is where if our friend Matt slick was here

01:16:20

What he would do is get under your skin and annoy you until you get angry and then point out that you still do

01:16:26

But Anger is not a sin

01:16:38

If you get angry out of selfishness sure it is Okay, so but but well now you're laying a context.

01:16:44

Oh, yeah, because you can be angry for God's for God's sake And it's not a sin be angry and do not sin.

01:16:50

We see that in Psalms, I forget now. I want to say 14 But but here here's the here's the what

01:17:03

I was pointing out earlier and this is what I think is the gospel message is the fact that What what makes

01:17:09

Christianity unique is the fact that? You have a person

01:17:17

Holy God Being fully God he can pay the full consequence of sin, which is eternity in a lake of fire all liars

01:17:25

Which includes all three of us because you've admitted you you've lied I know I've lied and I know

01:17:31

Drew's lied before he once said I was a nice guy. I know he lies But no, we've we're all liars all liars

01:17:38

According to Revelation have their place in a lake of fire which burns a brimstone just called the second death That's where all of us deserve to go for all of eternity

01:17:47

However, what makes Christianity unique is that Jesus died that death was for our sins?

01:17:55

He paid the punishment of sin was buried Rose on the third day according to the scriptures

01:18:04

The the rising from the dead vindicated that he was God because he said he'd rise himself from the dead

01:18:11

So the and this is a difference in the gospel message Between us and and a gospel message that's good that literally leads to heaven or hell because if we don't believe

01:18:23

Jesus Christ is God then we're dead in our sins because we have a Temporal being and a temporal being cannot pay an eternal fine can only pay a temporal fine

01:18:33

It would have taken Jesus forever to pay it as a temporal being Being an eternal being being

01:18:39

God the Creator as we see in Colossians 1 and elsewhere that he created all things

01:18:46

Everything that was created was created by him and through him and for him It's that way what we see is he can pay that eternal fine having been truly human

01:19:00

He can be a substitute for you and I and and that's the gospel message that we see according to Paul in 1st

01:19:06

Corinthians 15 The good news is that Christ came he died was buried rose again vindicated by his resurrection proving he was

01:19:17

God proving that we will rise from the dead and Have the forgiveness not everybody but those who are in Christ so No, I know it's it's it's a little bit later than we planned.

01:19:29

I do have someone backstage. I want to bring in a Friend of mine who I this is one of these drew.

01:19:35

I don't know if you know this story but I was I was preaching in New York City and When you're preaching in New York City, you see a lot of people

01:19:44

And I remember turning I just happened to turn behind me and I see a guy and I said, hey that guy looks an awful lot like vocab

01:19:53

Malone Actually was vocab Malone He happened to be in New York for an event and then

01:20:00

I saw some will walk over to him say hey vocab alone And I was like, oh that actually is vocab so Vocab.

01:20:09

Well, welcome. I'm glad that you were able to join us. I know you were listening in I want to open up to you to first off, you know, let you introduce yourself in your ministry

01:20:19

It's been a long time since you've been on here. So if folks can know who you are and then Any any questions you have or or comments?

01:20:26

Sure. Yeah, my name is vocab Phoenix and do apologetics in a city context dealing especially with Heber's lights and other things like that and got a

01:20:36

YouTube channel and youtube .com slash vocab alone and Yeah, you guys do interesting stuff here and I see you had been talking to ash

01:20:47

Looks like he makes the rounds on the apologetic shows to get content for his channel So I think that's sort of his mo

01:20:56

Which is interesting sort of parasitical in nature Sounds like the little back -and -forth he and I has gonna end up there

01:21:05

I'll have you know He's definitely gonna use and if he does if he does like what he does wouldn't when he was on my show

01:21:12

He'll put you in a Ku Klux Klan outfit. So I was very kind to him all the times he came on I would let him speak or refer to him with respect and then

01:21:21

I listened to the program and all kinds of names and all kinds of Real shady stuff as far as what they're saying

01:21:30

Ungodly and put me in a Klan outfit on the cover image. So he has no honor He's a dishonorable man and his whole conversation

01:21:36

You guys didn't really see it quite and I know you're trying to be good -natured His whole point of this conversation was try to prove he's gonna own white slaves

01:21:45

Before God gets to kill him all a thousand years and that was a whole point of this conversation Basically is how he's so excited to own slaves

01:21:53

In the kingdom and this is a man who believes that he's not only gonna whip the backs of slaves

01:21:59

But Judas is gonna be alongside of him Owning black slaves as well because they believe they'll own

01:22:06

Africans who are hermitic and they're So this is the person you've been talking to I know you didn't know but I just gave you his bio since he's not gonna

01:22:15

Do it for you I'm gonna

01:22:23

Yeah, that is why you that is why you came on the show That was the whole point of your

01:22:29

Isaiah and Luke That was your whole point of your Isaiah and Luke breakdown, which you stole from Sakari And that's why

01:22:36

I always thought you were part of Sakari because I've noticed all your breakdowns are directly from Sakari You might as well be in their camp.

01:22:43

You're like the triple -a version I wasn't So, where did I mention slavery and Luke you you don't remember when we talked

01:22:52

You said that God willing you'll be able to whip backs God willing maybe even mine and God willing you'll have black slaves.

01:22:59

You don't you don't remember that Let me think I know that in Isaiah the whole point you're trying to say that Slavery is bound up in Jesus's definition of the gospel because you want to go to the end of Isaiah Where it says look you're gonna build our walls

01:23:13

You want to pull a Trump on Africans and that's what you think Isaiah is about So why are you asking me?

01:23:19

Are you asking me when you already know the answer? That there's a destruction of a whole people group and I wanted to find out what they knew about those

01:23:29

Prophecies saying so I wasn't gonna go. Yeah, ash Can you show us in historical record after 70

01:23:37

AD? Any time that anyone from a dumia is mentioned just one No, yeah, you can't find it, you know why ash when did they because they were gone when they're no longer existed

01:23:54

That's why they you can't find any after 70 AD ash Notice how

01:24:02

I asked you a question and you just wanna ask me a question back because you can't really answer questions Well, you ask people questions and to make content out of it, but I'm why

01:24:10

I see your your tricks now That's why your whole game is up when you admit that you can't find anyone from a dumia

01:24:18

Mentioned in the historical record after 70 AD That's when most of them were more all gone is after 70

01:24:23

AD and if we have time I can show you examples where they Get destroyed before that. It was a slow drip. They didn't even have a kingdom in 70

01:24:30

AD Demons fighting with the Israelites in Jerusalem. Did you know that ash that the Aduman's fought with the

01:24:36

Israelites in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Did you know that? Well, it's true. You should read

01:24:41

Josephus. He tells you all about it. And that's the last time any Aduman's are mentioned ash That's it

01:24:50

I asked you who was the last I do me Who was the last

01:24:56

Hittite ash The reason that's a stupid question is for you You're right. Your question was stupid because you don't know the last one's name that doesn't prove they don't exist anymore ash

01:25:05

You said that they were completely destroyed But Obadiah says that the Israelites are going to be the ones that destroy them.

01:25:12

Okay Well, let's let's do that ash let's do that so notice how they don't exist anymore you've already established that You've already established they don't exist anymore now you're switching your contention to oh

01:25:28

It wasn't really the Israelites who did it the way it worked is the Israelites were part and parcel

01:25:34

Ultimately, this is all God. Ultimately. This is all God the Israelites were responsible for a number of their slow

01:25:41

Destructions. This is a thing that happens over time and I can give you a perfect example

01:25:47

That shows you where your initial question was fulfilled. Remember when you brought up numbers 24 in the beginning 2nd

01:25:53

Samuel 8 11 through 14 shows you the fulfillment of that Edom shall be dispossessed

01:25:58

Now, let's look at 2nd Samuel 8 11 through 14 These also King David dedicated to the

01:26:04

Lord together with the silver and gold that he dedicated from all the nations He subdued from Edom Moab the

01:26:10

Ammonites the Philistines Amalek and from the spoil of had it as are the son of Rehab king of Zobah now listen to this listen

01:26:16

David made a name for himself when he returned from striking down 18 ,000 Edomites in the

01:26:21

Valley of Salt then he put garrisons in Edom throughout all Edom He put garrisons and all the

01:26:28

Edomites became David's servants so this shows they don't have their own territory anymore ash because he's literally putting garrisons there and making him

01:26:40

Making him be the fulfillment of this prophecy and numbers because they're his servants

01:26:45

That all the stuff you're looking for that you want to happen to white folks has already happened So have you not read 2nd

01:26:52

Samuel? Chapter 8 verses 11 through 14 where it says they were his servants and he put garrisons on land.

01:26:58

Did you not read that? That was an excellent point. Okay, I have read that but I've also why are you asking these guys this question?

01:27:05

Let me let me finish what I have to say That's that's that's okay, bro after I've seen how you operate

01:27:11

I don't want to let you slip and slide out of it But go ahead Oh Definitely there's lots of slipping aside

01:27:18

That's why you asked me who the last it do me and was when I asked you where they are in the historical record That's an example of your trickery

01:27:26

Now what? What I do know is that there's still a future prophecy about the remnant of Edom being possessed and the rest of the heathen that Are called by the

01:27:36

Lord's name, you know But this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord Amos 9 and 11 talks about excellent

01:27:43

I was hoping you would go there. Great job Tell me about acts 9 being quoted in the

01:27:49

New Testament ash. Tell me what happened in Acts 15, please Thank you for opening up the scripture to Acts 15

01:27:59

No, no, we want to make sure we interpret it through a new covenant lens because you you and I both believe

01:28:05

James is an apostle right now was James right there when he when he referred to the prophecy of Amos 9 that way

01:28:13

Or do you believe like GMS that James went off? Do you believe James went off? It says in that day

01:28:27

And close up the breaches thereof and I will raise up his ruins and will build it is in the days of old

01:28:36

And how come how come James quotes Amos 9 in Acts 15 as if there's a fulfillment

01:28:44

Happening right before their eyes It says this let me let me just read it to you because you don't want to read it

01:28:50

Acts 15 15 says this and with this the words of the prophets agree

01:28:56

Just as it is written after this I will return and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen

01:29:01

I will rebuild its ruins and I will restore it that the remnant of Mankind may seek the Lord and all the

01:29:07

Gentiles who are called by my name says the Lord who makes these things known from old now That doesn't agree with your interpretation so ask you again did

01:29:15

James go off in Acts 15 there I don't think that's all what I think is that when you read

01:29:21

Amos 9 it talks about the heathen being made a possession This is why I wanted to read it from the

01:29:26

Old Testament Because you don't like the New Testament. That's why you wanted to read it from the Old Testament You don't agree with James interpretation.

01:29:33

Do you agree with James interpretation here ash? I didn't say that I don't agree with it. I didn't be a man.

01:29:39

Yes, or no. Do you agree with his interpretation? I don't for one. I agree with it too.

01:29:45

That's not the interpretation of one text And I'm gonna tell you why you're disingenuous because I've told you that when the

01:29:53

Israelites rule again The whole world is gonna seek after God we got to talk about this So I'm gonna read

01:29:59

Amos 9 in that day. I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is falling You need to demonstrate how the tabernacle of David was put back together again and closed up the breaches thereof

01:30:11

And I will raise up his ruin and I will build it is in the days of old How is the tabernacle of David rebuilt as the days of old right now?

01:30:20

Is that a question for me or is that a question for James? Because James says and with this the words of the

01:30:27

Prophet agreed does he not say with this the words of the Prophet agree? Why does he quote a passage? You're claiming needs to be fulfilled by white people in America getting destroyed by a how a shy when here you have him saying

01:30:39

It's being fulfilled with the salvation of the Gentiles. By the way, you were actually Gentiles It is classic it's a classic schooling because the wool has been pulled

01:30:52

So you can appear like I don't have an answer for you and as I try to explain you filibuster

01:30:58

I've told you that the Israelites are gonna have nations in captivity and I've told you that Everybody's going to have to serve

01:31:05

God one day and that's our hope That's all we ever say is that everybody is going to serve

01:31:11

God We just say that it's going to take place where the heathen have to be possessed first Now that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the heathen which are called by my name

01:31:23

Can you read it for James? Can you read it from James, please because James gives you the divine interpretation not the aria interpretation

01:31:35

Debunk James don't I don't need to debunk you you need to debunk James Okay, then why are you not letting him be the divine interpreter of this passage and instead aria is your signal

01:31:54

In my mind You're the one who's into Beating things you told me you can't wait to whip

01:32:07

African slaves But this is a case of me beating your logic nonetheless If you want to call it that James says the remnant of mankind may seek the

01:32:15

Lord and all the Gentiles who called by my name He's not talking about way in the future when you're gonna teach

01:32:20

Moabites the law He's talking about right then because he's saying this is being fulfilled in our viewing after the report of Paul See, you're trying to get away from that, but you need to make sure you stick to acts instead of running off to America What I'm trying to say is that when he talks about everybody turning to God Amos 9 is not about all nations turning to God Exactly That again because that shows you disagree with James It literally says the remnant of mankind may seek the

01:32:53

Lord ash says acts nines Not about them turning though You literally just said I disagree with James, but you don't want to say it because you don't have a backbone

01:33:09

Don't try that hold on I'm gonna show you I'm gonna show you something if James if James tells us ash

01:33:16

That's nine. It is about that. Then you don't get to say axe nines. Not about that. You're missing it

01:33:21

This is the understanding of Amos 9 from axe

01:33:26

So hold on hold on one second here ash ash Okay, ash

01:33:33

I muted you you don't call people on this program demons period you called me a sinner

01:33:40

Because the Bible but so that's God saying that if you have a problem with God bring it up with him

01:33:45

But God says all have sinned you admitted to being a liar that makes you a sinner

01:33:51

That's a total different thing. So let me ask you ash with what he said. I want to find out Do you believe that in the future you will have white slaves?

01:34:03

My answer to vocab was Lord willing So you and black slaves don't forget about that.

01:34:10

Okay, so you you're you're you want to in you are in favor of instituting slavery correct

01:34:17

It's gonna be the most highly institutes the slavery and I'm all for that So are you you're in favor of a person owning another person have a possession, right?

01:34:27

Right. So so that's exactly what God condemns. Thank you. God never had slaves as possession as you just said you're looking forward to You're not looking for the for the same slavery

01:34:39

You Yeah, because when you have cattle There to be returned because their property when you have a runaway slave.

01:34:50

They're not to be returned Because they're slavery and and I'm just gonna say this. I wanted to verify, you know, like look

01:34:56

I I didn't know You know who you were but vocab said something So I'm gonna

01:35:02

I'm gonna check it out. And so as you guys were talking look what I find online

01:35:07

Here was right after last week's show Man, I look good.

01:35:12

Yeah, this looks exactly like you did you exactly what what you're saying? You don't do and vocab is saying you do do you did do

01:35:21

I? Mean right there is is the evidence you did do a show Right from the content here

01:35:28

So are you gonna do another show and I mean, I'm gonna go watch this to see what you're gonna say for one

01:35:34

I'm gonna do a show about this for two. I didn't say what I don't do I said what I wasn't here to do notice

01:35:42

All I did was play a clip of what we talked about. I didn't do any type of Commentary on that So Just just want to show everybody these are the thumbnails ash makes

01:36:04

Notice only one of us ash wants to own black slaves you But you put the

01:36:10

Klan hat on me Yeah, you see and you know what fo

01:36:15

G the more I listen to you It on God You're saying that but I want

01:36:22

I want to bring this up so people can see what it is You said that you came in here and your words here ash confounded another

01:36:31

Christian panel Where you can found it no No, you asked a question and Andrew said because we didn't have time

01:36:41

He would look at the questions you were asking with regard to the text that you gave And I looked at the tag and I'm still not confounded what

01:36:49

I did do was correct some things you said incorrectly I'll tell you who got confounded today was ash when he couldn't name any

01:36:57

Anyone from a dumia being mentioned in the historical record after 70 AD When he couldn't explain how 2nd

01:37:03

Samuel 8 11 through 14 is not a fulfillment of the thing He initially brought up numbers 24 ash got further confounded by James the

01:37:10

Apostle when he literally disagreed with his interpretation But didn't have the cojones to say I'm disagreeing with James interpretation

01:37:17

That's who got confounded ash and confounded by John We don't forget John when

01:37:23

John says if you say you never seen your you may got a liar But when I post the video everybody's gonna see that I didn't say that I tried to demonstrate

01:37:31

How I agree with James's interpretation and I said that it's not only the interpretation

01:37:38

Yes, you disagree with James when you try to make James say that you do not sin as a believer

01:37:44

Because that's exactly what James is not saying. He's talking about something else He's talking about John where John says if anyone says they don't have sin or a liar he's talking about that I'm talking about it says the remnant of mankind may see the

01:37:59

Lord Your next show ash Says ashes

01:38:05

Confounded by a Christian panel because you didn't know what James is talking about.

01:38:10

You just admitted you were confounded I hope you'll be honest So that's you being confounded according to your definition of confounded

01:38:24

I didn't say I don't know what James is talking about I said, I don't have a problem with James's interpretation and it's not just an

01:38:32

Interpretation of one text that's not saying that. I don't know what James is talking about Unless I mean like I can understand that You don't speak the same language as me, but we're both speaking

01:38:45

English here and I said it clearly more than once Well, here's here's what I don't understand You said

01:38:52

God's not for slavery and I understand that there is such a thing as indentured servitude, but there's also

01:38:59

Bondmen that can be yeah. Yeah, but see I was really specific. So don't you see this is This is what

01:39:07

I'm saying Ashley we came on the show to express pros a pro -slavery viewpoints Notice after everything we discussed ash wants to go back to what about that slavery stuff and this shows you what

01:39:17

Hebrew islism is It's not slavery was wrong. It's the wrong people had the whip instead of Indiana Jones.

01:39:24

It should have been Isaac Hayes That's your real problem. It's who had the whip Because you were bringing up with your implicit interpretation because I know what you believe when you wanted to make

01:39:41

Isaiah 60 the gospel Getting there from Luke. That's what you were doing.

01:39:47

Don't don't lie. No, hold on. Wait a minute I'm actually interested in something since you're like Sakari minor league ball

01:39:54

Do you believe it's okay to lie to Gentiles Yeah, okay So this shows this is what

01:40:02

I'm talking about right here This this man this man believes a doctrine that says you can break all ten commandments if it's a

01:40:09

Gentile you do it again So we have no reason to believe anything you say ash This means you could murder this means everything's on on the table on the table for you

01:40:18

Do you believe you can steal from Gentiles ash? I believe it's gonna happen. I think I don't know. No, I didn't ask that.

01:40:24

Do you believe you can steal from Gentiles? Is it is it permitted by God's law forget about man's law under your one

01:40:31

West reading? Is it permitted to steal from Gentiles right now ash if you can why should be harmless?

01:40:37

Why can't you say yes or no, you'd love to ask people questions. And when someone asks you a direct question

01:40:43

You don't answer Ash do you believe right now you can steal from Gentiles?

01:40:50

Yes or no? No, why not? I just said it But but this is the problem because you keep

01:40:57

So you can lie, but you can't steal Hold on but then how is lying to Gentiles being harmless as a dove towards them ash

01:41:06

How does lying to a Gentile harm them? Let's oh, there's a great let's give some examples

01:41:12

Let's say that you give a Gentile incorrect change or take incorrect change

01:41:18

Let's say that you're a stockbroker and you specifically tell the Gentiles. It's one thing when it's another

01:41:23

Let's say that you're an IRS agent and you tell the Gentiles because the Gentiles it's one thing and not another There's all kinds of ways you could harm them from lying to them.

01:41:30

What are you talking about? Okay, I see what you mean. That would be that would be not smart

01:41:36

But is it moral though? Moral yeah, because you're our enemies

01:41:41

Okay, so this so then if you can lie to them towards harm, then why can't you steal from them ash?

01:41:48

Hold on. I want to I mean I think he believes in stealing from Gentiles because he thinks you guys are Gentiles and he's been stealing the time the whole show

01:41:55

Hold on Ash. Did I just hear you? Right? Did you say we are your enemies? Yes Okay, so so you you come on the show in good faith

01:42:05

We gave you what 45 minutes longer than we we were going to and You've you've called one guest a

01:42:13

D a devil or demon. I forget which one Our enemies you're then you're you're then hold on I'm gonna point it because I the purpose of this show is to teach apologetics and I need to teach the audience

01:42:25

What you did so people see it Go back to what he said He claimed with vocab that you know that we're the whole thing when it came to the slavery

01:42:34

That this was an issue where he was that vocab was playing games with words was the accusation

01:42:41

I forget exactly how he said it. But what does he then say? I did not say anything about The slave

01:42:48

I said very specifically this is it okay to own another human being he said yes, and the scripture says

01:42:56

No, then he was The the idea of Slavery no,

01:43:02

I wasn't I was against ownership another human being so you're twisting

01:43:07

What verse Leviticus 25 and 44

01:43:16

Because it juxtaposes a bond servant from guess what an indentured servant

01:43:21

That's why I says there a difference and see this is why and I asked very specific Tonight didn't

01:43:28

I didn't I what did I ask ash? I asked about ownership Ownership.

01:43:34

Yeah, okay Correct. There's two different types of slavery in it and I'd said it's okay

01:43:41

Yes, don't play the games I I didn't talk about the slate different types of slavery in essence

01:43:47

I did I talked about Ownership I talked about possession

01:43:52

You said yes You believe in possessing another human being owning someone the

01:43:59

Bible disagrees with that Because he gives the exact reason of you don't return a

01:44:05

Runaway slave why they're not possession, but a cow is He just asked you a question why don't you answer the question why do you have to return a cow but not a slave

01:44:22

So, you know why they're riled up because they realize who you are now

01:44:27

They didn't know and when I expose it, we don't they don't like they don't like sin and dishonesty

01:44:33

And they don't like people who love violence like you. That's why The problem is when you're riled up and you have an opponent in the audience is watching you said something about ownership

01:44:44

You said thing that's incorrect. I understand that you're riled up. I'd be a little upset

01:44:51

This is great he remember earlier, what's the gentleman's name? I'd appreciate if you don't gaslight me

01:44:56

What do you see doing right now instead of answering the questions of dealing with it? It's because you're emotional. That's that's the issue here

01:45:03

It's not that I'm misunderstanding the text or not that I'm lying or not that I'm a duplicitous two -faced snake

01:45:09

No, that's the problem. The problem is you're riled up Ash answer the questions, please

01:45:20

Answer his questions. What's your real name? What's your real name? Ash? Ash? What's your real name? What's your real name

01:45:27

Ash What's your real name Ash Okay, exactly

01:45:35

This is what I'm saying with this guy I put him in the back. Okay, you put him in the back, okay

01:45:44

I'm sorry. I know you guys don't normally run your show that way I don't normally operate that way with him. But after dealing with him twice and then seeing his program afterwards,

01:45:52

I Wanted to bring it out to let you see what you know in a sense I'm glad I'm good because you know

01:45:58

Look, I'm trying to be polite with people if I don't I don't know who they are because this show you as you know Vocab anyone could come in right?

01:46:05

So, you know, we try to answer questions I if I don't know a passage now granted the background to it

01:46:12

You know because you've dealt with these guys. You've had him on the show I I mean he was going off for 40 minutes 45 minutes and I'm going

01:46:22

Numbers 24 Isaiah 63 I eventually asked like where's this going? Why are we going here?

01:46:28

He was taking you on a rabbit trail to slavery. That was his whole point. No, so when he's when he was doing that My first thought was what's the point?

01:46:37

What's that? What's the big thing? Where are we going? And then when he kept mentioning eat him and everything kept pointing to eat him

01:46:43

I was thinking is he gonna get to He's gonna own eat of mites and they're gonna stomp on our backs and they're gonna they're gonna run us like slaves well,

01:46:52

I yeah, but I Had ready for that Deuteronomy 23 7 because this is one that I bring up when they bring up the eat of mites where it says

01:47:01

You shall not abhor an eat of mite because they always call me an eat of mite

01:47:07

Which I don't get because I'm an actually an Israelite. I think you're in a Malachite. Oh, yeah

01:47:12

They so that their view is so so if you look at Esau's the Senate's one of Zamalek and then that's where you get the

01:47:18

Amalekites from one Wester so this is not all Hebrews like just want to make that clear a lot of a

01:47:23

Lot of Hebrews lights of the non one West Friday believe that if you're Jewish, you're actually of Japheth, which is sort of a

01:47:30

You're still not some Semitic like that But it's less offensive than being of Edom because of what one

01:47:36

Westers how they misuse those prophecies So here you've got him saying in his mind you're of Amalek That's why he may went out of his way to refer to Amalek Remember when he said they're the top what he's saying by that is code language for Jews control stuff

01:47:50

That's what actually what he was saying by that So some of these Hebrews lights since they've ran into the brick wall of Christian apologist

01:47:57

They're taking a subtler tactic now, so they're saying stuff without saying it but then they play it back for their audience who knows the codes and their audience gets all hyped up on one

01:48:07

West gas and So that's what he's doing. So people aren't realizing what they're saying Then he plays as a first audience and they're

01:48:14

Kwame Yoshiro Allen the thing to death because they know what they're implying by it.

01:48:19

I just I'm saying that's kind of what he was doing Yeah, and see I and I wouldn't have picked up on that honestly because I'm not following it like like you do, right?

01:48:29

The thing is is that you know When you said this is what they do and I go out find his YouTube channel and that's exactly you know

01:48:36

I didn't look him up last week. Well saying him specifically I said him specifically because I've had lots of Hebrews lights come on my programs

01:48:42

Smoke room that I do and act very honorably and speak honorably afterwards to me

01:48:49

I don't see it, you know, it's funny because they'll talk about masculinity and all this I do not find it to be masculine or manly when you come on someone treats you with respect and honor and dignity

01:48:58

Even in a disagreement and then you basically talk crap behind their back in a public way and do things like put

01:49:05

Klan hats on Do you see that's not manly that's not masculine stand face to face say what it is and then act the same way in private

01:49:12

With your audience, but he doesn't do that and he's trying to gain notoriety off of it He's trying to call into all the shows and do this is sort of his mo ash come up with some original content

01:49:22

Maybe do that, you know come up with some original content instead of ripping off the the so -called white man If that's where you want to look at it, you know come up with some original content, bro

01:49:31

I mean your derivative of Sakari and now you're derivative of apologetics programs. What is this?

01:49:37

You know, I mean the thing is is that When we look at it, you know, this is pure racism

01:49:45

Okay, when someone sits there and says that because of the color of their skin, they're gonna own other people He's you know, you're not against You know

01:49:55

I mean when you're when you're in favor of slavery of owning another human being as Property and and and I want to be clear.

01:50:04

That's what the question I asked him Yeah, okay. The question was about owning another person as property

01:50:12

So he wants to go. Oh, well, the Bible says there's different kinds Yeah, I know the Bible talks about different kinds of slaves what

01:50:17

I asked him Was not you know these different types of slavery which it is

01:50:22

I asked a very specific question because it's a specific question answered in Scripture and It's one he didn't want to have to address what the scripture says

01:50:31

You know, we looked at the different Hebrew words that he was bringing up and it wasn't meaning what what he was claiming

01:50:37

They were meaning This is the the thing, you know, one of the things that you find and vocab

01:50:43

I know you you've dealt with this a lot We had a we had Hebrews like come in a couple weeks ago as well

01:50:49

Wanted to debate the deity of Christ and that's really folks what I wanted to get to tonight What I was my goal was because I knew he denies the deity of Christ my concern for ash

01:51:00

Is he he he wants to sit there and and and think that God Most High is gonna give him slaves

01:51:07

Possibly I could tell you what God is gonna give him according to Scripture. It's not me saying it ash. It's Scripture You're a liar you

01:51:16

Justified lying you said you can lie to Gentiles. So what it is is it's not that you don't lie anymore

01:51:23

You justify lying and saying it's okay Just like Muslims do to say you're protecting the faith maybe but what you're doing is sinning is as you say you don't sin and What you have to look forward to is eternity in a lake of fire

01:51:39

That's why I wanted to get the biblical gospel explained to him. That was my goal

01:51:45

Because once I realized he denies the deity of Christ, I knew he's destined for hell That's where he's going and and you saw that his gospel message is a political one

01:51:58

It's no different than the Pharisees that are also going to hell That Jesus was gonna come and be a political leader that the

01:52:06

Messiah would be a political leader So so Rob is saying thanks for calling them out vocab And I do thank you for coming in because I Wouldn't have picked up on any of that because I hadn't dealt with these guys, right?

01:52:18

before you know, I was I was texting pastor Darren stid right when vocab came on with the fire and And I said, you know,

01:52:28

I don't I don't look into to Hebrew Israelites I don't but vocabs definitely making me want to right now.

01:52:34

Yeah Yeah, they are growing and Anytime now people go live on places like clubhouse, for example they just swarm the clubhouse rooms and and people were just trying to do like basic Bible studies and they come in there and want to topsy -turvy the whole thing and talk about what they want to talk about and a lot of people were

01:52:56

Unaware that they're even an issue and unaware of their beliefs and they're getting more clever because this is bound to happen

01:53:02

When we first started really opposing them in public about six years ago They weren't ready for it at all

01:53:10

But now some of these guys have been sitting back in the cut and looking at all these people lose battles now they'll never say that because this is a this is a religion of proclaiming victory and Unjustified triumphalism, but they've been watching and they're like we're not gonna take that approach.

01:53:24

We're not gonna take that We're gonna be more subtle and clever and slick We're gonna do things this other way and that's why he didn't want to answer any questions.

01:53:32

That's why he's got certain verses He's trying to connect and drag you guys all over without actually saying what he's gonna say

01:53:37

But then it makes content for him later and you can say oh look I bamboozled these guys. I confounded them That's the word is confounded

01:53:45

That's sort of a word they take from the KJV and then overuse and so that's what's going on And that's really interesting because you know, he's saying it's okay to lie to Gentiles But who's he really lying to his own followers when he says we were confounded

01:53:57

He didn't confound us. I mean, I'm gonna go back and listen to what he did and You know, maybe maybe next week.

01:54:03

We'll play whatever he does this week and and and you know Play the video and show but you know what it used to be vocab was this

01:54:09

I used to When we when we'd have these folks come in we would end up The the key verse that the verse

01:54:18

I would debate. I'll debate any Hebrew is right on is Deuteronomy 28 68 because this is the verse they used to try to claim that they're only blacks are

01:54:28

Israelites Now now folks when I say that I'm an Israelite when I say that I'm of the tribe of Levi The reason is is because the rabbis have records

01:54:38

Because the family lines were important. So yes, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

01:54:43

This is an area I disagree with John MacArthur. He claims that we can't have those records We have those records orally that would then be written down again

01:54:52

Because you see this in in, you know Muslim countries today in a lot of places in Africa in the

01:55:00

Middle East where your tribe is really important Some people can go back orally 14 generations, they know their family history and the genealogy

01:55:11

They have it down. And so yes 70 AD got destroyed. What are what are the

01:55:17

Israelites gonna do? They're gonna write it down again isn't that what we would do if if the if the geological lines are important to us and so they would have that and People would go back multiple generations so that you ended up knowing your your line

01:55:32

That became important to families, but their claim is to take a passage that they cannot practice biblical hermeneutics

01:55:44

In fact, they can't even practice hermeneutics they can't practice the proper use of understanding language and And they like I was really expecting the last time they came in this time that we would get to this passage

01:55:58

But vocab, I guess you you've taught me because I I didn't know they've moved on from trying to argue the arguments

01:56:05

They can't win and and I'm gonna just say this in case there's any Hebrew. It's still listening. There is no

01:56:12

Absolutely, no Hebrew Israelite that can win a debate with me on Deuteronomy 2868 proving that the blacks that were slaves

01:56:22

Coming to America is what's in context here It says and the Lord will bring back to Egypt in ships by by the way

01:56:32

About which I spoke to you and you'll never see it again and there you will

01:56:38

Offer yourselves for sale to your enemies male and female slaves, but there will be no buyers

01:56:44

They claim that is the African slave trade and that proves there Israelites The only word the only word they want taken literal is ship that's it

01:56:54

Egypt doesn't mean Egypt it means slavery and Having no buyer doesn't mean no buyer because the

01:57:00

African slave trades had buyers. That's how it worked There's there's no one no

01:57:06

Hebrews were like If they want to challenge me, come on, we you know, go go back in this channel

01:57:12

You'll see where I debated an empty chair because they wouldn't show up And then there was a guy's vocab

01:57:18

I forget who he was but I remember you you remembered who he was the guy that actually did wait me was it Zodak?

01:57:24

So is a doc you debated Zadok? Yeah, okay Zadok Zadok is not as uh, he was a pretty decent guy

01:57:33

Yeah, he's not as like harsh as a guy like ash I mean, he still was he was a light and someone who looks to the law and an

01:57:42

Inappropriate way and a new for a new covenant context, you know But nonetheless any he doesn't believe in a full deity of Christ one time.

01:57:51

I asked him if Jesus was God and he said basically Yeah, come on. The guy came out a couple weeks ago was arguing that God is a title not a being.

01:58:01

Yeah Sacred name stuff that's pretense to slip in the right name of God, whatever they want to have but it's like this

01:58:08

I tell him Okay. Yeah, but Since there's only one

01:58:14

God when you say God you're referring to him So there's not a bunch of gods if I say man,

01:58:19

I don't know exactly who I'm talking about because there's multiple men There's only one God. So if we when we say

01:58:25

God, we're talking the category of being and The personal name of Yahweh That's the same and that's why you have

01:58:33

Lord God, for example numerous times, you know, Yahweh Oh, that's why you have that kind of thing or whatever so just you know, that's what they they do or Yahweh Adonai, but but uh

01:58:45

That's sacred name stuff, you know, they kind of get into that and these guys, you know, it's funny They'll point to dude on 2868.

01:58:50

They're not even really taking 68 literally as far as ships because um, it doesn't say slave ships yeah,

01:58:57

I mean I I mean I'm just I'm being nitpicky a little bit there, but I'm just saying and If there are one

01:59:02

Wester like ash now Zadok's not a one Wester. So he wouldn't put Native Americans and Latino folks on his inclusion of who's

01:59:11

Israel for the most part ash wood, but try to have him tell you how

01:59:18

The like the Seminoles fulfilled Deuteronomy 2868 Mm -hmm

01:59:24

How does it work where they came over to Egypt and slave ships and were sold but?

01:59:33

Yes, so it shows you they only up they apply these prophecies selectively

01:59:38

Yeah, and I mean because that that prophecy was fulfilled when you had both the the

01:59:43

Assyrian and Babylonian captivities What did the the Israelites do they fled to where to Egypt?

01:59:49

They went back to Egypt and they and a way to get to Egypt as you saw when we showed the map earlier

01:59:54

You could go by ship It's a it's a the quickest way and guess what you would do if you can't if you cannot

02:00:02

Get someone to buy you as a slave to take care of you. You'll sell yourself So that you have a place to live

02:00:11

Care food and a job you have someone that's taking care of you one one passage

02:00:16

I'd like to bring up with them in You know is this one mark 9

02:00:24

Verse 3 and this is why they'll always try to say like I'm not an Israelite because my hair isn't

02:00:30

Brillo like that's one of the thing. I'm not bronze color because they use those passages and What are they doing?

02:00:39

They're just trying to take things selectively, but you know mark 9 verse 3 speaking of the transfiguration with Jesus and it says and his garments became radiant and exceedingly white

02:00:51

And the King James that they like to use it says he was so it was so white No fuller can like no no one could use bleach to to to clean it to get it whiter

02:01:00

You know this translation says no launderer on earth can whiten them In other words, you can't put enough bleach to make it it was it was super, right?

02:01:08

And they go all that's not speaking. That's speaking of his radiance. That's speaking of his clothes So it's not to be taken the way you take those other passages

02:01:16

Yeah, not only that but if they have the 12 tribes chart and remember most Heber's lights don't believe in the 12 tribes chart

02:01:23

It's a minority position. They're just more vocal but like ash doesn't believe in the 12 tribes chart

02:01:29

If they want to say well that your hair the hair is not like wool It's not okay or Nate is Native Americans hair like wool

02:01:36

Because if you believe Native Americans Israelites They're disqualified then if their hair has to be like wool or like willow

02:01:43

But you see what I'm saying? It's again. It's selective and how they they go they go about it Yeah, and of course not to mention, you know,

02:01:49

David is described as ruddy Which is the same way that these guys see Esau being described

02:01:55

But yet Esau is the progenitor of the so -called white man and David is a black

02:02:00

Jew died and yet they're both ruddy Yeah It's the inconsistent and so so I got a little

02:02:07

I will admit I got ramped up when they once he called you a Devil or demon whichever word that's where I'm like, okay, that's in my mind

02:02:15

You can't you came on to this program and you just crossed the line Right much worse on his review

02:02:22

He talks about you know Making sacrifice of me and all this kind of stuff is a much worse and his review of this program is language will be much

02:02:30

Much less guarded to put it to put it on me. So that's just kind of how it is with him But I mean

02:02:36

I was aggressive with him in the sense of direct and stuff But that's because I had seen how he operated before and I knew unless I did that he would still hide underneath a cloak of Kindness, but all you gotta do is push him a little and then he says you're my enemies and I can lie to you and I won't put you in slavery and then and then he says that him calling you a devil is

02:02:58

Is okay because I said he was a sinner I was him grasping the straws. Yeah, I mean

02:03:04

Wasn't me calling you. That's God. That's God's Word You know that it's

02:03:10

God who says all have sinned and it was him who admitted he he has lied That makes him a liar, even if he wants to deny that he he lies anymore

02:03:21

But the fact is we caught him in a lie He says he doesn't lie anymore but on his thing

02:03:27

He said he confounded us drew were you confounded last time last week? Yeah, I don't remember

02:03:33

I don't think I was either. I just said I Haven't studied this out and I never and you know,

02:03:38

I'm glad you came in vocab because you know for 45 minutes I'm going where's he going with this?

02:03:45

It gave me a headache Remember, he's saying he doesn't sin anymore. But then he says he can lie to people who are of a different ethnicity

02:03:53

So he's redefining sin much like the Gnostics whom you brought up at the beginning of the conversation and check this out

02:03:59

How does ash know people's ethnicity? He doesn't know anyone's lineage going back to Jacob.

02:04:05

So how does he know who he can lie to based upon? phenotype He's basing who he can lie to based upon phenotype not upon fear of the

02:04:14

Lord or being honorable before God or being a man Of your word none of that. He's literally deciding who he can lie to based upon Phenotype this is the insanity of this religion and then they'll say we keep the law

02:04:27

Meanwhile, you can lie and steal and then accuse you of playing word games.

02:04:33

So so here's some some comments we've had Conversations with Christian says hey vocab did it did an awesome job on midnight

02:04:42

Mormons? I don't know what midnight Mormons is but he thinks he did an awesome job on it she did they're interesting young guys who are kind of trying to Show a hipper more tuned -in social media type presence for LDS folks the understanding of the culture and yet being somewhat conservative, but They're very interesting.

02:05:03

They're very intelligent. They're very savvy And I went on there we had we had interesting dialogue we had good dialogue, so I appreciate that All right

02:05:12

Our friend Kofi from deep dive discipleship says so basically this was a very slick way of getting to Hebrew Israel Racial gospel took us an hour for their standard

02:05:24

Play to get there Yeah, and that's why I actually appreciate the guys in the corner yelling at me a little bit better because at least they're honest

02:05:32

I can actually deal well, okay. Okay. Thank you At least you're honest and direct and forward and we can go from there, but this duplicitous stuff

02:05:41

It's like the new wave with these guys. I call it one West to Kia What is it?

02:05:47

It's no different than Islam to Kia, which is the the saying that you can lie to someone that's

02:05:53

Disagreeing with your faith Ryan said I've noticed with HI Hebrew Israelite that they steamroll verses and take most time speaking or take most speaking time slash very

02:06:09

Winded Andrew is showing much patience in the discussion and you know I want to give him a chance to speak because I look folks.

02:06:16

It's my show I can do a whole show next week responding to it if I wanted to typically we don't do that, but you know

02:06:24

Those who listen here, you know that I have a history of trying to be patient with people hearing them out

02:06:30

And I try to do that I'm glad that like I said vocab came in and because I I I Had no idea where they were going

02:06:39

John Says this this is typical strategy from his from Hebrew Israelites They flood you a scripture that are pieces of a bigger picture, but miss the big picture

02:06:52

That's right. We sometimes call it Hebrew hopscotch Yeah, and they take you know It's funny because they did bring this up a couple weeks ago where they go

02:07:00

Well, you have to understand the way to interpret the Bible. They take a passage from Isaiah, you know Line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little and I'm always like you do you realize that's a

02:07:10

Judgment on people doing what you're doing. I mean like it read the car And the context is judgment on you.

02:07:17

It's it's condemning the very thing You're doing not saying that's how you read the Bible because they don't even know

02:07:24

Many of them don't even seem to know that the Bible didn't have chapter breaks and verses breaks

02:07:31

So, yeah, so John also had said all this time consuming and missing the point of God's message in the gospel

02:07:40

Humble clay had said Sanctification makes our sin appear to us

02:07:45

Greater and greater we were talking about anger. He said anger is not a sin humble clay was talking about anger

02:07:51

There were a bunch of people also that were making that point that you know, if you're even angry God judges as murder of the heart

02:07:58

Now, let me ask this if someone asked I couldn't get chance to ask him Melissa asks do they deny original sin in Adam Do you know the answer to that with with some of these guys do they deny original sin?

02:08:10

I don't think I've ever talked to them about that. Okay, you know, what's interesting though?

02:08:15

I'm gonna I'm gonna say I bet the guess is Yes, and in a certain kind of qualified way.

02:08:21

Now again, we're talking about one West Hebrew is lights like ash not like Zadok Ash if he's consistent with other one

02:08:28

West origins of human human Well, it's a really a misunderstanding. But if he's consistent with kind of one

02:08:35

West anthropology He would teach something like Adam is the progenitor of what would eventually become

02:08:43

Israelites Okay, then there's other basically Adams for other people groups and so they didn't really sin the law wasn't really given to him and It's basically like Israelites are

02:08:58

Adamites but other nations are not Adamites Wow, that's interesting. So That's I guess that's in between like Genesis 1 1 and 1 2

02:09:09

Yeah, I've a local camp here. Yeah, I wish I servants they gave me an old breakdown

02:09:15

I didn't know was old at the time But I remember when they first told me I was on 19th Avenue talking to these guys They said that the trees in the garden are actually other people

02:09:25

So there's other nations there and they would go to passages that compare humans to trees Like when

02:09:30

Jesus healed the man and he said he saw trees and so they go there And so now again, this is one Westers This isn't somebody like Zadok He would have most likely all people actually descended from Adam to Eve like scripture says but a lot of these one

02:09:41

Westers They have Adam Adamites like so Adams a proto -israelite in essence.

02:09:47

He knocks a proto -israelite in essence and so that's like this Righteous line type of thing and then other people groups have other

02:09:56

Progenitors that were present and it'd be simple to intermix with them stuff like that So here's some more comments something about you.

02:10:03

We got humble clay says love vocab. He cuts no corners Now this this next one was from one of the guys that was following ash.

02:10:12

He said he was recalling you no swag Vocab. Yeah, so they got a bunch of nicknames for me.

02:10:19

We got no swag Vocab ho scab no jab

02:10:26

My favorite because this one actually my friend David Wood calls me because I'm I take my time slow cab

02:10:31

I don't mind that one. That's a that's a real actually legitimate nickname There's some who think they've discovered a secret name of mine

02:10:39

Matthew Schwartz I don't know who Matthew Schwartz is and they'll say agent Matthew Schwartz, and I don't know who they're talking about I have no idea what they're talking about.

02:10:48

So there's a whole bunch of another one is a low class cologne Yeah, and then lately if I don't know if you saw it it was actually in the chat it's a mal one

02:11:02

One I saw that they're there's they're saying it means eat the evil one Cuz my like mall

02:11:08

I get Spanish. It's a long story I used to graph right and when I graffiti dig graffiti or I went by mal one which stood for Marks a lot and then

02:11:18

I transitioned to like bad one when a Spanish kid told me all that means bad and I was like It's bad one as in like good like not bad meaning bad bad me good

02:11:27

But they take it as I was all the way back then I was calling myself the evil one Okay.

02:11:33

So yeah, there's a couple of more of them. All right, so so Jason said there's there's only one because this guy was coming up with different interpretations.

02:11:41

He was so he was saying there's only one interpretation One intended by God to discern through the

02:11:47

Holy Spirit and apply in a proper hermeneutic, which is what they weren't doing now To two thing.

02:11:52

I went one thing. I kept coming up a bunch of different people were mentioning this but humble clay is saying Okay vocab is here.

02:11:59

We have to get a rap Before he splits. Well, that's all for apologetics live.

02:12:05

Yeah Like everybody was asking for for a rap and I and you know it here's the interesting thing now most shows what you have is people that they want to get the content of the show and I get that content is important.

02:12:20

One thing that most people don't like is commercials and I think we have the only audience that when if I don't

02:12:29

Mention our sponsor we get comments like this. Hey Time for my pillow

02:12:34

No Here's what you have because there were comments that were that were wanting me and Andrew to join vocab in a rap

02:12:41

Yet not happening Well, we know I've actually got to go though This is a little bit over my time and I only the only the closest

02:12:49

I get to to rap is my last name That's about as close as I get.

02:12:54

Oh, yeah. Yeah rap report. Yeah We need we need vocab to wrap the my pillow

02:13:02

Oh my pillow. Yeah Yeah, so we should we should do a quick we'll end with this just real quick with a word from our sponsor which is my pillow

02:13:13

We do we do want to plug them because they do sponsor the show And so if you go to my pillow comm or call one eight hundred eight seven three zero one seven six

02:13:24

Use promo code SFE so my pillow comm and use promo code SFE For striving fraternity and you will be able to get the discounts.

02:13:33

They got their new pillows out so I encourage you to check those out and Vocab, I really appreciate you coming in It was very helpful because like I said,

02:13:43

I wouldn't I wouldn't have picked up on some of that stuff. So I appreciate it Well, you guys keep on doing what you're doing and I do appreciate that you your heart was to share the gospel with them and you know, that's what you're pointing towards and trying to talk about so I do appreciate that and Hopefully one day ash will realize that we believe in praying for our enemies.

02:14:04

So we don't consider an enemy now We do consider him an enemy of the gospel But he considers us an enemy

02:14:11

But he doesn't believe that means pray for us because he thinks it only means for people he calls Israelites So everyone pray for ash

02:14:17

That he would see who God really is for who he is and one day we can call him our brother in Christ And with that guys,

02:14:24

I gotta go. All right, and with that we're gonna end the show and here is a gospel message All the religious systems are based on system of morality of good works what makes

02:14:36

Christianity unique It is not a system of morality. It is about Jesus Christ Buddha is dead.

02:14:42

Muhammad is dead. Joseph Smith is dead. Mary Baker. Eddie is dead Jesus Christ rose from the dead if Jesus Christ was not both fully man and fully

02:14:52

God There would be no payment of sin. This was a debate in the first century Jesus Christ was fully man.

02:14:59

It's important to note that he did not have a human father Therefore he did not inherit a sin nature

02:15:05

Jesus Christ not only had to be fully man But he also had to be without sin never breaking any part of God's law if Jesus was not a man then people would have no payment of sins, but Jesus Christ is also fully