Hebrew Israelites Return then Q&A

So it's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that could be done for okay.

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing.

Is it is it the only thing or is it not.

Do you need to be baptized or not?

Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient.

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good.

To answer your questions.

Your host.

From striving for eternity ministries.

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions.

Any questions you got about God and the Bible we can answer them here.

Just remember.

I don't know is a Perfectly good answer.

So with that let me bring in mr. Drew Vanita.

Hello, it's good to be back with you.

Wait, it says drew von need a matter of theology.

But when was the last time you were on?

Last.

Okay, just checking.

I just for the record.

Hey Chris off like, you know, give this guy a hard time here.

You know, well actually Chris is probably going.

Hey if he wants to promote the podcast, he never is on, you know.

But I started it.

Yeah.

So Facebook is acting weird for us.

It seems that it's complaining that we can't stream.

Now originally it was giving us trouble in the apologetics live group.

Now it's giving us trouble in Christian apologetics group and the Justin Peters group.

You know.

Can't can't we lost access to your Facebook account.

Really?

Why?

Yeah.

Yeah, Facebook's a bunch of meanies they're trying to crack down one at a time one.

Yeah.

Yeah, so we're supposed to get some.

Hebrew Israelites in we'll see if they a Shah and see if he comes back in.

We're hoping he does.

I did get a Message if you remember a couple weeks ago.

We had a lady that was pretty critical of Calvinism and We weren't quite sure we

asked her to come in.

I hope she does but she she did message and say that she read through Ephesians and it

helped her to understand some things a little bit better.

So I see a shot is there in Watching on YouTube.

So we'll wait for him to come in.

But so, you know, how are you doing there, buddy?

I'm I'm doing well, I'm doing well.

I'm starting training for a new job for life insurance, so

prayerfully, I hope that goes.

I go that goes well, but I mean I'm I can't be doing as good as you are because.

You just celebrated a birthday I I hit the speed limit in New Jersey.

Double fives.

Yeah, 55.

So happy birthday Andrew.

Yeah, and so Oh a Shah is asking for the email.

The email I mean you you already know he already know should know how to get in because he got in last week just go to a project live

comm and Click the duck icon the stream yard icon and you're in.

Yep.

So that's how you do it.

And anyone can come in so anyone can come in and That way if you want you

come on in ask any questions you have the first hour.

We we're gonna deal hopefully with a shot answering his questions.

I read through numbers 24.

I wasn't quite sure where he was going with that, so we'll have to get him on to

discuss and.

But let's deal with the in the news section here.

I kind of triggered you before we went live didn't I?

Yeah, I mean it's.

You know, the crazy thing is is I think I think you I know dr. White.

Years ago when the Obergefell decision came down.

There you guys were saying this is the step one of the next where it's going.

Yep.

Yeah, so today the UN has declared that children

Have I mean it makes sense in their worldview because they think a child can you know Five -year -old could determine its

gender and know everything that all the ramifications of that, right?

So Why not just say well children as young as five can also

consent to sexual relations and so the UN has now declared that children can

Be cognizant to consent to sexual relations, which basically you destroys a

whole bunch of statutory rape laws.

Yeah, you're you know, so so we said this years ago, I mean this this is now they're gonna look

to make this legal.

The the next step is incest.

That you know, if you listen to can't Candace Owens.

She has been doing a lot of stuff You know granted, I'm just basically what she said,

but she has has claimed that the number one thing that they search for in these porn sites is

Brothers and sisters having things together.

So Gravity of man.

Yeah, so incest is next and then bestiality follows.

So, you know, it's gonna be I mean they're ready Pushing in at least in Utah for multiple

wives again or multiple husbands.

So so we're seeing a complete breakdown.

So I mean this as we look at it is Where the sinful

nature of man wants to go?

Because they just want to serve their own flesh deny that they're accountable to

a infinitely holy infinitely just God and When you try to remove

That then what ends up happening?

You've nothing else you have nothing to to keep you accountable.

But when you realize you're accountable to an infinitely holy infinitely just oh and by the way

Omniscient God who knows Everything you do even when you're alone.

Guess what?

He You you're accountable to him.

He knows everything.

You know.

With that with what the what the UN is saying.

I want to give some encouragement to the Saints out there if we look at the the book of

Romans the first chapter of Romans and First let's just back if you know anything about Rome.

Rome was the epicenter of everything bad at that time.

All roads led to Rome.

Because that was the center of trade and commerce and everything that was wicked and vile.

Centered in Rome.

And yet when Paul writes his letter to the Romans, what is he doing?

He's praising them for their great faith in the middle of that cesspool of sin.

So what we need to do is we need to hold fast to the gospel cling to the scriptures and

Remember that we must have faith.

Yeah.

That's right.

Now the second news article as we wait for a shot.

Come on in.

We might have some other guests, but this this Folks, I'm just gonna say if

you've tuned in to apologetics live.

Especially for the last three years.

This is not gonna be news to you I get it, but to a lot of the world.

This was this is a shocker drew shocker there people are gonna be surprised by this but

You know.

Hey, let me just read.

I'll read the headline.

CDC director admits vaccinated individuals can transmit

kovat 19 to others.

Yeah, we've only known that For two years two and a half years.

We've been pointing that out.

But hey, hey CDC's finally caught up to apologetics live.

Welcome to the party.

You should have listened to us First rather than what did it YouTube did?

Oh, that's right.

YouTube dinged us for saying masks don't work and you could spread

kovat to people even if vaccinated that we got in big trouble because we said

Vaccinated people the vaccines don't stop you from getting kovat.

Nor stop you from spreading kovat therefore we saw no reason for

The vaccines the way they claimed them.

That's right.

And that's what we so that's that's kind of what we're.

You know, we're dealing with uh, well welcome.

We want to welcome cdc to uh, 2023.

We're glad you're here and caught up with everybody else glad you caught up to us from where we were in 2021.

It only took you two years two and a half years to get here, but welcome to the party cdc um.

That they want to know the truth.

They're welcome to ask us first.

Yeah.

We could tell them because clearly.

Their agenda.

Finally caught up to truth.

Yeah.

Well, you know what the next thing is, right?

The next thing is going to be them admitting that the uh, the vaccine is harming

people.

Ha ha.

Yeah, yeah, that is that is coming.

So, uh, so that's with the in the news section.

So here's what we're going to do today folks.

Uh, we want to get into discussing a shot.

It just got in so we want to discuss with a sha uh.

He he had brought up numbers 24.

Uh 17 to 20.

So we want to discuss that.

I really I I did look at it.

I I it was hard for me to do like in -depth study only because I wasn't sure

what his view really was with it, so um.

Yeah, I think I think with the numbers.

I think his question was is this about christ?

Yeah, and that's that's kind of what I thought.

Um so and and actually when I realized I was like this this is I mean There's an interesting context behind all this but let's

let us bring and so what we're going to do is we're going to bring A shy in we'll go to the top of the hour

and then we're going to do q a so any questions you guys have.

Uh, you can even ask them now if you want to ask them in chat.

And we'll we'll spot them.

But if you really want to make sure your question gets asked The best way to do that is go to apologetics live

.com.

Scroll down to the you can watch it there if you want, but scroll down to the duck icon.

That's the stream yard.

Click on that join us in the discussion as a sha has done and then you Can get your question

asked so that's the best way.

So let me bring a shot in sir.

How are you?

Are you there?

We don't have him on camera.

Yeah, are you able to hear me?

Yeah, I hear you.

There we go.

Okay, perfect.

So i'm doing well on yourself.

Good good.

You know, it's it's really it's maybe it's good I was gonna say it's not good that you're not on camera.

Maybe it is good because out of the three of us you're probably the best looking one of us.

So you're having drew and I here.

It's hard because i'm pretty good looking.

Yeah.

You obviously don't look in a mirror my friend.

No, uh.

Yeah, but uh, but yeah, so so welcome back, um on I want to give you you you brought up and we didn't really

have time last week um.

To talk about the numbers 24.

Let me let me if I could can I give just some background with with numbers really?

Uh, it's it starts in 22 goes to 25.

Um is is one.

If I can give the overview, is that that okay with you?

Asha.

Um, you could do that.

Yeah, he's he asha's going.

Yeah, you could do it.

It's your show, dude.

But uh, no, so so this is son this is talking about an individual known as balaam uh

balaam is an interesting individual because if you read numbers 22 23 24 And not

25 you're gonna think balaam's a pretty good guy.

But as we read the rest of scripture we end up realizing that chapter 25 is attributed to balaam.

In fact, jude will will refer to it as council of balaam and elsewhere.

It talks about greed and things.

So what what basically occurred was the israelites were coming into the land?

Uh balak who is king realized like hey, we're watching these israelites just take over city after city after

city so there's this guy balaam and balaam is uh.

You know, he is a guy who is um.

An oracle so he's he's a prophet of god and he's one who

um Basically goes and you know that balak wanted wanted balaam

to curse the israelites.

And so What we end up having is Is the

the result is that balak goes to balaam and says hey will you come and curse the israelites for me?

Well balaam goes and says you know what I you know, I I can't god says I can't go.

But he really wanted the money he was greedy as we see in other passages of scripture.

So the guys go and they come back with even more um and so

What ends up happening is?

He gets greedy.

He really wants to go.

He's begging the lord and this is this is one thing that I will say folks if uh, you you don't realize this,

hopefully you never realize this the hard way, but when you keep.

When you pressure like you try to force your will on god.

A lot of times god will give you over to that and he did that with balam.

He gave balam over to his desire for money.

And balam seems like he's doing okay because he's saying i'm only going to say what god lets me say and this is a case where he gets on his

donkey and the donkey sees the lord, but balam doesn't and the donkey like keeps

brushing up, you know and and hurting, uh balam as he gets his legs caught and things and

Um won't move and that he's smacking the donkey and the donkey ends up talking.

And then he sees the lord with a fiery sword and says oh, okay.

But when he goes there in you end up seeing in in chapter 22, uh, sorry 23 24.

Balak asks brings him to the high places to see israel and curse them and and three times

balam blesses them and balak gets upset and basically says i'm not giving you the money because

I told you to uh to curse them and they.

They end up blessing instead.

So he so he kind of feels he got.

Uh, he he was paying him to do one thing, but he says hey I told you I can only say what god says.

Now in numbers 25 what's credited to balam the council of balam is balam really wants the money.

He can't get it.

He doesn't and this is something folks There's a lot of people.

They want to seem spiritual.

I'm gonna do the right thing.

They seem spiritual.

But their whole time their heart is given over in this case with balam to greed.

And so he palim wanted the money.

But he wants to seem spiritual and how he gets it.

So instead of cursing he knows he he's he's not going to curse israel because god hasn't given him to that to say.

So what does he do?

He ends up Convincing balak to say hey give your wives to them

or give your daughters to them.

They'll marry them as wives.

God will then Judge them for that because they shouldn't do that and then you don't have to worry because their own

god Will end up cursing them and so that is actually what did end up happening

Um, and so that is the council that what's known as the council of balam.

So with that as a background we're in numbers 24.

Uh and that and so you had some questions with this from uh, 17 to 20 so I'll

ask uh asha if you wouldn't mind reading the sections you want to discuss and then

We could uh, and then i'm going to need to have your understanding of what you what your question is.

All right for sure.

So numbers 24 and 17 reads as such I shall see him but not now.

I shall behold him but not nigh.

There shall come a star out of jacob and a scepter shall rise out of israel And shall

smite the corners of moab and destroy all the children of seth.

Since there's so much being said.

Um, we can do a section by section.

Sure 17.

Okay, so my analysis of this is a prophecy talking about a day when who the world calls

christ will come the scepter rising out of jacob And out of israel

and it's saying that one day he's gonna smite the corners or interpret in other translations as

princes of moab and destroy All the children of seth.

Uh, this is to be interpreted as a lot of the children of seth.

Because he's not going to destroy everybody on the planet of earth.

Uh, what would your analysis be?

Well.

So looking at this so I um He's he's talking here about you know, this

isn't you know, verse 15 is actually where he starts the discourse right?

It's an oracle of balaam right, uh who.

An oracle of the man whose eye is uncovered and i'm reading out of the legacy standard.

Is that that okay with you?

Okay Ash, i'm, sorry.

I'm, sorry ash Forgive me for that.

And by the way, there's a uh, just for folks listening.

There is a crackling noise on ash when he speaks.

Um, I I was hearing that so i'm not sure what that is.

It might be some feedback Uh or electronics near the the mic just so people know.

Um.

The so it says the the oracle hears the word of god and knows the knowledge of the most high who bears the

vision of the almighty falling down.

Yet having his eyes opened and then to what you read.

I I see I see him.

But not now I behold him but not near a star that comes forth from jacob a scepter

from the rise of israel.

Uh and uh and shall crush the head of moab tear down the sons of seth so

moab being one of the areas that really Wasn't truly crushed.

Uh, I I until david's time um and so

I I you know, this is someone who's who's rising up from jacob from the the people of

israel um.

And so from this one verse i'm going to look at this and say You know it if it's speaking

of an individual um.

You know, I and I don't know that it is I I would you know, if it's an individual maybe maybe david but

I think more what it's speaking of is just the fact that the that the nation of israel as the israelites come in remember the the

context right that this is the um.

The israelites are coming in conquering balaam is being told to to Curse them

so that they're that they won't take over balak and so balam's telling balak

and You know all of the the people there that You know, they are going to

conquer um.

So I don't I don't know that it's a if I can say it's a specific person, but the fact that it's it mentions

Moab, I mean if you go back, let me just give some context numbers 22 one.

And then the sons of israel set out and camped in the plains of moab beyond jordan

opposite jericho, so when we think about where they are there, you know, he's saying this that

you know, so that Basically israel is going to rise up um, and they're going to rise up.

You know.

And they're in they're in that land so they're it's it's that they're going to crush moab.

Um, I think that this is within I I think he's speaking within that time frame.

Uh in numbers, so it could be the israelites themselves.

That are there at that time and that that I think would be more fitting with the immediate context.

Fair enough, and then I'm sorry that was a little bit longer, but i'm just trying to Give some of the context.

No, that's all right, so uh moving on it says and edom shall be a possession seer

also shall be a possession for his enemies and israel shall do valiantly.

This adds more of the context of the prophecy um this is

the first.

This is the first glimpse that we get of what's going to happen to mount seer after the

Prophets of say isaiah the 63rd chapter.

Well, let's stay within If we can.

I'm just making a reference of okay, okay, but i'm saying it's it's founded on future prophecies where it says that

we are going to Extinguish edom.

There's also uh another prophecy in obadiah where edom will be Extinguished and their land

will be inhabited by the israelites.

So, you know, I would say that this remains to appear to be a future prophecy

Because the extermination of esau didn't happen, especially during the time of david.

And israel as a whole didn't go to war with the edomites to

Nearly extinguish them on any level.

What would your analysis be in that portion?

Um, so let's let's see this is All right.

I was trying to you mentioned.

So I was trying to look it up.

So so, uh, you're talking verse 18.

So, um and edom Shall be a possession so.

You know um I I think that what this is talking about is the fact

that again, I think sticking with that context The is it's a it's a promise that the israelites are going to take over

not only moab but edom uh.

You know that that they're they're, you know, they're all Valently, it's just I think

it's continuing with the fact that they're going to have uh that they would have a uh, complete destruction or

Of of the the nations that are in the land right.

So.

To your recollection did that happen during david's time?

It it actually happened.

Uh during joshua's time, but not completely uh, it it happened

in David's time to an extent as well.

Um but again, you know, there's the the a lot of the people I think died out over over

time just being uh restricted in in areas um a lot of the

different tribes in that land.

You know in the the land area that we're talking about of israel um really, I think

when when You have the assyrians came in and they just moved people you know

the israelites and and this is just a side note, but one of the things people always ask why are all the the

the the israelites have all these laws these these Holiness laws or separation laws.

And and really I think what it was was when they were taking captive into captivity it was that

That separation from the the gentiles that kept them uh as a nation where all

the other nations just kind of Blended in became a melting pot and and were lost.

Absolutely.

So what I want to buckle down on before we move on.

Because I think it's important to uh follow a linear logic, but not only that but when

someone says something to nail down what they've said with Scripture and i'm glad that

you mentioned that you know, these things didn't happen entirely.

That they were partial.

The prophecy says that these things are going to be happening on a absolute basis,

so.

Where that where it says it's an absolute basis.

So it says edom shall be a possession seer also shall be a possession

for Enemy and israel shall do value.

It also says that he's going to crush the corners of moab and

destroy all the children of seth.

The latter end of this prophecy says i'm going to read from 19 to 20.

Just because the general idea it doesn't get it doesn't get too much broader.

Okay.

So out of jacob shall come he that shall have dominion.

And they shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

So david was a man of war.

We can agree upon this.

He fought until he died of an old age and then the nations round about him were quieted.

So that solomon could rule The tabernacle of david in peace.

We can agree on that.

Verse 20 says and when he looked on amalek He took up his parable and said

amalek Was the first of the nations.

But his latter end is that he shall perish forever.

The proper interpretation is that Amalek is at the top of the nations.

He wasn't the first nations who exist.

So what we can look at is that?

Okay, we look at first samuel we see when saul was instructed

to Destroy the amalek.

He didn't perish forever because saw he he sought to Keep some of

the amalek amalekites alive.

We see later in the scriptures where there are still agagites roaming

uh, a lot of uh, a lot of people.

Believe that the word agagite Is a title that goes to edomite

rulership.

In fact, alexander the great.

He said he came from the timani dynasty, but when you look at his lineage in books like maccabees and so

forth he's rendered as an agagite.

But that's that's that's swallowing a lot.

But what i'm saying when I say that it's going to be something that happens.

Absolutely I'm saying because we have prophecies that say that Edom is

still Going to be destroyed.

And it talks about this in isaiah 63.

So this is where I want to solidify my logic and what I would like for you to do is

combat that so it says Who is this?

That cometh from edom with dyed garments from basra.

That's the capital of edom.

Where are you at?

Isaiah the 63rd chapter.

Oh, okay.

Hold on.

And what you'll find is that Description of prophecy about christ.

Isaiah 63 what?

And i'm starting at verse one verse one.

Okay.

Oh, maybe that's why I didn't understand.

I did.

I.

I had written down isaiah 60 1 to 12, but if it was isaiah 63 that was

okay.

Yeah, isaiah 60 is a little bit less specific and it touches on what's going to happen to all the children of set.

In the latter days isaiah 63 talks about what's going to happen to the

edomites.

While he's delivering the children of israel.

Okay, we're going to reflect when we're the israelites ever captive to The edomites but

that's neither here nor there at this point.

So it says who is this that cometh from edom with dyed garments from basra?

This that is glorious in his apparel traveling in the greatness of his strength.

I that speak in righteousness mighty to say Wherefore art thou red and

thine apparel and thy garments like them that tread in a wine vat?

So what we're doing again, we're getting the backdrop.

We're getting the setting of where this prophecy is taking place.

It's edom.

And this person that is going to be treading down edom As if he treads in a wine vat

is him that is mighty to say this is just Reiterating for the audience because it's a mouthful.

I'm now at verse three where it says I have trodden the winepress alone.

And of the people there was none with me.

For I will tread them in mine anger and trample them in my fury and their blood shall be

sprinkled upon my garments.

And I will stain all my raiment for the day of vengeance is in my heart and the year of

my redeem is come so that's where.

The prophecy ends when it comes to what's going to happen to edom in the last day.

Talking about their absolute destruction.

What do you make of that?

So are you tying these two passages together just because they both mention the word edom?

Um, absolutely not.

I'm tying them together because we see that Edom wasn't conquered by israel and their land wasn't taken.

In fact, it was instructed for them not to take the land of edom.

Because.

You know because I mean I I guess I guess i'm still back in numbers 24.

What i'm doing is saying that there's a precedent for my logic and it's that Edom

is not destined to have their land taken away from them until the latter days.

When you look in numbers 24 starting at verse 17 It talks about not only edom being a

possession but seer being a possession.

Also, that's their land.

Right when you look at the israelites when they're making their pilgrimage through the wilderness They're instructed

by the most high not to take their land.

You familiar with that?

Yeah, so I guess um.

I'm, just trying to look up the the word specifically here for um, let me just

Check the wording for For what you have here for possession.

It's yoresha.

Yeah, and it means to become property or to occupy.

Yeah, because I mean the word that uh, I mean I was looking up earlier and this is only used in two places and these are the

two places so um.

That makes it kind of hard.

So let's do some Digging into some other books here to see what we could find with that.

Yeah, so it's harder when we have a word that's not used in a whole lot of places um.

So i'm gonna i'm just because I I I guess from the english, right?

Um, I look at this and say well a possession doesn't Doesn't dictate in a

complete destruction as you were saying um.

And in verse 20, I was looking this up earlier because you said that uh, elimelech

Was the first of the nations you said top of the nations and that that was that was one was interesting

because that word Um has the idea of first fruits.

It's actually used um.

Not as top but as beginning it's it's the same word in genesis 1 -1 in the beginning

um.

And so it's more Was the first fruits of nations?

Uh, so I don't know if I don't know if that makes a difference with what you're thinking but.

When you talk about first fruits, is that not a pedo store?

Well In in the idea of it Is and the way the words translated the most

is beginning.

Uh, so it's the idea of the beginning of something the the start of something.

So the first fruits were usually the the the the first fruit picked at the beginning of the the harvest.

Um, that's the idea of it.

So it's a first or beginning um.

And and i'm not sure if top.

When you're saying top are you meaning it as in priority?

It's it's more so direct.

Okay, so.

What we can look at is that there's a table of nations.

There are a list of nations that are set to rule.

But they're not described directly when daniel breaks down this prophecy that he gets from nebuchadnezzar, right?

We just know that there's going to be an order that takes place after babylon.

No, we know the nations he tells us it's.

It goes from babylon medo -persia greek rome.

Right, and then there's the feet of my recruit clay and brass.

What nation is that?

That's rome.

Rome.

Rome is the nation of my reclay and brass.

Yeah, because there seems to be a break in there because it's a continuous.

So so I I would see that that myer that last nation hasn't

arisen yet.

It hasn't risen yet.

Yeah, and and I would I would beg to differ and I would say that that's the Uh, some

people call it dispensation that we're living in now.

And I would say that that nation isn't uh necessarily a land mass just like rome wasn't.

I would say that it is a power structure that's based off of.

Um the same elements that rome was comprised of.

They've just got a broader reach now, you know.

Yeah, that's why many people think it'll be like the eu or something like that.

It'll be.

I mean, it's it's clear that I mean the way we we we know it's rome as it

says that you know, the uh, the prince who who you know whoever destroys the

Uh the temple it's the prince of that of that nation that that comes in the end times, so

um.

That would I mean rome destroyed the temple.

So.

Right, and then uh that's prophesied also about in daniel the ninth chapter.

So we see so we can we can make certain comparisons and we can have a discussion about this prophecy another

day because There are a lot of parallels that need to be drawn and weighed out.

So, you know i'll accept your answer when it comes to that and we can talk about that another time

um.

So what we see is that?

The land of edom is meant to be trodden down and the edomites with it in the latter days.

Obadiah also prophesies of this ultimate destruction of edom.

So i'm lining those things based off of the fact that esau wasn't even nearly

Extinguished.

In fact herod was an idumi and there was a whole idumian dynasty reigning during the time of crack.

The question would have to become When after that were the edomites exterminated?

So we see that there's a continuity of edomites.

We see that they still have to be crushed.

Well, well, okay, but When we look at it price is the one that's supposed to do it.

So staying with with the context here in verse 18.

Right edom shall be a possession now granted the word that we have here in hebrews only used

In verse 18, it's used twice in verse 18.

It's the only two usages in the old testament um, so i i'm looking at the theological word book of the

old testament because that will go into More usages outside of scripture.

It'll give usages uh of of even root words, um, and so they're they're making the point that

it's a possession and A a similar word from it

is a inheritance.

So they're making the point that the word possession is is a possession as if as an

inheritance and so.

All that israel would need to do is take the land which they did do at this time.

To possess edom.

Right because they edom no longer has that inheritance of the land if israel is now possessing it.

Uh, which which they did at you know in you know after the after numbers,

right?

We we have them taking the land uh in joshua's time.

Can you demonstrate edom being taken and possessed?

You mean the land areas right?

Yeah.

Well, that's the whole book of joshua talks about the conquering of the land.

What what i'm saying is can you demonstrate edom specifically?

With the text like you know how i'm going to bible verses and i'm not Just saying things if you if you could.

I would like for my own edification if you could demonstrate that with the text.

Yeah, okay.

It would it might take me a bit here, but That's good.

Let me just look up and see I can at least quickly search for edom and Go through joshua

see if they're mentioned um.

But the that that area of land Uh, you know what was mentioned.

Let's see.

So it looks like uh, joshua 15 Talks about that.

So let's look up joshua 15 and see

all right, so Joshua 15 it does say now, uh, now the lot of the tribe of the

sons of judah According to their families reached the border of edom southwest

to the land To the wilderness of zin to the extreme south.

So the south border was from the lower end of the salt sea From

the bay that turns to the south.

So, let's see.

As in verse 21 now the cities At the far end of the tribe of the sons of judah

toward the back the border of edom to the south were uh

kebzil and eber and jagar so

I mean it.

If i'm looking at joshua 15, it seems that judah was in the land where edom had been.

So you wonder where it said the border of edom.

Yeah, i'm curious as to how we look at the border of edom.

Yeah, no, that's a good point i'm gonna.

What i'm gonna do Is really quick.

See if we could pull up a map of the area.

So while you look for that I would like to look at a couple scriptures too.

Just Just showing why I strongly resist that ideology.

Because when you look at numbers 20 It says.

And edom said unto him thou shall not pass by me.

Like they wouldn't even let us pass through to get to the land.

We were going to at least I come out against thee with the sword.

And the children of israel said unto him we will go by The highway and if my

cattle drink thy water then I will pay for it.

I will only without doing anything else go through on my feet.

And he said thou shall not go through.

And edom came out against him with much people and with the strong hand.

Thus edom refused to give israel passage through his border.

Wherefore israel turned away from him.

So we need to be able to produce a text that talks about a conflict between the

israelites.

Where there was some conquering going on.

Okay, yeah, so let let's um.

Let me see.

I could share this screen this would make it easier for folks

um.

Let's see.

Where is the map?

There we go.

Okay, so let's bring this up.

So this is the area we're discussing for folks looking at the map so, uh, if we're looking at this map and i'm going to

have to describe this for those who are Watching on or listening on podcast.

Um.

So up at the very top of the wind of the screen there is sea of galilee just you have an idea.

Goes down to the dead sea.

So this is just to um.

You know just under the dead sea or just to the to the east of the dead sea is where moab

was.

South of that is where edom is.

Okay.

So if we were to look at this uh during The

solomon's time.

We we end up seeing here.

That edom is moved.

And moab, you know, well actually not too much from this area, but we we end up seeing at least here

I'm trying.

What I want to look for is the 12 tribes.

Because this is the.

This is under the united kingdom.

Let's see.

I wonder if we could just type 12 tribes.

I'm not gonna lie when I was doing my studies.

It helped me to come upon better conclusions as well.

If you don't mind while you find that I would like to go into another text.

And I now I don't want to assume anything.

Was uh israel able to occupy any land when the most high was against them?

When was the most high against them?

Uh, for example, he told the israelites don't go up against a certain nation because i won't be with you.

That's uh.

That's paraphrasing I I would need to to know which verse.

Um, I didn't want to do that, okay, so here's

where You're looking for the the breakdown of the allotment of the israelites.

Yeah, that's that's exactly what i'm trying to look for.

Oh, here we go, this one's probably it.

Okay so.

Come on my mouse my mouse battery died.

So i'm using my trackpad which is not as good.

So if we're if we're looking if we're looking here It looks like

Um.

Although I don't see the color coding to see um.

Because there were on the west side of jordan.

There should be two and a half tribes.

Right and so

It it looks like here if i'm looking on this map Moab would have been just underneath

here with uh, edom underneath

so um.

Yeah, I mean this was the difficulty thing in not having the uh.

Knowing exactly what your question is to be able to prepare for it to to to answer so so part of this is i'm

not I I don't know the exact answer to the question because I haven't

Researched it.

I'm trying to take a look at these just to see if we have um.

Oh, this is during the time of the judges now.

Maybe that'll definitely, uh, let me know when it's okay for me to show a.

Oh, yeah, you thanks for what I was talking about.

Yeah, let's see.

Yeah, i'll stop sharing.

You show me what.

What if you have a map that shows what we're looking at.

So he tells joshua Um, i'm not i'm not talking about a map was a little proof text.

Oh, okay.

So the most high tells joshua through moses don't be afraid or dismayed.

This is this is which what passage?

This is going to be joshua 7 that i'm reading from and i'm just going to start from verse 2.

But i'm i'm just giving a little bit of a backdrop for context sake.

Okay, I instruct us not to be afraid or he'll allow us to be confounded before our enemies.

Right.

So this is an example of what happens when the most high is against us.

We're not able to Take ground as well.

We'll say so it says.

And joshua sent men from jericho to ai which is beside beth aven On the east side of

bethel and spoke unto them saying go up and view the country.

And the men went up and viewed ai.

And they returned to joshua and said unto him let not all the people go up.

But let about two or three thousand men go up and smite ai and make not all the people

to labor dither.

For they are but few.

So they went up to the people about three thousand men and they fled before the men of ai.

And the men of ai smote of them about thirty and six men.

For they chased them from before the gate even unto shebirim and smote them

In the going down smote them in the going down.

Wherefore the hearts of the people melted and became as water and joshua ran his clothes and

fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the lord until the

eventide.

He and the elders of israel and put dust upon their heads and joshua said alas oh

lord god.

Wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over jordan to deliver us into the hand of the

yammerites To destroy us.

Would god we had been content and dwelt on the other side jordan.

Oh lord, what shall I say when israel turned at their backs before their enemies?

For the canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it and shall in

Enduring us around and cut Off our name from the earth and what wilt thou do unto thy

great name and the lord said unto joshua Get thee up.

Wherefore liest thou thus upon my face?

Israel hath sinned.

And they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them for they have taken of the accursed

thing.

And have also stolen this uh and dissembled also.

And they have put it even among their own stuff.

So this is concluded at verse 11.

The point that i'm making is that while god was making very specific instructions with the israelites in the

wilderness.

Telling them where to go where not to go what to take what not to take every time they would disobey He

would be against them and allow them to be smitten before our enemies.

It's a bit of a fallacy.

And in believing that the israelites would be able to conquer the land of edom when the most high

explicitly told them not to even meddle with Edom's possession which was their land

and so i'm gonna go to the commandment where this is given if you don't mind.

Yeah.

Let me just because you made a statement.

Um, where was I don't see.

Maybe I missed it.

Where was eden.

Mentioned here in joshua 7 so edom wasn't mentioned in joshua 7.

Okay, I was doing was Substantiating my logic.

Okay.

I is continually against the israelites when they disobey and this is uh,

Particularly why it took them so long to even be able to reach the promised land.

Okay, that's an example of them coming up against the land to try to take it.

But they did it despite the commandments of god not to take Uh idols and such things from those

nations they were conquering.

So now what i'm going to do is show you that god told the israelites not to mess with the edomites

land.

Okay and so what that what that will show us is that If he wouldn't even let them come up

against ai because they touched an accursed thing, which is an idol.

Because they were taking the idols and they were stripping it for gold.

Right.

Let me just ask that you do agree that.

They later wiped out.

Ai correct.

That's because they had repented.

Okay, right.

There's no repenting from doing something that god said don't do by in fact

going ahead and doing it.

I'll i'll i'll uh explain what I mean.

Deuteronomy two and four.

Deuteronomy and now the people saying.

I'm, sorry, were you asking for the the tech.

Whatever.

And I got I.

I was just reciting it for deuteronomy.

Two four.

Okay, and i'm gonna read down the five.

It says and command thou the people saying You are to pass through the coast of your brethren

the children of israel.

So it's saying you're supposed to pass through and this is before we were denied passage and water by

them, right?

I just want to uh, I just want to bring the audience along to make sure i'm not losing everybody.

So you're to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of usaw which dwell in seer and they shall be

afraid of you.

Take you good heed unto yourselves therefore.

Metal not with them for I will not give you their land.

No, not so much as a foot breadth.

Because I have given mount seer unto esau for a possession.

So what i'm saying is when you see the border that they lived up against the border of esau.

Yeah, that's true.

But we weren't allowed to take a inch of their land into their possession.

Okay.

So it's possible that the land of edom was taken as a possession during that that

time frame that you were talking about.

I guess and and just because we're short on on time here um I'm, I guess what i'm trying to

figure and I don't I don't mean to be obtuse here I just i'm trying to figure so I guess what's what's

the point of this?

Like what's the point?

That you're you're trying to get to with this and maybe it's just I just don't see it.

Maybe I I miss something.

Well, the the the point really is just that for truth's sake I like to hear what the

interpretations are of these texts because oftentimes They're removed from the gospel.

Like when when we talk about the gospel a lot of people think that those

The whole thought of it was only mentioned starting with the new testament when we start to see the gospel

all the way in the torah.

Numbers 24 is just an example of what's going to happen when the tabernacle of david is re -established.

And I wanted to see if the panel had a grasp of that.

When I say the tabernacle of david, i'm sure you're familiar christ being Of that davidic

line and him ultimately being the ruler of the house of david and all of israel when his reign

comes.

Uh people don't really get what that's going to look like Although the scriptures talk about it

all throughout.

And its illustration contradicts the the the common belief about what salvation

even is or what the good news.

Okay, good because I want to I want to ask that because you're saying This is not mentioned in the gospel.

And and so I guess as you're saying, no, no, no, no, let me let me let me make sure you you understand

I do want to say so what I want to ask is I want to ask this question of you As you say with the gospel

Could you communicate to me?

What you mean by the gospel?

What what do you believe the gospel is?

What what is the gospel message?

So the word gospel meaning good news and I wanted to clarify because I didn't say it's not mentioned in the gospel.

I'm saying that people don't understand oftentimes that.

Numbers 24 is a part of the gospel.

Yeah, so that's that's why i'm asking what You'd explain the gospel because I i'm i'm trying to understand how you

link This to the gospel.

Okay, so let's let's let's build off of that.

I'm sure you would agree that the tabernacle of david being rebuilt is part of the the good news, right?

Um, I don't know that i'd agree with that because I don't understand how you you're.

I mean, I I wouldn't see the tabernacle.

Um.

Yeah, well, so let's do this because why don't why don't you explain what?

Your understanding of the gospel and and then I can explain mine.

Does that sound fair?

Okay, so i'll try to make it.

A little quicker.

So when you go to the book of luke chapter one, you start at about verse 67 approximately.

Zechariah the father of john the baptist Talks about what the gospel looks like.

And it's that israel will be delivered from the hand of their enemies and out of the hand of all that hate them So that they

can serve the lord without fear.

Other israelites share this sentiment during christ's time even when he came back to visit after

his death.

Looking at uh passages like Acts chapter one starting at verse five where they

what they were looking for was for israel to be restored.

Right and christ said that you know, it's not the time right now and it's not for you to know the time.

So that's good news if you're under roman dominion.

And you only get a limited autonomy because your oppressor allows it.

It's good news that you're going to be delivered out of that.

So israel being um, Given the opportunity to repent from their sins.

Being put back in the land that their forefathers Were promised because all israel wasn't there

during the time of the romans, for example uh.

There's a there's a laundry list of things that they were promised.

So the tabernacle of david is a part of that.

That they will be won In the lord's hand pursuant to ezekiel the I believe the

37th chapter.

No more two houses, but one.

Okay so, um.

Yeah, that's that's.

So let me see let me summarize it and make sure I understand this, right?

Uh, because I want to make sure i'm understanding you so you would.

You'd be saying that the gospel the good news.

For the israelites was the idea of being uh released from

roman occupation.

Being released from the hands of their enemies of their enemies.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah because they weren't only under roman occupation.

I just use rome as an example.

Okay, all right, um.

So.

It wouldn't that be good news to a people that are oppressed.

Yeah, I mean it it would be but it's I I don't think it's the good news.

That we we see in the scriptures.

But christ goes as far as to Describe it if you look at

luke 4.

Starting at verse 16 He reads a passage from isaiah the 61st chapter.

And he says this i'm going to start at verse 17.

There was delivered unto him the book of the prophet.

He says we can agree that that's a it's more of a greco.

Greco transliteration of isaiah.

Yeah, yeah, he had opened the book.

He found the place wherein it was written.

The spirit of the lord is upon me because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel unto the poor.

He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives.

And recovering of sight to the blind to set at liberty them that are bruised to

preach the acceptable year of the lord.

Right and that's also mentioned in that text.

I showed you earlier Isaiah the 63rd chapter.

And he closed the book and he gave it again to the minister and sat down.

And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were bashing upon him.

And he began to say unto them this day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.

So he's preaching this doctrine about salvation.

For for the captives The the cold part about this is that the the the passage

from isaiah 61 that he read Is only part of the prophecy and the rest Hasn't

taken place.

So it includes israel being saved from their enemies.

It includes them being established on a pedestal like they were promised in

the 28th chapter.

In short, I just want to make sure so in short you're saying that the essence of the gospel message is freedom from

their oppressors.

The essence of the gospel is that the son of god was going to die so that the

israelite sins could be purged.

Okay, now that's the first you're mentioning that so.

It is not if we if we review the footage.

I said that they were going to get an opportunity To repent.

So christ is going to die.

He's going to deliver the children of israel out of their sins because their sins is what's keeping them in

captivity.

Right, and then they will be given back the land to their forefathers.

Like I said, when you look at these prophecies they start all the way in the torah.

And they don't even understand why they're being told that they're going to be delivered out of their hands.

Well that that i'll agree with because you end up seeing right in genesis 3

When the curse is given to the serpent that A promise of of a child

that will come and crush the head of the serpent.

And so so, you know, we have that.

Um, so let me explain what my understanding of the good news.

And then i'm going to bring someone in that uh a guest backstage see.

To see.

If he wants to add more to it, but here here'd be the thing that I i'm going to say I I mean you brought up luke 1

and I think luke 1 77.

Tells us it what what the good news is is to give to give to his people

the knowledge of salvation.

By the forgiveness of their sins because of the tender mercies of our god.

Um, and so I think if we want to go back to the old testament, we see the promise of

a new covenant.

Um we we see this in in um.

Uh, I think I had the wrong verse here, but jeremiah I thought it was.

Say again 31 31.

Yeah, 31 30.

Why for some reason I had 29 29.

I don't know why I did that.

Yeah.

Well, it happens to me a lot and but at least when i'm wrong i'm consistently wrong it's really bad.

Uh, but but the promise of a new covenant and you see us also in uh, ezekiel.

Um, you're going to see us in ezekiel 36 25 and following.

And when we look at those the promise of the new covenant.

And this is something I think a lot of christians take for granted um, you you had the nation of israel

where you you you had an intermediary between Us and god.

It you we had this priesthood.

The the levites which is my my family background.

They were this this intermediary between god and men people couldn't go directly to god

and so what you end up seeing is these passages speak about the fact that.

You know in this new covenant we no longer need Uh to have an intermediary.

But the spirit of god is going to indwell us.

And therefore we we no longer need a priesthood because we'll be a priesthood of believers.

Um, and and so that becomes the the the promise there that we we see

um in those two passages that God's going to put his spirit

within us so but the point of it in really in

Luke 177 was the key is the good news was not.

That we would that the israelites would would conquer their Their you know the romans.

Uh that that was the teachings of the pharisees.

But those I mean those are the very people that taught that are the very people jesus condemned as hypocrites

over and over again because.

They were like understand what you're saying when you say that because you're.

You're substantiating zacharias as a proper witness.

But you're also saying part of what he said doesn't count.

So what do you mean?

What do you mean part of what he says doesn't count?

You were saying a part of the gospel.

Wasn't that the israelites would be delivered from roman rule, I believe that there might be some

confusion there because I know I didn't say it.

I'm saying that the israelites had an expectation that.

Because christ was on the team the scene and the prophecies that they read about him.

They believed that they would be delivered from rome and all their enemies.

Yeah, but they never were delivered from roman rule.

I would agree but no and I mean they were.

There were prophecies that are still I'll say still future to where.

When christ returns, he will he will rule and You know,

he will rule over all the nations.

So, but I i'm going to say that's still future.

And the part of will deliver the israelites from their enemies, right?

Um.

I guess yeah, I mean in the end times.

Yeah.

Just for because the audience is more it's more about them, right?

One in 68.

This is what zacharias knew.

I'm gonna start at 67.

So we can see that he wasn't disillusioned about what he what he was saying either.

It says father zacharias was filled with the holy ghost And prophesied saying blessed

be the lord god of israel for he had visited and redeemed his people.

He made that purchase with his blood, right?

He has raised up a horn of salvation For us in the house of his servant

david as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets Which have been since the world

began.

And That we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all that hate us.

To perform the mercy promised to our fathers and remember his holy covenant.

The oath which he swear unto our father abraham.

That he would grant unto us that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him

without fear.

And hopelessness and righteousness before him all the days of our life and thou Child

shall be called the prophet of the highest.

But thou shalt go before the face of the lord to prepare his ways to give knowledge of salvation unto his

people by the remission of sins Through the tender mercy of our god

whereby the day spring from on high Hath visited us.

To give light unto them that sit in darkness.

And in the shadow of death to guide our feet unto the way of peace so just.

When we when we look at all of that a large portion of that is them well.

And and that's but that's that's Zachariah speaking this right of the holy spirit

right, you're having a mixture of.

The first and second coming in there, but when we speak of the good news, let me turn to first corinthians

15.

And just start in verse one now I make known to you brothers the gospel.

So he's making known to what the gospel is.

So let's look at it.

I make known to you brothers the gospel which I proclaimed as good news to you.

Which also you received?

In which also you stand.

By which also you were you are saved.

If you hold fast the word which I proclaim to you as good news.

Unless you believing for nothing for I delivered to you.

As the first importance that which I received that christ died for our sins.

According to the scriptures and that he was buried.

And that he rose the third day according to the scriptures.

So there's the three elements of of the gospel that jesus christ died.

Was buried and rose again.

So so now let and and this is going to be something Ash let me say and I know you're going to disagree with

and so i'm just i'm Caveating that because you and I already kind of had some conversation um, you know, so

but.

What what makes christianity unique?

From every world religion.

There's three things but essentially it's Every world religion because they are every man -made religion is based on human

effort.

They have to do something.

It could be faith plus works, but you're adding works.

That's the catholic church.

You know islam would be one good deed counts for 10 bad.

You know the modern judaism we would call rabbinic judaism.

It's doing tara doing laws.

You're just obeying the rules.

Each of those are man -made works and so because.

Those systems are based on man -made works.

They all are about a system of morality of doing right and not doing wrong.

Christianity as we see in first corinthians 15 is based on a person not works and

that's the the whole chapter here is talking about the resurrection and the importance of the resurrection because.

If jesus christ is not god.

Then we're dead in our sins and and that's the importance of it.

This is where you and I are going to differ because you don't believe jesus is god.

But let me at least explain to you, you know what the biblical gospel is.

So you at least hear it and understand it.

Is that if jesus christ because it's based on jesus.

Okay, the gospel because not a moral system because of who jesus is being truly

god.

He can pay an eternal fine and pay it for more than one person.

So you and I Ash, I mean you may be more moral than me.

I'll grant that to you.

But both of us break god's law.

And both of us would be criminals and sinners in god's sight.

I would like for you to demonstrate how I break the law because you you you can say that all have

sinned which yes.

And that's the breaking of the law.

Have you ever have you ever told a lie?

What I said was you would need to prove that I break the law.

Well, i'm asking have have you have you ever lied?

Yes, the point that i'm making is that you cannot say that I break the law because I have broken the law.

Okay, would if someone raped someone would we call them a rapist?

Yes, we would.

So if if you are if you broke god's law thou shall not lie.

Are you a lawbreaker?

I am a i'm a somebody who is a criminal.

In essence of the law, but we're talking about born of god, right?

Well, we're not there yet.

No, I mean we are there because we're talking about christ, right?

Well, the thing is that if The need but the need for christ is that we have

we are lawbreakers.

We're criminals in his sight, but then when he let's let's use the woman who was caught in adultery, for

example.

Well, that's that would be a bad argument to use because it wasn't in the

original bible.

Let let's hear the argument because it's still a great example.

Um, he tells her go thy way and sin no more.

And that's the whole idea here.

You become reborn and you sin no more.

Is that.

Do you not sin anymore?

That's correct.

So you believe in sinless perfectionism.

No, I don't.

Well, you just said you don't sin anymore.

I didn't say anything about sinless perfectionism.

That's I mean.

You just put an ideology in my mouth and you kind of guess.

David wasn't sinless yet.

He was perfect.

Well, that's because jesus was sinless because he was god.

No, I said I said david.

Was perfect.

David was perfect perfect when he committed adultery.

And killed the husband.

So now what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to contradict the text.

Does the bible say that david was perfect before god?

What do you mean by perfect now?

I mean what the bible defines it is but no no, no, no because you're using it two different ways.

It's a fallacy of equivocation the word perfect.

Doesn't always mean.

You have established for me what my idea of perfect is.

So that's a logical so is is perfect is perfect meaning you never sin.

No, it doesn't mean that.

Okay, but that's how you just used it.

How.

Please.

Please say what I said.

That tells you that you can be uh, you have to not sin to be perfect.

So you you said.

You said you don't sin, right?

Right, and yet scripture says that if someone says they don't sin.

They're lying.

In in first john I said that sin is transgression of the law.

I said that if you commit a sin, then you are Someone who has sinned.

I I don't I don't know where you get that last part.

Okay, so.

What a sin what sin is is transgressing the law.

Right.

Okay, and I have done that and you've done that and but you don't.

You're saying you don't do that anymore.

Right because i've been reborn in christ.

Okay.

So when when john speaks to believers and says in first john 1 10 if we say we

have not sinned We we make him a liar and his word is not in us and you're saying you don't

sin.

I didn't say I have not sinned.

I said I don't sin.

That's why I said there's a difference between saying I don't sin and I have not sinned.

Okay, so now he's.

That's why I use.

No, no, I think what he's trying to say is once he was in christ, he's he's never sinned anymore, right?

Yeah, okay.

But the text refutes him.

Quoted.

Who's the fellow that's next to you?

It's true Drew, um, I would appreciate if you didn't gaslight me.

I'm just saying i'm saying what you said.

No, you're not you.

You just said that I was playing word games.

Because because that's what it is because we're what we're saying is we're saying that.

Everyone sins.

Yes.

Before we before we are in christ.

We are sinners.

We are transgressing the law.

Once we come to christ we we do still sin.

Because that's part of our fallen nature.

We are not yet made perfect in christ.

Of being made holy.

So we are growing in holiness, but we still sin.

We sin both by commission and by omission.

Well, I'm sorry he wants to know if you're born from god, yes.

So Ash let me let let me do one thing because I I mean

you got.

You had a good 40 45 minutes really kind of uninterrupted other than a couple clarifying things and and I want to try to explain

The gospel to you.

That that's cool, but I want to correct andrew real quick.

Yeah, we know that whosoever is born of god sineth not but he that is begotten of god

keepeth himself.

And that wicked one Toucheth him not.

Which verse is that.

Chapter 3 and verse 9 says whoever is born of god.

Where are you in the text?

I'm at first john 3 and 9.

At this point whosoever is born of god does not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him.

Okay, not sin because he is born of god.

And who is it that john is speaking to?

John would be speaking to us the israelites.

Yeah, but what's the issue that he's addressing?

He's addressing sin.

And no, no, no.

What group?

The circumcision.

Well, he you know, he's he's speaking because there's long past the circumcision is an issue.

He's speaking to gnostics the early gnostics.

Do you Gnosticism taught.

One of the things gnosticism taught is you can sleep with a prostitute and not sin.

As long as you only let your flesh do it and not your spirit.

And so what you end up having is he's speaking to people who were justifying sin.

They were they were sinning as a pattern just not calling it sin.

Okay, so I corrected on that but does that change what he's saying?

Oh, yeah.

Because he's speaking of a pattern of life now, he's not saying you never sin.

He's saying he's saying if people claim because he.

Earlier, he said if you if you if you claim that you don't sin you make god a liar.

But now what he's doing is he's he's expressing to to them their arguments and he's

he's making a black and white issue to say look if you say You can live in sin.

And just do whatever you want.

And practice sin.

You're not a believer.

A believer is not someone who's going to be characterized by like this is why I have an issue with people that say

They're a gay christian right.

Because what do they do.

And they're saying I live my my identity is in my sin.

Right.

I'm a christian.

No, you're not.

You know john this is that's the exact thing that first john's addressing is you can't be

Where your pattern of life is identifying yourself by your sin and saying that's going to be?

You know who I am.

And then say i'm a christian.

Ash, do you believe that paul was an apostle?

Yep, do you believe that paul was born of god?

Okay, so what do we do with paul the apostle?

Who says that he still struggles against sin and he still struggles against his flesh.

Actually, he said he's the chief of sinners and that's later in life.

Actually, it's an interesting thing.

I learned in seminary was I never thought about it and I studied it out.

But if you look at paul chronologically in his writings.

He has a worse and worse view of himself as he got older.

Like at first he was you know, it's he.

He's he struggles with sin.

He has sin.

By the end of his life.

He's the chief of sinners.

So what I want what I want to go on record i'm saying is that we could be a lot more detailed and

we can grow in understanding, but you guys are kind of going to Different points i'd like yeah.

And I want to get I I do want to stick to finishing the gospel.

But I this is where if our friend matt slick was here.

Um, what he would do is get under your skin and annoy you until you get angry.

And then point out that you still do.

But um, did you say anger is not a sin?

Yeah, it's not a sin to be angry if you get angry out of selfishness.

Sure it is.

Okay, so but but now you're laying a context.

Oh, yeah, because you can be angry for god's for god's sake.

And it's not a sin be angry and do not sin.

We see that in in Psalms, uh, I forget now.

I want to say 14 but.

But but here here's the here's the what I was pointing out earlier and this this is what I think is the gospel message is the fact

that.

What what makes christianity unique is the fact that you

have a person.

Fully god.

Being fully god.

He can pay the full consequence of sin, which is eternity in a lake of fire all liars.

Which includes all three of us?

Because you've admitted you you've lied.

I know i've lied and I know drew's lied before.

He once said I was a nice guy.

I know he lies.

Um.

But no, we've we're all liars.

All liars according to revelation have their place in a lake of fire which burns a brimstone.

Which is called the second death.

That's where all of us deserve to go for all of eternity.

However, what makes christianity unique is that jesus died?

That death was for our sins.

He paid the punishment of sin.

Was buried Rose on the third day according to the scriptures.

The the rising from the dead vindicated that he was god because he said he'd rise himself

from the dead.

So the and this is a difference in the gospel message.

Between us and and a gospel message that's that literally leads to heaven or hell.

Because if we don't believe jesus christ is god.

Then we're dead in our sins because we have a temporal being and a temporal being cannot pay an

eternal fine.

It can only pay a temporal fine.

It would have taken jesus forever to pay it as a temporal being.

Being an eternal being being god the creator as we see in colossians 1 and

elsewhere that he created all things.

Everything that was created was created by him and through him and for him.

In that way what we see is he can pay that eternal fine having

been truly human.

He can be a substitute for you and I.

And and that's the gospel message that we see according to paul in first corinthians 15.

The good news is that christ came he died was buried rose

again vindicated by his resurrection proving he was god proving that we will rise from the

dead.

And have the forgiveness not everybody but those who are in christ so um.

No, I know it's it's it's a little bit later than we planned.

I do have someone backstage.

I want to bring in um.

A friend of mine who I I this is one of these drew.

I don't know if you know this story.

But I was I was preaching in new york city.

And when you're preaching in new york city, you see a lot of people.

And I remember turning.

I just happened to turn behind me and I see a guy and I said hey that guy looks an awful lot like

vocab malone.

Well, it actually was vocab malone, um, he happened to be in new york for an event.

And then I saw someone walk over to him say hey vocab malone.

And I was like, oh that actually is vocab so.

Vocab, well welcome.

I'm glad that you were able to to join us.

I know you were listening in.

I want to open up to you to first off, you know, let you introduce yourself in your ministry it's been a long time since

you've been on here so folks can know who you are and then.

Any any questions you have or or comments.

Sure.

Yeah, my name is vocab.

I'm phoenix and I do apologetics in a city context dealing especially with heber's

lights and other things like that.

And I got a youtube channel and uh youtube .com vocab malone.

And uh, yeah, you guys do interesting stuff here and I see you've been talking to ash.

Looks like he makes the rounds on the apologetic shows to get content for his channel.

So I think that's sort of his mo.

Uh, which is interesting sort of parasitical in nature.

Kind of sounds like The little back and forth he and I has going to end up there.

I'll have.

No he's definitely going to use it.

And uh, if he does if he does like what he does when when uh, he was on my show.

He'll put you in a ku klux klan outfit.

So I was very kind to him all the times he came on.

I would let him speak I refer to him with respect and then I listened to the program and all kinds of

names and all kinds of uh, Real shady stuff as far as what they're saying

Ungodly and put me in a clan outfit on the cover image.

So he has no honor.

He's a dishonorable man and this whole conversation you guys didn't really see it quite and I know you're trying to be

good -natured.

His whole point of this conversation was try to prove he's going to own white slaves.

Before god gets to kill him all a thousand years.

And that was a whole point of this conversation basically is how he's so excited to own slaves uh in the kingdom

and this is a man who Believes that he's not only going to whip the backs of slaves, but judas

is going to be alongside of him.

Owning black slaves as well because they believe they'll own africans.

Who are hermitic and their schema?

So this is the person you've been talking to.

I know you didn't know but I just gave you his bio since he's not going to do it for you.

Is that why I came on the show so I could talk about whipping backs and prove that i'm gonna own slaves.

Uh -huh.

Yeah, that is why you that is why you came on the show.

Because that was the only thing.

That was the whole point of your isaiah and luke.

That was your whole point of your isaiah and luke breakdown, which you stole from sakari.

And that's why I always thought you were part of sakari because i've noticed all your breakdowns are directly from sakari.

You might as well be in their camp.

You're like the triple -a version.

I was in their camp.

Uh, so.

Where did I mention slavery and luke?

You um, you don't remember when we talked.

You said that god willing you'll be able to whip backs god willing maybe even mine and god willing you'll have black

slaves.

You don't you don't remember that?

Let me think I know that in isaiah the whole point you're trying to say that Slavery is bound up

in jesus's definition of the gospel because you want to go to the end of isaiah.

Where it says look you're going to build our walls.

You want to pull a trump on africans and that's what you think isaiah is about.

So Why are you asking me?

Why are you asking me when you already know the answer?

Ben can attest to is that I wanted to show that there's a destruction of a whole people group.

And I wanted to find out what they knew about those prophecies saying.

So I wasn't gonna go.

Yeah ash.

Can you show us in the historical record after 70 ad any time that anyone from edumia

is mentioned?

Just one.

Let's see.

Where can I?

No, yeah, you can't find it.

You know why ash?

When did they because they were gone?

They no longer existed.

That's why they you can't find any after 70 ad.

Ash was the last.

Notice how I asked you a question.

And you just want to ask me a question back because you can't really answer questions.

Well, you ask people questions and to make content out of it, but i've i'm wise to your your tricks now.

That's why your whole game is up when you admit that you can't find anyone from edumia

mentioned in the historical record after 70 ad.

That's when most of them were all gone is after 70 ad and if if we have time I can show you examples.

Where they get destroyed before that it was a slow drip.

They didn't even have a kingdom in 70 ad.

It was edumians.

Fighting with the israelites in jerusalem.

Did you know that ash that the edumians fought with the israelites in jerusalem in 70 ad?

Did you know that?

Yeah, i've heard that.

Well, it's true.

You should read josephus.

He tells you all about it.

And that's the last time any edumians are mentioned ash.

That's it.

I asked you because straight up I said, I don't know the answer to that question.

I asked you who was the last edumian?

Uh, who was the last hit site ash.

The reason that's a stupid question is for you.

You're right.

Your question was stupid because you don't know the last one's name that doesn't prove they don't exist anymore ash.

You said that they were completely destroyed, but obadiah says that the israelites are going to be the ones that

destroy them.

Okay.

The house of judah and israel.

When did that happen?

Well, let's let's do that ash.

Let's do that.

So notice how they don't exist anymore you've already established that.

You've already established they don't exist anymore.

Now.

You're switching your contention To oh, it wasn't really the israelites who did it the way it worked is

the israelites.

Were part and partial ultimately this is all god.

Ultimately.

This is all god.

The israelites were responsible for a number of their slow Destructions.

This is a thing that happens over time and I can give you a perfect example.

That shows you where your initial question was fulfilled.

Remember when you brought up numbers 24 in the beginning.

Second samuel 8 11 through 14 shows you the fulfillment of that edom shall be

dispossessed.

Now let's look at second samuel 8 11 through 14.

These also king david dedicated to the lord together with the silver and gold that he dedicated from all the nations.

He subdued from edom moab the ammonites the philistines amalek and from the spoil of hadad.

The son of rehab king of zobah now listen to this listen.

David made a name for himself when he returned from striking down 18 000 edomites in the valley of salt

then he put garrisons in edom.

Throughout all edom he put garrisons and all the edomites became david's servants.

So this shows they don't have their own territory anymore ash because he's literally putting garrisons there

and making him.

Making him be the fulfillment of this prophecy in numbers because they're his servants.

All the stuff you're looking for that you want to happen to white folks has already happened.

So have you not read second samuel?

Chapter 8 verses 11 through 14 where it says they were his servants and he put garrisons on land.

Did you not read that?

That was an excellent point bro cam.

I have read that but i've also why are you asking these guys this question?

Let me uh, let me finish what I have to say because I didn't interrupt you.

That's that's that's okay, bro.

After i've seen how you operate I don't want to let you slip and slide out of it, but go ahead.

Oh, there's no slipping and sliding.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

There's lots of slipping aside.

That's why you asked me who the last Edomian was when I asked you where they are in the historical record.

That's an example of your trickery.

Now what I do know furthermore what I do know is that there's still a future prophecy about the

remnant of edom being possessed.

And the rest of the heathen that are called by the lord's name, you know.

That this world are become the kingdoms of our lord.

Amos 9 and 11 talks about excellent.

I was hoping you would go there.

Great job.

Tell me about acts 9 being quoted in the new testament.

Ash.

Tell me what happened in acts 15, please.

Thank you for opening up the scripture to acts 15.

No, no, we we want to make sure we interpret it through a new covenant lens because you you and I both believe

James is an apostle right?

Now was james right there when he when he referred to the prophecy of amos 9 that way.

Or do you believe like gms that james went off?

Do you believe james went off?

I'm gonna speak on my point.

This is amos 9.

It says in that day.

I will raise up the tabernacle of david that is fallen And close up the breaches thereof and

I will raise up his ruins and will build it as in the days of old.

That hasn't come to pass yet.

And how come how come james quotes amos 9 and acts 15?

As if there's a fulfillment happening right before their eyes.

It says this let me let me just read it to you because you don't want to read it.

Acts 15 15 says this and with this the words of the prophets agree.

Just as it is written.

After this I will return and I will rebuild the tent of david that has fallen.

I will rebuild its ruins and I will restore it.

That the remnant of mankind may seek the lord and all the gentiles who are called by my name says the lord who

makes these things.

Known from old now.

That doesn't agree with your interpretation.

So I ask you again.

Did james go off?

In acts 15 there.

I don't think that's off.

What I think is that when you read amos 9 it talks about the heathen being made a possession.

This is why I wanted to read it from the old testament because you don't like the new testament.

That's why you want to read it from the old testament.

You don't agree with james interpretation.

Do you agree with james interpretation here ash.

I didn't say that.

I don't agree with it.

I didn't say can you be a man?

Yes or no?

Do you agree with his interpretation?

I I don't for one.

I agree with it.

Two.

That's not the interpretation of one text.

And i'm going to tell you why you're disingenuous because i've told you that when the israelites rule again The whole

world is going to seek after god.

We got to talk about this.

So i'm going to read amos 9 in that day I will raise up the tabernacle of david that has fallen.

You need to demonstrate how the tabernacle of david was put back together again and closed up the

breaches thereof.

And I will raise up his ruins and I will build it is in the days of old.

How is the tabernacle of david rebuilt as the days of old right now?

Is that a question for me or is that a question for james.

Because james says.

And with this the words of the prophet agree.

Does he not say with this the words of the prophet agree?

Why does he quote a passage you're claiming needs to be fulfilled by white people in america getting destroyed by

yahweh shai?

When here you have him saying it's being fulfilled with the salvation of the gentiles, by the way, you were actually gentiles.

But this is classic.

It is classic.

It's a classic schooling because the wool has been pulled.

Ask me a question while you run your mouth so you can appear like I don't have an answer for you.

And as I try to explain you filibuster I've told you that the israelites are going to have nations

in captivity.

And i've told you that everybody's going to have to serve god one day and that's our hope.

That's all we ever say is that everybody is going to serve god.

We just say that it's going to take place where the heathen have to be possessed first.

Now that they may possess the remnant of edom and all the heathen which are called

by my name.

Can you read it for james?

Can you read it from james, please?

Because james gives you the divine interpretation.

Not the aria.

Interpretation for a second and debunk everything that i'm saying debunk james.

Don't I don't need to debunk you.

You need to debunk james.

I don't have an issue with james.

Okay, then why are you not letting him be the divine interpreter of this passage and instead

aria is your signal.

You're.

Case that I have an issue with james.

I'm trying to show you how it's all reconciled in my mind.

So.

The way that you beat my logic is hearing it out.

Um, you're the one who's into Beating things.

You told me you can't wait to whip african slaves.

But this is a case of me beating your logic nonetheless.

If you want to call it that james says the remnant of mankind may seek the lord and all the gentiles who called by my

name.

He's not talking about way in the future when you're going to teach moabites the law.

He's talking about right then because he's saying this is being fulfilled in our viewing after the report

of paul.

See you're trying to get away from that, but you need to make sure you stick to acts Instead of running

off to america.

I'm, not trying to get away from it.

What i'm trying to say is that when he talks about everybody turning to god amos nine is not about all

nations turning to god.

Exactly.

Say that again because that shows you disagree with james.

It literally says the remnant of mankind may seek the lord.

Ash says acts nine's not about them turning the lord.

You literally just said I disagree with james, but you don't want to say it because you don't have a backbone.

I said amos nine is not about that.

Now.

You're putting words in my mouth because you're a demon.

Oh, oh, no.

No, see see ash.

No.

No, don't try that ash ash.

Hold on.

I'm going to show you.

I'm going to show you something if james.

If james tells us ash The acts nine is about that then you don't get to say acts nine's not about

that.

You're missing it.

This is the understanding of amos nine from acts.

You see what i'm saying?

So hold on.

Hold on one second here ash ash.

Buster over me.

Okay, ash.

I muted you.

You don't call people on this program demons.

Period.

You called me a sinner.

Because the bible.

But so that's god saying that if you have a problem with god bring it up with him.

But god says all have sinned.

You admitted to being a liar.

That makes you a sinner.

That's a total different thing.

So let me ask you ash with what he said.

I want to find out.

Do you believe that in the future you will have white slaves.

Um, my answer to vocab was lord willing.

So and black slaves don't forget about that.

Okay, so you you're you're you want to you are in favor of instituting slavery, correct?

Um, it's going to be the most highly institutes slavery and i'm all for that.

So are you you're in favor of a person owning another person a possession?

Right, right.

So so that's exactly what god condemns.

Thank you God never had slaves as possession as you just said you're looking forward to.

You're not looking for the for the same slavery.

Are you 100 sure about that?

Uh, yeah, because when you have cattle.

They're to be returned because they're property when you have a runaway slave.

They're not to be returned.

Because they're slavery and and i'm just going to say this I I wanted to verify, you know, like look I I didn't know

You know who you were but vocab said something so i'm gonna i'm gonna check it out.

And so as you guys were talking look what I find online.

Here was right after last week's show.

Man, that was good.

Yeah, this looks exactly like you did you you exactly what what you're saying?

You don't do and vocab is saying you do do you did do.

I mean right there is is the evidence you you did do a show.

Right from the content here.

So are you gonna do another show and and I mean i'm gonna go watch this to see what you're gonna say.

For one.

Yeah, i'm gonna do a show about this for two.

I didn't say what I don't do.

I said what I wasn't here to do notice.

All I did was play a clip of what we talked about.

I didn't do any type of Uh commentary on that so.

Look at this.

Well, well.

Hold on.

Hold on.

You don't do.

I definitely feel that way about you, but these guys right here.

I've only had discussions just just want to show everybody.

These are the thumbnails ash makes.

Notice only one of us ash wants to own black slaves.

You.

But you put the clan hat on me.

Yeah, you see and you know what fog the more I listen to you.

So I thought it was sitting on god.

Ash ash you're saying that but I want I want to bring this up so people can see what it is.

You said that you came in here and your words here.

Ash confounded another christian panel.

Um.

Were you confounded?

No.

No, you.

You asked a question and andrew said because we didn't have time.

He would look at uh, the questions you were asking with regard to the text that you gave.

And and I looked at the tag and i'm still not confounded.

What I did do was correct some things you said incorrectly.

I'll tell you who got confounded today was ash when he couldn't name any.

Anyone from edumia being mentioned in the historical record after 70 ad when he couldn't explain how second samuel 8 11

through 14 Is not a fulfillment of the thing.

He initially brought up numbers 24.

Ash got further confounded by james the apostle when he literally disagreed with his interpretation.

But didn't have the cojones to say i'm disagreeing with james interpretation.

That's who got confounded ash.

Confounded by john.

We don't want to forget john when john says if you say you never sin your you make out a liar.

But when I repost the video everybody's gonna see that I didn't say that I tried to demonstrate

How I agree with james's interpretation and I said that it's not only the interpretation.

Yes, you disagree with james when you try to make james say that you do not sin as

a believer.

Because that's exactly what james is not saying.

He's talking about something else.

I don't know.

I don't know like.

We're getting.

He's talking about john where john says if anyone says they don't have sin or a liar.

He's talking about that.

I'm talking about it says the remnant of mankind may seek the lord.

So I sure hope that then your next show.

Ash says ash is confounded.

By a christian panel.

Because you didn't know what james is talking about.

You just admitted you were confounded.

I hope you'll be honest.

When did I say that?

Oh what james is talking about?

You were confounded by it.

Oh when I said I don't know what james is talking about.

So that's you being confounded according to your definition of confounded.

I didn't say I don't know what james is talking about.

I said, I don't have a problem with james's interpretation.

And it's not just an interpretation of one text.

That's not saying that I don't know what james is talking about unless I mean like

I can understand that if You don't speak the same language as me, but we're both speaking english here and I said

it clearly more than once.

Well, here's here's what I don't understand.

You made a declarative statement.

You said god's not for slavery and I understand that there is such a thing as indentured servitude, but there's also.

Uh bondmen that can be yeah.

Yeah, but see I was really specific so don't see this is.

This is what i'm saying.

Ash literally came on the show to express pros.

Pro slavery viewpoints.

Notice after everything we discussed ash wants to go back to what about that slavery stuff?

And this shows you what hebrewism is.

It's not slavery was wrong.

It's the wrong.

People had the whip instead of indiana jones.

It should have been isaac hayes.

That's your real problem.

It's who had the whip.

Your brand brought up slavery.

After you brought up slavery.

Well, yeah, but you're the first one to mention it.

But but no, no, no, no, no because you were bringing up with your implicit interpretation because I know what you believe.

When you wanted to make isaiah 60 the gospel.

Getting there from luke.

That's what you were doing.

Don't don't lie.

No, hold on.

Wait a minute.

I'm, i'm i'm actually interested in something since you're like sakari minor league ball.

Do you believe it's okay to lie to gentiles?

Yeah, okay.

There we go.

So this shows this is what i'm talking about right here.

This this man.

This man believes a doctrine that says you can break all ten commandments if it's a gentile you do it against so we have

no Reason to believe anything you say ash.

This means you could murder.

This means everything's on on the table on the table for you.

Do you believe you can steal from gentiles ash?

I believe it's gonna happen.

I think I don't know.

No, I didn't ask that.

Do you believe you can steal from gentiles?

Is it is it?

Permitted by god's law.

Forget about man's law under your one west reading.

Is it permitted to steal from gentiles right now ash if you can?

Christ said be harmless as it does that's not harmless.

Why can't you say yes or no, you love to ask people questions and when someone asks you a direct question you don't

answer.

Is that not an answer about god's law when I reference what christ said ash?

Do you believe right now you can steal from gentiles?

Yes or no?

No, why not?

I just said it.

But but this is the problem.

Because you keep.

So you can lie, but you can't steal.

Hold on.

But then how is lying to gentiles being harmless as a dove towards them.

Ash.

How does lying to a gentile harm them?

Let's there's a great let's give some examples.

Let's say that you um, give a gentile incorrect change or take incorrect change.

Let's say that you're a stockbroker and you specifically tell the gentiles.

It's one thing when it's another.

Let's say that you're an irs agent and you tell the gentiles because they're gentiles.

It's one thing and not another.

There's all kinds of ways.

You could harm them from lying to them.

What are you talking about?

Okay, I see what you mean.

That would that would be that would be not smart.

Is it moral though?

Moral, yeah, because you're our enemies.

Okay, so this.

If you so then if you can lie to them towards harm, then why can't you steal from them ash?

Hold on.

I want to.

I mean I think he believes in stealing from gentiles because he thinks you guys are gentiles and he's been stealing the time the whole show.

Hold on ash.

Did I just hear you?

Right?

Did you say we are your enemies?

Yes.

Okay, so so you you come on the show in good faith.

We gave you what 45 minutes longer than we we were going to.

And you you've you've called one guest a d a devil or demon.

I forget which one.

You're Our enemies you're then you're you're then hold on I'm going to point because I the

purpose of this show is to teach apologetics and I need to teach the audience.

What you did so people see it?

So go back to what he said.

He claimed with vocab that you know That we're the whole thing when it came to the slavery that this was

an issue where he was.

That vocab was playing games with words was the accusation.

I forget exactly how he said it.

But what does he then say?

I did not say anything about The slavery I said very specifically Is

it okay to own another human being he said yes.

And the scripture says no then he The the idea of

Slavery.

No, I wasn't I was against ownership another human being so you're twisting it

44 say about that.

What verse leviticus 25 and 44?

Because it juxtaposes a bond servant.

From guess what an indentured servant?

That's why I says there a difference.

And see this is why.

And I asked very specifically.

Didn't I didn't I didn't I.

What did I ask ash?

I asked about ownership.

Ownership.

Yeah, okay.

Property.

Correct.

There's two different types of slavery here and and i'd said it's okay.

Ash ash.

Yes, don't play the games.

I I didn't talk about the different types of slavery and that's I did.

I talked about ownership.

I talked about possession.

You said yes, you believe in possessing another human being owning someone.

The bible disagrees with that because he he gives the exact reason of you don't return a

Runaway slave.

Why they're not possession, but a cow is what is leviticus 25 and 44?

Wait, wait, he just asked you a question.

Why don't you answer the question?

Why do you have to return a cow but not a slave.

I'm answering the question and because you guys are riled up.

You're you're not.

So, you know why they're riled up.

Because they realize who you are now.

They didn't know.

And when I expose it We don't they don't like.

They don't like sin and dishonesty and they don't like people who love violence like you.

That's why.

The problem is when you're riled up and you have an opponent and the audience is watching.

You said something about ownership.

You said something that's incorrect.

I understand that you're riled up.

I'd be a little upset.

Okay, notice notice.

Ash ash.

This is great.

He remember earlier.

What's the gentleman's name?

I'd appreciate if you don't gaslight me.

What is he doing right now instead of answering the questions and dealing with it.

It's because you're emotional that's that's the issue here.

It's not that i'm misunderstanding the text or not that i'm lying or not that i'm a duplicitous two -faced snake.

None of that's the problem.

The problem is you're riled up Ash.

Answer the questions, please.

Real quick.

Let me clear something up.

What is your name with the manure on your shirt?

No, you don't have to don't answer it.

Don't answer his questions.

What's your real name?

What's your real name?

Ash ash.

What's your real name?

Because what i'm saying, what's your real name?

Ash?

My name is ash.

What's your real name?

Ash?

Mind your damn business.

Okay, exactly.

So look at this.

Look at this.

This is what i'm saying with this guy I put.

I put him in the back.

Okay, you put him in the back.

Okay I'm, sorry.

I know you guys don't normally run your show that way.

I don't normally operate that way with him but after dealing with him twice and then seeing his program afterwards

I wanted to bring it out to let you see what he really is.

I'm glad i'm glad because you know.

Look, i'm trying to be polite with people if I don't I don't know who they are because this show you as you know.

Vocab anyone could come in right?

So.

You know, we try to answer questions.

I if I don't know a passage.

Now granted the background to it, you know, because you've dealt with these guys.

You've had them on the show.

I I mean he was going off for 40 minutes 45 minutes and i'm going numbers

24 isaiah 63.

I eventually asked like where's this going?

Why are we going here?

He was taking you on a rabbit trail to slavery.

That was his whole point.

So so when he's when he was doing that My first thought was what's the point?

What's the what's the big thing?

Where are we going?

And then when he kept mentioning edom and everything kept pointing to edom I was thinking is he gonna get

to.

He's gonna own edomites and they're gonna stomp on our backs and they're gonna They're gonna run us like slaves.

I had ready for that Deuteronomy 23 7 because this is one that

I bring up when they bring up the edomites where it says You shall not abhor an edomite

because they always call me an edomite, which I don't get because i'm actually an israelite.

They think you're an amalekite though.

Yeah.

They so their view is so so if you look at esau's dissent.

It's one of them's amalek and then that's where you get the amalekites from.

Uh one wester, so this is not all hebrews elect.

I just want to make that clear a lot of.

A lot of hebrews elites, uh of the non -one west variety believe that if you're a jewish, you're actually of japheth.

Which is sort of a you're still not Semitic like that, but it's less offensive than being of edom

because of what one westers how they misuse those prophecies.

So here you've got him saying in his mind.

You're of amalek.

That's why he may went out of his way to refer to amalek.

Remember when he said they're the top what he's saying by that is coded language for jews control stuff.

That's what actually what he was saying by that.

So some of these hebrews lights since they've ran into the brick wall of christian apologists.

They're taking a subtler tactic now.

So they're saying stuff without saying it.

But then they play it back for their audience who knows the codes and their audience gets all hyped up on one west gas.

And so that's what he's doing.

So people aren't realizing what they're saying.

Then he plays this for his audience and they're quam yasha rollin, uh the thing to death because they know what they're

implying by it.

I just i'm just saying that's kind of what he was doing.

Yeah, and and see I and I wouldn't have picked up on that honestly because i'm not following it like like you do right?

The the thing is is that you know.

When you said this is what they do and I I go out find his youtube channel and that's exactly you know I didn't look him up last week.

Well saying him specifically.

I said him specifically because i've had lots of hebrews lights come on my program Smoke room that I do and act

very honorably and speak honorably afterwards.

To me, I don't see it, you know, it's funny because they'll talk about masculinity and all this.

I do not find it to be masculine or manly.

When you come on someone treats you with respect and honor and dignity.

Even in a disagreement and then you basically talk crap behind their back.

In a public way and do things like put clan hats on them.

Do you see that's not manly?

That's not masculine.

Stand face to face say what it is and then act the same way in private with your audience.

But he doesn't do that and he's trying to gain notoriety off of it.

He's trying to call into all the shows and do this.

Is sort of his mo ash.

Come up with some original content.

Maybe do that, you know come up with some original content instead of ripping off the the so -called white man.

If that's the way you want to look at it.

You know come up with some original content, bro.

I mean your derivative of sakari and now your derivative of apologetics programs.

What is this?

Hmm, you know, I mean the thing is is that When we look at it, you know,

this is pure racism.

Okay, when when someone sits there and says that because of the color of their skin they're going to own other people.

He's you know, you're not against um you know I

mean When you're when you're in favor of slavery of owning another human being.

As property and and and I want to be clear that's the question I asked him.

Yeah, okay.

The question was About owning another person as property.

So he wants to go.

Oh, well the bible says there's different kinds.

Yeah, I know the bible talks about different kinds of slaves.

What I asked him Was not you know these different types of slavery, which it is.

I asked a very specific question because it's a specific question answered in scripture.

And it's one he didn't want to have to address what the scripture says.

You know, we looked at the different hebrew words that he was bringing up and it wasn't meaning what what he was claiming they were

meaning.

This is the the thing, you know, one of the things that you find and and vocab I know you you've dealt with this a lot.

We had a we had a hebrew israelite come in a couple weeks ago as well.

Wanted to debate the deity of christ and that's really folks what I wanted to get to tonight.

What I was my goal was because I knew he denies the deity of christ my concern for ash.

Is he he he wants to sit there and and and think that God most high is going to give him slaves.

Possibly I could tell you what god is going to give him according to scripture.

It's not me saying it ash.

It's scripture.

You're a liar.

You justified lying.

You said you can lie to gentiles.

So what it is is it's not that you don't lie anymore.

You justify lying and saying it's okay just like muslims do to say you're

protecting the faith maybe.

But what you're doing is sinning.

Is as you say you don't sin and what you Have to look forward to is eternity in a lake of fire.

That's why I wanted to get the biblical gospel explained to him.

That was my goal.

Because once I realized he denies the deity of christ.

I knew he's destined for hell.

That's where he's going and and you saw that his gospel message is a political one.

It's no different than the pharisees.

That are also going to hell.

That jesus was going to come and be a political leader that the messiah would be a political leader.

So so rob is saying thanks for calling them out vocab and and I I do thank you for coming in because I wouldn't have

picked up on any of that because I hadn't dealt with these guys, right?

Before.

You know, I was uh, I was texting pastor darren stid right when vocab came on with the fire

and uh, And I said, you know, I don't I don't look into to hebrew israelites.

I don't but vocab is definitely making me want to right now.

Yeah.

Yeah, they are growing and uh anytime now people go live on places like

clubhouse for example uh, they just swarm the clubhouse rooms and.

And people are just trying to do like basic bible studies and they come in there.

And want to topsy -turvy the whole thing and talk about what they want to talk about and a lot of people were.

Unaware that they're even an issue and unaware of their beliefs and they're getting more clever because this is bound to happen.

When we first started, uh, really opposing them in public about six years ago.

Uh, they weren't ready for it at all.

But now some of these guys have been sitting back in the cut and looking at all these people lose battles.

Now, they'll never say that because this is a this is a religion of uh, proclaiming victory and

Unjustified triumphalism, but they've been watching and they're like, we're not going to take that approach.

We're not going to take that that we're going to be more subtle and clever and slick.

We're going to do things this other way and that's why he didn't want to answer any questions.

That's why he's got certain verses.

He's trying to connect and drag you guys all over without actually saying what he's going to say.

But then it makes content for him later and he can say oh look I bamboozled these guys.

I confounded them.

That's a word is confounded.

Um, that's sort of a word they take from the kjv and then overuse and so that's what's going on.

And that's really interesting because you know, he's saying it's okay to lie to gentiles.

But who's he really lying to his own followers when he says we were confounded.

He didn't confound us.

I mean i'm gonna go back and listen to what he did.

And you know, maybe maybe next week we'll play whatever he does this week and and and you know.

Play the video and show but you know what it used to be vocab was this I used to.

When we when we'd have these folks come in.