Hebrew Israelites Return then Q&A

So it's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that could be done for okay. So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing. Is it is it the only thing or is it not. Do you need to be baptized or not?

Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient. It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good.

Introduction and Technical Setup

To answer your questions. Your host. From striving for eternity ministries.

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions. Any questions you got about God and the Bible we can answer them here. Just remember. I don't know is a Perfectly good answer.

So with that let me bring in mr. Drew Vanita.

Hello, it's good to be back with you. Wait, it says drew von need a matter of theology.

But when was the last time you were on? Last. Okay, just checking. I just for the record. Hey Chris off like, you know, give this guy a hard time here. You know, well actually Chris is probably going.

Hey if he wants to promote the podcast, he never is on, you know.

But I started it. Yeah.

So Facebook is acting weird for us. It seems that it's complaining that we can't stream. Now originally it was giving us trouble in the apologetics live group. Now it's giving us trouble in Christian apologetics group and the Justin Peters group.

You know. Can't can't we lost access to your Facebook account. Really? Why? Yeah.

Yeah, Facebook's a bunch of meanies they're trying to crack down one at a time one. Yeah. Yeah, so we're supposed to get some.

Hebrew Israelites in we'll see if they a Shah and see if he comes back in. We're hoping he does. I did get a Message if you remember a couple weeks ago. We had a lady that was pretty critical of Calvinism and We weren't quite sure we asked her to come in.

I hope she does but she she did message and say that she read through Ephesians and it helped her to understand some things a little bit better. So I see a shot is there in Watching on YouTube. So we'll wait for him to come in.

But so, you know, how are you doing there, buddy?

I'm I'm doing well, I'm doing well. I'm starting training for a new job for life insurance, so prayerfully, I hope that goes. I go that goes well, but I mean I'm I can't be doing as good as you are because.

You just celebrated a birthday I I hit the speed limit in New Jersey. Double fives. Yeah, 55. So happy birthday Andrew. Yeah, and so Oh a Shah is asking for the email. The email I mean you you already know he already know should know how to get in because he got in last week just go to a project live comm and Click the duck icon the stream yard icon and you're in.

Yep. So that's how you do it. And anyone can come in so anyone can come in and That way if you want you come on in ask any questions you have the first hour. We we're gonna deal hopefully with a shot answering his questions.

I read through numbers 24. I wasn't quite sure where he was going with that, so we'll have to get him on to discuss and. But let's deal with the in the news section here. I kind of triggered you before we went live didn't I?

The UN, Sexual Ethics, and the Decline of Moral Restraint

Yeah, I mean it's.

You know, the crazy thing is is I think I think you I know dr. White. Years ago when the Obergefell decision came down. There you guys were saying this is the step one of the next where it's going. Yep.

Yeah, so today the UN has declared that children Have I mean it makes sense in their worldview because they think a child can you know Five-year-old could determine its gender and know everything that all the ramifications of that, right?

So Why not just say well children as young as five can also consent to sexual relations and so the UN has now declared that children can Be cognizant to consent to sexual relations, which basically you destroys a whole bunch of statutory rape laws.

Yeah, you're you know, so so we said this years ago, I mean this this is now they're gonna look to make this legal. The the next step is incest. That you know, if you listen to can't Candace Owens. She has been doing a lot of stuff You know granted, I'm just basically what she said, but she has has claimed that the number one thing that they search for in these porn sites is Brothers and sisters having things together.

So Gravity of man. Yeah, so incest is next and then bestiality follows. So, you know, it's gonna be I mean they're ready Pushing in at least in Utah for multiple wives again or multiple husbands. So so we're seeing a complete breakdown.

So I mean this as we look at it is Where the sinful nature of man wants to go? Because they just want to serve their own flesh deny that they're accountable to a infinitely holy infinitely just God and When you try to remove That then what ends up happening?

You've nothing else you have nothing to to keep you accountable. But when you realize you're accountable to an infinitely holy infinitely just oh and by the way Omniscient God who knows Everything you do even when you're alone.

Guess what? He You you're accountable to him. He knows everything. You know.

With that with what the what the UN is saying. I want to give some encouragement to the Saints out there if we look at the the book of Romans the first chapter of Romans and First let's just back if you know anything about Rome.

Rome was the epicenter of everything bad at that time. All roads led to Rome. Because that was the center of trade and commerce and everything that was wicked and vile. Centered in Rome. And yet when Paul writes his letter to the Romans, what is he doing?

He's praising them for their great faith in the middle of that cesspool of sin. So what we need to do is we need to hold fast to the gospel cling to the scriptures and Remember that we must have faith.

Yeah.

That's right. Now the second news article as we wait for a shot. Come on in. We might have some other guests, but this this Folks, I'm just gonna say if you've tuned in to apologetics live. Especially for the last three years.

This is not gonna be news to you I get it, but to a lot of the world. This was this is a shocker drew shocker there people are gonna be surprised by this but You know. Hey, let me just read. I'll read the headline.

CDC director admits vaccinated individuals can transmit kovat 19 to others. Yeah, we've only known that For two years two and a half years. We've been pointing that out. But hey, hey CDC's finally caught up to apologetics live.

Welcome to the party. You should have listened to us First rather than what did it YouTube did? Oh, that's right. YouTube dinged us for saying masks don't work and you could spread kovat to people even if vaccinated that we got in big trouble because we said Vaccinated people the vaccines don't stop you from getting kovat.

Nor stop you from spreading kovat therefore we saw no reason for The vaccines the way they claimed them. That's right. And that's what we so that's that's kind of what we're. You know, we're dealing with uh, well welcome.

We want to welcome cdc to uh, 2023. We're glad you're here and caught up with everybody else glad you caught up to us from where we were in 2021. It only took you two years two and a half years to get here, but welcome to the party cdc um.

That they want to know the truth. They're welcome to ask us first. Yeah. We could tell them because clearly.

Their agenda. Finally caught up to truth. Yeah. Well, you know what the next thing is, right? The next thing is going to be them admitting that the uh, the vaccine is harming people.

Ha ha. Yeah, yeah, that is that is coming. So, uh, so that's with the in the news section. So here's what we're going to do today folks. Uh, we want to get into discussing a shot. It just got in so we want to discuss with a sha uh.

He he had brought up numbers 24. Uh 17 to 20. So we want to discuss that. I really I I did look at it. I I it was hard for me to do like in-depth study only because I wasn't sure what his view really was with it, so um.

Yeah, I think I think with the numbers. I think his question was is this about christ? Yeah, and that's that's kind of what I thought.

Um so and and actually when I realized I was like this this is I mean There's an interesting context behind all this but let's let us bring and so what we're going to do is we're going to bring A shy in we'll go to the top of the hour and then we're going to do q a so any questions you guys have.

Uh, you can even ask them now if you want to ask them in chat. And we'll we'll spot them. But if you really want to make sure your question gets asked The best way to do that is go to apologetics live .com.

Scroll down to the you can watch it there if you want, but scroll down to the duck icon. That's the stream yard. Click on that join us in the discussion as a sha has done and then you Can get your question asked so that's the best way.

So let me bring a shot in sir. How are you? Are you there? We don't have him on camera. Yeah, are you able to hear me? Yeah, I hear you. There we go. Okay, perfect. So i'm doing well on yourself. Good good.

You know, it's it's really it's maybe it's good I was gonna say it's not good that you're not on camera. Maybe it is good because out of the three of us you're probably the best looking one of us.

So you're having drew and I here. It's hard because i'm pretty good looking. Yeah.

You obviously don't look in a mirror my friend. No, uh. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, so so welcome back, um on I want to give you you you brought up and we didn't really have time last week um. To talk about the numbers 24.

Let me let me if I could can I give just some background with with numbers really? Uh, it's it starts in 22 goes to 25. Um is is one. If I can give the overview, is that that okay with you? Asha. Um, you could do that.

Yeah, he's he asha's going. Yeah, you could do it. It's your show, dude. But uh, no, so so this is son this is talking about an individual known as balaam uh balaam is an interesting individual because if you read numbers 22 23 24 And not 25 you're gonna think balaam's a pretty good guy.

But as we read the rest of scripture we end up realizing that chapter 25 is attributed to balaam. In fact, jude will will refer to it as council of balaam and elsewhere. It talks about greed and things.

So what what basically occurred was the israelites were coming into the land? Uh balak who is king realized like hey, we're watching these israelites just take over city after city after city so there's this guy balaam and balaam is uh.

You know, he is a guy who is um. An oracle so he's he's a prophet of god and he's one who um Basically goes and you know that balak wanted wanted balaam to curse the israelites. And so What we end up having is Is the the result is that balak goes to balaam and says hey will you come and curse the israelites for me?

Well balaam goes and says you know what I you know, I I can't god says I can't go. But he really wanted the money he was greedy as we see in other passages of scripture. So the guys go and they come back with even more um and so What ends up happening is?

He gets greedy. He really wants to go. He's begging the lord and this is this is one thing that I will say folks if uh, you you don't realize this, hopefully you never realize this the hard way, but when you keep.

When you pressure like you try to force your will on god. A lot of times god will give you over to that and he did that with balam. He gave balam over to his desire for money. And balam seems like he's doing okay because he's saying i'm only going to say what god lets me say and this is a case where he gets on his donkey and the donkey sees the lord, but balam doesn't and the donkey like keeps brushing up, you know and and hurting, uh balam as he gets his legs caught and things and Um won't move and that he's smacking the donkey and the donkey ends up talking.

And then he sees the lord with a fiery sword and says oh, okay. But when he goes there in you end up seeing in in chapter 22, uh, sorry 23 24. Balak asks brings him to the high places to see israel and curse them and and three times balam blesses them and balak gets upset and basically says i'm not giving you the money because I told you to uh to curse them and they.

They end up blessing instead. So he so he kind of feels he got. Uh, he he was paying him to do one thing, but he says hey I told you I can only say what god says. Now in numbers 25 what's credited to balam the council of balam is balam really wants the money.

He can't get it. He doesn't and this is something folks There's a lot of people. They want to seem spiritual. I'm gonna do the right thing. They seem spiritual. But their whole time their heart is given over in this case with balam to greed.

And so he palim wanted the money. But he wants to seem spiritual and how he gets it. So instead of cursing he knows he he's he's not going to curse israel because god hasn't given him to that to say. So what does he do?

He ends up Convincing balak to say hey give your wives to them or give your daughters to them. They'll marry them as wives. God will then Judge them for that because they shouldn't do that and then you don't have to worry because their own god Will end up cursing them and so that is actually what did end up happening Um, and so that is the council that what's known as the council of balam.

So with that as a background we're in numbers 24. Uh and that and so you had some questions with this from uh, 17 to 20 so I'll ask uh asha if you wouldn't mind reading the sections you want to discuss and then We could uh, and then i'm going to need to have your understanding of what you what your question is.

All right for sure. So numbers 24 and 17 reads as such I shall see him but not now. I shall behold him but not nigh. There shall come a star out of jacob and a scepter shall rise out of israel And shall smite the corners of moab and destroy all the children of seth.

Since there's so much being said. Um, we can do a section by section. Sure 17. Okay, so my analysis of this is a prophecy talking about a day when who the world calls christ will come the scepter rising out of jacob And out of israel and it's saying that one day he's gonna smite the corners or interpret in other translations as princes of moab and destroy All the children of seth.

Uh, this is to be interpreted as a lot of the children of seth. Because he's not going to destroy everybody on the planet of earth. Uh, what would your analysis be?

Well. So looking at this so I um He's he's talking here about you know, this isn't you know, verse 15 is actually where he starts the discourse right? It's an oracle of balaam right, uh who. An oracle of the man whose eye is uncovered and i'm reading out of the legacy standard.

Is that that okay with you? Okay Ash, i'm, sorry. I'm, sorry ash Forgive me for that. And by the way, there's a uh, just for folks listening. There is a crackling noise on ash when he speaks. Um, I I was hearing that so i'm not sure what that is.

It might be some feedback Uh or electronics near the the mic just so people know. Um. The so it says the the oracle hears the word of god and knows the knowledge of the most high who bears the vision of the almighty falling down.

Yet having his eyes opened and then to what you read. I I see I see him. But not now I behold him but not near a star that comes forth from jacob a scepter from the rise of israel. Uh and uh and shall crush the head of moab tear down the sons of seth so moab being one of the areas that really Wasn't truly crushed.

Uh, I I until david's time um and so I I you know, this is someone who's who's rising up from jacob from the the people of israel um. And so from this one verse i'm going to look at this and say You know it if it's speaking of an individual um.

You know, I and I don't know that it is I I would you know, if it's an individual maybe maybe david but I think more what it's speaking of is just the fact that the that the nation of israel as the israelites come in remember the the context right that this is the um.

The israelites are coming in conquering balaam is being told to to Curse them so that they're that they won't take over balak and so balam's telling balak and You know all of the the people there that You know, they are going to conquer um.

So I don't I don't know that it's a if I can say it's a specific person, but the fact that it's it mentions Moab, I mean if you go back, let me just give some context numbers 22 one. And then the sons of israel set out and camped in the plains of moab beyond jordan opposite jericho, so when we think about where they are there, you know, he's saying this that you know, so that Basically israel is going to rise up um, and they're going to rise up.

You know. And they're in they're in that land so they're it's it's that they're going to crush moab. Um, I think that this is within I I think he's speaking within that time frame. Uh in numbers, so it could be the israelites themselves.

That are there at that time and that that I think would be more fitting with the immediate context. Fair enough, and then I'm sorry that was a little bit longer, but i'm just trying to Give some of the context.

No, that's all right, so uh moving on it says and edom shall be a possession seer also shall be a possession for his enemies and israel shall do valiantly. This adds more of the context of the prophecy um this is the first.

This is the first glimpse that we get of what's going to happen to mount seer after the Prophets of say isaiah the 63rd chapter. Well, let's stay within If we can. I'm just making a reference of okay, okay, but i'm saying it's it's founded on future prophecies where it says that we are going to Extinguish edom.

There's also uh another prophecy in obadiah where edom will be Extinguished and their land will be inhabited by the israelites. So, you know, I would say that this remains to appear to be a future prophecy Because the extermination of esau didn't happen, especially during the time of david.

And israel as a whole didn't go to war with the edomites to Nearly extinguish them on any level. What would your analysis be in that portion?

Um, so let's let's see this is All right. I was trying to you mentioned. So I was trying to look it up. So so, uh, you're talking verse 18. So, um and edom Shall be a possession so. You know um I I think that what this is talking about is the fact that again, I think sticking with that context The is it's a it's a promise that the israelites are going to take over not only moab but edom uh.

You know that that they're they're, you know, they're all Valently, it's just I think it's continuing with the fact that they're going to have uh that they would have a uh, complete destruction or Of of the the nations that are in the land right.

So. To your recollection did that happen during david's time?

It it actually happened. Uh during joshua's time, but not completely uh, it it happened in David's time to an extent as well. Um but again, you know, there's the the a lot of the people I think died out over over time just being uh restricted in in areas um a lot of the different tribes in that land.

You know in the the land area that we're talking about of israel um really, I think when when You have the assyrians came in and they just moved people you know the israelites and and this is just a side note, but one of the things people always ask why are all the the the the israelites have all these laws these these Holiness laws or separation laws.

And and really I think what it was was when they were taking captive into captivity it was that That separation from the the gentiles that kept them uh as a nation where all the other nations just kind of Blended in became a melting pot and and were lost.

Absolutely.

So what I want to buckle down on before we move on. Because I think it's important to uh follow a linear logic, but not only that but when someone says something to nail down what they've said with Scripture and i'm glad that you mentioned that you know, these things didn't happen entirely.

That they were partial. The prophecy says that these things are going to be happening on a absolute basis, so.

Where that where it says it's an absolute basis.

So it says edom shall be a possession seer also shall be a possession for Enemy and israel shall do value. It also says that he's going to crush the corners of moab and destroy all the children of seth.

The latter end of this prophecy says i'm going to read from 19 to 20. Just because the general idea it doesn't get it doesn't get too much broader. Okay. So out of jacob shall come he that shall have dominion.

And they shall destroy him that remaineth of the city. So david was a man of war. We can agree upon this. He fought until he died of an old age and then the nations round about him were quieted. So that solomon could rule The tabernacle of david in peace.

We can agree on that. Verse 20 says and when he looked on amalek He took up his parable and said amalek Was the first of the nations. But his latter end is that he shall perish forever. The proper interpretation is that Amalek is at the top of the nations.

He wasn't the first nations who exist. So what we can look at is that? Okay, we look at first samuel we see when saul was instructed to Destroy the amalek. He didn't perish forever because saw he he sought to Keep some of the amalek amalekites alive.

We see later in the scriptures where there are still agagites roaming uh, a lot of uh, a lot of people. Believe that the word agagite Is a title that goes to edomite rulership. In fact, alexander the great.

He said he came from the timani dynasty, but when you look at his lineage in books like maccabees and so forth he's rendered as an agagite. But that's that's that's swallowing a lot. But what i'm saying when I say that it's going to be something that happens.

Absolutely I'm saying because we have prophecies that say that Edom is still Going to be destroyed. And it talks about this in isaiah 63. So this is where I want to solidify my logic and what I would like for you to do is combat that so it says Who is this?

That cometh from edom with dyed garments from basra. That's the capital of edom. Where are you at? Isaiah the 63rd chapter. Oh, okay. Hold on. And what you'll find is that Description of prophecy about christ.

Isaiah 63 what? And i'm starting at verse one verse one. Okay.

Oh, maybe that's why I didn't understand. I did. I. I had written down isaiah 60 1 to 12, but if it was isaiah 63 that was okay.

Yeah, isaiah 60 is a little bit less specific and it touches on what's going to happen to all the children of set. In the latter days isaiah 63 talks about what's going to happen to the edomites. While he's delivering the children of israel.

Okay, we're going to reflect when we're the israelites ever captive to The edomites but that's neither here nor there at this point. So it says who is this that cometh from edom with dyed garments from basra?

This that is glorious in his apparel traveling in the greatness of his strength. I that speak in righteousness mighty to say Wherefore art thou red and thine apparel and thy garments like them that tread in a wine vat?

So what we're doing again, we're getting the backdrop. We're getting the setting of where this prophecy is taking place. It's edom. And this person that is going to be treading down edom As if he treads in a wine vat is him that is mighty to say this is just Reiterating for the audience because it's a mouthful.

I'm now at verse three where it says I have trodden the winepress alone. And of the people there was none with me. For I will tread them in mine anger and trample them in my fury and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments.

And I will stain all my raiment for the day of vengeance is in my heart and the year of my redeem is come so that's where. The prophecy ends when it comes to what's going to happen to edom in the last day.

Talking about their absolute destruction.

What do you make of that? So are you tying these two passages together just because they both mention the word edom?

Um, absolutely not. I'm tying them together because we see that Edom wasn't conquered by israel and their land wasn't taken. In fact, it was instructed for them not to take the land of edom. Because.

You know because I mean I I guess I guess i'm still back in numbers 24.

What i'm doing is saying that there's a precedent for my logic and it's that Edom is not destined to have their land taken away from them until the latter days. When you look in numbers 24 starting at verse 17 It talks about not only edom being a possession but seer being a possession.

Also, that's their land. Right when you look at the israelites when they're making their pilgrimage through the wilderness They're instructed by the most high not to take their land. You familiar with that?

Yeah, so I guess um.

I'm, just trying to look up the the word specifically here for um, let me just Check the wording for For what you have here for possession. It's yoresha. Yeah, and it means to become property or to occupy.

Yeah, because I mean the word that uh, I mean I was looking up earlier and this is only used in two places and these are the two places so um. That makes it kind of hard. So let's do some Digging into some other books here to see what we could find with that.

Yeah, so it's harder when we have a word that's not used in a whole lot of places um. So i'm gonna i'm just because I I I guess from the english, right? Um, I look at this and say well a possession doesn't Doesn't dictate in a complete destruction as you were saying um.

And in verse 20, I was looking this up earlier because you said that uh, elimelech Was the first of the nations you said top of the nations and that that was that was one was interesting because that word Um has the idea of first fruits.

It's actually used um. Not as top but as beginning it's it's the same word in genesis 1 -1 in the beginning um. And so it's more Was the first fruits of nations? Uh, so I don't know if I don't know if that makes a difference with what you're thinking but.

When you talk about first fruits, is that not a pedo store?

Well In in the idea of it Is and the way the words translated the most is beginning. Uh, so it's the idea of the beginning of something the the start of something. So the first fruits were usually the the the the first fruit picked at the beginning of the the harvest.

Um, that's the idea of it. So it's a first or beginning um. And and i'm not sure if top. When you're saying top are you meaning it as in priority?

It's it's more so direct. Okay, so. What we can look at is that there's a table of nations. There are a list of nations that are set to rule. But they're not described directly when daniel breaks down this prophecy that he gets from nebuchadnezzar, right?

We just know that there's going to be an order that takes place after babylon.

No, we know the nations he tells us it's. It goes from babylon medo-persia greek rome.

Right, and then there's the feet of my recruit clay and brass. What nation is that? That's rome. Rome. Rome is the nation of my reclay and brass.

Yeah, because there seems to be a break in there because it's a continuous. So so I I would see that that myer that last nation hasn't arisen yet.

It hasn't risen yet. Yeah, and and I would I would beg to differ and I would say that that's the Uh, some people call it dispensation that we're living in now. And I would say that that nation isn't uh necessarily a land mass just like rome wasn't.

I would say that it is a power structure that's based off of. Um the same elements that rome was comprised of. They've just got a broader reach now, you know.

Yeah, that's why many people think it'll be like the eu or something like that. It'll be. I mean, it's it's clear that I mean the way we we we know it's rome as it says that you know, the uh, the prince who who you know whoever destroys the Uh the temple it's the prince of that of that nation that that comes in the end times, so um.

That would I mean rome destroyed the temple. So.

Right, and then uh that's prophesied also about in daniel the ninth chapter. So we see so we can we can make certain comparisons and we can have a discussion about this prophecy another day because There are a lot of parallels that need to be drawn and weighed out.

So, you know i'll accept your answer when it comes to that and we can talk about that another time um. So what we see is that? The land of edom is meant to be trodden down and the edomites with it in the latter days.

Obadiah also prophesies of this ultimate destruction of edom. So i'm lining those things based off of the fact that esau wasn't even nearly Extinguished. In fact herod was an idumi and there was a whole idumian dynasty reigning during the time of crack.

The question would have to become When after that were the edomites exterminated? So we see that there's a continuity of edomites. We see that they still have to be crushed.

Well, well, okay, but When we look at it price is the one that's supposed to do it. So staying with with the context here in verse 18. Right edom shall be a possession now granted the word that we have here in hebrews only used In verse 18, it's used twice in verse 18.

It's the only two usages in the old testament um, so i i'm looking at the theological word book of the old testament because that will go into More usages outside of scripture. It'll give usages uh of of even root words, um, and so they're they're making the point that it's a possession and A a similar word from it is a inheritance.

So they're making the point that the word possession is is a possession as if as an inheritance and so. All that israel would need to do is take the land which they did do at this time. To possess edom.

Right because they edom no longer has that inheritance of the land if israel is now possessing it. Uh, which which they did at you know in you know after the after numbers, right? We we have them taking the land uh in joshua's time.

Can you demonstrate edom being taken and possessed?

You mean the land areas right? Yeah. Well, that's the whole book of joshua talks about the conquering of the land.

What what i'm saying is can you demonstrate edom specifically? With the text like you know how i'm going to bible verses and i'm not Just saying things if you if you could. I would like for my own edification if you could demonstrate that with the text.

Yeah, okay. It would it might take me a bit here, but That's good. Let me just look up and see I can at least quickly search for edom and Go through joshua see if they're mentioned um. But the that that area of land Uh, you know what was mentioned.