October 1, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white and Good afternoon.

Welcome. Good morning, whatever it is. It's a Friday and That's because we had the technical difficulties yesterday.

That's the only way I'm going to describe it And I'm going to leave it that but we weren't here at at 4 o 'clock or at 430 or 5 yesterday, so we're here now and that way all of you addicts and people who you know send us emails and and say you've got to do this that and the other thing and Where's where why isn't the link working and various other things like that?

You won't be bothering us the whole weekend by saying but there's only one Dividing lineup and I need to have two and and things like that.

So anyway Yeah, it's it's good with you this afternoon morning, but it's a morning for me

It's it's still early sort of out here But that'll be changing what the end of the month sometime toward the end this month

Then it'll be one o 'clock Eastern Daylight Time, but it'll still be 11 o 'clock my time because we don't play with clocks out here so that's just the way it's going to be today on the program a

Couple of days ago coach Who comes into our channel every once in a blue moon?

Mentioned to me that he had been rather busy with a Thread on the

Catholic answers forums and I I had signed up when they first came on. I Think they know who

I am now because I can't get in anymore I mean I can read stuff, but I can't email people or anything like that I've requested the you know password stuff.

I've tried signing up under another email address valid email address Nothing zip zero nada. So I think

I think they're on to me and don't want me around there so they just sort of let those requests go bye -bye, but there is a a thread under the non

Catholic religions called James White debate. It was started August 22nd of this year at 10 31 p .m.

By a member by the name of full of truth and It's Someone channels told me

I'm banned well no one bothered to tell me that and Anyway It is just absolutely fascinating the it was about the

Staples debate on sola scriptura which took place in Fulton, California back about what 96 something like that and It's available on at straight gate still if straight gate still up.

I assume I haven't heard that it's not and You know you listen to that debate

I Just sort of you know I'm one of those folks that just sort of figures You know if if that kind of argumentation and that kind of performance by mr.

Staples is is going to impress somebody then You know I'm not the kind of person is going to reach them

You know there's just certain people that You don't you know

I realize I'm not cut out to reach every person that there is there's just certain folks that don't find consistency or logical argumentation to be compelling and You know

I I just remember that was the debate where? There was that the people were lining up to ask questions and Sort of got quiet for a second and someone screamed out

The Eucharist and all the Catholics like You know and you're just like wow this is really strange.

You know sort of the Howard Dean stuff and You know People who think that's cool and exciting and and all just they're not gonna find me to be overly compelling

There's a it's sort of like these the political debates that was not a debate last night by the way that was a fashion show

And a press conference squished into one and You know that's why it's not even a debate.

There's no. There's no give -and -take. There's no interaction. There's no there's not enough time to even make a point at all that's not a debate and So you know if anyone's wondering you know what do you think about those debates well when they have one let me know

Because so far that would have them But anyways back to this thread on the Catholic answers forum by the way if you want to find it you go this to the second page of of the topics under non -catholic religions and you'll find

James White debate and I just wanted to read some of these things respond to him because It's absolutely amazing the vast majority of people do not know me in fact

I'm gonna read one here where this this the first one is number three message number three

August 23rd 413 a .m. From cat that's the person's board name is cat.

I Think James White is arrogant and unloving I've read several of his fictional debates, and they always set the other person up to look like a fool

This isn't Christianity. This isn't the fruit of the spirit I can't help but wonder why James White devotes his obvious talent for words and rhetoric to destroying the

Catholic Church when there are so Many other worthy causes e .g. Why doesn't he take on the abortion debate? I suppose he is so convinced the

Catholic Church is of the devil He feels constrained to expose it But many respected and beloved Protestants including

Billy Graham and family and Chuck Colson endorsed the Catholic Church as a true Christian Church It's weird that James White goes against the mainstream of Protestant thought

I think he is very vindictive and full of hate and again This is not Christianity now the irony was

Thankfully coaches around there and coach. You know very kindly says would you like to maybe um back that up with something?

other than just you know your words and and then they fall apart because they can't and Later on cat said in a later message.

I have read just one piece written by James White It made me cry

I have never visited the man's website again and don't plan to if you want to try to find the piece go ahead

So here's the person read one thing and I know what it was It was the it was the fictional dialogue.

I did on sola scriptura and folks you will find that kind of stuff

All over the Catholic answers website Tim Staples does it all the time? I've done two or three things like that, but here's a person

I've either written co -authored or contributed a minimum of one chapter to 23 different books and Our website the blog has is huge now if you print out all the stuff

I've written all this stuff and this person has read one thing and says

James what is arrogant, and I'm loving and Why doesn't he take on the abortion debate you know?

You can ask the pastors have made the churches I go to who gave them their little pro -life feet that they carry around and distribute to people and And how many times

I actually have addressed that but here's a person who's read one thing and have come to all these Conclusions, and this is what

I find the Catholic answers website the the forums all the time Someone just completely speaking out of pure ignorance of History or who

I am and what I do anything like that, but I'm arrogant and unloving Why because I disagree with their viewpoint

No, well, I wasn't was he I guess it is a worthy cause to destroying the Catholic Church at least

I don't think it's what the person meant, but that's they said and You know I go against the mainstream of Protestant thought not historic

Protestant thought have you read the Westminster Confession of Faith recently But I'm very vindictive and full of hate well

You know personally I think that saying these things about someone you know nothing about that's vindictive and hateful

At least when I talk about the Roman Catholic Church I actually you know maybe take the time to you know learn something about it and and you know document stuff so anyways

August 23rd 650 a .m.. Hey, there's coach now. Just popped in the channel. Hope he's hope he's listening and Here we've got

Apollo Geo 100 a senior member of the board The not the board not our board the board that I'm talking about here

The point of religious debate is to get I think it should be get to the truth James White debates because he likes to argue thus violating the scriptural principle of avoiding useless debates 1st

Timothy 2 14 and Titus 3 9 James White has a special animosity towards the church because his sister is a convert to Catholicism What a scandal one of evangelical prodigies is most outspoken critics of the

Roman Church and his sister crosses the Tiber How can you call people out of Rome when your own sister won't heed your call anyway?

The point was also made that James White likes to use ambush tactics on his opponents Establishing a premise and situation will be favorably viewed regardless of the debating ability of his opponent

I would love to see James White debate Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers and get Carl Keating and Bart Brewster It should be brewer to co -moderate

All right, this is what I really started chuckling because all of my books on Catholicism were written the 1990s and those were the books especially the most recent ones that my sister didn't read and so What was the reason of my animosity before then?

I Don't know it It really does expose a lot about the thinking of of these folks and and why when they listen to a debate they don't hear when their side is spinning in circles and And just putting out platitudes and things like that because they they just don't think logically

And then I love this. I love this thing about to ambush tactics. Excuse me, but Don't we like arrange these debates months ahead of time

One of the one of the debates that comes up in the in the discussion here is with with Peter Stravinskis You know

Stravinskis has two doctorates and he teaches and he's he's written all this stuff And the fact the matter is it didn't go well.

In fact, I think Phil Provoznik mentions Mentions that a little bit later on it didn't go real well for For father

Stravinskis Even though he had months to prepare He never bothered to read anything that I wrote because he didn't think he needed to Now I had everything he had ever written on the subject of Purgatory On my handheld device everything

I had purchased all his books. I had looked up everything he had written on The subject of Purgatory I had it right there and I was quoting him to himself and he did not like that He did not like that at all

But is that unloving is that is that an ambush when your your opponent has months to prepare and they don't prepare is

Is that my fault? Does that make me ambush? Is that I'm ambushing someone and if a if a professor who teaches at the time taught at two different well -known schools and Multiple doctorates a priest in the

Roman Catholic Church who is specifically he writes the Catholic answer for years if That person doesn't have the debating ability ability to debate then who does?

Who does I? you know, I Would love to see James White debate

Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers. Well, hey, you know As I've said many many times and despite the fact that mr.

Akin keeps wanting to go in other direction We've only done one debate and it was a radio debate and radio debates are right

They're normally fairly short and interestingly enough one of the key elements of his presentation.

He now says was silly His comments on John chapter 6. He's finally admitted had no merit whatsoever

And were as ridiculous as I've always said they were ridiculous even though his followers have been repeating that now

I'm not sure what they're gonna say they're just probably gonna keep looking to Rome for some new insight that they can then repeat but You know, we've said we we've invited twice.

Mr. Akin to go to a New York and my understanding is he doesn't like to You know fly and so we've you know many times we've written when we did the 1999 debate with Mitchell -paquin

San Diego we had first contacted Catholic answers. We've opened the opportunity many many times and so we'll see if anything ever comes of it, but Anyhow, so there's a polygia 100 with a a little bit time challenge time line challenged comment there

Then Phil Phil provides thing, you know The guy just doesn't get it. Most these people don't get it

The the conversation eventually devolves down to sola scriptura as it always does and He makes comment here.

He says white has admitted since at least 1997 the soul script is scriptura is not taught by Jesus or his

Apostles. It's a later development church history Hello, Phil. How many times does this have to be explained to you?

I've seen people explain this to him and he can't get it or doesn't want to get it one of the two I have admitted absolutely positively nothing

I have said that sola scriptura require requires the scriptura to exist and so obviously during periods of inscription the concept of what is

Revelation is changing at that very point. Hello What's so difficult to understand about that?

We they we don't live in a time period where that's taking place therefore

Wow And then later on in the 8th, that was the number 6 the 8th one is

Where as the comments about Stravinsky's he says actually white did debate one of these minds father Peter Stravinsky's on purgatory in 2001

I believe father Peter did not do very well since you need to be able to proof text in these debates and be quite familiar

With the other guys proof text. In other words, you need to be able to speak the fundamentalist language There is one point in the debate where father

Peter wasn't familiar with one of white's proof text Or maybe it was a question from the audience. I forget I think it was first Peter chapter 1 about born -again and the debate went downhill from there and got a little ugly

Actually, all it was was Stravinsky's miss cited the Bible he said

Peter said something and it was a compilation of two different statements and one of them was even from Peter and So I simply asked him for the text and he got angry that I dared asked him ask him for the text

That's all it was So It's it's it's sort of funny

Anyhow, he wants to have R .C. Sproul and John MacArthur and people like that on that So he thinks that would be more exciting in other words have we need to have our best minds

But then we need to have people from the other side that actually don't work specifically in Roman Catholicism. Hmm. I Think what the reason for that is that's that's odd.

Anyway dropping down. Let's see coach got involved August 25th here and You know,

I again really appreciate his his efforts there and he started setting a few things straight and then

Walter in number 13 and For those of you looking at this is non -christian religions second page of them under James white debate number 13

It says I am NOT going to make any arguments here probably wouldn't convince anyone anyway

But it was because of a debate that I read between James and a Catholic apologist Can't remember who for sure that I became a

Catholic and I know that I made the right choice The church did not die for 1 ,500 years the truth set you free.

I have nothing against James white after all he capitalized Led me to the truth now a couple things here

Isn't it ironic that you wouldn't remember who the other guy was? Secondly, there's very few of the debates have actually been transcribed

I've always thought that would be an interesting thing to do, but it's very tedious and you've got two I think two very old debates from the early 1990s that exists someplace and Given that I don't believe the church did die for 1 ,500 years

It truly makes you wonder when you see these these these testimonies I was converted because of what you said and then what you said you never actually did say

I've seen that a lot That happens a lot, but the main guy

I want to get to is this G a CC Greg a CC That's probably not his name.

He signs his emails Greg I sent a message to him through someone who can actually still post on the

Catholic answers forums and And Invite him to call in because of all the people the the vitriol level is definitely the highest

In this Greg a CC's materials, and we've he's even informed us that he and somebody else is working on a book to expose me

Come out next year, and I'm really looking forward to that He responds to coach on August 2nd and says

James White is not an honest debater and if you want I can give you instances of this now what eventually will come out of this if you just read all of them and coaches responses and stuff what he means by that is

I disagree with James White and evidently the the the mindset for a lot of Roman Catholics is since Rome is true if You disagree with Rome and especially if you present a good arguments grow against Rome it must be because you are dishonest that that must be the the the whole issue here and The coach will keep saying okay now you said here's the things that you've accused him of let's try

You know let's try to actually look at the subject and find out if you can actually substantiate that argument and When they try to do so they always end up wandering off someplace, and you have to go excuse me

But I thought you said that he's hate filled and arrogance and all this and what you're saying is he?

disagrees with you and Isn't that's not the same thing is it and no actually it's not so Greg continues on for now.

I'll let you know that I now here I I Love this stuff for now.

I will let you know that I have asked white several questions on ailment org And he has not responded them why because he's not as smart as he thinks and he is a hypocrite in his beliefs

I've never seen anything that this guy has ever sent we get hundreds of emails and We ship them off to volunteers

And you know what the volunteers have to go through them and go I can get to this one Might be able help this one and and you know what especially when you get stuff that has this kind of attitude in it

It's not gonna get a response. It's a waste of time but I've I Just love yeah, this is the kind of thinking

I've sent many letters to President Bush, and he's stupid because he can't respond to me

As if I'm sitting here reading he's going oh, oh wow I can't respond to this.

I'm a hypocrite Never heard of any of this stuff good grief people come on I Mean seriously do people really think that I'm just sitting around You know just waiting for the next 58 emails to pop in I?

Mean I've actually gotten what about 4 ,000 emails that are act they were actually actually was it

It's just right at 4 ,000 emails that were actually meant for me I've gotten I think what over 12 ,000 spam the same period of time since February Now obviously those are not all personal emails.

They're you know lists that you're subscribed to and things like that, but I've sent out Like 2 ,000 in response, so I do spend a lot of time doing that, but that's not through the website primarily

I mean the people who look at that stuff look at that and You know sometimes.

We'll say hey, here's something you really do need to Respond to here's something from someone.

It sounds like there's a real need here It'll get forwarded to me, and then even then I have to make a decision there are times

You know once the inbox gets over a hundred and it's staying there and especially when

I'm traveling I'm traveling three out of the four and a half weeks in this month. I'm not even around Between now and the debate and then over the next 39 days.

I speak 35 times How's that okay? So I don't get to everything so on the basis of that.

I'm dishonest, and I'm hypocrite And I'm not as smart as I think well. You know what? Maybe that's true, and I don't think

I'm overly smart so that would make me pretty dull. No two ways about it, but You read this stuff, and you just go wow

It does make you wonder you know Just what these people hear when you actually

Are speaking because it's it's clear there. They have no interest in following your logic

They have no interest in following your arguments. They've already decided your mean terrible nasty horrible, man. They know nothing about you at all they know nothing about your personal life they know nothing at all and But they've just they've they come their conclusions and and judge there

He continues on for instance among many note that he will never publicly denounce Lutherans Even though he believes the doctrine of the real presence is heretical hello

Greg could could we define real presence here are we talking transubstantiation here? I am

NOT a Lutheran okay But are you saying that I need to start a ministry to Lutherans before I'd not be a hypocrite anymore is that the idea?

Are you aware as different views amongst Lutherans as to the view of the sacraments and things like that and there's?

Conservatives and liberals and all sorts stuff like that hello It's transubstantiation, it's heretical you know

Is this another situation where you only listen to a couple things and not everything else that infant baptism is heretical well

You know what hello? There's more than one view of infant baptism to Greg and which one are you talking about?

And that baptism regeneration is radical. Okay. We got one. I like that one, and I've spoken out on that I spoke in fact

Debating someone on the subject of that where we might end up touching on baptismal regeneration hmm is interesting

Oh, but Catholics there are so many ways to pull the rug from under his arrogance, but white really has no humility to admit his wrongs

He needs to keep up the veneer of being correct yes It's a it's a daily struggle folks it is no longer for the sake of evangelism ie reaching out to those this message of Christ But simply so he will not not lose credibility to those many who have not yet seen through his walls of hypocrisy and arrogance

Catholic answers has done the right thing by ignoring James white well. You know they haven't They haven't ignored me

Remember they they put my sister on their program remember, and I respond to that and and they've published a number of articles specifically

About my books which I've then refuted on our website, and they don't respond to those so they don't ignore me and That's that's sort of odd that you'd say that would that make you hypocritical right there

Greg. I don't know he is a little man No, I wish He is a little man in his own little world eventually his senseless chatter will die out due to lack of interest in what he is spouting

That's interesting down below. It says last edited by Paul Stevens I'm not sure if that means that they actually had to tone it down or something

I'm not I'm not certain about that is Paul Stevens the you know

Keeping control over things there, or what I don't know. I don't know but coach responded very quickly and and Pointed out a few obvious things in the process

And then he said would you care to provide evidence James white being unloving and arrogant by providing quotes in context remember?

the mandate about bearing false witness and a cute little smiley face after that I Love that kind of stuff anyway, let's see to go down to number 17 and a dear coach

I have listened to some of Pac was debates with white some of them. I wonder which ones

He's referring to I've done five and I wonder which one father

Pacwa is not as accomplished a debater is white well actually hello Which ones did you listen to because the justification and mass debates were in January of 1991 and they were my

One two three fourth and fifth debates Pacwa had been on Ankerberg years before that Had significantly more public speaking experience than I did at that time

He goes on to say Pacwa does not evade you straw man arguments or ad hominems like white does I would like Greg to show us an ad hominem argument

He tries to do this, and I'll get to him a little bit later on he has no idea what an ad hominem argument is and Does not correctly understand that phrase, but the fact the matter is

I bet Mitch Pacwa would disagree with Greg here I bet you miss

Mitch Pac would say no in our debates Neither one of us do that and that's true Neither one of us do that's why those are good as far as scoring emotional points white wins, but in terms of truth

Pacwa I Love citations hmm if you'll be patient.

I will give you specific examples about whites dishonest rhetoric next week I'm gonna look at those in in just a little while as well

Real quickly we'll continue on this after the break, but Popping down to a message number 21 from prey of love

PR ey of love from the Philippines here Let's see

Yeah, I love this coach had made a good point about the solo scriptura thing and Prey of love says that don't you find it disturbing and this isn't that folks listen back just for a moment think back for a moment the debate with with Tim Staples on solo scriptura where we talked about Second Thessalonians 2 15 and we talked about 17 and 3 16 through 17 and and all the rest that stuff

Don't you find disturbing that white went through the entire debate on soul scripture refusing to cite passages from the Bible So the

Bible itself even just one to defend solo scriptura What does he do he runs to the writings the church fathers twisting these writings to say what he wants them to say some debater white is

Again what are these people listening to I it's just it's just I Can only remember this this all

I could think of is this one Mormon missionary who? When he was converted one of the things he said it's always stuck with me.

I remember listening to his his conversion story and He said you know now as a

Christian. I look back at the missionary Bible that I had the Bible that I carried as a more a missionary and I said he said

I read through that and I now look back at pastors like in John 5 and I marked stuff, and he says

I look at that and I I did not mark any of The passages that were really relevant to what

I was believing at that time. I had these massive glasses on that filtered out the truth

I just couldn't see this stuff, and I guess that's I guess that's what happens here

You only hear what you want to hear. I'll never forget it the last debate. You know so they're not talking about the last staples debate

Which st. Joseph's does not even offer Which took place in the very same hall isn't that interesting, but I remember there was a guy who used to work at CRI who had converted to Catholicism and He was attending the debate

But what he'd do is he'd come in while Staples was speaking and as soon as I'd get up he'd leave Wouldn't even listen to what

I was saying and then at the end of the debate told someone well of course Tim Staples won That's the kind of thing

I see on these boards is that kind of thought People who would actually listen to a debate and listen only to their side and then go we definitely won

We definitely won well. I'm gonna pick up with number 37 a note from Chimakuni or whatever that is, but we need to take a break and We're also gonna listen to a little bit of Harold camping a little bit later on so we'll be right back right after this

Dad It's all Righteousness, you know

And I'm an adventure At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself

It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified

But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the

Reformers the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself

Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue

Justification the heart of the gospel with pastor and co -author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith

David King the president of the Southern Baptist Conventions founders conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers

Eric Svensson The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you

Philip Johnson Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author.

Dr. James White join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m

Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the

King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin

.org Convictions once held and died for among Bible -believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent

Auburn Avenue movement Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error

Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the new covenant our

Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ? Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st

Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a omin org. That's www .aomin

.org Halfway through it just discovered see when

I'm in channel and people send you a private message most of time what Merck does is it opens up a window

I That bugs me to death especially when I'm working on other stuff and and it throws you off as a so normally

I have them appear in channel But I that means I can't get private messages when I'm not here because it just scrolls by So I went ahead and put it back to where it opens up a window well, the problem is that's how

I see what our callers are and since I had the the Browser window up and I was reading this stuff that was behind the browser window

So I didn't see that we had had a caller online and that's why I haven't mentioned anything about it

But for some reason it just popped up During the break. I'm not quite sure why so before we go back to Catholic answers there

We'll go ahead and talk with Tim in South Carolina. Hi, Tim Hey, how are you?

I'm great Well, I was going to ask you something in regards to regeneration I know you're you're on the long things and I was going to tie it with something else, but We're reading with in Jeremiah 18 and The he he has his prayer worries.

That's the Lord not to make atonement for their iniquities and I'm wondering What would

How would you use that or would you use that in a response to? People who who would not believe in a particular redemption what passage you're referring to Believe it's

Jeremiah 18. It's down near the end Jeremiah 18 down near the end

That ain't gonna help me out a whole lot because that that means I'd have to read all Jeremiah 18, so Do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight right

And I think you said something about making atonement for them or their iniquities yet Your Lord know all their deadly designs against me do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight

But may they be overthrown before you deal with them in the time of your anger

Right. That's all I see there. Um, I Would I would have to go back and and read the

Read the Context they have dug a pit for me. This is Jeremiah talking about, you know, remember how

I stood Before you to speak good on their behalf. So as to turn away your wrath from them Therefore give their children over to famine delivering up for the power of the sword

But their wives become childless and widowed that their men also be smitten to death their young men struck down with a sword in battle

May not cry be heard in there from their houses when you suddenly bring raiders upon them for they have dug a pit to capture

Me and hidden snares my feet yet Your Lord know all their deadly designs against me do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight

But may they be overthrown before you deal with them and you're in the time of your anger So this is this is the prophets request

For God this is an imprecate this is an imprecatory prayer similar to the imprecatory Psalms and so I I wouldn't the case for for Particular redemption is found in the purpose of the

Atonement and the specific passages that didactically teach What the purpose of the Atonement was and hence what the extent of the

Atonement is I I really? Try to avoid the utilization of Well if this says this then it might mean this and we can make an application here

I since I've yet to find anyone who can provide a meaningful exegetical response to the materials from the

From Hebrews and from Ephesians and things like that on that subject then I find no reason to look for other arguments beyond that and So I I don't know that that I would to go to a passage like this

To try to make any connection. It's it's obviously up to God In regards to the exercise of forgiveness these were people who were going to the temple

Jeremiah stood before the crowds as they were going to the temple and so on so forth so you know

I That could be part of what he's thinking there is that they may be offering sacrifices

But don't accept their sacrifices because the sacrifices are being offered from a heart. That's that's you know very very dark

Right and now would we say that? Believers are to engage in imprecatory prayers today or is that well,

I think there's a you know a Reality that we are to pray that God's the

God's justice will be done And things like that. I think that it's far too easy for us to to slip into a mindset

Where we're you know calling wrath down upon folks when right you know I suppose. I suppose the only person that really could

Pray that kind of prayer is a person who starts off recognizing the reality of their own sin and and things like that and and if You recognize the reality of God's wrath on yourself, then

I suppose you could maybe worry about the wrath on somebody else But I've got too much to worry about in that department myself, so you know we certainly pray that God will

Silence false teachers, and and you know issues like that sure Okay, okay, all right

All right, let's For those of you that getting private messages from folks who want to chat, and I'm a tad bit on the busy side right now evidently not looking at the topic up there

I'm going back to message number 37 on the Catholic answers forum

James what is a professional debater and his ego is well fed by his debates?

Just love these are people have no idea who I'm the world am He could be debating numerous positions, and he would still be excellent at doing so I want that that one

I found it particularly offensive, and here's why again someone doesn't know me you know just a little little more than slander and rumor -mongering, but That is not true

That is simply not true first of all many people already know the fact there are certain debates I will not debate because if it is not something

I'm passionate about if it's not something that I'm very convinced is is important Then I don't

I don't debate it. I'm not going to invest my time in that I don't do debates the sake of doing debates that is that is a falsehood

It's untrue, and if Chimakuni whoever that is would like to call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

To try to back up this statement. You're welcome to do so But that's not going to happen I Cannot debate numerous positions and be excellent at doing so that's why you know people said well

You'd be a great attorney if I was a defense attorney I would have to really believe the person

I was defending was innocent I could never defend a guilty person, and if I was a prosecutor

I would have to really believe in what I was prosecuting So that is a false statement.

It's just not true The message continues those of you who have written long pieces and short about James White and his and his intentions

Will you please join me in praying for his conversion? Well, you know like I said I always find that one odd because I'm the

Calvinist My god can change somebody else's heart if you're on that side of things you

Sorry so in a channel just said that's why dr. White shies away from the taste great less filling debate Yes that that and numerous others.

You've never seen me debating eschatology either Have you yeah, and you're not gonna get I can see it happening James White loves

God in a mighty way That's nice, and he sincerely believes his way is correct Well, that's even better that does not mean that God cannot use us to help

James and his conversion to Rome Since we cannot change James only ourselves. Let us pray for him and see what

God will do well You're gonna be praying for a long time because that Ain't gonna be happening because I happen to love the gospel and Rome doesn't have it and therefore

I can't I can't convert I tell you what I'm gonna. Do I want to get into Greg's stuff here

Because for example Finally on August 2nd Greg Assisi Posted he said that's promised.

Here's a short list of examples of whites dishonest rhetoric listen to the first one ad hominem

Here's what he thinks ad hominem is White compares the Bishop of Rome with the prophet of the Mormon Church most not all

Christians look upon Mormonism as a cult Not even worthy the name Christians So the purpose of the analogy is certainly deprecating especially while lacking justification for the analogy stop right there

That is not ad hominem argumentation. Would people please learn before they use technical debating terms what it means?

Okay, that is not ad hominem and in the context in which I have made that that is in regards to ultimate

Authorities who have interpretational control over scripture. It is not only an accurate

Identification it was perfectly valid in the context in which I used it. Why do

I bother? I really do wonder why do I bother? When people will call in and they'll get all over me for not using the term cult of Rome and I'll make

Differentiation or I will say well, you know Rome is different than Mormonism in this area in this area This is what good does it do me since these people never seem to hear that part?

They know I I take it from the the radicals on the right because I try to be accurate and then these folks don't even

Care they don't even care that I try Why do I bother I don't know White bases his opinion on the claim of authority to speak for the entire church the

Pope the Catholic Church prophet revelator of the Mormon Church white sees no difference between the two claims the white would have an impossible time trying to find the kind of claim to historical

Continuity for LDS authority and doctrine that the Catholic Church can claim for itself. No, wait a minute. That is a completely completely

Invalid argument keep your eye on the ball How is that ad hominem

Now he's saying well the Catholic Claim for historical continuity is better than the

Mormon claim. How does that substantiate ad hominem? It doesn't and I wouldn't argue for a second that that's not true

But that's not the point and it's irrelevant to the point I was making in regards to epistemology and having an infallible interpreter over the text of Scripture So so the very first example demonstrates that that Greg has no concept and if this guy's writing a book on this

I'm really wondering who's going to be publishing this, you know I mean a real publisher is going to have an editor's could go excuse me

But your arguments are really bad here, even if we are on the same side Your arguments are really bad notice that it says then he says

But the Mormon prophet revelator has never claimed infallibility but direct revelation from God hello

Excuse me think through that one for just a second Wow just amazing so as I I think it would be best to sort of Go Look at this stuff if it's still on the board next time around because we've got just enough time left to to cover what

I want to cover from Harold camping here real quick Harold is we're gonna make a little transition here, but only a slightly little transition here

I've been listening to Harold camping again. It's not because I don't know I just happened to stumble on him because he's on 88 9 here and I was plugging little thing in to play my mp3 player at 88 1 and it went up to 88 9 because I hit scan, you know and There there was

Harold sonorous tones And I must admit that I would probably have a different listening audience if I did my entire

Program like this it is true that once in a while I tend to get a little passionate about what is being said and Harold never does and So if you like this kind of thing

Then I would imagine that you would probably like Harold camping more than me

Because he is always very very consistent That's just not how

I work. So I want you to hear this guy called in and he was really unhappy and Camping can tell that and so right

I want you to hear the end of this Call how he gets rid of him and then listen to the next caller because you want to hear what a camping night sounds like Then then here you go

So this is for some reason rather low Ye of the of the volume things you may have to crank this a little bit to get it to work

And so yes, we will get callers like our present caller who are very very upset

But If I were coming with a dream or a vision, oh, well, then you could quickly

Correctly label me as a false prophet But when I am simply saying there we have this evidence

We have that evidence all from the scripture and that according to our present understanding

It looks like the year 2011 is a light the most likely candidate for the end of the world.

Then we have no We are not being unfaithful to the Word of God Yeah, I'm gonna stop him right there

This is his new excuse since I don't claim visions and dreams you can't make me a false prophet

That means that Jehovah's Witnesses did not falsely prophesy 1874 1914 1915 1918 1925 and 1974

Right by his argumentation Yes in any way and if our present caller or anybody else can show from the

Bible All right. All right. Well, you you have a major point you've made you by which and we're really reach our next caller the the we we

The fact is that that we don't know the day or the hour I make no claim to know the day or the hour but I also know the by speaks very very precisely and And it does not say we cannot know the year or the century or the decade and we do know of other judgments that where God did give very very

Specific time. So thank you so much for calling. Shall we go to our next caller, please?

Good evening Welcome to open forum How you doing brother captain, yes

I can make a comment about 2011 and uh before anybody else calls in about 2011 they ought to read

Ezekiel 33 and see that, you know We are watchmen every Christian every true believer is a watchman if we find something the

Bible we ought to teach about it Because Jesus coming back has come back as a judge And any true believer who claims to be a true believer if this offends them then they ought to examine theirself and Look and see that.

Hey, maybe I'm too attached to this world. Maybe I'm you know getting too attached to the sin in this world and They ought to study the

Bible and see that. Hey, you know, they ought to be rejoicing that Jesus was coming That'd be the end of our suffering in this world

You know, although if anyone is not certain of their relationship with Christ It is fearful to think that Yeah, it's only a few years away because when

Judgment Day comes it is super terrible Is super terrible?

There's no more There's no more salvation. It means eternal damnation

I like your emphasis on the fact that that You quoted from Ezekiel mentioned

Ezekiel 33 and if we're a true believer, we have no option if we learn something from the

Bible and We are being faithful as possible We can tell with the scriptures then we ought to declare it.

We have no option We are watchmen as near as we can tell he has been corrected

By people over and over and over and over again that you are listening to the voice of a cult leader

Let's be very clear here. Harold camping is a cult leader This is a cult that he's forming around himself and his own insight into numerology

I I think I was gonna try to find a section Where he was he had this caller call in I think it might have been just after this where this caller calls in and says

Have you ever noticed that this is said over in in verse 6 of chapter 13 and then it's in verse 23 and if you add them up together and You know camping

Then it goes. Well, you know, I have looked at that But I I haven't been able to connect it together yet and data data data.

I mean you're listening to a cult leader here Okay His interpretation he may not say it gets it from a dream but it comes from his own fertile mind and He can't he can't be corrected there is no authority over him and that's why in in dangerous airwaves when

I address this I said look there's only one issue about Harold camping and it is the issue of Hermeneutics it is how you handle the text of Scripture and if you handle the text of Scripture So that the meaning of the author in the original context is your guide then campings position

Self -destructs, but if you're not willing to go there if you're not willing to handle the

Word of God All right, then it can go anywhere Harold camping wants to go and as the enemy is approaching we have to and the enemy is

Christ He's the enemy of all the unsaved. We have to declare it forth

But thank you also for calling and sharing and shall we go to our next call, please?

Good evening Welcome to open forum Yes That that one that one

I was going to play, but I'm not going to simply because it's a clear illustration of someone who calls in and really

I'm sorry, but the lady really doesn't know much and so she looks at this guy as if he is a

Bible teacher and You know the Bible tells us that those who teach will receive the stricter condemnation the stricter judgment

And there's a reason for that and man. I would not want to be Harold camping When when in a in a relatively short period of time he's not the youngest man the planet

He stands before God and has to answer for his teaching

Not only he says a little bit later on in this this very program that the majority of true believers

Have already fled the local congregations the Holy Spirit is not in the local congregations of Christ any longer the true believers have fled and think about this relative to the total number of people how many people follow

Harold camping a very very very small number and So the number of true believers left in this world is

Microscopic from his perspective, and how is it determined that you're a true believer that you believe him?

Now of course he will hide that under a well of course I'm just teaching what the Bible teaches, and we don't teach anything other than what's in the

Bible and no, you teach what's in your head and You claim that the

Bible is teaching that when the when you even utilize verse numerate numerate numbers

Numerations in your in your teaching as if somehow this stuff that was invented a

Millennia and a half after the time of Christ is Somehow elephant.

I mean it is just it's so sad to hear people and please Make sure you keep something in mind this guy will talk about election and people say well.

He's sort of You know Calvinistic No, not really if you really dig into what he's saying yeah

He has a a Calvinistic background and and once while it sounds like that, but folks.

Let's let's realize something Part of being Calvinistic is is handling the

Word of God, or right? That's the basis of the doctrines of grace as I've said many times You will never believe the doctrines of grace if you do not have the highest view of Scripture You'll never believe an election and predestination if you don't believe in such things as the inspiration and inerrancy

Of the text you're not gonna do it. There's no reason to do it You you always once you abandon that high view of Scripture Then you have it's a vacuum stuff's got to come flying in there

And it's gonna be tradition and things like that and if you say that you believe this stuff because it's a traditional belief well, you really don't have any any leg to stand out that point and so just to have elements of soteriological statements that sound

Calvinistic Isn't enough. That's not what Calvinism is about and even then he there's a almost

I can't really off top my head think of anything that he is not twisted in some way shape or form into his own unique viewpoint

So when you hear people say oh well there you go There's what happens when you become a Calvinist you become like Harold camping or something that that's absolutely positively

Ridiculous of course you'll get his eschatology, and that's the most mixed up messed up thing you'd ever you'd ever want to see so anyway there you have a good example of a

Of a camping night someone who is bought into what this guy is saying hook line and sinker

And he he got a caller. I'm not sure if it was in this I think it was in this program a little bit later on the guy calls him and The guy is a minister in a church and in his church is the wife of a couple and the man is a follower of camping and has left the church and it was interesting because the scripture

That they had tried to bring in this guy's divorcing his wife And what the guy had said was well look the

Bible says to love your love your wife as Christ has loved the church

But since Christ doesn't love the church anymore I don't have to love my wife anymore and Camping had

The most emotion is voice I've ever heard well. That's just not true.

That's not right because In that passage we're talking about the universal church the body of Christ made up of all believers

Down through time and so you know since he is his own ultimate authority then he can say no

No, that's a misinterpretation, which I guess then his follower if his follower is consistent would have to believe

Since he is the ultimate authority, but then again Camping's whole position destroys the idea that there is any objective meaning to the text so why can't this guy just simply say no no no

This is about the local churches and Christ doesn't love local churches he's the enemy of the local churches the

Holy Spirit has fled from those local churches and therefore This is how we should do things right

There's there's your situation there's what's There and it is sad when you hear people calling camping and saying well since there isn't any church anymore then how should we have weddings and Where's the music anyways?

How should we have funerals and ah there? It is I knew we were running out of time I just looked up today.

What's going on here, so anyways. It's sad to hear all that we are out of time folks We'll see you next Tuesday morning at 11 o 'clock our time whatever time it is we'll hopefully be here on the right time this time.

See you then god bless Been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 460 to or write us at P .o.

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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks