October 1, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic. Here is James white and.

Technical Difficulties and the Day’s Schedule

Good afternoon. Welcome. Good morning, whatever it is. It's a Friday and That's because we had the technical difficulties yesterday. That's the only way I'm going to describe it. And I'm going to leave it that but we weren't here at at 4 o 'clock or at 4 30 or 5 yesterday, so we're here now and that way all of you addicts and people who you know send us emails and and say you've got to do this that and the other thing and Where's where why isn't the link working and various other things like that?

You won't be bothering us the whole weekend by saying but there's only one Dividing lineup and I need to have two and and things like that. So anyway Yeah, it's it's good with you this afternoon morning, but it's a morning for me.

It's it's still early sort of out here. But that'll be changing what the end of the month sometime toward the end this month. Then it'll be one o 'clock Eastern Daylight Time, but it'll still be 11 o 'clock my time because we don't play with clocks out here so that's just the way it's going to be today on the program a Couple of days ago coach Who comes into our channel every once in a blue moon?

Mentioned to me that he had been rather busy with a Thread on the Catholic answers forums and I I had signed up when they first came on. I Think they know who I am now because I can't get in anymore. I mean I can read stuff but I can't email people or anything like that and I've requested the you know Password stuff.

I've tried signing up under another email address valid email address nothing zip zero nada. So I think I think they're on to me and don't want me around there so they just sort of let those requests go bye-bye, but there is a a thread under the non Catholic religions called James White debate it was started August 22nd of this year at 10 31 p .m. By a a member by the name of full of truth and.

It's.

Someone challenged told me I'm banned. Well no one bothered to tell me that and.

Anyway.

Misrepresentations on the Catholic Answers Forum

It is just absolutely fascinating the it was about the Staples debate on sola scriptura which took place at Fulton, California back about what 96 something like that and It's available on at straight gate still if straight gate still up.

I assume I haven't heard that it's not and You know you listen to that debate I Just sort of you know I'm one of those folks that just sort of figures You know if if that kind of argumentation and that kind of performance by mr. Staples is is going to impress somebody then You know I'm not the kind of person's going to reach them You know there's just certain people that You don't you know I realize I'm not cut out to reach every person that there is there's just certain folks that don't find consistency or logical argumentation to be compelling and You know I I just remember that was the debate where?

There was that the people were lining up to ask questions and Sort of got quiet for a second and someone screamed out The Eucharist and all the Catholics like You know and you're just like wow this is really strange.

You know sort of the Howard Dean stuff and.

You know.

People who think that's cool and exciting and and all just they're not gonna find me to be overly compelling. There's a it's sort of like these the political debates that was not a debate last night by the way that was a fashion show.

And a press conference squished into one and You know that's why it's not even a debate. There's no there's no give-and-take. There's no interaction. There's no there's not enough time to even make a point at all.

That's not a debate and So you know if anyone's wondering you know what do you think about those debates well when they have one let me know. Because so far they don't have them. But anyways back to this thread on the Catholic answers forum by the way if you want to find it you go this to the second page of of the topics under non-catholic religions and you'll find James White debate and I just wanted to read some of these things respond to him because It's absolutely amazing the vast majority of people do not know me.

In fact I'm gonna read one here where this this the first one is number three message number three. August 23rd 413 a .m. From cat that's the person's board name is cat. I Think James White is arrogant and unloving.

I've read several of his fictional debates, and they always set the other person up to look like a fool. This isn't Christianity. This isn't the fruit of the spirit. I can't help but wonder why James White devotes his obvious talent for words and rhetoric to destroying the Catholic Church when there are so Many other worthy causes eg. Why doesn't he take on the abortion debate?

I suppose he is so convinced the Catholic Church is of the devil. He feels constrained to expose it. But many respected and beloved Protestants including Billy Graham and family and Chuck Colson endorsed the Catholic Church as a true Christian Church.

It's weird that James White goes against the mainstream of Protestant thought. I think he is very vindictive and full of hate and again This is not Christianity. Now the irony was Thankfully coach is around there and coach.

You know very kindly says would you like to maybe um back that up with something? Other than just you know your words and and then they fall apart because I can't and Later on cat said in a later message.

I have read just one piece written by James White. It made me cry. I have never visited the man's website again and don't plan to if you want to try to find the piece go ahead. So so here's the person read one thing and I know what it was it was the it was the fictional dialogue I did on sola scriptura and folks you will find that kind of stuff All over the Catholic answers website Tim Staples does it all the time?

I've done two or three things like that, but here's a person I've either written co-authored or contributed a minimum of one chapter to 23 different books and Our website the blog has is huge now if you print out all the stuff.

Then I've written all this stuff and this person has read one thing and says James what is arrogant and I'm loving and Why doesn't he take on the abortion debate you know? You can ask the pastors who made the churches I go to who gave them their little pro-life feet they carry around and distribute to people and.

And how many times I actually have addressed that but here's a person who's read one thing and have come to all these Conclusions, and this is what I find the Catholic answers website the the forums all the time.

Of someone just completely speaking out of pure ignorance of History or who I am and what I do anything like that, but I'm arrogant and unloving. Why. Because I disagree with their viewpoint? You know well, I wasn't it was he.

I guess it is a worthy cause to destroying the Catholic Church at least I don't think it's what the person meant, but that's they said and You know I go against the mainstream of Protestant thought not historic Protestant thought.

Have you read the Westminster Confession of Faith recently? But I'm very vindictive and full of hate well. You know personally. I think that saying these things about someone You know nothing about that's vindictive and hateful.

At least when I talk about the Roman Catholic Church I actually you know maybe take the time to you know learn something about it and and you know document stuff so anyways August 23rd 650 a .m.. Hey, there's coach now just pop up opt-in channel hope he's hope he's listening and Here we've got a polygeo 100 a senior member of the board.

The not the board not our board the board that I'm talking about here. The point of religious debate is to get I think it should be get to the truth. James White debates because he likes to argue thus violating the scriptural principle of avoiding useless debates for a stimuli 214 inside is 3 -9.

James White has a special animosity towards the church because his sister is a convert to Catholicism. What a scandal one of evangelical Protestant is most outspoken critics of the Roman Church and his sister crosses the Tiber.

How can you call people out of Rome when your own sister won't heed your call anyway? The point was also made that James White likes to use ambush tactics on his opponents. Establishing a premise and situation will be favorably viewed regardless of the debating ability of his opponent.

I would love to see James White debate Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers and get Carl Keating and Bart Brewster. It should be Brewer to co-moderate. All right, that's what I really started chuckling because all of my books on Catholicism were written the 1990s and those were the books especially the most recent ones that my sister didn't read and so.

What was the reason of my animosity before then? I?

Don't know it.

It really does expose a lot about the thinking of of these folks and and why when they listen to a debate they don't hear when their side is spinning in circles and And just putting out platitudes and things like that because they they just don't think logically.

And then I love this. I love this thing about to ambush tactics. Excuse me, but Don't we like arrange these debates months ahead of time. One of the one of the debates that comes up in the in the discussion here is with with Peter Stravinsky's.

You know Stravinsky's has two doctorates and he teaches and he's he's written all this stuff. And the fact the matter is it didn't go well. In fact, I think Phil Provoznik mentions Mentions that a little bit later on it didn't go real well for Oh for father Stravinsky's.

Even though he had months to prepare He never bothered to read anything that I wrote because he didn't think he needed to. Now I had everything he had ever written on the subject of purgatory. On my handheld device everything.

I had purchased all his books I had looked up everything he had written on the subject of purgatory had it right there and I was quoting him to himself. And he did not like that. He did not like that at all.

But is that unloving is that is that an ambush when your your opponent has months to prepare and they don't prepare is Is that my fault? Does that make me ambush? Is that I'm ambushing someone and if a if a professor who teaches at the time taught at two different well-known schools and multiple doctorates a Catholic priest in the Roman Catholic Church, who is specifically he writes the Catholic answer for years if That person doesn't have the debating ability ability to debate then who does?

Who does I? You know, I Would love to see James White debate Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers. Well, hey, you know As I've said many many times and despite the fact that mr Akin keeps wanting to go into the direction.

We've only done one debate and it was a radio debate and radio debates. All right. They're normally fairly short and interestingly enough one of the key elements of his presentation. He now says was silly.

His comments on John chapter 6. He's finally admitted had no merit whatsoever. And we're as ridiculous as I've always said they were ridiculous, even though his followers have been repeating that now I'm not sure what they're gonna say.

They're just probably gonna keep looking to Rome for some new insight that they can then repeat but You know, we've said we we've invited twice. Mr. Akin to go to a New York and my understanding is he doesn't like to You know fly and so we've you know many times we've written when we did the 1999 debate with Mitchell Paquin San Diego, we had first contacted Catholic answers.

We've opened the opportunity many many times and so we'll see if anything ever comes of it, but Anyhow, so there's a poly Gia 100 with a a little bit time challenge time line challenged comment there.

Then Phil Phil provising, you know the guy just doesn't get it most these people don't get it the the conversation eventually devolves down to solo scriptura as it always does and He makes comment here.

He says white has admitted since at least 1997 the soul script is Scriptura is not taught by Jesus or his Apostles. It's a later development church history. Hello, Phil. How many times does this have to be explained to you?

I've seen people explain this to him and he can't get it or doesn't want to get it one of the two. Oh, I have admitted absolutely positively nothing I have said that solo scriptura require requires the scriptura to exist and so obviously during periods of inscription the concept of what is Revelation is Changing at that very point.

Hello. What's so difficult to understand about that? We did they we don't live in a time period where that's taking place therefore.

Wow.

And then later on in the eighth that was the number six the eighth one. Is where as the comments about Stravinsky's he says actually white did debate one of these minds father Peter Stravinsky's on purgatory in 2001.

I believe father Peter did not do very well since you need to be able to proof text in these debates and be quite Familiar with the other guy's proof text. In other words, you need to be able to speak the fundamentalist language.

There is one point in the debate where father Peter wasn't familiar with one of whites proof text or maybe it was a question. From the audience. I forget. I think it was first Peter chapter one about born-again.

The debate went downhill from there and got a little ugly. Actually, all it was was Stravinsky's miss cited the Bible. He said Peter said something and it was a compilation of two different statements and one of them was even from Peter and So I simply asked him for the text and he got angry that I dared asked him ask him for the text.

That's all it was.

So.

It's it's it's sort of funny. Anyhow, he wants to have R .C. Sproul and John MacArthur and people like that on that. So he thinks that would be more exciting. In other words half we need to have our best minds.

But then we need to have people from the other side that actually don't work specifically in Roman Catholicism. Hmm. I Look what the reason for that is that's that's odd anyway dropping down, let's see coach got involved August 25th here and You know, I again really appreciate his his efforts there and He started setting a few things straight and then Walter in number 13 and for those of you looking at this is Non-christian religions second page of them under James White debate number 13 it says Did it that I am NOT going to make any arguments here probably wouldn't convince anyone anyway.

But it was because of a debate that I read between James and a Catholic apologist Can't remember who for sure but I became a Catholic and I know that I made the right choice. The church did not die for 1 ,500 years the truth set you free.

I have nothing against James White after all he capitalized Led me to the truth now a couple things here. Isn't it ironic that you wouldn't remember who the other guy was? Secondly, there's very few of the debates have actually been transcribed.

I've always thought that would be an interesting thing to do. But it's very tedious and you've got two I think two very old debates From the early 1990s that exists someplace and Given that I don't believe the church did die for 1 ,500 years.

It truly makes you wonder when you see these these These testimonies I was converted because of what you said and then what you said you never actually did say I've seen that a lot. That happens a lot.

Claims About Dishonesty, Debating Style, and Catholicism

But the main guy I wanted to get to is this G a CC Greg a CC. That's probably not his name. He signs his emails Greg. I sent a message to him through someone who can actually still post on the Catholic answers forms and Invite him to call in because Of all the people the the vitriol level is definitely the highest In this Greg a CC's materials and we've he's even informed us that he and somebody else is working on a book to expose me Come out next year, and I'm really looking forward to that.

He.

Responds to coach on August 2nd and says James White is not an honest debater. And if you want I can give you instances of this now what eventually will come out of this if you just read all of them and coaches responses and stuff.

What he means by that is I disagree with James White and evidently the the mindset for a lot of Roman Catholics is since Rome is true if You disagree with Rome and especially if you present a good arguments grow against Rome it must be because you are dishonest that that must be the the the whole issue here and The coach will keep saying okay now you said here's the things that you've accused him of let's try.

You know, let's try to actually look at the The subject and find out if you can actually substantiate that argument and When they try to do so they always end up wandering off someplace, and you have to go excuse me.

But I thought you said that he's hate filled and arrogance and all this and what you're saying is he? Disagrees with you and Isn't that's not the same thing is it. And no actually it's not so Greg continues on for now.

I'll let you know that I'm not here. I Love this stuff for now. I will let you know that I have asked white several questions on ailment org. And he has not responded them why. Because he's not as smart as he thinks and he is a hypocrite in his beliefs.

I've never seen anything that this guy has ever sent. We get hundreds of emails and We ship them off to volunteers and you know what the volunteers have to go through them and go I can get to this one.

Or I might be able to help this one and and you know what especially when you get stuff. That has this kind of attitude, and it's not gonna get a response. It's a waste of time but I've I Just love yeah, this is the kind of thinking I've sent many letters to President Bush.

And he's stupid because he can't respond to me. As if I'm sitting here reading he's going oh, oh wow I can't respond to this. I'm a hypocrite. Never heard of any of this stuff good grief people come on.

I Mean seriously do people really think that I'm just sitting around. You know just waiting for the next 58 emails to pop in. I mean I've actually gotten what about 4 ,000 emails that are act they were actually actually was it.

That's just right at 4 ,000 emails that were actually meant for me. I've gotten I think what over 12 ,000 spam the same period of time since February. Now obviously those are not all personal emails. They're you know lists that you're subscribed to and things like that, but I've sent out Like 2 ,000 in response, so I do spend a lot of time doing that, but that's not through the website primarily I mean the people who look at that stuff look at that and You know sometimes.

I'll say hey. Here's something you really do need to Respond to here's something from someone. It sounds like there's a real need here. It'll get forwarded to me, and then even then I have to make a decision there are times You know once the inbox gets over a hundred, and it's staying there and especially when I'm traveling I'm traveling three out of the four and a half weeks in this month.

I'm not even around Between now and the debate and then over the next 39 days. I speak 35 times. How's that okay? So I don't get to everything so on the basis of that. I'm dishonest, and I'm hypocrite.

And I'm not as smart as I think well. You know what? Maybe that's true, and I don't think I'm overly smart so that would make me pretty dull. No two ways about it, but You read this stuff, and you just go wow.

It does make you wonder.

You know.

Just what these people here when you actually are Speaking because it's it's clear there. They have no interest in following your logic. They have no interest in following your arguments. They've already decided your mean terrible nasty horrible, man.

They know nothing about you at all. They know nothing about your personal life. They know nothing at all and. But they've just they've. They come their conclusions and and judge their. He continues on for instance among many.

Note that he will never publicly denounce Lutherans even though he believes the doctor that the real presence is heretical.

Hello.

Greg could could we define real presence here are we talking? Transmission here, I am NOT a Lutheran, okay? But are you saying that I need to start a ministry to Lutherans before I'd not be a hypocrite anymore.

Is that the idea that are you aware as different views amongst Lutherans as to? The view of the sacraments and things like that and there's conservatives and liberals and all sorts stuff like that. Hello.

It's transubstantiation. It's heretical. You know. Is this another situation where you only listen to a couple things and not everything else that infant baptism is heretical. Well. You know what hello?

There's more than one view of infant baptism to Greg and which one are you talking about? And that baptism regeneration is radical, okay, we got one. I like that one, and I've spoken out on that. I spoke in fact I'm debating someone on the subject of that where we might end up touching on baptismal regeneration.

Hmm is interesting. Oh, but Catholics. There are so many ways to pull the rug from under his arrogance, but white really has no humility to admit his wrongs. He needs to keep up the veneer of being correct.

Yes, it's a it's a daily struggle folks. It is no longer for the sake of evangelism ie reaching out to those this message of Christ. But simply so he will not not lose credibility to those many who have not yet seen through his walls of hypocrisy and arrogance.

Catholic answers has done the right thing by ignoring James white. Well, you know they haven't. They haven't ignored me. Remember they they put my sister on their program remember, and I respond to that and and they've published a number of articles specifically About my books which I've then refuted on our website, and they don't respond to those so they don't ignore me and.

That's that's sort of odd that you'd say that would that make you hypocritical there Greg. I don't know he is a little man. No, I wish I was. He is a little man in his own little world. Eventually his senseless chatter will die out due to lack of interest in what he is spouting.

That's interesting down below it says last edited by Paul Stevens. I'm not sure if that means that they actually had to tone it down or something. I'm not. I'm not certain about that is Paul Stevens the.

You know.

Keeping control over things there, or what I don't know. I don't know but coach responded very quickly and and Pointed out a few obvious things in the process. And then he said would you care to provide evidence James White being unloving and arrogant by providing quotes in context remember the mandate about bearing false witness and a cute little smiley face after that.

I Love that kind of stuff anyway. Let's see the go down to number 17 and dear coach I have listened to some of Pac was debates with white some of them. I wonder which ones He's referring to. I've done five and I wonder which one father Pacwa is not as accomplished a debater is white.

Well actually hello. Which ones did you listen to because the justification and mass debates were in January of 1991 and they were my? One two three fourth and fifth debates. Pacwa had been on Ankerberg years before that.

Had significantly more public speaking experience than I did at that time. He goes on to say Pacwa does not evade you straw man arguments or ad hominems like white does. I would like Greg to show us an ad hominem argument.

He tries to do this, and I'll get to him a little bit later on. He has no idea what an ad hominem argument is and Does not correctly understand that phrase, but the fact the matter is I bet Mitch Pacwa Would disagree with Greg here.

I bet you miss Mitch Pac would say no in our debates. Neither one of us do that, and that's true. Neither one of us do that's why those are good as far as scoring emotional points. White wins, but in terms of truth Pacwa I love citations if you will be patient.

I will give you specific examples about whites dishonest rhetoric next week I'm gonna look at those in in just a little while as well. Real quickly we'll continue on this after the break, but Popping down to a message number 21 from prey of love PR EY of love from the Philippines here.

Let's see. Yeah, I love this coach had made a good point about the soul scripture thing and Prey of love says that don't you find it disturbing and this isn't that folks listen back just for a moment think back for a moment the debate with with Tim Staples on solo scriptura where we talked about Second Thessalonians 2 15 and we talked about 17 and 3 16 through 17 and and all the rest that stuff.

Don't you find disturbing that white went through the entire debate on soul scripture refusing to cite passages from the Bible. So Bible itself even just one to defend solo scriptura. What does he do he runs to the writings the church fathers.

Twisting these writings to say what he wants them to say some debater white is. Again what are these people listening to. I it's just it's just I Can only remember this this all I could think of is this one Mormon missionary who?

When he was converted one of the things he said it's always stuck with me. I remember listening to his his conversion story and He said you know now as a Christian I I look back at the missionary Bible that I had the Bible that I carried as a more a missionary and I said he said I read through that and I now look back at pastors like in John 5 and I marked stuff, and he says I look at that and I I did not mark any of The passages that were really relevant to what I was believing at that time.

I had these massive Glasses on that filtered out the truth. I just couldn't see this stuff and I guess that's I guess that's what happens here. You only hear what you want to hear. I'll never forget at the last debate you notice.

They're not talking about the last staples debate. Which st. Joseph's does not even offer? Which took place in the very same hall isn't that interesting, but I remember there was a guy who used to work at CRI who had converted to Catholicism and He was attending the debate.

But what he'd do is he'd come in while Staples was speaking and as soon as I'd get up. He'd leave Wouldn't even listen to what I was saying and then at the end of the debate told someone well of course Tim Staples won.

That's the kind of thing I see on these boards is that kind of thought. People who would actually listen to a debate and listen only to their side and then go we definitely won. We definitely won. Well, I'm gonna pick up with number 37 a note from Chimakuni or whatever that is, but we would need to take a break and We're also gonna listen a little bit of Harold camping a little bit later on so we'll be right back right after this.

Justification, the Gospel, and the Upcoming Conference

Try to save your soul. It's all words righteousness, you know.

And.

I'm an adventure grace myself. And I was some religious place by weeping hard on your face saying prayers. Some dead saints, you know. At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation Theology is the nature of justification itself.

It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified. But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers?

The doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself. Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue.

Justification the heart of the gospel with pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith David King the president of the Southern Baptist Conventions founders conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you Philip Johnson Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author. Dr. James White.

Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error. Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the New Covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a o min org. That's www .aomin .org.

A Caller Asks About Jeremiah 18 and Particular Redemption

And we're halfway through it just discovered see when I'm in channel and people send you a private message most of the time what Merck does is it opens up a window. I That bugs me to death especially when I'm working on other stuff and and it throws you off and stuff.

So normally I have them appear in channel. But I that means I can't get private messages when I'm not here because it just scrolls by. So I went ahead and put it back to where it opens up a window. Well, the problem is that's how I see what our callers are and since I had the the Browser window up and I was reading this stuff that was behind the browser window.

So I didn't see that we had had a caller online and that's why I haven't mentioned anything about it. But for some reason it just popped up During the break. I'm not quite sure why. So before we go back to Catholic answers there We'll go ahead and talk with Tim in South Carolina.

Hi Tim.

Hey, how are you? I'm great.

Well, I was going to ask you something in regards to regeneration. I know you're we're reading with in Jeremiah 18. He has his prayer worries. That's the Lord not to make atonement for their iniquities.

And I'm wondering or would you use that in a response to? People who who would not believe in a particular redemption. What passage are you referring to? Believe it's Jeremiah 18. It's down near the end.

Jeremiah 18 down near the end. That ain't gonna help me out a whole lot cuz that that means I'd have to read all Jeremiah 18, so. Do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight.

Right. And I think you said something about making atonement for them or their iniquities yet.

You are Lord know all their deadly designs against me. Do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight. But may they be overthrown before you deal with them in the time of your anger.

Right. That's all I see there. Um, I Would I would have to go back and read the Read the Context. They have dug a pit for me. This is Jeremiah talking about, you know. Remember how I stood before you to speak good on their behalf so as to turn away your wrath from them.

Therefore give their children over to famine delivering up for the power of the sword that their wives become childless and widowed. Let their men also be smitten to death. Their young men struck down with a sword in battle.

May not cry be heard in there from their houses when you suddenly bring raiders upon them for they have dug a pit to capture Me and hidden snares my feet at your Lord and all their deadly designs against me.

Do not forgive their iniquity or blot out their sin from your sight. But may they be overthrown before you deal with them and you're in the time of your anger. So this is this is the prophets request.

For God this is an imprecate this is an imprecatory prayer similar to the imprecatory Psalms and so I I wouldn't the case for for Particular redemption is found in the purpose of the Atonement and the specific passages that didactically teach what the purpose of the Atonement was and hence what the extent of the Atonement is.

I I really try to avoid the utilization of. Well, if this says this then it might mean this we can make an application here. I since I've yet to find anyone who can provide a meaningful exegetical response to the materials from the From Hebrews and from Ephesians and things like that on that subject then I find no reason to look for other arguments beyond that and.