Two Calvinists Go Into the Multiverse

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00:00
Today, two Calvinists are going into the multiverse, and we're going to talk about why that may or may not be a good thing.
00:08
Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.
00:29
Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:31
My name is Keith Boskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I am super excited today to be joined by the Calvinist, the man, the one who actually created the film Calvinist, Les Lamphere.
00:43
Les, how are you doing today? I'm doing great.
00:46
Being called the Calvinist, that's such an honor.
00:51
Yeah, and honestly, on this show, I'm usually the Calvinist, because that's the big joke with the show, is the conversation with the Calvinist, and I'm the Calvinist.
01:00
So you being the Calvinist today, you win the prize.
01:03
Wow, man.
01:05
Well, and like I said, for those of you who, those in the audience who do not know Les, I came to know Les through his filmmaking.
01:14
He did make a film called Calvinist, and we showed it at our church, actually.
01:18
We were so excited, because we are a Reformed Baptist church, and we wanted to help people to understand what it means when we use the term Calvinist, and why that term is becoming more and more accepted and understood now, where for a long time it was, and then it wasn't, and now it is, and there was just what sort of brought it in and out of the mainstream Christian culture.
01:41
And Les, I want to ask you this question.
01:43
Can you tell me what it was that caused you to make that movie? What was the sort of the impetus? Now, I think I know, because I've seen the movie, but for those who haven't.
01:54
Well, unemployment was one of the reasons needed, but I, so I started a podcast called Reformed Podcast with a friend of mine.
02:05
We were Reformed Baptists when we started it, so, you know, I love my Reformed Baptist brothers.
02:11
Okay, stop, and I hate to interrupt you, but just so that everyone in the audience knows, I'm a Reformed Baptist, and Les is a Presbyterian, so we may have a water fight later.
02:21
We may, you know, I'll try to throw him in the pool while he tries to spray me with a squirt gun.
02:26
That's right.
02:27
Always down for a water fight.
02:29
Okay.
02:29
Um, so, so yeah, I had sort of this, this touchstone with a lot of other young Reformed people, and over my few years having a podcast and a Facebook group that went along with it, and I heard a lot of very similar stories about how people came to, how people came to Calvinism, and basically it was like seeing the shallowness in the church in general, and looking for something, and a lot of it was, you know, online because the internet was, you know, blowing up, and all this, all these new resources were available to, to people, and so I have some experience in the film industry, like Hollywood films in post-production, and I had sort of this access to this audience, and I did a Kickstarter, did a fundraiser, and they believed in it, and they backed it, so I was able to travel all over the country and interview all of my heroes.
03:32
I got to interview R.C.
03:33
Sproul in the last year of his life, and I produced a movie called Calvinist, so it's all about the resurgence of Reformed theology, and, and it, an attempt to also explain it, but in a way that's sort of approachable, and not highbrow, and all that stuff.
03:52
Awesome, and you have also worked on an additional film that is available as well.
03:56
Can you tell us just a minute about that? Sure, yeah, after Calvinist, a couple years later, I did the same process, a Kickstarter, and all that, and I made another film called Spirit and Truth, and that film is specifically about Reformed worship, so it's another kind of critique on the modern church, but specifically, you know, how do we approach God, what's, what's wrong with the smoke machine, laser lights, you know, giant band, you know, all that stuff, but not just that.
04:30
On the other side, you got the high, the high church movement, and like stained glass, and you know, you got, you got a, there's a lot of experiences that you can seek in churches, and you know, is there a right way to go about it, is sort of the question of the movie, the regulative principle, if people are familiar with that term.
04:47
Yes, absolutely.
04:49
I actually have a friend who wants to come on and debate, he's opposed to the regulative principle, so I'm hoping to have that debate on the show very soon, because I do hold to the regulative principle, and it's interesting to hear somebody who comes from the other side, who says no, they don't agree with it, because it's, it's definitely something that I think is important for people to understand.
05:08
Also, shameless plug here, since you mentioned the film about worship, our church is going to be hosting a conference in March on the theology of worship, and the whole purpose of that conference is going to be talking about why we do what we do on the Lord's day, why do we have corporate prayer, why do we have corporate preaching of the word, and reading of the word, why do we have corporate singing, and what is singing supposed to be, so I bring this up, because I'm going to encourage the church to actually watch your film as well, because I think that will be a good opportunity to pull multiple streams of education together, as we look forward to trying to learn why it is we do what we do, because I do think there are a lot of people who come into the church and don't really, they, they know they're supposed to be here, and they know that what they're doing is right, but they don't know why it's right, and they don't know why, why is it that listening to this guy talk to me for an hour from the Bible is, is valuable, outside of just learning facts and, and being encouraged, you know, why is this important, how is this, how is this, how is God using this to sanctify me, and what is the purpose? Yeah, and a lot of people, a lot of people go into, you know, megachurches and things like that, that's where they end up, and they sense that there's something not quite right about the, the worship, but they don't have any context for how to explain that, so yeah, these conversations are just always good and necessary, and they always have been throughout history, so.
06:32
Absolutely, absolutely.
06:33
Well, the reason, again, Les, that I asked you to come on today is actually was, you and I are on Facebook together, and so I get to see your posts, I'm often encouraged by what you write, and I've been a part of the online groups that you've, that you've moderated, and I appreciate that, and several weeks ago, you wrote a post about your thoughts on multiverse theories, and so with all of the new movies that are promoting the, the idea that there are multiple universes, and multiple, multiple versions of me, multiple iterations of this world, and, and, and all of these things, I wanted to talk about this, because what your post said actually intrigued me, because it, it put out the idea that this is, this is more than just Hollywood doing its thing, this is a promotion of a concept that causes us to question the very fabric of reality, and so I want to read your post, and then we're going to use that as our launching point to have a conversation, because some of what you said here is, is so clear, I want to make sure that I say it exact, and then, and, and again, for those of you who don't know what the multiverse is, go watch a Marvel movie, go watch Big Bang Theory, a lot of these shows, and movies, and even, I, I even sent you one just last night, a new movie called Bliss came out, it was an Amazon movie, and that movie Bliss was about a, how taking drugs could put you in a different universe, and, and there is a different universe, a better world, and you take the drugs, and you go into this, this better world, and it's sort of like a simulation Matrix style movie, and Matrix was really sort of what kicked all this off, but the isn't real, so let me get, let me read your original quote, I truly believe that as science brings men closer and closer to the undeniable face of their creator God, Satan's final weapon is to convince people that the world they live in simply isn't real, multiverses, simulated realities, the Matrix, hallucinogenics, this is the new narrative that will continue to be pushed on us, when the universe is clearly created, ordered, and purposeful, the only alternative is that you are a brain in a vat, and it's all an illusion, well that's a powerful quote, and I want to ask you to explain something very quickly, because I know, when I hear the term brain in a vat, I know what that means, but there are some people who don't, so can you give a quick explanation as to the brain in the vat theory, yeah, well it's the Matrix, that's the easiest way to say it, so if people are familiar with, with the concept of what the Matrix is, that you are living in a simulation, and somehow beyond the, the reality that you're experiencing every day, there is the actual you, that is being fed a stimulation somehow, you know, so you can imagine a brain in a vat with electrodes attached to it, or the Matrix, you know, he was, they were wired into the, to this construct, and the computers were simulating reality for them, so that's the idea, and there's, you know, there's a million different ways to, to imagine that concept, but yeah, the Matrix is, is easily the, the clearest, okay, touch, touch point we all have, absolutely, and do you think that there are people in the world today who believe that what we are living in is not real reality, that they're, that we're having some form of simulation thrust upon us, do you think there are people who really believe that, or is this all science fiction, well absolutely, and I know that for a fact, because I have experience with hallucinogenic drugs when I was younger, before I came to Christ, and I, I know that that post that I posted is true, because I went through a period where I basically hit the pinnacle of what these drugs could do to my mind, and I had a very bad experience that basically, like, destroyed my worldview, and left me with, with that reality, that, you know, that, that there was no, really there's no other option, and that's kind of the point of the post, is, is if you really get down to the nuts and bolts of the reality that we live in, you know, evolution, big bang, all these things, they really can't answer these questions, they simply can't, and if you're, if you're honest with that, if you come face to face with that reality, then, you know, it's, it's, you either have to say there is a creator God who is eternal, or you have to say this, this reality just isn't real, and it's some sort of hallucination.
11:30
So, yeah, I, I think a lot of people, especially people who've done hallucinogenic drugs, end up having to come to that sort of conclusion.
11:43
Sure.
11:44
I remember very specifically, and I understand it's a television show, anybody in the audience who might feel the need to comment and say it's just a television show, I get it, but I remember very specifically, there was an episode of the Big Bang Theory where one of the main characters, Leonard Hofstadter, was talking to his friend on the show, girlfriend on the show, and he was telling her that he believed that the world that we live in was essentially like a hologram, that it was the universe projecting reality onto itself, and I remember thinking, you know, this is, this show is obviously entertainment, most of it is silly, they talk about superheroes, they talk about this, they talk about that, but, but it is set in a form of reality, it's set where it's supposed to be men who are, who are, I use that term men loosely, so let me, yeah, young men who are supposed to be scientists who are at the top of their field, who are having conversations within the show about things like string theory, about things like the multiverse, and those, those things come up as if they are realities, and I can't help but to think that within the show they are promoting a narrative of reality that is, is an attempt to, to, to really push upon us the idea that what we're experiencing isn't real, and what we're experiencing is, is, is only one of multiple realities that could be, and this leads us to the situation where we, as you said, we begin to say there's only one of two options, we either have a creator who made us and has decreed all things, and we are living out his decrees, or we have a, a universe that has no meaning, and no substance, and no purpose, and we are just a, again, a, a some sort of hologram in the midst, in the midst of that.
13:44
So, one of the things that I, I responded to you on your post, and, and I wrote this, I said that the multiverse movies and shows, in my opinion, are intentioned on producing a subconscious mental narrative in the minds of people, and that, that goes along with what you're saying, and, and what I was, just to continue this for the audience, what I mean is, is, is promoting the idea among people that there are multiple yous, there are multiple me's, and we see this particularly in the, the Marvel franchise, did you happen to, to, to see any of the, the Loki series? Yeah.
14:28
Okay, and that whole idea was, there were multiple Lokis, and they were all different, one was a woman, one was an alligator, it was meant to be silly and foolish, but the idea is that there's multiple universes, and so, so this morning, when I woke up, I knew I had an interview with Les, and my interview was at 10 o'clock, well, what if I would have, what if I would have decided I'm not going to do that, I'm going to call Les up, and I'm going to cancel, and that would have taken my day into a totally different direction, and it could have been that that direction took me into my car, and that my car got into a car accident with someone else, and that changed my entire life, and so we, we begin to look at the world as, as, as a series of what ifs, and obviously none of us knows the future, but we believe that God has decreed what is going to happen, so, so what are some of the dangers that you see in this for, for the minds of people as they look at, as they look at the world as being basically unlimited opportunities of chance and change that really have no purpose, and I hope, I hope that's not a confusing question, what I'm saying is, what, do you really think this is a dangerous thing, or do you think it's just the next fad that's going to go away? Well, I don't think it's the next fad, so you, you mentioned, you know, what if I had done something different this morning, and that, that was really one of the bigger things that put me over the edge for just understanding the sovereignty of God in general, you know, obviously Reformed or Calvinist, we have a very particular understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign, meaning that he decreed literally every single, you know, moment down to the smallest minutia that you can imagine, because nothing can exist unless God decrees for it to exist, and I remember debating people when I started to understand it, and realizing like, you know, like your average Arminian sort of thinks that God's in control of the big things, but then there's the, the minutia is unimportant, but, you know, like, like you were just pointing out, there's that, you know, the, the butterfly effect is a concept that people talk about too, is any small decision you make fans out into any number of other, you know, other effects that happen to, to other things, and if God allowed anything to be random, then he couldn't control anything, because how in the world can you rein it back in after you're, you're allowing things to affect you, you know, you're a bigger plan, so I think that's, it's, it's detrimental to Christians just because if you, you're, you're stealing away the sovereignty of God, and you're not submitting to the decree of, of God in that, in that way, but I think, I think the, the thing that really stands out to me about the, the idea of it is that it just, it's, it's a way out of getting out from the, the idea that, that, that God exists at all, that God is, is, has made this world, and it's purposeful, and, and God is the, the God over it, because if, it's, it's just this alternative, so every choice that I make branches off into all these other things, and the end result of that, and this is, this is the part that, where all of these things that ultimately have to fall apart.
17:53
Multiverse can't just be some finite amount of multi-, of, of, of universes, right? At some point, you have to be honest with the fact that this becomes an infinite amount of other universes, and that, and that, you know, these Marvel movies even, even mention that, but you can't really deal with the concept of infinity, so it's like a lot, and it's mind-boggling amounts and all this stuff, but you, you know, God is, God's infinity is something that you can't wrap your mind around for, for a reason, and so you have this, this idea of all these infinite, alternate universes, but now you're dealing with infinity, and infinity is, it's, it, it, that's, it, it just simply can't be that way, because the question at the end of the day still stands glaring in your face at all times, the undeniable reality that where did it come from, and, and are you really just saying that matter, and time, and branching universes, this system that seems like it has all these arbitrary rules for how it operates, you've just made a more complex system, and you're still saying it came from nowhere, it, it simply can't be, you, you know, you, just making it more complex doesn't answer the question, that actually makes the problem even, even more difficult, and more impossible.
19:19
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, now I want to make one comment on something that you said, you talked about how God, even the small things are important, probably one of the most impressive examples of that was the late Dr.
19:39
R.C.
19:39
Sproul, who you mentioned you had the opportunity to interview, I, I, I had a few opportunities to spend some time with him, he, he lived not too far south of, of where I'm at in Jacksonville, he lived in Lake Mary, and, and there just north of Orlando, so I had an opportunity to see him several times, and, and have some good conversations, wow, and yeah, it was, it was great, it was great, and so thinking about what he said, and that is that if there were even one rogue molecule in all of the universe that was not under the command of God's sovereignty, that could be the molecule that took everything else, and turned it on, turned it on its head, that could be the one thing that made it all fall apart, and so God is either completely sovereign over all things, or he's not sovereign at all, yeah, and this brings us back to a deeper theological issue, and that is the theology of will and choice, and, and how are my choices fit within the concept of God's overarching sovereignty, and certainly we have the caricatures that are often leveled against Calvinists, that we are nothing but puppets on strings, and that God is the one who is making us do evil, and all of these things, and that's often the picture that's, that's put against us, but that's not what we represent as Calvinists, we, we represent people being able to make choices, but that those choices are within this, the, the framework of God's overall sovereignty, and one of the more recent controversies that seems to have crept into the reformed conversation is the concept of molinism, and molinism is what I have dubbed the marvel multiverse theory of God's sovereignty, so, so that's, so that's why I'm bringing that in here.
21:38
Les, before the show, we talked about the you, you have some experience, you know a little bit about molinism, could you give the audience just a short version of when I say the word molinism, what is that, and, and, and what do people who believe that believe? Sure, so well, so it, the, its origins, I think, are the most telling part of it, because basically after the Reformation, you have these brilliant reformed thinkers who weren't just brilliant, but they were incredibly biblical, and so they reformed the view, you know, Augustine was doing this before, it's not like they came up with new ideas, it's just that it was forgotten throughout the Roman Catholic, you know, history, but they were just returning to this idea that God has decreed everything that happens, all things are under God's sovereignty, and nothing happens unless God has decreed that it would happen, whatsoever comes to pass, as our confession says.
22:39
So the Roman Catholic Church literally hired a Jesuit who's a Roman Catholic, Louis de Molina is his name, I believe, and he, he came up with a solution to the reformed view of sovereignty, and he came up with this, this idea of middle knowledge, and this, this potentiality of other universe, or, you know, other realities and all these things, and it became known as Molinism, and the terrible irony is that a lot of, that, I think, if you're not a Calvinist, and you're Protestant, you, you really just don't want to think too much, too deeply about the sovereignty of God, because it gets real confusing, really fast, if you're not going to say that God is both absolutely sovereign, and humans also have true responsibility, and those two things work together, and there's, I guess there's a little bit of variation in how some people want to bring those two things together, but if you can't say that, then your alternative is to just not think about it, or to come up with some kind of philosophy, and I, I think that's why Molinism is getting popular again, because Calvinism is getting popular again, and people are really thinking about God's sovereignty, and we need, unfortunately, Protestants feel like they need an alternative, and they're, they're going to Molinism, unfortunately.
24:17
Okay, and Molin, Molinism basically postulates the idea, as I understand it, you can correct me if, if I'm, if I'm misrepresenting it, but it postulates the idea that there are, there are things that are, and there are things that can be, and then there are things that would be in any given situation, and it's that word would that really is what they, what they call the subjunctive, and that is the subjunctive would really produces the, the issue, because they would say that, that, that less is going to do the show today, obviously, because you're on the show, but if less would have done differently, let's say less called me at the last minute and said, I can't do it, I've got to go get in the car, so that could have happened, and what would have happened if that did happen, and I hope that the listener is hearing, because you start to understand why I call this the Marvel multiverse view, because it's, it's very similar to the idea of multiple universes, where what would have happened if less would have, would have decided he wasn't going to do the show today, or what would have happened, did you go to church last Sunday? Of course.
25:34
Okay, I just, it's the Lord's day, you know, but, but for a lot of people, it was, it was the day of Snoop Dogg and Dr.
25:40
Dre, so I want to make sure.
25:42
Nope, not me.
25:44
No, I think, I figured as much as Calvinist.
25:47
Yes, you're a good Calvinist, and so, so you're in church on the Lord's day, but what would have happened if you didn't go to church on the Lord's day, what would have happened if you would have stayed home, or what would have happened if you would have went to Disney World, or what would have happened, and so all of these things create an infinite, as you already said, you used the word infinite, that was good, it creates an infinite opportunity for change, and so God has decreed— I think, I think in Molinism, though, I think somehow, and once again, that's the problem, is that people, people don't want to really embrace this concept of infinity, because it really, yeah, well, I should have let you, you finish, I'll just, I'll try to make this short.
26:34
God is being presented this data, but it has to be a finite amount of data, because he's, he's basically choosing to actuate a universe based on the, the data set before him, based on given conditions, so if I did it this way, let me play out that simulation, what would that look like, and you know, there's a, do you mind if I just take over? No, please, this is what I want to know, absolutely, yeah, no, please.
27:01
I didn't mean to hijack your explanation, but I just wanted to make a point, and now I'm going off on it, but yeah, so that's the idea, you know, God sets the parameters, plays out the simulation, that's at least the way, the best way to think about what they're saying, it's, they're not necessarily saying exactly that God does it this way, but, but this is, you know, yeah, they're saying, they're saying his, his middle knowledge does that, even though he's not, he's not literally sitting there, yeah, yeah, he's aware of any potential futures, and so that means any set of, sets of data that he could, he could establish, what will the result, the resulting universe, the resulting reality that, that he would actuate, what would the result of that be, and so then it's up to you to sort of decide what's the most important thing to God, and you know, most evangelicals want to say the most important thing is the most people get saved, so that's, that's kind of the end game, we'll go Marvel again, the end game is that God would save the most amount of people, so he says, if I do it this way, how many people get saved, if I do it this way, how many people get saved, and then you end up with the one where the most people get saved, but they were still given complete free will, because that's the most important thing, especially to Roman Catholics and Armenians after them, Roman Catholicism 2.0 in a lot of ways, and so that's, that's the system, and so now God is sovereign, because he is, the universe that was actuated, every single detail of it is what he wanted technically, but it's, it's sort of, it's him settling on this, this set of conditions, because it gives him the best possible, so it's really God's sovereignty versus human, human freedom, and because human freedom must be upheld in the system, he is now constrained to a less than, a less than ideal, he can't, he can't just make it however he wants, because people still have to have freedom, and then some people need to get saved, whereas we would say the reason people don't get saved is because God simply chose not to save them, and that's, that's God's prerogative, and we, we uphold God's sovereign prerogative to, to choose those things, and here's, back to like, pop culture media sort of stuff, like, I don't, I don't know how you feel about this, but I'm, when I watch, especially time travel movies, anytime a time travel movie, you know, you go back in time, and you change an event, and then now the future is different, and that's really where the, the, the, the, the plot hole that comes out of that is, is what makes multiverse theory necessary, because now you've changed the past, but that hit, that future did exist differently, so now there's two different futures, and you get a fork, but, yeah, back, back, back to the future, back to the future, the original back to the future, yeah, it didn't, they didn't, they didn't deal with that, right, they didn't deal with the, the fact that there was a future where, where Marty actually came from that was different than the future that he ended up changing, and there's actually a pretty crazy, if you really think through back to the future, it's pretty nuts, because there's a reality where Marty gets sent back to 1985, and Biff's in charge, right, and he, like, owns the world like Donald Trump, and, but he didn't, there's a Marty that got sent back to that 1985, but had no concept of why it was this way, because he, he's not the same Marty that went forward to 2015, got the Sports Almanac, learned all this information, and he's the one that shows up in 1985 that we follow, that knows, you know, whatever, why, why Biff's in charge, but, but there is a Marty that was sent back to that time, and had no idea why it was that way, so he was just, like, going insane without that information.
31:02
Anyway, that's, first of all, this is why we would be friends, the fact that I understood everything that you just said, but go ahead, so that's, that's one time travel, I guess you could say time travel theory that's used in movies, but, but then there's another one where, if you go back in time, and you change an event, all you're doing is establishing why the future is the way it is, and it ends up being this predestined loop, and that's every, that's, well, I guess not every, but, oh, what's his name? I just lost his name.
31:41
Dr.
31:42
Who? No.
31:44
Well, yeah, I've never watched, I never watched Dr.
31:46
Who, I don't know, I don't know.
31:47
Me either, I was taking a stab, I was taking a stab in the dark.
31:49
No, Nolan, Christopher Nolan.
31:52
Oh, okay.
31:53
Yeah, I guess, specifically Interstellar, absolutely love Interstellar, but Interstellar is the best example of, because it's, because he does, there's like a predestined loop within a predestined loop, and he's like, he's showing you the same thing over and over and over again in the movie, and I hated Interstellar when I first watched it, but then when I started to understand what he was doing, it was like, it's, it's the best, it's the best time travel movie ever made, it's absolutely fascinating, very secularist, and actually it, it basically posits that humanity made itself in some crazy way, but, and then there's another, have you ever seen Predestination? No, no.
32:34
Is that a movie? Don't, don't watch it, just because it's, it's kind of perverse, and not kind of perverse, it's very perverse in, but, but basically the whole, the whole concept of the movie is that, I shouldn't even give it away, it is mind-bogglingly predestined loop, you know, concept, but for me, whenever I watch those movies, the predestined loop is the only satisfying way to watch a time travel movie, or else you get The Avengers, and Avengers pointed out, it was at the Hulk, right, that explained in Endgame that when you time travel, it can't be like Back to the Future, because, you know, the future was the way it was, blah, blah, blah, and he pokes fun at it, and then, so they're basically saying the only way time travel can work is if there's multiverses, but the other option is a predestined, a predestined loop, and so it's like Calvinism is basically, is the, the predestination, nothing can change, it doesn't matter what you do, sort of, at least, you know, there is a timeline that can't be altered, whereas Molinism would more reflect this idea of like, no, there's a million different ways it could have gone, and those are, they're all just as, as truly potential, you know, so, sorry to go off on that tangent.
33:56
No, no, I love it, and again, this is, we, we could sit around a fire, and, you know, since you're the Reformed Pub, we could sit around a fire with a, with a couple of drinks, and, and, and talk this all out.
34:09
All right, so, getting back to when you were talking about the, the idea of, of the, the multi, the, the way that it shows itself out in movies, and, and, and we, we live in a culture that does really honor film as, as, as, as the most important medium that we have, you know, as far as, you know, everybody wants everything to be on film, even, even the stories of the Bible, everybody wants the stories of the Bible on film, which I know is, some people are, we get the, the issue of the, the, the second commandment violation in regards to films like Chosen and things like that, but people want things on film, and, and they say art imitates life, and life imitates art, and I think also art influences how we view life.
34:56
Art, art, art, you know, it, it becomes the, the teacher, so a lot of people, what they learn in school is actually less important in one sense than what they're learning from the, the, the mediums that are coming to them through television, movies, Instagram, Facebook, all of these things, this is how they're, they're digesting information, so again, as you said in the original, the original quote is that these things are, this is, it's being pushed on us, these ideas, and so people are talking about multiverse theory like it's, like it's a real thing, and then again, we've got Molinism, which is a theology, which it, and I know somebody may listen to this and say, you're not being fair, you're not representing, when you say Molinism is the multiverse theory, I understand that they only believe one universe was actuated, they don't believe in multiple actuations, but the idea, they do believe in multiple potentialities, that's a word you said, the idea is that, that all things are ultimately potential, and I know you didn't get a chance to watch this, but just last weekend, Dr.
36:02
James White debated a man named Tim Stratton, Dr.
36:07
Tim Stratton, I want to give him the credit that's due, Dr.
36:09
James White and Dr.
36:10
Tim Stratton debated on the subject of Molinism, and debated the, the comparing Molinism with Calvinism, and is Molinism biblical, and Dr.
36:21
Stratton believes certainly that it is, and he even says, you know, it's not about Molina, it's what the Bible says, and he tries to make these biblical arguments using passages that use the word would, such as when it talks about what Sodom and Gomorrah would have done had they heard the gospel, you know, Jesus talks about that when he's talking to Tyre and Sidon, you know, if Sodom and Gomorrah had heard this, you know, they would have repented, and so they use those as the arguments as to what could or would have happened, but Dr.
36:48
Stratton said that he believes that this is a necessary thing, because if we hold to the Calvinistic view that God is sovereign over all things, then we have to, we have to say then that God is the, and he, I want to say use the word author, but I could be wrong, again, I've only listened to it one time, but basically God is the author or the cause of the most horrendous acts of history, such as child rape, and that's always the one everybody goes to is, you know, a child is raped and God is the cause, so you as a theologian, you as a person who has talked about this and had conversations about this a lot, how do you deal with that subject, and for those who don't know, the bigger concept here is what's called theodicy, or justifying God's righteousness in view of evil in the world, how do you deal with that when somebody comes and says, well, if Calvinism is true, then God is the one responsible for child rape or something like that? What's your, what is, or do you, have you ever had someone approach you with a question like that? Yeah, so, well, first of all, the, I didn't watch, like you say, I didn't watch that debate, but I mean, as you were saying, like the, the, the sort of down-to-brass-tacks explanation of why, you know, Molinism must be true from Stratton's own words, it's just so incredibly obvious that that, that's what he would say, because that's literally why Molinism exists, because of that question.
38:21
There, there is no other reason, and that's, that's the reason everybody rejects the Reformed view of, of God being sovereign, because, you know, the, you can't, well, I mean, I think the actual reason is because we have to be sovereign over our own lives, and we can't have somebody over us.
38:41
We, we kick against that every opportunity we get, even as Christians.
38:47
But yeah, to, to answer the question, it was Bonson in Always Ready that I think gave me the best clarity, at least, like, early on, and just gave me the, sort of, the wording.
39:05
But, you know, we look, we look at Scripture.
39:09
A great example is in Genesis, in, with Joseph, you know, Joseph is betrayed by his brothers, thrown into a pit, sold into slavery, lied about by a woman who accuses him of trying to rape her, thrown into, into prison, and eventually, at the end of his life, after all of this undue suffering, unjust suffering, his entire life, he, he, he could have been, and if it was me, I would have been asking, God, what are you, like, why, why are you treating me this way? It's so unfair.
39:45
The whole thing is so unfair.
39:47
And then at the end of the story, at the end of the book of Genesis, the, almost the, the, the summary of the book is his brothers come to him, they're cowering because their father's dead, and they're, they're pleading for him to be merciful to them, because they treated him so badly all those years ago.
40:08
And Joseph responds, am I in the place of God? He says, what you meant for evil, God meant for good.
40:15
So, there is evil in the world, and the people who perpetrate that evil, they, they had evil in their hearts, and they will be held accountable for their evil.
40:25
But God has a good purpose in those same actions that we call evil, because evil men perpetrated them, and evil came out of them.
40:34
But God is doing something good through it.
40:37
And that's actually true of everything that happens in history.
40:41
And you, you know, you get into gory details of it, and yeah, you can, you can make it sound very, very bad, and it is very, very bad.
40:47
Evil is really evil.
40:50
But if we truly understand that, for example, the father had his son nailed to the cross by wicked men, the only innocent person who's ever lived was treated so unfairly and murdered.
41:09
God decreed for that to take place, and he did it for the salvation of, of all of his people, and all, you know, throughout history.
41:17
And we will worship God for all of eternity, because of this amazing sacrifice that Christ, that Christ made on our behalf.
41:26
But that's something that God decreed, and it was an evil act in, in the sense that the people who carried it out were perpetrating evil.
41:35
So the way Bonson phrases it is that there is a morally sufficient reason for all the evil that takes place in the world.
41:46
Morally sufficient.
41:48
So that means that God has a good reason.
41:51
And that's something that we're not going to really understand until, we might not fully understand ever, because we will always be learning, even in eternity.
41:59
But we will have a sufficient, a sufficient understanding of God's good intentions behind even the most evil things that happen here and now on this earth.
42:11
And that, that's really what gives Christians the ability to suffer well.
42:15
If, if I'm always questioning God's goodness in, or if even allowing, or even saying this Molinist God actuated this universe, and I'm going through horrible suffering, well, the whole purpose of Molinism was to say, God didn't want you to suffer in that way.
42:33
So it, but he had to allow it because there was a greater end at the end that, you know, so you had to go through this, basically for the, the wellbeing of whatever, the other people who are going to get saved or whatever.
42:46
But God didn't want it.
42:49
But if God didn't, you know, so as a, as a Calvinist, we can, we can actually say there's a sense in which God did want this to happen.
42:56
And he wants me to learn something from this.
42:58
He wants me to look, to grow from this.
43:00
He wants me to be sanctified from this.
43:02
And that's, that's only possible if you can actually say God ordained this for my life.
43:08
That's right.
43:09
And as Dr.
43:10
James White has often said, outside of Calvinism, you find yourself with purposeless evil, but in our understanding, there is nothing that happens that happens without purpose.
43:24
And therefore, when I minister to a person who is going through a time where they have experienced the, the terror at the hands of evil men, or they have experienced a tragedy, I can look to them and I can say, we may not know what the purpose is, but God does.
43:40
And that this did not happen apart from his divine decree that he, you know, I may not say it that way when I'm facing the person that lost a child or something, but, but I can still look to them and say, God has caused all things to work together for good.
43:54
Yeah.
43:54
And you can even, you know, you can even encourage them to cry out to God and say, why God? And they can weep to him.
44:01
They can, there's a, there's a sense in which even in scripture, we were encouraged to almost criticize God to his face as we're praying to him as his children.
44:10
Why would you do this? Why would you allow this to happen? You know, that's what, that's what David's saying when he says, why be forsaken me? That's what he meant, right? He's actually, it's like, it's like, my circumstances are so terrible.
44:22
Why, why would you do this to me? And, and if, if you have any other view than God's absolute sovereignty over that situation, the picture that you would get of God answering that is like, eh, sorry, I kind of had to, I don't know.
44:37
It's like, eh, I know it sucks and I didn't want to do this to you or, you know, let it happen to you or whatever.
44:43
It's, but no, we, we can actually have a, we can have them cry out to the Lord in those times of, of absolute suffering and he can comfort them and say, you know, this, this was necessary.
44:54
It's for your good.
44:55
It's for my glory.
44:56
And that's, that's the biblical answer.
44:59
So, you know, why not have a theology that lines up with the biblical answer to that question? Absolutely.
45:06
Absolutely.
45:07
Now I want to, again, I know you didn't listen to the debate and I want to ask you one other question based on something that Tim Stratton said.
45:13
I think, I think that you'll be able to answer this well, even though you didn't get to hear it.
45:16
He made the argument through the debate that he is still reformed, even though he holds to the Molinism view and you as the, you as the, as the Calvinist today that you get that title, you're the Calvinist today.
45:31
What would you say to someone who says, yeah, I'm reformed.
45:34
I hold to the five points of Calvin.
45:36
Cause he did, he said, he said, I hold to every, every, every one of the five points.
45:40
I, you know, I can affirm total depravity, which again, I don't think that he does because he holds to an absolute free will, which is a, the very issue with total depravity.
45:49
Did he say that? Oh yes.
45:51
No.
45:51
He said, he said, I can, I can hold to all he is.
45:54
I believe he's a graduate of, of a reformed seminary.
46:00
Yeah.
46:01
I don't know what he said.
46:02
He said specifically that he holds to an absolute free will.
46:08
Well, he, he said that Molinism upholds the freedom of the will.
46:13
Yeah.
46:13
I mean, throughout, throughout the debate, he was, he was a libert, he used, he used the term libertarian free will that he believes in a libertarian free will.
46:20
And yet he says he's still a five point Calvinist.
46:23
So what are your, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I was going to say when I was sort of explaining Molinism, I was, I was gonna, uh, tack on the statement that that's why it would be so incredibly pathetic for a Calvinist to, uh, claim to be, uh, a Molinist.
46:46
And just, I mean, I want, I want the audience to meditate on, on that thought.
46:51
That's an awesome, it would be incredibly pathetic for a Calvinist to be a Molinist.
46:56
That will be the tagline of today's show, but go ahead.
46:59
Nice.
47:00
Well, it's, it's, it's pathetic.
47:02
Like I, you know, like I said, the, the most telling thing is the origin.
47:06
Uh, but it would be pathetic just because you're, you're abandoning the, the entire history of, you know, of your tradition.
47:15
But it's also just completely pathetic because it's, it goes against everything that we're saying.
47:21
When we say that we're a Calvinist, we're saying that God is sovereign.
47:25
We're saying that, that men are incapable in their freedom to make this choice because we're enslaved to sin, we're, you know, dead and all these things.
47:34
Um, and the whole purpose that Molinism serves is to rescue God away from being, um, responsible for the bad things that happen in the universe.
47:43
And it's, uh, giving man back his, his, his will, his freedom, his ability to, to really weigh the pros and cons of coming to Christ.
47:55
Will I make this choice? Because when, when the whole basis of Molinism is that if God puts in the right input, then a certain amount of people will what? Respond to the gospel of their own volition.
48:08
That's the whole point.
48:10
But men can't respond to the gospel of their own volition.
48:13
And if you, if you say they can, then you're not a Calvinist.
48:16
You're, you simply can't be.
48:18
Um, and you've, you've just stripped God of, of his sovereignty.
48:23
You've stripped God of being the comforter when you're suffering.
48:27
Uh, all the beautiful, uh, consistent theology that, that flows out of those five points.
48:35
Um, you've, you've cut the whole thing off at, at, at the base.
48:38
So it's, it's silly.
48:39
It is just silly to say I'm a Calvinist and also a Molinist.
48:43
You're, you're, you're not, you've, you're absolutely not.
48:47
You cannot be a Calvinist and you, you can have the Molinism thing, but the Calvinist, I'm sorry, is taking away your Calvinist card.
48:55
That's right.
48:56
That's what we're here for.
48:57
Yeah.
48:57
You, you letting them know.
48:59
Okay.
49:00
I've got a couple of, uh, uh, as we begin to sort of maybe draw to a close, I have a couple of sort of rapid fire questions on going back to the multiverse thing, but still in the, still in the same category of, of, of this first, first thing, uh, I'm a father.
49:14
I have five children.
49:15
Do you have any children? I have four, four children.
49:19
Okay.
49:19
So you're, you're at the pro level.
49:21
We call those pro level dads.
49:22
Yeah.
49:23
I had a, I had a gentleman on, I interviewed Conley Owens.
49:27
Uh, he wrote, uh, wrote a book about money and ministry.
49:30
So I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago.
49:31
He has eight kids.
49:33
And I said, wow, that's a pro pro-level dad, pro-level dad.
49:37
So, uh, Kevin DeYoung has ten, right? Nine or ten.
49:40
Yeah.
49:41
That's awesome.
49:43
So what we're doing is we're populating the world with more Calvinists.
49:46
We're just creating Calvinists.
49:48
Or as Presbyterians would say, making disciples.
49:51
Yes, yes, yes.
49:53
The covenant family.
49:54
Physically making them.
49:56
All right.
49:56
So, uh, so a question for a dad, a Presbyterian dad, uh, what is your, what is your feeling about your children watching these multiverse movies? Now I know movies like interstellar and things like that, which would be, which would be beyond them, but, but even movies like the Marvel, like the recent Spider-Man movie, uh, which, which focused on, which was, which was very nostalgic for me.
50:17
I'll be honest.
50:18
I really liked it because it brought back Tobey Maguire, it brought back Andrew Garfield.
50:22
And it was a very interesting way that they told that story by bringing in all the different Spider-Man characters.
50:28
You're spoiling it for me.
50:29
I haven't seen it yet.
50:30
Oh, I'm sorry.
50:31
Oh my goodness.
50:33
I've, I've been on the internet enough to know, know a little bit of what happens, but I haven't seen it yet.
50:38
Okay.
50:38
All right.
50:39
Spoiler alert.
50:39
I'll go back and add that in.
50:41
I'll go back and add a line.
50:43
The next two seconds we'll have a spoiler and I apologize.
50:46
Okay.
50:46
So with that, um, I enjoyed it, but do you think that parents should, should be having these conversations with their kids? Should they be avoiding watching these films with their children to, to not, to not confuse their worldview? Cause again, I understand it.
51:02
So I'm able to see it with those eyes, but with children may not.
51:05
So what are your thoughts? Yeah.
51:09
Um, I think it, the, the judgment call is really based on, um, how well you think that they have been educated in the sense that they're able to defend their own worldview against whatever philosophy is going to be coming at them.
51:26
Um, so, you know, if they're watching anything, uh, it's going to happen.
51:32
Actually, uh, have you seen, you've seen frozen two, right? Okay.
51:38
That, that movie people, I don't think people really understand quite what's going on with, uh, it's Elsa, right? She's the, the main nice, nice queen.
51:50
Yeah.
51:52
Yeah.
51:52
She's literally like the fifth element, right? Like in the sense that she, she's literally God, like, and she's being called into this elemental thing.
52:05
And you know, the whole thing happens in the forest and all that stuff, but she's, she's returning to her Godhood.
52:10
She's actually like the creator of the entire universe.
52:14
And she's, she's discovering her, her actual purpose as an element of, of the universe.
52:20
Like she, she literally is God.
52:22
It's crazy.
52:22
Uh, we don't even, so my point of bringing that up is that like these, these philosophies are coming at them in ways that, you know, it's, it's crazy how much it's there kind of, you have to dig sometimes to, to see exactly what they're saying, but, um, so yeah, they, they always need to be prepared to confront whatever worldviews coming and, you know, good conversations.
52:46
That's why family worship is so important that, uh, you know, hopefully you can discuss these, you know, consistently talking about applying the Bible to, you know, the experiences in life, but also the movies we're watching and the books we're reading and things like that, that you can be confronting your kids with, with the scripture.
53:06
But, you know, we, we spent most of our time talking about the multiverse, but I think the, the brain in the VAT thing, I think is going to, it seems to me is, is becoming more and more popular.
53:18
Um, like the, the, the beginning of the matrix, the new matrix movie, did you see the new one? No, I haven't.
53:25
So feel free to spoil it.
53:26
So that will be, I'll feel better if you spoil that because I spoiled.
53:30
Yeah.
53:31
Well, well, the movie sucks.
53:34
I'll say that.
53:36
Yeah, it was such a disappointment, but, um, but, and I, and I thought from the first half of it, that it was going to be a very different movie because the, it was so dark, uh, the beginning of that movie, cause it's literally watching a man go insane, trying to figure out if reality is real and he's taking drugs and he's seeing a psychiatrist.
54:00
And, uh, you know, the, the plot ends up being Neo remembers the matrix because he's been sort of reinserted, but they're tricking him and they're, they're giving him like a little taste of it.
54:11
So he'll like, because I guess, you know, he's powering the matrix through whatever, really, really stupid, but the darkness of a man going insane, questioning reality.
54:21
Um, that's, that's like legitimate mental illness that people actually struggle with.
54:26
And, uh, so I, I think that answer that, that is such a good answer from Satan for the world we live in right now, that it's all a hallucination.
54:41
It's not just multiverses like that.
54:42
That's, you know, that's one thing.
54:44
Um, that's, you know, questioning the, the, the concreteness of this reality and the finality of it.
54:51
But to say this isn't even real, this is all just in your imagination.
54:56
Like that's, that's smart.
54:58
That's if, if, if, if you know that that baby in the, in the womb is a life and you can't explain that away anymore.
55:05
And you know, that the, the big bang, uh, just simply can't answer the question of the origin of all things, because what happened before the big bang, if you think about that for five seconds, it dissipates, like it's a, it's a completely ludicrous idea.
55:19
Um, so if you ever have to come face to face with that, well, Oh, it's all just a hallucination.
55:25
None of it's real.
55:27
Now, you know, what's the answer beyond that? You know, who knows, but you don't have to know anymore because you're a brain of that.
55:32
You can only have access to the senses and all the things that you're in right now.
55:36
Um, so I think that's, I think I actually think that's the much more dangerous, uh, thing to, uh, that people are being sort of exposed to and encouraged to question reality itself.
55:48
Absolutely.
55:50
What's interesting, the, the, the, the movie bliss, which I've never seen, but I've seen a, I sent you the little, uh, yeah, I watched that trailer breakdown of it.
55:58
There's literally a brain in a vat.
56:00
There's a, there's a, there's like a pool and it's got brains connected to a box and that box is simulating everything.
56:07
And it's like, it's literally what we're talking about.
56:09
So, so there's a picture of it there.
56:12
Well, another quick rapid fire question for you is the question of as a minister.
56:16
Okay.
56:16
I'm, I'm a pastor and a pastor church, small church in Jacksonville.
56:21
Uh, uh, and I don't know, I, are you, I should have asked this before.
56:26
Are you, are you an elder pastor at your church? No, I'm a churchman.
56:30
Okay.
56:31
Okay.
56:31
Um, do you think from the pew then? Cause this is why, where I think this is very helpful.
56:36
Do you think from the pew that as a pastor, that I should be, or that other pastors should really be addressing these issues and saying, we need to be on guard against these things.
56:48
And particularly not just in the movies, but even the Molinism and the things that are, that are attached to these same concepts of, of pulling us away from sound theology and putting us into this, this wrong view.
57:00
What, what level of interaction do you think we should be having, uh, at the, at the pulpit level? Are you a presuppositionalist? Yes.
57:11
Yes, sir.
57:12
Okay.
57:13
Yeah.
57:14
Uh, so I think that, uh, I don't, I don't think there's any need to like specifically point these things out as it, if they come up in sermons, if they come up in texts and like as an illustration of, you know, lies from the devil and all these things.
57:28
Um, I think that you should, you know, it's, it's always good to do that stuff.
57:33
Um, but I think the more important thing is to just really enforce a solid biblical worldview.
57:43
Um, so you can answer these things and, you know, presupp, I'm, I'm presuppositional too.
57:48
And, uh, it, it's the only, it's the only answer, you know, if, if you're, if you're truly presuppositional, if you, if that, if that light has come on and you sort of realize like, like, Oh, the impossibility of the contrary, like it's, it's, it's simply can't be any other way.
58:04
God's world is, is reflected in God's word.
58:08
Um, and so if, if you can make sure that people understand that, then that, that it covers everything because the world literally can't exist in any other way.
58:18
There's no other basis for the universe that we currently, uh, you know, find ourselves in.
58:25
Um, so yeah, that's, I think the, the more important thing is to just give people a solid understanding of why the scripture is the only answer for, uh, for reality.
58:38
Yeah.
58:39
And that goes, that, that, that sort of goes along with the old, um, uh, apologetics conversation where, and you've probably heard this example where someone talks about the way they train the treasury agents is not by showing them all the false things, but by having them study that, which is true, having them study the real bill.
59:00
And if they know what the real bill has and all of the elements of the real building, then they don't have to study all the faults because they know what the real is.
59:07
And so, yeah, I think that's, that's a good thought is focusing on, on what's true.
59:12
And not only am I a presuppositionalist, but I'm also a verse by verse pastor.
59:18
So I, I wouldn't just, I wouldn't just, I've been in Genesis for three years.
59:21
So I wouldn't just stop and say, okay, I'm going to preach on, but, but at the same time, uh, you're right.
59:28
There are times.
59:29
Yeah.
59:30
Illustrations, things like that.
59:32
All right.
59:32
Well, as we draw to a close, I'm gonna ask you a couple of quick questions.
59:35
Do you have anything that you would like to recommend to our listeners on the subject, any books, media, or anything that you can think of that might be, uh, might be helpful in this regard, other than the movie Calvinist, which everybody should watch? Yeah.
59:50
Um, hmm.
59:52
Well, I, I would recommend reading Van Til and Bonson and, uh, go back to the, the OG guys on, on apologetics and cause yeah, I, I really do think, uh, you know, even as I was typing that, that post out, even as my, myself, like I said, I've, I've had experiences that have sort of led me to think this way, this, this satanic way of, you know, questioning reality.
01:00:17
And whenever those questions sort of haunt me, um, the, the only thing that settles it is just recognizing that like, like, no, no, the scriptures actually give me a basis for the reality I find myself, myself in.
01:00:32
Um, so I think, uh, a good presuppositional understanding of, of God's word.
01:00:37
Uh, so yeah, Bonson, Van Til, that's what I would recommend.
01:00:40
Awesome.
01:00:41
Uh, now I know you have the Calvinist movie, you have the, the movie on worship.
01:00:47
Did I understand that you've got something else in the, in the, in the pipeline as well, or am I, am I incorrect on that as the, as the worships? Um, I'm not sure how much I can, uh, reveal.
01:00:57
So I, I also worked on, uh, American gospel.
01:01:00
I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with that.
01:01:01
My movies are right now available on AGTV, which is a streaming service that the American gospel guys, uh, put out.
01:01:09
And, uh, I, well, yeah, so I started working on a project.
01:01:14
I'll keep it vague with some people.
01:01:17
And the movie is about civil disobedience.
01:01:20
Oh, okay.
01:01:21
That's very important.
01:01:23
Yeah.
01:01:23
The world's the world's going a little crazy right now.
01:01:26
And, uh, we need some, need some clarity on what in the world Christians are supposed to do.
01:01:31
So that'll be exciting and probably illegal at some point.
01:01:37
Well, we'll pray that it stays legal long enough for us to be able to see it.
01:01:42
Yeah.
01:01:43
Yeah.
01:01:44
Well, Les, I want to thank you for coming on the program today.
01:01:46
I hope it was an encouragement to you.
01:01:48
I know you've been an encouragement to me and to our listeners and thank your family for us for giving us this time with you.
01:01:54
Excellent.
01:01:55
Thank you so much.
01:01:55
This was a blast.
01:01:57
Great.
01:01:57
And thank you listener for being with us today on conversations with the Calvinist.
01:02:01
Now I want to encourage you, if you have any questions on this subject, please feel free to email me at Calvinist podcast at gmail.com.
01:02:09
That's Calvinist podcast at gmail.com.
01:02:13
And again, thank you for listening to conversations with the Calvinist.
01:02:16
I'm Keith Foskey.