Apologetics Conference 2016: The Mormon Temple (Eric Johnson)

Cornerstone Church

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Well, I just wanted to say something. I said this the first hour, and I want to make sure I'm very clear on this, that what

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I am doing, what we do at Mormonism Research Ministry, what John does, we're not against the

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Mormon people. And I was using an illustration, and I want to share it with you at the back table there, the idea of Ponzi schemes and other kinds of scams.

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Are you familiar with those? You know where the number one Ponzi scheme capital of the world is?

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It's in which state? It's Utah. We're so good at these things.

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And yeah, in fact, we did some radio shows. In fact, you go to our website, mrm .org.

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I hope you go there and check that out. But on the front page, if you go down a few articles, we did some shows on that.

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And I did an article, and I listed just in the last three years some of the schemes, millions and millions of dollars.

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But I don't know if you've ever had a scam happen to you. Have you had a scam happen? I actually had one happen to me when somebody said they were going to build a room, and it was a friend of mine.

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Not a friend, but it was somebody I knew who was a friend of a friend. And he took $1 ,000, and that company, turns out they were on TV the next week.

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And they were a fraud. And I lost $1 ,000. I was pretty angry. I would have been kind of mad if somebody came up to me and said, you are so stupid.

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You dummy. Why didn't you think better? No. A little bit of compassion would go a long way, wouldn't it?

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And so for somebody to say, I'm so sorry that you got scammed. And it looked like a legitimate thing.

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Maybe I didn't do my research or whatever, but I was a victim. You know, Latter -day

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Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Hare Krishnas, and whoever you know who belong to a different faith may very well be victims.

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They may not even know a lot of the information we're talking about here. Again, you never want to say you.

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It sounds accusing. They may not believe you believe this. So you need to just ask them questions.

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And here's the number one question you can learn to ask. What do you mean by that? If you can learn that question, you will go a long way in having a conversation.

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Because the Eagles have shown very clearly the only way you can score is on offense, not defense.

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Last year, offense wasn't working very well either, I guess. But you know, the idea of you want to be able to not always be the

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Bible answer man. Let them do some explaining, as Lucy used to say.

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Let's do some explaining. And let's let you just, you know, and you start to find out when you do that with atheists especially, you'll find out the emperor doesn't have clothes, and that there's not much behind the facade.

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So I think that's important for us to remember that if you treat those who don't have the gospel not that you're superior, but you ask questions and you show compassion,

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I think that will be seen. And who knows what can happen in that kind of a relationship. Well, I do want to talk about the temple.

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I'm going to do something a little different. It's called pair and share. I know we're spread out a little bit, but I would like to, in just a moment, have you turn around to somebody behind you or next to you or however that works.

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It may mean you just have to move real fast. Introduce yourself real quick. Don't take any time, but then I want you to talk in the one minute

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I'm going to give you. It will only be one minute. Tell me all that you know, or tell the other person all that you know about the temple of Bible times.

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Ready? Go. Turn around and talk to somebody. 10 seconds.

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10 seconds, finish. And stop.

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All right, stop. Go ahead and sit down. Go ahead and come back.

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All right. Boy, they really got into that exercise, Pastor. I think that's what we'll do for sermons, find out how much they know.

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All right. Can you tell I was a teacher for 17 years?

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Those are great exercises because you get to find out what people believe. Now, if we had time in a classroom,

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I would have gone around and asked a lot of different people. But let me just ask two or three. Just raise your hand.

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Tell me something that you talked about. What do you know about the Bible temple? Yes. OK. OK.

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OK. So got some history there.

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Good. What else? Yes. OK. Yeah.

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And they talk about that and how they built it. What else did you talk about?

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Yes. OK. All right.

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Good. One more. Somebody else. Those are all good. Good answers. Yes. OK.

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Yeah. And you read a lot about the temple as David was building the temple, as Solomon was building the temple, not

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David because he wasn't allowed to, because he had blood on his hands, and then how that was destroyed in 587 and rebuilt.

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Ezra and Nehemiah certainly had roles in that. And you mentioned Herod. And so there's a lot as far as that goes.

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Let me ask you this question. What was the main purpose of the temple?

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Yes. OK, so what did you do at the temple?

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You went there. What did you do? You worshiped how? I'm sorry? It was all about sacrifice, wasn't it?

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And you can read all about this, how they would bring animals. Passover, for instance, was a very common holiday where everybody came to Jerusalem.

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Why did they come? They had to offer that animal that would bleed for their behalf.

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Now, the Book of Hebrews is a beautiful book because it explains how Jesus fulfilled that Old Testament sacrifice.

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And that's why Christians don't have temples today. You never see the apostles going to the temple trying to sacrifice.

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You never saw that in Acts because Jesus was a sacrificial lamb who was slain for the sins of many, as prophesied in the

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Old Testament. Now, where do you think that they did the marriages for time and eternity?

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Where do you think they did the baptisms for the dead? Where do you think they learned the special handshakes called tokens, as well as learn new names?

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What part of the temple do you think they did that? The part in Utah. OK, and you're looking at those temples, yeah.

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I'm going to show you, based on your knowledge, and remember I said earlier I wasn't going to use much

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Bible. I let John do all the Bible talking. And I'm not going to use much Bible here either. I just want you to understand, for those of you especially who are going to come with us, what the purpose is of this 152nd temple.

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And by the way, how many temples were there in times of old? There was one.

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When they built one in Samaria, was that kosher? Was that a good thing? They said, no.

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It was bad. It's wrong. We only have one. It's in Jerusalem. And Jesus told the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4, you worship what you don't know.

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Because she says, it's OK for us to do what we do here on Mount Gerizim. And he says, you don't even know what you're talking about.

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It's from the Jews. And so we see a lot of things that will help us understand what the biblical temple was.

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But the LDS temple, as important as it is, is not, I'm going to say, biblical. And so let's see if I'm, oh, this thing might not be on.

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Let me turn this on. Other side. Oh, it says it's on.

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Oh, there it goes. There we go. This is what George Q. Cannon, a general authority, said in 1871.

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Why is it we are so anxious to build temples? It is that we may attend to ordinances necessary for the salvation of the living and the dead, that we may be baptized for our ancestors who died without having the privilege of hearing and obeying the gospel.

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Now, what I talked about in the first hour, remember that plan of salvation, the chart.

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And so what you're doing here on Earth is you're trying to do what you can for yourselves. But you also have those who have already died, your relatives who need the gospel as well.

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That temple is very important for the people who are deceased. And that's what he said. That's why we're so into building the temple.

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According to Apostle Marky Peterson, in biblical times, sacred ordinances were administered in holy edifices for the spiritual salvation of ancient

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Israel. The buildings thus used were not synagogues nor any other ordinary places of worship.

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They were specially constructed for this particular purpose. Following the pattern of biblical days, the

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Lord again in our day has provided these ordinances for all who will believe and directs that temples will be built in which to perform those sacred rites.

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What Peterson is saying is the Bible teaches the things that we are going to do in the temple.

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I think by the end of the hour, when I have gone over some of the major things that take place there, you're going to say to yourself,

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I've never heard of any of these being done in the biblical temple. So why do we need temples today?

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So we just want to remember that he believes it was done in the pattern of biblical days.

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Well, to be able to go to the temple, you have to have personal worthiness. This is the president of the apostles.

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The reason he's the president, he's the oldest apostle. The three men at the top, you have

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Thomas S. Monson and his two counselors. When Monson dies, those two counselors go back to the apostles, and they go back in the order they were selected.

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Russell M. Nelson is in line to be the next president. However, he's 90. I think he's 92 or 93.

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And he's a former doctor. Here's what he said in a general conference talk in April of 2001, and cited in the

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May 2001 ensign. Our Redeemer requires that his temples be protected from desecration.

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No unclean thing may enter his hallowed house, yet anyone is welcome who prepares well.

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Each person applying for a recommend will be interviewed by a judge in Israel, the bishop, and by a stake president.

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The leaders in the Mormon church, the local level, the head of a ward would be called a bishop.

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He's not paid by the church. He'll have a full -time job. He's like your pastor. He serves a congregation up to 500 people.

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He can serve up to 500 people. He's supposed to do that job, and he's supposed to work in the insurance office 60 hours a week, or whatever he has to do to do that.

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So can you imagine the pressure on this man who does a five -year term? But he will interview the different people who want to go to the temple.

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They have to have a personal interview with that bishop. And then when the bishop gives his recommendation, there's another man who's a volunteer.

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He's called the stake president. A stake is made up of four or five different wards, and he's in charge of all of those people.

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And so both of them have to sign this card called the temple recommend. So you have to be worthy.

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Before I go into that citation, let me ask you this. What was the purpose of the biblical temple?

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Sacrifice, and who did it? High priest. The priest, the

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Aaronic priest. And when you went, did you get yourself worthy before you did the sacrifice?

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You were going to be by giving your sacrifice, and then you would be forgiven.

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And the Passover land would cleanse you of your sin. But here, it's opposite. You have to go and be worthy before you can go.

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So there's a little bit of a chip on the shoulder almost. I performed what I needed to do in order to go to this building.

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Listen to what the book of Luke says, chapter 18, verses 10 through 14. There were two men who went up into the temple to pray.

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One was a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed this way.

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God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

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I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,

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God, be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you, Jesus says, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.

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That's kind of a surprising story. Jesus' story sometimes can be surprising, like the prodigal son, those kinds of stories.

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You go, wow, where did he get that? I mean, that's not what you would expect. These Pharisees that Jesus was so critical of were as holy as you would get as far as the law was concerned.

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They kept everything, even to the point where they were tithing their mints in their common, it says. And Jesus went after them big time and said, you guys are sons of your father, the devil.

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You're whitewashed tombs. You're clean on the outside, but inside you're full of dead men's bones. I think Mormonism is kind of like that, because I think this religion, as pretty as it might look, and that building looks so nice, and if you go inside, you're going to marvel at the craftsmanship.

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They put a lot of money into this. And yet, when you look at the heart of this religion, it's taking people to hell.

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And I'm not trying to be mean -spirited. Mormons will sit in my audience and they don't like my conclusions, but they have to say what

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I'm saying is true, as far as the overall idea. They don't like this idea that I'm saying that you don't have to be worthy to go there, but this is what

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Jesus seems to be saying. It's based on your wanting to be forgiven. And the

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Pharisee thought he could do it on his own, and the other man did not. There are four major things that will be happening in that temple.

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When it closes in September, somebody from Salt Lake City will come, probably not Thomas S.

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Monson, because they're keeping him away from any public stuff, because it's kind of embarrassing some of the things that have happened in the last year when he's talked publicly.

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And so, in fact, this last conference, they only let him talk for five minutes. And usually, the prophet will speak for 25 minutes.

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They only let him have five minutes because the previous conference, he just boiled down, and it was very embarrassing.

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And so I don't think we're going to get Monson. We'll probably get either a first presidency member or maybe an apostle.

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And when they close it down, they're going to rededicate it. They're not going to tear the carpet out. I know that's a rumor, unless it's really worn down.

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But they'll have booties, plastic booties that go on your feet so you don't mar the carpet. And they're going to have you have a chance to go through that way.

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When they close, they're going to do four things. Number one, they're going to do washing and anointings.

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I'll talk about that. They're going to do endowments. And they call them instruction rooms.

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So when you go to the temple and they mention, this is an instruction room, that's what officially is known as endowment.

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They're telling you instruction room because they realize some people may not know what that is. And by the way, the Philadelphia temple is the first one in many, many years where they actually will talk to you in the rooms unless they change their mode of operation from Wednesday.

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They actually would have somebody in the major rooms to talk to you. That's rare. Usually it's a silent tour.

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I think they're doing that because they realize a lot of people here have no clue. In Utah, they would never do that because everybody knows what the temple is all about.

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So the endowment will be instruction rooms. Marriages or ceilings for eternity, they'll let you sit in this room.

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It has two mirrors. You can look in the mirror and you can see yourself looking like you're going into eternity.

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You'll have a chance to see that. And that's what they'll do. And then finally, baptisms for the dead.

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That's the most common ordinance of the four. The four here, that one is done by kids as young as 12 years of age.

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They're able to get baptized on behalf of other people. So those are the four things that they will be doing.

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Now on the tour, you will see where they do three of them. You will not see anything mentioned about washing and anointings.

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But just so you know, that is something that will take place as well. So let me tell you about the washing and anointings, the first ordinance.

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Washing and anointings are preparatory or initiatory ordinances in the temple. They signify the cleansing and sanctifying power of Jesus Christ, applied to the attributes of the person and to the hallowing of all life.

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Women are set apart to administer the ordinances to women, and men are set apart to administer the ordinances to men.

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A commemorative garment is given with these ordinances and is worn thereafter by the participant.

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So what will happen is you go into the temple in street clothes, usually you wear nice clothes going to the temple, because it's the

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Lord's house, they would say. And then you go separate from your wife. She'll go into the women's changing room.

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You'll, as a man, I'm going to talk about myself. I go to the men's dressing room. There are lockers in there.

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It's interesting. They have locks on them. I always like to ask, why do they have locks? They didn't let us go in this time in Philadelphia, but I always ask, is this a place for the worthy?

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Why do they have locks there? It seems like that you wouldn't need locks if everybody's worthy.

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And the answer we most get is, well, that's to keep temptation from happening. So even the worthy can be tempted.

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So they're not perfect, I guess. So you go in there, and you change into this white outfit.

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And then you are going to go to a special room where, if you're a man, it will be a man. If you're a woman, it will be a woman.

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And they will ceremonially bless you from head to toe. They used to touch the individual, putting their hands on their shoulder and on their hip and,

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I think, on their legs. So they would touch them physically. I don't believe they do that anymore. It's because of obvious reasons.

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And so they just kind of do a blessing. And they're anointing you and preparing you, washing you, kind of like a mikveot in the

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Jewish way. You would go into a pool, and you would cleanse yourself. And that's kind of what you're having there in the mikveot.

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You would get cleansed. And so that would be a washing and anointing.

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And then the commemorative garment, you actually have what's called a temple garment. And you will wear that always underneath your clothes.

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And so if you know Latter -day Saints, you will see, perhaps, if they are wearing a white shirt. Because at church, normally, the men will wear white shirts.

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And you'll be able to see, underneath, that would be the garment. And I'll talk a little bit more about that.

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But that's what the washing and anointing is about. This is what the garment looks like. They have different styles.

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This is one style here. It looks kind of like long johns, almost. It has special embroidery in it that comes from masonry.

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But this is what the Encyclopedia of Mormonism says. The white undergarment worn by those members who have received the ordinances of the temple endowment is a ceremonial one.

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All adults who enter the temple are required to wear it. In LDS temples, men and women who receive priesthood ordinances wear this undergarment and other priestly robes.

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The garment is worn at all times, but the robes are worn only in the temple. So they're white. You're wearing these white clothes in the temple, which you have to buy.

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And the church is the distributor, Beehive Clothing. So you actually have to buy the clothing to be able to go through this temple.

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Or you can rent them, as well. Having made covenants of righteousness, the members wear the garment under their regular clothing for the rest of their lives, day and night, partially to remind them of the sacred covenants they have made with God.

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Now, this is a very serious thing for Latter -day Saints. And it's not a question you really want to talk to the Mormon about.

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Don't ask them about their garments, and don't ask them about what goes on in the temple. They're sworn to secrecy, not to be able to tell you those things.

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So you put yourself in a place of antagonism. And we don't want to do that. But they do wear these regularly.

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The only time they take them off would be for bathing or recreational kinds of things like that, although there are some

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Mormons who will not take them off for any reason. Even when they bathe, they will take them off until it's still on their hand, and then start putting the other on.

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Now, this is the clothing nearest their skin. So they don't wear underwear like we would wear. It would be, if they wore underwear, it would be over these.

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And it's men and women wearing these undergarments. Very, very important with the symbols in them.

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They believe not only does it protect them spiritually, but also physically. In fact, in 1998,

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Mr. Marriott, who was of the Marriott Hotel chain, he was interviewed by Mike Wallace.

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And he talked about a house fire that, or excuse me, a boat fire that he was involved with. And it burned his clothes off, but the garments did not get damaged.

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You can go on YouTube and see that. Steve Young, the quarterback for the 49ers, a direct descendant of Brigham Young, talked about why he didn't wear the garments when he played football, because he felt that the sweat would desecrate the garments.

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That's not the way it was originally meant. It was meant to wear all the time. And so some, again, have taken that so seriously.

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Even when they're having relationships with their spouse, they will still have part of it on. Because they feel if they ever were to take it all off, then possibly something bad could happen.

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I mean, it's almost like a good luck charm. You don't want to ever leave that. So Latter -day

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Saints, in good standing, will keep that on at all times, and rarely, if ever, take it off.

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Then the second lecturer, when they go to what's the first room, which they'll call the instruction room, it says, you have had a garment.

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This is what they're told. And I'm going to say this. You can't see the temple ceremony.

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It's about a two -hour long deal, that the whole thing is. Except there has been a

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Mormon in the past two years who took a secret camera. He wants everybody to know what goes on in there.

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So his name is new name Noah. I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. But he had a temple recommend.

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He still has one. They gave it back just last month. They renewed his, because they don't know who he is.

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So he's renewed it. Now he's shown his face. So I'm sure he's going to get outed. But he has taken a secret camera and shown the entire ceremony.

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So if you're that interested, it's not the most exciting ceremony, but it's two hours long.

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He's taped it for you. And the sound quality is pretty good. And you'll be able to hear all this. And it's also on the internet.

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If you type onto utlm .org, Sandra Tanner's website, she has the pre -1990s ceremony.

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And they made changes in 1990. She has both of those. You can read those. But this is what it says. You have had a garment placed upon you, which you were informed represents the garment given to Adam and Eve when they were found naked in the

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Garden of Eden, which is called the garment of the holy priesthood. This you were instructed to wear throughout your life.

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You were informed that it will be a shield and a protection to you in as much as you do not defile it, and if you are true and faithful to your covenants.

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Notice, true and faithful to your covenants. This is so important. Now again, I don't like to make fun of this.

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There have been some who have, I think, been overzealous. And so down at Temple Square, in that area, when they're having general conference for those two weekends, there will be some people who will mock the

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Mormons. And one of the things that I've seen done is they take the garments and put it on a stick, and they wave it around.

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And then they throw it on the ground. And that, I think, is not a good way of doing evangelism. I don't think you're going to win many people.

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You're just going to antagonize them. But they're not supposed to defile that. Those are holy garments for them.

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They're not supposed to let you see them or anything else. And if you wear those, and you're true and faithful to your covenants, then

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God's going to bless you for wearing that. So these garments, again, are very, very important.

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As far as the endowment, the second ordinance, this is what it says on LDS .org.

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In a general sense, a gift of power from God, that's what the endowment is, worthy members of the church can receive a gift of power through ordinances in the temple that gives them the instruction and covenants of the holy priesthood that they need to attain exaltation.

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The endowment includes instruction about the plan of salvation. Remember, I was telling you about the preexistence or premortality, the first estate.

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And that is where you're going to learn some things as people are going to get put onto the earth.

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You'll see, for instance, a conversation that Lucifer has with Adam. And they have this conversation.

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Before 1990, they had a Christian pastor involved who was told by Lucifer that if you do my work,

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I will pay you well. They actually changed that in 1990 because I think there were a lot of Mormons who did not like the fact that their

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Christian friends were, their pastors were being mocked. But pastors, because they're paid, they believe that they're doing it what's called filthy lucre.

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They're doing it for the money. And they're also going to point out the TV preachers. I don't know what you think about those guys.

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But they're always wanting money. And they drive the best cars and wear the nicest clothes. I can guarantee you

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Pastor Jeff's not like that at all. At least he's hiding it, maybe. I don't know. But I mean, the idea that you're learning the story of how creation took place.

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You're learning the things that are important. And you're going to see this, by the way. It's the same production every time you go through, every time you participate in this.

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You are participating for yourself one time only. You and your wife go in when you get married.

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And when you go through, you're going through this. And you're learning these things. And the other times you're going to do this is going to be done on behalf of the dead, for your dead relatives.

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As far as Masonic similarity, in March 1842, Joseph Smith said,

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I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Freemasons at the grove near the temple.

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In the evening, I received the first degree in Freemasonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office.

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So he becomes a Mason in 1842. And in 1842 of May, he introduces the

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Nauvoo Illinois Endowment Ceremony. This ceremony contains many elements similar to that which is found in the

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Masonic ceremony. He moved up very fast. He became a 32nd degree Mason. And before the

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Temple of Nauvoo was finished, the ceremony was performed on the second floor of Joseph Smith's red brick store.

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That's actually a replica of it that's found in Nauvoo. That's where that took place, Nauvoo, Illinois.

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And so they were already started with the, there was not a temple yet. The Nauvoo Temple, this would be performed.

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They had a temple before that. The first temple would be in Kirtland, Ohio. But they didn't do the same ceremonies that they're going to do now.

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They met in the temple in Kirtland. And now they're going to start doing other things, the ordinances

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I'm talking about. As far as handshakes and passwords, according to Brigham Young, let me give you a definition in brief.

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Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord which are necessary for you after you have departed this life to enable you to walk back to the presence of the

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Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs, and tokens pertaining to the holy priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.

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So there are three rooms. The first one is called the telestial room. You're going to see a beautiful mural, beautiful,

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I forget what it was now. I'm trying to remember what, it's animal life, and it looks like paradise, and this wonderful scene.

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And then you go to the next room, and you'll walk, they'll have you walk right through the doors in this next room.

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There are chairs set up, I think it's threes, across, and there's maybe about 20 seats here and 20 seats there, 18, 21, it'd be in threes.

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And there were some fours, too. The men sit on one side, the women sit on the other. So they're going to learn this with a video.

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It's all done in video unless you go to Salt Lake City or Manti, where they actually do live performances.

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Otherwise, they're all videos now. Go to the second room, it's called the terrestrial room, or they're going to call it an instruction room, and you'll see a gold curtain.

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So you'll know that you're in the terrestrial room, the second level, and it gets a little lighter in there.

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Yeah, it's a little, the first one's a little dim, it gets lighter, and that's symbolic that you're learning and so you're growing in your knowledge.

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In that room, you are going to do several things. Number one, you've been given a new name that day.

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Everybody in that room, the men have been given a biblical or Book of Mormon name, like Noah, for instance.

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So you'll all be Noah, that is a name you'll never tell anybody. That's your name, only your wife will know.

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And the woman will be named, let's say Sarah. So we've got Noah and Sarah. Those names are important because there's going to come a day when you die, and the man with the priesthood, only he can do it, because he has the priesthood, is responsible to resurrect his wife, and he can't call her, my wife's name is

30:57

Terry, he can't call her Terry, he's going to have to call her Sarah. Now all the other people were named

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Sarah too, I hope they don't get confused there. But Sarah, and he will be responsible to raise her up from the dead.

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Then they will now approach the sentinel, who will be waiting with his hand out.

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And there are about, I think six different, they call them tokens, handshakes, you have to learn. They're all from Masonry.

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So if you're familiar with Masonry, there's a set of different handshakes they would give that's part of the brotherhood.

31:28

It's the same kinds of handshakes. The way you learn is you put your hand through that gold curtain, and there will be someone who's, in fact, there's on the door, it says ordinance workers.

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That's the door they would enter to go on the other side. You'll never see them, but when your hand gets through, they will have a script and they will teach you, they will make sure you're doing the handshakes right.

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If you don't get them right, you won't be able to get into the celestial kingdom. So you'll do that. With your new name, you'll be able to have the passwords necessary to move to the next life.

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That's why this temple is so important, because they need to learn how to do this, or they don't get to go to the celestial kingdom, and you can't go to the celestial kingdom without going through this for yourself.

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And so that pertains to the holy priesthood, and you get your eternal exaltation, and this is very, very important.

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As far as it being sacred or secret, we have a website called Sacred or Secret. You'll see us with website signs out there.

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We're gonna hold those up, and it goes to our website. If you go there, it goes to our temple page on mrm .org,

32:32

Sacred or Secret. They always like to say, it's sacred, not secret. Well, this is what

32:37

Richard L. Bushman, a Mormon, he's a apologist, and he says this in a newspaper article.

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While some members will claim that Mormon temples are sacred, not secret, Bushman said that temples are secret, plain and simple, noting that even members don't speak to each other about it.

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You are sworn to secrecy. You're not supposed to tell your kids. You're not supposed to tell, even if they're temple worthy, you don't talk about the temple, and certainly we as, we're called

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Gentiles. They are true Jews, they believe, and even the Gentiles are not, they're not supposed to talk with us either.

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So this is very important for them not to tell, and he says, wait a minute, it's sacred, but it's also secret.

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So we use that website sign. I can't tell you how many conversations I've got into when they come up and complain. You know, we're asking the question, sacred or secret .com,

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and they'll never forget that, and they'll go to our website, hopefully, and be able to see what we're trying to say. Before 1990, following the explanation and demonstration of the first and second token of the

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Aaronic Priesthood, the first token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or sign of the nail, and the second token of the

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Melchizedek Priesthood, the patriarchal grip or sure sign of the nail, a temple worker told the audience,

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I will now explain the covenant and obligation of secrecy, which are associated with this token, its name and sign and penalty, in which you will be required to take upon yourselves.

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As far as the penalties for doing that, if you proceed and receive your full endowment, you will be required to take upon yourself sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God, for God will not be mocked.

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If any of you desire to withdraw, rather than to accept these obligations of your own free will and choice, you may now make it known by raising your hand.

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So you are making this promise. And in the days before 1990, they used to promise by taking their thumb and saying that they would be willing to have their throat cut and their bowels disembodied, that you would actually be willing to have that done to you.

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In 1990, they changed that as well. That bothered a lot of people. That was the oath they used to take. Now it's more of an oral pledge that you will not talk about this at all.

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I'm going to skip this part. As far as obedience, securing the blessings, this is from the

34:58

Pace in Utah Temple. In the temple, it says, we promise to serve others and obey

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God's commandments. They are taking a pledge that they will do everything they are supposed to do.

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Before 1990, the penalty for divulging the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood, this is before 1990,

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I covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses that I will never reveal the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name and sign and penalty.

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Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken. And that's when they would come up with the cutting of their throat and their midsection.

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In pre -1930, they said, we and each of us covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the

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Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name, sign, or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by the roots.

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That's what they said before 1930. Marriages and sealings is another ordinance that will take place there.

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And this is what Joseph Fielding Smith said. Another thing that we must not forget in this great plan of redemption and exaltation is that a man must have a wife and a woman a husband to receive the fullness of exaltation or godhood.

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They must be sealed for time and for all eternity in a temple. Then their union will last forever.

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And they cannot be separated because God has joined them together as he taught the

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Pharisees. In Mormonism, getting married for time only outside the temple is only good for this life.

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But they have something more than what we would have. They have the ability to get married for eternity.

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So that's why going to the temple and getting married for this one time you go through is crucial because then you have the ability to learn these things that will get you by the sentinel.

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And if you've done everything you're supposed to do, you will be able to obtain what Heavenly Father obtained in his lifetime, the ability to become the god of a world.

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And this world is where Heavenly Father resides. As far as baptism for the dead, you are going to see a baptismal font the first room you go into.

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And it will be like a jacuzzi on the back of 12 oxen. This is what Joseph Smith was told, this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely the baptism for the dead.

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Those saints who neglect it in behalf of their deceased relatives do it at the peril of their own salvation.

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Joseph Smith described the appearance of the ancient prophet Elijah. And Oliver Cowdery, to him and Oliver Cowdery in the

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Kirtland Temple, and said, another great and glorious vision burst upon us for Elijah the prophet who was taken to heaven without tasting death stood before us and said, behold, the time has fully come which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying that he,

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Elijah, should be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord to come to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten and with a curse.

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And so that, he claimed, happened in 1836. And Malachi 4 was supposedly fulfilled by John the

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Baptist. In Luke chapter 1, the angel said to him, do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard and your wife,

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Elizabeth, will bear you a son and you shall call his name John. And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts to the fathers, to the children, and the disobedience to the wisdom of the just to make ready for the

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Lord a people prepared. So this idea that this was fulfilled through John the

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Baptist and is vital for salvation to take place. And Jesus says

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Malachi 4 was fulfilled by John the Baptist according to Matthew 11. Behold, I send my messenger before your face who will prepare your way before you for all the prophets and laws prophesied until John.

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And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come, he who has ears to hear. Let him hear.

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Gordon Hinckley said this. Through living proxies who stand in behalf of the dead, the same ordinances are available to those who have passed from mortality.

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In the spirit world, they then are free to accept or reject those earthly ordinances performed for them, including baptism, marriage, and the sealing of family relationships.

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There must be no compulsion in the work of the Lord, but there must be opportunity. So the baptism is important because Mormons get baptized in their local chapels or meeting houses.

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They get baptized for themselves. But people who are dead aren't able to do baptisms in a physical way.

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They don't have bodies anymore. They're in the spirit world, in the spirit prison it's called. And so that's why

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Mormons go and they do the baptisms on behalf, in proxy, they're not baptizing dead people in there, but they take usually young kids, 12, 13, 14, high schoolers will go there before school once a week or whatever they do, and they will sometimes get baptized 10 or 12 times, each for a different person, based on the genealogical work that's been done.

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It's then believed that spirit missionaries from spirit prison can come down into spirit prison, from paradise into spirit prison, and they can actually share the truth of the gospel, and then they will have that opportunity to accept that.

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Not only are they doing baptisms, but then when you go through the temple endowment ceremonies, you're doing that for other people.

40:28

So you are actually participating in there, it's for them. So when you learn a new name, it's not for you, it's for them, and they'll understand that.

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So you can have marriages taking place, you can have ceilings of family, children to each other, all of that is possible, and they stand on their behalf.

40:48

Here's what the baptismal font looks like, very similar what you'll see if you go to the Philadelphia Temple. And according to Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th president, when the

40:58

Temple of Solomon was built, we read of a molten sea, 10 cubits, or cubics he called it, not cubits like it should have been, from one brim to the other, it stood on the back of 12 carved oxen.

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This font or brazen sea was not used for baptisms for the dead, for there were no baptisms for the dead until after the resurrection of the

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Lord. So this is something that was in the Old Testament, but it wasn't used for baptisms until after Jesus resurrected.

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Ahaz, we learn, actually altered Solomon's bronze sea, and this is what 2

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Kings 16 says. King Ahaz cut off the frames of the stands, and he removed the basin from them, and he took down the sea off the bronze oxen that were under it, and put it on a stone pedestal.

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And so we see that, it was altered, and then we see that it was destroyed in 587, along with the

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Ark of the Covenant, according to 2 Kings 25, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came with all his army against Jerusalem and laid siege to it, and they built siege works all around it.

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In the fifth month on the seventh day of the month, that was the 19th year of King Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar, the captain of the bodyguard, came to Jerusalem, he burns the house of the

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Lord, and look at verse 13, he destroys the bronze sea that was in the house of the

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Lord, that Chaldeans broke in pieces and carried the bronze to Babylon. So the molten sea was actually destroyed, taken away as well with the

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Ark of the Covenant, which was never recovered. And so when Herod's Temple is modified in the first century

42:40

BC and the first century AD, does not have a bronze sea, there was a laver or basin, but it was never used for baptisms.

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It was never used. It's not a biblical thing to do baptisms in the temple. That's not what it was for.

42:55

Where's the sacrificial rooms in the temple, I always like to ask, because that's what this temple was all about.

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It was about sacrificing and the presence of the Lord, the holy of holies. They don't have holy of holies in most of the temples.

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They do have one in Salt Lake City, they say, but that's where the prophet can go. Well, in the

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Old Testament, only the priest went in there once a year, you know, and that was it. He didn't just go there whenever he wanted to.

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The presence of the Lord was made manifest there, but that's where the laver basin would be in the temple.

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Second Chronicles four, it says that this basin was for, the sea was for the priests to wash in.

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It was for cleansing. Like the mikvah, the plural for the, you would go into the water and they would have these.

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For instance, when we see the Essenes in Qumran, we see several different places where they would have washed themselves.

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You see the same thing at the Southern Steps in Jerusalem. You can go and you can see the mikvah that are located there.

43:57

That was ceremonial washing. Well, that's what this was for. It wasn't a place of baptisms. There's no proof of that whatsoever, but that's what was being done in the temple.

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As far as visitations from the dead, Wilford Woodruff said the dead will be after you.

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They will seek after you as they have after us at St. George. They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them.

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One of the things you'll find, some Mormons have an experience in the temple where they have heard in their heart, or I've even talked to Mormons who are not supposed to talk about it, but they've even heard their mother talk to them, whisper into their ear and said things that they were not, that nobody else would have known.

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Only mom would have known that. She talked to me. So there are a lot of Mormons who will go in here and they do work on behalf of the dead and they're looking for experiences with the dead and it's considered to be a positive experience if you get to have that.

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And I think the Bible's pretty clear that we're not supposed to be looking for those things and here the dead will seek after you.

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I think that should be kind of scary, don't you? That's not something we should be looking for. And Woodruff said every one of those men, this is the

45:05

St. George temple, and actually they will brag about this if you go to the visitor's center and ask them about it.

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The signers of the Declaration of Independence with George Washington called upon me as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ in the temple at St.

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George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to their ordinances of the house of God for them.

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The two temples that have had more experiences, at least documented, would be the

45:30

Manti Temple, which we like to go to, Manti in the center of Utah. There's a pageant every summer for two weeks and we go out there, do evangelism and share our faith with thousands of Mormons who go to this pageant.

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But they've had a lot of experiences there, as well as in St. George. It's considered to be a positive thing.

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If you go online, you can see the list of names that they have been baptized for, and those people here, these signers, were saying, quickly, do our work.

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We're in spirit prison. We can't do baptism for ourselves. We need someone to do that work.

46:04

Here are some of the people that have been baptized, or excuse me, that have had work done for them. Christopher Columbus, John Wesley, William Shakespeare, all your deceased

46:12

U .S. presidents, Albert Einstein, Stanley Ann Dunham. That is,

46:18

I believe that's President Obama's father, isn't it, I think that is. Numerous Holocaust victims, including

46:24

Anne Frank. They actually, twice now, the Jewish groups have told them to stop baptizing for Jews because they don't want it.

46:33

And so supposedly, right now, the church is not doing that, but I don't know how you can prevent these individuals from going in.

46:39

They have a computer screen, and they type it in, and whatever work has been done, as far as genealogy is concerned, that's the person who will get the work done for them.

46:49

Even Adolf Hitler's had his work done for him. This is his baptismal record. This comes from the church. We printed this off right from the church website.

46:56

It's 1993. I think I've been saying 1998 in other meetings. 1993 in London, December 10th, he was baptized for an endowed.

47:04

He had his work done. Somebody went through for him, and then a few months later, in March of 1994 in London, he was sealed to his parents.

47:13

Adolf Hitler will now have the opportunity to go to the very least, the Telestial Kingdom, the lowest of the three kingdoms, and that is considered to be a wonderful place if you like the bar scene, if you like to be around bad people, and you like drugs and things like that, you'll enjoy it.

47:29

It'll be eternity with all the bad people. That's OK. It's not hell. It's actually a good thing, and it's been said that, and I can't find the quote.

47:39

I've looked for it, and I can't find it, but it's been said that Joseph Smith said, if you could just peek into that, you'd want to commit suicide to get there quickly.

47:45

Well, if that's pretty good, then the Terrestrial Kingdom is even better, but even better than that would be the

47:50

Celestial Kingdom where good Mormons hope to go if they do everything they're supposed to do. The problem with any of this that we're talking about is you can take these verses and make them into things, into doctrines that were never meant to be.

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1 Corinthians 1529, else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead do not rise at all?

48:13

Why are they then baptized for the dead? Why do I capitalize these? Well, the reason why is because all the rest of the context is using we, us, our, first person, and Paul is making a case for the resurrection of the body.

48:28

He's not making a case that we should get baptized for the dead. You can't use 1 Corinthians 1529 to either support or go against baptism for the dead.

48:37

I would agree you can't use it against it, but you certainly can't use it for it because his purpose was to show that there was a bodily resurrection.

48:45

D .A. Carson, a Christian apologist theologian, said, several writers have offered the following analogy.

48:51

Imagine a Protestant writing, why do they then pray for the dead if the dead do not rise at all? No one would take this as an endorsement of the practice of praying for the dead.

48:59

It is a criticism of the inconsistency of praying for the dead while holding that the dead do not rise.

49:04

To make this rhetorical question an endorsement of the practice of praying for the dead, one would expect, why do we then pray for the dead?

49:14

Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 1529, Paul preserves the more distant they. After all, his primary concern in 1

49:20

Corinthians 15 is the defense of the Christian doctrine of resurrection. They've taken one verse.

49:26

They say, many plain and precious truths have been taken out of the Bible. And yet, here they go. They take a verse that uses the term baptism for the dead, and they've created a whole doctrine around that.

49:37

In a way that never did they do this in biblical times, the temple of Jesus, they didn't do this.

49:43

During the days of the apostles, why weren't the apostles going into the temple to do baptisms? They were doing them in the mikvahs, but they were not doing them in the temple itself.

49:54

But they claim that that was something that was taken away and no longer believed after the great apostasy.

50:01

So here's a summary. The Jerusalem temple was used for animal sacrifices, not baptisms or marriages.

50:08

I think that's pretty clear. I wanted to make that point clear because I doubt any of you talked about marriages and baptisms and washing and anointings.

50:16

Did anybody in their groups talk about any of those? Because they're not there. So it's not what the

50:21

Jerusalem temple was about. Worshippers in ancient Jerusalem enter the temple with a sense of unworthiness, not worthiness.

50:28

They were beating their chest, so to speak, when they handed over the animal. You are asked 13 questions in your interview.

50:35

You get the recommend, it's a little card, and you get it for two years. And here are some of the questions they're going to ask you.

50:41

Are you faithful to the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, which gospel are they referring to? They're referring to the

50:47

Mormon gospel. Do you obey the leaders? Do you obey the leaders? They're going to be asked that question.

50:53

Do you wear your garments and not desecrate them? You have to wear the garment.

50:58

Do you tithe? This is a very important one. Do you tithe?

51:04

If you don't tithe, the bishop will meet with you, and he'll ask you for the W -2.

51:10

And let's say you gave $1 ,500 last year, and you made $70 ,000 last year. He'll look at that.

51:15

He'll look at this, and he'll say, you owe $5 ,500. It's called tithing settlement.

51:22

What do you think about that, Pastor? Yeah, wouldn't that be great? You have to go see Pastor Jeff, and you're going to say,

51:28

Pastor, I want to get my membership card. You go, OK. Pay up. And they have to pay up.

51:35

It's called tithing settlement. They can't have, they're asked if they have had any alcohol or drugs or cigarettes.

51:42

Can't have that. They are not allowed to drink hot drinks, no coffee or tea. So it's called the word of wisdom.

51:49

Joseph Smith received a revelation that said that that was not going to be for man.

51:56

Tobacco would be for curing the bruises on animals, and hot drinks were not good.

52:04

It was basically, I believe, because Emma did not like all the men who were spitting tobacco in the

52:11

Kirtland Temple. And so she said, I'm tired of this. Get a revelation that will stop this. And so he did, but then she liked her coffee and tea, so he had to throw that one in.

52:20

And so Mormons today, drinking coffee or tea can prevent you from getting a recommend, which is necessary in order to be able to get to the

52:27

Celestial Kingdom. In fact, one leader said, don't let a cup of coffee or a cup of tea keep you from the ability to go to the

52:37

Celestial Kingdom. That it could disqualify you. So if you tell your bishop, man, you know,

52:42

I'm really trying on that, Bishop. I'm doing my best. They'll say, so are you drinking hot drinks or not?

52:48

Well, just on Saturdays. Just on Saturdays, I go to Starbucks. He's not supposed to give you the recommend just for that.

52:55

You have to have the law of chastity. Are you sexually pure if you're single, not having sex? If you are married, is it just with your wife?

53:03

You'll be asked personal questions like that. These are all the different things. And if he deems that you are indeed doing it, and by the way, there are a lot of Latter -day

53:12

Saints who lie through those things. They do. There are some people who will go through that temple, and they are not telling the truth.

53:18

And by the way, only one quarter of all Latter -day Saints will be eligible for this temple. Three quarters of all

53:24

Latter -day Saints do not have their recommends. Now, there's a lot more pressure. Get this. A lot more pressure to get your recommend, because if you don't have your recommend, not only can you not go through for yourself and your dead relatives, but when your kid gets married, you can't go and watch the ceremony.

53:38

It's upstairs, and you can't see it unless you have a recommend card as well.

53:43

So parents will be left out of the ceremony. Can't tell you how many heartbroken parents

53:49

I've talked to who are not Mormon who say, my daughter's getting married, and I'm not allowed to watch the ceremony.

53:55

No. Only those with the recommend cards can. So this really has a way of splitting up families and other ways like that.

54:03

But the sense of unworthiness is not the Mormon way of doing it.

54:09

You come fully proven to be qualified to go. And there's no evidence to suggest that baptism for the dead was something that Christians did in the early church.

54:20

It was a practice. There was a group of people called the Marcionites, and they did do that.

54:27

We know that historically, but they were scared that, well, maybe baptism is necessary for salvation.

54:33

What about those who never had a chance? We need to do that. But that's certainly nothing you'll find in the Bible that explains that baptisms are being done in that kind of way.

54:43

And so you already know about the books that we have there, and that's our website, mrm .org.

54:49

That's a lot of material, I realize. But now we've come to a time where you'll be able to ask questions on this or anything else.

54:57

Did that make overall sense, what I have explained, what you're going to be seeing? So before I take the questions, let me just say this.

55:04

Here's what you're going to experience. How many are planning to go with us this afternoon? OK, so a pretty good group.

55:09

If you're not planning, you still can go. And you do not need a reservation if you're willing to wait.

55:15

But don't go during the busiest time. Saturdays are going to be a busy time. You guys may have to wait a little bit.

55:20

I don't know, but they'll have a room for you. And here's my suggestion, pastor. Walk up to somebody and say,

55:26

I'm a pastor of the Evangelical Free Church, and I brought my congregation with me, and we really want to see. They'll find a way to get you up to the front of the line.

55:33

I've had it happen. So use whatever poll you have, because most of the people, 80 % there will be

55:38

LDS. So anyway, you're going to go into a waiting room, and then they're going to take you into a room, and they're going to show you a video.

55:44

It's about 15 minutes long, and they're going to try to explain to you the basic reason as to why they have the temple.

55:51

Then you're going to get up, and you're going to walk outside. And you'll see me, because I'll be standing right there as you walk by me.

55:58

So make sure you wave to me as you go by. I'll be handing out newspapers, because I've already been in the temple, in this

56:04

Philadelphia temple, so I don't need to go. So it gives me more time to hand out newspapers. Those newspapers in the back, if you wanted to take a few extra and hand them out to your friends or whatever, you're free to do that.

56:14

We're trying to get those distributed. You'll go across the street. You'll go into the temple grounds, and you'll walk up to the temple.

56:20

There will be kids sitting there, and you need to put your feet out, and they will put little plastic booties on your feet to protect the carpet.

56:29

Then you're going to go through. They open it up, and you're going to feel the air conditioning just hit you in the face. It's going to be a beautiful feeling you're going to have.

56:36

And you're going to go in there. The first room there is called the temple recommend desk. That's where they will look at your recommend and make sure that you're worthy to go into the temple.

56:46

So that's the recommend desk. And then you're going to go in through a little hallway, and you're going to go to the right, and it's called the baptismal font.

56:54

Now, what they did on Wednesday, if they're still doing this, we're not sure. But they have somebody in there who has a little script who will tell you real quick, in a minute, what goes on in there.

57:04

He won't mention 1 Corinthians 15, although they used to have a board in the old days, not the old days, just a few years ago, that would have 1

57:13

Corinthians 15 listed out. But he'll tell you about that. You'll see the baptismal font. Then you'll exit there.

57:19

And I think there's five levels. You're going to have to climb some stairs. They do have an elevator if you're not able to do that.

57:24

And so then they'll proceed to take you to what they call the instruction rooms.

57:30

You'll see the celestial room. And when you go in to see that gold curtain, that's the terrestrial room.

57:38

And when you exit there, the next room is the celestial room. Look, and you'll see the area where people are pulled through.

57:45

And then they will go through that, and there's a glass door they get to enter into the celestial kingdom. That's where the ordinance workers are working.

57:51

And so that's where the gold. When you see the gold curtain, you know you're in the second to last room. Then you get into the celestial room.

57:56

They had us sit down in the chairs. I've never had that before. They never want you to sit in the chairs, and they asked us to sit down.

58:03

And these are beautiful furniture chairs and couches. And so you'll sit down. They'll tell you a little bit about that.

58:08

And this is the magnificent room. You get to sit in, and this is typifying what their heaven will be like.

58:17

And then they'll also take you to the sealing room where people get married. There's a little altar where the husband and wife will be on both sides.

58:24

Look at the mirrors. You can see yourself go into eternity. They will not show you the washing and anointing rooms.

58:30

You may ask at the end of the tour. You're not allowed to ask questions. But at the end of the tour, they'll have a room where they'll have some missionaries.

58:37

And if you want, in fact, in our newspaper, we give you some questions you ought to ask. So maybe on your way over there, look those up and just ask a few questions and see what they have to say.

58:48

Where's the place for sacrifices? I always like to ask that one. Where do you get the sacrifices? What do you mean?

58:54

Well, isn't this temple supposed to be the same one that they had back in Jesus' day? Well, yeah. OK, well, where are the sacrifices?

59:01

Where did they do marriages? In fact, Jesus seemed to say that marriage wasn't for heaven, didn't he, when he was brought by the

59:08

Sadducees and said, well, this woman had these seven husbands. Whose will she be? And he says, marriage is not for heaven.

59:14

And yet, marriage is a very big deal. Being with your family forever. It makes no sense when you think about it.

59:20

Because let's say you do get to the heavenlies. You do pass the sentinels. And you're able to get into the celestial kingdom.

59:26

Here you are. And who are you with? Are you with your family? Wait a minute.

59:31

If your parents were faithful Latter -day Saints, where are they going to be? They're going to be in their own world.

59:39

See, God the Father is not living with mom and dad. He's not living with brothers and sisters. He's by himself. He is the

59:45

God. And everybody else is his children. So your parents will have their place. And your children, they get married in the temple.

59:53

And they get married for time and eternity. They're going to be in their own realm. So who will you be with?

59:59

Well, you'll be with your wife, if you're a man. And the man will get to add additional wives throughout the eternity.

01:00:07

So there will be other women who will be waiting. And he needs to be able to produce spirit children for the next world.

01:00:13

So that he can do the whole thing all over again, just like Heavenly Father did. So Heavenly Father, he had a

01:00:23

God before him who has done the same thing. And here, Heavenly Father comes in. And he's married to this woman.

01:00:29

And all these different women, he's able to produce these spirit children so that these children will be able to worship him as God.

01:00:37

The woman will never, by the way, be worshiped as God. In fact, Heavenly Mother is not even mentioned in any of the standard works.

01:00:43

She's not talked about. It's very rare that they talk about her. And they certainly don't talk about polygamy being reinstated.

01:00:50

But polygamy still happens today, not in this world. But it happens in the next world. And I'll tell you why.

01:00:56

Because while a man can only marry one woman in this life, when she dies, he can get married to another woman.

01:01:04

And guess what? Not just for time, but all eternity, if she has not been married to another man.

01:01:12

See, a woman can't be married to multiple men. But a man can be married to multiple women. So Russell M. Nelson, the president of the

01:01:18

Twelve Apostles, has two wives that he expects to see based on his sealings to them for time and eternity.

01:01:25

There's another apostle as well. So even though they say polygamy is no longer for the

01:01:30

Mormon church, it's true in this world. But in the next life, you're going to need lots of women to populate your world so that you can do the whole thing all over again.

01:01:39

And so my first child, if I'm a Mormon man, and my wife's with me, and all the wives are there, and my first child born, probably to my wife,

01:01:48

Sarah, she would be, I would name him Jesus, probably. And in fact, another son would be named

01:01:55

Lucifer. And we're going to have to have the whole thing happen all over again, just like it happened to God's father, and his father, and his father.

01:02:01

We're going to have to have a fall. And by the way, in Mormonism, it says in the book of Nephi, it says Adam fell that men might be.

01:02:08

The original sin is not such a bad idea. It actually allowed us to have bodies. So if that's the case, then we are able to have bodies ourself, because Adam did what was actually a positive thing.

01:02:19

And I don't know how you can turn original sin into a positive thing. It was disobedience against God. But that's what they have done.

01:02:26

And it's just going to continue on, and on, and on after that. So your hope is, you'll never be

01:02:31

God the father. Don't get me wrong. You're not replacing God. God the father is like on an escalator moving up.

01:02:37

He's progressing, and he's continuing. But your goal is to get on that escalator and progress with him. You'll always be behind him.

01:02:43

And then you hope that your children will be behind you and do the same thing. But if you have this idea that your whole family will be there in a physical family way,

01:02:53

I don't see how that's possible. But a lot of Mormons think that our view of heaven is corrupt.

01:03:00

Well, let me ask you this question. Who do you hope to be with in heaven? You want to be with God and Jesus, certainly.

01:03:08

And guess what? We're going to be with each other. It's called the family of God. And I think that's an important thing.

01:03:15

And no Mormon family is perfect, because every individual has to get to the celestial kingdom on their own merit.

01:03:21

So if you have a black sheep in the family, you're not going to be with him forever or her forever. And so you still are not going to be together in this idyllic way that your presuppositions have, that you're going to be able to have family together forever.

01:03:36

It's a nice idea, I guess. But at the same time, it's not biblical. And I believe God has something far greater than that.

01:03:44

So we'll take questions. Yes. Yes. Yes.

01:03:56

They have some of the best genealogical libraries around. You can go on Ancestry .com.

01:04:02

Best place to go is to the Mormon Genealogical Library downtown

01:04:09

Salt Lake City near Temple Square. They'll go in, and they'll help you. They have the best records in the world today.

01:04:15

And they are very accurate. Yeah. I mean, go on, and you have to pay for Ancestry .com,

01:04:21

but you can do it for free if you go to Salt Lake City. And people do that as a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, if that's your hobby.

01:04:27

But they're not doing it for a hobby. They're doing it because they want to become what's called a savior on Mount Zion. Their hope is that they can do this work.

01:04:34

And they will say, today I got baptized for eight people, and I was a savior for them because I was able to do the work they couldn't do.

01:04:43

So in essence, and by the way, we mentioned we want to be with Jesus forever. That's not what a

01:04:48

Mormon wants to necessarily do. He wants to be with his family more than he wants to be with Jesus. And that is very, very sad.

01:04:56

Question, yeah. Go ahead, yeah. Right here, yep. OK, so maybe I misunderstood.

01:05:06

They asked, and yet they claim to have a new covenant.

01:05:16

Well, and they would say, don't you believe in the Old Testament? Don't you believe that the New Testament was needed as a new covenant to replace some things?

01:05:24

And so it's continual. There needs to be some adjusting. There have been two major changes, was the polygamy in 1890 and the

01:05:31

Black Revelation in 1978. They haven't added any scripture since the early part of the 20th century in their canon, in their four scriptures.

01:05:41

But they do believe that God gives continual revelation, which really is not much different than it was 100 years ago.

01:05:49

Like, for instance, they had a proclamation on the family in 1995. And they say, well, this is wonderful.

01:05:55

It's about family. Well, Christians believe in having good families, too. I mean, why did you need this proclamation from the first presidency to tell us how we're supposed to have good families?

01:06:07

So there's not much changing as far as the overall doctrine. But they believe they have the keys to be able to make changes if they have to.

01:06:16

But we haven't seen anything major since 1978 that was so radical as allowing a group of people who were not allowed to participate in the temple before, if you had one drop of black blood, you were disqualified.

01:06:31

And all of a sudden, now they're allowing them to. That's a huge change, along with polygamy. You had to get married for time and eternity to be able to become a god.

01:06:40

And you had to get married to multiple women, not just one. And they changed that.

01:06:46

But it's called D &C 132. If you read it, it still is about polygamy. They call it celestial marriage.

01:06:52

And when you say celestial marriage, you think, well, that's referring to the monogamous marriage of a man and a woman. But celestial marriage in Mormonism historically has meant multiple women who would be married.

01:07:04

And so men, typically, would get married to more than one. Brigham Young had 54 wives.

01:07:09

Joseph Smith had 34 wives, all the leaders. John Taylor had several dozen wives.

01:07:16

And that was how they believed they would do it. I don't know. Does that answer the question, though, the fullness? And they just feel that if there's any adjustments that need to be made, if God wants to be known, he'll tell the prophet.

01:07:27

They have a living prophet who speaks directly to God. Yes. Adam sinned that men might be.

01:07:46

That's the verse that's found in the Book of Mormon. Adam sinned that men might be. So the fall of Adam was a positive thing because we, as spirit children, were waiting up there in the spirit world.

01:07:58

We were watching this. I mean, I don't know. I'm just assuming that we must have been watching.

01:08:04

And when Adam sinned, we must have been high -fiving each other because unless there was sin, there was no way that there would be people on the earth.

01:08:11

We need a body. We need a body to become a god. If we stayed up in the spirit world, we would have just had to be spirit children of God forever and ever.

01:08:19

That would've been kind of boring. We would rather be able to do what Heavenly Father did.

01:08:25

That only seems right, according to a Mormon. I'm talking from a Mormon standpoint. And so not that they would glorify the sin of Adam that he disobeyed, but their scripture says it was necessary in order for humans to be born.

01:08:40

And because you were righteous in the previous life, you had a chance by merit to be born on this earth that gave you the chance then to go to one of the three kingdoms and hoping that you're going to go to the celestial kingdom.

01:08:53

No. There would be no reproduction without sin, is what they believed.

01:09:02

So the verse, be fruitful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:09:10

That's a good point. I mean, that's a great point to say.

01:09:15

What does that mean? But they believed that they would not have come without that. Use that verse. That's a good one.

01:09:37

Was it an actual wedding? Do you take this man, all of that?

01:09:43

Then they did not get married for eternity. They only got married for time. They may come back and do it later as far as get sealed.

01:09:51

And see, but when you get married in the temple, all your children who follow get sealed automatically to you.

01:09:57

If you wait until after you've already had children, then you have to go back in the temple and have a ceremony that will seal your children to you for eternity's sake.

01:10:07

Now, as far as divorce, if you get divorced, well, what happens there? I thought it was for time and eternity.

01:10:12

But they can actually break that. And if the LDS officials are able to say, yes, let's break that.

01:10:20

That's a temple divorce. Now you can go get married again for time and eternity. But if it's a man who lost his wife, he can get married to another woman.

01:10:30

But check this out. If it's a woman who has her husband die and she was sealed, then, especially if she's younger, let's say she's 27 and her husband gets killed.

01:10:43

Yeah, Afghanistan. He goes to Afghanistan and gets killed. And so she's 27 and a widow. No man is going to want to marry her.

01:10:50

Because if she does get married, and in the temple, you can still go to the temple.

01:10:56

But you can only get married for time. She's to that man for eternity. And then any, and so she belongs to that first husband.

01:11:03

So the other husband, he's stuck. If he lives with her for 50 years and they have the greatest relationship, at the end when he dies, he doesn't get her.

01:11:10

The other man will get her. And also, any kids that she has with this new husband is the first husband's.

01:11:18

Yeah, that's pretty hard for a man to give all that up just because he loves this woman.

01:11:25

Because we're not just talking about this life. I can't get married for eternity. So he, and she may have had other kids.

01:11:31

He has to take care of her kids too. And then he gets no benefit at the end. So for a woman who's 27 and who lost her husband, that's a tragedy in the

01:11:39

Mormon realm of things. Because she can't get remarried in that sense. You only get married for time.

01:11:46

Did you have a second question you said before? It was short. Oh, OK. You said you had two questions and one was short.

01:11:54

OK, yeah. Yeah, uh -huh.

01:12:13

It is, you're right. It's the best place.

01:12:39

I didn't say that. I'm not big on that, but I went in for 10 minutes one day. And within 10 minutes,

01:12:46

I went back three generations of my family. They helped me. Boom, boom, boom. I had the right name, and I got that.

01:12:52

And I got census records that were printed off. Yeah, it's amazing. They're good. Did you have anything else on that?

01:13:17

Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah.

01:13:30

Think about a Muslim who ends up wanting to leave Islam. You know how difficult that would be?

01:13:36

I mean, that's probably the most difficult way to leave. But think about Mormonism. To leave the

01:13:42

Mormon church, you could very well be leaving not only your family forever and breaking the chain and making your relatives really upset, but you could easily suffer a divorce, and your kids hate you.

01:13:53

And I have friends, well, I have one friend who has been disowned, disinherited,

01:13:59

I guess you would say, from his family. He's not allowed to go to, they live in the same town. He's not allowed to go there for Christmas.

01:14:05

Both of his parents were in the hospital this year. He was not allowed to go see them. They don't want to talk to him. It's maybe a rare case.

01:14:11

Maybe it's not always that way, but there's a lot to give up. And my friend says, I'd rather have Jesus than anything else.

01:14:19

And like the song says, and he says as much. And his wife is still quasi -Mormon.

01:14:25

And so he's still married, but the bishop three years ago recommended to his wife that he ought to get a, that she ought to get a divorce, because he could not take her to the celestial kingdom.

01:14:36

And my friend got so upset, he went to the bishop and told him never to talk to his wife like that again. Because here's a religion that's all about family, and yet this woman, if she really is going to be

01:14:47

Mormon, really needs a man to take her to the next level, or she'll end up having to be a polygamous wife of somebody else.

01:14:53

And she'd rather have her husband be that person, but he doesn't believe it. And he was a missionary, served for two years in Sacramento and served under Jeffrey R.

01:15:02

Holland, who's an apostle of this church, a very important apostle. He's like their theologian.

01:15:09

It's very difficult in this religion to believe. We have to understand that when we're asking somebody to become a

01:15:17

Christian, there's going to be a price for these folks to have to pay that's more than anything you may have ever imagined.

01:15:23

Yes, Bill. So you can only be a

01:15:35

Christian? Supposed to. And it's funny, because we have a list of names who have been.

01:15:40

And we can go and find their records. And so who was Hitler's relatives to be able to do that, et cetera?

01:15:49

And there's not very good, I'm going to say, there's not very good control over that. You bring the names, they will type those in.

01:15:55

If they're not in the record with the, because they have to have so much information, date of birth, date of whatever you have that you found out genealogically, and they'll type that in.

01:16:04

If it's a unique record, you get to do that work. But I have heard of cases where they ran out of names and they've had people do the work for the dead, the same people.

01:16:12

That's been documented, where they just run the same names through, because they haven't done enough genealogical work to do it all.

01:16:19

They got to keep the people busy. And again, this place, this temple's open Monday through Saturday. It's not open on Sundays.

01:16:26

But they are constantly doing all these things for the dead. So yeah, I guess supposed to, but who knows?

01:16:33

They're really doing it for relatives. I don't know exactly what the rule is if you do find somebody like a

01:16:40

Hitler who needs to have that work, and you can't find the relative. Who would want to do this? Yeah. You said 80%.

01:16:49

For my indication on Wednesday, I'm just giving you an estimate. I asked the usher that was standing next to me.

01:16:56

I said, what do you think, 70%, 80 % LDS? He looked at me and he goes, yeah, probably you're about right.

01:17:02

And it was about 30%. So there are people who are not Mormon, but they're very curious.

01:17:08

And this is where you have to determine for yourself. If you don't want to go through there because you don't feel good about it,

01:17:14

John, for instance, doesn't like going through the temple. So he hasn't been through on this one. I like to go through because then

01:17:20

I get asked, so did you go through? And I'm able to say, yes, I did. Well, what did you think? You just opened up a can of worms here.

01:17:27

Come on over. I'll tell you what I think, and I'll go through some of the information here. I don't think it's biblical. We have an article in our paper on the front page showing you the biblical temple versus the

01:17:37

Mormon temple. They're so different. So for some of them, it's their only time they get to go through too.

01:17:47

They're going to have to pay up their tithes. And that's a big deal because tithing settlement,

01:17:53

I don't know how far back they would go. I guess if you're getting it for the first time, you don't have tithing settlement. But if you've had it and you want it renewed, you're going to have to come up with the money.

01:18:03

And did they take credit card? I don't think that's the case. But they will do payments. They'll do whatever it takes.

01:18:09

I listened to, on the first, if you want to go to a Mormon church service, go on the first Sunday of the month. It's called

01:18:15

Fast and Testimony Sunday, and they'll give testimonies. And I went to one. I took a Sunday school class there, adult class, about a year ago.

01:18:23

And the lady got up, and she looked kind of sad. She says, you know,

01:18:28

I've had a tough time, and I want to get my temple recommend again. And the bishop was sitting behind her.

01:18:34

She says, my bishop said I can't have it unless I pay tithing settlement. So she said, I don't have any money.

01:18:40

I didn't have a job. So there's how Heavenly Father took care of me. I had a wedding ring, she said.

01:18:46

And I put that up on ksl .com, and I tried to sell the ring so I could have the money to be able to pay for my tithing settlement.

01:18:54

And we're listening to this, and we're looking at each other going, you've got to be kidding me. She's going to sell her ring. She couldn't find a buyer for the right price.

01:19:01

So she ends up, she says, OK, I got to go out and get a job. She gets a job. She had small children, she said.

01:19:07

She goes and gets a job. She must have been a single parent, I think. I mean, it just sounded that way. And she got a job working 24 -hour shifts at some youth halfway house or something.

01:19:18

She did that for two months. She was, she says, I wasn't home a lot. You know, I worked my tail off.

01:19:24

But she says, I earned enough money that I was able to pay my tithing settlement for the past year.

01:19:30

And so she was talking about how God provided. And I just felt so sad that she felt that she had to go earn this money to be able to qualify.

01:19:39

So now she can go into the temple and do work. It's serious business for them, though. Without that temple recommend, you're not on the same status as those who have it.

01:19:50

But I'm going to say, yeah, a lot of LDS are going through. I don't ask them, are you temple worthy or not?

01:19:56

But I wonder, I think as you're wondering, how many of those people won't have a chance? This will be their only opportunity unless they go and do their work.

01:20:03

Yes. You know, and that's a good question.

01:20:14

If she wasn't, doesn't sound like she was working a full -time job before. She was taking care of her kids, but she needed this money.

01:20:21

Yeah, I mean, she's only supposed to tithe what she makes. So I don't know what she made the previous year.

01:20:26

But she said she had to work, I think she said a couple of months, to be able to earn enough money. And she's, I guess she worked 24 hours and she'd have a day off.

01:20:33

And then she'd go and work another day. I don't know how that worked for her. But she says, she admitted, she says, I wasn't with my kids very much.

01:20:39

Well, I would think as a bishop, I would think I want you with your kids. Let's see what we can do as a church to help you.

01:20:45

And they do a lot for that. I have to say, they do take care of their own. They have what's called a bishop's storehouse, where you can go and get food.

01:20:54

But they're going to ask you to volunteer and do some work to do that. But yeah, it really is.

01:21:03

Yeah. Yes. With their affiliations and stuff. Yeah.

01:21:21

Well, I mean, they won't make a big deal about the masonry. Only reason I bring that up is

01:21:27

I wanted you to see, where did he get the ceremony from? And I wanted you to see that. They have no connection whatsoever today.

01:21:34

So they may not even know that the emblems they're wearing, like the compass that's sewn in their garments, they may not know that.

01:21:44

But that is a historical fact, that he was a high -ranking mason who took a lot of those things.

01:21:49

And I've heard of masons who have gone through the temple ceremony. And they feel very much at home, because these are the same kinds of things that they would do in that society.

01:21:57

And it translates very well. You had a question back there. Yeah. Yeah, so I've had actually several people who are masons come up to me after and say, what are you saying?

01:22:11

I'm not going to say pro or con right now on masonry. That's not my topic here. But my topic is, where did that come from?

01:22:18

And it came directly from masonry. And I don't think there's any doubt from the historians. Nobody's going to disagree with me on that.

01:22:26

Yes. Yeah, angels are very important to the

01:22:34

Mormon church. I certainly have Moroni, who was a human being, who died, who buried the plates.

01:22:40

And then he goes and shows Joseph Smith those plates in 1827, or actually, 23. And then every year, he has

01:22:46

Joseph Smith visit the plates. And then on 1827, he has Joseph Smith lift the plates. These are gold plates, 6 by 8 by 6, made of gold.

01:22:56

Angels said they were made of gold, which is interesting. Because if you understand the weight of gold, gold weighs about 600 pounds per cubic foot.

01:23:06

So this is a third of a cubic foot. And yet, he supposedly ran with these three miles under his arm.

01:23:12

And so what my friend Bill has done, you go on our website and see these, he has made steel plates the same size.

01:23:18

Well, steel is going to weigh about 80 pounds. And Sandra Tanner has one made of lead.

01:23:24

That would weigh about 117 pounds. Have people try to lift that up. And they lift it up.

01:23:31

And they go, oh, wow, that 200 pounds is heavy. It's not 200 pounds. Gold would be 200 pounds. This is made of steel.

01:23:38

That's 80 pounds. Take that stack, put another stack, another half stack. And he ran and fought off attackers and all the rest before he ever got them home.

01:23:46

And yet, Mormons have never thought that through. So we're just trying to get them to think on their own. And then they have to come up with excuses like, well, it was a miracle.

01:23:54

But no Mormon leader has ever claimed that to be a miracle. That story was not told as a miracle. So then they'll say, well,

01:24:00

Joseph Smith was a buff farm boy. But Joseph Smith actually had a surgery when he was a kid. He had a limp.

01:24:06

I mean, he was not Arnold Schwarzenegger. My friend Bill likes to say, even Arnold Schwarzenegger being chased by Maria Shriver would not be able to do what

01:24:16

Joseph Smith supposedly did. You'd have to be a mighty man. And impossible. But they never even thought that.

01:24:23

You'll see pictures of him lifting these out of the ground with no problem. And yet, so these are the things that a lot of them have never thought through.

01:24:31

Question? Yeah. So would they be?

01:24:52

They don't want it. And that's a great question. And that's one of the excuses or one of the reasons we've been using against the homosexual marriage for many years.

01:25:00

And people have laughed at us. I'm telling you, if marriage is no longer between a man and a woman, and it's up to interpretation, then why shouldn't they?

01:25:08

In this past week, you probably have seen the show. What's the

01:25:13

TV show? No, The Plague of His Wife. Sister Wives. Have you seen

01:25:19

Sister Wives? It's on the cable network. And they just filed suit this week in federal court.

01:25:26

And they are working to get it legalized. And so why not? If marriage is between whoever you want to count,

01:25:34

I just saw a thing in the internet this week of a mother and a son who are in a relationship.

01:25:41

This mother, 16 years old when she had the boy. He got adopted. Now he's 18.

01:25:47

He found his mom. And now they're in a relationship. And they're asking, why shouldn't we be allowed to be married? So where are we going to stop with this?

01:25:54

But as far as polygamy, they don't want it to come back again. But if it does become legal, then the reason they got rid of it in 1890 is because the government said not to do it.

01:26:02

So what are they going to do with that if they're allowed to do it legally? Are you going to allow that to happen in your church? And I think that would be a problem.

01:26:09

As far as the homosexual issues, we have a very large homosexual population in Utah.

01:26:17

Salt Lake City is huge. We have lots of LBGT folks out there doing their thing.

01:26:23

They have a parade and everything. In fact, they say per capita, we have more on the west of Mississippi.

01:26:29

We have more homosexuals in Salt Lake City than anywhere but San Francisco. I think we even have more per capita than Seattle.

01:26:36

It's just incredible how many we have. And so they're trying to get that. Why can't the church allow for homosexuals to be in?

01:26:44

And the church says, no way. We are always going to have it be between a man and a woman. And they're standing their ground, but they're getting a lot of criticism.

01:26:52

And one of the problems is people are leaving the church I was telling you about before. Folks like the 80 -year -olds that ended up leaving last

01:26:59

Easter, most of them, I'm going to say this, most of them who leave are not headed toward biblical

01:27:06

Christianity. You know where they're headed? Atheism. We have a really hard time having them fall through the cracks because they have said, they've been taught if the church is not true, then nothing else is.

01:27:21

And what we need to convince them of is that there is a God and there is a Jesus. If you really loved

01:27:26

Jesus when you were a Latter -day Saint, then why wouldn't you want to love him if he really existed and he really does love you and he has a wonderful plan for your life?

01:27:35

Why would you want to just disregard all that you thought about Jesus? Didn't you love Jesus when you were a Latter -day

01:27:40

Saint? Well, yes, I did. I thought he was my Savior, but now I don't believe in him anymore. Why? Because the church disappointed you?

01:27:47

Jesus didn't do anything to disappoint you. The church did. Men let you down. It was a false religion, but through the

01:27:54

Bible, through a relationship that the Bible talks about, through faith alone, you can possibly have that.

01:28:00

And so that's what we as Christians want to do. We want to be able to have the open arms to say, come as you are and come to the cross.

01:28:08

And Jesus wants to forgive you of everything and not only to be able to just be a

01:28:16

Christian in name only, but to know that you are forgiven of your sins. Isn't that impossible? It says in 1

01:28:23

John 5 .13, we may know we have eternal life. And Latter -day Saints don't know that. So I'll be around a little longer here today.

01:28:31

If you wanted to go back, we'll still have the books back there. And so maybe you can talk a little bit about what we're going to do for our time.