Matt Chandler's Failure is Cedarville's Problem

It's that it's fascinating to me how easily someone in one religion can find the fallacies and biases in another religion. I think that what's fascinating your raise your razor-sharp on your your your criticism of Islam here.

Yeah, and but what I find fascinating Jeff is that you recognize that with other religions.

But you don't do it with your own because I that may be the case. And there's that confirmation bias coming up again. Apologetics live to answer your questions. Your host from striving for eternity ministries.

Opening the Show and Upcoming Apologetics Live Events

All right, we are live apologetics live here to answer your questions any questions you may have we will do an open Q &A at the tail end of this show but if you saw the title of this show we're gonna have some more difficult issues to cover and We're gonna be dealing with some texts of scripture because I'm very frustrated in what I've seen in some reporting in the news and so We're gonna end up dealing with that in a moment.

Let me first just to get out of the way. Not that it's not important, but it did we want to get on to the show. I do want to let you know that we we are gonna be doing on May 30th a free Seminar, it will be Justin Peters and myself.

It snatched them from the flames home edition we will be covering the topics of the sufficiency of scripture and the How to interpret the scriptures. Justin Peters will take the first one on sufficiency scripture.

I'll cover the topic of how to interpret the scriptures. Then what we're gonna do. We're gonna take a lunch break after that Justin Peters will deal in a little bit of detail. It's gonna be a longer session covering how to discern false teachers.

And then after that I will do I'll go through the whole book of Jude and so that's gonna be longer than an hour probably as well and We're gonna deal with how to identify false teachers. So that's May 30th.

You can go to striving for eternity org and the information will be there. If it's not there now it will be there soon. So just go there and look for the information to register and that is free of charge.

Just and I because we're not traveling. There's no sense in us Kind of charging because we just it's it's really our time. That is the issue. So and just and I both of us do not take speaking fees. We just asked for travel to be covered.

So neither one of us wanted to to put a fee to that. So What we want to also do is let you know that this is also a podcast. If you want to go to Apologetics live on any podcast app, you can subscribe and listen to these regularly.

You can go back and listen to old episodes. They're helpful and the we Do put this as part of the Christian podcast community. So that's if you are a Christian podcaster or someone who likes to listen to Christian podcasts you can go to Christian podcast community dot o-r-g did listen to all of them and We will be having tent.

We have a debate that we're trying to set up Tentatively May 28th. It will be a Baptist and a Lutheran's and so they're gonna deal with the issue of Baptism and so we're trust we're trying to work out all the details on that.

So when I get those I will give those to you. All right, so what we want to do is we want to Cover some issues here that I think need to be addressed if you have heard. There is issues that are going on at Cedarville University and I'm gonna bring my my guest host in here Anthony dr. Anthony Sylvester.

You and I've been doing a bit of research on this these this issue the issue deals with Cedarville University and It deals not directly though. We We want to say from the outset Both Anthony and I are not going to address the specific issues of whether we think Dr. White at Cedarville has has done wrong or not because we're waiting for the investigation.

There's an investigation that's ongoing there. We're gonna explain everything that that has happened, but we believe that internet bloggers Are you know shouldn't be jumping Beyond what actually could be known and I'm gonna show you that there is some a lot of blogging that's going on about this.

And some of that is I'm gonna argue is for a purpose people who have a something possibly against Cedarville and Dr. White. I also believe that There may be other Reasons and we're gonna get to that but I do I will say that I do think that this Problem that is that Cedarville now has to deal with is the fault of someone else and that is Matt Chandler of Village Church and So for full disclosure because I think Anthony you wanted me to make sure I I mentioned this For full disclosure.

I do know. Dr. Thomas White. We we have communicated on several occasions we've spoken at conferences together I Find him to be a man of integrity and and this is gonna be a thing that I believe I'm if I see someone who has a history of integrity.

I'm gonna be more likely to believe them over people that have a history of a lack of integrity and We're hopefully gonna explain some of that throughout this program so Any any things that you want to bring up Anthony before we get started with some of the the clips we have?

Well, no, I think I should reiterate though that that's right now Thomas White is innocent, right? I mean he's innocent and and unlike what The me to movement has been doing in in recent times as well as just lots of other people is they're very quick to take Allegations and propagate him to the point of being true or almost true and and slandering people.

So much so that even when somebody is found to be completely innocent That their reputations are destroyed forever. And and that's the part that could be unfortunate in a situation like this. So we just have to we have to keep in mind that Thomas White is innocent right now and and I also.

Before you go on to that. I are you telling me the me to movement? I mean Joe Biden's automatically guilty. So, so let let's. I mean because this is actually you bring that up, but you know the me to movement.

But this is a good example of something for folks who didn't see like page 35 of the the New York Times when the whole thing came out when when Brett Kavanaugh got you know when he was in there was an FBI report that was done and There was a gentleman.

I forget his name now. But there was a gentleman who was in that FBI report who admitted to being the one that actually raped that woman. So all of those Democrats when they were Arguing either they didn't read the FBI report that they didn't want released.

They wanted the FBI investigation. They didn't want it released. But if they read it, they knew Kavanaugh never did it but even till today you still have them Arguing that Kavanaugh is guilty of rape and yet Joe Biden now Kavanaugh.

There's no evidence that they actually that he and this woman actually met but within the case of Joe Biden She actually worked for him. There's actually records that she's been saying this for a long time.

That could be documented unlike the Kavanaugh case or word that they were documented.

She came out with this years ago, and it was just kind of brushed aside.

By their staffers. So I mean a double standard that we do see a standard where if you're in the right side of History party politics, whatever really, you know social justice. You get a pass when you do the very same things that they accuse others.

I mean, I think it's a great illustration because they knew Kavanaugh was innocent. He never did it but they tarnished his reputation anyway, and this is why I Think we have to be careful and deal with this properly and look at the evidence.

We actually have not what we assume that.

Yeah. Absolutely, and and I think that that's a this Kavanaugh and invite an issue, you know. There's there's been charts floating around on Facebook. I was trying to pull one up right now I couldn't grab it right away.

But it goes through a list of like 10 or 12 things down the left column, right? And you've got Kavanaugh and Biden at the top of two columns and it shows that When you look at allegations and the Allegations that seem to be more true versus others you can literally check the box right on down the list for Biden because of because of the proximity like you already said of the of the accuser the Not only in in time but also in space right as well as so many other factors in all of this and yet Kavanaugh was put through the ringer where Biden has been given a completely free pass.

And so it goes to show that the me too movement They they really don't care about the females that they say that they're trying to protect. They care about an agenda that they have what their what their major agenda is and and you know I guess it's a great segue into what we're what we're dealing with right now because So Andrew you might be able to to give viewers a little bit better of an understanding than even I can.

When Thomas white came to cedarville He had a clean house.

Thomas White's Hiring Standards and Cedarville's Conservative Direction

Why? Yeah, and I think he did it in a and this is going to be part of the thing. You know is that thomas white is very conservative.

And you mean like the bible? Yeah. Yeah. Okay I'm, just making sure that we were we're making that association.

Of course throw up Ethan is saying cedarville is his second choice for colleges right now. Well, I I would say um, ethan that it's it would be my. It has been my first choice for people because of thomas white um.

So when thomas white got there the church the the seminary, sorry the school was going more liberal like many. Many many seminaries have done many christian universities have done. Um I we may I may bring up some some other things with other universities.

Tonight that we see where they're going more liberal. And it takes a lot to turn that around. Thomas white did something when he got in. Uh, and I had heard about this. You know after I had uh, this happened before I knew him.

But what he did was he he basically gave the doctrinal statement first cedarville to all the professors and he gave them. Uh, you know, basically their contract said that they had to agree with the doctrine of cedarville.

Now he realized that as with many universities uh, you get professors who don't agree, but It's it's kind of accepted that they just they've been teaching there they get allowed to keep teaching there.

They get tenure. What what he did was he basically wanted to clean house? So he offered as far as I understand he offered all the professors that anyone who could not Agree to the doctrinal statement of cedarville.

They would be given One year salary they could work for one year. They could teach that year. And then they would be let go and get a whole year severance. So they had two years to go look for work and and still get paid however.

If they signed the document. Saying they believe in it and it is discovered that they do not believe in it. They would they would the agreement in the contract was they're let go immediately. Now what that did was it got a bunch of people that saw the writing on the walls knew It's better to take the package and leave.

And so it was a very good way of kind of cleaning house and and still respecting the professors who had been teaching there and had been You know some for years, but they can move on and. But he wanted professors that were going to teach.

Basically the bible when my daughter and I should as full disclosure my daughter attended cedarville and loved it. Uh, my son-in-law also is a cedarville graduate.

And my pastor's kids all are yeah.

And and i've spoken in chapel there. So I mean we it's not that There's not a relationship that we have there. Now anyone who's going to argue. Well that makes you bias. I'm going to argue that I think that the people breaking this story have a bias as well.

Um, however, I will also say that people who know me people who've watched this program for a long period of time They know that I have a record Of respecting other people's opinions and not misrepresenting people.

And so I think that even if I have a bias I have an ability to put that on on The side to be fair with information given.

And and look here's the reality too is people should be able to Listen to this show and recognize that we are doing nothing but presenting the facts that are actually known the facts that are actually out there versus the rumors that are being spread by sources that Have not provided evidence of what they are claiming to be at least at this point.

Yeah, because and we'll get to the fact that claiming someone has evidence and actually showing evidence are two totally different things. And so one of the things that really impressed me with dr White was when he had all the parents at the you know.

When you take your kids to school that first time the kids go and do stuff. And then dr. White actually wants to speak to the parents and it was really interesting. I mean so much of his focus was on Training and discipling christians to impact the world.

He he you know from what I know. Uh from a you know someone who you and I have a you know is a friend who also knows him. A doctor knows dr. White. Uh, he said dr White could probably been the president of any seminary.

But he said at seminary you have an influence on churches. Where at cedarville he has an influence? That that permeates the world every career. And that's what he was looking to do. And that's what he was telling us parents.

He wanted to see these kids be strong Christians so that they would take their faith serious. They would go and evangelize in the the pharmacy, you know the Business world the computer world whatever career path they take that they would be Strong christians evangelizing and making disciples so much.

So a couple times in as he's talking to us. He's going they're going to get a good education, too. It's almost like that was a secondary thing. He was like you're paying good money for this. You're good.

They're going to get a good education, too. And the reality of this is that I I saw that with him. Uh, we saw that uh when there were issues early on with page patterson who was one of the trustees, uh thomas white was very quick to remove him as a As a trustee before.

The others I mean he was one of the first to to take action so. You you end up seeing that there's he he has a history of Being quicker to take action to do what's right. And you know i've i've been able to see I believe there's some things i've seen that shows some integrity.

That he's willing to do what's right and i've i've had some private conversations with him on areas such as social justice and things that uh, you know. Go on with within that and he has taken a good strong stance on that and I I see him as a man of integrity.

All right now. Could he be so let's get to what the issue is. And then we're going to back up to why we we think there's issues with with matt chandler and what the connection is. There is a Dr. Anthony moore was at village church.

And while he was at village church Uh, it is now reported. That he had uh, he he's a man who's married. I think he has two children. But at the time he was a pastor at village church. Uh, I think the fort worth.

Pastor or lead pastor at the fort worth campus.

Anthony Moore, Village Church, and the Hidden Nature of the Sin

And so for folks who don't know the way that is is you have guys who are lead her pastors or in this case lead pastors of a Campus, even though matt chandler is the pastor that's over several churches.

There are churches that do that and what happens when it comes time for the sermon time they bring a screen down and you have Like a satellite church, but they have local pastors. So he was the lead pastor at that satellite uh, he was As the records seem to show now he was leaving his phone at least five times in the shower recording one of his other staff members A subordinate to him.

Uh, this is someone the victim and dr. Moore went to school together. They had um There seems to be a very uh The relationship between them was uh, the victim described as very dependent Uh that that more was dependent on the victim that uh, um the it seemed that uh It was verbally abusive emotionally abusive that dr Moore was verbally and emotionally abusive to the victim.

And so the victim one day discovered this phone in the shower and found it was recording Him he downloaded four videos of himself In that he had found on on the phone. So he had a record of it Uh reported it to village church and dr. Moore was fired uh.

About six months later. Dr. Moore It seems through the influence of page patterson who was a trustee uh, page patterson seemed to be the one to to Try to bring him in Brought in dr. Moore Thomas white dr. White would not allow him to be a professor.

However There was some strict He he said that he had spoken to anthony moore and in that conversation He felt that this was a from what he was told and this is what he has blogged about thomas white. And so this um Everything i'm saying you could see on his blog Uh that he was told that it was a short-term thing.

In other words, it was kind of like a one-time uh one-time type of You know happened there was it was something with video and Sexuality, so it wasn't we're not sure whether At least what the church was told village church.

We'll get to that in a moment but it doesn't seem like I mean you could have assumed as what I did when I first heard of this that it might have Just been pornography. And maybe it was a one-time failure um so When you look at that It had to do with with video harming someone else um.

And there was some immorality in it now if Dr. White believed that this was a one-time failure. Not something that occurred over many months that uh, he he said that he was willing to go forward with the idea of it being Something of a reconciliation now he was he was told supposedly That dr. Moore is not qualified for any ministry.

So he was hired in an administrative role not a ministry role. Not a professor role. He was not faculty. There was rules. He had to be at every chapel. He had to have weekly counseling with dr. Jason lee.

He had to uh, there were restrictions he wasn't allowed to be alone with students. He had to uh meet with all students and faculty in public so There were things or at least students in public. Um, so there were there were rules and there was things that he had to do.

In steps of a five year reconciliation plan. And as christians, I think one of the things is we we do have to recognize Reconciliation is something we should be looking to do. We don't just write people off and reject them.

Okay, so I I I want to believe that dr. White had good intentions of reconciliation. Now there's claims that he knew all the details all along. Those as far as we know are claims i've looked through many excuse me many of the blog articles that i've seen And i'll probably have a lot of them listed in the show notes and and you could look at them yourselves uh, I didn't see anything in them that.

Showed that there were claims of emails claims of proof. But they didn't have it. They didn't show it.

So, you know actually andrew this might be a time if I can read a couple of things. Yeah, we have. We they're the only email that has been Leaked out as this potential terrible evidence. I you know, let's let's let's listen to what these words are, right?

So this is a letter that That's dated. It's an email from thomas white in july of 2017. Sent to his board of trustees outlining this plan he has for um dr. Anthony moore. So he writes this. Please allow me to request a prompt response to this first item if you're not comfortable with his direction.

I'm working with a young man named anthony moore. He was a student of mine at southwestern seminary Worked for me there and I consider him a friend. I know him well. Jason lee was also his phd supervisor knows him.

Well, he is a conservative Evangelical african-american with a winsome and charismatic personality. Who has a phd in theology? He was serving as pastor of the fort worth campus of the village church in january he had a moral failure and had to step down.

His failure in general resulted from being sexually abused from the age of four To somewhere between eight nine years old which caused him to struggle with same-sex attraction. While he has a strong marriage and three kids the scars of his past never dealt with.

During a dark moment of questions temptation and curiosity He acted in perversion. Technologically with another person there was never any physical contact but these actions were wrong and caused him to step down so if if we just stop there in this in this email it's We could interpret this all kinds of different ways the me too people Want to interpret this in the absolute worst way possible and yet this could very easily be interpreted.

Right because our job is to give the benefit of the doubt especially do a guy with with uh Um the type of pedigree that that's uh that thomas white has had in his life in terms of um his being upstanding.

When we look at something like this, this could just be Pornography, I don't want to say just right. I mean just Pornography is bad. That is that.

I assumed when I read What thomas wright blogged about what he wrote to the trustees what he wrote to You know as a supporter of cedarville He wrote, you know, I was I I was in a group of supporters known as the president's club.

He wrote to us. He wrote to all the supporters. He wrote a letter what he gave to the trustees. He wrote a blog. He spoke about it in chapel. I mean the thing is he immediately took action when he found out there was more details.

He immediately fired and anthony moore Not only immediately fired him but he went out of his way to be public about it. And we'll get to that in a bit so continue.

Well, I mean in that letter that's really all there is that's pertinent to this but this would also be very similar to What is in thomas white's? Letter that he wrote in his blog Just in the last week, right?

So he says. Um, I believe it was saturday january 14th 2017 when I received a phone call from my friend former student and former employee Dr. Anthony moore. I first met anthony around the spring of 2006.

When I answered the call I knew immediately from the tone of his voice that the purpose for the call was not a joyful one. He told me he had wronged another person in a morally serious way using video and technology.

But his transgression was not physical in nature. He also told me that he was he would lose his ministry at the village church. He was repentant sobbing and crushed. I was heartbroken for my friend his family and all parties involved and so we see a another very very similar Blog, you know a very similar wording in the blog here.

As what the original email was um this. According to what we have evidence wise it his train of thought is here. No physical contact. Something with video with another mail.

Yeah, and and so let's let's look at the scripture that he that thomas white used for what he was doing and that's james 5 19. Which says my brothers if any? Among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back.

Let him know that whoever brings him back a sinner From his wandering will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. That was his intention to to live out that passage. He's Dr. White in all that i've read has kept a consistent story that becomes important because if someone's lying they usually give out a little bit more detail and You you pick up the lies that way.

So far, he's been consistent now you could argue. He's consistent because he knows he's going to be investigated and he's worried about his job. Okay. That could be maybe he's just really intelligent.

Well, actually he is really intelligent. So. Is that the purpose. Well he's he's it seems in the communications he made years ago. Not recent but years ago in letters to his trustees it was the same thing the goal of reconciliation.

Yeah, so oh go ahead now I so.

This is where I think the trouble comes into play and I don't know if you're ready to transition now towards village church. But here's here's what I find to be troubling and I think we're going to lead it off this way.

In thomas white's letter, it's a long letter. Read it, you know, I think it's it's great for people to read but um. From the part that I read just a moment ago. I'm going to go a little bit further down now.

He talks about his plan of restoration for his friend. Dr. Anthony moore. And he says this here. You're reading from the blog article. I'm reading from the actual blog article thomas white's letter that up while you read it.

Okay. So. Right there. Thank you. Perfect. Perfect spot. So he writes. I took the following steps in my efforts to develop this plan. Spoke on the phone multiple times with elders at the village church.

Okay. Now let me repeat this because this is going to be really important. Spoke on the phone multiple times with elders at the village church matt chandler's church. Thomas white spoke to them multiple times.

Okay, let's go on. Corresponded on an ongoing basis with the village church. As we designed in our plan. So not only did he speak on the phone with the elders multiple times at village church. He also corresponded on an ongoing basis with village church as they designed the plan for restoration.

He spoke with members of the cedarville cedarville university board of trustees to gain input and expertise acknowledging the risk of attempting to restore someone. Obtained a letter of support from someone who had been meeting and working with anthony.

Obtained a letter of support from a counselor who had been counseling with anthony over the previous six months. Okay, interesting there. Obtained a letter of support from a pastor who knew anthony as a high school student officiated his wedding and counseled anthony and his wife through this difficult time.

Talked with anthony several times with dr Jason lee dean of the school of biblical theological studies at cedarville and others about the situation and about the need for ongoing Counseling and accountability in order to proceed with restoration.

Performed a criminal criminal educational and employment background check which all came back clean on july 7th 2017. Yeah criminal. As well, right.

And we're you know, the reason why to bring up the criminal aspect of it Is because according to Uh, texas law what he would have done is a criminal offense. Um and there was a investigation. That we have so what we end up seeing is.

There there was no criminal record even though What he did was a criminal offense. Now, we're going to hear. Why that may have been? What I want to do is kind of move to the factor. Why is it? I believe that matt chandler and village church is guilty.

Or has the the the responsibility to bear? Let's start with scripture. It's a good place for us to always start. Uh, let me bring up a passage of scripture that deals with how to deal with pastors. So this is first timothy chapter 5 i'm starting in verse 17 and you can see it on your screen.

If you're listening on the podcast, then you'll just listen to me read and uh. Don't mind all the markings that I have in my bible. It's just the way that I Do my study. All my highlights in different colors and things, uh, see I have a I have a blue letter bible see right there look blue letter.

Um, actually i'll tell you the the color coding and as you read it you can know it anything that's in blue there. That's blue and bolded like that. Those are are definite articles. Anything that's red and bolded is a command in greek.

It's an imperative. And then I just kind of number things. So, okay, let's let's look at this. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of a double honor especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

For the scripture says you shall not muzzle an ox When it treads out the grain. And the laborer deserves his wages. Now here's becomes the issue verse 19. Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

For as those who persist in sin Rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of god and of jesus christ and of the elect angels. I charge you To keep these rules without prejudging.

Doing nothing from partiality. Do not be hasty in laying hands on uh on laying on of hands. Nor partake in sin of others keep yourself pure. All right. So these are instructions to timothy. I really want us to focus.

Starting on verse 19. This is the instructions of what we do When there is a sinning pastor. It's we do not take it lightly. But if a pastor is sinning, you don't just take it on one person's word. You have to do some investigation.

You already saw that thomas white did some investigation into this. Uh to verify things and that wasn't for a pastor position that was for an administrative position. So. But when a pastor does sin on verse 20, what is the command?

From god. It's to rebuke them in the presence of all if you have one who persists in sin. This is not I sinned one time. This is a pattern of sin and in dr. Moore's case this went on for six months. With five different videos that were recorded.

So this was not a one-time thing. So what does scripture command. For matt chandler to do in this case matt chandler. If you notice I told you that Red bold means it's an imperative the word there for rebuke is an imperative.

Let those who persist in sin those who those pastors who persist in sin There to be rebuked in the presence of all so that all would stand in fear. There's a purpose for that. In fact I would argue that that is the best thing that you could do for a sinning pastor.

If a man is persisting in sin to make it public. It does several things. One. It makes the congregation realize we take sin serious here. We're we're concerned about the purity of the church. Okay. Two it lets them know he can't hide.

Because what many men do and this is a problem that you have in many churches. I have counseled Dozens and dozens probably a hundred churches. That have gone through difficulties and i've always given the same advice, especially when it's a pastor.

Be public about it. Don't try to put it under the rug. And most churches what they do they try and take it easy way out. Let's not mention things. Let's not talk about it. Let's just be done with it. And what you see especially with pastors that sin.

I counseled one church. Where they had an associate pastor who went to a young Younger ladies. He was older than her went to a younger woman single woman's apartment to counsel her. She wanted to meet him at the church.

He wanted to meet her at her house. He made sexual advances. I was counseling the the preaching pastor through this situation. Here's the thing though. What ended up happening is in his investigation.

He discovered. He's resigning and he's moving on and what did he keep doing? This guy just moved on to another church in another church in another church because the sin wasn't public. It allows for a pastor to do that.

Exactly what I believe anthony moore did here is. Uh matt chandler. And why I say matt chandler is responsible. I want you to listen Very closely to what matt chandler says about the reason that they had to let Dr. Moore go.

Now you have all this that you've now heard of what actually happened. See if that fits what matt chandler says does this fit with first timothy chapter 5 verse 20? Or did he Violate scripture and sin and allow Dr. Moore to move on to other ministries maybe or other things without knowing all the details.

This is what was said to the church in the presence of all. So I I'm saying this and I just because I want to be clear that you understand scripture. Gives us a clear Indication of what we have to do.

All right. So let's give a listen and then you you make sure that you can hear this. Um, let me know if you can't. Yep.

Last week we learned of a sin issue that has required the elders of the village church to make a sober and serious decision. Anthony moore our fort worth campus pastor has committed grievous immoral actions Against another adult member that disqualify him As an elder and staff member based on the biblical text in first timothy and titus chapter one.

He has been removed from his role as a campus pastor and as a village elder due to these actions. Anthony acknowledged his sin when meeting with the fort worth elders and the three lead pastors of the village church.

And we want to make it abundantly clear that we believe that he is unfit For ministry at this time including speaking engagements at conferences or other churches. Our hope and desire is for him to walk in faithfulness and repentance.

We believe he is in need of deep Healing and strong counseling for an extended period of time. We do not plan on sharing any additional details about the nature of the sin issue at this time Although we completely understand the desire to know more.

We believe we have a duty to protect the person who is directly sinned against in this situation as well as anthony's family.

Your uh, so what you see there is what what was their concern the concern that they had Was not for the church. It was for the victim which I understand and anthony's family. But he shirked his responsibility to the church.

Just as the church is commanded to have qualified pastors when a pastor sins It is not something that you say. Well, we're just gonna to protect. You know people we're not going to let you know what he did.