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Alright, well let's finish this bad boy. I honestly did not think I would watch this whole debate, but here we are, we're at the end, and we're gonna power through. I'm wearing the glasses because I just don't want my looks of despair, disgust, disdain, frustration, anxiety, all that kind of stuff, I don't want it to come through.
And so I can't really see with these glasses because they're a little bit polarized, but yeah, let's just do this and get it over with. By the way, my plans are I'm definitely gonna do the racial justice debate with Jason Giboney at some point, but I have a question for you.
Let me know in the comments section if you want me to do this. Do you want me to do the abortion one as well? That's the one with Scott Klusendorf and someone else. I have not seen either of those debates, so we'll do the same thing where we kind of live respond, react kind of thing.
So let me know if you want me to do the abortion one too. I'm definitely gonna do the racial justice one because that's my schtick, that's my lot in life. But if you want me to do the abortion one, let me know and I will do that one as well if we get enough interest.
So let's let Dr. McLaughlin complete her thought here.
Here we go. Across all these areas, we won't be falling into the mistake of I think it's a profound mistake of grouping together racial difference and love across racial difference with affirming same sex marriage and transgender identity.
Alright guys, remind me before we finish this video, I need to get back to that point. She said we should avoid the danger, the risk of lumping together racial justice and racial love with same sex marriage and transgenderism, whatever.
I gotta take these glasses off. I can't do it. I can't do it. I'm just gonna have to deal with my looks of disdain. So remind me. Make sure you remind me.
We have about three minutes left and I want to ask both of you the same question and hopefully we can do it in three minutes. So obviously guarding the church is something that we are called to do. Paul tells the Galatians to do it.
He exhorts Timothy, guard the flock, watch what's going on, protect ourselves. But then in our culture, you also hear it's a slippery slope, which is in itself a logical fallacy, I know. But how do we thread this needle of really guarding ourselves, our churches as church leaders, but not giving in to this fearful, slippery slope mentality?
Sean, I'll start with you.
Okay, this is actually a perfect question for him to ask because it actually has everything to do with what I just asked you to remind me about. So I'm gonna let these guys talk. There's only three minutes left.
He guaranteed it. And then I'm gonna talk about what I want to talk about because I smell a rat. That's all I'm gonna say. I smell a rat. I'm really glad you did.
The same way we've been doing it for 2 ,000 years, you know. I know it feels like one of my favorite men in black, you guys know what I'm talking about, classic cinema. Agent J and Agent K are talking and Will Smith, he's one of them.
I don't remember if he's J or K. And he is freaking out because, you know, the ship is coming and he's gonna destroy, it's gonna destroy everyone. And we gotta go. And Tommy Lee Jones, he's the old, you know, grizzled veteran.
And he just sort of slowly walking towards the car, gonna get his gun. It's not a big deal. And Will Smith just goes, what are you doing? And he just goes, the end has always come. There's always a new threat.
There's always the boogeyman. There's always, you know, the worship of Baal and Gnosticism and Arianism and Roman Catholicism and Wokeism. And there's always something there. And the answer to that is the same as it always been.
Just preach Christ and Christ crucified and do it well in the context of a local church where we take evangelism and discipleship seriously. Where we gather around the word and we make the gospel central in all things.
And we pray to God for wisdom to not just understand the theology of the gospel. But to be able to apply it in a very confusing world corrupted by sin. Okay, Sean, good answer.
And well said. Here's the thing though. So absolutely, we do this the exact same way we've always done it. What's important is the way the scripture tells us to do it. So it's not just tradition for tradition's sake.
It's tradition, hopefully, that comports with the scripture. And if it doesn't, we discard it and we change our tactics. We change our plans and all of that. So that's right. We ought to know. We ought to be confident in our fight that God is on our side.
If God is for us, who can be against us? And so we preach the word of God. We preach the gospel. No question about it. But then we also practice our faith, our religion, according to what God has said we do.
And so we meet for the assembly on Sundays. And we take the Lord's Supper. And we disciple, which means discipline in other words. So we church discipline. And we do the things that Paul says to contend for the faith.
To not even eat with someone who names the name of Christ. But she's over here practicing and proud of his or her sin. We do all those things. We do what the scripture tells us to do. And that is sufficient.
And the thing is, though, that if we look through church history, using his men in black example. We've got one agent who's been here before and he's calm. But he's in the fight. He's in the fight, but he's calm.
He's faced this down before and he knows exactly what to do. And then we've got the agent who's getting after it, right? He's running around. He's running and gunning. He's making things happen. He's cracking skulls.
If we look through the history of the church in the Old Testament. And I'm assuming the New Testament was like this as well. And in the New Testament times, we see that there's different kinds of warriors.
There's different kinds of fighters. And so in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, I'm quite fond of this example. Ezra is a very different person than Nehemiah. But they're fighting the same fight. And they're zealous for the Lord.
And they're on the Lord's side. And they're after the same things. But they're fighting very differently. Ezra's one way and he's very studious and academic. And he's a little bit more, I would say, on the lament and kind of somber emotional state.
And then Nehemiah is like, he's cracking skulls. He's angry. He's pulling people's beards out. He's beating them. And it's like they're saying the same stuff. Hey, stop marrying foreign women. But Nehemiah is doing something about it in a physical sense.
And Ezra is more of the lament. And he's more of, and he's still doing something about it too, but in a different way. They're both in the fight. And so let's not confuse this example with not being in the fight.
Or worse, saying that there isn't a fight. You see, that's very different. Because Ezra and Nehemiah both were upset that the Israelites were marrying foreign women. They knew that was an affront to God.
God said no. They're doing it anyway. They were both in the fight. They were in the fight in different ways. What we have now are legions of men that are saying there is no problem. In fact, that's what's kind of happening here in this debate.
There is no debate. It's just a minor shade of different. That's very different. That's very different. And so I want to yes and amen pretty much all of what he said. But I don't want to give the impression though that it's okay to be like, well, you know.
Because see, even Agent K, he was in the fight. He was doing the things. He just wasn't worried. And so that's a good thing to not be worried in any case. So good answer, Sean. He gets back some of the credit you lost in the last episode.
Let's see what Rebecca has to say. I guess we have to. You know what? I'm putting the glasses back on. It's very men in black-esque actually. Very apropos. All right. Let's go.
Rebecca, how would you answer that? I agree with much of what Sean said. I think preaching the scriptures and proclaiming the gospel is at the heart of this. And I think I would go back to that twofold that we Christians should be really good at, of repenting and believing.
And I think that will help, especially the rising generation. My sense is that there are a lot of younger folks today who've been raised in the church and have been profoundly disappointed by what they see, and I don't disagree, what they see as the failure of repentance and lamentation when it comes to their elders in the church around race.
And so that's precipitating them leaving. And I can kind of understand where that is.
If you just lamented more, we would have more believers. But they're leaving the faith because you didn't lament enough. Rebecca, what is lamenting? You just didn't. You've got to do it. You've got to lament.
How do we do it? We've done it before. Haven't we done it enough? You need to lament more until more people come to the church. Because as we know, the church growth strategy is to lament. Lament and repent and believe.
Believe what?
Just lament some more. ...comes from. So I think we need to get into a place where we are...
People don't believe the gospel, not because they love their sin, but because they see the hypocrisy, hypocrisy of their parents, and they haven't lamented humbly. That's more New Zealand accent, I don't know.
Sorry for New Zealand, I didn't mean to insult you.
Preaching and teaching truth when it comes to race. And preaching and teaching truth when it comes to sexuality and gender. Recognising actually the ways in which we Christians have also sinned in our treatment of gay and lesbian people outside the church and in our failure to love.
You've got to get that one in there.
The slippery slope fallacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've actually sinned against the LGBT. How did we sin against them? Well, because we said that they were gay. How did we sin against transgender? We called them cross-dressers.
I mean, how much more sinful can you be?
Brothers and sisters within the church, I think we can and should do that.
All the gay people in the church who have sinned against them, lament about it.
Spoiler alert, it doesn't call us to hateful treatment of anybody. You know, Jesus calls us to love even our enemies. So I think having a humble, loving, repentant, personally repentant approach to all of these things.
Yeah, you know how you love your enemies?
I just preached a sermon on this. You know how you love your enemies? You treat them according to the law of God. Just a quick edit here. You know, if you want to love your gay neighbor or your cross-dressing neighbor or whatever, it's very simple on how to do it.
Like, we don't have to conjure up affections for homosexuals if they don't come naturally. Like, that's impossible. You can't just force yourself to feel an emotional connection to somebody. That's just not how it works.
But in the scriptures, the way to love your neighbor as yourself is to treat your neighbor according to the law of God. Oftentimes, affections follow. But at the very least, you treat them according to the law of God.
And God has not left us in the lurch on what homosexuality is and how we should treat it in civil society. I mean, the scripture is quite clear. It's an abomination before God to lie with a man the way you would with a woman.
It's an abomination. In fact, in the state of Israel, that was a death penalty offense along with adultery and rape and that kind of stuff. And so even if you don't want to go full theocracy, which I don't know why you wouldn't, but even if you don't, you definitely should have laws on the books discouraging homosexual relationships and public homosexuality, sodomy.
There definitely shouldn't be any marriage or anything like that. You definitely shouldn't be promoting homosexual lifestyles in school or teaching them as if they're completely legitimate, cross-dressing, trannies, all this kind of stuff.
This is not things that you should affirm as a Christian if you're going to love your gay and lesbian and cross-dressing neighbor. You shouldn't placate them by pronoun hospitality, buying into their fantasy.
There should be no normalization of this whatsoever. They should be made to feel like there is something wrong with them because there definitively is. And so anything that Big Eva wants you to do that almost softens it, that makes it more normal, that makes, well, there's really nothing that wrong with you.
By the way, I mean, gluttony is a sin too. Like any of that kind of stuff is hating your neighbor, not loving your neighbor. But you see, Rebecca McLaughlin and Big Eva in general, again, they're not really interested in loving their neighbor as themselves.
What they're interested in is appearing like they're loving their neighbor as themselves. And it's the same thing with this transgender, you know, homosexuality stuff. If you really love your neighbor as yourself, you would treat them according to the law of God.
This is the reality, right, because this is the big scam. It's like, and we're going to get back to this in a minute. It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm also worried about the transgender, but by the way, while we're on the subject, we've mistreated them too.
And it's like, okay, so this is Slippery slope, by the way, is not a fallacy. It may be an argumentation it is, but slippery slope is what happens. That's just projecting into the future of what's likely to happen if you accept the wrong premises in the present.
This is just standard, like we can see two steps ahead. Like we're not idiots. We don't only see what's in front of us. We see what's a few steps down the road. That'd be like walking on a mountain and looking down only at the path where you don't
You're not looking ahead of the path. You're looking right where your feet are and just walking and expecting not to fall off the cliff. Like that's not how you do it, right? Yes, you got to know where your feet are, obviously, but you also got to look ahead to make sure you don't put yourself in a situation that's dangerous.
That's not a fallacy.
That's just the facts. Well, we make much of Jesus and little of ourselves is going to be the best way to guard the church.
Well, I'm thankful for both of you. I really am. The ways that you have modeled gospel centrality and charitability over something that is dividing the church all over the United States right now. So my prayer is that this will be helpful for people watching that conversations inside local churches and families would look more like this and less like some of the stuff that we see on Twitter.
So thank you both for your time and your devotion to the things that are most important.
Yeah, the only way this can be helpful is an example of what this is not about. This woke church debate is not about any of this. This debate has done nothing but muddy the waters. Instead of clarifying the differences, all it did was mix it all up and say, well, we're all Christians after all, and so we're on the same team and all of that.
I think that the, yeah, let me say this. I'm trying to think of how to say this in a good way. I almost said winsome. So this debate was set up for Rebecca to knock it out of the park, and they picked Rebecca very carefully because she's same-sex attracted, self-admittedly.
And so if you remember how Sean started, right, the whole debate, is woke church a stepping stone to theological compromise? We've said it before. That shouldn't be the debate. The debate is, really, is woke church theological compromise, not the stepping stone thing, right?
And because of the way they titled this debate, Sean took the approach of saying, well, I'm worried about the woke church, and I'm concerned about some of the stuff that I see as far as repenting of the sins of white people.
And black people never have to do that, of course, but side issue, side issue. Blacks don't have to repent. So repenting of the sins of your race, I'm concerned about that. I'm worried about some of the things.
But the big problem is, this is the crux of his argument, is that a lot of the stuff with Black Lives Matter goes hand-in-hand with transgenders and same-sex marriage and some of that. And so I'm concerned that it can lead to acceptance of some of the tranny stuff and the same-sex marriage stuff and all that kind of thing.
So that's how Sean set up the pins, right? He set up the pins in a very particular way. And I'm not saying anything, but I am saying that that very particular way he set up the pins, which is highly unusual.
That's really not the first thing that most of us think when we think of the woke church. We think of Eric Mason and the we think of that, right? But he set up those pins in a very particular way. And it just so happened to be the way that Rebecca, in her opening statement, knocked out of the freaking park.
And because of who she is, can even knock it out of the park even more because she then got up, if you remember, in her opening statement and said, she's same-sex attracted. So if you can trust her, because if there's any issue that she would be tempted to be liberal on, it would be the same-sex attraction stuff and the tranny stuff and stuff like that.
But she rejects that. She rejects that. Although in the end, she's like, oh, yeah, but we also mistreat them too. So she rejects that. But she's for the race stuff. And so the very particular way that Sean set up the pins, Rebecca was very particularly qualified and ready and prepared remarks to knock those pins over.
She knocked them out of the park. And if you had no idea what woke was, like if you had no context, you came into this, and the last two years was a race from your databanks. I mean, put on your put on your sunglasses here because we don't want the men in black to erase our minds here.
You know, maybe that's why he referenced men in black. I don't know. But if you had the little thing and you didn't have the sunglasses on, your mind was wiped from two years ago. And you came into this debate about what woke was.
Right. You could be fooled by what Rebecca just said. It's a really about just acknowledging the racial justice of the past. And you don't have to worry about the transgender stuff because I'm against that, too.
And it's like it's like I'm not saying anything, but this all seemed very it's suspicious. It's suspicious is what it is. I'm not saying anything, but I'm just saying I just find it very, very suspicious.
Now, let me just say this to Sean. Sean, I've said a lot of things in these seven videos about this debate. And, Sean, I've heard, and I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that you don't feel like you did that well in this debate.
And I got to say, man, like, look, I don't think you did that bad in some of the parts of this debate. But I think that there's a fatal flaw to a lot of the premises that you've accepted. And it's and it's evident in that closing little statement you made there.
It's evident in so many of the things that you said off the cuff about those of you, those of us on the right who are doing it wrong and stuff like that. And you've got this. You've been handicapped by thinking that there are laws in the scripture that actually aren't there.
Some of your friends have said the tone is always talked about in the Bible. It's the fruit of the spirit. And I'm like, OK, so I know about the fruit of the spirit, too. And the same man who talked about the fruit of the spirit said things in his time that let's just be honest, Sean, you would have a problem with if it was said today.
A lot of your friends would have a problem. Look, if your standard and I'm not saying this is your standard, Sean, but I think that you've imbibed this from a lot of your friends that you kind of you kind of like we're a little bit braggy.
Oh, these are my friends. I had lunch with them. He's not woke. Stuff like that. Like these guys. Right. They've created this standard that Paul would not meet, that Nehemiah would not meet, that Jesus himself would not meet.
And so if your standard is something that Jesus wouldn't meet, chuck that standard in the garbage bin and let's get to work. Look, you don't need to be a Nehemiah, Sean. Nobody says you do. But enough of this nonsense that the only way to go is to be an Ezra.
That's the only godly way. That's not true. That's not true because Ezra is commended in the scripture. And so is Nehemiah for their zeal for the Lord. And so if you really are fighting tooth and nail, which I don't believe because you're sitting here telling me that Tim Keller like like the way you treated the Tim Keller question, Sean, it kind of makes me feel like you don't get it.
But I think you do. I think you do. I think that was an example of you trying to be winsome. Because let's face it, Sean. Even if you don't think Tim Keller's woke, you know full well that there is plenty of reasons why people like me think he is woke and think he's dangerous.
It deserves a little bit more respect than don't be silly. Are you crazy? It's like as if we're making all this stuff up. It's like, oh, God, you're gaslighting us, man. And we don't buy it anymore. You know what I mean?
There was a time when I would have been sensitive to some of this stuff. Maybe I am wrong. No, you're gaslighting us. And we know it. And we've documented it many times over. Another thing he said was, you know, Southeastern has a critical race theory in their curriculum.
They do definitively. We've documented it. Guys, stop being silly. Sean, you got to throw this fake standard out. I'm not saying throw out the fruit of the spirit, obviously. Obviously. None of us are, man.
But this desire to be winsome caused you to look foolish in this debate, Sean. Caused you to not say things that you needed to say. And I know that there are people in that audience, Sean, in that audience, the audience here, caused people in that audience to be like, what is this?
Caused people in that audience to be like, one of them like, Sean, wake up. What are you saying? What are you doing? You know this. Sean, if you want to make yourself look like a fool, like you said that in the beginning, it's like, make myself look like a fool or make yourself look stupid.
That's what you do best. Fine. But then stop representing our side in this debate, though, because you make it seem like none of us have done our homework. None of us have any reasons. We just woke up one day and decided that we're going to say everyone's woke that talks about race.
It's just, it's so obvious of a lie, Sean, that it just does all of us a disservice. This wasn't helpful. This was a disaster. This is the exact way to not have this debate, to avoid issues and for the conservatives to really kind of handicap themselves and not speak the truth and let Rebecca just kind of say whatever the heck she wants, the nonsense that she spewed.
She spewed so much nonsense here, Sean, and you just sat there with your legs crossed, looking down, ashamed of yourself, because you ought to be ashamed. You're ashamed of some of us. I'm ashamed of this performance.
I'm not ashamed of you in general, because you've done a lot of good things, man. I've seen your content. It's good. It's good. This was embarrassing, dude. This was embarrassing. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to criticize you for not winning the debate.
That's not what this is about. But you just, you just gave them everything. You gave them, you said, we don't have to do it this way. Let me just say it that way. You don't have to do it this way. You don't have to fight on these fake terms, man.
You don't have to do ministry with this fake standard that Jesus wouldn't meet. God, you don't have to be nicer than Jesus. You can't be nicer than Jesus, by the way, in any case. That's all I have to say.
Honestly, like, I had low expectations for this debate. Somehow, Gospel Coalition managed to even dig a little deeper. I can't believe it. I'm going to assume that the Justin Gibney one is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
So that way I can't possibly have my expectations undermined. In any case, I hope you found this video helpful. If you like this series, let me know. If you want to do the abortion debate, let me know that one as well.
I have not seen it. But if you think it'd be helpful, I'd like to do whatever's helpful. God bless.
