Interview: Pastoring a Calvinistic Church

Welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist. Today is our weekend edition where we every week come together and interview a different person. And today we're going to be interviewing Austin Tucker from Grace Point Church.

And where is Grace Point Church, Austin? We're located in Summerfield. Okay. We're right outside the villages. Okay. Can you give us your web address so if people want to look up your sermons? We're online at Grace Point.

That's one word spelled for me. G-R-A-C-E-P-O-I-N-T-E dot TV as in television. Don't ask me why I picked dot TV. It was stupid and I wish I wouldn't have. Well, there's more options for dot TV.

I know that. I've looked up different, the different suffixes give us more options. So that's cool. And you've been there since 2008, correct? Yes, sir. And you have a World's Best Boss mug I just saw came up.

That is your... One of my teachers bought this for me this year and surprised me with it on my desk. And I'm a huge Office fan. You might want to edit that out. No, that's fine. I was going to say it's a Michael Scott mug.

I have my pastor's mug, but you have one too that you showed me earlier. So I'm going to sip out of my mug while you sip out of yours. Well, today we're going to be talking about the subject of being a minister and being a Calvinistic minister.

Becoming a Calvinist Through Scripture

Being Calvinist ministers is not always the easiest thing in the world to do. Sometimes it can be a difficult road to go down. And I know that especially early in my ministry, being reformed was something that a lot of people didn't understand.

They'd never heard of it. When they heard me preach, a lot of times it was fine because it was just right out of the Bible. But when I would say words like election or predestination or when I would speak of the sovereignty of God, I would see the bristles come up.

I would see people sort of begin to scratch their heads. And there were a few people early on that really took great issue with what I was saying. So that's what I wanted to talk to you a little bit about today as a minister who would identify with the reformed teaching on the doctrines of grace.

I wanted to ask you first, how did you become a Calvinist? When did that happen? And do you identify yourself as a Calvinist? Maybe I shouldn't assume that. I do identify as a Calvinist. And I came from an independent fundamentalist Baptist background where I was told Calvinism was a four-letter word.

And I was told Calvinists don't sow in. Calvinists don't A, B, and C. And pretty much everything was in the realm of hyper-Calvinism, what you would call. And honestly, the road to Calvinism was interesting for me because my pastor set me down.

When I left to pastor my first church in 2004, my pastor set me down and gave me a list of 20 things that I shouldn't do. And on the top of that list was he said, Never preach through books of the Bible.

You'll bore them to death. He said, Always be taught. Wow. And, of course, I ended up taking my pulpit, and I find out that I have a that's my niche. My niche is exegetical preaching through books. I just love it.

And so I started doing it. And first I picked Ephesians. And by the time I got done preaching through Ephesians, you can listen to those old sermons. And I would say stuff like this, God's ordained all things, but we have free will.

I don't understand this. And I would say that in my sermons. And God did a slow I was not influenced by any outside source. It was really a natural progression. And it was about four years of saying stuff like that until one day I woke up and went, I'm a Calvinist.

I'm a Calvinist. Well, I tell you what. Do you still have that list of 20 things that you shouldn't do? I do, actually. That would be great for a future episode, just talking about those 20 things. Yeah.

The first one being don't preach through books of the Bible. That's funny. That's funny. Yep. Well, and that's cool too, that it really was the Scripture that brought you to that understanding of the doctrine of grace.

And what was it and again, you kind of just answered this, but I'm going to ask it maybe a little bit more specific. Do you remember any specific passages that convinced you that really you said there's just no other way to understand this?

Yeah, it started in Ephesians. Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2. Then at a certain point I dedicated myself to read the Bible. And I've had a lot of people say this to me, even my own church. It's kind of like once they've seen the sovereign hand of God, they all of a sudden start seeing it on every page of the Bible.

And I started reading through the Gospels and through John, and John will slap you in the face with it. And then the Book of Romans, and then, of course, that progressed later on to my entire theology changing because if the Bible's my sole authority, I start to question everything in the lens of the Bible.

And so, yeah, it was mostly Ephesians, and then probably John would have been second. But I think it's a lot for a lot of people who are Calvinistic. Amen. Amen. Yeah, Ephesians 1 is hard to get past.

It really is. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you did say earlier that you didn't have outside sources, but once you sort of settled in that you were feeling like you had joined the Calvinistic camp, were there any teachers at that point who were mentoring you from afar?

I know like for me, R .C. Sproul, I always say was the greatest. I probably met him three times because he does live near here, or he did when he was alive. But I only saw him like three times in my life.

But I still consider him to be a mentor from afar because so much of his writing, so much of his preaching, and I still, if I just want to rest and listen to the word today being preached, I just turn on R .C. Sproul.

I know I'm going to get fed. And so who was that for you? Honestly, at first it was John Piper. John Piper was one of my very first influences, and through him I learned about MacArthur, and I learned about Sproul, and I learned about Doug Wilson, and I learned about through him I learned about all the other guys, including what's his name?

That's bad. Mark Driscoll. Oh, I read everything that man wrote. But I think we tend to gravitate towards personalities that we can identify with a little bit, and I think that's one of the reasons why I just I loved Piper.

He has that personality I really like to attach to him. I think because I was raised in independent fundamentalism, and it's such a my way or the highway, very mean-spirited type leadership, I just it was nice seeing that loving type pastor.

And I'm just being honest. It wasn't totally intellectual. It was somewhat also an attraction to somebody who came off as a loving pastor who's not forcing anything down anybody's throat. They say that John Piper is the gateway drug to Calvinism.

He is, yeah. Because he's so he is so winsome, and oftentimes this is the irony that I've recently seen because I go into Facebook groups and stuff that are reformed, and I find that there are people who were turned into Calvinists because of John Piper who now question whether John Piper is truly a Calvinist.

Yeah. I don't know if you've seen that. I don't know. What they say is he truly reformed, and that's the term. He may be a Calvinist, but is he really reformed? That is a great and I speak as a pastor, and I think you feel the same way.

There is a flood of immaturity in the reformed groups online. Absolutely. They want to anathematize everybody, and nobody's Calvinistic enough. And it's kind of like if you don't meet my gold standard, you're not truly reformed.

And whether it be the pedo versus the credos and all the arguments that happen in those Yeah, whether you sing the psalms or whatever. Yeah, yeah. It can be discouraging. I have a friend who he was on one of those groups, and I was asking him something that I had seen, and he goes, yeah, I had to leave the group.

He said, I just couldn't handle the immaturity. I couldn't handle everything's a bonfire. Everything's a dumpster fire. It can't just be, well, here's something I think. No, it's awful. So, yeah, I agree.

The groups have changed. The most popular group is probably the one you're talking about online. When I joined it, there was only 500 people in there, and they were Wookiee was the guy who monitored everything, and that was his nickname, and some people know who I'm talking about.

And it grew, and it became overran by Stage Cage Calvinist, which is, of course, a slang for people who want to set everything on fire. Yes, yeah. Yes, the dreaded cage stage. And, you know, I guess we've all been there in a sense.

It was you know, I was introduced to Reformed theology. I was introduced to Calvinism through a friend who then turned me on to the Scripture. He pointed out some things, and I began after I began to see these things in Scripture like you did, I began to read primarily Dr. James White, who was probably my most influential person.

And I've read everything. You know, you talk about people you've read everything, read everything by him, been to several of his debates, met him several times, and he's a blessing in my life. But, yeah, the, you know, the hatred and the vitriol and the immaturity that's out there is really sad.

And, you know, people get a lot people get a little bit of knowledge, and it sometimes makes them very dangerous. Knowledge puffs up. All right, well, moving I have a few other questions I'd like to ask.

Confessionally Reformed Baptist Identity

Is your church is Grace Point and that sounds like a Reformed name is Grace Point a confessionally Reformed church, or is it how would you define the church itself? Okay, so Grace Point is a 1833 New Hampshire Baptist Confession of Faith church.

Okay, okay. And the elders made that decision. I was here when I came to Grace Point, it was a dispensational pastor center, and we made the transition over the coming up here on 12 years to elders about seven, eight years ago.

So the church really just accepted the New Hampshire as its official confession probably about six, seven years ago. We chose the New Hampshire because of the freedom in it. We are our soteriological position is very much Calvinistic.

With that being said, I like the New Hampshire because it lays down the most important issues and allows freedom in the open-handed issues, if you will. And I don't really like that term of speech, but you know what I'm saying, the important things.

And it allows for our people to have freedom. And I love the 1689. I'm a huge fan of the 1689, but I feel like it dealt with a lot of areas that were secondary issues. And as the elders of the church, we wanted to deal with the main keep the main thing the main thing.

And the New Hampshire tends to focus on that. Yeah. We at our church, I actually taught through the 1644 confession, the first Baptist confession, but we're not technically confessional. We have a statement of faith that we wrote, but we're not technically we haven't adopted a confession as of yet.

That may change, but we haven't yet. Would you say do you think there are people in your church who either are opposed to your Calvinism or who are still wondering about it? Or do you think you pretty much have a universal acceptance of the doctrines of grace?

I would say that I don't have any open opposition. We did. Don't get me wrong. Sure. We used to have bad, almost angry opposition. But honestly, right now, not everybody would count themselves a Calvinist.

Not everybody would say they agree with all the doctrines of grace. But what everybody would say is, I love this church because they're faithful to the Bible. Amen. Amen. And that's where they're at. Cool.

Yeah, I would say I'm sure there are people in our church who would not want the label Calvinist, and I'm sure there are people in our church who wouldn't even really I don't want to say they wouldn't understand, but wouldn't be able to articulate what it all meant.

But they love the preaching. They love the Word. Everybody in the church knows I'm a Calvinist. Yeah. It's not a lie. Yeah, used to I was a little afraid to use the term, but now I'm sort of just I'm steering into the embankment.

If I go off the cliff, I'm going to do it. But this is Coffee with a Calvinist, so there's really no question. How about visitors when they come to your church? Do you feel like people come in sort of ignorant?

Do people come because they know you're a Calvinist? How does that ratio kind of do for you guys? Honestly, every couple months we have somebody who comes to our church because they found us on Founders.

Yep. Or they found me online and liked that we were confessional. The problem I'm having is and I'm speaking pastorally we have a lot of stagecagers. It's like, oh, I found a Calvinist church. And then they come, and they're expecting either a staunch 1689 style as some of the church, and they show up, and we're not that way.

We're Calvinist, but we're not there's a different structure to hardcore 1689 churches. Sure, yeah. I have a dear friend, and that's what he is. And when people come to that looking when they come to me looking for that, I say, you need to go there because that's what they are.

Yeah, I do the same thing. And I've had several people come, and when I find out what they're looking for, I'll often go, hey, Pastor Mike over at Olivet in Ocala, he's one of my best friends. That is an actual full 1689 church.

Their elders are that. And I'm not in competition with those brothers. I want them to be somewhere where they're healthy and where they grow. But most of our visitors, when they show up, it's either they love the fact that we're preaching through the Bible, or they don't.

We're it's a 45-minute sermon on average, and we're working through books of the Bible. Well, great. Amen. I know that we have a part of how we met was one of our church members, when they go out of town to see their relatives, they go to your church, and they really love it.

And they said it feels very much like ours. Just so you know, that's to me, I figure that's as good of a compliment as we could give one another. We probably we're similar in a lot of ways. So I appreciate that they have a place to go, a home away from home, as it were.

Relationships With Other Pastors

So how do you get along with other pastors, then? You mentioned Brother Mike. And for me, it's Brother Shane at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, who is the more confessional 1689 guy. But how about the other non-Calvinist pastors?

How are you doing with that? Here's the thing. I have a lot of really good friends that are Armenian. Yep. I do. I have some really close Armenian pastor friends. I have good friends on both sides. And again, this is a maturity thing because you get to some of these reform groups online, and it's like if you're not a Calvinist, you're condemning people to hell.

And I'm sitting there going, wait, I thought salvation was by grace through faith. I didn't know you had to be a theologian to go to heaven. But I have friends that are on the other side of the aisle that I have arguments and debates with, and it's healthy.

And I love talking to those guys. But my closest friends are all like-minded on the doctrines of grace, if I'm being honest. And I'm very blessed to have a lot of close friends that are doctrines of grace men.

Have you ever experienced other ministers who are not Calvinistic sort of treating you like the ten-headed dragon for that? I don't want to go too far in this online because I think it has a place. Growing up independent fundamentalist, I was an independent fundamental, King James only, dispensational.

My wife didn't own a pair of britches for seven and a half years. I came out of their seminary. And when I left those circles and became a Calvinist, those pastors for the most part disowned me. And some of these men were like father figures to me, and I love them.

And I think they still love me, but it's kind of personal. I know they have friends that are like me, but it was personal because I was one of their preacher boys. But I had a young man, I'll give you an example, had a young man visit our church this past year.

He showed up, and he lives an hour away, married. I actually led his wife to the Lord years and years ago. They grew up, they got married, and they visited the church. And it was a blessing to see him in the back with their babies.

And what are you doing here? And he told me, you know, we're looking for a church and this and that. And then he begins to tell me, you know, you have been gone from the church I grew up at. And I was a youth pastor seven and a half years.

I've been here for what, over 10 years, and I was there for seven years. So it's been like 17 years since the beginning. He said, you know, you were used as an example of somebody who falls away from the faith.

And the pastor said from the pulpit, you've got to be careful who you read and who you let influence you because this, you know. So he said, basically, you're used as an illustration all these years after you leave.

And we're talking about one of the largest independent fundamental churches here in this area. Wow. So. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. That's a difficult. You know, the thing is, the pastor's a great guy.

He preaches the gospel. I love him. I owe him a lot. He put me in the pulpit when I was 18 years old. You know, hired me on staff when I was 19 years old. And fundamentalists, we do things way too young.

Calvinism, Covenant Theology, and New Covenant Theology

Yeah. Yeah. Well, one last theological question, then we're going to move to a game because I like to try to make this a little fun. But one more. And this is a fun theological question. Even though a person might identify themselves as a Calvinist, that doesn't necessarily mean that they fall into any particular category when it comes to dispensational covenant or new covenant theology.

As we know, MacArthur is referred to as a Calvinist, but he is dispensational. Sproul, of course, was full covenantal. Covenant theology would be classically reformed that most people would refer to as classic reform.

So when it comes to dispensationalism, covenant theology, and new covenant theology, where would you place yourself? And do you think that that's a big deal when it comes to where guys are when it comes to being Calvinist?

It is a big deal, but it's not a deal breaker. And, again, our church is in 1833 New Hampshire, which gives freedom. You can be a leaky dispensationalist as John MacArthur is and fit in our church. Me, personally, I'm closest to a 1689 Federalist.

So I'm covenantal, but I have some new covenant meanings, and I'm still working through them. Yeah, and we've had that conversation off camera. And you and I both, I think, would have some of the same issues with the covenantalism and why we would lean new covenant.

But, yeah, absolutely. Awesome. All right. Well, we are going to play my game. Those who have watched and you have watched, this is our third interview that we've done. You have seen me lose twice. I have been a fantastic loser.

But today, I'm going to be a gracious winner because I'm not going to lose again. But Austin's going to try to win. And here's how the game rolls. It's very simple. As pastors, one of the things that happens is we quote a lot of Scripture and we read a lot of Scripture.

But oftentimes, we can't quote for book and verse. We can't give the location because we have so much Scripture in our minds. So what this is is a Scripture memory game, but you have to give chapter and verse to go with it.

And you can quote it in whatever translation you want. You said you were a King James guy, so you probably will quote mostly in King James. And the way it works is when I hit this little button, we have 15 seconds to give a Bible verse.

And then when the next person gives their Bible verse, it will click. And as soon as somebody just starts looking into the clouds and can't figure out where to go next, within 15 seconds, this will make a funny noise, and that will let us know who is the winner.

So are you ready for this challenge, Pastor Tucker? Who's going first? I'll go first. I'll hit the button. I'll say a Bible verse. And it's probably going to be the easiest one in the world, but I'm just going to say it to get us rolling.

And then I hit the button. When I'm done, I hit the button. And then when you're done, I hit the button. No repeat verses. No repeat verses. Yeah, we got to keep it. Can't just repeat each other. Okay, so are you ready?

Yeah. Okay. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1 .1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1 .1. And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the face of the waters, and the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep.

Genesis 1 .2. Amos 3 .3. Can two walk together except they be agreed? For God to love the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3 .16. For God came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. John 3 .17. Right? For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3 .23.

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1 .5. For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2 .8. All things work together for good to them that love the Lord, to them that are called according to his purpose. Romans 8 .28. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6 .23. As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one. Romans 3 .10. All things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. Romans 8 .28.

I said that one already. Oh, did you really? Oh, okay. All the Father gives me will come to me and whosoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6 .37. No one can come to me unless the Father who called me grants it to him.

Oh no, unless the Father who called me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6 .44. Um, I know there's more in there. Give me a second.

I know. It's really hard. Um. Oh, I got the win. Finally.

Now, it's going to come to me because I know I know a bunch more. It's just I started drawing the blank. I feel bad because I feel like I cheated to get the win because I repeated one. I didn't realize you had already given that one.

I guess I wasn't listening closely enough. So, we may have to call that a draw. We'll let the audience decide if that was a draw. Okay, a couple of final questions and then I'm going to ask you to close us with a short prayer.

Spider on the Desk and Favorite Bible Teachers

Okay, well, let me ask. First of all, have you seen any spiders on your desk? I forgot the words. What was it? Oh, dadgum, there's a spider.

Never get under what God has put over you, then you'll never be over what God wants to put under you. There's a dadgum spider. Woo.

Woo. I'm going to throw that video in. That's going to be in the interview. I'm going to throw that video in. He's like, oh my goodness, Church, look, I smashed a spider with my Bible.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Church, you just saw me. Look, I just killed a spider with my Bible.

Yes, and, yeah. Look right here, Church. Who's your favorite living Bible teacher and your favorite dead Bible teacher? Well, it would be, my favorite dead would be R .C. Sproul now. Okay. He, I just, I listen, I can go back and listen to him over and over.

My favorite living is probably James White. That has been growing on me ever since I picked up his King James Only controversy like six, seven years ago. I think we just became best friends. Did we just become best friends?

Yep. I think we just became best friends. Okay, very cool. Very cool. Well, I do like to close out these interviews with a short prayer. I want to, if you would, pray for our individual churches as we begin to look forward to going back to worship.

I know you guys are doing an outside service this Sunday. Is that correct? We are going inside. You are? Amen. Excellent. Yeah. Well, let's pray for, I'll have you pray for our churches and then we'll close.

And your sovereign grace, right? Yep. Sovereign grace, family, church. Yep. Let's go ahead. Lord, I believe with all my heart you're sovereign. You're on your throne. Lord, we rejoice. We rejoice that you have given us your word.

We rejoice in the Holy Spirit. Lord, you have blessed us beyond blessings. God, you are worthy of praise simply for who you are. God, I pray, Lord, this Sunday as we gather back together, Lord, that you start building the hunger of the saints to be with one another.

And, Lord, may we gather around your word and celebrate and worship you together. Lord, I pray for safety and for wisdom for the elders of the churches. Lord, for sovereign grace from grace point. Lord, that you'd help us to be wise in our approach.

And, Lord, that you would help us to stay focused on that which is important. God, do your perfect work. Lord, we love you. We praise you. We thank you. And just want to pray. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you, Austin, for being with me today.

I really appreciate it. And I appreciate all of you who have chosen to be with us and watch this interview. Thank you for continuing to support Coffee with a Calvinist. We have a daily Bible reading program that we do.

And then each weekend we try to have these interviews as an extra bit of encouragement throughout your week. May God bless you and may God continue to help us to grow in his word. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to Coffee with a Calvinist.

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