January 5, 2023 Show with Nan, on “A Chinese Atheist Pursuing an Acting Career in the United States Finds Eternal Life in Jesus Christ”

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fifth day of January 2023.

And I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today. She is only going to be referred to as Nan, that's

N -A -N, and the reason for that should be self -explanatory once I give you her details.

She's an acting coach helping students audition for American and British drama schools, and she's addressing her testimony,

A Chinese Atheist Pursuing an Acting Career in the United States Finds Eternal Life in Christ Jesus.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Nan. Hello, everyone.

Hello, Chris. It's my pleasure to be here. And, well, let's go right into your story,

Nan. In fact, let me first give our listeners our email address. If you would like to join us with a question of your own for Nan, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

I would also urge you to text or email or call all that you know who may be

Chinese immigrants to this country, or perhaps they're in other parts of the world, that you want to listen to this live broadcast, and perhaps also those who are evangelizing

Chinese friends and loved ones, or perhaps just the Chinese in general. They may have a ministry outreach to the

Chinese. Well, have them tune into this program because I think they will find it quite fascinating and edifying.

And, in fact, tell everyone you know who is an atheist to listen in, or if they are ministering to atheists as well.

But, Nan, tell us about your life in China, as far back as you can remember, being raised as a child there.

Sure. So, I grew up in a small town in the middle part of China, and my parents, they are

Communist Party members, and our life was quite good.

I think that's one of the reasons I never really questioned about God's existence, and it worked quite okay until I came to the

U .S. Well, I know that you have identified yourself prior to coming to Christ as an atheist.

This is something that you were firmly convinced of before coming to Christ.

Tell us more about the mindset of atheism that you had in your upbringing and in your general life in China, and even coming to here initially.

So, I was educated to be a hard worker, to have good virtue, and be kind to people, and we have a lot of Chinese, Asian philosophy, teaches us to be so as well, and it's kind of how we teach ourselves, teach our children to be, and it worked well for some part of when we are thinking about who we want to be, even though it doesn't really explain where we come from and where we will be after we die.

But for the current life, Chinese philosophy kind of makes sense, and I was quite welcomed and popular by having good personality and good virtue, so I didn't really question why,

I didn't question about God's existence, and it was fine that I live a life without God.

Now, it's interesting that you mentioned virtue being a part of your life.

As an atheist, did it ever occur to you, as Christian apologists often say to atheists when they're having conversations or debates, that an atheist really has no background or foundation or basis to develop an understanding of what is virtue, what is right, what is wrong, what is morality, what is immorality, because if you believe we are just evolved from pond scum and that there is no perfect, righteous, holy, eternal creator, and there is no inerrant scripture or inerrant guide to introduce those living on this planet to what is right and wrong, that an atheist really has no business being critical of what anybody else thinks about that issue of what is right and what is wrong.

Did that ever occur to you? I know. Now, because I have this

Christian mentality, I would think, okay, my previous thinking about good virtue didn't bear closer analysis.

But back then, because, you know, the surrounding people who were around me, and also the way

I was taught in school, at home, in the society, were all like that.

Like, good virtue means you do good things, not like checking my real heart.

So I wouldn't go that far away to say, okay, do I really know what is good virtue or not?

If that makes sense. Yes. And you have said that you were content not believing in God for a period of your life, perhaps the majority of it, because you are a young woman.

Yeah. When did that begin to change? When did your curiosity and perhaps your conscience begin to gnaw at you?

Yeah, I like the word conscience. So as an atheist,

I kind of gave myself a meaning of living a life is to make a difference.

So I thought, okay, why am I living this life?

Because I want to do something for the world. So when I die, at least I did something.

That was the kind of goal for my life. And I thought theater was a way for me to achieve that.

So I came to the U .S. I started to have acting training in school.

And the first year at school, at drama school, what struck me was that I think drama education should really humble us so that we can have compassion for anyone, even for the cleaner, the beggar, anyone.

But somehow acting training, I felt like so many people

I saw, acting training makes us become more, I wouldn't, the snobbish word sounds very harsh, but more like, okay,

I'm doing this because I want to do acting. It kind of loses the connection with the real people and the real world.

And I started to question why it became like this. Because my intention of doing acting is to be more grounded to life, to people.

However, while I was doing that, I was off. And I see a lot of people were off.

Even the whole industry was off. So that kind of gave some, like, opened a crack over there.

And also, I worked very hard, and I still didn't achieve what

I wanted to achieve. So there was a huge sense of failure, disappointment for myself.

And I thought, as long as I work hard, so I could literally not go to sleep and kept analyzing my script, practicing my acting.

I thought this is the way I can become better. But I found after a long period of trying,

I felt that way of thinking of myself and work didn't offer me a way out.

No matter how hard I try, I can drive myself crazy, but there's no way out.

And I'm thinking, okay, am I going to live a life like this forever? And am I going to teach my children to be like this?

If being successful is the goal for our life, that's a tragedy.

Yes, amen. So that kind of added that crack a little wider.

Oh, and also, the way I talk about having good virtue and working hard, that made me live a good life in China, didn't help me fit in American culture.

So people are kind of using another system to judge people.

So what I brought from China didn't work anymore when I was in the

U .S. So that confused me as well. It's like my old self is not working well in the

U .S. And I'm trying to find a new way. So I went to the club with my fellow actors.

I tried to live a life they do, because I thought I was too healthy to be an actress.

So I tried to pick up their way, which I think helped me become normal.

Then I felt I was losing myself. So then I was kind of stuck. Going back to my old self didn't work.

But becoming who they are, becoming what other people are, didn't work as well.

So I kind of got an identity crisis. I know a teenager probably would have that crisis.

But it just happened to me in my 20s as well.

I got this crisis. Yeah. Now what did you mean by you were too healthy to be an actor?

What does that mean? Because even in acting class, sometimes we need to use our sense of memory.

And also for modern, if you are familiar with a lot of modern script, modern drama, it's always so dark.

It's not about kind of normal people's life. It's all about twisted personality, family story.

And I read many scripts, which

I mentally couldn't really understand, let alone to act it.

So I thought, oh, because my life, my personal life was too healthy. I couldn't understand messy people's life.

So I, yeah. I know it sounds silly. Well, you'd never understand my life because I'm quite a messy individual.

But going back to China again, what was your concept of Christianity?

Had you ever met genuine Bible -believing Christians? Had you heard about it somewhere in some form of media or literature?

How did you become aware of Christianity? And what were your thoughts on it?

Growing up in my hometown, there was a kind of abandoned church building.

I think I only ran into once. And it felt a little bit—that building was old, dark.

So I think I ran out quickly, and I never went back to that building.

And then after I went to other city for my high school, for my college,

I think I went maybe several times while I was in college. My American teacher took us, took some of the students to the church.

So I went there, but I was just kind of—I was more curious about who they are.

But I never really—I never really heard about the word.

So it never really touched my heart at all until I came to the

U .S. I went to a church, the Liberty Church. And I think at that time,

I started to really get the word into my mind, really to think about, ponder about the word.

And in China, I didn't have someone

I know personally who are genuine Christians. Oh, I think—oh, there was one,

I think. Yeah, one was in Toastmasters. It's a speech club.

Oh, yeah, they have that here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the town where I'm broadcasting this program from.

I went to one meeting of theirs. Yeah, so I think we have—there is a brother.

He talked some about Christian energy to me, but still it didn't get into my heart.

Now, what is it like in China in regard to the restriction of or the freedom of personal belief in anything that would be considered religious, spiritual?

Are there certain forms of Christianity that the government tolerates because it does not challenge anything about their ideology?

Yeah, so right now in my hometown, every time now when I go back home, I would attend the church in my town, and that church is actually sponsored by our government.

So that church is—well, you can see it says, Love your country on the wall.

So that one is registered and is open for public. And after 2018, we have new regulation.

I think family church was kind of in a gray area before, but after that regulation, family church is regarded as illegal.

And after COVID, because all the church went online, so new regulation comes as well, like to supervise the online sermon as well.

So I'm assuming by what you said that you return to this day for visits to China.

And because from what I could remember from your testimony, you didn't start attending a church until you came here to the

United States. But now you're talking about this government -run church that you visit in your hometown.

So you return to China on occasion? I was in the

U .S. last time from 2014 to 2018. So I was here for four years, and that's when

I really knew God and accepted God.

And after that, I went back to China for four years, and now I come back.

I came back last year in August. Now when you return to China as a reborn believer in Christ, how did you react to this state -run church?

Did they have the true gospel? Did they just speak a political message that was appeasing to the government?

What was going on in that worship service, if even you could call it that?

I have no idea what these churches are like there. Yeah, so the church in my hometown, they would choose a part of Bible, and they make a

PPT. I think probably they need to submit their

PPT, their presentation to the government first to let them know what they are going to do for this week.

And what is PPT? I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. PPT is a presentation. Okay. Yeah, the

Microsoft presentation. I think they were quite biblical.

They were talking about the Bible verses. They didn't mention a very sensitive topic, like, oh,

Jesus will come back soon, this kind of area. But more like, okay, we need to love people,

Bible said something, or we need to rely on the

Lord, so they will give Bible verses as well. So even though they are sponsored by government, I still think the church in my hometown, they were doing fine following the

Bible. Now, do you know why a communist nation, a communist dictatorship like China, would even desire to have churches that they themselves run?

Is it to offer enough freedom to the people so that they don't overtly rebel?

Or what is the reasoning? Do you know what is the reasoning? Yeah, yeah. In my opinion,

I think there are at least two reasons. The first one is they know they couldn't remove all the

Christians. Like, I think even at a very early time, there were so many

Christians start to speak up, and they knew they couldn't remove all of them.

So instead of trying to take them away, why not offer a place which are sponsored by the government, but also supervised by them to let them to worship over there?

And the other reason, I think they probably, they know we are not, we wouldn't do something harm for the most of the part for them.

And I think they know Christianity are actually trying to have, like they teach

Christianity to teach people to be good. So at this part, I think they know. And also, you know, by the constitution, it says we have freedom to believe in any religion.

Really? In China, they have that in their constitution? In our constitution, yes, we have freedom to believe in any religion.

That's why Buddhism is allowed as well in China. Was this always the case after the communist control of China took place?

I think so. I think since the beginning of the Republic of China was founded in 1949, by constitution, if I'm not wrong, by constitution, but you know, people will break constitution, and they will give you any other reason to say maybe, oh, your religion is not following the rules.

They probably will use that reason to put some people in prison.

But by constitution itself, it says we have freedom to believe in religion. But if you want to be a communist party member, you can't have any religion.

And Marxism is what you need to believe. Really? So they would not permit a card -carrying member of the communist party to be anything but an atheist?

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I think the precondition to become a communist party, because you need to feel in the form of religion.

If you want to join the party, it needs to be non -religion. Really? That's interesting.

And of course, whether they call it that or not, atheism and Marxism are religions.

They're just false religions. People try to dance around that by claiming that they're not religions, but every ideology is a religion, whether it's identified that way or not.

But we have to go to our first station break right now. Sure. If anybody, again, would like to join us on the air with a question for Non, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country.

Residents only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And don't go away.

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We're now back with Nan. We are referring to her only as Nan since she is or was a

Chinese atheist who was pursuing an acting career in the United States, and she found eternal life in Christ Jesus.

She is an acting coach helping students audition for American and British drama schools.

And if you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any of our listener questions, Nan, I'd like to go back even further in your life to when acting became something of great interest to you.

What kind of acting were you able to see and enjoy and experience in China?

Did you experience a lot of Western acting, American acting, or was it more exclusively

Chinese? Tell us about that. For movie, I think they filter some of the movies as well, but most of the world movies are accessible in China.

Believe it or not, even before I become a Christian, my favorite movie is Shawshank Redemption.

Yeah, very, very good movie. Very excellent movie. So we are able to watch those kind of movie.

And for me, when I was very young, I watched a movie. I didn't even know the movie's name, but I remember it was about a black guy who are trying to be a diver in the ocean.

Oh, yeah, I saw that with William Gooding Jr., I think his name is.

Cuba Gooding Jr., I'm sorry, not William. Cuba Gooding Jr. and Robert De Niro, I believe, was.

I don't know. I didn't know English, but I just remember that moment I was watching that movie.

I was so inspired by their spirit, like their determination, their perseverance just touched me so hard.

And I was thinking, I want to do this kind of acting for people as well to inspire them.

So that's somehow kind of like I have this seed of acting planted in my heart.

And I'm assuming that in spite of the fact that China is a communist nation, that you are free to travel in other parts of the world, in the

West and so on, as you are now doing here in the United States. Yes.

It seems to be a lot less restrictive than the former Soviet Union was. Yeah, I'm free to go anywhere.

And well, let me start taking some of our audience questions because hopefully they've been waiting patiently.

We have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, how did your family react to your conversion to Christianity?

Well, at the beginning, yeah, of course they would think I was brainwashed by Western cultures.

Wow. I think regardless of religion,

I think country, you know, at a country level somehow there is a hostility to each other.

So like here, the information you know about China was not true as well.

And the same for China, in China, like the information we got from, we got information about the

U .S. was quite, the truth was twisted. So we would think, okay, because we are influenced by Western culture, that's why we would think in other ways.

So yeah, at the beginning, my parents were reacting in that way. But then they say the change on me, especially, they can feel related to what

I tell them about what Bible says, like love, forgiving, grace.

They didn't think there was any wrong about this issue. Yeah. And so now

I think they are okay about, because they didn't say there is any harm.

But I was thinking if one day I, my life was, my life is threatened, or if I put in,

I'm put into jail because of my faith, that will probably have a blow on my parents.

But right now, because nothing really harming happening on me, so they are fine. And they agree with what we say, what

I tell them about Bible, and they think what Bible says are quite good.

Now, what would cause the authorities to arrest you for your faith?

What would be the demonstrable activity that you are involved in, which would be a fruit of your

Christian faith that would cause the government officials to say, oh, now you've crossed the line.

Now we've got to silence you, arrest you, et cetera. What would be those issues? What would be those issues?

I can only talk about some simple reason, like if they have some rules to say you should join in the registered church.

But if I insist on joining other church, which may do something against with their rule,

I would say that could be the reason, because I didn't follow their rule.

Now, when you were saying earlier that in order to be a member of the Communist Party, you would have to identify yourself as an atheist when you fill out the membership form, does the government treat people differently who refuse to become members or just do not become members by virtue of the fact that they are

Christian? You mean for party members who are

Christian, who are non -Christian? Well, I'm saying what is the benefit for a citizen of China to become a member of the

Communist Party? And what would be the negative side if you say, well,

I can't become a member because I'm a Christian, and one of your rules, as from what you were referring to before, is that you have to be an atheist.

Okay, so that's all personal choice. Like I didn't choose to join in the party, but I have classmates who choose to join in the party.

And for a lot of government position, you need to be in the party so that you can get the job and you can get promoted.

So that's the, if we call it as benefit. That's kind of the way you do it.

So you're not restricted for many of the benefits of life in China by virtue of not being a member of the

Communist Party? I'm not. Yeah. And I think we have,

I think, I think we have equal rights with other people.

Now, is it just Christians? Or, you know, we hear about the

Uyghur Muslims being persecuted there. Perhaps this is not something that's commonly known amongst those who are...

Again, by constitution, I just double -checked it. By the constitution, number 36, it says we have religious freedom.

So for the persecution you talk about, I actually don't know the deep reason why they got persecuted.

But, you know, the news could be run by the news side because there are some foreign force about separating the country.

Because it's complicated, I think, the issue. It's not just a religious issue. It's involved with the territory.

Many people are involved in that issue. So I think it's hard to say it's just because of a religious reason.

And from me, from what I experienced, I have enough freedom, to be honest, in China.

Okay. We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who says,

Do the Christian churches in China that you are aware of preach repentance and trust in Christ for salvation?

Do they teach that we are sinners in need of redemption? That's an excellent question because, obviously, that places the situation of what is being proclaimed by the government -run churches there.

And are you free to tell someone in China, if they are an atheist, that they will be damned without trusting in Christ as their

Lord and Savior? They will be what? Are you free to tell an atheist, for instance, in China, that they will be damned without Christ?

They will be eternally damned. Uh -huh. I am free to say so.

And, yeah. And for as to if the church talking about repenting and because the church

I was in China is actually a family church. So I visited the state church.

I mean, the church is responsible, is sponsored by the government. I visited there several times.

I think I can ask because I have these pastors contacting, ask if they teach those things.

But the church I was in, they teach so. We are very aware of what

Bible says about saying repent. Now, did you say earlier that the family churches are illegal, though?

I did. Yes, so they're more free. Not free according to the government, but they, in their own consciences, are free to preach whatever they believe the

Word teaches from the pulpit. Family church, yes. Yes. Okay.

And we are going to our midway break right now. If anybody has a question, as Cindy had and others, please send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said

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Chinese Atheist pursuing an acting career in the United States who found eternal life in Christ Jesus currently an acting coach helping students audition for American and British drama schools before we continue that discussion

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Chinese Atheist a former Chinese Atheist who was pursuing an acting career in the

United States who found eternal life in Christ Jesus that's chrisarnsen at gmail dot com and before I go to any listener questions

Nan I remember I forgot to respond with a question when you said just as in China there are twisted teachings about what life and what the ideology is like here in the

United States and in the West just like that is a reality in China where the truth is twisted that occurs here in your opinion about what

Americans are told about China can you be more specific about some of the things that we here wrongly believe typically about China so I grew up in a family that a lot of our relatives are working for the government they are they are trying to do their work you know for my grandparents generation they were very poor people were starving and in my generation

I can get the help to come to the United States even though we would say okay there in terms of freedom things can be should be criticized in China but when

I look at what I experienced and what I my parents my grandparents experienced some of the things are really getting much better than before that's why

I wouldn't you know say hey when my grandma always say oh we need to be thankful for Chairman Mao I wouldn't say hey you don't know what he did because he because she experienced the improvement of her life so I think like the coin have two sides sometimes the

US is emphasizing too much on one side and ignore the other side which can create a certain stereotype and well thank you for that and we do have

CJ from Lindenhurst Long Island New York who asks

I'm assuming that the leftist actors and actresses here in the

West may be just as hard to reach with the gospel as communists in China can you tell us about the comparison between opening up about your faith and evangelizing those that you know and love who are atheists in China and those that you know who are in your field of acting who may even hate

Christ and Christianity Wow well that's a thanks for the question you know the the the the person who introduced me to Christ was was a actress we both of us were taking up acting in Boston and one day she looked at me she saw how hard I was working she looked at me she said

Nan do you know you don't have to work so hard all you need to do is to give it to give it to Lord and I look at her in my brain

I was I was thinking is she insane like I I don't need to work hard and just give it to someone

I don't know so but then I part of me say okay she's she's so good she she really keeps a good dignity in our acting class and I I told myself she means something even she means something more than what

I what I thought so after both of us went back to the to New York I started to attend her church so she is she's an actress but yes a lot of other actors and actresses

I know here they are they are not Christians and and yeah and they are very driven by their personal their their ambitious their their selfish ambitious so I so was

I and in terms of un -Christians in China because for the church are not so easy accessible for the majority population so yes by that level the the it's not easy for them to hear

God's words but I think he's really doing the work in China like how how

I knew him and through him I can tell my parents my family my friends and and there are also a lot of underground churches are really growing largely so by that level

I think God is working as the plan

Now what was forgive me for asking you to repeat this what kind of churches are growing largely

I I think I said underground oh okay and those are the ones that would be more in alignment with family churches right who are really trying to remain faithful to the scriptures no matter what the cost may be we have

Susan Margaret from Dauphin County Pennsylvania who asks

I don't know how familiar you are with reformed theology within Christianity but I was wondering how prevalent that is or scarce in China In China okay so I am in a reformed church now

I'm in OPC yeah and before OPC I went to two extreme not two extreme churches

I tried two directions because I found here church will either go very like like the modern church non -denominational church where we where we don't listen to God's words like strictly like they will use one or two

Bible verses and then use the worldly psychological kind of explanation but then there's the other direction which is like a kind of controlling one so I went to both at the very beginning

I was in the church and I felt I was not fed very well and also so I left but then

I stumbled into stumbled into Jehovah's Witness and because they are having

Bible Bible classes every week and they are reading reading

Bible so I kind of went two kinds and then now I mean a reformed church where I think is keeping a very good balance like you have this system to take each other accountability but at the same time it's not controlling it's more it's more following what

Bible talks about how a church should be and in terms of China when

I went back last time to China I tried to find priest

OPC as well but it was not very common but there was

Baptist church Trinity church yeah but also a lot of non -denominational churches well thank you for that excellent question

Susan Margaret we have Robert in Westchester County New York and Robert asks what are some typical excuses that Chinese atheists or non -Christians have in rejecting

Christ so when

I think when life is okay it's easy to just live their own life because it seems like it can nothing has to do with God it's like how

I was before when my life was okay why I need to believe in God and then when

I realized there is a problem when I really see my own sin oh the other one is the excuse is that in terms of sin because people will still think will still think about good action they think if they have good action it means they are good people and now you tell them you are born with sin it's hard to accept that it's like it's hard for us to admit our own faults it's it's just hard for for people or non -Christian to to do that yeah

I saw the other one I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I want to live.

And now all of a sudden, now here is a God asking me to give up what I want to do.

It's like the fear of, I'm going to lose myself.

I'm going to become a servant for someone. There is that kind of fear, I think, in a lot of atheists' hearts.

We have, let's see, Bobby in Hartsdale, New York wants to know how much of the true biblical gospel and Christian theology was available in China through different forms of media and the internet?

And let me add to that myself, literature, books, and so on. Okay, so I think before we can still purchase

Bible online, but I think for the recent year, it seems like you can't get it online.

You can't get it for public website, but you can still find some ways to purchase them.

But for more like literature books, for example,

The Pilgrim's Progress, I even got one before I came here.

So for that kind of literature, which has Christian beliefs, that one is still accessible.

That's interesting because that was written by a man who was imprisoned for his faith. Yes, yes.

How about more modern, reformed authors that are solid?

I think that the majority of professing Christians writing books today are writing horrible books, but I think the majority are.

But as far as good, solid, reformed books of today, is there anything available over there? Yes. We even had a small group study about Tim Keller's The Meaning of Marriage and The Meaning of God and The Meaning of Work.

So that kind of book we can buy online. Right now, that's the only one that you could think of as far as a reformed author.

Because I didn't read by other books, so I couldn't say for other books. Mm -hmm.

And let's see here. We have an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says,

I don't even feel the freedom to open up about my personal faith in Jesus Christ in my own home here in the

United States because of the hatred I experience from my own family.

What advice do you have in regard to enabling people, by God's grace, to be more bold and honest regardless of the outcome when it comes to Christianity?

Paul, I'm sorry about what you experienced. I think it must be very, very hard for you.

That's why you couldn't really open up yourself. So far,

I really haven't been treated badly because of my faith. But the way

I approach people in China was I emphasize the part that I think they can understand.

Like when I talk with my parents and even my grandparents, I emphasize the part of love.

I didn't mention, you know, I didn't mention, like, if you don't know

God, you go to hell. I didn't mention that. More for, like,

God will help me to be more loving, be more tolerant. I will tell them how

I experienced from God. Even when I was in the church in my hometown where we have other

Chinese governor was there as well. I would open it to say, hey, I'm a Christian, and Christianity helps me a lot to know my life and the world.

So I would emphasize the part I think they can relate to as well. We have

Miguel in Barnstead, New Hampshire.

He has a couple of questions. I'll read the first one to you first, obviously. I read much in the media about Christian persecution in China.

Is this not a prevalent, is this not as prevalent as what's being reported about China?

Or perhaps it may be similar to instances we see here in the United States. Can you share examples of Chinese persecution in China you may have witnessed?

I was in a church in Beijing, and it's a family church.

And we would have some police kind of walking around that building, but they didn't really do anything.

And then after COVID started, our church had to give up that building, and we started to have sermon online.

But then we started to rent different places, locations. So from where I was before,

I haven't really witnessed people who were persecuted.

Yeah, but I read a book. There was one, if you want to know more, probably you can read, it's called

The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun. The Heavenly Man?

Yeah. And by who? I'm sorry, I didn't hear the author. Y -U -N

Yun. Oh, it's a Chinese author? Yes. But that was not relevant.

That is not prevalent. That was like in the 1980s.

So for current situation about persecution, I personally haven't really witnessed.

Now, what do those in what you have already described as illegal churches, the family churches, the underground churches, what have they said to you, if anything, about what they believe may happen to them if the government becomes aware of what they're doing?

What kind of threat do they believe is imposed upon them?

What kind of consequences do they? So first I've heard the

Christian will be invited to have a tea with them.

Invited to have a what? I'm sorry? To drink tea with them. Oh, okay. Which means they were kind of like, okay, talk with you a little bit and kind of give you a little bit warning or reminding something.

And yeah, they will not, from what I heard, they will really talk with you a little bit.

Not like, okay, go to your home and take you away. So they would talk with you and see how things go with you.

And if somebody persists, though, in disobeying the government, I'm assuming they would be arrested, wouldn't they? I don't really know, to be honest.

So many, like the persecution I heard, it was actually when

I was here in the US, I didn't really hear that much when

I was in China. And I'm not sure what I heard here, how much of them are true.

So yeah, so I didn't, I don't think I'm qualified to answer this question. And also people around me, they didn't experience that as well.

But there were some of them, several of them were invited probably to have a tea. And what happened when they came back after the tea?

Did they just continue as they were already doing? Okay.

Yeah, you continue to their original life. Um, Miguel has a second question.

My wife has befriended a co -worker who recently emigrated from China and is living with her family already here as citizens.

The co -worker is not a Christian. What advice can you share regarding ways my wife can open up to her co -worker about Christianity?

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a very good question. I think let them experience love is very important because we talk so much about love.

When we are blinded, like I was blinded, talking sometimes didn't work very well.

It works, you know, we know him by words. Yes, it is true. But also, when

I really experience physically, emotionally, psychologically, experience God, that's where things really can change.

So let them experience God's love, God's glory, and let them see what it looks like to be a light, to be salt.

Well, really, because they will know how different your presence is, and that will be in your heart.

They will remember that until maybe one day when timing is good. Yeah, things can be changed.

Well, we have to go to our final break. It's going to be more brief than the other breaks. But if you do have a question that you'd like to ask,

I would recommend strongly that you send it in as quickly as possible, because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with non right after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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Historical Bible Society and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida and the

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

It is much more than an exposition of a larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back, and before I return to my interview with Nan, I do have a very exciting announcement to make.

This coming September, I am going to be attending and manning an exhibitors booth once again at the

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. The theme of this conference is on one of my favorite themes, the sovereignty of God, and it features some very powerful speakers including

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anial, Josh Bice, and my dear friend of many years,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. And even more exciting about this news is that I have been given a discount code for my listeners that will give you 30 % off the cost of registering for this conference.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3m -i -n .org, which stands for G3 Ministries, g3m -i -n .org,

and when you register, enter the promo code g3i -s -i -r, that's g3i -s -i -r for Ironsharpensironradio, and you will get 30 % off on your registration fee.

So please do that as soon as possible. This conference is Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, and I hope you join me there.

And if you do join me there, I hope that you visit me at my exhibitors booth as I man every year there.

But we are back now with Nan, and our email address again is chrisorenson at gmail .com.

If you have a question, chrisorenson at gmail .com. I'd like you, before I go to any listener question, to have a couple of uninterrupted minutes where you really bear open your heart and you give our listeners what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before they go before we go off the air.

I want to make sure that the most primary and essential things you would like to say to our listeners is heard before we go into too many listener questions.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about the previous question, how to approach to their

Chinese co -worker who is an atheist. I think to know that person's problem, like what is where that person's mind is stuck in terms of believing

Christianity, and try to know that that will help to talk more about God to that person.

Because for me, I met a brother, he really helped me a lot in terms of my logic of thinking of God, because I was stuck there.

And he spent hours and hours, just helped me to kind of see, okay, here this is where your mind rested over there.

But he would explain to me, because it's not like I didn't want to believe, it's just the way

I was educated for so many years. I became a Christian when I was 27.

So I lived in one way for 27 years. And all of a sudden, if you want me to change, it was like my mind, my brain was bombed.

So I think the way to approach for non -Christian is to know their issue, where their mind gets stuck.

Yeah, and also, I also want to emphasize about grace for one of the questions we touched.

Like, I was talking with a friend of mine, she's working for UN as a translator, the day before yesterday.

She's a Chinese as well. She believes in Buddhism, and she has a very good conscience about the bad part of her heart.

She remembers all the moments she chose from evil and good, and she knew her instinct will just let her to choose the bad choice.

But then the way she solved the problem is to try very hard to keep alert, to always better herself, because she thinks there are saints who can achieve that.

But I said to her, you know, one of the things I experienced through God is grace.

I told her I tried your way, but that way didn't work on me, because I found no matter how hard I beat myself,

I will be either very proud of myself or thinking very low of myself, if I try things in my way, if I try to achieve it by myself.

But if I receive God's grace, I will not have those two extreme feelings, either being proud or feeling horrible about myself, because I achieved that by God's grace.

So I think this is another thing we can tell people as well. Amen. Yeah, I have heard from people who were in either

Christian denominations that are not Reformed, or even in cults, that place them on a works righteousness treadmill, and they wind up very often being so burned out, knowing that they could never do enough to earn

God's favor, that many of these people just abandon religion altogether.

And it's interesting, because many of these groups and religions teach people that without that fear, that constant fear that you drill into people's minds, you're going to lose them, because they're not going to be afraid of abandoning that religion.

But they wind up abandoning it anyway, because they know they can never satisfy the requirements of those religions.

So none of us can satisfy what the law demands.

And that's why our Savior, Jesus Christ, the God -man, the only perfect spotless lamb, the only perfectly obedient and righteous substitute that we could have, died for us on Calvary.

That's the very reason He had the wrath of His own

Father poured upon Him on the cross. And I praise God for that every moment that I have the opportunity.

We have, let's see here, I was just looking at it moments ago.

We have, oh, Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania. And Joseph says, do you miss

China enough to return there permanently, or are you enjoying life as a Christian too much here in the

United States? Oh, I will go back, even this time when I came to the U .S.,

I know I will go back to China after I finish my education program, because I think that's the door

God opened for me to do in China. Last time when

I went back China as an actress, and somehow teaching just kind of approached to me.

So many people were asking me to teach people. So, and I say,

I can do, what I do in China actually can make more, kind of make more difference over there, because here in the

U .S., your education system is already quite developed. But in China, even

I only do a little bit, it can really help a lot for students. Well, the education here may be developed, but it's also very corrupt.

I know. I didn't think about it that seriously. But, you know, now studying

NYU, I'm exposed in so many different way of looking at education.

And how is your faith received at NYU? I mean, that's known as a extremely left -wing institution.

You know, and I have seen in my life as a Christian, I don't know if you have witnessed this, but left -wing institutions tend to be more gracious to those that are not white

Anglo -Saxons who are Christians than they would be towards someone like me.

They tend to be more tolerant to ethnic and racial minorities who express their faith.

Is that what you are experiencing or not? Exactly. We have so many classes talking about creating an inclusive classroom, which means we need to be open to every kind of situation, you know, homosexuality, transgender, different race.

So, yeah, you are right about it. And yeah, because it sounds quite, if I'm not a

Christian, I think I will think, oh, wow, it sounds so lofty.

Like, wow, you are open for everyone. But now I understand it from another perspective of the education development the

U .S. is actually experiencing now. Yeah. We have a question from RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know, have you ever become aware of a government official or at least a high -end government employee with authority who is actually secretly harboring a

Christian faith? You mean in China? I'm assuming that's what the listener meant.

Yeah. I'm not aware of that, yeah.

So you've never even heard anecdotally about that occurring?

Or there might be even people who are turning a blind eye to certain things just to protect

Christians or anything like that? You know, my parents are working for the government, and my aunt and other family members are.

I think I didn't hear about such things. Sorry.

Oh, that's okay. I'm just curious. And, well, we don't have time for any further questions from the audience, so I'll just ask a final one of my own.

How would you like us to pray for you? Oh, thank you so much. Yeah.

I wish my relationship with God can be strengthened, my understanding of Him can be more expanded, so when

I go back, no matter what happens, I can still be rooted firmly in Him and really become a vessel for Him to do the plan

He has for us. Well, it's been an honor and privilege to have you on the program.

You're a delightful Christian woman, and I hope I have the opportunity to share fellowship with you and those

Christians who are expressing their hospitality and love toward you there, or here,

I should say, in the United States. And I look forward to receiving updates from you.

Just out of curiosity before we go, I know that you're an instructor when it comes to acting.

Are you pursuing more of the acting career as your own livelihood, here and when you return to China, as far as being an actress?

I'm more doing for like an education part now. I have theater in China.

We would serve for, we would do improvisation for the community.

But most of the part I'm doing education, drama and education. So for myself,

I kind of rely on God to say, if there is a chance for me to act,

I would love to act. For example, before I came here, we did a

Christian film, a short Christian film. I love those kinds of chances to do acting.

But most of the part, I think my career will be more education -oriented, to use drama as a way to help people to improve their personal growth.

All righty. Well, thank you so much for being our guest today. I want to thank everybody. My pleasure. Thanks to all the listeners for the questions.

Thank you for listening to me. I hope my English is clear enough for everybody to understand.

Yes, your English is more clear than many people I know who were born and raised right here in the

United States. Thanks for saying Lord. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater