Corporate Prayer Guide - Part 2

We're going to continue going through our prayer guide, so I'm going to start our time here today by reading the

Lord's Prayer again and Today we're largely going to be dealing with the second section on the prayer guide, which is going to be questions to ask before praying

But as I said, I'll begin our time here with the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 5 6 9 Pray then like this our

Father in heaven hallowed be your name Your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors and lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil so as I said this This passage is meant to provide us with a framework for biblical prayer.

We're told to pray like this We're not necessarily told to pray exactly like this over and over again

Particularly before basketball games or football games in order to elicit God's help in winning.

That's that's something that My high school did growing up. We would pray the

Lord's Prayer every time before game. I suppose we thought that if we prayed it better than the other team that God would help us get a win, but That really didn't make a whole lot of sense

But as I said, yes, this is supposed to be a framework for prayer, and you really aren't Supposed to divide these elements up into separate disconnected elements

So that's something I said last week and what I mean by that is that there is some utility in thinking about these as distinct

Elements, but you shouldn't understand them to be disconnected Elements that bear no correlation to the other parts.

So there's a logic of the Lord's Prayer that makes sense The advancement of God's kingdom to the praise of God's glory is the ultimate priority

Which governs all of it? So as you're praying for physical needs as you're confessing your sin and asking for spiritual aid

You're doing that in a particular context of seeking to glorify God and advance God's kingdom.

So so there is some value in treating these as distinct things as Items that should be that should filter into our prayers

But as I said, I mean there's an overarching agenda that makes sense of the whole thing. So this is a Model prayer that we should think through.

We talked about those things last week This week we'll deal with some of these questions to ask before Praying and I'm not sure that there's a wonderful way to do something like this to give a prayer guide.

That doesn't sound like That Doesn't come across in an intimidating way,

I suppose here's a list of all the Ways, you're not supposed to pray.

So therefore you're too afraid to pray at all because you may fall afoul of the list of Questions here that you're supposed to be asking but it is it is supposed to be a teaching tool

It's supposed to be something that should help inform our prayers It's something that's obviously it'll be in our bulletins every week

So it's something to think about and hopefully it'll be a resource to think about as you're praying on your own in general

And but large largely this is supposed to help inform public prayers that we're supposed to be making.

So Here's some question to ask before praying the first one It may may go without saying that this should be

Something that we should ask before praying and yet at times I mean there is examples in the

Bible of people Violating this standard for prayer that I'm going to mention here.

And this this is something that often can happen to where a

Christian will ask for something that they Lawfully shouldn't ask for so the first question we should ask before praying is the question.

Can I lawfully ask for my? Can I lawfully ask for my request an example of this would be numbers 22 6 so Balak is is trying to enlist

Balaam's help in cursing the people of Israel and he's willing to pay him some money in order to do this and he's

Doesn't really understand how prayer works and doesn't understand The limitations to what

Balaam's allowed to do But here here is Balaak's request to Balaam.

He says come now curses people for me since they are too mighty for me Perhaps I shall be able to defeat them and drive them from my land for I know that he whom you bless is blessed and he whom you curse is

Cursed so this would be an example of an unlawful request that Balaak is asking

Balaam to make so he's asking Balaam to treat prayer as if it's some kind of magical talisman where you just enlist the help of the deity

Just If you go through the right formula if you if you go through the right moves

You know if you wave the right things in the right kind of order that God will help you you'll twist his arm in order to help you and so he's seeking to ask

Balaam to Curse the people of Israel, but the problem is that God has promised to bless the people of Israel so God has given the people of Israel a blessing that has

Come to them from his blessing to Abraham, which is passed on so The Abraham blessing basically says to Abraham that I'll bless those who bless you and to him who dishonors you

I will curse and Balaak knows that knows from experience that this is what is happening to the people of Israel But he thinks that maybe if he can he can get

Balaam to pray in the right place or in the right manner That somehow he can overturn God's purposes for the

Israelites And so one one question we should ask before praying is the question You know can

I lawfully ask for this request is this something that God? That it would please

God to answer or is there anything in his word? That would tell me that This is not something that would honor him

To ask of him so can anyone think of any examples of something that would fit into this kind of category

Calling there you go

But that that wouldn't intuitively seem Like it would be a bad thing to pray

Because it seems like we should Right yeah, right help everyone stop fighting everywhere now, there's some

Or do we have another check on these two about Yep Right so that'd be an example of that any other thoughts about that Examples yeah, sure

Well, there's a mech. There's a mechanism that God has put into the world for vengeance, so The government is an avenger of wrongdoing

So there's a lawful means of pursuing vengeance even in this life meaning you Submit to the government to enact and carry out

The sword to bear the sword of vengeance So there there is there is a sense in which we are praying for vengeance

Appropriately applied in this life by appealing to the government But then the

Saints in heaven are basically saying how long the Lord until you avenge our blood right our blood so God all

Ultimately vengeance is going to be committed to God in the final Analysis so what we're prohibited from doing is taking vengeance into our own hands

If that makes sense, so there's a confusion there where people think that vengeance is bad

Period it's like well. No the government is an avenger of wrongdoing and ultimately God is going to avenge all wrongs so You shouldn't be

Batman Right tried to be Batman's wrong. You shouldn't be Batman if that makes sense community watch commander

Yeah There's some discussion to be had about the nature of protection as an individual right individual responsibility and Then a community responsibility so the fact that we look to the police to Take on the entirety of the role of protection

Would be a mistake if that makes sense so For example,

I mean I would like to train my sons to think that if they see a woman who is being

Mistreated in public that they would defend her I Would not want to train my daughter to do that You know because one guy could take out two girls as easy as he could take out one you know, so I but I would like to train my sons to have an impulse to say it's our responsibility to Protect the weak right now for a community to organize himself

And say we're we're gonna have a mechanism of trying to protect our neighbors

That's different than enacting vengeance That's just assuming the responsibility to love and to care for Your people.

I mean like if you were living in the time where there were significant and real dangers You know like the

Indians or I don't know if I'm allowed to say that word anymore. Is that not PC? Well, well this get put off a

YouTube for saying Gotta be careful but I mean you know you get what

I'm saying like if you're in your Little settlement and you have you put your barricades up and there's raids that are happening

Thank you. You would as a community take it upon yourself to say Hey, we'll set up a watch and try to protect each other

Now we so as I said, I think we've kind of handed over all those Responsibilities to the government where no one really is thinking in those

Lines anymore like as if they have any responsibility and so then when something bad happens It's like we'll call the police, but then

I'm not sure that that's really a wonderful Impulse to have but that's very different than vengeance.

Vengeance would be organizing a I Mean there would be ways that you could some crime has already happened and then get the community to round that person up and Take care of it.

So I mean, I think there's like lawful means of taking care of it I'm sure Conley has some more filled out thoughts on some of those things too than what

I have But yeah So, can I lawfully ask for my request?

I think there's plenty of things like that that you could If you know, you're about to commit a sin

It's very difficult to pray for God to bless you and the committing of your sin.

I think sometimes like Where with respectable sins we can violate this more

This rule more than others so for example with gossip and slander and bitterness and Bitterness is like a big one that could

You could maybe imagine many different ways in which a person

Is Praying towards the end of either feeding bitterness or Rationalizing bitterness or excusing bitterness that you should be thinking.

Okay, can I really lawfully Ask this like really, you know for example

Like if there's someone who is mad at you and you're praying that you don't have to see them or something like that You're living in a victim society where a lot of people would give that kind of thing a pass like, you know

Lord help me to not have to see this person today and you may not even be thinking about that as Strange as what it actually is, but that could be a prayer that would be filled with Bitterness that There should be a check.

Can I really ask that? I don't think so. So in a victim society, there's a lot of things

I think you could put on that list. In other words, can I lawfully ask for my request? Any other examples so you guys can think of with that thoughts?

I mean, there's obvious examples of things that are so absurd that most people probably would never think to write like as I'm sneaking into my

Sneaking into my employment office and trying to steal the documents Lord help no one to discover me

Kind of having this those would be clear examples when it comes to Non -respectable sins,

I think when it comes to respectable things since things get murky. Yep Forgive me be like a preemptive forgiveness

Yeah, I Know it's wrong, but it's a pragmatic kind of thing what

Emmanuel Uh -huh talking about like an imprecatory prayer

Precatory Chris Yeah, there's a whole category for imprecatory prayers in the Bible that We would do well to familiarize

I did a podcast episode on that so I don't know if I need to like repeat the whole thing right now

But I do think there is there is a place for imprecatory prayers

Obviously because the Psalms are filled with imprecatory prayers just to give you an example of a logic that you could take and Apply so that those kind of scenarios to just to try to explain what's happening

The reality is that not everyone will repent So we should we should want our enemies to come to repentance

And at the same time the reality is God is not determined to save all of them so I Think an appropriate prayer if you're in the middle of World War two is to you know, say he's you know

Save Hitler or stop him you save him or stop him

So, I mean you there is a an acknowledgment that How do you pray if you're in a war against another country?

Apart from and praying some kind of imprecatory prayers upon them Particularly if your cause is righteous and their cause is unrighteous

So, you know certainly yeah Stop their tanks Starve their soldiers.

I Mean so the issue is like if if you have any category for a just war you have some category for an imprecatory prayer

But certainly yeah, I mean I think with our political enemies in the world right now There's an appropriate place to say shut their mouth, you know break their teeth

Silence them, you know cause them to repent or break their teeth in the mouth that the way that the psalmist prays

Like save him or stop him, you know, so when you when you realize that There are entailments to these evil wicked policies that involve millions of children dying like there is a there if you

If there's something fundamentally immoral immoral about saying hey, you know Lord Give Hitler a good night's sleep, you know and help him to be well rested and give him clear thoughts

You know in his mind and help him to have a good breakfast, you know and help all of his soldiers to have energy and you know at some point you are you're

Yeah Then you're dealing with the sin of enabling, you know, so not only are we

At some point you're giving hearty approval what they're doing and you know I help their tanks to be swift and their bullets to be fast and you know,

I key There's save them or stop them. You know, there's a place for both Do you have a thought

Connelly? James can

I lawfully ask for my? Now, I mean, yeah, I think I think there's a competing concerns there obviously.

So there's there is the There there there is the concern to say that again your enemy soldier, yeah,

I It's very complicated because because there's a number of situations you can find yourself in to where okay, it

Depends on what kind of situation you find yourself in so I mean like just praying for a minimization of Lives lost may be a

Inappropriate prayer in one context and then another context it might not so for example When the Israelites are going into the promised land and God devotes the nations to destruction

There's a sense in which you wouldn't be praying for the minimization of that I mean that like if someone swears a blood oath against like if a whole clan of people square a blood oath against you

You know, they will not rest until you are utterly wiped off the face of the earth, you know

Well, I just gave it the second example someone's like if you have a group of people who are swearing a blood oath

They will not rest until they utterly annihilate Your people off the face of the earth.

At what point do you I? mean you could be praying Lord help them to Turn back from that but then just like There may be it may just be more complicated than that, you know to I mean there are like examples of I mean you can imagine scenarios where just as there is a sin leading to death in a church discipline sense where you should not pray for the man who is

In that kind of situation there are there could be scenarios in a political realm where there's so much blood on their hands that I Mean I don't know

I mean if if you have a person who's just ethically if you have a tribe imagine you have a tribe who's just ethnically cleansed

All the tribes around them Then if you're just praying minimize the loss of life here

There's something like there's just just it needs to happen in this moment, too So that's why

I could imagine different kind of scenarios where you might be praying along different lines

So part of justice might involve Putting a stop I wouldn't say it's

I wouldn't say it's situational as if the ethics changed But there are ethics that apply to different situations.

But yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's ethics. Yep. I Think there's a big moral calculus that a person has to make where they go to war

And when you go to war there is there is a kind of justification that needs to happen for it to be

Permissible so like you have you know, just war theory However, you want to describe like there is a concept of a just war and once a person makes that calculation to go to war

There is there needs to be a very high standard and assuming that high standard has been met then

The assuming that standard has been met then there is a just there is a hypothetical just side

If you're on that hypothetical just side, you should be praying for victory Right in that way

And surrender on the part of the other side assuming now what you're saying is in real life

It's not often so black and white like that and so If our nation for it, for instance, like a lot of the wars that our nation has have engaged in are of questionable value

Questionable moral Justification so then how do you pray in light of that? You know, it's certainly there's a love for people a love for a country

You know pray for peace, you know kind of kinds of impulses, but then to what extent do you support?

that and pray that that agenda is advancing, you know, because there's a sense in which in Can I even ask that we

Win this fight for this reason, you know, that's a fair question to ask so Those are things to think about.

Yeah there's in Related to our own nation It there it can be somewhat complicated when you see the wickedness that we're engaging in at times, too

So for example, like yeah, just give us a bunch of money bless Like God bless

America period the end like bless us with prosperity financial safety ease Is that So that we can continue killing all the babies right that that would be a question of is that Should we just be praying for blessings period the end with no breaks with no qualifications with no

Nothing can is that right considering where we're at in history? So It can't just be because this is our nation that everything we do is right and we want

God to Give us more freedom to keep on doing it kind of thing So that's those are questions that could go into there for sure

To am I and this is related? am I asking with the right motives so James 4 is a good passage to think through And this is one of those passages that are very specific there are times where I Think I've said this before where you reading through the

Bible you're looking for specific answers to specific questions and the Bible obviously doesn't come to you and Encyclopedia kind of form where you can look up your you know here

Subject matter and it gives you a list of things but this is one of those passages that is very very specific that answers a very specific question that a lot of us

Would do well to pay attention to so there's four one says what causes quarrels and what causes fights among you

Is it not this that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have so you murder you covet and I cannot obtain so you fight and quarrel

Says you do not have because you do not ask and you ask and you do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions so there is there is a

There is many there are many prayers that could be put in this category of The kind of prayers that God doesn't answer

And I think if you're looking at the biblical framework of prayer and you think about the advancement of God's kingdom as The agenda which should set the tone for our prayers

One of the things that I think you'll find is that when you're praying for physical needs for instance in light of the advancement of God's kingdom you may see that a

Lot of those physical needs that you're praying for those requests get answered a lot quicker

Than when you're just praying for physical needs in the realm of simple wants for the sake of advancing your own priorities and your own

Agenda, so am I asking with the right motives here like what are they? so I mean just examples like for these kind of things that I Think are fairly common

You know a parent could like a very common thing that parents can pray for their kids is

Like a prayer before bedtime where it's like help everyone to get a good night's sleep Well, the question is well.

Why are we praying that why are we praying? I'm not saying that there's no place to pray that I'm saying why what is the agenda that's driving that prayer is that a prayer?

That's being prayed because when the kids are grumpy then that tempts mommy and daddy to be

Frustrated and annoyed and bothered is that the agenda that's driving it That tempts us all to be stressed out because that's unpleasant and no one likes to be around that Well, I would say that don't be surprised if no one gets a good night's sleep that night and everyone is grumpy be so that you can learn to be patient and kind and long -suffering and gentle and meek and All the you know fruit of the

Spirit there, right? So I mean that that I'm not saying there's no place for that prayer But is what is that prayer being put forward what agenda is it being put forward to advance now?

I mean you could pray that same prayer and the the emotive behind that prayer could be Help us to get a good night's sleep so that we can faithfully serve you tomorrow

That's a very different thing That's not Give me like the agenda there is not comfort and safety and peace

You know so that like I can have a problem -free life The agenda there is that God your purposes will stand we want to serve you tomorrow

So that that's a very different kind of prayer so a lot of when we're thinking about the prayers that we're praying

Do you have to think about the motive That you're asking for those prayers, right?

So I mean the same thing is true of like sickness and health so when someone gets a cold and saying help them get better What agenda is behind that?

What is the agenda behind that? so just Help them get better.

What's the agenda behind it is it is the agenda so we can advance God's kingdom purposes

Or is that the agenda is it's just unpleasant take it away, right now

I mean just to give you a ridiculous example of something like that that I hope you see is If I were to stub my toe

I Have a scrape on my toe, then I'm praying that God healed a scrape on my toe

For what? If I pray it just because it's uncomfortable and unpleasant And I just want

God to take it away because it's bothering me and because it's annoying me or or am I really like? Praying for that because I'm scared of gangrene setting in and I'm gonna lose a toe or you know

What is that? What is the agenda so I mean I do think whatever we're praying like what is the motive the motive?

it's just comfort if it is the motive is just safety if the motive is just a problem free life if the motive motive is just Just give me as many years as you possibly can give me that are free of problems and suffering and pain and You're you're asking and you're not receiving because you're asked wrongly to spend it on your passions like that Thinking about why are you could pray a lot of those same things perhaps, but then you're praying them so my point is not like You shouldn't pray for health, and you shouldn't pray for safety, and you shouldn't

I'm saying what it what agenda is it advancing? Is it to advance God's kingdom is that your priority is to advance

God's kingdom? so for instance I mean like I my Vivian has been sick the past couple days

I'm not I'm not worried. She's one step away from death Or something like that It does disrupt the household a little bit when she's has a fever of 102

I'm not I'm not praying. I wouldn't pray for God to heal her so that I didn't have to worry about her

I wouldn't pray that God would heal her so that I We don't have to be inconvenienced by her

I Wouldn't pray yes I mean that you could be praying just because you're worried and you're saying take away the thing

So I don't have to be worried about I'm not even remotely worried about her at this point in time You know what would be a good reason to pray for it?

Well, I mean I know people get sick people get sick. That's part of life We get sick and then we get better and So it would be a good way a good motive to be praying for that would be hey

I would like everyone to go to church in order to glorify you so Lord. I would pray that you would Heal her so that my wife could go to church and worship you that wouldn't be a self -centered thing

I think that that's not a self -centered thing that's That's a fine thing to be praying so Anyways, I I think when we're thinking about the kind of things that we're praying about I think at very basic levels a lot of Times the motives behind our prayers are very far off And then it and then we shouldn't be surprised when

God doesn't give us the things that we want if the motives are all wrong So what what are what other motives that we should have?

And ultimately I think trying to think about your prayer in light of the advancement of God's kingdom and the glory of God I think those are

Helps you help you to put your prayers in the right kind of motive and you might find that the more

You're asking with the right kind of motives The more that You see your prayers answered

Now do I need to say more about the worried statement? I just made yes For his glory

Yeah Fair enough. No, I I I don't know.

I don't have any I don't have any pushback on Trying to ask for things in light of giving have an opportunity to pray

I mean, I think in most cases when you are praying for just Straight -up comfort safety ease problem -free life

You don't really have much of an impulse when God answers it to thank him because it wasn't about that to begin with and so then when it happens, it's just like okay well now that's over with and Say that Yes, so you should not be hearing me to say don't pray for your daily bread.

I'm saying How do you pray for it? Yeah, so I all these things

I'm trying to say like what you there's a motive check, right? You say that again?

Yeah, so the the agenda is for to the glory of God To the advancement of his kingdom.

So when you're saying give me this day my daily bread You're saying so that I can glorify you and serve you right now

I Mean you could imagine some ridiculous Give me this day my daily bread kind of prayers

That are not in advancing that agenda. I assume I mean, I assume that there's

I mean examples of Those things that could come to my mind

Your minds. I mean, for example if you're struggling financially and you eat out every meal and then you're praying

Give give me this day my daily Chick -fil -a You know or whatever I get a certain point

But then you keep on struggling and you keep on struggling and you don't know why like you're struggling so much to just meet your basic Needs well, it's because you you you have a different kind of agenda.

You're not being responsible for With your resources and the way that you should be being responsible for so You're praying a prayer to spend it on your passions your lack of self -control and discipline and you might find that prayer isn't being answered because you're

Praying it wrongly But yeah So am I asking with right motives? Am I asking with right motives?

I don't know if I if there's more to say here, but Help my husband to stop being so mean to me.

What's wrong with that? Someone tell me what's wrong with that prayer. All right, so Think about yeah

Think about James count it all joy when we fall into various trials for the testing of your faith produces steadfastness Let's have us full effect that you may be perfect and complete lacking in nothing.

So why do we fall into trials? So we could be perfect and complete lacking nothing.

What should we do with trials? We should count those trials as all joy, right? So if you're in a marriage where you're being mistreated

Right, what are you commanded to do you commanded to count out of joy all joy knowing that's a testing of your faith

Meant to produce steadfastness. What is God? Why is God put you there in that situation? He's put you there in that situation to grow and patience kindness long -suffering gentleness, right all the fruit of the

Spirit So think about all the fruit of the Spirit. He's trying to produce in you in those situations And so if you're just praying take it away

Then what you're saying is I don't want to be perfect and complete lacking and nothing right so now what what would be a good way

To pray in that moment Well, I think a good way to pray in that moment would be to thank the Lord for the trial that's happening

Thank the Lord for the work that he's trying to produce in it in you. I would in that moment ask the

Lord If you think I need this in order to be made more like you keep it up right help me to learn the lessons that you want me to learn from this kind of situation because my agenda is not just my own comfort and a problem -free life and You know my own sense of entitlement and what

I think I deserve like in this moment I want to grow and be made more like you and rejoice that I'm kind of worthy to suffer in the same way that you're suffering

So that's those are very different kinds of prayers than the prayer take it all away

Because I don't like it kind of prayers, right? Now help my husband to repent

So that he may better honor you right for your glory and for your good for his good, right that's

None of that selfish right help me not to resist the work You're trying to do and help him to repent so that he may glorify you and help me know how to glorify you

Those are very different than just take it all away You know take it all away make make it up because I don't like it

So I think a lot of our prayers are very much take it all away because I don't like it kind of prayers and not

We don't over and against them Having the agenda advance with God's kingdom

To the praise of his glory and our like our good being defined as sanctification our sanctification

All right, that's good enough if you have any more questions feel free to ask I Doubt I'll be able to say everything there is to say about that Number three is my prayer suitable for corporate prayer

So can others say amen to it? An example of this this is

Not the main point of 1st Corinthians 14 16, but there is a principle here that is being applied to two different scenarios

So 1st Corinthians 14 16. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit How could anyone in the position of an outsider say amen?

To your Thanksgiving when he does not know what you were saying. So this is a spiritual gift kind of discussions tongues discussion

The church at Corinth they were basically taking these pagan practices of inserting random babble into the worship service and calling that spiritual and Paul was trying to reason with him and tell them the obvious that if you're speaking in these unknown languages and no one understands what you're saying, then no one has edified in the process and Therefore you're wasting everyone's time basically

So, you know Paul will over and over again say in 1st Corinthians. I'd rather speak five words with my mind

That's a sentence then 10 ,000 words in an unknown tongue. So So then the issue is the issue is if you have a person who is you know, babbling and Gibberish no one knows what he's saying

Outsider unbeliever comes in they are not able to say amen to what you're saying because they have

No idea what you're talking about. No, no interpretation is being happened This is questionably a language.

None of it makes any sense. So the issue is there should be a impulse that we have to be able to When we're praying together say amen to what is being prayed

So meaning You should be asking the question is my prayer suitable for corporate prayer

Can others say amen to it or is it so individualized where no one has access to any of that kind of information?

So sometimes people in corporate prayer settings will pray as individuals in other words So, for example like if we're

Gathering up in our prayer groups and I were to say Lord Will you please forgive me for being frustrated with my wife last night and for raising my voice with her and you know that I Do this on a regular basis and I shouldn't do this

I shouldn't get so frustrated with her and I shouldn't raise my voice with her and you know

I did treat the kids poorly yesterday, too And I raised my voice at them and I was a little bit frustrated with them

Because I've had a lot of pressures lately and that's no excuse, but I shouldn't be doing any of that If I were to be praying that way in public, then

I mentioned everyone would be feeling a little bit awkward like I don't know how to say amen to this because I don't know anything that is happening right here and I can't affirm or deny it or you know now particularly if Like everyone doesn't have access to that kind of information so it's hard to really

Affirm that but any thoughts about this one in general any questions? So is it suitable for corporate prayer?

Can others say amen to it? You have other examples you think of okay?

Yeah, too quietly where people can't hear you

Okay Explain the nature of your concern

In a corporate setting Yeah, you don't tough cases don't make good rules

So you don't want to like the whole idea the whole concept of disability is that a person is

Unable to do something and so you're living in a world that demands that you structure the world around disabilities, but then if you really take that to its logical conclusion, then

What's going to happen is that? The world is no longer functional So if you take it to the extreme

So for instance, I mean there's some serious discussions that people have engaged on about whether or not it's

Like you should make video games for like start making video games for blind people

Like you know because like if you are making video games dependent upon you using your eyes

Then that then blind people won't be able to be included You know kind of thing so then fun

I guess if you take that logic to its extreme, then you're going to structure the world around disability over and against Structuring it around like the normal Normal rules now there there are some accommodations you can make to some extent there's there could be nothing wrong with it, but for instance if We were to attempt to have a service for every language around us

We would cease to be able to have a service like in a certain No, no, no,

I know. I'm just I'm talking about in the extreme like there are some accommodations You can make but everyone has to think about At what point are you transitioning from making reasonable accommodations to things to Crippling your ability to function as a body

So I mean like if we were to say one sentence in English and then we were to try to have ten different translators take their turn to explain it in Ten different languages then very quickly our service would

It would either go ten times as long Or you like really dramatically reduce the amount of content that you're able to do so I do think there's

Tough cases don't make good rules tough cases don't make good rules There is a category for disability in the

Bible you can't fix every disability So if you could just make the reasonable statement every disability can't be fixed and and so then

Every church needs to try to think about what are reasonable Things you could do

Right. Are you talking about in a church or at home?

Okay. Well, I'm talking about it. So this is a prayer guide for a church Yes a prayer guide for church. So But then in your home situation

When you're praying as a group Well, there's any number of accommodations that you can make at that point that yeah, so I'm basically saying at a corporate level

There's only so many accommodations you can do without just Nuking the place.

Yeah Yep Any other thoughts related that all right?

Am I using prayers avail for gossiped? so Romans 1 29

They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness they are gossips. So they're

Anyone can anyone give examples of this what this would look like That's true so Yeah gossip in general.

I mean there's checks on gossip if you if you were to try to think about well, what is gossip? Are you part of the problem?

Are you part of the solution? So those are general checks that you should be thinking about when you're thinking about information that needs to be spread to certain people

Do people have access to this information? I mean I try to you know in church life I mean invariably as a pastor,

I'm involved in I Know, you know, there's certain things that are going on here.

There's certain things that are going on there I don't take those things home and most of the time

I don't Like for example, if someone is upset with me because of something I said I mean,

I I really don't take that home and tell Elizabeth about it or tell the kids about it

They don't know, you know, they don't know about things like that. They don't know it's funny because I'm often what often happens on my end of things is that I Won't share those things and then someone will come up to My wife and say

I'm so sorry about what's going on with X person or whatever and she's like, oh,

I what are you talking about? So they're trying to console her with whatever happened and it's like I I didn't tell her, you know

I didn't tell her for a reason but yeah I mean, I think they're in prayer like does the does everyone need to know about these things?

No, everyone doesn't need to know about it So who needs who's involved in whatever the situation is

Keep it as minimal as you can possibly keep it. The kid doesn't need to be

Spread out in those kind of ways So I I don't typically take church.

I mean my own self I don't take church problems home and share them with family if there are church problems

You know whatever problems that are here just because my wife is one flesh with me doesn't mean that she needs to know everything

That I know She's not in the same role that I'm in as a pastor she's not responsible to shepherd everyone in the church so She doesn't need to know about all those situations and comment on those and weigh in on those

It's not her burden to bear so I don't I don't tell her everything that's happening in that way

But that would be an example of I could take those things home and then I could we could be praying about those things and But It's really not her responsibility to know all that Kind of thing so Yeah, is she part of the problem is she part of the solution no no so she doesn't need no

So that I mean that's that's an example so but you could use prayer as a veil for gossip

Where you could just be blasting a very pub very private situation that's happened in a very public way

You know that Susie did X Last week, and you know how awful that is and we need to pray for her

You know like is there's an appropriate pathway followed just steps of church discipline deal with those things those things

So just need to be put on blast but Any any thoughts about that any questions about the difference between that and just concern?

Some people can do that with their kids basically, so I think there's a temptation in corporate prayer to Maybe be overly specific about some of the sins that your kids are committing

That you're asking your brother your brothers and sisters to pray about But they don't really need to know all that if that makes sense they don't need to know all the specifics of all the things that they've done wrong that and are currently doing wrong and So some of that can just venture into the territory of gossip

Okay Am I using prayers avail for gossip five am I requesting?

Prayer for something. I haven't faithfully pursued Requesting prayer for something.

I haven't faithfully pursued so Proverbs 12 11 whoever works this land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits lacks sense

Anyone have any thoughts um what that could look like examples perhaps? kind of thing

I'm asking for gossipy examples Just hypothetical examples of what that could look like yep, right

Say that again My There's a missing connection there.

Yeah, there's a missing connection so in other words the the principle in the passage is the way to like if you

If you work your land you'll have plenty of bread right so that's the principle you work

So God has designed, if you want bread, you need to work your land in order to get your bread. But then you can imagine a scenario where a person doesn't work his land, has no bread, but is following worthless pursuits.

So in that kind of situation, if the guy is just praying for bread, that would be an example of someone who is praying for bread, but doesn't want to work his land.

Does that make sense? So you are praying for something that God has told you how to get in a particular way, but then you are rejecting the way to get it and asking for it.

But then you shouldn't be surprised, considering there are so many warnings and proverbs. If you don't work, you shouldn't eat.

You shouldn't be surprised that tomorrow is going to come and you are not going to have any food. So if you are just praying, give me this day my daily bread, while you are refusing to work to get that bread, then there is something inappropriate about that.

Does that make sense? James, yeah, I thought that I was egging for it.

That is certainly one example. Yes, that is certainly one example. If you pray for a wife, or if you pray for a husband, every time you see a member of the opposite sex, you go hide in a corner.

It may be that you may not ever get a husband. If you run in terror every time there is a man around.

But then the same thing, if you are praying for a wife, but then you are too afraid to talk to women, then it may be that you never get a wife too.

So have you faithfully pursued that? Have you taken reasonable steps? Comment?

I have not. Well, I have changed it on my list now, right?

I am no longer praying for you to get a job. I will start praying for you to have the discipline to seek one.

Yeah, just wait. We are going to talk about that in the sermon. In a few minutes. Put it on hold.

Yeah, that will be a point on my outline, if the Lord allows me to finish my outline today.

Who knows? Am I requesting prayer for something I have not faithfully pursued?

There is an enabling kind of concern when we are praying for these for others.

You know, in the strict sense, if a person is not willing to work, do not let them eat. There are times where, yeah,

I think if I am in your situation, I know they are not pursuing it, I would not be praying for them to get a job at that point anymore.

I would be praying that they would repent of their laziness and procrastination and go put out resumes.

At that point it would be, Lord, do whatever it takes to wake them up to help them to faithfully pursue the things you tell them to.

Do not just bail them out. But yeah, obviously you are free to do whatever you want.

Am I requesting for something I have not faithfully pursued? Am I trying to impress God and others with my prayers?

This is obviously a Pharisee temptation here, so Matthew 6 -7.

When you pray, do not heap up empty phrases like the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard by their many words.

I could give you some jokes at this point about how this looks. There are ways to appear holy when you are praying in certain environments.

Some people try to sound very spiritual by repeating Father over and over again.

For instance, every two words, Father, and Father, and Father, and Father, and Father.

Some people try to impress others with their prayer by giving the whole biblical theology from Genesis to Exodus of everything that God has done throughout redemptive history, and just going on and on and on.

Some of this involves judgmental motives. I do not think we should be judging other people's motives, but I am asking you to consider your impulses related to prayers.

If you are praying before a meal, and the prayer that you are praying before, there are times when you can give a 30 -minute sermon while everyone is standing there with their stomach growling, because you are taking that opportunity to be impressive instead of praying for the specific thing that we are requesting prayer for in that moment.

There are times where people can do this. This is obviously a problem that the Pharisees had, where they were praying to be seen by men, not to be heard by God.

You could do this too. Just take an example you may not think of.

Let's say you are worried about something, and you just pray about it all day long, every day, because you think that you are going to be heard by your many words.

Functionally, what you are doing is you are just worrying about it all day long in the form of prayer, because you think that if you do not keep on asking repeatedly, over and over and over again, that God is not going to be impressed enough with your prayer and give it to you.

Some people can think about it like that. I think you can certainly think about some of the prayers of the saints in the past, where they have worn holes in the ground with their knee, because that is where they pray.

Then you can adopt a certain kind of mysticism surrounding prayer, where God is going to hear you if you follow particular kinds of patterns and practices, because somehow he is going to be impressed by that.

That is very different than just realizing that prayer is important and devoting yourself to the task of prayer, because it is worth doing.

Any thoughts related to any of that? Trying to impress God or others with my prayers?

Heaping up empty phrases? Can anyone think of any examples of heaping up empty phrases?

I think maybe a lot of modern worship music is doing that. Heaping up empty phrases over and over again.

Or it is just mindlessly repetitive, because you think you are trying to impress God and others with your mindlessly repetitive phrases that you are heaping up.

Oh, we need to go. I won't be here next time.

What time are we supposed to start? Okay, alright, yes, I need to go.

Am I using passive prayer as a passive aggressive means of addressing conflict? Am I following the biblical instructions for addressing my needs?

Yes. Don't use prayer as a means of addressing conflicts that you have with other people.

Go talk to them. Follow the steps of church discipline. Don't be praying about them. Don't be taking your prayer as an opportunity to correct other people or hint at things that they need.

If there is something they need to hear, go talk to them about it. Am I following the biblical instructions for addressing my needs?

We can maybe do a whole thing on that. I am just going to leave it ambiguous and vague. That is good enough.

Maybe we can do a lesson on that at some point too. Let me pray. Lord, we do thank you for the chance we have to meet together today.

Thank you for the opportunity to study your word. I pray that you help us to grow in our prayers. Pray in a way that honors you.