SPECIAL: God's Law, #Coronavirus, and Love

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Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

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Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional's okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

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YES! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

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That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

01:31

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And so that's coming. So praise God for that. God is faithful, faithful, faithful. And thank you to everybody who gives towards EndAbortionNow.

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Thank you. You're saving lives. You're bringing the gospel literally around the world. You're responsible for what's happening in Northern Ireland right now, the

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Republic of Ireland and Scotland, Australia, New Zealand even, all across the

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United States of America and even into Canada right now. It's because you gave. If you gave $10, praise

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God. That's saving lives. If you gave $1 ,000, praise God. That's saving lives. So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody.

04:57

I am Jeff, the Calm of the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there. So this is a really important time for us. I know that a lot of people are at home right now watching this live because you are there by mandate and by government decree.

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And so I know I want to start. Let me just turn this music down for a second. I'm going to try to highlight this at the very beginning. We are heartbreaks for many of you who right now are anxious, you're worried, you're concerned about the future.

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You're trying to fight against and put to death unbelief regarding God's promises of his provision towards you because many of you guys have lost your jobs.

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You don't know where your check is going to come from. You don't know how you're going to feed your children or your spouse.

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You don't know how you're going to take care of your employees, many of you guys right now. I've actually started to see on my social media, my friends list, a lot of friends that I've known for many, many years, making comments like, hey,

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I lost my job. This is my skill set. These are the skills that I have.

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If anybody knows of any job that I can get so I can take care of my family, please help me.

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Let me know. I saw a friend that I've had for years post up under our sermon from Sunday, basically stating that after the governor of,

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I think it's Tennessee, after the restrictions went into Tennessee, he had to just close his doors.

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He owns a small restaurant in Tennessee. He said they closed, closed, closed. They're done because they can't make it through this.

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They can't make it through the two weeks. They can't make it through the three months. They've got employees to pay. We've got to consider these things.

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I know a lot of you guys right now are hearing love for neighbor, and you want to uphold that love neighbor.

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Let's not get each other sick. Let's try to fight against this virus spreading. But you're also wondering where is the love for you, the neighbor, and you're concerned about the financial collapse that you're experiencing in your family or in your business.

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And we want to just let you know that our heart breaks for you. We're praying for all of you, and we're trusting the

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Lord. He's sovereign over this, completely sovereign. But we're going to talk today about it. We're going to talk about coronavirus. We're going to talk about God's law.

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We're going to talk about obedience to the government, Romans 13. And we're going to talk about the second greatest commandment, which is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

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We're going to talk about wisdom. We're going to talk about authority, the authority of the state, the authority of the church.

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We're going to talk about worship. And Luke, before we invite or have our guest come on, do you want to say anything? Yeah, I was just going to say

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I just saw someone said that suicide rates are skyrocketing.

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And I was going to mention that earlier we were talking about ending abortion and stuff. Guess what? The coronavirus doesn't stop in abortions.

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If anything, there's more people having abortions because they're scared. They don't think that they can bring a child into a world with corona.

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And so, I mean, we've all seen the statistic that, what is it?

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There's more babies being murdered per day in the womb than there have been deaths in the

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U .S. Deaths via corona in the U .S. Every single day. Every day, yeah. Every single day. Now, a good moment, it's not great, it's not full justice, but a good moment for us is

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Texas said that. And Ohio too. Yeah, and Ohio, and I think other states are looking into it, that abortion is not an essential medical procedure, and so it also needs to be held off right now, so at least for the next 30 days in Texas, I believe, at least in Ohio, they're forbidding abortion.

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Now, are they going to enforce it when these abortion clinics say, no, this is essential to us? Well, in Ohio they're having that issue because there were some clinics that said, no, we're still going to do it.

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And that's the point. Isn't it amazing? You can have these abortion clinics defy the government, and I wonder how many of us have the courage to do the same.

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So, again, we're talking about coronavirus, we're talking about standing on biblical principles and God's law. Many of you guys may have seen the sermon from last

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Sunday at Apologia Church. That sermon was streamed live from our regular gathering.

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The people of God at Apologia Church have continued to gather over the last two weeks. We know that there are other believers who have differences of opinion from us.

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We respect you, and we love you, and we're going to explain some of that today. We're going to talk through this issue, and we're going to talk about how do we address this from a biblical perspective, a balanced perspective.

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That's key for us, balanced, biblical, principled, and consistent. So to do that, we have one of our good friends, one of our heroes, a man we love very, very much and respect,

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Dr. Andrew Sandlin. You've heard him on here before, and he is back today. Dr. Sandlin, thank you for joining us, brother.

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Thank you, guys. I appreciate your work so much. You're such a blessing to my heart. Keep doing what you're doing. Thank you, brother.

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Thank you so much. All right, so we're here, and let's see here. Let's start with this.

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Let's start with a little bit of encouragement, all right? So by way of getting into the discussion, let's do the most current stuff, and let's talk about what the president said yesterday during the press conference.

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This is our president, Donald Trump, at near the end of yesterday's press conference with the

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Coronavirus Task Force. He held the press conference, and this is near the end. The video you find may have a different time than this.

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This is about an hour and 35 minutes in on my video, and so I'm going to just play his update because the question is this.

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So give context here for everyone who's watching this, maybe is not fully updated. The question is this. Are you really going to reopen for business,

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President Trump? That's the thing. Are you considering basically reexamining this and then reopening

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America for business? You may have heard our president say that we cannot allow the cure to do more damage than the disease.

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Right. The cure meaning if we shut down all of society and we destroy the economy globally, but in particular for us, the

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United States of America, if we destroy the economy and we make families destitute, then effectively we've now had the cure do more damage than the disease.

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And so Donald Trump is considering reopening for business after I think really a couple more days or a limited time here and getting everyone back to work again.

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So this is the portion. I think you guys should hear this. There are some encouraging words here in this. Oh, my bad.

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Sorry, everyone. Wow. Trump was at his concert, huh? Yeah. Trump's got a little bit of a cyberpunk dark synth going on in the background there.

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Sorry about that. All right. I'm still getting used to the screens here. And right now Isaac's like I said professional guys, professional.

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Yeah. All right. Here we go. Spreading unabated. And how can you be sure that's not going to happen?

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Well, you know, we have now a system and the system's in place. And we have two very, very powerful alternatives that we have to take into consideration.

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And as I said, one of the things that has really gotten me thinking about this.

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Number one, I'm looking at what's going on. And, you know, it's life is fragile and economies are fragile.

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But one of the things is the mortality rate, John. When we first started this, nobody knew anything about this particular virus.

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Very, very little. I mean, we started off we were hearing numbers of 5 percent. That's an astronomical number.

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When the flu is .001 and 2 and 3, right? And so 5 percent would be an astronomical number.

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Now we're seeing numbers that may be less than 1. And that's not including the exercise that I just went through where many people don't report.

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So everybody getting very sick is reporting, but nobody getting, you know, not very sick.

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And that should be part of that equation. So that just keeps reducing the number. So the mortality rate is a, you know, that's a big, to me, that's a very big factor.

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When we were hearing 3 and 4 percent, remember we had one day where we thought it was 5 percent and we were getting a lot of bad numbers from countries that,

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I don't know why, but we were getting a lot of bad numbers. I do wish, again, our relationship is very good with China, but I wish they could have told us about this a little bit sooner.

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You know that. But the mortality rate is a big thing for me because I think we're very substantially under 1 percent now.

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That's, it's still terrible. It's still the whole thing. The whole concept of death is terrible. But there's a tremendous difference between something under 1 percent and 4 or 5 or even 3 percent.

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So that's something that we're learning now. And I think the number may be lower than people think because of what

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I've been saying. Yeah, please. So there you go. That was from yesterday, the most up -to -date numbers.

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And people might be asking the question, like, well, why say that? Are you trying to minimize the seriousness? Let me go on record, make sure it's very, very clear, because this, for some reason, gets missed when people fall off a cliff on either side.

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Yeah. But especially on the side of people who are saying, lock yourself down, shut down society to hell with the economy sort of a thing.

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I'm using that language because that's kind of the flippant attitude. Like, it's just outright, just who cares, destroy the economy.

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When people say that, it's important to take into consideration these things. Number one, our position is this is very serious.

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This is a highly communicable virus. It's always an awful thing when human beings die.

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But we also have to say, with wisdom, what's the world that we live in? We live in a fallen world. Disease, sickness, viruses are a part and parcel to being in a fallen creation.

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And so we are, of course, under the rule and reign of Jesus Christ. He is bringing his dominion all over the earth.

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The kingdom of God and the gospel is spreading all over the world. But in the midst of all of that, there is disease, there is decay, there is death, there is sin, there is theft and murder and evil.

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But we have evil things happening in the world all around us. But we also have these viruses that are killing people.

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And the reason this is vital to consider, in terms of what our president is saying about reopening for business and not destroying more families and businesses, it's vital because we have, on a regular basis, annually, have to contend with the fact that there are diseases, viruses, communicable viruses that are killing large numbers of the population on a regular basis, but we're just so used to it that we don't think about it.

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Now what the president is saying is that we originally were hearing numbers of like 4 and 5 percent, and that was what they were responding to.

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But now that we're looking at the numbers, even with people who are not ultimately reporting, who are asymptomatic or thought they had a cold or a flu, those people aren't even reporting, that would drive the number even more substantially down.

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People say, you know, the more people are coming in, the numbers are going to change. Well, yeah, but also you can consider the people over here that are asymptomatic are not showing the real problem in the hospital.

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Trump is saying that the numbers are showing that it's less than 1 percent. He thinks substantially less than 1 percent in terms of numbers.

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Now people say, well, so what? People are really dying and it's very contagious. Yes, but we have to factor in this important element, and that is that while we see a disease, our president is right.

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We can't allow the cure to be worse than the disease that is maybe 1 percent mortality because we're also going to destroy 100 million, 200 million, a billion people globally in terms of the economy.

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So we have to love both neighbors. Those who are at risk, this virus itself is serious, but also we can't neglect the neighbor.

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This is key, and then I'm going to shut up and let you guys talk to this. Love for neighbor is not supposed to discriminate. It's not supposed to discriminate and say,

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I'm going to love these neighbors but not these. And if we're engaging in a method, in a methodology that says, we're going to love these neighbors but not those, there's an immediate problem because you're to love your neighbor as yourself, and Jesus even tells us to love our enemies.

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And so we can't say, I'll love these neighbors but not this mass over here of 100 million neighbors over here.

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I'm not concerned about their business. I'm not concerned about their well -being and their families right now. I'm concerned over here about the potential of death.

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We face death on a regular basis, and we have to ask the question, how do we handle this with wisdom, with patience, standing on godly principles that love neighbor across the board?

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Yeah, and quickly, I was just going to say that I think what we're trying to do and what we need to be careful of as Christians, we're trying to argue principles here.

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We're not trying to get into debate over the actual numbers or facts because there's so much information, so much misinformation out there.

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We don't want to waste, I don't want to say waste because it's a serious thing, but we want to use our efforts to argue.

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I don't know what's going on. I'm losing my mic. Maybe bring it lower. It just keeps going out. We want to have our arguments based upon principle.

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We want this to be about the gospel, and we want to be calling people to Christ. And I'll be honest,

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I've been very discouraged by just the amount of Christians that are making this the thing that they want to argue and debate is over the numbers and over what could be true and what could not be true when in reality that shouldn't be what we're arguing right now.

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Principles. Principles. We should be, yes, arguing for principles. Very good. So with that, I want to hear

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Andrew. Yeah, no, I agree in substance, I believe, with everything that's been said.

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I think one thing that hasn't been said I think you guys would agree with is one reason for the overreaction and perhaps the principal reason is all of us know that most people do get their information from major media, even on websites, and the major media is not given to Christian presuppositions.

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Now, understand that facts are objective. The real world is objective.

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There's no such thing as private facts. But how we encounter those facts and how we interpret those facts and how we interpret the world is based on our presuppositions.

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So the people who are giving information about this particular virus, think about this, the people who are providing us with information about this virus and the interpretation do not share

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Christian presuppositions. The issue, and Luke, you made a fine point there, the issue is not the specific number.

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We can agree about the specific number. The issue is how do we interpret that number and how do we interpret what to do.

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But when you have so many Christians, 95 % of whom get their information from major media, and that major media is committed to anti -Christian presuppositions, they're not going to get an accurate picture, not just of the statistics, but how to interpret the statistics, which in many ways is most important.

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So let's remember that in this, as in everything else, we need to think as Christians.

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We need to think distinctively as biblical and Christian people. And that includes, and I think perhaps in this case, one of the main things that's been said, is not to practicing what

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I might call selective compassion. Should we have compassion on the elderly and the immunocompromised?

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You bet. If we don't, we're in disobedience to the word of God. In many ways, like the unborn, they're very, very vulnerable, and they should be protected, and they should put policies in place.

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And I believe in legitimate cases, state or local governments can put policies in place to protect them.

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But then to turn around and say, we're going to establish that policy for them, but then apply it to everybody else, when the policy is applied to everybody else, for instance, a quarantine policy, will do drastic damage, drastic damage, to the very most vulnerable people in that group.

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And basically, that's the high -contact individuals, airline stewardesses, flight attendants, and those involved in,

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I think, Jeff, you mentioned a friend involved in restaurants and chefs and people like that. Those are the people that are being harmed most,

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I mean just savaged, by these government overreach policies. Now the question is, should we have compassion also for them?

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Yes, we should. The Bible demands compassion, but it demands compassion according to the second great commandment toward everybody, appropriately, and not just one group.

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And I think the problem with major media is that it focuses attention on one particular segment of the population, particularly if it's given to supporting policies of government overreach and additional government regulation, because that is a part of an anti -Christian presupposition.

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And that's why we have to look at this as Christians and biblical people, and not as non -Christians look at it.

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Yeah, it's, I think, critical to be reminded of the fact that when we say, state by state, city by city, only essential businesses are to be opened, all non -essential businesses are to be shut down right now.

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Remember, there are consequences to that. We're not living in a dream. That's right. There are real consequences to that. People have to feed their families.

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And I wanted to say that, of course, we could make all the arguments about biblical wisdom and finances, and you should have some stuff stored up for cases like this.

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All that is agreed upon. We're pastors. We know God's word. We all agree with that. But there are also people who are plunged into difficult situations that they were faithful in, and it's suffering, and it's a trial.

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How about medical issues that put somebody into financial straits, that they have nothing left, and next thing you know, they're told, shut everything down, and they had nothing left to begin with.

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How are they going to survive the next two, three weeks, or two months, or people have suggested even six months? I don't think it'll go that long, but be that as it may, there are people who live paycheck by paycheck, and how are they going to feed their children and put diapers on their kids?

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You've got to consider, when we say only essential businesses, not non -essential businesses, we have to remember that there's 100 million people standing up in the background with their hands up, and they're saying, but my business is essential to me.

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That's right. My business is essential to my wife and to my children, to my aging parents. My business is essential to my employees that I take care of, and that I provide an opportunity for, and so we have to consider what

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Dr. Sandlin is saying is this, how did you say about, what did you call it, compassion?

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Oh, yeah, we can't practice selective compassion. Selective compassion. That's very, very important.

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Now, here's the thing. I know I can already, again, like I said in the Sunday sermon, I can already hear the keystrokes. People saying, you're minimizing this.

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No, no one's doing that here. No one's calling this a hoax here. No one's calling this virus not serious.

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We're saying absolutely, totally serious, fallen world, have to contend with it. We've got to love each other.

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We've got to protect everybody. But the question is, how do you do that in a balanced perspective? Because Christians tend to leap off of the edge of either side of an issue.

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I'll give you one example I mentioned on Sunday, is people have actually suggested that if you continue to meet for services in this moment, you are murdering your neighbor, literally murdering your neighbor.

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I've been told that on my own page. Now, I want to ask the question, are you going to use that same argument in the next 24 months with the millions and millions of people who are dying in your state from other communicable diseases that even have mortality rates that are equal to this?

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Are you murdering your neighbors because you continue to meet for the gathering of God's people for worship in the midst of those communicable diseases?

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It's a matter of principle and consistency. And so what we're saying is very, very serious, love everybody equally, and make sure we're considering the neighbors who are being decimated financially right now, decimated.

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We're destroying the national and global economy, and love for neighbor demands that you care about that.

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You care about them too. And so, Dr. Sandlin, there are two primary issues right now that I think we have to address, because they're the primary things that people are examining, and they're the swords that are being wielded on both sides of this discussion.

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One is the biblical law and command from Romans 13 to obey your governing authority, submit to the governing authorities.

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The governing authority is God's deacon. It's to wield the sword of justice and to punish the wicked, protect the righteous.

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And so people say, therefore, you need to shut down all of society, destroy the economy. That's fine, because you've got to obey your government.

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Don't meet for corporate worship, because the government says so. And they've made the decree. You have to obey

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Romans 13. The other one, Dr. Sandlin, is love your neighbor. They say, you need to self -quarantine, shut your business down.

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And they'll say, again, I'm using this language to describe just how far it goes.

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People will say, and I've seen it, and I'm sure you have too. They'll say, to hell with the economy.

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We need to save lives. And so they'll say, it's love for neighbor that says you should close your church down right now.

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No more gathering. Love for neighbor says you quarantine for the next couple of weeks until the Romans 13 government tells you you can come away.

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So, Andrew, could you just speak to those just to start the conversation? Those are the two things I see most often appeal to, and I think they're critical as we examine this.

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Yeah, maybe I'll start with that last one first. The notion that lives are more important than the economy is a false dichotomy.

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The fact is, if there is serious and catastrophic economic damage, that will cost lives. In fact, possibly even more lives would have been lost tragically by coronavirus.

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So it's not an issue of money versus dying. It's an issue of lack of money and poverty that often leads to tragic and lethal consequences versus other lethal consequences.

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So we need to take that into account. But back to Romans 13, the Bible's quite clear that the civil magistrate is truly a minister.

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In fact, it's basically the same term that would be used for a minister in a church, though in a different sphere. So the

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Bible's not antinomian. I think one thing that would help us to understand this, guys, and you know and many of your audience do, though perhaps some don't, one aspect of a sector of the

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Reformed faith is sphere sovereignty. God establishes various spheres. There's the family and the church and the state, for example, that have their own specific calling, their own specific way of doing things, their own specific responsibility.

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Though ideally they should work together and with one another, they each have their own separate calling.

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The state has the calling of suppressing evil and in that way protecting liberty and righteousness and so on.

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The church has a different responsibility, preaching the word and defending orthodoxy and the ordinances and the sacraments and so on.

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And, of course, the family has its own calling. Now, the problem is when one of those begins to arrogate to itself authority that has been given to another.

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I think a prime example in this case is prohibition of worship. Now, does the state have a vested interest in the physical health of its citizens under its care?

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Yes, it does. There's no question about that. That's a correct inference, I believe, from Romans Chapter 13. However, that's not the only text in the

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Bible we have to look at. There are texts like Hebrews 10 .25 and other biblical texts that point out the necessity of the church meeting.

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Now, here's where I want to say, and I think, Jeff, you and I either were talking about it, maybe there was a Facebook comment or something that's really vital.

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There is no such thing as the ungathered church. There's no such thing. I mean, the term that we in English, of course, it's the translated church.

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Some people think that's not the best translation. Ekklesia is the assembly. Ekklesia is the congregation.

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It's the gathering. Now, church in English comes from words that mean the Lord's house, and so that might imply a building, though it really doesn't necessarily mean that.

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It could be metaphorical. But the ekklesia is actually the assembly. So not to have an assembly is not to have the church.

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Now, this is something I hope that the ministers listening will think about, and I'm not in any way trying to impose sort of a highly legalistic standard.

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I believe that local elders, and I think you guys would agree with me on this, local elders are given local church leadership the responsibility to make decisions for what is best for their congregation.

29:34

For example, if elders in a congregation with a number of elderly people might make a different decision than those that don't have elderly people,

29:42

I'm willing to grant that. I'm very happy to grant that. But on the other hand, the idea of an unassembled church is false.

29:50

So to say, well, we're going to wait for perhaps a few months and we're not going to assemble, what they're really saying, and this is a weighty thing to think about, and I was thinking about this the last few days, is basically we're going to abolish the church for a while.

30:05

Now, they'll say, oh, no, no, no, we still have the membership roles, and, you know, everybody still is on the phone. Yes, but an aspect of the church, an essential aspect of the church, is the necessity to be an assembly, a congregation.

30:20

And I can assure you that Paul and Jesus and the other folks in the New Testament did not have in mind the Internet. Nothing wrong with the

30:26

Internet. It's being used right now. But the Internet is not a church. So I think at this point, and I really appreciate those pastors

30:34

I've talked to, those with whom I've discussed this, and are prayerfully considering what to do.

30:40

But one thing is certain. If there comes a conflict between what the Word of God requires and what the state requires, by the way, particularly if it's merely an executive decision and it's not a legislative decision, and that's a whole different issue, particularly as to the case of what one man or one woman says in executive order, pitting that against what

31:00

God says the church should do, there's really no question there. There's really no question about what we should do.

31:07

Notice I'm not saying that the church could never, under any circumstances, not meet. But simply bowing to a policy, oh, the state said we can't meet as a church, and therefore we can't meet as long as the state says so, that I believe is not simply wrong, but is in disobedience to the

31:24

Word of God. Yes, and I just want to say we respect and love and honor the brothers, local elders, pastors who have made a particular decision that's right for their body.

31:36

Yes, I agree with that 100%, Jeff. I agree with that. We need to honor them. We need to love them. We need to not cut each other's throats theologically or intellectually on this, but we need to just ask the question in terms of principle.

31:45

And if you're asking us where we're standing as elders and as pastors on this issue, we're saying here are the principles.

31:51

Now I just want to say just a brief thing. We have to be cautious. Brothers and sisters, wherever you fall on this issue, we've got to be so cautious and thoughtful about the implications of what we're saying.

32:02

So for example, when people have said—and this is—I've seen a lot of this. People say, guys, it's no big deal.

32:10

We're the church. We can just watch stuff online. I want to say, guys, pause. Take a breath.

32:16

Because those are the same people you argue against on a regular basis that tell you their reasons for not going to gather together on Sunday.

32:23

They say the same thing, and you've just got to be cautious about how you use that. Because how many times have you guys heard—and

32:29

I know even for those of you guys that are already saying, no, we need to do it for now. We're the church. Let's just watch it online. We're still doing this.

32:35

I'm just saying just be cautious about how you use that because there's going to come a time where this is over, and then you're going to face that argument coming out of the mouth of a person who's just in sin and doesn't go to gather or be under local church authority.

32:48

They're going to say, no, we're the church. We don't need that. It's not really a necessity to gather together.

32:54

I can just watch it online. And you're going to be in the battle with them six months from now going, no, that's not what you're supposed to be doing.

33:01

No, that's not biblical. So all I'm saying is be cautious about the arguments you're making today. Like, no, we're the church.

33:08

We don't need a place. We don't need to gather. We'll just watch it online. I'm saying I've got to confront people like that all the time.

33:15

And so just be careful about using those arguments. So just quickly, I'll say here, I think it's important to note, and Dr.

33:22

Sandlin, I'd like to hear you speak a little more to this. Romans 13 is prescriptive.

33:28

It is not descriptive. And people might be saying, what do you mean by that? What I mean by that is like Romans 13, it tells you what the government is supposed to be and to do.

33:41

It's not descriptive of what they are always doing. That's vital to get.

33:46

Romans 13 is spread like peanut butter at times over all kinds of issues in a dangerous, very frightening way, to be honest with you.

33:53

When people just say, you've got to obey your governing authorities, I would say, really? You believe that in Nazi Germany?

34:00

When the Nazis come and bang on your door, and they say, you tell us the location of all the Jews in the area, and you've got some hiding under your floorboards?

34:07

What if some Christian raises their hand in the background and says, guys, Romans 13, Romans 13, obey your governing authorities.

34:14

Or how about today, more modern context? This happens, I'm sure, globally all the time in different places.

34:19

China, the underground church, Chinese Communist government comes knocking on the door. They say, guys, tell us where all the other underground

34:25

Christians are, and tell us their worship service times. Romans 13, you've got to submit your governing authorities.

34:32

Or do you have the biblical right, and I would say obligation, to resist that kind of wicked action of an ungodly government?

34:41

Oh, Jeff, and I've jumped in all the biblical examples. I mean, the handmaidens in Egypt, and of course the early church, there's so many biblical examples that you could have given.

34:51

That's precisely correct. Yes. No, no, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Famous scene?

34:58

Bow and worship? No, we won't. Daniel. Daniel, exactly. You've got Peter saying the...

35:03

And I think this should do it for all of us. In the book of Acts, you've got Peter and the other apostles commanded, you stop preaching in this name, and then they go right back out and do it again.

35:11

And they're like, didn't we tell you to stop preaching in this name? And then Peter says, we must obey God rather than men.

35:17

Well, really? Were you being disobedient, Mr. Apostle, to submitting to your governing authorities? Or do we recognize that there's nuance to the text?

35:25

Nuance to the text. I think we just lost Andrew. I heard something drop off there. So try to get him back up there, Isaac.

35:30

But there's nuance to the text. And people understand this. And it's not compromise, it's nuance.

35:35

It's taking all of biblical wisdom and God's standards and putting them together. So, for example, we all know this.

35:42

I used it on Sunday. I think it's an excellent example that we can all think about, and it can refresh us in this area. When the

35:48

Bible says, wives, submit to your husbands and everything, we all recognize that if a man comes in with his wife to do pastoral counseling, and we discover that he is being abusive, heavy -handed, mean -spirited, he is just an awful man to his wife, he's actually telling her to do sinful things, we all recognize, no, she doesn't have to submit to her husband.

36:06

Why? Because he's not operating as an authority under God that's obedience to God. He is commanding and doing things that are sinful that God has already spoken to.

36:15

So, no, you are not required, wife, to submit to your husband in that thing.

36:20

But it says, submit to your wives and everything. Do you see how the Bible can be abused? When you take a proof text, you take it out of context, and you use it in a way that the text doesn't even intend.

36:30

So, Romans 13, we believe, and if you know Apologia Church, you know that we are big on sphere sovereignty, and we are big on civil government.

36:39

We think the civil government is supposed to be under God, it is supposed to wield God's just standards. I want the civil government to obey

36:46

Jesus, and actually, to tell the truth, I want the civil government to have more power to wield the sword of justice in God's way.

36:55

I do. I want to say, for example, I think that when a man, we're waiting for Andrew to come on, but just to give an example of what

37:03

I think in terms of, I think the government needs to be more powerful here, and strict, and firm, when a man, and this happens a lot, we know about sex trafficking, when a man kidnaps a child, brutalizes that child, rapes the child, kills the child,

37:16

God's law says, death penalty. Justice is you forfeited your right to live.

37:21

That's justice. We don't do that anymore. We're not concerned about that, overly concerned about justice in that way.

37:29

So I think in many ways, our government isn't just enough. But that's Romans 13, and we've talked about the fact that it's prescriptive, not descriptive.

37:40

Does it teach us? Jeff, could I jump in? Maybe you already said this when I was just coming. This is really important.

37:45

I think those in our tradition, the broad Reformational tradition would argue, and I think this principle is true, that unless the state demands what the

37:55

Bible forbids, or forbids what it demands, we should obey. The issue, of course, comes in conflict.

38:01

A good example is, the utter tragedy that the state permits abortion doesn't mean that I can get a shotgun out and go start shooting police officers.

38:09

The fact that we have an evil state, and the state does evil things, doesn't mean I can disobey other commands.

38:14

But where the state requires what the Bible forbids, and vice versa, that's when we have to disobey.

38:20

And that, I believe, I'm at least suggesting we consider that's the case, and the one we're talking about right now as far as the church meeting for worship on Sunday.

38:29

Yes. So let's leap into this. Yes, go ahead. One, I was going to say, like you just noticed, that the pagan symbol trolls are out.

38:37

Trisetra, Trinity symbol. Hello. And full force today. They're not even listening to what we're saying because they're arguing over the symbol behind us.

38:45

Yeah. But I just wanted to point a couple things before we switch topics at all.

38:52

I want to, again, reiterate what Andrew said. Like, it's, you know, we're not saying that, we're not even saying that we wouldn't shut down church if we felt like our congregation was in danger.

39:04

That's an authority under our, Exactly. Under our jurisdiction. That's our call to make.

39:10

That's the only thing we're saying because I'm hearing a lot of feedback from people saying, well, you're just saying that you're being singled out as a church.

39:16

And, you know, it's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. Again, it's about principle. Like, that's all we're saying. And, you know, like one of you,

39:22

I forget who, one of you was saying like, we're not judging those that had done that. I think you were saying it,

39:27

Jeff. Yeah. We're, that's your decision to make. That's all we're saying. You have local church authority. Yeah. And it's funny because I haven't,

39:33

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen any of the hatred, if you will, coming from people in our position, pastors in our position saying, you're a horrible sinner for shutting down church.

39:45

It's been the opposite. The pastors that have shut down are telling us, you know, you're murdering people.

39:51

You're going to kill people. You know. Is Luke, can maybe this help with that discussion? When you, with what you're saying in terms of local church authority has to make those decisions.

39:59

Yeah. Not just by government decree. What about in Arizona right now where we have a lower number of COVID -19.

40:07

Oh yeah. Coronavirus. Very low. Even two weeks ago. Yeah. What if you have a church that's like out in the sticks in the desert somewhere?

40:13

It's a gathering of say 25 or 50 believers and they're all just in this one town, right? Are they supposed to obey a government decree to not gather for worship?

40:21

They say there are a hundred people or whatever it is. No one's left the town. You see what I'm saying? It's a local church context.

40:27

Why would they have to? And considering the numbers in terms of the mortality rate, it'd be good for that pastor to say, excuse me, we face this all the time in terms of mortality rate.

40:37

We still meet for worship. Yeah. We just need to make sure we're obeying proper government rules about washing your hands, social distancing, proper social distancing.

40:44

Don't hug each other. Don't shake hands. We'll use caution, but we're not stopping the gathering. Local church authority should make that decision.

40:51

Exactly. If you're a pastor at a nursing home next to where a cruise ship offloads from China, Right.

41:03

You might say, From China. It might be a good idea for me to say, let me rework this, meet somewhere else, figure out a new way.

41:09

It just depends on the context, but the local church has the authority to look at the wisdom of the government and say, is that biblical?

41:16

Is it wise? Does it love my neighbor? Yeah. That's the point. Yep. Exactly. So just addressing this,

41:23

I know we're moving super fast here, guys. Thank you guys all for watching and for listening to this. I hope this is very helpful for you.

41:29

The next thing, Dr. Sandlin, I want to address is when we talk about the government's role, we actually agree that when the government makes wise and godly decisions that we weigh in light of Scripture, we should submit.

41:42

So for example, what I said to the church on Sunday was when the government has told us we want lives to be protected, so be washing your hands a lot.

41:50

Make sure you're not touching your face. Practice some basic social distancing. Don't be hugging each other, shaking hands.

41:56

Be very cautious. Limit how much you're going out. Try to keep some distance. If you're sick, stay at home.

42:03

What I said to the church is you're actually obligated to obey that because that is a righteous and biblical thing in terms of the preservation of life.

42:11

So love your neighbor. And so at Apologia, we've gathered. No one's allowed to shake hands. No one's allowed to hug.

42:17

We say to people who are sick, we say, you are to be quarantined. Stay home, away from the body right now because you are ill.

42:24

So we're practicing, I think, those righteous, wise standards. And when the government actually makes those decisions, we should say, you know, right now that,

42:33

I think in the light of Scripture, that's actually a right thing to do. And we should obey that. Yeah, I'd even go beyond that.

42:41

I'd say even when the state enacts legislation or gives edicts that are silly or counterproductive that are not contrary to the law of God, we should obey.

42:50

I mean, a prime example of that is tax law. I mean, thank God for the change in tax law a couple of years ago.

42:55

I think Trump did a generally good job on that. But previous to that, some of the tax law, some of these things are just downright silly.

43:03

Well, in my view as a Christian, I don't have to say, well, they're downright silly, and therefore I don't have to obey them. But, and that's not really an immediate issue here, guys.

43:10

I think we're all agree the issue is when the word of God conflicts with the word of man, there's no question. Now, I know we may dispute when that happens because we're not perfect, each of us is finite, but I think every single session or church leadership, whatever you call your church leadership, local church leadership has to make that decision, and I think the congregation should follow it.

43:32

So, if there's a clear directive from the state that in the church leadership's view conflicts with a clear directive from the scripture, then we have to obey the word of God.

43:41

So, I agree entirely, Jeff. I just want to say that sometimes the state sets forth and enacts legislation that is not anti -biblical, even though it's silly and wrong.

43:53

I think we still need to obey those, and I think you guys would probably agree with that. Mm -hmm. Don't like it.

44:01

Our opposition is always to injustice. God's specific revealed will and mind regarding justice in the world.

44:13

We think that we should, as Christians, be hotly opposed to injustice around us because God's spoken to it, but at times, you're going to have to obey stupid things, like a

44:22

Roman guard says, I want you to carry this for me one mile. Carry my bags. Obey that stupid law.

44:28

Carry the stupid bag. As a matter of fact, go the second mile. Go two miles for stupid laws like that.

44:34

That's what Jesus taught us, and so stupid law, like carry a bag for a soldier, go the second mile.

44:39

No big deal, but when it comes to injustice in the world, sin, and violation of our neighbor,

44:45

Christians should be very vocal, prophetically vocal, balanced vocal, with the word of God against it.

44:53

So I want to address this because I think it's important to note this, Dr. Sandlin. The issue of biblical quarantine, this is powerful.

45:01

We're talking about quarantine a lot, and I think it's pretty cool because this is actually a distinct, distinctly biblical idea and concept.

45:09

In other words, if you're thinking about quarantine right now, you can thank the Torah for it because it wasn't necessarily practiced by pagan nations universally.

45:19

Biblical quarantine is something that the Bible gave to the world, protecting the healthy from the sick. You have numerous examples in the law of God that actually reflect an issue like this where you have communicable diseases, you have people who are among the population, and the priest was supposed to go examine the sick person.

45:40

If they were sick, they were put into quarantine. So again, we're not going to have time to go through all these today, but let's give you some examples so you have a record of them.

45:48

You can look at Leviticus 13, verse 4, 1346. Leviticus 14 .8,

45:53

Numbers 5 .2, Numbers 31 .19. You can look at Leviticus 13 .2

45:58

-5, 13 .31 -33. We can keep going, but the whole thing here is the idea of actually quarantining —please hear me on this— the sick from the healthy is a biblical concept.

46:13

But just because the idea of quarantine is a biblical concept, it doesn't mean that an ungodly government is going to wield it rightly.

46:24

And so we have to ask the question, is it right to quarantine all of the healthy society because of the potential of a sickness that leads to the destruction of the entire society in terms of financially?

46:37

These are real neighbors who are going to be plunged into poverty. We realize that. And so, is it a biblical concept to quarantine all of society because of the potential of sickness?

46:49

I would say no. And then I'm going to say one last word here, and Dr. Sandlin, I'd like you to maybe respond to it. I said this

46:54

Sunday that this is my concern. It's something that's on my mind, and I'm meditating on.

47:00

It seems to me that preemptive quarantine, preemptive quarantine, in principle, is the same as preemptive justice, in principle.

47:09

Preemptive quarantine for the healthy is in principle the same as preemptive justice.

47:14

You guys have all seen the minority report, possibly. We've got the pre -crime idea where you have these people who can see into the future what somebody might do, and then

47:23

Tom Cruise drops out of the ceiling and he arrests that person for what they might have done. So we have pre -crime.

47:28

And we say, no, no, minority report crimes are unjust. You can't do that. And then, we look at, okay, why?

47:35

And people say, because we need to protect the safety and security of society. So, we all recognize that pre -crime, when we talk about preemptive justice, we're opposed to those kinds of laws of preemptive justice, of what somebody hasn't actually done, because it's not right.

47:53

It's not just. They're not guilty. And then, but the argument of the preemptive justice person is, well, we're trying to protect the safety and security of society.

48:01

Well, my argument is, preemptive quarantine for the healthy, in principle, is the same argument.

48:09

We need to protect the safety and security of society, so let's preemptively quarantine all of healthy society, because we don't want to let this devastate us.

48:19

I think we need to consider those principles. Dr. Sandlin? Yeah, well, Jeff, you said it so well.

48:25

There's not much more that I can add to that. I think one, I mean, more broadly, what I can say is, the biblical law is interested in reality as it is, not reality that we can speculate.

48:36

The fact is, God is not interested. God knows all things. He has exhaustive knowledge. Yet, just think about this.

48:42

Now, think about this. Most everyone, every Orthodox Christian listening believes that. God has exhaustive knowledge, including exhaustive foreknowledge.

48:49

Yet, even though God has that exhaustive foreknowledge, He does not establish His civil law that takes that into account, as though we could have that knowledge, and as though we could sort of preemptively ascribe justice, and in this particular case, quarantine.

49:05

I think that says something about God's view of how we ought to operate within society and operate within His law, certainly in the case with quarantine.

49:14

And by the way, that's true of other laws. So I was going to bring up, as you did, Minority Report. That's essentially an unjust, a contra -biblical idea.

49:22

It's not just a bad idea. It's a contra -biblical idea. We need to be thinking about these things. And I think the other thing to mention real quickly, and I'll let

49:30

Luke speak, I think historically, this is one reason that the

49:35

Jews, by and large, were often healthier people. And those who followed the Torah and the Jewish law, historically have, on this issue, on this particular issue of communicable diseases, have been a lot healthier than many other nations because they observed

49:47

God's law. Yeah, that's really good. It was actually, those two things I was just thinking.

49:53

One, in regards to quarantine, I've even seen this from people that we love very much, have said, well, you know, the government, even in the

50:01

Old Testament, had the ability to come in and quarantine a building. I cited some of those examples in the

50:07

Old Testament. I said, yeah, but the difference between that and this is back then, in those times, the buildings that they came in and tore down were known to have...

50:18

They were examined. They knew they were... There was evidence. There was evidence, exactly. And that's the difference between that and what's going on now is it's just a blanket statement.

50:27

You're done. So that was my thoughts on quarantine. The other thing, too, just in the last couple days,

50:33

I've heard some people say, well, you know, I don't like that Christians are... I've seen people comparing this to Nazi Germany.

50:41

And I'm like, well, I don't think anybody's comparing this exact thing to Nazi Germany, but what we're saying is if you open this floodgate, it leads to Nazi Germany.

50:53

Well, can I play something? Yeah. For example, because I was having this discussion last night with my wife.

51:00

I said, look, I don't know if you saw this, Andrew, in Georgia just yesterday,

51:07

I think, or two days ago. It was yesterday. They unanimously gave the governor of Georgia full right to do whatever he felt necessary.

51:17

And it says, they even say, which includes the ability to confiscate personal property and or force vaccinations.

51:27

And they gave him that unanimously. And I don't think he'll do that. I doubt he would do that, but you never know anymore.

51:35

The point is that he now has that power and ability. So it may not be Nazi Germany, but that's where this leads.

51:41

And when you start telling people you're going to get vaccinated or I'm taking your stuff, or people start listening to your phone calls, and I get, no, that's getting way down the line in conspiracy theory.

51:51

My point is, that's not where we're at, but that's where it leads to if Christians just hand over stuff.

51:57

If you give up God's standards of law and culture and society,

52:03

God's standards in terms of what are the limits of government, civil government, or even church government, you're going to collapse under the weight of injustice that you've asked for.

52:13

And all of these things have consequences. You see, we think they don't, but we're at a place today where we are taxed like crazy.

52:23

We have property stolen from us on a regular basis because there were little moves made over time.

52:29

Little moves made over time that essentially said, well, this theft is okay. And it's only a little theft.

52:35

And then it starts to increase to more theft, and more theft, and more theft. And we start having what are rights granted by God and not government trampled on.

52:43

You're going to have tyranny. Nice shirt, by the way. Defying Tyrants. Defying Tyrants since 2010.

52:50

Hey, just in light of what you said, Pastor Luke, I think we can look at this. This is Ted Cruz yesterday. I want you guys to hear this.

52:56

Andrew, I was so excited to show this to you. This is Ted Cruz from yesterday. And the issue right now is that they're trying to put through legislation that's going to help the people that they've destroyed.

53:09

I think it's great. Like, the state says, here's a financial crisis for you, and the people say,

53:16

Oh no! Help! Somebody save me! The state goes, I'll save you. Here's the financial crisis.

53:23

We'll steal more money from you. I'll save you! To pay for the mess we created. Hey, look what I did to you! Help! I got you!

53:29

It's like the government kicks you into the river, and you're like, Help! Someone help! And he goes, I got you!

53:34

It's like, wait. The government throws you overboard and drowns you, and they're like, Oh, we'll help you. We'll help rescue you from drowning. Yeah, this happens all the time.

53:40

Exactly. So this is yesterday. What the problem is right now is they're trying to actually enact legislation that's going to basically give away money we don't have to all the families that have been decimated.

53:51

And the heartbeat behind it, we have to acknowledge, the heartbeat behind it is we want to save lives from the poverty that we're now imposing on people.

53:59

And so let's give away some money to people, do these things, let's save some lives. So the heart behind it, I understand.

54:05

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying I understand the heart. I understand the emotion. But what happened is, the

54:10

Democrats were like, No, no, no. Okay. Yeah, we want to have a coronavirus thing that's going to save lives. But we want it to be 1 ,100 pages with all of our goodies inside there too.

54:19

So listen to Ted Cruz talking about that. But then Nancy Pelosi decided it was time to play politics.

54:28

Decided to throw a grenade into the whole process. And she had a list of over 1 ,000 page bill that she drops out of nowhere.

54:37

And the demand she's pushing, I ask you, do these have anything to do with the coronavirus epidemic?

54:45

A number of people have cited the famed quote from Rahm Emanuel, who's President Obama's Chief of Staff, Never let a good crisis go to waste.

54:54

Sadly, we're seeing the embodiment of that cynical approach right now. Because all the people out of jobs, the

55:00

Democrats are using to push, what are they pushing for? Changing the emission standards on airplanes.

55:09

Mr. President, what the hell do the emission standards on airplanes have to do with thousands of people dying and millions of people out of work in the coronavirus epidemic?

55:23

Don't treat this bill like a partisan Christmas. And by the way, you know, Republicans, we've got things we would like to advance to.

55:30

Things I believe in deeply. You wanna talk about what I'd like to do? I'd like to abolish the

55:36

IRS. Yeah! I've campaigned on that all over the country. I'm gonna continue fighting for that. But, Mr.

55:42

President, I'm not standing here with an amendment saying, as part of this emergency relief, let's abolish the IRS.

55:49

There's a place for that political and policy discussion. The Democrats are pushing wind and solar tax credits.

56:00

Mr. President, what in the hell does a windmill have to do with this crisis?

56:07

And there you go. Other than there's some It's a powerful thing. And, Luke, that's right to your point.

56:12

You give up these rights and standards, you unleash this power to the government, and you're gonna have wicked people like Grandma Gugu who are gonna say, yeah, fine, we wanna save lives too, but how about this special plaza for all these events?

56:29

And let's also, let's do stuff, let's put all of our environmentalism stuff, let's put our activism in there.

56:34

And Cruz is right. What does that have to do with the coronavirus? And money for Planned Parenthood. The problem is, you give these people the power of legislation, if they have wicked hearts and they don't know

56:42

God, they're gonna use it to hurt people. Yeah, exactly. Now this, guys, this was a plan.

56:48

I don't mean a conspiracy, a plan. Some of you saw the story mentioned on Yahoo News and National Review that was after Pelosi met with James Clyburn, a long -time liberal, a

56:58

Democrat from South Carolina, who told in a telephone conference call, he told his caucus members last week, the bill was, a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision, close quote.

57:11

In other words, this is a good time to put in, all sorts of things will help us to restructure the country according to a leftist vision.

57:17

I mean, that's not a conspiracy. I mean, that was quoted and he said it and he was happy to be quoted on it. So that's what's going on, guys.

57:23

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I like that quote, too. Never let a good crisis go to waste. And that's the mindset of people who have fallen wicked hearts who love power, love authority, and have a contrary worldview than the biblical worldview.

57:37

I mean, that's, you just got to, we have to consider that the biblical model of God and government and society is pretty clear and these people don't believe it.

57:46

They don't hold to it. That's right. And the amazing thing, this is what, this is what is just so, we need to be passionate about this.

57:52

You've got people like Dick Durbin. I'm so sorry he has my name. Do you have people like Dick Durbin from, yeah.

57:59

I'm just thinking of Josh Wallace. He always used to call you Jeff Dick Durbin. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about that.

58:05

So you've got people like Dick Durbin and other democratic politicians that have states that are just bankrupt.

58:13

Bankrupt. They have annihilated their local economies. They are just horrible governors and legislators and they've demonstrated that they don't know what they are doing.

58:24

They have a contrary vision of the future and worldview than Jesus Christ and they destroy the world. Now, they leap onto this as an opportunity and it's like, you're trying to shove this stuff into this federal legislation, this national thing, when you can't even manage your own cities, towns, and states without plunging them into depravity and darkness and poverty.

58:45

I mean, how is California doing, guys? How's it doing economically? How are you all doing over there? Good? No, it's terrible, of course.

58:54

And these are people and the great irony is that they enact particular policies that cause economic and not just economic but other devastation.

59:03

And of course, then they say the answer to that is additional interventionist policies that caused the problem in the first place.

59:09

And this has been going on as part of the leftist vision for 50 years. And this is what we're seeing in the present case among many in Washington, D .C.

59:17

Yes. That's right. That's right. So, let's finalize this. I know Dr. Sandlin has to go.

59:23

I want to make sure this is very, very clear. We as believers ought to make sure that we're not approaching this.

59:30

We've tried not to. We've tried not to approach this in terms of being reactionary, just jumping into the stream of public thought and fear and worry and anxiety.

59:42

Christians are not supposed to act like unbelievers. And so, we've felt very convicted about that, very challenged. And of course, we have brothers and sisters around us.

59:49

We'd have to pull back off the ledge and say, trust the Lord and this is what God says.

59:55

But we have to, as Christians, always face difficulties like this and there's going to be more to come.

01:00:00

Fallen world, brothers and sisters, suffering and trials are ahead of us and those are all gifts from God. He has a purpose in all of them.

01:00:07

We have to face them based upon biblical standards, biblical law, biblical principles and not just be reactionary. And so, what we're saying, so everyone can hear us in the final summation of these questions is that we have to uphold

01:00:19

Romans 13 in a biblical context. All of us agree that Romans 13 doesn't teach unlimited obedience to the government.

01:00:27

Every Christian believes that. All of us believe that you can disobey the government when?

01:00:32

When they are not acting according to God's standards and principles. And so, we all have to weigh the decisions of the father and the husband who is head of the house that you must submit to as an authority.

01:00:44

We have to weigh but if he's sinning against God and not acting wise according to God's standards, I don't have to obey him and I hope you know that.

01:00:51

Pastors, we all recognize pastors have biblical authority but what do we say? If your pastor is actually disagreeing with God's standards and wisdom and his word, you don't have to obey that pastor.

01:01:02

Right? That's right. Or are we a cult now and we say, no, this man speaks for God, obey everything he says.

01:01:08

No, we say God's word is the standard. Government is the same way. Government must be obeyed except when they are actually violating

01:01:14

God's standards. And so, our position is every Christian is supposed to believe that. Right? And the second thing is finally, summation, is that we need to love our neighbor.

01:01:23

All of them. All of them. Love all your neighbors. And that means we need to, if we're gathering to any degree, we need to do what we do all year long when we have viruses and sicknesses and diseases that can be spread.

01:01:35

If you love your neighbor, you'll be quarantined when you're ill. Stop coming to church when you're sick.

01:01:41

That's one thing that really bothers me. People come to the church and go, I got the flu right now. Go home! What are you thinking? What are you doing?

01:01:47

That's not loving your neighbor. If you're ill, stay home. If you are in a situation like this where this is spreading quickly, social distancing, proper social distancing is loving your neighbor, washing your hands a lot.

01:02:00

You know what I've done? This is the truth. Every time I go, my hands are cracking. My knuckles are cracking. I've been washing my hands.

01:02:06

You know what I'm doing? I'm washing my hands and I'm actually, like this is an act of worship to God and I'm washing my hands to love my neighbor.

01:02:14

Amen. My knuckles hurt, but I'm obeying the government because they said you need to wash your hands.

01:02:20

So I'm obeying my government out of worship to God and I'm saying I'm going to do this to love my neighbor. If you're going to sneeze, run!

01:02:26

Run out of the room and sneeze into your t -shirt or something right now. Right? Take those proper steps to love your neighbor, but love all your neighbors.

01:02:36

Amen. Don't say to these neighbors over here, you know, who knows how many untold numbers of neighbors that are being plunged into poverty and to possibly a mass depression right now.

01:02:47

Don't say to them, no, I'm not concerned about you right now because I'm concerned about the mortality of these people over here.

01:02:52

We said no, no, all of them, balance, principle, God's law, care about all of them.

01:02:57

And don't be reactionary. Don't be reactionary that leads to the destruction of all of society.

01:03:04

Don't do that. That's wrong. There's something else too I was just thinking of. I know Andrew got to go, so I'll say this quickly.

01:03:11

You know, we're talking a lot about the economy and how this affects economy, but I haven't really heard a lot of people talk about how this affects other people medically and I'm thinking of someone that we know and love very dearly that right now needs blood very badly.

01:03:24

Yes. And she can't get it. Yes. Because the government said no, your levels aren't low enough.

01:03:29

It didn't even dawn on me. And so when your levels drop low enough, then we'll give you blood. It didn't even dawn on me. That's right.

01:03:35

And so it's also, I mean, these drastic laws and reactions are even hurting people medically that don't have the corona.

01:03:45

Right. That's right. That's right. I didn't even think about that. I just thought about it just now. I was like, oh my gosh. Well, we've got people around us we love and care for.

01:03:53

Yeah, no, I'd like to conclude with a caution to your wonderful audience for no one there to assume that the major media in addressing this and on major websites,

01:04:03

TV and so on are neutral. Understand that while they can give facts correctly, their interpretation overall will be driven by a non -Christian worldview.

01:04:13

And that's why I'm trying, I would encourage everyone to get into the Word of God, get good materials from ministries like Apology, Center for Cultural Leadership, and others that are offering a distinctly

01:04:22

Christian worldview, which means a biblical worldview, so that you'll be equipped, intellectually and spiritually and morally, emotionally equipped to address this issue.

01:04:31

Yes. Dr. Sandlin, we love you. Love you, guys. Appreciate all you're doing.

01:04:37

Yes, real fast. Tell everyone where they can go to get more from you. Oh yeah, just go to ChristianCulture .com.

01:04:43

ChristianCulture .com. You can go, just look me up on Facebook and also my DocSandlin .com

01:04:48

and just so many materials there. You can get everything there. Thank you guys for all you're doing and appreciate the opportunity.

01:04:55

Love you, brother. We'll talk to you soon. Love you, guys. See you soon. Alright, bless you, brother. Alright, guys. In person and not virtually,

01:05:01

God willing. I know. Yes, that's what I'm looking forward to, brother. Alright, everyone, stay with us. We're not done. Andrew's gone for now, but we are not done.

01:05:07

We are going to come back and have a little further discussion, a little bit more, talk to you guys, maybe answer some of the questions that are coming through for you guys who are live.

01:05:15

We'll try to do that right now for you guys. Thank you all for watching. Make sure you guys share, like the episode. If you're not subscribed yet to Apologia Studios, subscribe, and again, go to ApologiaStudios .com,

01:05:26

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Stay here. Commercials, we're coming right back. of work and rest and that stimulates creative discussion for engaging with and shaping culture to the glory of God.

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01:07:19

Lordship of Jesus Christ over all life and culture. I want their faith to not just be something that stands, but something around which culture can be built.

01:07:40

We want students who can think critically about arguments, but also about the culture around them that can then speak clearly to it and that also have the ability to influence and shape because of the power of their message because that's really what the gospel does.

01:07:55

The gospel throws down all the arguments against it, it speaks to the hearts of people, it influences, and it changes.

01:08:08

The goal for New St. Andrews College as it trains its students is not to make people who will be able to go out and just get jobs, people who will just be bricks in the wall of our society.

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The goal for New St. Andrews College is to make students into men and women who will really impact culture.

01:09:18

Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:10:30

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:10:54

Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:11:32

Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:11:52

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:12:08

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:12:14

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:12:21

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry.

01:12:28

Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. We're going to talk about eschatology.

01:12:33

We're going to talk about end times stuff. End times stuff. Does any of this have to do with the great tribulation of Matthew 24,

01:12:40

Luke 21, Mark 13? If you're hanging on and you're not going anywhere, let me just go ahead and give you a little whet your appetite a bit.

01:12:47

No. Nothing. Nothing right now. That's simple. Has anything to do with Matthew 21,

01:12:52

Luke, sorry, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. And if you want an extended discussion on this, look through the feet at Apologia Studios.

01:13:00

We just did a long sermon series through Matthew 23 and 24 and connected it to as much of the

01:13:06

Bible as we possibly could without going 20 years on that part of the series. But we're going to talk about that in just a moment here.

01:13:12

But let's just start by talking about what happened in Kauai. We have a church plant on the island of Kauai, and that is a smaller community.

01:13:24

Kauai has about 70 ,000 permanent residents. The only way they really thrive is based upon the tourism that takes place there.

01:13:33

Now, we recognize that we've got to be cautious in Kauai because people coming in may be carrying the virus. We reckon all that makes perfect sense.

01:13:40

Of course, you've got to take steps and precautions to love your neighbor. All that makes perfect sense. But you have to consider something.

01:13:46

Kauai right now is under essentially a travel lockdown. And so anybody comes into Kauai has to get a 14 -day quarantine.

01:13:56

And so what's happened is the state of Hawaii made some decisions in term immediate decisions, immediate, fast decisions related to shutting down commerce.

01:14:08

And what that effectively did is it put a ton of families out of work. And this is very, very heartbreaking.

01:14:15

We need to care about these people. We have to. We have to care about these people. And you might be saying, what do you mean care about them?

01:14:21

We're trying to care about them. I'd say, well, think about the context of Hawaii. Hawaii is very expensive. I mean, living there is very, very difficult.

01:14:29

I mean, the groceries are expensive. Just being on the island is expensive.

01:14:35

I mean, we have our pastor on the islands has a very small apartment with no air conditioning.

01:14:41

And they pay about $2 ,000 a month for this teeny tiny little apartment with no air conditioning.

01:14:47

It's in no way extravagant. Some of you guys will probably look at this and say, my bedroom's as big as that apartment.

01:14:53

And you'd be right. And it's very hard to live there. Very expensive.

01:14:59

It's pricey. Everything is high cost. Some families on the island of Hawaii have two or three families living together in one home.

01:15:06

In one home just to be able to pay rent and to make ends meet so they'll collectively come together.

01:15:12

Check this out. I know about situations, and this can be a normal experience in Kauai.

01:15:18

It's so expensive to have a home there that you have multiple families living in a house. And you'll have actually them renting out their backyard.

01:15:26

Their backyard. For a tent. Yeah, backyard for a family. I saw a single mother with,

01:15:32

I think, two kids who was renting out a backyard to live in. Because there's not a lot of space to rent from on the island.

01:15:38

It's highly expensive. Now, watch this. Plunge the people of Kauai into a situation where you shut down all commerce.

01:15:46

All commerce. Shut down, right? And they even have a curfew now, a lockdown from 9 p .m. to 5 a .m.

01:15:52

How that's going to help, not exactly sure. Most people are in bed that time. Not like a lot of people are spreading the virus at that time.

01:15:58

But they did it. So, okay, 9 p .m. to 5 a .m. But you shut down the commerce, essentially, on the islands.

01:16:04

What are these families that are living on the edge of financial collapse on the regular, what are they going to do?

01:16:13

Well, I'll tell you what they do is they immediately go to the state for help and they go to try to get unemployment. But what happened is you plunge so many people on the island of Hawaii, on the islands of Hawaii, into financial difficulty.

01:16:25

Guess what? The unemployment system broke down. It was unavailable.

01:16:31

I saw that the website crashed. It crashed. So many people were put into poverty situations that the unemployment system crashed.

01:16:40

And so that shows you how many people were affected by it. A lot. And I'm saying, love for neighbor demands of me to show concern for them.

01:16:51

And to say that we need to take principled measures, wise measures, righteous standards, and we need to apply those and not just be reactionary.

01:17:01

Because, again, if you heard the beginning of the show, you know that President Trump has been looking at the most current numbers. And somebody said, well,

01:17:07

I'm looking at different numbers. Guys, look, whatever you think of Trump, you have to admit that the advisors he has and the people he's talking to know more than you.

01:17:16

And if the information that he's getting is the mortality rates now look about 1 % or substantially lower, especially of people not reporting or asymptomatic or thought it was a cold or the flu or whatever, show us that not that this isn't serious.

01:17:30

It is. It's very communicable. It's highly contagious. But the mortality numbers that we're looking at show us that this is similar to things we have had to deal with before and do deal with on an ongoing annual basis.

01:17:44

And here's the point. We don't destroy the entire economy and put hundreds of millions of people into financial collapse because of these things with these kinds of mortality rates.

01:17:55

So we need to be wise. We need to be measured, cautious, slow, thoughtful and love all of our neighbors in the midst of this.

01:18:03

And that matters. Love for neighbor. I just going to give a shout out to a broader kind of one.

01:18:11

Yeah, that's right. Kind of. Oh, he's in the feed right now. I just asked him. I actually texted him because I was curious.

01:18:16

He's his work's been cut down to three to four days a week. Three to four days a week. He's in the he works for hotel maintenance for hotel.

01:18:23

So that's all tourism. Yeah. How are you going to survive? Yeah. He's got three beautiful little children.

01:18:29

How are you going to survive? Yes. Yes. So be in prayer for Kano. Be in prayer for the islands, the people on the islands.

01:18:37

All right. So here we go. Just a quick discussion because it comes up a lot. I've noticed that as coronavirus has spread, so has the hysteria and so has the eschatological fervor, the end times fervor.

01:18:51

You have people who are suggesting, oh, these are the plagues and pestilences promised. These are the things that Jesus promised,

01:18:57

Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. And then people start sharing, here's the earthquakes that are happening and all the rest.

01:19:04

Brothers and sisters, let me just say this as humbly and respectfully as possible. 2 ,000 years of church history.

01:19:09

Do you realize that this is what everyone always does? Do you think people weren't referring to this during the time the

01:19:15

Spanish flu? Do you think that 200 years ago, Christians weren't trying to appeal to earthquakes happening in their days or pestilences and plagues that were happening in their days?

01:19:25

As we are in the end times at any moment, the tribulation, all the rest. Listen, what we're seeing right now with coronavirus is another example of a fallen world.

01:19:35

We deal with it all the time. Every year, millions and millions of people die from communicable diseases and viruses.

01:19:42

And we have to ask the question, does that mean that now this is it?

01:19:48

This is what it looks like for Jesus to put all of his enemies under his feet? Really? 1 Corinthians 15,

01:19:54

Paul gives a timeline of history. I'll challenge you to go look at it. Just go read it. Inspired Apostle. Don't take Pastor Jeff's word for it.

01:20:00

Go read the Inspired Apostle's timeline of history. He says Jesus is reigning now, and he must reign.

01:20:07

And he quotes the most popular verse from the Old Testament quoted from in the New Testament. And that is Psalm 110.

01:20:12

He must reign until all of his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. And then he says, and the last enemy defeated is death.

01:20:19

So death is finally defeated after all of Jesus' enemies are defeated. And he's ruling and reigning on the

01:20:24

Davidic throne now. His kingdom is a present reality. And that gospel the Bible teaches must go to the ends of the earth.

01:20:31

Isaiah 42. The coastlands are waiting for his law. He is going to establish justice in the earth.

01:20:40

Of the increase of his government, Isaiah 9, 6 -7, there will be no end to the increase of his government and of peace.

01:20:48

He shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. Psalm 72. Listen, the

01:20:54

Bible has a very clear vision about Abraham's descendants being more numerous than the stars.

01:21:00

That this Shiloh who is to come, Isaiah 52. Sorry, Isaiah 49 -10.

01:21:08

Shiloh, to him shall be the obedience of the nations. Jesus' call of the Great Commission is to go win the world, all the nations, to him.

01:21:17

And to teach them to obey after baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You see, the Bible has a vision of the future that's very different from what we have currently in the modern.

01:21:26

And I want to say that Matthew 24 has a specific context. He's condemning religious leaders in his day, telling them what's about to befall them.

01:21:34

And he tells them that their generation will not pass away until all these things take place. What things?

01:21:40

All the things he discusses in the Great Tribulation passage. The persecutions, all the things related to all of the destructive consequences to society.

01:21:50

All those things. Jesus says all these things will take place before that generation passes away. And he connects, by the way, all those things to the destruction of the second temple.

01:21:58

The second temple is going to be destroyed. Not one stone left upon another. Here's all the things that are going to take place.

01:22:04

And if you're wondering, how does it all work out, go listen to the series that we did. It only took us like 10 years through Matthew 24.

01:22:12

My church likes to always remind me of that. We spend a lot of time there. I think because it's an important issue, and people will wonder,

01:22:18

Pastor Jeff, why are you spending so much time on the Great Tribulation, Matthew 24? My church might even be asking the question.

01:22:24

Pastor Jeff, why so much detail? Why so much detail? Why two weeks on one verse in Matthew 24?

01:22:30

And my answer is, because of times like this. Because of times like this.

01:22:36

You see, we can see Matthew 24 as something that actually vindicates Jesus as a prophet, because he knew the future and he nailed it, and it vindicates him as Messiah.

01:22:45

And it's something that already occurred in history, that was promised in history at a particular time.

01:22:50

Or we could totally do damage to the text, and we could sell it as fear, like Jim Baker does.

01:22:57

Right? We could profit off of it. I'll tell you what, right now. The profitable eschatology, the one that's most profitable, is the eschatology of fear.

01:23:07

Cheese sauce tastes like queso. It tastes like queso, Jim Baker. What's her name? Mrs. Baker.

01:23:12

What's her first name? It's not Tammy Faye anymore. No, it's not Tammy Faye. That was the 80s. I can't, anyways.

01:23:17

But the eschatology that sells, where it's profitable, is that eschatology.

01:23:23

It's very profitable. It doesn't really profit you financially much to say that Jesus is going to have victory over the world, and that his gospel is going to fill the whole earth and conquer the whole world.

01:23:34

One king over the whole earth. The Bible teaches very plainly that the gospel is like a mustard seed that becomes a large tree.

01:23:40

It's like leaven in a lump of dough. It permeates the entirety of the loaf. We're at a stage in history—let me say it this way.

01:23:47

People say, hey, how's that post -millennialism working for you? Same way it's been working for 2 ,000 years.

01:23:54

Jesus is ruling and reigning. His gospel is bringing the nations. Nothing about post -millennial eschatology teaches that life is going to be wonderful and beautiful and awesome all the way through, as the kingdom of God expands around the world.

01:24:06

There's going to be persecutions. There's going to be difficulties. There's going to be death. There's going to be disease. As Jesus has that leaven work its way throughout that loaf, and it will.

01:24:17

And I'm saying this. It's beautiful. Jesus is putting every single enemy under his feet, making them a footstool for his feet.

01:24:25

And that's what's happening right now. You can believe in the victory of the Messiah because the Bible promises it, and endure all the trials and difficulties and sufferings that this fallen world has to offer.

01:24:36

But he is reigning, and he shall have dominion. And that's what

01:24:42

I'm looking forward to. This is another moment in world history being put under the feet of Jesus.

01:24:48

He's in charge. I've been thinking a lot about that, actually. We need to be encouraging the culture to kiss the sun, right?

01:24:59

Right. We've been saying for a while that our culture is under God's judgment. I think this is just trying to think long -term and post -millennial.

01:25:10

I think this is God just pruning, just cleaning up things for the next part of church history under Christ's kingdom.

01:25:21

And it's not just here and there. It's globally. And so I really think that God's church is going to grow through this.

01:25:31

Oh, yeah. It's growing us now. Yeah, exactly. I posted the other day.

01:25:37

Like I said, we've been under God's judgment. The actual virus itself isn't the judgment.

01:25:49

I think that's part of it. I think what we're seeing outside the effects of the virus is really

01:25:56

God's judgment on us, and pruning us, and cleaning things up. Because that's what's creating chaos and destroying things.

01:26:04

It's not the virus. It's the mass hysteria. It's the shutting down of things. It's people's idols being torn down with money, comfort.

01:26:13

Those are the things that people cling to, that they worship. And when they're gone, they're left with nothing.

01:26:19

And so that's the time that they're going to look to Christ. So I think it's scary as it can be.

01:26:25

I think if you're thinking appropriately when it comes to eschatology, it can actually be encouraging.

01:26:32

And it's like, now's the time for reformation. Let's get this done. Amen. Amen. All right, guys.

01:26:37

Thank you all for watching today. We are so grateful to God for you, for all of your encouragement.

01:26:45

Let's end with what Pastor Luke was just talking about. Let's use this as an opportunity to proclaim the gospel. The amazing thing is that this time people are thinking more about death, their own mortality, than they were a month ago.

01:26:58

And so people tend, and someone said this at church this weekend, to be very chatty during times of difficulty like this.

01:27:05

I remember after 9 -11, when that happened, I went down the Mill Avenue, and I remember the streets were filled with people, and everybody was talking.

01:27:11

We did evangelism there all the time, and we were hard -pressed to get people to actually stop to talk to us.

01:27:16

But man, that night I was there till like all the wee hours of the morning talking, because everybody wanted to talk, because they were thinking about death.

01:27:23

It's a great time to preach the gospel, to call people to repentance of faith in Jesus Christ. Use it.

01:27:29

Use it for the gospel. Use it for the gospel. People are thinking right now about death, and they're focusing inward right now.

01:27:36

Death has the ability to focus the mind. Somebody, by the way, posted that the other day. Death has the ability to focus the mind. They put

01:27:41

Jeff Durbin. I actually learned that from my sensei, James White. Dr. White taught me that.

01:27:47

Death has the ability to focus the mind. That's actually his. I stole that. I've taken pretty much everything from my teacher.

01:27:54

He called me his Padawan yesterday. I saw that. I was like, oh, I like that. After he apologized, apologist shamed me.

01:28:04

Yeah. Did he? Because I didn't know who Gary was. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like,

01:28:10

I'm just going to leave this. I'm going to go now. My knuckles are hurting so bad right now. Hey. They're so itchy. I was just going to say, along these lines before we leave,

01:28:18

Pastor Zach right now preaching the gospel at Costco. That's right. Pastor Zach's out preaching the gospel at Costco.

01:28:24

Praise God. Basta. Basta. You know what's my favorite thing right now?

01:28:31

What? China. China. I saw a meme the other day. It was so hilarious. It was just the mouth?

01:28:39

Did you see the one where it was him? It's a chai, and I can't stress this enough. No. I've watched that clip so many times.

01:28:49

It's my favorite thing. China. I can't even do it like him. China. It's awesome. I'm trying to be accurate. Hey, if you guys want to do something fun, enjoy yourselves on this one.

01:28:56

You're on YouTube. Oh, man. Go look up.

01:29:02

It's Vic Berger, right? Yes, Vic Berger, B -E -R -G -E -R, on Jim Baker.

01:29:08

So it'd be like Jim Baker, Vic Berger, and enjoy. He did such a wonderful job of editing down that charlatan's content on the end times buckets, end times gravy.

01:29:19

Basta. Basta. Yeah. Whoa. Hold on.

01:29:25

There you go. One time. Just real fast. Give you a little sampling. Just give you a little sampling here. I hope I don't get a copyright strike from this.

01:29:31

We're at the end, so. Yeah. There you go. Go ahead, Isaac. Put this up.

01:29:37

We have begun. And it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

01:29:47

Be prepared. This is it. This is it. It is. It is. It is. I'm telling you.

01:29:52

So the Lord said to me, basta. I'm telling you, it's enough. Basta, Satan.

01:30:04

Stop it. Oh, God.

01:30:11

That sounded so horrible. Oh, wow. So there's a little sampling. If you haven't seen it yet, you should really go check out some

01:30:18

Jim Baker end times buckets, end times gravy. We love you all. Thank you, guys.