TiL- Southern Baptist Pastoral Ordination

Welcome to the Truth in Love podcast. We are thankful that you're with us tonight. We're gonna have a good episode in our series of pastoral ordination. Tonight we are going to learn about ordination in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Stick.

With us. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome back to the love podcast. Southern.

Baptist Convention ordination. Wow, this is gonna be interesting. Our whole series I think is gonna be interesting and I hope we can we can learn from one another. And as we stated in the intro podcast of the series, we hope that pastors and leaders can join in the conversation, join in these podcasts and glean and learn from one another.

I think there's so much to be learned from one another in our different denominations because nobody has a complete 100 handle on God's Word. We're not perfect. We can definitely learn from one another.

Iron sharpening iron and I look forward to it. We have a special guest tonight, Pastor Jonathan Foster from Vertical Life Church. How are you doing brother? Doing good guys. Thank you for having me on.

Absolutely. Dan, how are you doing my.

Friend? I'm doing pretty good. Trying to stay warm. It's cold outside. Good, good,.

Good. Jonathan and I, we're in the wonderful state of North Carolina where we have not got any snow yet, but Dan up in New York, he has got a little bit, right?

A little bit. We've had probably a total of three inches all year. Nice, nice. Good deal.

That'll be our cumulative for the whole winter. I mean it was a nice freezing 60, 62 degrees today. You know, we were suffering through it. I had a high of like 34.

Well, like always, the comment line is open. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know if we can pray for you. If you have any questions, comments, or critiques, we're open to that as well, but let us know you're watching.

Say hello and let's jump into pastoral ordination in the Southern Baptist Convention. Jonathan, question number one and Dan, you start with that one because question number two is kind of the one that I threw in there.

So Dan, start us off with question number one. All right, question number one. I think we're.

Going to start off with this question with just about everybody. In your own words,.

What is pastoral ordination? So first of all, let me say I don't know that I can speak for all Southern Baptist Convention churches, but I've been raised Southern Baptist all my life. The church I currently pastor is affiliated with Southern Baptist, but we would look non-denominational if you were to show up.

It's kind of what we would look like stylistically, but doctrinally and missionally, those kinds of things we do align with Baptist things in a lot of ways. We would just say we're Baptist plus, and so it's probably what we would define ourselves as in a lot of ways.

But pastoral ordination, and it kind of gets into question number two, but pastoral ordination is a consecration, in my opinion, of a person that is set apart for the ministry of the gospel. And in Southern Baptist life, there is not necessarily an ordination to multiple positions.

It's not like an ordination of children's pastor or those kinds of things of that nature, something specific. It is an ordination to the ministry of the gospel or an ordination of minister of the gospel is what that would be defined as.

And so it is a very general, very broad ordination. But ideally, in my opinion, it is, in my own words, it would be a setting apart of a person who has said, I have a call to ministry. Then that person has been evaluated and then placed in a position.

The other thing that I would say, ordination, to make sure that it's very clear, and I think we get into that in later questions too, but I think it's important to put it right on the front end for Southern Baptist.

Southern Baptist, the key word in Southern Baptist life, which I don't necessarily a hundred percent agree with, but it is a reality. The key term is autonomy of the local church. And so ordination for Southern Baptist isn't necessarily a denominational ordination.

It is a local church ordination. So the local church has the authority to ordain pastors. And so when one is ordained, even though they may be a facilitation by a local association, a local group of pastors that help question and interview and come alongside of a local church, it's not necessarily a denominational ordination, but it is facilitated and applied through the local church and the autonomy of the local church.

And so I don't know that specifically, and that's why we're talking about pastoral ordination in the Southern Baptist Convention. I don't know that the Southern Baptist Convention itself, as far as a state convention or a national convention, actually has a Southern Baptist ordination as it would be in other denominations.

Presbyterians, you are ordained through the denomination or Pentecostals, Church of God, those things. That is a denominational ordination, licensure and ordination. Whereas Southern Baptist, because of the autonomy of the local church, it is facilitated through the local church.

And so I think that's a couple of important distinctives right out the gate. But in short, I feel like across the board, pastoral ordination, in my opinion, can be defined as a person who has a call to the ministry of the gospel that is visible by other leaders.

And then it's a person that is set aside or set apart with that specific authority and role of pastor or minister of the.

Gospel. So. I didn't think about adding this question until just now when I was listening to you talk about it, but I think you'll be familiar with it. So I'm going to throw it in there. And it may be different in different denominations.

I know of it because of I'm coming from the same similar background, and I don't know how prevalent it still is now, but I know it was prevalent when I was going through the process. So the term license to gospel ministry, that seemed to precede ordination.

Do you have an idea of what the difference is and why there's why there's the license of gospel ministry and.

Then ordination? Can you explain that? Yeah. So licensure license to preach is what they would call it. That is typically it does precede ordination. And in the Southern Baptist, it is viewed a license to preach is an affirmation on a person's life again through their local church or through through a local association.

It could be or those kind of things that there's an evidence on a person's life that it is clear that they've been called to preach that they have a call to do that. And so a license to preach could be that it's a certificate of affirmation that this person is gifted with with exhortation or the gift of teaching or those kind of gifts.

It's like a statement of affirmation. Ordination typically happens when a person takes an actual position. And so licensure is preceding it. That's a young man that would feel a call to ministry, feel a call to preach, but perhaps has not been called to a local church, but yet still has that calling on his life.

So then his local church says, well, we want to affirm you in your call, even though we're not hiring you or calling you as a pastor, we want affirm you in your call. So through this local church, we're going to give you a license to preach or affirm you in your gift of preaching.

And it literally is a certificate that's filled out in form. And you're under the watch care of your local church until there is a placement into a permanent position. In that permanent position, then the two churches traditionally would come together for an ordination service of that young pastor or of that new pastor if he's not been ordained before.

And so this is my story, by the way. So I surrendered to a ministry in November of 1998. Then my home church licensed me. I went through a process in the local church there to be evaluated by the deacons.

You usually have trial sermons, you get up and preach, you have Q &A, they question you, they check your testimony, those kind of things. And then there's an evidence in your life that, hey, yes, it's obvious this guy has a call to preach.

So then my home church licensed me, but it wasn't until years later that when I came on staff over here in Maiden at Mountain View Baptist Church in Maiden, even as a youth pastor, then at Mountain View, coming on staff there, they said, have you ever been ordained?

And I said, no, I've been licensed. And so then I was there for about a year. And that's a process in itself to see their testing, to see about your longevity in ministry. Is this something that you want to preach every now and then, or are you really called to vocational ministry, I guess is what I'm saying.

And so once that affirmation comes through the local church that you are going to be in vocational ministry, then that's typically when that church says, hey, we want to ordain you. And so ordain you as a vocational minister of the gospel.

And so the difference between licensure and ordination, one is an affirmation of a call. The second one is affirmation into a local position traditionally. Does that make sense? How long did each of those steps take for.

You? I mean, the actual examination and all of that. It all depends on the local church.

Well, I mean, in your case. For me, in my case, it was the licensure took about um, maybe two meetings and two trial sermons. So it was very light. The, the ordination, um, in of itself was even lighter.

It was one meeting. Um, and, and so, um, so that's why I'm glad you asked me toward the end. Uh, we'll talk about vertical lice process of ordination versus what needs to happen. So, uh, I'm thankful for this process.

Don't get me wrong because it does put you in contact with, uh, older pastors with longevity. So here locally where Robert and I live in the Lincolnton area, we have the South Fork Baptist Association.

Um, I'm not sure if it's still active or not currently, but I assume, sorry, I'm getting a phone call. Um, I assume that it is, but there was an ordination council that is a part of the association. That ordination council is a group of six to eight pastors of the local association.

And I think there's 52 or 56 or maybe 60 now churches in this local association that we say that we're cooperatively working together over this region of those 50 to 60 churches. There's six to eight pastors every year that I go through a rotation process of being on ordination council.

And so, so then when a local church says, Hey, we, we have a guy that we want him to be ordained, but we won't outside objective eyes to question him on doctrine, theology, all this kind of stuff. Then that council is convened and that pastor or that young man goes and sits before them.

And then they ask him every question that they can think of. Um, and so if you pass that, well, then it's like they sign your certificate and then you have an ordination service at the local church and boom, you're ordained.

So that's why I would, uh, on this front end of it, say that of all the ordination processes that I know of Southern Baptist are probably the, the, it doesn't mean it's not serious when I say light. Okay.

Um, I do think, um, the process of the local church is important. Um, if done correctly, I think it can be a long, it should be a longer process. Um, but, um, but as far as the actual steps, um, it can be as simple as one meeting and one ordination service.

And a person is considered ordained as a minister of the gospel. And so, so if a guy's a good talker, he can, you know, talk his way in through it. In my opinion, it can be a very light process. It's not very cumbersome, not very heavy, um, and oftentimes taken very lightly.

And, and in my opinion, that's, that's not good. Um, so I've expressed that before and it, and some people was, yeah, we agree with you.

And then nothing changes. So it's okay. I want to jump into this next question. And this question kind of comes from me. It comes from a kind of different areas. One from things that I've been thinking about, um, things that I've been seeing and pondering, and there's, there's kind of two parts to it.

Um, so let me read the question and, and hopefully we can explain it well. Um, people often ask, is this biblical? It is also said as a, as a statement, this is biblical. And I found that saying something is biblical can mean two different things.

Um, and let me stop right there because there's going to be two parts. Um, I found an example online and I'm going to share that example online because, um, the, the first part is kind of a, a pastoral question for you.

How, how would you handle this conversation? The, the clip that I'm going to show you is kind of, well, not kind of, but it is on the extreme end of, um, this, this problem or, or what I'm seeing. So you got two people and they say, based on their interpretation, they're saying this is biblical.

And the other guy says, no, this is biblical. So how pastorally, if you're not in one of the extreme settings, how would you, um, how would you work through that with somebody who you have a difference of opinion with, or you're, you're walking with two different people and they have differences of opinion.

And one says, this is biblical. And the other one says, no, this is biblical. So let me play the clip and I'll let you answer that question first. And then we'll ask it a different way that kind of leads into the ordination question.

So here is the clip for you. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I gave you the scriptures.

He gave you his version. It's always somebody else's version. Hold on. Hold on. No, no, this is nonsense. Came up with your scriptures and gave your interpretation of them. I gave my, I gave you the Bible interpretation of the Bible.

I gave more Bible than you did for a fact right there. All right. Oh, really? That's a fact. Well, I'll tell you what, how about, how about in your rebuttal, I'll keep my mouth shut. And you tell me how wrong I was about your misapplication of the ring stabbing in Joe chapter 38.

First of all, is it sunrise or not? Not, not at all. I don't agree. Turn his mic off. Get out. You're a Bible denier. You're a Bible denier. You're a Bible denier. That is ridiculous. Bible denier. Just get out.

Okay. There's a lot of things that we could.

Critique about, about that clip and what went on. But the example was you had one guy that's saying, I gave you Bible. And the other guy saying, I gave you Bible. And they're both thinking they have the right biblical interpretation.

How do you walk with, with that somebody in that conversation? That's less extreme, less extreme than this example. So the first thing I would say.

To those two guys is the Bible tells us to avoid foolish arguments. Paul explicitly tells us that. And that right there is foolishness. I would tell them both that is, that is silly and that is immature.

And that is a, that is a slap in the face to brothers who should be brothers and speak to one another tenderly and kindly, even in disagreement. And so I'm, I'm thankful for the network that we have that, that there's things that we lovingly would go toe to toe on.

But at the end of the day, we're, we're not going to be throwing around slurs at each other or whatever. So, so what you do though, in those situations, it, it, number one, from a pastoral standpoint, and I have this in, in my congregation, we're, we are, I, I hate that I missed the conversation on Calvinism the other night.

But we would consider ourselves a Calvinistic reformed theology church, especially in soteriology, especially when it comes to the studies of salvation. You know, we're very reformed in that. It's God caused, God given by the grace of God, the mercy of God, through the love of God, even faith itself, the gift of God.

Never by works, lest any man could boast. I mean, like it's, we are, we are sovereigntists to the, to the, in salvation, especially to the teal. That doesn't discredit man's responsibility at all. Scripture very plainly gives man responsibility to respond, but even the gift and the ability to respond comes from God.

And so, so when it comes to those kinds of things, in our church, there would be people that are in journey with what I just said in my church. I mean, that's said under my preaching every Sunday that are actively involved, they're leaders in our church.

When it comes to eschatology, you know, we, we love to spar with each other when it comes to end times discussions and those kinds of things. And so pastoral relief, number one, when it comes to scripture, I try to help people have an understanding of where someone is at.

There are maturity levels, there are understandings, there's study, there's educational processes. So number one, just be kind and patient with each other. Just because someone doesn't agree or believe with where you're at, doesn't mean that's not where they'll end up, you know, or vice versa.

I could be wrong. I could be, and I want to be humble enough to say this is my best of understanding, from my study, from my research, from my exegesis, not eisegesis of scripture, but from my exegesis of scripture, this is where I'm at, but I appreciate where you're at and let's, let's dig together, you know, that kind of stuff.

And I think that's what we attempt to do. So with debates like that, there's a lot of eisegesis going on. There's a lot of experiential, Hey, this is what I've experienced. So therefore, this must be doctrine versus this, what you've experienced.

And therefore this must be doctrine. And, you know, it just becomes very ugly and silly. So, so pastorally we strive for unity. I think that's, that's the whole key. And so being kind and even being kind in disagreement is, is extremely important.

And so that's, that's where we're at in these processes like that. And so it's, it's not that we don't have conviction on close-handed issues. There are non-negotiables that we will not even discuss.

We will not even open to debate whether, especially like on the authority of scripture, the sufficiency of the gospel, singular singleness in the way to salvation through Christ alone. If you want to debate that, that's like, no, we won't even entertain a discussion about that.

But then there's so many things on those secondary shelves that are below those non-negotiables that, you know, kindly we should be able to work through it together. So, so I think ordination is one of those second shelf things, you know, I mean, I would say it's highly important, but I've never divided fellowship over someone except when it comes to the ordination of women pastors.

But that, but other than that, you know, there's, you know, that's one of those things that I think people can work through.

Right. Here's the second part of the question. Some people will say this is biblical and they'll either mean it's descriptive or prescriptive. And sometimes they'll even have it backwards. They'll say this is biblical and think it's prescriptive when it's really descriptive.

And so when it comes to ordination and some, is it biblical, descriptive biblical or prescriptive biblical or both?

So, so this is the one question and I'm glad you sent me a little bit of a heads up that, that I actually spent a lot of time, like trying to research a little bit on, because it's, it's a very interesting study on this.

And so I won't take a tremendous amount of time, but I do think it's number one, both. Okay. I do think it is, but the reason that I say it's both, we have a ton of descriptive events that would, that would be ordination.

And when I say ordination, I go back to my original definition of consecration or setting apart for a specific job or role. So that's, so, so we see that described all throughout the New Testament. We see that the apostles are together praying the Holy Spirit.

However, the Holy Spirit did for them, then speaks to them and said, set apart for me, Paul and Barnabas. Okay. And, and no, I'm sorry, Paul and Silas. And so, and so after they had prayed more about that, then they lay hands on them and they send them out, you know?

And so, so that is a descriptive moment of, of someone that the Holy Spirit leading and speaking over someone's life, the apostles lay hands on them and they sent them out. So that's a descriptive thing.

That's not the normal process by which someone becomes quote unquote ordained. There's not a group of guys sitting in a room, just praying and waiting for the Holy Spirit to speak. And then all of a sudden, okay, you're the guy and they lay hands on them and they send him to Africa.

That's, that's not the norm. So we can't say that's prescriptive, but what I would say is descriptive, I'm sorry, we can't say that's prescriptive, but what I would say is prescriptive. And when we mean prescriptive is it's like a prescribed process in scripture.

What we don't have, in my opinion, is specifically the word ordination. So it's hard to say that's prescriptive. We don't have a ceremonial process that's laid out in scripture. So we can't say that's prescriptive.

But what I would say is from the old Testament, all the way through the new Testament, from Jewish custom, it was absolutely prescriptive. And we have to remember that in my opinion, in the new Testament, they are coming from Jewish culture.

So just like we don't have in the text, in the new Testament, a descriptive or prescriptive way to specifically fast. Okay. Then Jesus tells his apostles, but when you fast, do it this way. So there's this assumption in Jesus' teaching that when you're fasting, then don't have gloomy faces, wash your face, comb your hair.

This is something that should be in secret. So there is a prescriptive way to do something that is assumed that's going to be happening. Does that make sense? And so I believe ordination with Jewish culture, it is very prescriptive in the old Testament.

For example, we've got Exodus chapter 28. You shall put them on Aaron, your brother, and on his sons, and him, and you shall anoint them and ordain them, or the word consecrate or ordain is interchangeable.

But in the English language, in this version of the Bible, it literally uses the word ordain them and consecrate them that they may serve me as priest, designated by God, a high priest after the order of Mekellevich.

And so you have this understanding of a process and actually in Exodus 28 and also in Leviticus and other places of the law, there is like a very prescriptive way, just not describing the process, but actually down to the ephod and the things they wear and the anointing of the oil, the laying on of hands, the setting apart for this specific task of being the high priest of the temple.

And also all the priests of the temple after the order of Mekellevich and following that of the Levitical, the Levites, and all of those, there is this very specific understanding of how someone becomes a priest in the temple and then how someone becomes a high priest in the temple.

So in Jewish culture, not only is it described of how it's done, but it is prescribed by God in the law that these men are to be ordained and set apart for this process and for this specific role of high priest.

And then you fast forward a few thousand years, and this is continued on. And of course, then we have the apostle Paul who was after the Pharisees, after the priests and under that order. And so in the New Testament church, I don't think we have a prescriptive described process, but from Judeo influence, I think it is a normal understanding of what a person that is consecrated, ordained, or set apart for the purpose of Titus go to Crete and appoint elders.

There is this appointment of leaders in every house. Timothy is probably our most specific example of when Paul is reminding Timothy, hey, Timothy, don't neglect the gift that you have in Timothy four, which was given to you by prophecy when the council of elders laid hands on you.

So you have this council and you have this laying on of hands, this consecration of Timothy for this specific role. Don't forget this, Timothy, that you went through this process. So the reason that I say it's biblical and it's both, I think we have a very prescriptive Old Testament culture from Jewish background that bleeds over.

And so ordination becomes an assumption of that it's going to continue even in New Testament culture. And then what we do is we get glimpses of it in New Testament culture and how we get a glimpse into it is anytime there is the laying on of hands.

Hebrews chapter six is one of the scriptures that's debated a lot, especially verses one through four with conditional and unconditional security of the believer and those kinds of things. Regardless of where you're at in that, I believe in unconditional security, praise the Lord.

But there's something important that he says there in Hebrews chapter six. He says, therefore, let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, of instruction about worship.

So the first thing you have is about the gospel and life inside the church. Then he has this phrase in there, the laying on of hands. So this like in the middle of that, this distinctive of laying on of hands is considered an elementary principle in the local church.

Then he goes on and talks about eschatology, the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. So we've got the foundation of the gospel, then we've got a laying on of hands, and then we've got end times discussion of eschatology.

So the neat thing is this laying on of hands. So the laying on of hands becomes descriptive in the New Testament, but that originates with a prescriptive pattern and law from the Old Testament. And so that's why we get scriptures like over in, let's see here, first Timothy chapter five, verse 22.

Paul says, don't be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others. Keep yourselves pure. So don't be hasty to lay hands on anybody. Don't be hasty to ordain or consecrate anybody without there being clear evaluation, like it should be slow.

Even in the description of what an elder is, don't lay hands on a novice. Don't lay hands on a new believer, lest they become puffed up. So again, the reason I say both is because again, going back to what I said, there is an Old Testament, very prescriptive manner for the high priest.

Then that culture, in my opinion, bleeds over into New Testament culture as an assumption that the laying on of hands of elders over the young men, consecrating them for the work of the gospel, it's just something that continues.

So even though we don't have a prescriptive method in the New Testament, culturally we do. Then we have the descriptive evidence in the New Testament of how that culture just continued through. So that's the reason I'd say, yes, I believe it's very biblical.

I believe that we have both prescriptive and descriptive in Scripture. So that's where I've arrived at so far. I could be proven wrong, and I'm happy for that if I am. But that was a good study for me.

That was something good for me to work through, and I hadn't really worked through that in a long time. So I'm glad you guys are doing this because it's important that we know why we do what we do. Amen.

What y 'all's opinion? Do you think I'm off base there, or what do y 'all.

Think? Again, that's... No, in episode one, we kind of came to the same conclusion that it's, we actually believe in the, at least I do, I'm not going to speak for Ralph, but in the New Testament it's both prescriptive and descriptive, maybe a little less systematic.

It's not laid out like a, like a, this is how you do it type of thing. But you see where there's a command by the apostle to go and appoint elders. So there has to be a calling out of an elder. You have a description of the qualifications of an elder and the laying on of hands.

So piece all that together and look through the, read between the lines with the descriptive accounts and it all comes together to show that it's something that needs to be.

Done by the church. Yeah. And the laying on of hands is another good study that we kind of touched on a little bit on the introduction. What, maybe what our conclusions were on that. So that's a, that's another good study.

We're trying to figure out what they meant. What does laying on of hands mean when we do that? Because you got, you got people from different backgrounds. Some people come into church to say, there's the guy that stands up and speaks how in the world did he get up there and get that position?

And then you've got the, the old timers or the, the, the retired pastor who is familiar with the whole process and knows everything. And so, you know, we're, we're trying to cover all our bases. So what does laying on of hands mean?

And we kind of touched on that. And then we also talked about the, the idea of we, we have sacraments and, and what's the word that we use? Ordinances. And so why is it, why is it not on that list of ordinances or why is it not a sacrament?

You know, kind of those questions are good questions to tackle. Dan, you want to go with the next set.

Of questions? Yeah. We already asked you are you ordained and what did it look like? Well, you kind of filled in for us. So let's go on to the next one. Biblically speaking, does a man need to be ordained in order to pastor a church?

Or in other words, can someone who's unordained pastor a church biblically speaking? Or I guess can, can maybe one question should might be another.

Right. There you go. So I think this goes back to normative versus exceptions. I do think there are places in the world where the gospel is breaking through in missionology. And I do a lot of third world missions where how do you become an elder in a church where there's never been a church?

And typically it's the first guy that's saved, you know, typically it's like there's not some ordination process. Typically that guy becomes a pastor, the pastor and overseer of that local church and, or, or someone soon after.

And and, and so I think that that's not the normative in established church. But I think that does happen. So I would not make a hard and fast rule to say that there has to be an ordination of man. I would definitely say there has to be an ordination of God.

And that's, that's, that's, that's a crucial distinctive. When we look at old Testament prophets, we you don't, you don't have an ordination process other than, you know, like God told Jeremiah, you know, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.

And before you were born, I consecrated you. So in other words, God set that ordination upon him, set him apart for this role. Uh, I, I appointed you a prophet to the nations. So, so I do think in the, in, in the world that still happens, I think God does that.

And there will not be an affirmation process of man where God sends and does things, but now in places that are gospel saturated, there's church formation. There is structure and, and, and leadership and eldership and oversight.

And those things have happened. I, I do believe a man should be ordained. A man has to be ordained by God still in the same manner. I believe that with all my heart, there has to be the call of God on a man's life that he set apart.

And then that needs to be affirmed by other elders and by those in process. We see that in the New Testament as a normative practice. And so, um, I think that's very, very important. So, so could it happen where a man's not been through an ordination process and he be a pastor, be an elder, be a leader?

Yes, I think it can happen, but I don't think that should be the normative. I think it should be a young man aspires to the office of elder or feels a call to pastor, feels a call to preach or however, whatever terminology a young man may have at that time.

And then, then he expresses that to his other elders and other leaders around him that God is dealing with me about this. I feel like God set me apart or calling me out to this. And then it's the obligation and responsibility biblically of the elders to equip that saint for the work of their ministry.

And part of that equipping, in my opinion, is a process in ordination. And we, we have this happening right now at Vertical Life. I have a young man that he called me this past week and, and he's been dealing with this for, for, for several months now, um, with, with a call to ministry on his life.

And he's, uh, newly married and he's a young man in his early twenties. And, and, you know, and he's, he's working through this very cautiously, very carefully. And he called me the other night and said, said, pastor, I just, I just can't escape this.

I just can't get this off my mind and I need help. I need help with this. And so, so part of our elder meeting this past Sunday afternoon was a discussion about this young man and the process that we want to walk with him through to help evaluate his call, to help evaluate what, what, what he's dealing with in his life and his heart.

Um, that would be the first step is a, is a conversation with him. And then second step, he's going to preach in front of the elders and other men in the church. We're going to set up our opportunity for him to preach.

We'll evaluate his preaching and giving feedback on that. And he'll do that several times. And, and then eventually is if, if, if it sticks for lack of better terms, it's, it's, if anybody says, Hey, I got a feeling I'm like, well, let's just make sure it's not gas.

Um, you know, so, so, um, but if it sticks and it is, and it is still this urgency and this desire, then, then down the road, we'll put him in front of the church and he'll preach and, and there'll be a, there is a process for that.

Um, so I hope that makes sense. I don't mean to get too long winded on that, but, um, but I do, I do believe, first of all, um, it's possible, but should not be in church formation, um, without, without an ordination setting apart, laying on of hands and, and, uh, an affirmation of the local body and elders.

So without going off in the weeds too much, cause this is kind of related, kind of not, um, do you think that that should form or formulate or inform the way that we do missions, especially foreign missions, where we're going and preaching the gospel in foreign lands, that maybe we should, uh, think about discipleship as well as evangelism in the process.