TiL- Southern Baptist Pastoral Ordination

Welcome to the Truth in Love podcast. We are thankful that you're with us tonight. We're gonna have a good episode in our series of pastoral ordination.

Tonight we are going to learn about ordination in the Southern Baptist Convention. Stick with us.

Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Love podcast. Southern Baptist Convention ordination.

Wow, this is gonna be interesting. Our whole series, I think, is gonna be interesting and I hope we can learn from one another.

And as we stated in the intro podcast of the series, we hope that pastors and leaders can join in the conversation, join in these podcasts, and glean and learn from one another.

I think there's so much to be learned from one another in our different denominations because nobody has a complete 100 % handle on God's Word.

We're definitely learning from one another, iron sharpening iron, and I look forward to it. We have a special guest tonight,

Pastor Jonathan Foster from Vertical Life Church. How are you doing, brother? Doing good, guys. Thank you for having me on. Absolutely.

Dan, how are you doing, my friend? I'm doing pretty good. Trying to stay warm. It's cold outside.

Good, good, good. Jonathan and I, we're in the wonderful state of North Carolina where we have not got any snow yet, but Dan up in New York, he has got a little bit, right?

A little bit. We've had probably a total of three inches all year.

Nice, nice. Good deal. That'll be our cumulative for the whole winter. It was a nice freezing 60, 62 degrees today.

We were suffering through it. I had a high like 34. Like always, the comment line is open.

We'd love to hear from you. Let us know if we can pray for you. If you have any questions, comments, or critiques, we're open to that as well.

Let us know you're watching. Say hello. Let's jump into pastoral ordination in the

Southern Baptist Convention. Jonathan, question number one.

Dan, you start with that one because question number two is the one that I threw in there.

Dan, start us off with question number one. All right, question number one. I think we're going to start off with this question with just about everybody.

In your own words, what is pastoral ordination? First of all, let me say,

I don't know that I can speak for all Southern Baptist Convention churches, but I've been raised

Southern Baptist all my life. The church I currently pastor is affiliated with Southern Baptist, but we would look non -denominational if you were to show up.

It's kind of what we would look like stylistically, but doctrinally and missionally, those kind of things we do align with Baptist things in a lot of ways.

We would just say we're Baptist plus. It's probably what we would define ourselves as in a lot of ways.

Pastoral ordination, and it kind of gets into question number two. Pastoral ordination is a consecration, in my opinion, of a person that is set apart for the ministry of the gospel.

In Southern Baptist life, there is not necessarily an ordination to multiple positions.

It's not like an ordination of children's pastor or those kinds of things of that nature, something specific.

It is an ordination to the ministry of the gospel or an ordination of minister of the gospel is what that would be defined as.

It is a very general, very broad ordination, but ideally, in my opinion, it is, in my own words, a setting apart of a person who has said,

I have a call to ministry. Then that person has been evaluated and then placed in a position.

The other thing that I would say ordination to make sure that it's very clear. I think we get into that in later questions too, but I think it's important to put around on the front end for Southern Baptist.

The key word in Southern Baptist life, which

I don't necessarily 100 % agree with, but it is a reality. The key term is autonomy of the local church.

Ordination for Southern Baptist isn't necessarily a denominational ordination.

It is a local church ordination. The local church has the authority to ordain pastors.

When one is ordained, even though they may be a facilitation by a local association, a local group of pastors that help question and interview and come alongside of a local church, it's not necessarily a denominational ordination, but it is facilitated and applied through the local church and the autonomy of the local church.

So, I don't know that specifically. That's why we're talking about pastoral ordination in the

Southern Baptist Convention. I don't know that the Southern Baptist Convention itself, as far as a state convention or a national convention, actually has a

Southern Baptist ordination as it would be in other denominations. Presbyterians, you are ordained through the denomination or Pentecostals, Church of God, those things.

That is a denominational ordination, licensure and ordination, whereas Southern Baptist, because of the autonomy of the local church, it is facilitated through the local church.

I think that's a couple of important distinctives right out the gate, but in short,

I feel like across the board, pastoral ordination, in my opinion, can be defined as a person who has a call to the ministry of the gospel that is visible by other leaders, and then it's a person that is set aside or set apart with that specific authority and role of pastor or minister of the gospel.

I didn't think about adding this question until just now when I was listening to you talk about it, but I think you'll be familiar with it, so I'm going to throw it in there, and it may be different in different denominations.

I know of it because I'm coming from a similar background, and I don't know how prevalent it still is now, but I know it was prevalent when

I was going through the process. So the term license to gospel ministry, that seemed to precede ordination.

Do you have an idea of what the difference is and why there's the license of gospel ministry and then ordination?

Can you explain that? So licensure, license to preach is what they would call it.

That is typically, it does precede ordination. In the Southern Baptist, it is viewed, a license to preach is an affirmation on a person's life, again, through their local church or through a local association, it could be, or those kind of things, that there's an evidence on a person's life that it is clear that they've been called to preach, that they have a call to do that.

And so a license to preach could be that it's a certificate of affirmation that this person is gifted with exhortation or the gift of teaching or those kinds of gifts.

It's like a statement of affirmation. Ordination typically happens when a person takes an actual position.

And so licensure is preceding it. That's a young man that would feel a call to ministry, feel a call to preach, but perhaps has not been called to a local church, but yet still has that calling on his life.

So then his local church says, well, we want to affirm you in your call, even though we're not hiring you or calling you as a pastor, we want to affirm you in your call.

So through this local church, we're going to give you a license to preach or affirm you in your gift of preaching.

And it literally is a certificate that's filled out in form. And you're under the watch care of your local church until there is a placement into a permanent position.

In that permanent position, then the two churches traditionally would come together for an ordination service of that young pastor or of that new pastor, if he's not been ordained before.

And so this is my story, by the way. So I surrendered to a ministry in November of 1998.

Then my home church licensed me. I went through a process in the local church there to be evaluated by the deacons.

You usually have trial sermons, you get up and preach, you have Q &A, they question you, they check your testimony, those kinds of things.

And then there's an evidence in your life that, hey, yes, it's obvious this guy has a call to preach. So then my home church licensed me, but it wasn't until years later that when

I came on staff over here in Maiden at Mountain View Baptist Church in Maiden, even as a youth pastor, then at Mountain View, coming on staff there, they said, have you ever been ordained?

And I said, no, I've been licensed. And so then I was there for about a year. And that's a process in itself to see their testing, to see about your longevity in ministry.

Is this something that, are you going to preach every now and then, or are you really called to vocational ministry,

I guess is what I'm saying. And so once that affirmation comes through the local church that you are going to be in vocational ministry, then that's typically when that church says, hey, we want to ordain you.

And so ordain you as a vocational minister of the gospel. And so the difference between licensure and ordination, one is an affirmation of a call.

The second one is affirmation into a local position traditionally. Does that make sense?

How long did each of those steps take for you? I mean, the actual examination and all of that.

It all depends on the local church. Well, I mean, in your case. For me, in my case, it was the licensure took about maybe two meetings and two trial sermons.

So it was very light. The ordination in of itself was even lighter.

It was one meeting. And so that's why

I'm glad you asked me toward the end. We'll talk about vertical process of ordination versus what used to happen.

So I'm thankful for this process. Don't get me wrong, because it does put you in contact with older pastors with longevity.

So here locally, where Robert and I live in the Lincolnton area, we have the South Fork Baptist Association.

I'm not sure if it's still active or not currently, but I assume, sorry, I'm getting a phone call.

I assume that it is, but there was an ordination council that is a part of the association.

That ordination council is a group of six to eight pastors of the local association.

And I think there's 52 or 56 or maybe 60 now churches in this local association that we say that we're cooperatively working together over this region.

Of those 50 to 60 churches, there's six to eight pastors every year that go through a rotation process of being on an ordination council.

And so then when a local church says, hey, we have a guy that we want him to be ordained, but we want outside objective eyes to question him on doctrine, theology, all this kind of stuff, then that council is convened and that pastor or that young man goes and sits before them.

And then they ask him every question that they can think of.

And so if you pass that well, then it's like they sign your certificate and then you have an ordination service at the local church and boom, you're ordained.

So that's why I would on this front end of it, let's say that of all the ordination processes that I know of,

Southern Baptist are probably the, it doesn't mean it's not serious when I say light. I do think the process of the local church is important.

If done correctly, I think it can be a long, it should be a longer process. But as far as the actual steps, it can be as simple as one meeting and one ordination service and a person is considered ordained as a minister of the gospel.

And so if a guy's a good talker, he can talk his way in through it.

In my opinion, it can be a very light process. It's not very cumbersome, not very heavy and oftentimes taken very lightly.

And in my opinion, that's not good. So I've expressed that before. And some people goes, yeah, we agree with you.

And then nothing changes. So it's okay. I want to jump into this next question.

And this question kind of comes from me. It comes from kind of different areas. One from things that I've been thinking about, things that I've been seeing and pondering.

And there's kind of two parts to it. So let me read the question and hopefully we can explain it well.

People often ask, is this biblical? It is also said as a statement, this is biblical.

And I found that saying something is biblical can mean two different things. And let me stop right there because there's going to be two parts.

I found an example online and I'm going to share that example online because the first part is kind of a pastoral question for you.

How would you handle this conversation? The clip that I'm going to show you is kind of, well, not kind of, but it is on the extreme end of this problem or what

I'm seeing. So you got two people and they say, based on their interpretation, this is biblical.

And the other guy says, no, this is biblical. So pastorally, if you're not in one of the extreme settings, how would you work through that with somebody who you have a difference of opinion with, or you're walking with two different people and they have differences of opinion.

And one says, this is biblical. And the other one says, no, this is biblical. So let me play the clip and I'll let you answer that question first.

And then we'll ask it a different way that kind of leads into the ordination question. So here is the clip for you.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I gave you the scriptures. He gave you his version.

It's always somebody else's version. Hold on, hold on, hold on. No, no, this is nonsense. You came up with your scriptures and gave your interpretation of them.

I gave mine. I gave you the Bible interpretation. I gave you the Bible. I gave more Bible than you did for a fact right there.

All right. Oh really? That's a fact. Well, I'll tell you what, how about, how about in your rebuttal,

I'll keep my mouth shut and you tell me how wrong I was about your misapplication of the ring stabbing in Job chapter 38.

First of all, hello, is it sunrise or not? Not, not at all. I don't agree.

Turn his mic off. Get out. You're a Bible denier.

You're a Bible denier. You're a Bible denier. That is ridiculous.

Bible denier. Just get out. Okay. There's a lot of things that we could critique about, about that clip and what went on, but the example was you have one guy that's saying,

I gave you Bible. And the other guy saying, I gave you Bible. And they're both thinking they have the right biblical interpretation.

How do you walk with, with that, somebody in that conversation that's less extreme, less extreme than this example?

So the first thing I would say to those two guys is the Bible tells us to avoid foolish arguments.

Paul explicitly tells us that. And that right there is foolishness.

I would tell them both that is, that is silly and that is immature.

And that is a, that is a slap in the face to brothers who should be brothers and speak to one another tenderly and kindly, even in disagreement.

And so I'm, I'm thankful for the network that we have, that, that there's things that we lovingly would go toe to toe on.

But at the end of the day, we're, we're not going to be throwing around slurs at each other or whatever.

So, so what you do though, in those situations, it, it, number one, from a pastoral standpoint, and I have this in, in my congregation, we're, we are,

I, I hate that I missed the conversation on Calvinism the other night. But we would consider ourselves a

Calvinistic reformed theology church, especially in soteriology, especially when it comes to the studies of salvation.

You know, we're very reformed in that. It's God caused, God given by the grace of God, the mercy of God, through the love of God, even faith itself, the gift of God, never by works, lest any man could boast.

I mean, like it's, we are, we are sovereigntist to the, in salvation, especially to the teal, that doesn't discredit man's responsibility at all.

Scripture very plainly gives man responsibility to respond, but even the gift and the ability to respond comes from God.

And so, so when it comes to those kinds of things, though, in our church, there would be people that are in journey with what

I just said in my church. I mean, that's said under my preaching every Sunday that are actively involved, they're leaders in our church.

When it comes to eschatology, you know, we, we love to spar with each other when it comes to end times discussions and those kinds of things.

And so pastorally, number one, when it comes to scripture,

I try to help people have an understanding of where someone is at. There, there are maturity levels, there are understandings, there's study, there's educational processes.

So number one, just be kind and patient with each other. Just because someone doesn't agree or believe with where you're at, doesn't mean that's not where they'll end up, you know, or vice versa.

I could be wrong. I could be, and I want to be humble enough to say, this is my best of understanding from my study, from my research, from my exegesis, not eisegesis of scripture, but from my exegesis of scripture, this is where I'm at, but I appreciate where you're at and let's, let's dig, you know, that kind of stuff.

And I think that's what we attempt to do. So with debates like that, there's a lot of eisegesis going on.

There's a lot of experiential, Hey, this is what I've experienced. So therefore this must be doctrine versus this, what you've experienced.

And therefore this must be doctrine. And, you know, it just becomes very ugly and silly.

So, so pastorally we strive for unity. I think that's, that's the whole key. And so being kind and even being kind in disagreement is, is extremely important.

And so that's, that's where we're at in these processes like that. And so it's, it's not that we don't have conviction on close -handed issues.

There are non -negotiables that we will not even discuss. We will not even open to debate whether, especially like on the authority of scripture, the sufficiency of the gospel, singleness in the way to salvation through Christ alone.

Like, like we, if you want to debate that, that's like, no, we won't even entertain a discussion about that.

But then there's so many things on those secondary shelves that are below those non -negotiables that, you know, kindly we should be able to work through it together.

So, so I think ordination is one of those second shelf things, you know, I mean, it's, it's, I would say it's highly important.

But I've never divided fellowship over someone except when it comes to the ordination of women pastors.

But that, but other than that, you know, there's, you know, that's one of those things that I think people can work through.

Here's the second part of the question. Some people say this is biblical and they'll either mean it's descriptive or prescriptive.

And sometimes they'll even have it backwards. They'll say this is biblical and think it's prescriptive when it's really descriptive.

And so when it comes to ordination and some, is it biblical, descriptive biblical or prescriptive biblical or both?

So, so this is the one question and I'm glad you sent me a little bit of a heads up that, that I actually spent a lot of time, like trying to research a little bit on, because it's, it's a very interesting study on this.

And so I won't take a tremendous amount of time, but I do think it's number one, both.

Okay. I do think it is. But the reason that I say it's both, we have a ton of descriptive events that would, that would be ordination.

And when I say ordination, I go back to my original definition of consecration or setting apart.

For example, for a specific job or role. So that's, so, so we see that described all throughout the

New Testament. We see that the apostles are together, praying the Holy spirit.

However, the Holy spirit did for them then speaks to them and said, set apart for me,

Paul and Barnabas. Okay. And, and no,

I'm sorry, Paul and Silas. And so, and so after they had prayed more about that, then they lay hands on them and they send them out, you know?

And so, so that is a descriptive moment of, of someone that the

Holy spirit leading and speaking over someone's life, the apostles lay hands on them and they sent them out.

So that's a descriptive thing. That's not the normal process by which someone becomes quote unquote ordained.

There's not a group of guys sitting in a room, just praying and waiting for the Holy spirit to speak. And then all of a sudden, okay, you're the guy and they lay hands on them and they send him to Africa.

That's, that's not the norm. So we can't say that's prescriptive, but what

I would say is descriptive, I'm sorry, we can't say that's prescriptive, but what I would say is prescriptive.

And when we mean prescriptive is it's like a prescribed process in scripture.

What we don't have in my opinion is specifically the word ordination. So it's hard to say that's prescriptive.

We don't have a ceremonial process that's laid out in scripture. So we can't say that's prescriptive.

But what I would say is from the old Testament, all the way through the new Testament, from Jewish custom, it was absolutely prescriptive.

And we have to remember that in my opinion, in the new Testament, they are coming from Jewish culture.

So just like we don't have in the text, in the new Testament, a descriptive or prescriptive way to specifically fast.

Okay. Then Jesus tells his apostles, but when you fast, do it this way.

So there's this assumption in Jesus's teaching that when you're fasting, then don't have gloomy faces, wash your face, comb your hair.

This is something that should be in secret. So there is a prescriptive way to do something that is assumed that's going to be happening.

Does that make sense? And so I believe ordination with Jewish culture, it is very prescriptive in the old

Testament. For example, we've got Exodus chapter 28. You shall put them on Aaron, your brother, and on his sons, and him, and you shall anoint them and ordain them, or the word consecrate or ordain is interchangeable.

But in the English language, in this version of the Bible, it literally uses the word ordain them and consecrate them that they may serve me as priest, designated by God, a high priest after the order of Mechizildek.

And so you have this understanding of a process and actually in Exodus 28 and also in Leviticus and other places of the law, there is like a very prescriptive way, just not describing the process, but actually down to the ephod and the things they wear and the anointing of the oil, the laying on of hands, the setting apart for this specific task of being the high priest of the temple.

And also all the priests of the temple after the order of Mechizildek and following that of the

Levitical, the Levites and all of those, there is this very specific understanding of how someone becomes a priest in the temple and then how someone becomes a high priest in the temple.

So in Jewish culture, not only is it described of how it's done, but it is prescribed by God in the law that these men are to be ordained and set apart for this process and for this specific role of high priest.

And then you fast forward, you know, a few thousand years and this has continued on.

And of course, then we have the Apostle Paul who was after the Pharisees, after the priests and under that order.

And so in the New Testament church, I don't think we have a prescriptive described process.

But from Judeo influence, I think it is a normal understanding of what a person that is consecrated, ordained or set apart for the purpose of Titus go to Crete and appoint elders.

There is this appointment of leaders in every house. Timothy is probably our most specific example of when

Paul is reminding Timothy, hey, Timothy, don't neglect the gift that you have in Timothy four, which was given to you by prophecy when the council of elders laid hands on you.

So you have this council and you have this laying on of hands, this consecration of Timothy for this specific role.

Don't forget this, Timothy, that you went through this process. So the reason that I say it's biblical and it's both,

I think we have a very prescriptive Old Testament culture from Jewish background that bleeds over.

And so ordination becomes an assumption of that it's going to continue even in New Testament culture.

And then what we do is we get glimpses of it in New Testament culture. And how we get a glimpse into it is anytime there is the laying on of hands.

Hebrews chapter six is one of the scriptures that's debated a lot, especially verses one through four with conditional and unconditional security of the believer in those kind of things.

Regardless of where you're at in that, I believe in unconditional security, praise the

Lord. But there's something important that he says there in Hebrews chapter six. He says, therefore, let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, of instruction about worship.

So the first thing you have is about the gospel and life inside the church. Then he has this phrase in there, the laying on of hands.

So this like in the middle of that, this distinctive of laying on of hands is considered an elementary principle in the local church.

Then he goes on and talks about eschatology, the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

So we've got the foundation of the gospel, then we've got a laying on of hands, and then we've got end times discussion of eschatology.

So the neat thing is this laying on of hands. So the laying on of hands becomes descriptive in the

New Testament, but that originates with a prescriptive pattern and law from the

Old Testament. And so that's why we get scriptures like over in, let's see here, 1

Timothy chapter five, verse 22. Paul says, don't be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others.

Keep yourselves pure. So don't be hasty to lay hands on anybody. Don't be hasty to ordain or consecrate anybody without there being clear evaluation, like it should be slow.

Even in the description of what an elder is. Don't lay hands on a novice.

Don't lay hands on a new believer lest they become puffed up. So again, the reason

I say both is because again, going back to what I said, there is an Old Testament, very prescriptive manner for the high priest.

Then that culture, in my opinion, bleeds over into New Testament culture as an assumption that the laying on of hands of elders over the young men, consecrating them for the work of the gospel is just something that continues.

So even though we don't have a prescriptive method in the New Testament, culturally we do.

And then we have the descriptive evidence in the New Testament of how that culture just continued through. And so that's the reason

I'd say, yes, I believe it's very biblical. And I believe that we have both prescriptive and descriptive in scripture.

So that's where I've arrived at so far. Now I could be proven wrong and I'm happy for that if I am, but that was a good study for me.

That was something good for me to work through. And I hadn't really worked through that in a long time. So I'm glad you guys are doing this because it's important that we know why we do what we do.

Amen. You think

I'm off base there or what do y 'all think? No, in episode one, we kind of came to the same conclusion that we actually believe in the, at least

I do, I'm not going to speak for Ralph, but in the New Testament, it's both prescriptive and descriptive, maybe a little less systematic.

It's not laid out like a, like a, this is how you do it type of thing. But you see where there's a command by the apostle to go and appoint elders.

So there has to be a calling out of an elder. You have a description of the qualifications of an elder and the laying on of hands.

So piece all that together and look through the, read between the lines with the descriptive accounts and it all comes together to show that it's something that needs to be done by the church.

Yeah. And the laying on of hands is another good study that we kind of touched on a little bit on the introduction.

What, maybe what our conclusions were on that. So that's a, that's another good study.

We're trying to figure out what, what they meant. What does laying on of hands mean when we do that? Because you got, you got people from different backgrounds.

Some people come into church to say, there's the guy that stands up and speaks.

How in the world did he get up there and get that position? And then you've got the, the, the old timers or the, the, the retired pastor who is familiar with the whole process and knows everything.

And so, you know, we're, we're trying to cover all our bases. So what does laying on of hands mean? And we kind of touched on that.

And then we also talked about the, the idea of we, we have sacraments and, and what's the word that we use?

Ordinances. Ordinances. And so why is it, why is it not on that list of ordinances or why is it not a sacrament?

You know, kind of those questions are good questions to tackle. Dan, you want to go with the next set of questions?

Yeah. We already asked you are you ordained and what did it look like?

You kind of filled in for us. So let's go on to the next one. Biblically speaking, does a man need to be ordained in order to pastor a church?

Or in other words, can someone who's unordained pastor a church biblically speaking?

Or I guess can, can maybe one question should might be another. Right. There you go.

So I think this goes back to normative versus exceptions.

I do think there are places in the world where the gospel is breaking through in missionology.

And I do a lot of third world missions where, how do you become an elder in a church where there's never been a church?

And typically it's the first guy that's saved. You know, typically it's like, there's not some ordination process.

Typically that guy becomes the pastor, an overseer of that local church or someone soon after.

And so I think that's not the normative in established church.

But I think that does happen. So I would not make a hard and fast rule to say that there has to be an ordination of man.

I would definitely say there has to be an ordination of God. And that's, that's, that's, that's a crucial distinctive.

When we look at old Testament prophets, we you don't, you don't have an ordination process other than, you know, like God told

Jeremiah, you know before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And before you were born,

I consecrated you. So in other words, God set that ordination upon him, set him apart for this role.

I appointed you a prophet to the nations. So, so I do think in the, in the world that still happens.

I think God does that and there will not be an affirmation process of man where God sends and does things.

But now in places that are gospel saturated, there's church formation, there is structure and, and, and leadership and eldership and oversight.

And those things have happened. I, I do believe a man should be ordained.

A man has to be ordained by God still in the same manner. I believe that with all my heart, there has to be the call of God on a man's life that he set apart.

And then that needs to be affirmed by other elders and by those in process.

We see that in the New Testament as a normative practice. And so I think that's very, very important.

So, so could it happen where a man's not been through an ordination process and he be a pastor, be an elder, be a leader?

Yes, I think it can happen, but I don't think that should be the normative. I think it should be a young man aspires to the office of elder or feels a call to pastor, feels a call to preach or however, whatever terminology a young man may have at that time.

And then, then he expresses that to his other elders and other leaders around him that God is dealing with me about this.

I feel like God set me apart or calling me out to this. And then it's the obligation and responsibility biblically of the elders to equip that saint for the work of their ministry.

And part of that equipping, in my opinion, is a process in ordination. And we, we have this happening right now at Vertical Life.

I have a young man that he called me this past week and, and he's been dealing with this for, for, for several months now with, with a call to ministry on his life.

And he's newly married and he's a young man in his early twenties. And, and and he's, he's working through this very cautiously, very carefully.

And he called me the other night and said, said, pastor, I just, I just can't escape this. I just can't get this off my mind and I need help.

I need help with this. And so, so part of our elder meeting this past Sunday afternoon was a discussion about this young man and the process that we want to walk with him through to help evaluate his call, to help evaluate what, what, what he's dealing with in his life and his heart.

That would be the first step is a, is a conversation with him. And then second step, he's going to preach in front of the elders and other men in the church.

We're going to set up our opportunity for him to preach. We'll evaluate his preaching and give him feedback on that. And he'll do that several times.

And, and then eventually is if, if, if it sticks for lack of better terms, it's, it's, if anybody says,

Hey, I got a feeling, I'm like, well, let's just make sure it's not gas. But if it sticks and it is, and it is still this urgency and this desire, then, then down the road, we'll put him in front of the church and he'll preach.

And, and there'll be a, there is a process for that. So I hope that makes sense.

I don't mean to get too long winded on that, but, but I do, I do believe, first of all, it's possible, but should not be in church formation without, without an ordination, setting apart, laying on of hands and, and, and an affirmation of the local body and elders.

So without going off in the weeds too much, cause this is kind of related, kind of not.

Do you think that that should form or formulate or inform the way that we do missions, especially foreign missions, where we're going and preaching the gospel in foreign lands, that maybe we should think about discipleship as well as evangelism in the process.

So that way we don't leave a pastor or a new believer there with that burden on them to have another people look at them, maybe they're not ready.

A hundred percent. We, again, I can't speak for all Southern Baptists, but I can only speak of where our convictions are locally and our third world missions and the things that we do.

We, we plant churches in third world mission countries. We, we have, we have a very active, vibrant ministry in Honduras that we've been a partner with for a long time and, and worked with other ministries and churches together.

And, and, and so when, when we planted that church there, it was directly under our watch care with an indigenous pastor there.

And I just talked to him today on the phone, you know, so we're in direct conversation, but part of his preparation, once we announced that we want to plant a church, we began that with Bible study, but we sent that pastor to another local mission organization that had, it was basically like a seminary intensive.

It gave him biblical counseling background. It gave him hermeneutics training. It gave him like, like tools.

And they call it the Timothy initiative. It's like an intensive preparations time.

And so he had to leave home, go to San Pedro Sula, and it's about a six month process. And so then when he came back, still under our watch care, under the watch care of other local churches and other pastors, then we had an ordination service for him to, to launch the church and affirm him.

And it's called a ministry. And so, so there should be a discipleship process.

There should be those kinds of things. And, and I think in most cases, that would be the case with like IMB and Southern Baptist.

I think that would, because most of our missionaries, there are long term missionaries. But I do know in the world, there is like these church planting movements that move really fast.

And typically the discipleship process then is, is almost like a second thought rather than a primary thought.

And, and I think that's dangerous. I think, I think you can't always go in with a structured plan, but I think you should at least have an idea.

And of course the Lord can change anything that he wants to as he, as he wills. But I know for us in missional work and church planting, we always go in at least with some kind of idea of systematic discipleship on the front end of the process.

That way, if the Lord does a salvation movement as we're praying for, we are ready for those people to come and not only believe, but be equipped for the work of ministry.

I think that is the mission of the local church is to make disciples, not just make confessors or believers, but make disciples.

And disciples are those that are devoted followers of Jesus who are loving from the gospel, learning from the gospel and living out the gospel in community.

And that's how we define a disciple. And so to create that, that's not something that they're going to say, Oh, Oh, I believe in Jesus.

And then just go back home and continue life as norm. You know, it's, it's a gathering of the saints, equipping of the body.

And so, so it's a process. And so it's, so even in this church plant that I'm talking about, it's been practically a 10 year process for church formation.

And so it's been a 10 year process. And I would say they have 25 to 30 authentic, active believers.

And they've got other attenders, but, you know, a lot of people would call that a fail, but that's not a fail at all because those grounded in the word.

And so now they are ready for what might be called a gospel movement or, or, or a, a evangelism movement where there is a next wave of believers that come.

And as they come, they're ready to be equipped. And there's a foundation laid that is able to be built upon for years and generations to come

Lord willing. So, so, so we're not talking about a flash in the pan mission. You know, this is, this is a long -term plan and a long -term conviction that people have to persevere through.

And that starts with the first guy, you know what I mean? That starts with, so we had no converts in the village where we've been working.

And there was this one young man who, who said he was already, already a

Christian, but he followed us around everywhere he went when we were there, like he was in our back pocket and he was like 14 years old when we started going.

And so now, now, 10 years later, you know, he's 24 years old. And so he is a

Timothy to us in a lot of ways. And, uh, he's a lead pastor of this little church, you know? So, so it's, it's exciting to see that.

Yeah. Praise the Lord. I'm going to interject this question based on what you were saying earlier. Um, and, and I think it's,

I think it's going to be the same answer from my opinion, um, to the question, why does

God put other processes in place for the local church? And so you use the word normative.

Uh, you see, you see the ordination of a pastor normative in scripture. You see it, uh, it should be the normative practice.

I think you stated in the local church. So the question is, and like I said, it's probably the same answer for the reason

God has put other processes in place for their local church. But why do you think God has, uh, or, or God leads us to have pastoral ordination to be normative in the local church?

Why is that? Well, it tells us that this gets into eschatology,

Rob. Okay. I'm just kidding. Whenever these last days are, I'm just kidding.

I, whether, whether your last begin 70 AD or last days are now or last days or whatever, you know,

Jesus gives very clear warning right out the gate that there are going to be many that come in my name.

There's going to be many false teachers. Peter, uh, mentions that in scripture, John is debating the, the

Gnostics. Um, we see Ignatius in the history there of the church immediately began to deal with that.

And so, uh, beware of false prophets. Beware false teachers is like echoes throughout the new

Testament right away because there's these, uh, there's these, uh, guys that pop up and say, oh,

I love Jesus too. Or I'm, I'm of Christ. Um, it is absolutely essential, um, because it protects the local church.

Um, and that's, that's what it's about, uh, ordination. Um, and that's, that's why

I prefer a heavier process, a higher level of examination and a longer time period, um, for ordination than what

Southern Baptist have traditionally done. Because we have a lot of men that say, oh yeah,

I was ordained one time. And they're sitting at home selling cars and selling insurance or doing whatever.

And I, and I, and I believe the giftings and callings of God are without repentance. God does not change his mind on who he appoints and gifts to these things.

And so, um, so therefore I think sometimes it's become a popularity contest or it's become a quick fix for something, um, those kinds of things.

And so it protects the local church from heretics and it protects the local church from wolves and sheep's clothing.

And that's, that's, that's a very big priority, but that's no new thing. God even talks about that. And to Jeremiah in the beginning of Jeremiah, you know, that there's these false leaders and false prophets.

And then God says, I'm going to give you real pastors. I'm going to give you real people who will shepherd the flock. And so, um, so I think that, that to me is a primary thing, um, to, to protect the flock.

Well, and as an under shepherd, you are under the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, um, not that the Lord needs us to protect his reputation, but we can, you know, solely his name, we can blaspheme his name and we can, um, misuse his name.

And, uh, and so I think, uh, would you include that as, as part of the, why ordination should be normative that we, we as pastors represent someone else.

Absolutely. And that's the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah. Well, if we're going to tell people, imitate my faith, just as I imitate

Christ, then what faith, what faith are you projecting? That is the faith of Christ.

Well, I mean, what are you projecting to your people? And, and so the only way we can test that is to submit ourselves one to another out of the fear of God, Ephesians 5 .20.

So I have to submit myself to, to other leaders, other pastors, other elders.

I'm, I'm submitting myself to them to evaluate my life that am

I actually walking, walking in a manner worthy of this calling, worthy of this ordination.

Um, and even prior to, uh, I'm, I'm not, I'm never interested in the ordination of a guy who says, um,

I'm looking to be ordained so, so I can, so I can be a pastor.

Um, sorry guys. Um, I'm looking to be ordained so, so I can get a job or I'm looking to be ordained.

The ones that always excite my heart is, is again, like this young man that we're dealing with,

I was telling you that earlier. I mean, this guy's already doing shepherding and counseling and teaching and meeting with small groups and discipling other men and, uh, is on the phone all week long, following up with people and just, you know, he already exudes those attributes in a lot of ways.

Um, and it is, and it is above and beyond the norm of a, of a normal Christian life,

I guess I should say. I mean, we should all do those things. That's the one another in things, but there's, there's just a part of that that you see that is, there's a zeal in him and a fervency in him.

That's, that's greater than, um, than, than, than a lay person that, that is just walking through Christian life and a good servant, a good

Christian, that doesn't mean they're greater Christians, but, uh, you can just tell there's a, uh, an admonition, a calling on his life to, to do these things and, and, and he's following the

So, but on the same time or nation is absolutely necessary, um, because there should be more times that elders say, no, no, you're, you are, you think you're called, but you're not.

And this is why this is the evidence you're, or at least not right now, you know? Uh, no.

And we've had to do that before too. And that is very painful. It is very painful. It's very difficult. Um, it's not, it's not a joyful thing to, to, uh, to tell someone no, especially to the gospel ministry, because you want everybody to, to be zealous about it.

But, um, but I think it's important because it was the nose in my life to transfer, transform me more than the yeses.

A lot of times, you know, it was the, it was the correction that did a lot of things and I'm thankful for those people.

So, so you'd noticed some, uh, or you said that you, you saw some weaknesses in the length of time, amount of examination maybe, uh, in, uh, some

Southern Baptist churches. So, uh, could you highlight those just to just a fuzz more and maybe say how your process at vertical life works and how you're trying to maybe combat some of those things?

Sure. So again, going back to experiences, um, that were in my opinion, light, um, um, it doesn't mean not serious again.

I hope nobody misunderstands and it doesn't mean lack of sincerity. Um, I think there is sincere and as, as genuine as they possibly can be.

Um, they went through the process. So it's, so in some ways, um, it's just not knowing any better.

It's, it's literally just following tradition versus, you know, really digging in. And, um, so those processes again today, it would still be the same in a lot of ways that a young man could come up, say,

Hey, I got a call to preach, praise the Lord. And that local pastor can say, yep, I've known it all along.

Let's call the association. They can call the association or they can do it even among other, other leaders in the church.

They can pull a council together, ask this guy some questions. If he, he checks the boxes of what they feel like is that, then, then let's do it.

Let's set up a, or let's set up an ordination service and we'll lay hands on him and, and you'll be considered licensed to preach and ordained and let's roll.

You know, I mean, that literally could happen as fast as a church schedule would allow.

Um, and so, so that should not be the normative.

Okay. I mean, it should not be, uh, the case. So, so for us at our local church, taking advantage of autonomy as well.

Um, the, when, what I mean by autonomy, if anybody else out there is listening, what that just simply means is the denomination does not dictate to us the polity and processes of our local church.

Now, we are, we are a part of a denomination because we align doctrinally and missionally, um, in that, but, but Southern Baptist again, is not going to dictate whether you have pastor led, elder led, deacon led, congregationalism, like it's, it's not going to dictate to the local church how the polity and structure of the local church is set up.

As long as you check the boxes of doctrinal affirmation, then polity is left up to the local church.

Um, as long as it's not out in this crazy left field. Okay. So, um, so anyway, so for us to, to combat the lightness of it, um, for us, for even deacon ordination, which

I, I believe that the two offices in the church for us, uh, are deacons and elders.

And then for me, as, as they call me the lead pastor, um, that's not a title

I asked for. That's just what the other elders call me. And I think it just helps clarify if anything, they view me as a leader among leaders.

It's kind of how I'm viewed as, as the lead person. But when it comes down to the, the elders of the church, if we sit down around the table and take a vote, which we've never really had to do to make a decision, it's always been by affirmation and conversation.

But if we did get to the point that there was such a disagreement that we had to, as scripture say, cast lots or make a vote, uh, my vote is one, just like all the other elders around that.

Even though I may have an influential voice because I'm, I'm the week to week teacher and preacher, uh, my vote, as far as authority goes is, is one, just like the rest of the guys are one.

And so I appreciate that and accountability. And the reason I'm saying all that is we're not going to lightly let anyone have that kind of authority over our flock.

We're not going to, to just any guy walk off the street and say, well, I'm called to preach.

I deserve, I deserve to be sitting around that table. Okay, well then let's see, you know, let's, let us watch your life for a season.

And so, so what I see in scripture, when it comes to the office of elder and the office of deacon,

I see process, how it came about a little bit different too. I do think deacons can be nominated from the congregation.

We see that there in the early part of Acts with the Hellenistic women, look out among you from among you men of good report, um, full of the

Holy spirit, full of wisdom. And the people chose seven, but notice who had the final say, the elders were the ones that then, or the apostles, which were the acting elders of that time.

Once they presented them to them, then they laid hands on them. There was an ordination process.

They laid hands on them and sent them forward. And so then elders are in return appointed by other elders, but to get appointed by an elder, there had to be some kind of evaluation process.

And we don't have that explicitly described in scripture, but there had to be some kind of evaluation.

And we do have explicit, uh, qualifications, you know, now how they measured that and who did we don't know.

But what we did at vertical life is we combined what we see in scripture of qualifications.

And then we also took the evaluation and affirmation of the congregation because we're not congregational.

We don't vote on elders nor deacons, but we have a high level of evaluation, um, by the congregation with the affirmation of the elders.

And so what our process would look like is, and we're going through this right now. So it's kind of funny that y 'all have asked me to do this.

Uh, we had our first meeting this past Sunday with three men that we are bringing into the office of deacon.

Uh, they are men that's been already serving. It's very clear this is a gift set that they have. So they're not just going to become a deacon and then start serving.

They've, they've already been serving, but even though they've already been serving, it's still going to be probably, um, it's probably still going to be a five to six month process before there's actually an ordination, even of a deacon.

And what that process looks like is we, I was counting it up in my head. So we, we had the initial meeting with them, which is

I instigate, um, with a conversation with them. Hey, we see this gift on your life.

Our elders see this. Other people in our congregation see this. Is this something that you feel like the Lord may be gifting you with or called you to do?

So then their expectation is to take two or three weeks and fast and pray about this. Like, like take it before the

Lord and see if it's something that, that they feel like the Lord would have them do first of all.

So then they come back, say, yep, this is, this is something that you're right. And, and, and it's something

I've been thinking about as well. And the Lord has affirmed it in my heart and mind. So now I'm, I'm, I'm open to this if you guys are open to it.

So then we have, so we have that initial meeting. Then secondary meeting would be the one we had Sunday, but they come before all the elders of the church and we have the next initial conversation.

And it, again, it's an initial conversation. So then that conversation is laying out what our expectations are and parameters of what a deacon actually does.

And if in an elder would be the same process of what an elder actually does and what, what, what that looks like in our local body.

So it's like laying down the job description for lack of better terms, but it's the, just the biblical descriptions is what it is.

And so we literally go verse by verse through scripture. We spend a lot of time like waiting through that through the next couple of few meetings.

So that's phase two, phase three, then would be a doctrinal evaluation for deacons.

We do see a, a separation between apt to teach or have to be able to teach versus have to be of sound wisdom, full of wisdom.

So for deacons, did deacons ever teach? They absolutely did. If you, if you look at what happened with Philip, you know, and Samaria and those guys,

Stephen, you know, those were early deacons and those guys were out preaching the gospel like the Harrison fire.

So, so definitely deacons can preach. Okay. But are they required to preach?

No, they're not. Versus I would say an elder is required to be able to be apt to teach, able to give a defense, a clear defense and, and, and proclaim the gospel in a teaching manner.

All Christians should proclaim the gospel. So that's why I tried to give that descriptor in a teaching manner.

So, so for our, for our deacons, basically we give them the answers and, and they are to evaluate, like we, we, we, we give the statements of faith and we simply ask them to read it carefully, study it diligently.

And then they are to sign off if they agree or disagree. And if they disagree, why?

And we do categorize it out of non -negotiables and then other things that are, that are high conviction in our church, but may have room for discussion.

And then we do third category things, which are, here's our conviction, but this is not going to affect whether you can be a leader or not.

So of course, the non -negotiables is a, you have to believe these.

Second tier stuff for us, you should believe this and it's not likely that you'll be a good fit for leadership here if you don't believe these.

And then third, you know, you don't have to do that. And so, so for deacons, we lay that out, then they sign off.

Yes, we agree. And if no, then they have to give a defense of their no. On the other hand, with elders, elders, we give a topic.

We give the topic of, of here's the topic. We'll just go back to Calvinism.

We lay out tulip, like just give the acronym and say, now you write and give us a defense of what you believe this is, why you believe this is, and what's your personal conviction of it is.

And so they literally have to write it out. The last elder that went through this ended up with about a 20 page thesis. And, and it was very good.

It takes an elder about, about a year is probably the fastest elder that I've ever had go through our evaluation process of the elder body is, was about eight months.

But most of the time it's about a year process because it's, it's pretty intense with the study and the learning of what we expect them to be.

So that's why we don't have many elders very often. You know, we're, we're not just throwing elders up on the elder board.

So we've noticed that that is difficult because some of our elders that are laboring, there's not a rotation system for a young church like ours.

So, so that has become a little bit to our detriment, but we still convictionally will not change.

So, so then our process would be going through those doctrinal signs. Then once that's signed off on by all the elders, then we put them in front of the church and put them in front of the church.

We would say from, from our elder body, we recommend this guy to be a deacon, or we recommend this guy to be an elder.

They have been through this process. We have found them sound in doctrine. We have found them faithful in the study of the word, apt to teach, or with the gift of servanthood.

We found them faithful in that. But with that understanding, we want to present them to you for evaluation.

And that is a full 30 day process. And so that elder or deacon is expected to make themselves completely available to the congregation for conversations, for coffee, for emails, whatever.

And we do ask our congregation to be polite, be understanding, not overbearing in this 30 day process, but honest in any question, ask them.

During that time, if there's anything with merit that comes back that would cause a disqualification, we have to deal with it then.

But that is a 30 day evaluation. But at the end of that 30 days, if there's nothing with merit that the congregation brings back to the elders or brings back to me or brings back to somebody, if there's nothing with that, then we do go ahead and set an ordination date.

And that is an official service that we have in our church. It's a great celebration. We invite families in.

And then it is a laying on of hands. It is a specific charge to the congregation to submit themselves to leaders.

And it's a charge to the leaders to shepherd well the flock. And then it is a laying on of hands and a consecration and a setting apart of that man and his wife.

Now, his wife is not ordained in the office, but she is a part of the process, just like qualifications have the process.

So I didn't say that earlier, but even the wife is evaluated as well in this process, too. So I didn't say that, but I hope that's assumed.

But anyways, and so then after evaluation of the congregation, evaluation of the elders, then there is a set service that is a very special, celebrative, laying on of hands, setting apart for the office of pastor, elder, or the office of deacon.

And so for us, it's not just a group of guys sitting in a room firing questions at somebody.

That's phase one, and I think it's a very important phase. But there's much more to it to protect the flock and to be careful that we don't lay hands on anyone too quickly.

And so, yeah, so that's our process to combat the lightness of what

I see in a lot of Southern Baptist understanding. And then some have accused us of going too far.

You're way too stringent, like this is way too heavy of a process. And I just tell them, say, well, look, it may be, but if they genuinely are called by God, then they'll endure it.

It's a test of perseverance, and it's rigorous, and it's a test of faithfulness.

And so, but typically too, there's one caveat, and I'll be quiet.

The one caveat is if these guys are going through biblical training like seminary or like some of our guys that surrendered or caught a ministry late in life, they're going through Fruitland or those kinds of stuff, the rigor of their thesis papers may be somewhat lighter if they provide evidence of work that they've already done through their classes and things like that, if that makes sense.

But in Southern Baptist, there is nothing to test that except Q &A.

There is no checks and balances. There is no formal writing or formal defense of a faith or any of those kinds of things.

It's typically a group of guys meeting in a room. And so can

I add one more statement to that? And then the issue too, that I have with the ordination with the way our denomination has done it too, is there's actually no accountability from those that are doing the ordaining.

So this group of men that, and I was looking at it the other day, it's in my office. I have my ordination certificate.

I have nine pastors that signed off. I think it's not, it's either seven or nine that signed off on me being ordained as a pastor.

Of those guys that ordained me,

I probably never heard from maybe one of them ever again, ever.

And so these are the guys that are supposed to be holding me accountable, equipping me.

And if I falter, if I fail, they're the ones that should be able to rescind my ordination.

That ought to be able to come back and say, you've fallen, you have fallen into sin.

You've brought reproach on the title minister of the gospel. Therefore, we are stripping you of your ordination until there's a process of repentance and reconciliation.

That's one thing that I highly disagree with in Southern Baptist. There is zero process for that.

Zero. And I think it should be something that is applied because again, we have a lot of guys that have fallen grievously and yet still or ordained, still carry the title of reverend or ordained pastor and still carry out functions of the church.

Marry people and those kinds of stuff, even though they're not functioning as pastor or anything.

So then it becomes just a secular title really is what it becomes when it should be a sacred title. So that's something that's a major falter.

And again, why I say that it's light because it's zero follow -up. So for us, if we ordain someone in our local church, there is a charge of those elders to have direct oversight of that pastor, no matter where he goes for the rest of his life.

As long as they're alive, they should have regular check -ins. And I get it.

It may be some months go by or maybe two or three, four months go by or whatever, but at least biannually three or four times a year, that pastor should be getting a call from somebody from that ordination council, checking in with them, following up.

And then if there ever is an accountability process, those that sign off on him should have the authority to do that.

And we make that a part of our covenant of ordination that these that are doing the ordaining have the authority to recall it, if there's ever a reason to do so, a disqualifying factor.

All right. We're about to wrap up, but we would like for you to take a little bit of time to give some advice to some young men, some old men who have an inkling or a desire to become a pastor and elder.

What advice would you give to them as they consider a call to the ministry?

Spend a lot of time in prayer and spend a lot of time with other pastors. Spend a lot of time with pastors that will encourage you and not discourage you.

I think we have a lot of men that have been in the ministry for a long time. And right now it is a very difficult day and time to pastor, especially in America and especially in the southern parts of America or anywhere as far as that goes.

I feel like it is very difficult. So pray diligently, seek godly counsel, and then get as equipped as you possibly can as you go into the journey.

And so I would say I praise God that he's still in the business of calling young men to serve in the gospel ministry.

So do it with zeal, but don't do it with rose -colored shades on, you know, because it's a grind.

It's a grind, and it is a life of sacrifice. I think I would encourage that young man to have a sound doctrine of suffering.

It is something that a lot of young men don't have. They don't have that.

So Jesus said, they hated me, so they're going to hate you. And all that desire to be godly will be persecuted.

And so if a man is a minister of the gospel and preaches the truth, that is an unavoidable truth that catches a lot of young men off guard.

So those are things that I just wanted to be very sober going into it,

I guess, and a very clear understanding.

So, yep. So that would be my advice. It may not be very encouraging, but I think that would be a good way to start.

Solid stuff. Robert, you want to wrap this up? Yeah, well, I think we and everybody else that was listening definitely heard why

I wanted to have Pastor Jonathan on to talk about this subject, pastoral ordination in the

Southern Baptist Church, because he holds a lot of similar convictions that I do, because I think we went through this process probably around the same time.

We're in the same generation, and we saw a lot of things that discouraged us, and a lot of things that were weak, and things that we just didn't understand, and a lot of the consequences that came from those weaknesses that we saw, and things that we didn't understand.

So Pastor Jon, he takes ordination seriously. He takes the passages that he quoted, don't lay hands too hastily, very seriously, and that's why

I wanted to have him on. So I think he and I both agree that there's a lot of things that the

Southern Baptist Churches could do different and learn as we approach pastoral ordination.

So I appreciate what he does, and I appreciate him and his church, and I'm thankful for him as a brother, and that we have men and pastors out there that are taking things like this seriously, when maybe our denomination does not or has not called up.

So let's go ahead and wrap things up. And Jon, just like I normally do,

I know you love to do it, so I'm going to ask you to share the gospel with us, and then

I'll pray us out. Amen, amen. Well, a lot of people would say, how do you share the gospel from a conversation with ordination?

And I think it's really simple. The good news that I believe with all my heart tonight, that if you're listening to this,

God is reaching out to you. The Bible uses the word, He's ordained us for eternal life.

He set us apart to know Him. The Bible says the work of God is to know

Him and to know His Son, Jesus Christ. And so if you hear this tonight, just know it's not by accident that God is reaching out to you.

And what is God reaching out to you with? He's reaching out to you with the first reality that in the beginning

He created the world and it was all good. And then we have this chapter in the Bible, in Genesis chapter three, this significant event happens called the fall and sin entered into the world.

And the Bible says that at that point, from one man's sin, then all became sinful. And the evidence of that is how we've all sinned, the nature of sin that we all carry.

We've all told a lie before. We've all stolen something before. We were adulterous and lustful in our hearts and our minds and of the flesh and the works of the flesh.

We've stolen things before. All of those things break God's direct law, which makes us guilty before God.

When it means guilty, God being from a position of holiness, He can never, ever ignore our sin.

As a matter of fact, the Bible says that in order to receive eternal life, we have to be holy as He is holy or even perfect as He is perfect.

And yet me and Rob and Dan, we'd be the first to say we are so far from perfect.

And so if we've got to be perfect as He is perfect to have eternal life, to go to heaven, to have eternal life with Christ, then what hope is there when we know we're imperfect?

And the hope is this, that God sent His Son, Jesus, and Jesus came in perfection and He died on the cross.

And the Bible says this amazing statement. It says that He who knew no sin became sin so that we might have the righteousness of God.

And there's this incredible thing that happens there in the work of the cross that God took our sin in Isaiah 53, explicitly lays it out where He took our sin, our iniquity, our guilt, and put it on Christ.

And then the Bible says that He became the perpetuation, this satisfying work, this death and the shedding of His blood on the cross became the satisfying thing that paid for our sin.

And then in payment for that, our sin being put on Him in return, His righteousness and His perfection,

God took that and put it on us. And to me, that is such a tremendous mystery and an amazing thing.

And that can only happen from a loving Father who has ordained salvation for us.

We've been talking about the ordination of pastors and the ordination of leaders inside of a church. But don't miss the fact that Scripture says that we are ordained to be children of God.

Ephesians chapter one tells us that before the foundations of the world, that God did such a beautiful work that that He ordained us technically is the phraseology there that you were set apart to become into the image of His Son, Jesus.

And then He did that in love and mercy. He elected us for that. He consecrated us.

He set us apart. First Peter chapter two, I would tell you this, you were not a people, but now you are a people.

You had no name, but now you have His name, a royal priesthood.

That's a work of God and that is the gospel and that is good news. So tonight, how do you transition from this person that's condemned in their sin to this person that I'm telling you that's a royal priesthood, a child of God, one that's born again.

And the Bible tells us this, call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. I know there's a lot of doctrinal things and a lot of mystery that we could talk about tonight, but I really think it's that simple.

The Bible says that if you confess with your mouth and you believe in your heart and we know here tonight, if you do that, why you are, it's because God is calling out to you.

He is calling out to you. He is convicting you and you're asking in your mind, would God save somebody like me?

And the answer is yes. Yes, because Jesus paid the price and now you can call upon Him and be saved.

And we hope that you will. Let's pray together. Father, we give you all honor, glory, and praise.

And we lift high the name of Jesus. And we give you that not because you earned it or have to earn it, but because you deserve it.

You deserve it all. And so Father, we honor you, give you glory and praise.

Let's do your name. And Father, we thank you for our time together tonight.

We pray and hope that you were glorified. And those that were listening, they may listen in the future.

We pray that they will be edified to the work you've done here in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you

Pastor John for being on. We really appreciate it. And thank you all for watching. We appreciate you as well. Remember that Jesus is

King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ and continue to go out there and share the gospel of Christ.