Responding to LDS Critics

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May 9, 2023

Pastor Wade and Andrew Soncrant of Apologia Church Utah take time to respond to comments that were made about their latest reaction video on David Alexander. Did anyone actually engage with our arguments? Did Christianity start the tiff with Mormonism? Watch and share as we are Responding to LDS Critics.

00:00: Hey, what's up everyone? This is Pastor Wade Orsini. I'm with Andrew Sonkrant. It's good to see you guys again.
00:05: We are coming back to you today to really address what happened after our last video.
00:11: If you saw the last reaction video, actually our very first one, you would have seen that we were going over the testimony of a man named
00:20: David Alexander, recently a new convert to Mormonism, and he claims to have been an evangelical
00:28: Christian for 47 years, a pastor during that time, three different occasions.
00:35: And we were just going through his testimony little bit by little bit and just kind of dissecting it and really looking at the differences between biblical
00:44: Christianity and what now he is espousing in his belief as a
00:49: Mormon. And that got a lot of you really excited, which there was some great traffic and great questions and comments and discussions.
00:59: Some of you guys were pretty intense, and we want to go over some of your comments and really even take a look at what you have to say, and we want to address it.
01:10: We don't want to just leave it right there and let it go unanswered. We want to address some of what you guys have said, and that's what we're going to do today a bit.
01:18: Absolutely. I mean it needs to be done, right? We said specific things that are in the video, and we try to be very pointed.
01:26: We try to back up everything we were saying with the Bible and Scripture, and we even received feedback where it's like, well, you guys said in the beginning that you've never watched any of his videos before, so how can you talk about this man?
01:38: Well, guess what? We watched a six and a half minute video, and we responded to what was in that video, which we're fully capable of doing.
01:47: So anything that was in that video, the one that was done by True Millennial, it's the shorter version of the man's testimony, we responded to, and I think we responded fair enough.
01:56: And we responded to Mormonism in general. This was in no way a personal attack to David Alexander.
02:02: We're definitely praying for him. We're praying for all of you who participated in our comment section there.
02:10: So yeah, that's the basis of this. I see even some folks said, interesting that they said lovingly.
02:18: Look, the fact is, as we said, we even quoted from 1 Corinthians 13, love rejoices in the truth, in the truth.
02:27: And sometimes the truth is hard to accept, but it is the truth.
02:32: It is objective. It's transcendent. It's above our feelings. Truth doesn't care about our feelings.
02:39: And that's what we delivered that last video, and that's what we're going to do this time through the scriptures, through the only infallible rule and faith of practice and of God's word.
02:52: So. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you took a wide panoramic view of all of the comments that we received, respectfully,
02:59: I want to tell you, most people, I'd probably say 90 % of people didn't actually respond to the content that we actually produced.
03:06: You responded with your feelings, but you didn't respond to any of our arguments. If you really want to be taken seriously within our comment group for us to respond to you, try to interact with what we actually said instead of not reacting to any of it.
03:22: So that's important to understand. Yeah. I mean, I saw just over and over again, these guys are not genuine.
03:30: They're insincere. They're hateful. We saw a lot of that and you're entitled to your opinion.
03:37: We did not feel that way at all. We love our LDS neighbors.
03:43: We have people that we counsel all the time who are in the LDS church, who meet with us because they're questioning things.
03:51: And we love this group. We're literally in Utah because we do. And so, you know, that's really the heart of it.
03:59: You can believe that and it's fine, but it doesn't make it true. Yeah. And I want you to think about this as well.
04:06: Like Christians, we didn't start this. We didn't start the tiff between Mormonism or what you want to call it
04:14: Latter -day Saints and biblical Christianity. We actually didn't. There was a man in 1820 named
04:19: Joseph Smith who had a quote -unquote first vision. And this is part of it. Let me read it to you. It says,
04:25: I was answered that I must not join any of them for they were all wrong. And the personage who addressed me said that all the creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
04:37: They teach for doctrines, the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.
04:43: So in history at that point of time, when this is produced, Joseph Smith separated himself and the belief system, which would be known later in time as Mormonism, started it.
04:56: It started the conversation between Orthodox Christianity, which had been taught for millennia, and what he was now going to produce by saying that our creeds were an abomination and our professors are corrupt, that we don't actually truly know
05:12: God. And now he will give a revelation wherein you can actually know God. So I want you to understand that if you're an
05:19: LDS person who's listening, we didn't start it. We didn't. But it says in Jude to earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
05:29: So we are actually entitled to a response. But even within that, Joseph Smith says this, but the burden of proof doesn't rely on historic
05:38: Christianity. The burden of proof now relies upon Joseph Smith, his revelations, his prophecies, the
05:44: Book of Mormon, the Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, correct? Yeah. Since the historic church started with Christ and the apostles in the first century, and as Christ said, would never fail on the earth, would never go into apostasy in the sense that Mormonism speaks about, then they have to prove that it needs a full restoration.
06:11: You guys have to prove that it needs a restoration. The burden of proof is on you.
06:17: And I mean, the reality is when Joseph Smith said this from the first vision, we have ancestors, dear brothers and sisters in Christ who fled from England, who fled from Europe.
06:35: They came to the Americas seeking to worship God away from Rome the way that the
06:42: Bible has demonstrated from the times of Christ. You had solid
06:47: Presbyterians solid Congregationalists, Baptists and Methodists. There's people who are there at this time in America, and this man came and said, all of their professors are corrupt.
07:06: All their creeds are an abomination. Their hearts, he speaks for our ancestors, for our dear beloved brothers and sisters in Christ during that time.
07:18: He says they're an abomination, right? And so that's a huge attack on people who love
07:27: Jesus. And so just think about the hypocrisy that's happening here is they said that people that we love, people that we can draw back in time that our families are in lineage of saying they're damned.
07:47: So that's really where it begins. Exactly. Like I don't take what Joseph said personal, like I really don't, but I want you to understand that we didn't start it.
07:56: We're responding to what Joseph started. Okay. And that's the belief system in which you follow.
08:04: So I don't think it is wise to claim like victimhood or persecution when we're actually responding to what
08:11: Joseph Smith started. All right. But let's go ahead. We're going to pull up some of these comments and let's do some responses.
08:16: All right. All right. Okay. Let's see here. I pulled it up and here's one of the first ones we are actually going to respond to here.
08:23: And this is from Catherine Shiver. I'm not sure how to pronounce your name, but I mean, you commented on our page.
08:31: So we'll just go ahead and use you here as an example. Now I'm going to read it out and let's see what we need to say to it.
08:36: Okay, Wade? Sure. Yeah. I think I've realized now how tired I am of people in the quote unquote
08:41: Christian denominations telling us to quit talking about works. Get a freaking grip. What is sin?
08:46: Doing something wrong. So what is doing good works? Doing things right. What does it mean to be obedient?
08:52: To do things you're told to do. What is doing things? Doing works. What is repentance and why is it needed?
08:58: Being sorry for doing things wrong and wanting to be better, needing to have access to the atonement of Jesus Christ.
09:04: Go read the Bible. Body for all, blood for many. So Catherine, we appreciate your comment there.
09:16: I guess the way I want to start this out is
09:22: I want to challenge you to think in proper categories, okay?
09:29: Categories are good things. Helps us think properly, work through things.
09:37: The Bible displays proper categories. It's the way God made us. And so basically, we've got to think about how are we declared righteous before a holy
09:49: God, which is called the doctrine of justification, versus the doctrine of sanctification, that is, after God has saved a people for his own possession, how he's sanctifying them, which means setting them apart, making them holy, bringing them to completion in Christ.
10:11: And so really, it's like we're talking about the root of salvation versus the fruit of salvation.
10:19: What saves you as opposed to what does it look like to be saved? That's the category differences we're talking about.
10:29: And so when you hear evangelicals talk about works in the scope of Mormonism, it often sounds negative because we're concerned that our
10:41: LDS neighbors and their doctrines and their prophets and presidents have articulated not the fruit of salvation, but they've articulated that works are the root of salvation.
10:55: What justifies you? That's what we have an issue with because that goes against the very
11:01: Word of God, okay? That's what we're coming from. If you were to go to my church on Sunday, if you were to go to, we have a women's ministry meeting tonight, they're going to talk about works with glee, okay?
11:18: They're going to talk about good deeds as wonderful things. Why? Because they're already believers.
11:25: They're already believers, and now that they've been saved and those things don't earn their salvation, they're things that, with a changed heart, they want to perform now because God's commanded them to do them as sanctified, saved people, regenerate people, people who, according to Ephesians 2, were once dead in their trespasses and sins but now have been made alive in Christ, can now, by His grace, walk in the works that God has prepared beforehand, okay?
11:59: That's what we're talking about. Real quick, if I just go to, this is all over.
12:06: This is simply all over the Word of God, you know, for by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in His sight.
12:14: If I go to Romans chapter 4, it says, what shall we say then that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
12:22: For if Abraham was justified, that is, declared righteous by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
12:32: For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
12:38: So here, works are put in opposition to faith or belief.
12:43: Faith or belief are not works here according to the Bible. They're something that are given by God, according to Ephesians 2 and other places.
12:53: Now it says, verse 4 of Romans 4, now the one who works, so the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
13:05: That is to say, if I'm an employee of the workplace and I've worked for my boss,
13:12: I'm owed a wage for what I've done. I've made an agreement with my boss that I'll work this many hours and I'll perform x task and I'll get paid for it.
13:22: But he says this, but to the one who does not work, but simply believes in him, that is
13:31: God, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited or reckoned as righteousness.
13:39: Okay, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works, blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven and those whose sins have been covered.
13:50: Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. And so this is the fundamental basis of salvation is the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.
14:10: That is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is solely what saves us.
14:18: It is the sole foundation of what saves anyone. And so if it's all
14:24: Jesus, then we are simply beneficiaries. And that means that we are recipients of what's called grace.
14:31: And I know you all use that term grace, and we'll talk about what we see in LDS doctrine of what that means for you guys.
14:39: But grace truly for it to be grace has to be completely unmerited, unworked for us.
14:45: He said, the one who doesn't work gets these things. That is the foundation is not earned.
14:53: The foundation of salvation is not a wage. It's not a transaction where I've done something and I get it.
15:01: I'm simply, according to scripture, dead in my trespasses and sin and he made me alive.
15:07: It's purely his gift. Right? Because when you give Catherine when you give
15:13: I'm sure you give your kids if you have kids, if you don't, I'm sure you will at some point. Or you at least have nephews and nieces or cousins or someone.
15:23: When you give gifts, it's not because these people have been mowing your lawn or anything.
15:30: It's not a gift. It's not a gift. It's something that they've earned. And that's the foundation of our salvation.
15:40: So those are the categories that I want you to think in. After we've been saved, after we've been changed and transformed, yes, obedience.
15:50: Absolutely. He says in Romans chapter six, it says, shall we continue in sin that grace may increase?
15:57: May it never be. How can we who have died to sin continue to live in it? He then says, just as we've been buried with Christ and raised with him, walk in the newness of life.
16:08: Every Pauline epistle starts out with this amazing theology, this ontology, a high
16:15: Christology. It talks about how we're saved, the basis of our salvation, these wonderful theological truths.
16:22: Almost every Pauline epistle starts out that way. Then the latter half is always like, okay, because God did this, now live like this.
16:31: Now you're able to live like this. And so yes, good works, but the good works are something he's prepared beforehand that we would walk in by his grace.
16:42: The grace has to be initiated first. So I've talked a lot. Go ahead.
16:47: Amen, dude. Amen. I love that. So yeah, let's talk about this a little more. Let's flesh it out a little bit because you do use words here that Christians use, right?
16:57: Like, well, what is sin? Well, we know according to God's word, it says sin is a transgression against the law of God, doing something wrong.
17:04: Well, according to who? Well, according to God and his standard, I would say the Bible. What does it mean to be obedient?
17:10: I think that is a great question. That's a great question. Being obedient to God is doing what
17:15: God commands, but that's not the question that you actually have. The question that is being asked here is being obedient, what the
17:24: LDS organization teaches as being obedient. What does it mean to be obedient to you?
17:30: Is it Moroni 1032? If you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all your might, mind and strength, then his grace is sufficient for you.
17:40: So his grace comes after your obedience. Your obedience is the prerequisite of receiving grace.
17:47: Well, according to what Pastor Wade said here, when he was going through Romans now, then it's no longer a gift. It's no actually grace.
17:55: And that obedience that you have is essentially you working for what? Your justification.
18:01: And I mean, this is not something that is not taught within the LDS organization. I mean, you can read the book,
18:07: The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, and this is talked about, right? Like you have to do specific things.
18:15: You've heard it, be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. We can get into what that means according to the
18:21: Bible. But when you hear that, interpret that through a lens. And that lens is the
18:26: Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and the Prophets of History. And then you read that into the
18:34: Bible. That's because you adhere to LDS theology. We don't adhere to LDS theology, so we don't interpret the
18:41: Bible through that lens. Okay? We read the But the question is, is what does that even mean to be perfectly obedient?
18:51: Can you be perfectly obedient? Have you been perfectly obedient? Ask yourself right now.
18:56: Have you loved the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength? Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?
19:04: If your answer is no, I'd have to say that his grace is not sufficient for you.
19:11: It's as simple as that. It's impossible. You can't do it. But if we think about it in LDS theology, that your theology is based upon a covenant, right?
19:23: Your covenant between what you made between Elohim and yourself.
19:30: Do you break that covenant is the question. Is your salvation predicated upon your covenant between God, or is it predicated between Jesus Christ's covenant and the
19:41: Father? Because let me read you something. This is from the Miracle of Forgiveness, page 57. This is Spencer W.
19:47: Kimball wrote it in 1969. A few years later, he actually became the president of the church. Says this about the covenant breaker, the person who was baptized in the
19:54: LDS organization. He says, akin to many of the other sins is that of the covenant breaker. The person baptized promises to keep all the laws and commandments of God.
20:04: So when you were baptized in the LDS organization, you promised to keep all the laws and commandments of God.
20:10: He has partaken of the sacrament and re -pledged his allegiance and his fidelity, promising and covenanting that he will keep all
20:16: God's laws. Numerous folks have gone to the temples and have re -covenanted that they would live all the commandments of God, keep their lives clean, devoted, worthy, and serviceable.
20:25: Yet there are many who forget their covenants and break the commandments, sometimes deliberately tempting the faithful away with them.
20:35: Well, in terms of what we're hearing here from Spencer W. Kimball is that you must keep all of the laws and the commandments of God.
20:43: You have to. And if you're not doing that, you're actually being that of a covenant breaker. I mean, it sounds like a big burden and a yoke to place on somebody to say that they're perfect.
20:52: The Bible actually tells us that if we say we are without sin, then the truth is not in us.
20:58: I mean, I'm going to die being somebody who is not perfect in terms of my sanctification.
21:06: But again, the covenant that I rely on as a Christian that saves me is the covenant that the angel of the
21:13: Lord, Jesus Christ, the pre -incarnate word made with the Father, in terms of the covenant of redemption, then shown to Abraham in Genesis when there was a covenant cut.
21:26: Abraham had nothing to do with the covenant. Can you explain it? Yeah. So at the basis of Spencer W.
21:33: Kimball's quote is covenant breaking. Is it possible to be in the
21:39: New Testament, new covenant church and be a covenant breaker in the sense that he's talking about?
21:48: And so what Andrew was speaking about is what is the basis of the covenant?
21:56: And the covenant is this contract, right? And there's two parties typically who agree to this covenant.
22:04: And in Genesis chapter 15, we see the basis of the new covenant that's going to come with Christ.
22:13: It's typological, pointing to the covenant of grace. And it says that the
22:19: Lord had Abraham get all these animals and then brought all these things.
22:28: He brought all these things to God. He cut them in two. He laid each half opposite of the other. And what that is, is actually making a covenant is cutting a covenant.
22:39: And so you would cut these animals and you would line these animals up and each half is on each side.
22:45: And to cut a covenant, each party in agreement would walk through the pathway of the dead animals, the halved animals.
22:55: And basically what you're saying is, if I don't uphold my end of this, let me be like these animals.
23:02: Let me be cut in half. Let me die. Essentially, that's how serious it was to cut a covenant.
23:08: And so it goes on to show that at the time when Abraham should have walked through making a covenant with God, pointing to the new covenant of Christ, at the time that Abraham should have walked through, it says, now, when the sun was going down,
23:23: God had a deep sleep to fall upon Abraham. A deep sleep.
23:29: And really what it shows and what he said with the angel of the Lord, God walked through, that is, that angel of the
23:36: Lord is what's called a theophany. It's an appearance of God. It's not actually a created angel.
23:41: It's the Lord himself. We know and through the book of Hebrews shows that it probably could have been the pre -incarnate
23:49: Christ. God himself walked through the pathway of the covenant.
23:55: Abraham was made to fall asleep. And that is to say that he made the agreement with himself.
24:02: Hebrews 6, verse 13 says, for when God made the promise to Abraham, since he could swear by no one greater, he swore by himself saying,
24:15: I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply you. And he walked through the covenant by himself, made
24:23: Abraham fall asleep, which is typological pointing to us. The fact is all of us never walked through the covenant.
24:32: Only God did. If this covenant was in any way contingent upon us, we would fail.
24:39: We would break it. But it's a covenant between Christ and his father that Christ is going to live perfectly obedient.
24:48: Christ is going to uphold the law in perfection. Christ is then going to be the one who's the perfect sacrifice, spotless and unblemished, the scapegoat on which all sin of the elect is cast.
25:02: It's on him. And he is the high priest who will take his own blood, shake it before the mercy seat, atoning for all wrath, propitiating for all wrath that was meant for us.
25:14: And it was done, it says, once for all that day, it was completed.
25:20: And it's all contingent upon him. It's an agreement in which only
25:26: God signs it. And we're simply beneficiaries. We're beneficiaries. It's probably a poor analogy, but it's like when there's a, you know, a sort of document, a living will, a trust or something where someone has to die and then people who didn't do anything get to receive an inheritance.
25:50: Jesus was the one who died. And then we simply get to be beneficiaries of what that death and resurrection attained, eternal life.
26:00: And so the point is we couldn't do it. Abraham was put asleep and it's all on him to uphold his own agreement with us.
26:14: There were covenant breakers. Jesus woed them and rebuked them in Matthew 23, but then inaugurated in Christ was this new covenant in which we are now simply beneficiaries and not contractual parties.
26:29: – Exactly. So my salvation is not predicated, like my salvation in terms of my justification being declared righteous before God is not predicated on my perfect obedience.
26:43: It's predicated on the perfection of Jesus Christ, who is
26:48: God in the flesh and His work alone that satisfies the Father because He is sinless and He is perfect, spotless sacrifice.
26:56: And this was something that was actually prophesied to occur all the way back in Genesis 3. It says, from the seed of the woman, you will come to crush the head of the serpent who will bruise his heel.
27:06: And that's referring to Jesus Christ. So this is something that God had declared from the beginning to happen.
27:14: I mean, He declares it all. It's the counsel of His will. It straight says it in Isaiah multiple times. So it's a beautiful thing, but to understand what obedience means, we actually have to look to the
27:24: Bible to understand where our salvation comes from. Again, –
27:29: Categories. – It's different categories. We don't have a license to sin, right? Absolutely not. Christians don't even believe that because you may hear this and you may go, well, just go sin all you want because God's grace is sufficient for you.
27:39: It says, no, we uphold the law now because we have a renewed heart.
27:45: So this actually gets into the conversation as well about what salvation actually does for an individual and how repentance comes, faith and repentance.
27:55: So explain that a little bit too, because she does talk about that in her comment. – Sure. So the reality is just as there is only one party that works out this salvation, that is
28:09: God, we will also be sanctified by God.
28:15: It says in Philippians 1, it says, he who began a good work in you, that is salvation, will bring it to completion or perfection in Christ, in Christ, and he will perform it.
28:29: It later says in Philippians 2, it says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
28:40: So there's this mysterious aspect of our sanctification, not our justification, our sanctification, where it says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
28:51: It doesn't say work for, it doesn't say work by, it says work out, outward, something that's already been done inward, because in the very next verse it says, after Philippians chapter 2,
29:05: I think that's verse 11 and 12 right there, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, it'll then say the very next verse, for it is
29:13: God who is at work in you to will and to work for his good pleasure.
29:20: So there is this amazing thing where God is going to be the one that's sanctifying us, bringing us to this completion, and he's the one, according to Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10, he's the one who prepares the good works for us to walk in beforehand, right?
29:36: And then we simply get to, once again, participate. We participate and we're admonished to participate.
29:45: We're called to flee sexual immorality. We're called to flee jealousies, gossip, lust, strife, everything, lying.
29:59: Now, because we have changed hearts, we want to do those things.
30:05: We have the capacity now to obey God. Before, we had no capacity to obey
30:11: God. So even in Catherine's question, it says, what is sin?
30:17: It's doing what's wrong. What are good works? It's doing what is good. But I would argue, doing good works are only possible, they're only good if I'm in Christ.
30:30: That phrase, just do a concordance search on a Bible app, in Christ, in Christ. All my works prior did nothing to remedy the thing where you said, what is sin?
30:43: Doing what's wrong. My good works, it's not on this balancing scale where I hope at the end, the good works will outweigh the bad.
30:52: It says, no, apart from Christ, that scale is broken, right? That scale doesn't work.
30:59: I need a replacement. I need something that says, apart from anything I do as the basis of my salvation, it's
31:09: Christ's work alone that saves me. And because of that reality, because of that change,
31:14: I'm now able to obey God. I'm now able to obey
31:19: God. And there's still repentance. There's still daily repentance.
31:26: You guys, we're repenting daily. We're throwing and casting off our sins.
31:32: But we understand what the word of God says in that none of that repentance, none of those things.
31:40: And I'm not going to list off good works we do. We're not here to boast about ourselves. But the good works that we do perform,
31:47: I know you would argue we probably don't, but the good works we do get to do, they don't put me again on this balancing scale where, well,
31:57: I hope I'm saved today. And I hope I'm, you know, maybe I'm not today. It's again, that was trashed.
32:05: We now get to perform these things because we're alive. Well, it's because it's accredited to us as righteousness.
32:11: So the good works then thus flow because the wages of that righteousness now is the good works that come out from us because we're first credited righteousness to us by Christ on our behalf.
32:23: And just to echo your statement here in sanctification, it says this, and it's in 1
32:28: Thessalonians 5 .23. It says, now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our
32:36: Lord Jesus Christ. And I want to present with you guys something, okay? I want you to challenge, I want to challenge you.
32:42: I want you to put your Christian lens on. Try to have a Christian lens real quick. What's better? I'm going to talk about the gospel here.
32:48: I am justified solely through the work of Jesus Christ, the eternal God who died on the cross for my sins.
32:56: It says in the scriptures, he's a propitiation for my sins, that he paid them in full so that when
33:01: I die and I get to stand before God, I am declared righteous solely through the work of Jesus Christ, Christian gospel.
33:09: I deserve hell. Jesus died so that I could live and through belief in him, I can have eternal life.
33:15: Now I'm going to present you with the LDS gospel, the plan of salvation. One day you can become a God, but you got to learn how to become a
33:22: God, all right? There's a man who came in the world. He was the offspring of Elohim and heavenly mother in the premortal existence.
33:30: And he lived a righteous life and he made it possible for you to become a God. But guess what?
33:35: It is upon you and your obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles in order to reach the highest level of exaltation.
33:44: And when you repent of your sin, you better not do it again. Because if you do it again, there's no grace for you.
33:50: Remember Moroni 10 32. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the
33:56: Lord with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, right?
34:01: Which one sounds better? Be honest with yourself. Listen, this is Spencer W. Kimball again.
34:06: Now he's quoting from, uh, he's paraphrasing from doctrine and covenants section 82 seven. And he says this in the miracle of forgiveness on pages one 69 and one 70, this is the 35th and 35th.
34:16: I believe you got anniversary edition. It states this old sins return says the
34:21: Lord in his modern revelations. Many people either do not know this or they conveniently forget it.
34:27: Go your ways and sin no more. The Lord warned. And again, it says this unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins return the
34:36: Lord, your God, that's your gospel. That's your gospel. That's not the gospel in the Bible. I may make a mistake, but it's not all my sins come back to me.
34:44: Right. It says in the book of James that if you seek, uh, help, help me out here.
34:50: It says, if you fail in one part of the law, you fail in all of it, but that's before your salvation.
34:55: That's before your salvation. It's showing how your works can't give you salvation. Cause if you fail in one part, you fail in at all
35:02: Romans chapter three, there is no one who seeks after God. No one who understands God. All have gone astray. The venom of asps is under their lips from their throats.
35:10: There's an open grave. That's talking about the position of man before God, right? That we're all sinners.
35:17: None of us are perfect. And we're born that way. No one seeks God in Adam. I'll die in Christ.
35:23: All can be made alive. But again, what's the gospel. Jesus did it for me or you must be obedient in order to receive grace, which one's better.
35:36: Be honest, please. You know, even what, uh, Kimball says here reminds me of the promises in Psalm 103.
35:44: It says, um, for as high as the heavens are above the earth.
35:49: So great is his loving kindness towards those who fear him. As far as the
35:54: East is from the West. So far has he removed our transgressions from us.
36:00: Just as the father has compassion on his children. So the Lord has compassion on his children.
36:06: And he himself knows our frame. He even goes on to say that he remembers our sin no more.
36:13: And that's on the basis of Jesus that our sin was actually atoned for.
36:19: It was actually taken care of on the cross. All of it, all of it, either all of our sin or none or none of our sin was fully taken care of on the cross.
36:32: And, uh, I would argue, I think the Bible would argue that our sin was fully taken care of when he says in John 19 to tell us die, he says it is finished.
36:43: He didn't simply mean his crucifixion was over. He meant the mission that he came here to perform was completed.
36:52: What was his mission for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever would believe on him will not perish, but have eternal life.
37:03: That's his mission. And he accomplished it. And it doesn't say that he made that everlasting life of possibility.
37:11: He actually did it for the ones whom he died for. Amen. We're not gods in embryo.
37:18: We're not, I'm not ontologically the same being as God in a pre -mortal that came from a pre -mortal existence who is now in a, what is the word that's used?
37:28: I'm in a testing period, uh, in order to be obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles so that one day
37:34: I can become a God. I mean, it's so far removed from the Bible, uh, that honestly, what, what has to happen when you guys make these claims is that you're reading into the
37:46: Bible, the book of Mormon, the doctrine and covenants and the pearl of great price in order to extrapolate these things.
37:53: Even, even when God says, uh, be your be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.
37:58: The way you look at that scripture is through the lens of Spencer W. Kimball, that you got to be perfect, that you must be obedient Moroni 1032 in order to achieve this celestial
38:10: Godhood. And you must do it now in this mortal probation. That's the word I was looking for. And after, if you wait and procrastinate until after mortal probation, guess what?
38:20: Too late for you. You're not going to become a God. I mean, that's why you're here now, but guess what?
38:25: That's not the gospel. That's not the gospel. And again, the burden of proof is on Joseph Smith.
38:31: He claims to be a prophet. You have a revelation, but you have to prove it.
38:37: And the Bible warns us. It warns us very clearly that they're in second Corinthians 11, four, please pull out your
38:44: Bibles and look at this. It says that there will be people who preach a different Jesus, a different gospel in a different spirit.
38:51: And you've got to be honest because in these comments, we see it all the time. It's like, well, what do you keep saying? G different Jesus.
38:56: There's only one Jesus, Jesus. This, we believe in Jesus that let's be honest guys. I'm going to quote one of your past presidents, one of your past prophets.
39:05: And this is what he says in terms of an interview. He was given talking about the traditional Jesus, the
39:10: Orthodox view of Christianity throughout the millennia and the LDS organizations view. He says this.
39:16: No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom
39:21: I speak. This is Gordon B Hinckley for the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this dispensation of the fullness of times.
39:28: He together with the father appeared to the boy, Joseph Smith in the year 1820. And when Joseph left the Grove that day, he knew more about the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospels of the ages.
39:38: That's from the LDS church news week, June 20th, 1998, page seven. Again, your prophet at that time said it's a different Jesus than the
39:47: Orthodox belief. Traditional Christianity is the word would say it. So it's not just the
39:53: Bible that says it, even Gordon says it. So if you get a different Jesus, you're going to end up with a different gospel.
39:59: And I think we actually very clearly described what the biblical gospel is and what the
40:05: Mormon or LDS gospel is. And forgive me if I keep using the word Mormon and you don't like it.
40:10: I mean, Mormonism is a body of teaching of a belief. So that's what I'm going to, that's, that's just what
40:15: I'm going to use. But, but yeah, I mean, I don't think you can get any clearer than that. We have to understand that it's by far one of the most important things in terms of biblical
40:27: Christianity is knowing who Jesus is. And if you're going to bring about a different Jesus at a time, the burden of proof is not on historic
40:38: Christianity. The burden of proof is on Joseph. Yep. Yep. I I'll be real quick with this one.
40:44: Go up to go up to the comment right above it. Oh, okay. Perfect. Yeah. That's what we're doing. I forgot we're doing that.
40:50: All right. This one right here where it says the, you cannot create matter. Is that the one? Yeah. I'm going to read it and then
40:56: I'll let you say stuff. Okay. Yeah. It says you cannot create matter slash something out of nothing. It's impossible.
41:02: Matter is an eternal substance. It is always existed to LDS. Don't believe that only they will be saved in God's kingdom.
41:09: They teach that in order highest level of celestial kingdom, one needs to make the sacred temple covenants with God. Most all mankind is saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
41:19: And we'll get to that right about now. What do you want to say, Pastor Wade? And thank you for actually responding to something we said.
41:24: Yeah. Appreciate that young in spirit. I'm sure you're very youthful. So I saw this real quick and it reminded me of my devotional study that I'm doing right now in the book of Hebrews.
41:42: And from my understanding, is this correct, Andrew, is
41:48: LDS don't believe in ex nihilo creation, right?
41:53: They believe that matter had to exist for matter to come into creation.
42:00: It was merely organized. Yeah. Yep. So what I'll say to that real quick was what reminded me of that is that Hebrews chapter 11, before the
42:11: Hebrews 11 hall of fame of all these wonderful men and women of the faith, it talks about what faith is.
42:20: And it says in Hebrews 11 three, by faith, we understand that the world was prepared by the word of God so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
42:35: So even that word in the Greek prepared, it's means to complete finished.
42:46: The world's weren't finished or complete, uh, weren't completed by things that already existed.
42:54: They were completed by the word of God. It wasn't matter. So the world was made by the word of God so that what we see that is what is material was not made out of things which are visible.
43:09: That is invisible things that never were things that come from the word of God, the power of the word of God.
43:19: Genesis chapter one says in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was what formless and void, formless and void.
43:29: There was no form. It was a complete void. There was no material.
43:36: And it's by the uncreated invisible God, the triune
43:43: God that matter came into being. And God doesn't need himself to be a flesh and blood or something like that to be able to create matter, flesh and bone.
43:56: Yeah. He he's, he's, uh, he is all powerful. He has the capacity and the power to be able to create out of nothing.
44:07: And so, uh, that's just quick response. And we talked about this in the first video as well, which no one responded to.
44:13: We actually went into the Greek of John one. We had the two verbs that we mentioned there in, in Egonetto references in terms of the word means without origin of space or time in reference to anything that the word was there.
44:30: And then he was Jesus on, they on face to face with God, always there from as far back as you want to stretch it there.
44:39: And then in terms of all things that were created, it states the verb Egonetto, which means actually came into origin as matter in time, in space, in this physical realm in which we understand it, meaning that he made it out of nothing, right?
44:56: That came into being that came into substance that came into tapping on a table here form.
45:02: Then when, when God declared it in the beginning, God, he was already there. When John is relating back to the created order in Genesis chapter one, that's you got to get that.
45:13: But I also want to say something young spirit. I don't think you're actually fully correct in your LDS, uh, understanding of doctrine. You state that they teach in order to reach the highest level of the celestial kingdom.
45:22: One needs to make sacred temple covenants with God. No, clearly I just read to you from Spencer W. Kimball. That's not it.
45:28: That's not it. You don't just make the covenants and then you're good. Nope. You actually must do what 10 32.
45:35: If you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you?
45:41: Have you been obedient to all the gospel ordinances and principles? Have you perfectly upheld the word of wisdom? Are you not reading?
45:46: You're watching the video from quote unquote anti -Mormons right now. Is that loving the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength? Are you disobeying
45:52: God in some form or way or action? Have you not truly repented of some sin? Your temple covenants won't save you.
46:00: No, they condemn you because you in your covenants are covenanting in an agreement that you must uphold in order for grace to have an effect on you.
46:09: I don't want that for you. I want you to know the true biblical Jesus. Who's the actual true and living God who died for you so that you could actually receive the gift of grace, right?
46:20: It says in Galatians that if you seek to be justified by the works of the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on you.
46:27: The gospel you've been believing is the opposite. It says that you don't get grace unless you actually have to work for it.
46:35: And that it just, it turns the biblical gospel on its head. So I just want to throw that out, throw that in there, young and spirit.
46:41: If you're going to talk about some of your doctrines, I think you should actually be more specific.
46:47: Either you're not making clarification for a specific reason, or maybe you're ignorant to it. But if you're not making clarification for a specific reason, why is that?
46:55: Why wouldn't you want people to know? I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just saying if that is the case, but if you're ignorant to it, maybe you should ask some questions to your bishop.
47:05: Yeah, I'm just looking through some of these seeking truth in all things says. Okay, let me find it. Let me find it. How do we know evangelical preachers are not just trying to recruit and keep their followers due to it being their income?
47:18: I'm sure that's probably a problem. That's probably an issue. TBN preachers are an example of that.
47:26: That's wicked, and I think they show that they are not truly in Christ, that they haven't been justified by faith because they reject and use their office for sordid gain.
47:41: So how do we trust them when there is a major conflict of interest in maintaining their religious businesses?
47:48: You know what? This is Christ's church. This is his church, and I will gladly take a full -time job in addition to all the counseling, discipling, preaching, teaching,
48:04: Greek work, Hebrew work, administration that we do. I will do that.
48:10: Whatever it takes to build his church here in Utah will do. I'm simply being given to, cared for by the church because the
48:23: Scripture says I should be, because the Scripture says I should. Again, the
48:29: Mormon church doesn't allow for that, and that's very wrong. Why can they not have a normal job where they can gain different perspectives and worldviews and not be so close -minded?
48:40: You know, I've had many different jobs my whole life, but I would agree with Solomon in the book of Proverbs where it says, the beginning of knowledge and wisdom is fear of the
48:56: Lord and with his word. So I would say that it's in the word of God that I will be able to understand all perspectives properly, worldviews, right?
49:09: Yeah, yeah. Hold on. Let me say something as well. Again, I want to remind you of Joseph Smith and his first vision.
49:16: He stated, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and those professors were all corrupt.
49:24: They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They teach for doctrines, the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
49:32: Please don't pretend to be open -minded. All of us have some form of standard that is our ultimate, and yours is
49:39: Joseph and his revelations. Please do not claim to be open -minded when the only way you believe that you can be made right with God and get to celestial kingdom is through the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles.
49:53: So you may say you can pick and choose beliefs from other systems just to gain some type of worldliness, but guess what?
50:00: That does not get you godhood. So don't pretend to be open -minded. Let's be honest here.
50:07: The last thing I'll say to this, seeking truth in all things, it says, how can we trust them?
50:14: And so what I want to do is call you all to consistency to remove this hypocrisy, because what
50:26: I see is an organization that from the mouths of people who used to be
50:36: Latter -day Saints, who've sat in front of me with tears, have said they have checked on my financial situation.
50:48: Some have even said they've gone so far as to look at my tax returns. This is really hypocritical, coming from an organization that mandates tithes to be able to have temple recommends.
51:07: And what do temple recommends do? Allow you to participate in baptismal rites, proxy for the dead, to do the things that are necessary for celestial exaltation.
51:22: So we don't do that in the Christian church. We're not commanded to make sure everyone tithes.
51:31: We leave that between them and God, that the
51:36: Bible says we ought to be cheerful givers, and that it's something that Paul says is on the basis of what
51:44: God has purposed in their hearts. And Jesus says to do your giving in secret, to not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
51:56: And you have an organization that it's demonstrable. It's in the news.
52:02: They've even used tithings and offerings from people, charitable givings, that are supposed to be used for the needy and for the care of church.
52:15: And they've used those to buy stocks and capitalize on those givings.
52:22: And they've built, everyone knows it, we live here in Salt Lake County, they built City Creek Mall with tithing money.
52:30: They built a for -profit mall with tithing money. There's issues going on right now with the
52:36: SEC and the IRS, and it's a multi -billion dollar organization through stressful tactics to make sure people are giving.
52:48: I'm telling you, this has flesh and blood. There's people been in front of me who said they were actually pressured by bishops or stake presidents that they have to give a certain way.
53:00: Where is the loving, sacrificial, non -coerced giving that we see in the
53:10: Bible, right? That reminds me of Pharisees. Pharisees would mandate that their proselytites and their disciples would give a certain amount, and they'd bring all their money and show all their people and they'd present it to the temple.
53:27: That's not the right heart of it. That's not what we're supposed to do.
53:33: So you say, how can you trust us? If we're preaching the truth, we're fully transparent with our funds.
53:42: We have members budget meetings. Everyone has access. Everyone can look at every penny that we spend.
53:48: The church and the leaders decide what kind of care needs to be given for my family to be able to live here and to serve the community and serve the church.
54:00: And again, all the leaders in the LDS church, maybe not on a local level, which is wrong, but on a higher level, they all have salaries.
54:09: They all have salaries. There's a big, very large corporate building downtown that is filled with people who are being paid to work there for a church.
54:20: They call themselves a church. It's a huge corporate building. I don't have a corporate building.
54:27: We don't even own our own church building. We rent it. So, you know, it's just, please consider the hypocrisy in your statement.
54:40: Okay. Man. And what I've heard as well is that the actual legal name of the
54:46: Mormon church is the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. And they're doing business as the
54:52: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, which is a registered trademark of an intellectual reserve.
54:58: So actually, President Elton is a CEO of a corporation. So please look into it. Let's not act hypocritical.
55:05: Like Pastor Wade said, it's a great explanation. And the Bible, again, states that pastors, they should actually be paid for what they're doing.
55:16: Do not muzzle the ox while it treads. That's what Paul clearly states in the word in reference to paying those who are worth their due, their preaching and teaching the word of God.
55:28: Amen, dude. Amen to that. Let's take a look and see if there is another question that we can answer here before we move forward.
55:35: Yeah. Wasn't there something about, why do you keep saying there's different Christ? Oh, let's talk about that a little bit.
55:42: Oh yeah. I even read that quote a little bit earlier. Because even David Alexander says multiple times that there's different Jesus.
55:48: In fact, watch David Alexander's recent video where he addresses
55:54: Pastor Jeff of HelloSaints. And you'll see the man you're defending here in our comment section, even he himself says that there's multiple
56:06: Christ, but he's not the standard. Let's talk about the standard. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. So yeah, like David Alexander says in that video, he says that Jeff from HelloSaints is building off ramps from Mormonism into whatever it is that Pastor Jeff believes.
56:23: So first of all, I'd say that Pastor Jeff, if he submits to the Bible as the inerrant and fallible word of God, he believes in the
56:30: Jesus Christ of scripture. So he's bringing people into faith with a true and living God with a faith that actually saves you through the work of Jesus Christ and not obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles like we talked about earlier.
56:41: So hallelujah. Praise the Lord for that. We have different styles of missions work, but if he's doing the
56:47: Lord's work, we appreciate him. Yeah, absolutely. But that's the thing, right? There are, according to the
56:53: Bible, we are warned in second Corinthians 11 verse four. There's people who will preach about a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different spirit.
56:59: Scripture says it. Scripture says it. So that's my objective standard. And so when Joseph has a revelation, like he said in his first vision, the burden of proof is on him.
57:09: So me as a Christian, I go, well, the Bible tells me what to test the spirits. And it tells me that there's people who will preach a different Jesus.
57:15: So I'm going to test what Joseph says about God to his previous revelation, right?
57:21: And go from there. And I'm not going to look at the previous revelation through the lens of Mormonism to interpret it.
57:28: So what I mean by that is this. It's Joseph who claims that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts.
57:34: Well, I don't believe Joseph yet, so I'm not going to believe that. I'm going to look at what the word of God actually says about his word.
57:41: Proverbs 35 through six, every word of God is pure. He is like a shield unto them who put their faith in him. Add thou not into these words, lest he rebuke you, thou shalt be found a liar.
57:48: Isaiah 48, the grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our Lord shall endure forever. Jesus, heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words by no means will ever pass away, right?
57:58: God preserves his word throughout time, number one. But in terms of Jesus and who he is, we presented you guys with an argument from the first video that Jesus Christ has, was, and will always be
58:11: God. The Bible states that he's the same yesterday, today, and forever. Okay. Joseph says, you have imagined and supposed that God has been
58:19: God from all eternity. I will refute the idea and take away the veil so that you may see you have got to learn to become gods.
58:25: And even before that in the King Follett discourse, he says, it's the first and most important principle to understand the nature and character of God.
58:31: I agree with you, but I don't agree with you what you say about God after that. And the reason why I disagree with you,
58:38: Joseph, is because Deuteronomy 13. Deuteronomy 13 tells me if someone comes along, it says, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs, and wonders.
58:47: So even if it looks legit, but they lead you after another God, a God of which you have not known, do not believe them.
58:53: Previous revelation says about God that he has been God from everlasting into everlasting. Psalm 90 verse two,
59:00: I'm the first, I'm the last beside me. There is no God. Isaiah 44, six, Isaiah 43, 10. We can go on and on and on ad nauseum because the old
59:10: Testament and the new Testament is just, it's irrefutable monotheism.
59:16: Like we have to understand that it's in the Bible. So when Joseph wants to lead me to becoming a
59:23: God one day to a Jesus Christ, who was once some intelligence who then took on the form of offspring between Elohim and heavenly mother, you're presenting me with a different God, okay?
59:37: Because the Bible says the same yesterday, today, and forever in terms of his ontological being as God.
59:44: Yes, the word took on flesh in time and space, but that didn't change his being. He added to himself.
59:51: He took on human nature, never changed his nature of being
59:56: God. His divine nature never changed. It says in Philippians two, though he was considered equal, right?
01:00:03: With God, eternally in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped.
01:00:10: Therefore he emptied himself. So it's subtraction by addition. Exactly. It's the humility of Christ to put on a human nature, but it never changed his nature of God.
01:00:22: Okay. So he's always been the same yesterday, today, and forever. We call that the hypostatic union as something that can help us describe what happened when the word took on flesh.
01:00:32: Okay. And again, the word hypostatic union might not be in the Bible, but it's explained throughout the
01:00:37: Bible. So it's based upon God's word, just like the Trinity. The word may not be found in the
01:00:44: Bible, but it's based upon God's word. But let me, let me give you this. This is even better. Organizing matter is not found in the
01:00:51: Bible. In the beginning, God created. So let's apply the same standard that you use for yourself on us as well.
01:00:59: You can't, you can't have it both ways, but arguably through God's word, we can actually explain the
01:01:05: Trinity, but you can't through God's word, the old and new Testament accurately explain becoming a
01:01:11: God one day. No, you need, uh, the pearl of great price. You need the book of Abraham, right?
01:01:16: You need additional revelation to the doctrine, the covenants in order to breathe that into God's word.
01:01:22: But again, I'm supposed to test the spirits. I'm warned there'll be other
01:01:28: Jesus's in different gospels. So if I test what Joseph says, like I'm supposed to, you as a good
01:01:33: Christian, uh, he comes up wanting act 1711, even the
01:01:39: Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica. Cause when Paul came to preach to them, the gospel that Jesus Christ, the
01:01:45: Messiah has come in the flesh, he died on the cross so that they could live when he was teaching to the Jews in Berea, they cross -checked him with what they do, what they're supposed to do.
01:01:55: They went back to the scriptures to see whether or not what Paul was saying was true. You should do the same thing about what
01:02:01: Joseph says. And like the Bereans, how do we term, determine if newer revelation, uh, goes along with older revelation revelation.
01:02:15: That is if the Holy spirit has indeed, which he has, uh, uh, given us the scriptures.
01:02:22: Then if he's also given us new testaments, then they can't disagree or contradict older ones, which obviously
01:02:30: I know even with the recent general conference talk now, recent prophets can say things that contradict older prophets.
01:02:39: And so what they're saying now is truth. And I guess what they meant back then is no longer truth, but if it's truth, isn't it supposed to be truth?
01:02:48: Absolutely. So, I mean, there's, there's that by the way, but at the end of the day, um, yes, ontologically, theologically, there is only one
01:03:02: Jesus Christ. There's only one Messiah and we believe that the question is, as Jesus even tells them, uh, the
01:03:13: Jews in John chapter eight, he says, if you, if you do not believe that I am that is
01:03:21: Yahweh Lord, you will die in your sins. John, Paul, the apostles, they talk about Jesus in a specific way.
01:03:30: And they say, if you deviate from the teaching, we talked about this last week, you deviate from the teaching of Christ.
01:03:37: You have moved away to a different crisis. It's not to say that there are multiple Christ all, all through the world, but he, but even
01:03:45: Jesus himself warns that there will be some who come in his name, people who, who call themselves
01:03:51: Messiahs, people who, uh, who are even figures like Joseph Smith, I would say, who are false prophets.
01:03:59: And they're going to give us not only, uh, uh, they're not all, they're not only going to say they're from God.
01:04:06: They're going to give us an idea of Jesus Christ that is contrary to the one
01:04:11: Jesus Christ. So I know you guys keep saying there's not multiple
01:04:17: Christ. There's not multiple Christ. We understand that it's a, it's a way of speaking, right?
01:04:23: Just like David Alexander said, just like, uh, other prophets and in your organization have said that people can believe in other
01:04:33: Jesus's. And the question is, do you have the one of the only revelation of God in scripture?
01:04:42: Do you have the one who actually came, uh, to earth, the one who's been God from all eternity?
01:04:48: Uh, do you have the unchanging God, Jesus Christ, or a different one?
01:04:54: Amen. And I want to address something too, before we finish up here. Uh, we also heard it many times in the comments.
01:04:59: We'll look at the fruit, look at the fruit guys. We addressed this in the first video. We did it again in 2nd
01:05:05: Corinthians 11 verse four. It warns of a different Jesus, different gospel, different spirit in the context of the super apostles in 2nd
01:05:10: Corinthians, uh, that have come in to make confusion within the church of Corinth. And they were putting up with these people.
01:05:16: That's what it says. And then it says that these people disguise themselves as workers of righteousness.
01:05:22: Therefore, it looks like they're doing good things. The fruit on the outside looks phenomenal, but it says their ends will correspond to their deeds because they're doing it under a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit.
01:05:34: Therefore, the fruit is the fruit of death. Again, I want you to respond to this.
01:05:39: Proverbs says there's a way that seems right into a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death. I'll have pastor Wade explain in just a second about, uh,
01:05:46: Jesus when he says you shall know them by their fruits. Okay. But that doesn't mean we throw out everything else about the
01:05:51: Bible and the tests of a prophet. It's not just know them by their fruits. It's everything else as well, because Jesus says,
01:05:57: I did not come here to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. He says, if anyone tells you that one jot or tittle has been left out, they'll be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven.
01:06:07: Meaning that Deuteronomy 13, part of the law of God still stands. If it's bringing you to a different God, uh, one that you have not known false prophet,
01:06:14: Deuteronomy 18, one false prophecy, false prophet. So where I'm getting at here is just because you see good things that your church is doing.
01:06:22: Doesn't mean that it's the true church because if I'm going to apply that standard to other churches, the Jehovah's witnesses do humanitarian things.
01:06:30: There's the Islam, uh, Muslims, they do good things as well, right?
01:06:35: In terms of just being human Hindus, they'll do great things as well in humanitarian forms.
01:06:41: Secular humanists do things humanitarian Lee. Does that make them the true church?
01:06:46: I'll tell you this too. Christians have throughout millennia been doing great things. Does that make them the church just because they do great things?
01:06:55: Please be consistent with your standard because though you may call us and say, well, you're using scripture just like the
01:07:02: Pharisees, the Pharisees use so much scripture to try to refute the truth that Jesus was giving. I heard that some of the comments
01:07:07: I'm going to tell you this, what did the Pharisees do? They forsake the law for the sake of their traditions.
01:07:14: Let me tell you this. Your tradition is that modern revelation continues. Your tradition is that the
01:07:21: Bible has been corrupted. Those are your traditions. Well, guess what? The law of God, remember what the
01:07:27: Pharisees did? They forsake the law of God for the sake of their tradition. Well, the law of God says, if you lead them after other gods, gods of which you have not known, don't believe them.
01:07:35: There's any false prophecies. Don't believe them. Do you believe that? Or are you forsaking the law of God for the sake of your traditions?
01:07:41: What you claim us to be doing? I think you might actually be doing yourself. Yeah, and I just want to say, again, just like Joseph Smith rejected and spat on our ancestors at that time in the 1800s who came here to worship the one true
01:07:58: God away from the constraints of Roman Catholicism, who were actually true believers in Christ.
01:08:07: When he said that, he abominated them in the process.
01:08:13: I would also say, look, this is not something where we're trying to measure one another, but just think about it.
01:08:22: Just really think about that statement. Think about how many, many more evangelical
01:08:28: Christians there have been. Even right now at this point in time, how many more evangelical
01:08:34: Christians there are than LDS, how many more evangelical Christians there have been since the time of Christ than Mormons, because Mormonism started in the 1800s.
01:08:44: Just do you do the math in your mind. Think about all the schools, hospitals, missionaries, missionary trips, missions efforts, churches, things like that.
01:08:59: All to the glory of God, no boasting in man, none of ourselves. And so when you say that, it really comes off like you're boasting in man's efforts.
01:09:13: I don't want to do that now. I look at what God has done in history and how he's brought the gospel around the world and how he's established all these wonderful things.
01:09:26: But to say that there is much more fruit with your organization is just demonstrably false.
01:09:33: It's erroneous. What does Jesus mean, though, when he says you should know them by their fruits?
01:09:40: Sure. So, you know, in the context he talks about, no fig tree can bring about briars or thorns.
01:09:54: No grapevine brings this or that. You know, at the basis of it all is a, you will have fruit that corresponds with the root, with the heart of all things.
01:10:13: And so at this context in the gospels, Jesus is addressing people who were determined to be so very righteous.
01:10:25: Pharisees, Sadducees, people who look like on the outside were great with their fruit, but he's actually attacking them and saying, your fruit is rotten.
01:10:36: Your fruit falls off. It rots. It's not, it's actually thorns.
01:10:43: It's thistles. You'll know them by their fruits. They're not lasting. They're not righteous.
01:10:51: What is the fruit of Mormonism? It doesn't matter all the humanitarian things you do if you lead people after another
01:10:59: God, a God which they have not known. It doesn't matter all the things that you do with that money to help the poor in other countries.
01:11:08: It doesn't matter if you're leading people to hell with it. It doesn't matter.
01:11:15: You know, God wants mercy and not sacrifice. What do people, again, all over this state, come to me, come to us who used to be
01:11:27: LDSA. I was shackled in slavery under the bondage of a system where for the foundation of my salvation,
01:11:36: I had to do X, Y, Z to get to the highest level, to get to the level that is truly the salvation that God wants for us, supposedly.
01:11:48: I have to have this, this, this, this. I have to, temple endowments, baptized in the
01:11:54: Mormon church, the priesthood there, to be perfect, live out the gospel ordinances and principles, to do this perfection.
01:12:07: Literally, and I mean this respectfully, the LDS organization is preaching a gospel like that, that the ones, the
01:12:19: Pharisees were trying to shove on people. And he says it's, it's slavery.
01:12:25: He says their yoke is unbearable. Their burdens are unbearable.
01:12:32: And that's the fruit of this organization. Okay. So that's, that's really what it's talking about is what does the inner man have in all this?
01:12:44: What is the inner man, the innermost being, the heart of it all? What is the basis and foundation for your desires to do good works?
01:12:53: You see, because right now I could go out today and I could,
01:12:59: I don't know, not tell a lie or go give to some homeless guy.
01:13:06: But if inside, I am, I don't care about them. If inside,
01:13:12: I want to promote a false gospel. If inside, I want to become a God. I want to become a
01:13:17: God. If inside, I'm doing these things to obtain
01:13:22: Godhood, then I'm working. And what did it say in Romans four? It's not the one who works.
01:13:28: Otherwise it's a wage owed to me, he says. And so that's what it is.
01:13:35: If at the heart of the matter, if at the root of the matter, you have to work, then for you to continue to receive the blessing of God, the fruit of that tree will be works as well.
01:13:46: You start with works, you end with works. And the good thing about the most amazing and glorious and beautiful thing about the true gospel of Christ in the scriptures is that this salvation starts with grace, it ends with grace, and you and I get to participate and live in that and live in that reality and walk in the good works that he's prepared beforehand.
01:14:11: And it's all mercy. It's all grace. I need his mercy every day. I need his grace every day.
01:14:17: Otherwise I'm dead where I stand. And so it can't be a root of works.
01:14:24: Otherwise it's a fruit of works. It's got to be at a root of grace and a fruit of grace that manifest into good deeds.
01:14:33: Man, amen. If you are LDS and you stuck with us all the way until now, good for you.
01:14:39: Good for you. I know that's probably pretty rough and your feathers may be ruffled. We're going to get back to reaction videos to David Alexander.
01:14:47: We're going to do more. We're going to do some more next week. We just want to respond to some of the critics that are actually in our comments. And we're going to urge you again, please, if you're going to argue with us, please respond to the arguments that we make inside our video.
01:15:00: Quote us. Quote us. Tear it apart. Do that. But please just don't simply say pejoratives or ad hominems or whatever.
01:15:10: It doesn't bother us, but it's not helping you. If you have an issue with it, go ahead.
01:15:16: Work with what we say. Yeah, go ahead. You can like this video, thumbs down the video, right? Subscribe to our channel.
01:15:22: If you just even want to put some pejoratives on there, throw them away. But we're not going to really read those or respond to those.
01:15:28: We'll respond to comments that are actually interacting with the things that we say in form of our argumentation.
01:15:34: So next time we are again going to react to another David Alexander video. We hope to see you again.