Should Christians "Redeem" the Culture?

What's up guys welcome back to another episode of Apologia TV. That's the bear. What up? That's the girl. Hi. They call me the ninja don't they they they they in this room. They do so this is Apologia radio guys.

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Of course the regular podcast goes up as usual on top of Apologia Academy. Which is coming soon on the pastor's couch and more get that at Apologia radio .com guys very excited about this episode. We're gonna deal with some important issues that we face as a church in regard to Actually engaging the culture right.

Jesus says be salt. Be light you're the city on the hill. Don't hide. Hide it under a bushel. No I'm gonna let it shine so we're gonna deal with cultural issues and right now We're facing as a church so much in our culture.

We're facing the issue of gay Mirage.

Right now in the Supreme Court deciding on gay Mirage. Mm-hmm right. It sounds like some kind of casino in Palm Springs. Yes.

Calling squares circles and circles squares. That's what's being debated right now in the Supreme Court. And we're dealing with abortion the murder of millions upon millions upon millions of babies in our world.

We're dealing with the redefinition of gender. We've abandoned God in our culture and therefore we have no more meaningful definitions of anything of anything. We're teaching our children that they are nothing more than protoplasm bobbing along and a certain a purposeless cosmos.

All we have above us is sky and now we reap The consequences the rewards of that belief system, so we wanted to get today one of The people that has influenced me you us right the most. We call them uncle Gary.

Yes. We love them, and it's Gary DeMar with the American vision. What's up uncle Gary?

Great to be with you guys again, and I'm glad you're at the forefront of dealing with a bunch of issues that are Hurting the church and unfortunately, we've got some real church leaders out there who are damaging the call of Christians to the gospel and to the culture.

Gary you're you've.

Been really yourself at the forefront of this discussion for many many years now. You you've been associated with some of the heavy hitters that deal with these issues like dr. Greg Bonson. You're a part of what he was doing in his ministry.

God's been using you in Respect to the issues of law the issues of the kingdom of God the victory of the Messiah in history. So just for it give us 15 seconds on what you do. It's American vision and and just generally.

Well with American vision simply taking the Bible and applying the Bible to every area of life showing how it Does in fact apply to every area of life from self-government to civil government and everything in between.

The Sacred-Secular Divide and Pessimistic Eschatology

Okay, so Gary. We are facing today in our culture in the West in a nation that was founded essentially by Christians and at least influenced by the biblical worldview. We are facing a redefinition of virtually everything.

When it comes to law when it comes to gender when it comes to marriage when it comes to the value of human life. All of that when when you think about this that we're facing now in front of us as a church.

What do you think are some of the main contributing factors that have gotten us as a church to where we're at today.

Well, I'm giving the two main factors and I always bring these up. The first one is a sacred secular Dichotomy the church functions over here in the sacred realm and it has its own little sacred laws and it's sacred areas in which it's to function and then everything else.

Functions and it's in a secular sphere a secular circle and it has its own set of standards and laws that are derived from itself and Christians are taught never the twain shall meet. Christians are supposed to stay in their circle over here in the sacred realm and Non-christian secularists are supposed to take you know set themselves over here and this other circle and they're to derive Their their view on the basis of natural law.

The problem with that is the the secular culture is Darwinian. It's always evolving. Yeah, there's no there's no fixed standard anymore and the church over here with its with its light of the world. Light under our path God's own word.

We keep it. We keep it stranded in this this other circle and Never let that light shine on the other on the other realm that that's that's one problem. The other problem is is that we have a pessimistic eschatology?

Yes, we're taught that where we live at the last last days. Jesus is coming soon all the signs That that the Bible talks about are out there today. We should expect these types of things to happen at the end of history.

They're happening today and as a result, there's nothing we can do. We're we're in a period of prophetic inevitabilities.

It's it's an amazing thing Gary. All of this ultimately falls down to a foundation of authority, right? Jesus says in Matthew chapter 28 in the Great Commission famous passage known by Virtually every Christian when he ascends Jesus says all authority in heaven and on earth.

The end on earth part is the part we forget today and on earth has been given to me go. Therefore and make disciples of all nations. We know what it says baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Teaching them to obey observe all that I have commanded you. So Jesus in the Great Commission tells us that he has all authority in heaven and on earth and when he tells us to pray He tells us teaches us to pray in in a very interesting way.

He says that God Father may your name be holied hallowed throughout the earth. May your kingdom come and your will be done where on earth as it is in heaven in the book of Revelation. John says in Revelation chapter 5 They sang a new song saying worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals for you were slain and by your Blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation and you have made them a kingdom and Priest to our God and they shall reign on the earth.

It's amazing to see that the Bible really Describes the kingdom of God as not just a present reality. But describes the kingdom of God as something that actually affects the world around us. Gary I'm gonna play you this just briefly a quick question that came in on Albert Moller's ask anything weekend.

This is 6 20 15. Here's the question and I have no doubt in my mind. The question comes because of our radio program.

Here's the question. Hi, dr. Moller. My name is Nathan. I'm from Mesa, Arizona. I have a question about Christians and culture. I've heard a lot recently about Christians redeeming the culture and so I was wondering is that a biblical idea?

Where does that come from? And is that a job that Christians should be doing redeeming the culture. Very important question.

And it's an amazing thing. He's from From Mesa, Arizona and it happens to be in one of our commercials Luke. That's you you say in our commercial of real harmony you say Join with us to redeem the culture.

Oh, yeah, and you say very specifically. This is not simply a political issue. It's a gospel issue. It's it's really amazing. I'm glad this question is coming up, but Gary we're gonna come right back after this quick break and we're gonna address Albert Moller's comments, which Were very very important in terms of Where we're at today as a church, that's joy the girl.

Yes, it is. That's Luke the bear. Rome with one of my favorites Gary DeMar greatly influenced my Thinking and my walk with Christ. American vision. Be right back. Apology or radio .com.

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Welcome back to apology or radio. You can get us at apology or radio .com. Get all the past episodes from our podcast including the all-access and all the rest. It's interesting because when we talk we don't usually use the terminology a lot.

It's not like we're hanging out with each other and you know using that all the time redeem the culture. Mm-hmm. But what we think about is Psalm 110 one.

Where.

The psalmist says that the Messiah is told to sit at my right hand until I make all your enemies a footstool for your feet. The Apostle Paul tells Us that Jesus is reigning and that he must reign until he's put all his enemies Under his feet as a footstool for his feet.

And so we think about a culture of Christ. Yeah, the culture that he conquers with his good news salvation and redemption. Gary before I play Albert Muller's response to that question. What what do you think about that when you first hear it?

About redeeming the culture. Yes. I think that's part of his problem. He never defines it, right? And if he means that somehow we're gonna make the the culture holy by. Well, I don't know what he means by it.

I'm taking the fact that he means to actually change the culture that it reflects something of a of a Christian worldview. And if you if you go On and and listen to the rest of his Statement, it's it's very schizophrenic.

Very.

Yeah.

I'm gonna let you get a chance to respond to some of it. So let's go ahead and play some of right now. This is Albert Muller a man for whom I have great great respect. I love the man. I love what he's done in his ministry, but we need to address this as as brothers and of course girls sister a sister in the Lord and.

Here we go. Nathan. Thanks so much for your question. It's it's interesting that that kind of language is being used now. And I think you could argue that in one sense. It's being used on the evangelical right and the evangelical left.

Maybe with reference to different issues if you go back to the 1970s and 80s with the rise of what was called the new Christian, right? There was very much a redeeming sense of mission in that the culture was going to redeemed by Christians becoming energized in politics and voting in the right candidates who Would lead to the right nominations the right legislation and the right laws would create the right people who would who would then live more?

Righteously and human flourishing would result and that would be because Christians Motivated by the gospel would seek to redeem. That the culture and and and politics is at the center of that. But there were always other issues of concern on the evangelical left.

You've got kind of a mirror image of that. Where you've got many who are saying we need to redeem the culture and that means not so much entering into politics but into arts into entertainment into academia and.

You redeem the culture by presence maybe not by the same kind of confrontational attitude towards The things that we might oppose in the culture, but in in either respect and those two polarities. You both have some sense that what's being done is or attempted is to redeem the culture.

Well, here's the bottom line from the biblical perspective and a part of this is is linguistic. I don't think there's any New Testament justification for our attempt to redeem the culture.

Alright Gary. Respond to that, please.

Well, of course he goes on he says that's a bit Messianic and what I mean by this. The scripture doesn't tell us that the culture is going to be redeemed. Tells us that we that there's going to be a new heaven a new earth.

And it's also tells us that Christians are to be engaged actively engaged in the culture. And there's no doubt about that. Then he goes down here below and he says and that certainly has. Has to mean that we have to be engaged in the culture Of our neighbor and that means we are to be salt and light and that means the culture ought to be different because Christians are In the culture, but we don't really have a biblical warrant for believing.

We're going to be able to redeem any culture. This is like Newt Rockne Telling know that the Notre Dame to go out and lose one for the Gipper. Right you you you do all of this training, right you you prepare for this football game but look guys your efforts are in vain you're going to lose and.

And look, I like Al Mohler, too. I really think if he had time to think about this a little bit more.

He wouldn't have been so schizophrenic. I'm gonna I'm an agreement with you on that. Yeah. Yeah. Well and and so much of this has to do with his eschatological Presuppositions that's what's driving this so I would say this with love for him as a brother in Christ.

What's driving his response to this question is not scripture not a thoroughgoing Exegetical type of looking at the Word of God saying what does it actually say? It's that he has a presuppositional commitment to a particular eschatology.

That that puts him in a place where he's got this collision that you describe or on the one hand We're called to do this as Christians to preach truths of the culture. It should affect the world around us and all those different things.

But on the other hand he has a commitment over here to an eschatology that is ultimately an eschatology of defeat.

Yeah, and let me just I think his dates are wrong too about all of this. Let me take you back Back to 1947. There was a book that was published by Carl F Henry it was a it was a bombshell when it came out it was called the uneasy conscience of modern fundamentalism and It had an introduction by Harold J. Ockengay and Ockengay it was a premillennialist.

Carl Henry was a premillennialist and this is what Ockengay wrote in his introduction a Christian world and life view embracing world questions societal needs. Personal education ought to rise out of the Great Commission as much as evangelism does.

Culture depends on such a view and fundamentalism is Prodigally dissipating that is scattering the Christian culture deposit of centuries. A serious sin he calls it a Sorry answer lies in the abandonment of social fields to the secularist.

This was 1947 and unfortunately Christians didn't heed the message of Carl Henry or Ockengay. Then you go a little closer in history, okay to I Think Henry Morris who is another premillennialist and he's mostly Known for his young earth creationism.

Yes.

But he he dealt with the with the great with the Great Commission as well as what was called the Dominion Mandate and Basically did a redeemed culture. Presentation in in his in his work on on the the biblical origins of science.

So.

This this was part and parcel of what Christians were saying for the very. For a very long time Christians weren't heeding the message and now we're paying the price for it because we've got Christians living in this schizophrenic world.

Yeah, we're supposed to be involved, but don't expect any any success and don't worry about that because Jesus is coming back soon. It's it's a it's a crazy crazy admixture. That's killing the church.

Yeah, and we think today about different realms that are ultimately out of the jurisdiction of The kingdom of God or of Christ. We think in terms of we have the Christian Church over here. This is where Jesus is Lord, but we have other realms that he's not necessarily Lord.

He's not necessarily in full authority there. His word doesn't necessarily count there. We're not to bring his authority and his word into that area and so as a result we are facing today utter collapse around us in the culture and That has so much to do with us as a church.

Now, of course, we're a thoroughgoing hardcore pipe hitting Calvinist all of us here. We recognize the sovereignty of God the providence of God is control over history but we have to recognize the fact that Jesus says you are the salt of the earth.

Salt is a Preservative it stops things from decaying and that's what Jesus says about us as a church. You are the salt of the earth. You are the light and so if we are no longer salty if we are no longer light to darkness to scatter the darkness.

Then you have the resultant effect around us today a culture that is.

Plunging off the cliff. Hey, I'm gonna push a book here. It's not mine and If dr. Moeller hasn't read it yet He needs to and everybody in your listening audience and I guess viewing audience as well. Yes need to read it as well.

It's called the the book that made your world by Vishal man, Gawaldi the I sh a l ma n g a l Wadi. Now he's from he's from India. The subtitle of the book is how the Bible created the soul of Western civilization.

This this is one of the one of the best books. I I have ever read. Man, Gawaldi is a a great writer. He tells all these great stories. You can you don't have to read it Chronologically pick up the chapter on morality.

And read the some of the stories he tells in there. Look we wouldn't be here where we are today if Christians didn't believe they were. They should be involved and then they should also Be successful in redeeming the culture.

Amen with the gospel always with the Word of God is the very foundation. Be right back guys. More of apology or radio. Apology a TV actually I gotta get that right y 'all. Apology a TV get it more get more of it at apology or radio .com guys.

Be right back with Gary tomorrow with the American vision. Welcome back to apology or radio.

So.

Romans chapter 1 the Apostle Paul opens up his systematic explanation of the good news and he says verse 5 through whom We have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations.

Including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. Very interesting. The Apostle Paul actually bookends his systematic explanation of the good news. Romans chapter 1. Romans chapter 16 with the same statement to bring about the obedience of faith or the obedience that comes from faith among all the nations it's interesting because the Apostle Paul always sees the Lord Jesus and his Ministry as part of what God's plan in history was not a plan B Now but not a novelty dropped into history, but what God had planned to do.

So Genesis 49 10 the Apostle Paul knew well as a rabbi trained under Gamaliel. Genesis 49 10 the Apostle Paul set a sorry that Moses writes in Genesis 49 10 that this Shiloh who is coming to him is going to be the obedience of The nations.

We have to mention the most popular verse quoted in the entire Bible Psalm 110 1 the That's this is what the psalmist says that the Lord sent into my Lord said in my right hand. And so make your enemies a footstool for your feet.

That is where we're at today. So when we talk about quote-unquote redeeming the culture here at apology or radio. We're thinking in terms of gospel transformation. We're thinking in terms of the authority of Jesus Christ saving sinners redeeming them changing hearts changing minds making people alive.

So now they have the law of God within them internalized that Changes them and that then goes to change the world around them when Jesus takes His seat on the throne and has all authority He is putting his enemies under his feet as a footstool for his feet and that creates Let's just say it the culture of Christ.

Mm-hmm.

And and if you heard what he said, he basically defines what we're saying as two polarities. He says on the left you have Those that want to redeem like the arts and stuff and he says on the right you have those that want to redeem politics and he's not right on either like we're.

Both it's it's the whole right. It's everything. Yeah, but it starts and then he goes on with we have time to finish it. He goes on to say but it's you know, we have to preach the gospel and we're like, yes.

That's where it starts and then expands from there and then encompasses all of that. Yes, so even like his knowledge and understanding and definition like Gary said he doesn't really define what that means.

So you you can see from how he tries to define it. It's not even accurate.

Gary.

Well again, I this is Al Mohler is living in a culture that is Borrowing from the redemption of culture from centuries of Christianity, right? What and because we haven't been paying it back? We haven't been putting more more cultural money into into the into the account where we're coming down to the Bottom of our savings accounts and if Christians had had continued this from our from those who came over here from from Europe as Christians and established this nation and built institutions like Harvard and Yale and and Princeton and Columbia and all of the colonial all the colonial colleges, which were fundamentally Christian.

Yeah, and we we gave that up because what we wanted over here were our Bible colleges and our seminaries and They the you know, this the the unbelievers could have everything else. We just want this stuff over here.

And again, this is this is what's happening. We're fighting against we're fighting against ourselves because those institutions we gave those institutions away when they were built up by Christians. Capital was invested in those institutions and we gave them up because we didn't think that they were important.

Because you because our citizenship is in heaven and we don't have any citizenship down here. That's the basic argument that we face today. And of course Al Mohler says hey, you know, there's going to be a new heaven and new earth.

Why are we worried about this heaven and earth because there's going to be a new one again. Eschatology now enters into the into the equation with him. He's tipped his hand. He has a dispensate. Well, I don't know if he's dispensational.

He certainly has a very pessimistic pre-millennial view of eschatology that is waiting for some new thing to take place. When Jesus has paid it all on the cross he says it is finished. He gives us the Great Commission and yet now we're going to wait for a new heaven and new earth.

Which I believe he's misinterpreting that passage as well, but we don't have time for that. Yeah, but he's always looking everybody. These Christians are looking for something that's going to take place in the future when Jesus has already done it for us.

He has called us to be faithful and obedient in the things of this world. When our time is up down here, it passes on to another generation.

Yes, and what's interesting here? I would say what needs to be pointed out here is that we do not believe and Christians have not believed in Post-millennialists and in times past have not believed. It's not part of what is the foundation of our?

Our hope that we can change the world through law. Through simple politics through traditional values those sorts of things. We believe in a rugged reform theology. God by his grace Raises the dead and when he does so he changes them.

Fundamentally, they are new creations in Jesus Christ. And and you have to ask the question if God saves people raises the dead to life changes their heart changes everything about them. He he he makes them alive in Christ if that truly takes place and it takes place on a large scale.

What happens to the culture? It was Henry Van Till right Gary that said that Culture is religion externalized sterile. Well, what happens when the religion of the world around you becomes the religion of Christ?

Yeah, I wrote a 700 page book about this called God and government. Yes, very good. That's tiny book ends with self-government under God New redeemed in Christ then it then it spills over into the family in the development of family government then church government and only then civil government and.

If anybody has read anything I've written about this our goal isn't to use politics Like the Liberals do in order to force some compliance on people. We want to decrease the power and authority of civil government and and turn it Bring it in alignment with with with individual self-government under God family government under God church government the culture at large in terms of business and art and science whatever the case might be and Civil-government has a very limited function in society and.

Not not given the the grand scheme of things that we see about us today that even conservatives Republicans and Democrats seem to like. Yes, here's more of molar.

That's a bit messianistic and what I mean by that is the scripture doesn't tell us that the culture is going to be redeemed. It tells us that there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth. And it also tells us that Christians are to be actively engaged in the culture.

That's schizophrenic right there.

That's I could say I think if he hears this and if he reads this. He's got to make some adjustments to it because it is very very schizophrenic. Yes, that's messianic and.

It just just Gary the idea.

That.

The Bible does not tell us about ultimately the victory of Christ over all of this. Is really it's a pretty amazing claim to make because when you look in history You see some of the Giants of the faith.

Were post-millennialist they believed in a victorious view of the future and they believed so based on the text of God's Word. You have people like Jonathan Edwards. Drop the mic. We're done. Conversation is over right.

Jonathan Edwards. William Carey. Charles Hodge. You've got a a Hodge. You've got Lorraine Bettner. Jay Gresham Machen. You've got John Murray the Puritans for goodness sakes modern people like Ligon Duncan, you've got people like Gary and Tamar.

You've got Greg Bonson. George Whitfield the one who God used to start the Great Awakening. Some of the Giants of the faith held a victorious view of the Future and were used mightily by God, but they believed that Christ was victorious within history that he would be victorious with his kingdom and the work of the gospel in history.

They believed so based on the text of God's Word.

Yeah, really. And Murr Ian Murray's book the Puritan. Hope you you read that book and you begin to see that the the the Post-millennial hope was part and parcel of what made America what it is today and others build upon that.

But in the last 100 years or so Probably from 1925 with the scopes trial We began to see Christians creating themselves creating their own self-imposed ghetto and and you know You know just waiting for the end to come but now people are on the outside beating down the ghetto doors.

And want to drag us out into the streets and they're wondering what's going on and the only thing that Al Mohler and others can say is well, there's there's going to be a new heaven a new earth and Just you know, wait, Jesus is going to come back soon.

He's going to rapture us out of here.

Yes. All right guys stay with us there. Here's what's gonna happen right now guys. We are gonna do the after show. It's an hour more of this television program where we're gonna now get into the meteor issues.

We're gonna deal with the text of God's Word. We're really gonna expand more upon Albert Moller's comments by addressing them directly. You can get that after show at apology or radio .com. That's where I put all the after show content.

You can get more of this discussion become all-access guys join with us participate with us in this ministry. Apology or radio .com is where you go to get signed up for the all-access. It's a very easy seven dollar and ninety five cent donation for our ministry every month or if you feel led to do so.

But that's where you get more of this content more with my one of my heroes of the faith Gary DeMar greatly influenced my thinking. This is a the ninja apology or radio.