May 15, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Exegesis, Hermeneutics, and the Importance of Background Study

I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea and for all Those who have not personally seen my face that their hearts may be encouraged having been knit together in love and attaining To all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding Resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery.

That is Christ himself in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge? I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument for even though I am absent in body Nevertheless, I am with you in spirit Rejoicing to see your good discipline in the stability of your faith in Christ.

Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in him having been firmly rooted and now being built up in him and Established in your faith just as you were instructed and overflowing with gratitude.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception According to the tradition of men according to the elementary principles the world rather than according to Christ. For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form and in him you have been made complete.

And he is the head over all rule and authority and in him you were also Circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised up with him through faith in the working of God who raised him From the dead when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh He made you alive together with him having forgiven us all our transgressions.

Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us Which was hostile to us and he has taken it out of the way having nailed it to the cross. When he had disarmed the rulers and authorities he made a public display of them having triumphed over them through him.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a Festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come. But the substance belongs to Christ let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement in the worship of angels.

Taking his stand on visions He has seen inflated without cause by his fleshly mind and not holding fast the head from whom the entire body being Supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments grows with a growth Which is from God if you have died with Christ the elementary principles the world.

Why is if you were living in the world do you submit yourself to decrees such as do not handle do not taste do not touch. Which all refer to things destined to perish with use in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men.

These are matters which have to be sure the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and Self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. So wrote the Apostle Paul to the church at Colossae that is the second chapter of the book of Colossians.

And I want to take some time today to look at this chapter and specifically to encourage our listeners today in regards To learning to be a good exegete. Learning how to do hermeneutics. It is something I think that is vitally important most Christians.

Simply do not take the time to Equip themselves to be proper students of the Word of God and as a result for many people in Evangelical churches today taking the time to even Purchase a commentary to take the time to look up a commentary is the extent of the depth of the study to which people will go and Obviously Commentaries are wonderfully useful things we can learn much from them.

But they are just simply the understandings and interpretations of an individual and that individual may not have the same Mindset that you have it very often for example Key apologetic passages will be passed over in almost silence in Many scholarly reference works and in commentaries because it is not the commentators purpose to answer questions regarding the Apologetic content or usage of certain passages many people will call and complain.

You know I got this book, and I went out and spent all this money on this commentary and here You know I'm trying to deal with a Jehovah's Witness. And and I went to this passage, and they didn't even mention the key issue well That's because it's not the key issue for them.

They are not looking at it from that perspective. They they simply don't comment on and so at other times there are just some very difficult passages that are sort of passed passed over without a whole lot of Examination and when we're limited to merely reading someone else's opinion when we're limited to merely looking at a commentary.

Then we are limited very much in dealing with the text of scripture, and so I want to encourage our listeners today to Become equipped to engage in the task of exegesis learn the canons and rules of sound hermeneutics.

Understand that truly to learn how to interpret the Bible correctly is to allow God to speak in his own language. That is when we do not Self-consciously submit ourselves to the proper means of hermeneutics.

Then the normal reason we do so other than ignorance is because the application of sound principles of hermeneutics Would result in the destruction of our own traditions and our own positions. Which are actually not biblical.

In other words when you do not practice sound hermeneutics. You are not allowing the text to speak for itself you are determining that God must speak in the way that you want him to speak and. So it is not just simply some fluffy thing.

It's not some just scholarly thing that well You know you all can go over there, and and if you want to study all these complex rules and things like that I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna let the spirit lead, and that's what we see happening.

Isn't it on certain you know here in Phoenix channels between 20 and 22? Certain broadcasting networks that use Divinely revealed doctrines in their name that don't really believe anymore. What you see all the time on these on these networks are individuals who are not applying Consistent hermeneutics, so that they're applying each that they're approaching each passage to hear it in its own context instead.

They have their own overriding traditions. And they have their own you know perspectives that they are attempting to defend and they then force these upon the text of Scripture itself and As a result God's Word is muted for them instead what you get is man's tradition.

Masquerading as if it is the Word of God now going back to Colossians chapter 2 this passage and all of Colossians illustrates the importance of learning to understand the backgrounds of Books of Scripture.

And I know when I was in seminary that if I looked around at those who were taking classes with me It was Old Testament background New Testament background passages like or classes like that. Let's face it.

They were the ones that people you know Sort of did a lot of stretching in and and you can sort of see the heads nodding and it wasn't the most exciting stuff and I Understand that I've had students for example through Columbia evangelical seminary.

You know complained about the background classes a man you have a lot of reading now. I got to do and you know so on and so forth and They're you know very much Complaining about how much study is involved and and all the rest of stuff.

But I've tried to explain to them the fact that it is that kind of background. It is that kind of information That is so fundamental and so important in being able to apply sound hermeneutic principles to the study of Scripture.

This comes out a lot Apologetically some of you in channel right now. It's been a while since something like this has happened but sometimes we will have Jehovah's Witnesses who will come into channel and.

And Over the years this has happened. You know with a fair amount of regularity not as much recently especially since certain one of them's certain one of the Individuals decide to start basically being dishonest about who they were denying who they were and then later saying well Yeah, that actually is me and so they've been banned and and we don't have long discussions with those types folks anymore.

But when they were taking place a little bit more regularly. You all may recall that these individuals who Really, they're they've they've examined probably Every one of the common passages that are presented on the subject of the deity of Christ.

They can give an answer a response with tremendous speed to a standard presentation on the doctrine of the Trinity the person of the Holy Spirit and yet Many of you should be able to recollect a couple of times and I'm specifically Remembering one specific instance where an individual very sharp individual well-read individual person who could could present very quick responses to particular passages.

When we got into the subject of the book of Colossians and of course this book There are a number of key passages in regards to deity of Christ positively and negatively. That is Colossians chapter 1 verses 15 through 18.

Positively the testimony to the Christ being the creator of all things. Negatively it is used by Jehovah's Witnesses in regards the term firstborn the firstborn of all creation. They think that means first created well That's not what it means.

But that's the argumentation there Colossians chapter 2 verse 9 for in him all the fullness Deity dwells in bodily form as we saw when we read the passage at the beginning of the program today and so there are key passages concerning the supremacy of Christ and the nature of his rulership and and All all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge being hidden in him all those things very very important.

And so when we went into that text I asked this person to explain How they came to conclusion that for example in Colossians chapter 1? Jesus is being described as a creature as a part of the creation through whom other things were made and As this person explained that I then said now let me ask you a question how would your interpretation have impacted the Apostle Paul's argument against his opponents and It was sort of like you could you could hear the the crickets chirping in fact I have a I have a sound on our on our wave channel that's Sort of has that sort of sound to it.

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you know that that's what's going on in channel. During the whole time that after I've asked this question. It's sort of like well What do you mean and I said well? You do know the background of the book of Colossians.

You know why he's writing it, right and he's like Well I said well Come on. You you you're familiar with proto Gnosticism, right? No. Well wait a minute wait a minute you you're giving me this this you're discussing Greek grammar.

And you're discussing syntax, and you're discussing all these things and all these scholarly sources on the meaning of Protodoc Osset Colossians 115 all the rest of stuff. But you actually haven't ever looked at Colossians as a Entire literary unit the whole even asked yourself the question why did Paul write this how can you then accurately handle?

His argumentation and Understand his apologetics understand his argumentation if you don't even know who he's writing to or why he wrote to them. Well I died and it ended the Conversation and I I point this out because sometimes these folks just you can't get them to shut up basically I mean, they're just going on on on and very many times I have seen them utterly derailed by simply addressing the the Foundations of how we would properly Analyze, what is Paul saying?

I mean if Paul's writing against a particular perspective if Paul is addressing a particular need in the church at Colossi and we interpret him in such a way as To in essence destroy his own argument and in fact make himself contradictory.

Are we not obviously missing the entirety of his point is not our interpretation wrong of course. That's interesting there are some who say you can't even raise the issue of of the interpretation of a passage being right or wrong.

There are many today who are so they are dedicated to an epistemology. That basically says we can't know what the scripture says. But in reality we can and especially when we we come to understand what Paul's responding to now.

We have some some indications some very clear indications in Paul's own language. And if you're looking for a you know, I know this isn't the newest commentary. But in reality, it's a it's an excellent commentary.

It's it's one of the older commentaries, but it's still very very much Useful in the study of Colossians and in fact Ephesians and I believe Philippians is Bishop Lightfoot's Commentary on these things and he goes into the what we might call today proto-gnosticism.

The the developing religious perspective that we eventually be full-blown. Quote-unquote Christian Gnosticism that would be one of the main enemies of the church for all of its early centuries. But we can get a an idea of what it was like by some of the things that are said in Paul's epistle to the Colossians and we can also learn some other things along the way.

For example, there were certain terms That the Gnostics would use that Paul does not in any way shy away from using himself. The Gnostics talked about the the play Roma which we translate the fullness they talked about eons.

These are both terms that appear rather regularly in the text of the book of Colossians itself now, of course, they're given the proper meaning they're given a Christian meaning but Paul did not mind utilizing the very language of his opponents and Filling those terms with the proper meaning as a means of apologetics or defense against that teaching.

We're also able to clearly discern that this teaching had something to do it it in some way. Endangered the Christian truth regarding the person of Christ. Because we see Paul addressing the relationship of Christ to all of creation.

We see Paul addressing his headship his creatorship and especially an emphasis upon the physical creation. Remember back in Colossians chapter 1 for by him were all things made. Whether in heaven earth visible invisible principalities powers dimensions authorities all things created by him and for him.

He is before all things and in him all things hold together. There's this this this desire on his part to strongly emphasize the over arching Creatorship of Christ, but then you may have noticed here in Colossians chapter 2.

There's a warning. He's talking about his desire for the Church of Colossian and remember Paul hadn't been there Colossian Laodicea, in fact for those of you that are wondering in Colossians chapter 4 verse 16 talks about the the epistle coming from Laodicea.

Read that epistle. It's probably Ephesians. Ephesians was probably a circular letter. It was sent up the Lycus River Valley Ephesus being the main City there in the Lycus River Valley, and it was probably a circular letter.

It makes sense because Paul had been in Ephesus for many years and yet there is nothing in all of Ephesians of a personal nature. He doesn't greet anyone by name or anything like that. And and you'd expect a long long list if this was a letter specifically just the church at Ephesus.

But instead you have nothing like that at all and some very early manuscripts do not contain the word Ephesus. At the beginning of the epistle so that was probably a circular letter meant to go off at Lycus River Valley.

And that's why there's some real parallels you you'll notice you can almost do like a Synoptic gospel study of Colossians and Ephesians because there are some very close parallel passages between them but we see in in Paul's letter to the Colossians this prayer that he that he basically has for them beginning in chapter 2 and For all those who have not personally seen my face these are churches these are second-generation churches these are churches begun because of churches that Paul himself began and So he prays that their hearts may be encouraged and knit together in love and have a true knowledge of God's mystery.

That is Christ himself and then he says verse 4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument and So he is warning them. He's warning the believers. There is a danger there of be those who will come and they will have persuasive arguments and He says I know I'm not there.

But I I rejoice to see your good discipline the stability of your faith in Christ. And and since as you've received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in him and then notice the words He uses haven't been firmly rooted now being built up in him established in your faith.

He's talking about the fact that they are stable. They're not the type of shallow type Religious people that so quickly are moved from one perspective to another and then he repeats his warning again.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception According to the tradition of men according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ. That's in a very very important passage Paul is very concerned that the the church be vigilant that it be alert and Recognize that there are going to be those who are going to desire to take her captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men according to the elementary principles of the world rather than According to Christ these arguments that are theirs.

They're persuasive words Will be persuasive they will be very philosophically oriented they will sound very very good and Yet They are not in accordance with Christ. He is the standard for in him verse 9 all the fullness of deity dwells in Bodily form.

Now that term for deity is a very strong term. They are tata's it means that which makes God God as BB Warfield put it the very essence of God the very nature of God. For in him all the fullness II fullness of deity dwells somatic OS in bodily form.

Now note that because when we look at the background a little bit further we're gonna see that's very important. Why would Paul emphasize that in Christ is dwelling present tense? This is after the resurrection.

This is decades after the resurrection for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form. Let me just pause for a moment amazes me. How many Christians I encounter? Who don't think that Jesus Christ?

Has a physical body. It amazes me how many evangelicals think that somehow when Jesus was? When he ascended into heaven that What did he did he somehow He's you know dissolve his body or something. It just amazes me and yet here decades after the resurrection Paul speaks of the fullness of deity dwelling in him in bodily form.

He is the God man. He has never ceased to be the eternal Son. In him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form and in him you have been made complete and he is the head over all rule and authority to keep that in mind because as you go down and you'll notice and you know, this is this is I think I should mention this just in passing and notice that the After the assertion and in fact is part of let me see here.

Yeah. This wouldn't be in the English Standard Version, which is the NASB without semicolons. But if you follow the semicolons, you'll notice it's one sentence in In the New American Standard for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form and in him you have been made complete.

And he is the head over all rule and authority and in him you are also Circumcised the circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised up with him through faith in the working of God.

Who raised him from the dead? Now I Mention that simply in passing because the fact that Paul can speak of Christ as The one in whom all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form verse 9 and then in verse 12 Recognize that the father raises the son from the dead this kind of language where in one sentence Paul will go from speaking of the the deity of Christ to then Distinguishing between the father and the son or referring to the human nature of Christ in the resurrection.

It's all through the epistles. That's why I say the New Testament is a Trinitarian book those who wrote these epistles were experiential Trinitarians. They were experiential Trinitarians. They had experienced the Trinity.

Peter had heard God the father Speaking from heaven on the Mount of Transfiguration. He walked with the son. He was now entwelt by the Holy Spirit. He was an experiential Trinitarian and we see this in the language and then After all of this tremendous discussion of the of the the gospel are being dead and being made alive together with him Forgiving our transgressions and all these other things.

Then he says therefore No one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink. Or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come. But the substance belongs to Christ that no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in Self-abasement and then notice this phrase and the worship of angels.

Taking his stand on visions. He has seen inflated out caused by his fleshly mind. So we're given an idea here of what kind of false teaching is in the in the Apostles mind and what he is concerned about in regards to the Church at Colossae and Historically we discover exactly what this is.

In fact, we discover that that Paul's apologetic Methodology is very very strong that he did understand. Well, the movements that threatened the churches about which he was so concerned. What do I refer to?

Well, I've mentioned it before proto Gnosticism a form of Gnosticism that probably would not at this time. Certainly not before Valentinian Gnosticism or or Marchione and in these individuals who flourish in the middle of the second century.

But at this time about a hundred years ninety years earlier this form of it's a Syncretistic religion it is it's it's like As it would as it would was moving east as it would counter a a new local Deity or a local God it would make room for it.

It would it would readjust itself to make room for this this deity obviously not in the exact same Situation and that exact same position that it once had but now it would make room for this deity and and sort of absorb it Into its own pantheon and evidently this is the danger that Paul was concerned about.

That this movement was coming into the Lycus River Valley and that people would present philosophically oriented self-deceived traditional type Argumentation that would in essence promote this concept.

And and what were the Gnostics all about? Well, they were dualists and as dualists they did not believe in the. They believed positively in the idea that spirit is good and matter is evil and Since that which is spiritual is good and that which is made of material is evil.

Then they answered the question concerning the creation by Positing a a group of beings that descended down from the one true spiritual God Down to a creature that while still related to God in the sense of having divine power and hence being able to create was Sufficiently removed from God so that it could become evil this demi-urge this this evil godlike Character then created the physical universe in which are trapped the good spiritual Aspects the spirits of men.

This is why when Paul on Mars Hill got the point of talking about the resurrection that which died coming to life again the people began to mock because they likewise were dualists they believe in this concept that that resurrection which would mean the the rising of the physical body would be Reimprisonment because they saw this life as Imprisonment and hence death Results in the freedom of the spirit.

This is still very much a part of many Eastern religions even to this day and so these protonastics would worship these intermediate beings which they they called eons and all of them together made up the play Roma and We see Paul talking about the worship of angels Here in Colossians chapter 2 and they were very much focused upon Doing things that that were physically oriented in the sense of Religious activities that would result in allegedly they're becoming more spiritual and being more freed from the Control the physical body and so many of their rules and regulations had to do with not eating not marrying not doing this not doing that again the very same type of Discussion that we have in Colossians chapter 2 and so when it came to the person of Christ These Gnostics would have a number of different different problems in regards to his person.

Specifically they would deny that he was truly God. Of course. He wasn't that all Powerful being he was one of the eons. He was a member of they play Roma and he might be worshipped. But so might other members of the play Roma and of course, they'd have a problem with the idea that Jesus could have taken Physical form.

Why. Well because they're dualists and if he takes physical form then he had to be evil. But he wasn't evil. He was good. And therefore he did not have a physical body. He only seemed to have a physical body.

Hence. They were called the settics from the Greek term the kind it seems and So these are all issues that that Paul takes on Head on in this passage He says that Christ created all things. He says that in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form.

These are words that would be like taking your fingernails and bringing them down the proverbial Chalkboard to a Gnostic they would be things that they could not confess. And I think it's important to realize he utilized language that tore the mask off of the false teachers.

He didn't change his teaching about Christ by introducing these terms the truth about who Jesus Christ was Was just as true before The Holy Spirit had Paul take up his pen and write this letter as it was afterwards.

It's just the clarity of that truth Was greatly magnified through the writing of this letter and the use of the terminology that it contained. But what I was pointing out to the Jehovah's Witness in channel was look Your view of Christ as Michael the Archangel as an intermediary between God and the creation.

In essence is the same as the proto Gnostics on many levels and Hence to interpret Colossians chapter 1 and make Jesus a part of the creation is to make Paul's argumentation utterly worthless in the context in which it was originally offered and So there is a brief actually almost 31 minute example of why it is so important For us to understand the backgrounds these books to engage in in that kind of study that will give us the foundation Upon which to do meaningful hermeneutic studies from that point forward.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take our break. We have one phone line already filled. We'll take your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back.

Justification by Faith and the Core of the Gospel

It's all works righteousness, you know to grace.

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute. James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout. An outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White. Get your copy today at a omen org. The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us. James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters.

It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike.

Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org. What is dr Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book. Chosen, but free a new cult.

Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant.

In his book the potter's freedom. James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded.

Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate. James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

It's a journey.

Baptismal Regeneration and the New Birth

And welcome back to dividing line, my name is James white it's it's it was beautiful day today actually today in Phoenix. Not quite as warm as it's going to get I understand it's going to heat up real fast over the next couple of days but today Today was a real nice day.

I admit one of the last ones that we're gonna have in a while. I do believe. But anyway, by the way, there is a lunar eclipse coming up here in about. What in about an hour hour and a half from now something like that.

Yeah, I think it's supposed to be a full lunar eclipse come leave it. Yeah, so cool. We'll be all done by then. We can all go outside and get a crick in our neck by looking up and watching the lunar eclipse.

Let's go ahead and start taking The millions the billions of phone calls that come streaming into our our complex automated phone system here and Let's start with Logan. Hello Logan. Alright. Well the term baptism doesn't appear there it's a tradition of men to insert it if you again actually apply the same type of Argumentation that I was just presenting Colossians chapter 2 you might Ask what is John?

Jesus drawing from here and when you ask that question you discover that in Ezekiel chapter 36 there is this discussion of the new birth the new covenant that God is going to make with his people that discusses the fact that God is going to Cleanse them with clean water.

He is going to put his spirit within them. He's going to give them a new heart take out of heart of stone. Give them a heart of flesh. You have there in the Old Testament a beautiful description of what the new birth is all about and It doesn't have anything to do with a human action called baptism instead we The normative ideas presented to us in Jesus own words when he says go make disciples of all nations.

And then we are to baptize them and to teach them all things whatsoever. The Lord has commanded to us and so You don't the baptism there is is placed after the making of disciples. It is something that a disciple will do as an act of obedience to God in the same way.

The disciple will partake of the Lord's Supper. These are the two Ordinances of the church and we are definitely to to do these things. But it is not the means by which regeneration takes place. And if that were the case, I've never been able to understand Paul's words in 1st Corinthians chapter 1 When he specifically asserts that he did not come to baptize but to preach the gospel.

Well, if if baptism is the means of regeneration, then what in the world was he talking about? That would be the very the very means of applying the gospel. It would be part and parcel the gospel. But the Apostle makes a clear distinction between the proclamation of the gospel and the act of baptism just as Jesus does In saying that we are to make disciples and we are to baptize them and teach them all things whatsoever.

The Lord has commanded to us so the idea of baptismal regeneration not only flies in the face the normal usage of the of the New Testament regarding what baptism is but also seemingly does not understand at all the nature of fallen man.

And the means of of the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration. Which is a sovereign act. It is not something the Holy Spirit does because we enable him. Or that we somehow do something that results in his then regenerating us.

Instead until we are regenerated we are spiritually dead. We cannot do anything that is pleasing before God. Let alone desire to do something that would be pleasing before God such as being baptized. We are dead until we are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit of God that is you know, that's that's like saying well if if if Lazarus had just done something then the result would be that he would be regenerated.

Well, if you're dead, you don't do things to regenerate yourself. That's your problem. You're dead so.

Briefly quoting on David Bernard, you know, as you probably already know, you know Oneness and that guy's the only guy that would quote Okay, he says in the essentials doctrine the essential doctrines of the Bible and when someone believes on g238 He'll he experiences the birth of water and of spirit and he is born again and actually becoming a new creation.