May 20, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Why Christians Should Be Passionate About Truth and Apologetic Debate

And good morning to you. My name is James White. This is the dividing line if you're listening live or by archive, whatever it might be. We welcome you to the program today you know, we've got a debate coming up a week from this Thursday in Long Island and I've only addressed briefly a few times some of the thinking that goes into these debates.

I am well aware of the fact that I am in the minority to To not only engage in these debates. This will be I think number 47 849 yeah 47 and That's obviously a lot of them. I obviously believe that there is a a Need to do these things but I I think that it's it's quite proper to recognize that there are many people who have a Problem with the idea of apologetic debate and engaging these topics in this way.

There are people who have a problem just with the entire idea of Engaging in this type of dialogue and debate. There are other people who have a problem not so much with doing it. But where you do it with whom?

You and would engage in these types of encounters so on and so forth and I think there's some some some Validity to at least being ready to give a defense as to why you do this. Because I recognize that there are certain concerns.

There are certain concerns for example and even interacting directly with individuals who are apostates. Individuals who once confessed the faith and now deny the faith the Bible addresses Those individuals and I think there's certain parameters at least in my life Anyways certain parameters that exist as to exactly what I am comfortable doing and not doing With such an individual who once confessed the faith that that is a special class of people.

The Bible is very concerned the new the Apostles are very concerned About those who would name the name of Christ and yet engage in certain kinds of teachings and behaviors. There's no question about that.

But some of the people you debate are not apostates. They're not people who once made a profession of faith. They have been lifelong deceived and There might be a different way in which you would interact With that kind of an individual than you would with someone who once Sat in your own fellowship and now professes a false gospel obviously, I think That kind of an issue comes up as well.

And so I want to talk about that a little bit today and and give you some of my my thinking and reasoning on it one of the things I want to share and and We'll go for at least 20 minutes or so before we open lines.

But if you have some thoughts maybe you have some objections to what we do and why we do it eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one, but I don't think I'll be taking any any calls until about 20 minutes after or so one thing that's most definitely I want to address is I really believe that There is a need for passion in regards to truth.

Especially amongst those of us who call ourselves Reformed now, I I know there are a number of you who listen this program who do not believe that I am even reformed.

Okay.

Translate that into whatever else you'd like to translate it into hopefully what I'll say will have some meaning for you anyways, but Going past those of you who have a problem along those lines Those of us who who emphasize the sovereignty of God?

Those of us who would speak to people concerning the the life-changing Heart-changing soul-changing experience that Job had when when he had his interview with God that Isaiah had in Isaiah 6 when he saw God upon his throne.

I Think that any person has when they they come to understand the truth contained in such passages of Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 and John 6 where the the very veil of Eternity is is for a moment parted and we are able to to see God in his true nature and his eternal nature and how We are mere creatures.

We are we are the clay in the potter's hand. You you cannot help but be changed by that and I think it results in a necessary passion for God's truth now sometimes frequently because of our own sin because of our own selfishness because of our own shortcomings.

We translate that passion into an unnecessarily Gruff and sometimes arrogant Attitude there's no question about that, but I don't think there's any room whatsoever for the idea of the chosen frozen the idea that we could hold to to the beliefs of the doctrines of grace that we could actually believe that that We have received God's not only unmerited favor But demerited favor and that this love was set upon us before the very foundations of the earth itself and not because of anything within us, but solely because of the will of God that we could believe that and be Impassionate about it Simply makes no sense.

It is a walking contradiction to be reformed and not passionate about God's truth and I mean all of God's truth and That would help explain why many of us seem so Strange and so out of place.

In.

In in the in the overall scheme of things. Because we We are very Countercultural in the sense that we believe that truth. I was getting ready to kick somebody there. That's why I slow down for a second.

We believe that that truth is not merely some external thing. That you either believe in or don't. There is a there is a passion for God's truth because that truth has impacted me. It has changed me and If it were not for that truth, I would not be changed I would still be walking in the darkness of my mind the darkness of men's traditions.

And so we become passionate for all elements of truth and I'll admit We reform folks need to practice and to be very concerned about making sure that the truths that we're passionate about are the definitional truths and not necessarily the secondary truths and.

And what I mean by that is we need to we need to with our passion for truth have maturity zeal and maturity. Wisdom and and and love for the truth. These all need to go together. We see what happens when you're on the extreme of one side or the other we people see people who are tremendously zealous and passionate but don't have any knowledge and Hence are easily derailed easily Dragged off into false teachings and things like that on the other side you have those who have all the knowledge, but no passion and that's as I said a Contradiction in terms it simply should not exist.

We need to be in the middle. We need to have some maturity. And so we need to recognize what's truly foundational and then what is an area where where men of goodwill and men of Submission to the authority of the scriptures and the Word of God have differed with one another.

I would think for example very clearly of Eschatology as an example. There are people who get really really really really really really excited About that particular subject in a particular viewpoint of it to the point of excluding everybody else From the kingdom of God if you're not, you know right down the line on their particular eschatological perspective and and You know, I don't think that necessarily really accomplishes a whole lot and really gets us anywhere.

So we need to be careful. We need to we need to of course temper especially in talking with other people our natural tendency to To become overly exuberant, but you know, I was sharing this with the Bible study class just recently.

There are there are two kinds of of power and and and and zeal there's the there's the kind that you you have in a when when gunpowder explodes when that explodes there is a Instant expansion of gases and there's all this power and it's it's focused and there's this Explosion and it accomplishes a lot normally destructively, but it accomplishes a lot and then you have that kind of long-term Zeal and You know our society and many people in the church seem to think that the first kind is what you need to be looking for.

But one thing is certain Jesus parable the soils demonstrates that there's always going to be that kind of zeal. They're gonna be people who just get all excited and they're all just really pumped up and wow, this is great.

That's awesome and everything else. But they don't last long they don't have a long-term commitment and Eventually, they're gone. It is that long-term zeal that passion that is a burning passion but it is a a passion marked by wisdom and direction and maturity that's kind of passion that we need to have for God's truth and it has to be Marked by a recognition of what's central.

That's why I'm passionate for example about justification. You're not going to find a whole lot of folks who are really passionate about that subject. But it's central. It's definitional to the faith itself and So and and that's why I'll be really I'll be really honest with you.

One of the things that amazes me is when I is when I encounter and talk with individuals who once fellowshiped within solid churches who were maybe raised within the context of.

Of.

Hearing the truths of God's Word proclaimed the truth of man's deadness and sin. The the truth of God's sovereignty the perfection of the work of Christ on Calvary the truth of what it means to to have nothing to bring in your hand the empty hand of faith and the the the reality that I think any regenerate person has Who has been crushed by the recognition of the the heinousness of one's own sin in the sight of a holy God and the need for a perfect Savior that Divine transaction of 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 where my sins are imputed to Christ.

His righteousness is imputed to me. I Don't understand how a person Could claim to have once Truly believed that in a passionate way in a way where they would have said my entire Eternal destiny is Wrapped up in this reality in this truth that Christ and Christ alone is my righteousness I Seek nothing outside of him.

I don't understand how a person could have truly once said that and lived in light of that and confessed that and Then go off into these systems of works righteousness whether it be systems that are way out there as being polytheistic and all the rest that stuff or or whether it be Roman Catholicism and Purgatory and indulgences and merits and masses and Prayers for the dead and all these other things.

I don't understand how a person could once say Christ and Christ alone is enough and then say Well, there's all this other. There's all these other things I've never understood that I Just it just it just absolutely leaves me Without an end without a way of understanding that because it that would be like taking from me my greatest possession.

People ask me questions they say They say well, you know, aren't you aren't you attracted by the liturgy? Isn't it beautiful? And I understand people who are attracted by liturgy. I fully understand that but you see I go beyond that and I look at what it means and When I see that person going forward Thinking that they are again approaching for the 10th time or the 20th time or the 50th time The very cross of Christ and yet when they walk out they are not perfected.

And.

I go see I see what it means I go beyond the symbol to the meaning and if I Believe that I have been united with Christ if I can say with Paul I have been crucified with Christ. There's no longer I who live it is Christ who lives in me and the life Which I now live in the flesh.

I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. Then how could I ever give that away? How could I ever take that and and say well, I'm gonna I'm gonna grab hold of something else.

I Don't understand that it Absolutely leaves me breathless and It basically says to me. I don't think such a person ever had that passionate love for the truth. Which brings me to a a warning. You see I've said briefly on this program before I fully recognize the fact that engaging in debates Will result in people believing what my opponent has to say.

I Fully recognize that and in fact, I think if you'll reason with me for just a moment.

That.

You'll see exactly what I mean. Let's give a consideration for a moment to a little biblical anthropology. And what I mean by that? What does the Bible teach about the nature of man? When we recognize that there are going to be those who are a part of what we would identify as as Solid biblically based fellowships.

Who are there for the wrong reasons? They've been raised in it. They have never actually Received the grace of God in the sense of being born again. Regenerated they they have a surface level religiosity.

But they do not have a love for the truth. They may know how to behave they may know how to walk the Walk the walk and talk the talk and they know how to put on their Sunday morning face and their Sunday evening face and maybe Even their Wednesday evening face.

They know how to use the language and. Maybe because just the way they were raised, you know, it's just natural not to engage in certain worldly activities and They would say they're Christians. They would say they're believers.

But they don't have a passion for the truth. I fully recognize that engaging in theological debate and Giving a platform to false teachers to present their views may well result in those people embracing those falsehoods.

How could it be any otherwise the unregenerate heart. The unregenerate mind that remains in rebellion against God is going to find such things attractive. Let's face it the religions of men are attractive to the unregenerate.

A Person who is even in a sound church who is not born again. Who does not have a passion for the truth will find falsehood attractive. These religions that that say do do do and you may make it. Fulfill these certain obligations and then you may eventually gain a status with God.

They will find that to be attractive. That is a very effective way of suppressing the conviction of the Holy Spirit and So I am aware of the fact.

That.

There could be those who come to debate to end up joining the other group. There were once a part of my side at least they were externally. I recognize that and There is not anything I could do about in fact.

I shouldn't seek to do anything about it. Remember the the description in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. Just picking it up in verse 10, it's midstream and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish there is this Description in Paul's theology those who are perishing and those who are being saved.

Those who are perishing are described as because they did not Receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. They didn't love the truth. They did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved those who are saved.

Then is it not a proper? Understanding of the passage To understand it to mean therefore that those who are saved have received The love of the truth. We are truth lovers if we are being saved. We are truth lovers we love the truth.

We have a passion for the truth, but those who are exposed to it But do not have that love for that and I would argue a love for the truth Is part and parcel the work of the Holy Spirit of God in our lives?

Because they did not receive the love the truth so as to be saved look at verse 11 for this reason 2nd Thessalonians 2 11 for this reason God will send upon them a Deluding influence so that what they will believe what is false In or that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

There's a warning Do not take for granted The preaching of the truth. I think of those who sit and I and I obviously I can only Speak personally of my own fellowship, but I think of those who sit under the consistent ministration of the Word of God Weekend and week out.

What a tremendous privilege and yet Also a tremendous responsibility there is the danger of apathy of Becoming so accustomed to hearing the truth that we're not passionate about it any longer. If we were ever passionate about it at all, and there's a warning here.

For this reason God will send upon them a diluting influence. God can do that. There's a lot of people in evangelicalism Who don't think God would ever do that? God will chase every person to their grave Weeping and trying to save them.

That's evangelicalism tradition. But the scriptures Speak of a sovereign judge and a judge who brings judgment in this life the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven present tense and There may well come a time and we don't know when it is.

This isn't for us to judge but they may there may well come a time. When a person has heard so much truth. With such clarity and.

Yet.

Has reveled in their wickedness has reveled in their sin reveled in their rebellion and that doesn't have to be the kind of gross open immorality That we would associate Necessarily With the pimps and the drug pushers and the murderers.

Idolatry is a Serious and gross sin in God's sight and you can be as moral in the world sense you can be a straight arrow and yet be an idolater and God brings judgment. God brings judgment. Hi, Josh.

How you doing? Right in the middle of the sermon. There you go Serious stuff and I think about this and I think about The desire that we have as elders to bring the truth of God To the people of God and Yet there is always that flip side.

We're out in Mesa. We're out passing out tracks. We're in Salt Lake City. We're in New York or whatever else it might be Sharing the truth of God with people. I always recall I always remember That when you pass out that tract when you give that testimony God is glorified when his truth is proclaimed and sometimes he glorifies himself through the judgment That is brought Against those who hardened their hearts and Love their sin.

So I recognize I Recognize that when God's truth is proclaimed in a debate situation That unless that truth is joined with the work of the Spirit of God in the heart God may well use That proclamation to bring judgment upon those who refuse To receive the love of the truth and as a result there may be those who embrace Well, you name it what have I debated Roman Catholicism Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses oneness Pentecostal ism Islam Liberalism whatever whatever.

I Recognize that but you see I have said for a long long time That I don't debate as If I somehow have the ability to direct the Holy Spirit of God as to what he's going to do with his truth. I don't debate for those who've already come with their minds made up.

People come to debates and I recognize there's people on my side. Their minds are already made up. They're just there to applaud me, you know a little golf clap and they're not listening to a word That the other guy is saying I know that and there are people on the other side In the exact same position and they're not even hearing me.

I Mean, I'll never forget the convert to Catholicism. Who was that the Tim Staples debate in? 2000 and I had known him when he was a when he was not a Catholic and Of course, he didn't talk to me when he converted.

They never do But I knew that that person was there and.

I.

Learned later from other people who knew him he'd come into the room.

When.

Staples was speaking and As soon as I would get up to speak he would leave he would not listen to what I was saying. But then at the end of the debate had the gall to say wow, man. That was I was incredible at the Tim Tim just wiped him out.

And I just you you listened you hear that and you just go Wow. Diluting influence so that they will believe what is false. They will believe the lie. I mean The even semi unbiased person looks at that and goes.

Whoa, that's pretty weird, isn't it? Yeah. But all they are he just won. I just wiped you out just wiped you and you're just like Okay, Wow diluting influence heard the truth knew the truth didn't love the truth.

And so I know That kind of thing can happen. I'm not there for those folks. I'm I'm not debating for those folks God may use what I what I present in Such a way as to bring judgment upon them. And if God uses it to eventually be one of those seeds that saves somebody over the fine great wonderful.

I Am there first and foremost in honor of my God and his truth if that's one place where we're very different than than many because there are many in in Evangelicalism's they say my first goal should be the person that I'm debating.

It's not not for me my first Desire is that my God will be honored and glorified in the presentation of his truth secondly that his people His people will be encouraged edified and built up in the faith through the presentation of that truth and then thirdly That there are those who are there who desire to hear the truth.

God is working in their lives. He's working through circumstances in their lives. I want them to hear the truth with clarity and With that type of clarity that only a debate can give in regards to certain false teachings those the individuals that I want to reach and those are my reasons for engaging in the debate and if I Present the material in such a way as to meet those criteria and bless those people bless my God and defense of his truth my fellow believers in the edification their faith in the truth and Then minister to those who need to hear the truth I've accomplished my goal.

I've accomplished my desire eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven. Seven five three three three four one is a phone number. Maybe you have some thoughts I'd invite you to participate in the program today.

We'll be right back.

Book Promotion and Ministry Announcements

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Roman Catholicism, Tradition, and the Gospel

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

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They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 6026 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

But you're ready today. Many stars strong and true.

Music, Email, and the Upcoming Debate with Robert S. Genis

And welcome back to the dividing line, my name is James white. That was Steve camp singing there. As most of you probably know we get a lot of questions about. The music and the the opening theme is run to the battle by Steve camp as well.

So it's all Steve camp stuff. And so if you were wondering that's that's where it was. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41. Just got a email from my good friend Sam Shamoon Sam the master of all knowledge on things Islamic and numerous other subjects as well and.

On the main page of CAI Catholic apologetics international. For those of you who have been in a lead mine of late. Or on a very long extended.

Cruise.

Cruise or something. I don't know you've been out of town. You may recall the past two about two weeks ago. We addressed the situation where CAI Was making accusations concerning the Holy Scripture series by David King and Bill Webster.

We had both David King and Bill Webster on the program. We addressed those issues. Mr. St. Janice issued an apology of sorts in essence.

He.

Basically said, you know said mr. X had deceived him which Isn't anything overly surprising. If he had checked his sources He would have heard from us that mr. X was not who he claimed to be. But yeah as it may.

He.

It was around the same period of time we had had a debate in Salt Lake City right before all this exploded and.

We.

Had to address the issue of the mass up there and shortly thereafter. I got an email and this was actually after the Whole thing had developed in regards to mr. X About doing a debate with mr. St. Janice and mr. Hunt now.

Mr. Hunt wasn't involved in any of this and Though I could see how it would be useful To have a debate where Dave Hunt and Robert St. Janice are saying the exact same thing. So it'd be a two against one debate Because on the issues of predestination election they would be and I think that would be useful Especially to mr. Hunt's followers to discover that they are on the same page.

I don't think they'd like that. I did not respond to it because I knew what was what was developing in regards to the mr. X situation and I made the statement. I think two weeks ago. Was it two weeks ago today, or was it three weeks ago?

We did that. I don't recall been a little bit busy. So I don't remember the exact date. Maybe it's maybe it's three weeks ago today. We did that program on a Tuesday morning. I said in my comments, I will have nothing to do with Robertson Janice as far as debates are concerned in the future and.

I.

Am assuming that since he is now posted something on his main page three weeks. Oh, yeah. That he believes that his apology is sufficient to make up for.

The.

Attacks upon rich Pierce and Colin Smith and David King and William Webster, and. Of course, I only showed up in the apology by non the name so on and so forth. The problem is this. Well, here's here's what's now Sam sent me.

It's on the main page. Challenged James white to debate recently. See. I challenged James white to do to a debate on the topic of predestination. Unfortunately, dr. White has not respond to our invitation.

Thus we make this public notice for those in contact with dr. White and who would like to see such debate take place. Please contact us contact us it and then you give the AOL address for contacting folks at CAI I've mentioned in the past.

I've always assumed such debate would take place. The reason I didn't even bother to respond to it was because this was in the middle of the mr. X thing. You know as someone channel has now said What is mr. X challenging in a debate now to which does sort of bring up the issue of simple credibility?

And I think mr. St. Genis needs to recognize that his credibility rating at the moment is exceptionally low I am receiving. Even before the mr. X thing took place.

I.

Would receive comments from Roman Catholics saying why are you debating? Folks who have knowingly put themselves out of the mainstream. Specifically Jerry Matta ticks and Roberts and Jenna's and by the way.

The reason that there is supposed to be a debate in October between myself and mr. Matta ticks Is not because I go seeking these things. I did challenge Matta ticks to debate at the same Baptist school where he got to speak.

Without.

Opposition or response I did challenge him to do that because I I felt that was just incredibly out of line and incredibly deceptive. But in reality, we're not seeking after these individuals. In fact, we didn't seek after mr St. Genis for almost anything that we've done the first time the debate on justification on Long Island.

After what was it 95 nice was a nice six maybe for the debate that we did at Boston College that was arranged through someone else through Scott Butler, but we had challenged Jimmy Akin to do that and he had said yes, and then when he Decided not to he without even asking us Obtained Roberts and Jenna's take his place.

So we hadn't even thought that one we were looking at the one only the year afterwards is as a possibility and that ends up how it worked out, but Actually the reason that mr St. Genis and mr. Matta ticks were the are the opponents was the opponent in April will be the opponent October Is because it's a Presbyterian Church that is sponsoring it and both Are former Presbyterians and hence a desire existed to respond to those who had been Presbyterian.

And to give a response to those particular individuals, but There is a serious problem here in that mr. St. Genis now represents not only a Minority movement, and I'm not commenting on the validity of this minority movement.

I think there's a lot of historical basis that traditionalists have to point out that modern Roman Catholicism is a Variant of historical Roman Catholicism, there's no question about that. But they don't represent in their emphases and frequently in their teachings.

The same thing you're going to hear from your local priest or from your local bishop or from the Pope himself for that matter. And so there have been people said hey, you know stick with the people who are you know at least you know mainstream.

Though it's getting harder and harder to find such individuals who are mainstream not only that mr. St. Genis has sort of Marked himself out in other ways not only by his his behavior. In in the past which I had seen a change for a while in fact.

We even wrote a joint statement on how you should do debates I have by the way removed that from our website because it's I think it's utterly irrelevant now.

But.

Before that There is on our website documentation of his behavior with art Sippo and now those two are it Going after each other which which again I've mentioned before and I just chuckle when I see this kind of thing but there are Behavior issues in regards to the recent issues with mr. X and The private emails that were sent out and the nature of those emails and the comments that were made I don't believe for a second.

I still believe That mr. St. Genis is working laboriously upon some huge major Article that's going to appear on the CIA website or for sale or something In which he is going to be using Going after the Webster King stuff to try to basically cover For what took place there as they see we were right the whole time You know look at all this just just horrible use the early fathers and all the rest of stuff I think that's still coming, but there are others there are other things.

I mean if you look at the CIA website You know one of the big things that Robertson Janice does now is is promote Geocentrism and let's face it. That's not exactly mainstream Catholic belief he's got some strange stuff about Judaism and Israel and Zionism and Conspiracy things that just make most folks go.