October 21, 2015 Show with Tony Costa on “The Migrant Crisis & Islamic Expansion in Europe”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live -streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of October 2015 and I'm very excited about a brand new guest that I've never had on iron sharpens iron before thanks to my friend pastor

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Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Massachusetts He informed me about this brother that was conducting a debate with a

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Muslim in Massachusetts and he told me you got to get Tony Costa on your program.

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You will not regret it and Tony Costa has earned a BA and an MA in the study of religion biblical studies and Philosophy from the

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University of Toronto Tony received his PhD in the area of theology and New Testament studies from Radboud University in the

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Netherlands He is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature the Evangelical Theological Society and the

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Evangelical Philosophical Society his area of expertise is biblical and systematic theology cults the

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New Age movement and comparative world religions with a specialization in Islam Tony is also an ordained minister of the gospel as a

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Christian apologist. Dr Costa gives reasons for the valid belief in Christianity and also advocates the unique claims of Jesus Christ He also lectures at various universities and colleges on the existence of God as well as the credibility of the

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Christian faith Tony is a professor of apologetics with the Toronto Baptist Seminary He also teaches with the

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School of Continuing Studies at the University University of Toronto in the area of world religions he also serves as adjunct professor with Heritage College and Seminary in Cambridge, Ontario and Providence Theological Seminary in Colorado Springs, Colorado He has lectured and ministered throughout the throughout

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Canada the United States and overseas He is the author of worship and the risen Jesus in the

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Pauline letters Tony is happily married to a wonderful wife has three children and a grandson and resides in Toronto, Canada And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time.

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Dr. Tony Costa Yes, and we are going to be discussing today something that's very timely and something that definitely demands

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The attention of everyone on the globe that is the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe that is currently taking place and before we even go into that I Want you to give our listeners some background about yourself and how you came to know

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Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior Immigrants to Canada and Raised in a very religious

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Roman Catholic home. I had no Assurance of my salvation. I was very religious, but I was very lost and I always thought

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To have peace with God I tried everything that the Roman Catholic Church could afford and I still lacked that that assurance and It was not until I was about 15 that two of my cousins had come to faith in Christ and they shared the gospel with me for the first time and They simply challenged me to to read the

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Bible for myself and Start reading it I was I was seeking to actually prove them wrong because I was trying to prove them that our

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Roman Catholic tradition was was correct And the more I read the scriptures the more convicted I became and it was to reading

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God's Word that I came to faith And that was about so when I was about 15 and then following that I Came across various other faiths cults and I Was wondering why there was so much what seemed to be so much religious confusion and that event you propelled me into a ministry of apologetics and I knew that the

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Lord had a calling in my life to to defend the faith to equip the Saints and To give reasons for the

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Christian faith. And so that's what I do I I I teach as you noted and I also equip students or Giving answers for their faith and I also engage in various debates with Muslims atheists

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Mormons and everyone else Tell us something about Toronto Baptist Seminary Well Baptist Seminary is it's a reformed

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Baptist Seminary and it was started I believe back in the early 30s by TT Shields and it was also the pastor of the

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Jarvis Street Baptist Church in Toronto one of the oldest Baptist churches here in the city And it's a conservative seminary

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We're privately funded because to receive funding from the government. We would have to compromise and that would mean

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Compromising some of our morals and so forth. So it's not a no It's not an overtly large school, but it is a very faithful school

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The model of our seminary is Cata Christi according to Christ And so we train

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Men and women here we train men for pastoral ministry and also for permission work women as well for missionary work and Students, I'm proud to say

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I've moved on to doctoral studies and some of them have actually gone out into the mission field particularly in outreach to Muslims and I know that one of your

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Faculty members there. Dr. Michael Haken He's going to be a guest on iron sharpens iron God willing in the near future to discuss the church fathers

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And also to discuss John Owen Yes, and I'm looking forward to that interview very much well, tell us something about the background of why there is a migrant crisis in Europe currently taking place

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Well, the migrant crisis going on in Europe is of course an attempt for many of these people of people who are escaping the horror and the

07:31

Bloodbath that's going on under Isis in both Iraq and Syria The issue at hand however, is that back in February of this year?

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Isis said that they would send 500 ,000 migrants into Europe so they threatened to send all these migrants into Europe But they also claimed that among those 500 ,000 migrants they would have 4 ,000 operatives

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Isis operatives who were timing to Establish and plant parasols throughout

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Europe The other problem here as well is it's been calculated that about 80 % of these migrants actually are not from Syria, so they're not 80 % of them are not even of Syrian origin and There's been a couple of warnings given by a number of people the

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Lebanese education minister for instance Elias Musab met with British Prime Minister David Cameron and Informed him that thousands of Isis radicals were among the 1 .1

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million Syrians in the the migrant camps And he also went on to predict that one in 50 of these migrants are members of a terror of a terror organization

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Namely Isis and and so the issue at hand here is that While we're hearing about the so -called refugee crisis

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Isis had already predicted this back in February and the concern that Many in Europe are having and I'm not talking about the politicians

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Chris. I'm talking about the average Europeans The concern that they have is that this is going to serve as a segue for terrorists to come into the continent of Europe Established terrorist cells.

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In fact, some of them have actually already been caught And so this is the grave concern is that with the flood of these migrants coming into Europe?

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there is an influx of Terrorists coming in and the other problem at hand here is that most of these are

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Muslims and there is a worldview in Islam that sees itself as Supreme over all other religions.

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There's an expansionist Concept in Islam a global vision that seeks to Islamize the world.

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So there are a lot of concerns here what is the Religious makeup of the the

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Migrants involved in this that are flooding different areas of Europe I know that you said that many of them are

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Muslims what from what Muslim or Islamic sect are They from predominantly and I'm assuming these are

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Muslims predominantly being persecuted by other Muslims those who are not the terrorists coming in in stealth, of course, but Tell us something about the religious

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The irony here is that the majority of these

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Muslims are Sunnis But Isis is Sunni as well And so this is this is what raises the question.

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The question is the the Muslims that that Isis are killing are Shias Which form about 10 to 15 percent of the world's

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Muslim population to completely different sect from the Sunnis Predominantly in Iran and Lebanon, but the

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Shias are being killed and so are the Yazidis The Yazidi girls who who are captured and so forth the

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Yazidis are small sect in Islam They're also being attacked as they're deemed to be heretics

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So the irony here is that the majority of these migrants are our cities the very denomination that Isis belongs to And so the question is are these people truly refugees?

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Are they simply trying to migrate to Germany so that they can can have a better living and so forth?

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But here's the irony these are not majority Shias which would be people who would be persecuted and they're not majority

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Christians There are a lot of Syrian Christians as well But they are not the majority. The majority are definitely

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Sunni Muslims and has there been any reason given by leadership among the

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Persecuted victims who are Sunnis as to why their own

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Sunni brethren are persecuting them Are you referring to the Sunnis that are among the migrants?

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Yes, that's right. Yes The question is if they're being attacked or persecuted

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It's because they're not upholding the Sharia. The Sharia, of course is Islam and if they're not living the

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Sharia or following the Sharia law Under the dictates of the leadership of Isis, then they would be they would be deemed hypocrites and then according to the

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Quran Hypocrites are to be killed as well. So that's the only reason where a

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Sunni The Isis group would would kill any of the Sunni Muslims as if they deemed it to be hypocrites are not fully following the

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Sharia law Now is there any I don't know if there's been any in -depth interviews done or press conferences or anything like that but if these migrants are

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Sunnis Are they merely nominal? Muslims or are they interpreting

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Sharia law differently? What what what's going on there that you would have so many? identifying themselves as Sunni and Then being persecuted because they are not even adhering to the very basic Islamic teachings that Would be upheld by Sharia law because many of these migrants that Were vetted by by a number of the authorities in Europe what they found actually was that many of them had

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Many of them had cell phones and on the cell phones actually had videos of Isis beheadings and all types of atrocities that were going on What I think is happening here is

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I think they simply want to move on to Europe because they know that Particularly Germany. That's where the majority of them have migrated to into Germany They want

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What they deem to be a better life and but the problem here is that?

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They're still Muslim at heart and and the issue here is that they they are devoted to a world view

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That still sees Islam as supreme Sharia law is superior to Western law

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And so the question is is this also a move to? Potentially Islamicized Europe and I think that I think it is because One of the most important events in the life of Muhammad the prophet of Islam Was that in the year 622

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AD Muhammad fled from Mecca to Medina? this is known as the Hijra and this was the migration they weren't his right

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Arabic means to migrate and When Muhammad migrated from Mecca to Medina One of the very first things he did was he built a mosque and it was in Medina that Muhammad began to receive the revelations

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He subjugate the unbelievers and to bring them under Sharia law and so this is the concern of many people particularly people in Hungary and Hungary has got a lot of class

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Because they didn't want anything migrants the real question Chris that we should be asking here is why is it that Saudi Arabia and all?

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The oil -rich Gulf States have not taken in one refugee I mean after all these are their

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Muslim brothers, right? And they have not taken one of them and the reason that they gave or not accepting any refugees is they are concerned about the national security of their nations and For the very same reasons

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I gave you they they've also said there may be terrorists among their

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Among their group and so they're simply trying to protect their own national interests However, Saudi Arabia has graciously offered

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Germany to build 200 mosques all over Germany Giving up the money to build mosques to expand the hegemony

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Migrants in their borders within their borders, so that's very telling yes, I would say

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The what in your in your opinion, I don't know if how much knowledge you have about percentages but what is your view of how

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What what's what percentage of these? migrants are in fact merely

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Trying to spread Islam and coming under the guise of being persecuted falsely

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Christianity differs from Islam in that Christianity which is the basis of Judeo -christian principles of Western society believe in the separation of church and state which is fundamental to us from democracy in Islam, however

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There is no there is no separation of mosque and state It's it's one is a unitary world view

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And so the majority of these Muslims while they will go to the West and enjoy it

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It's economy and so forth we must never forget that still at heart they believe in the

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Quran They believe Muhammad is the best example that that men should follow He's the prophet of Allah and so forth at the center of their faith is the belief that Islam teaches them that migration the

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Quran teaches that migration is permitted to Muslims on the basis that they will spread the

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Islamic faith that's right in the Quran and So if they're going to migrate the Quran says they must migrate with the intention of spreading the religion of Allah and his messenger

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So I would say that I mean, I don't have the exact figures here, but I would say that that Muslims that they are true to their faith

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They must uphold the principle that they are called to engage in jihad and jihad doesn't always necessarily mean

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Physical warfare but she had an Arabic means to strive to struggle and part of the striving of struggle of the

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Muslim is to expand the Islamic faith Christianity is a global religion as well

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We have a global vision to take the gospel to the whole world and make disciples of all nations

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But of course the means of doing so as you know Chris is to do so through love and depending on the

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Lord However in Islam the way that the faith is to be spread There's three stages.

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Maybe I can discuss that later There are three stages that that Islam that's down.

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Well, you could you could discuss it right now if you like, okay Okay, very good In Islam, Muhammad laid down three stages of jihad

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The first stage is called the peaceful stage and that's where She taught when you're in the minority to be tolerant to to basically teach

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Islamist Peace and to get along with with the unbeliever and so forth But that's only supposed to be a temporary measure

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Until the Islamic community begins to increase now as it increases in numbers

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The second stage that Islam dictates is what's called the fantasy app and this is where the community begins to make certain demands special demands like Halal sections and grocery stores

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Demands to provide prayer rooms for them in universities colleges in the workplace.

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In other words using Western laws Against the the unbeliever to advance the club

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The third stage is known as offensive he had and this is when he's on the community become strong enough that they can take over and topple the unbelieving government and this is what we saw in Iraq and in Syria when

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President Obama withdrew the final troops that were there he left a vacuum there and ISIS took the opportunity to come in and Take over which they did very quickly.

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We saw this in Egypt with the so -called Arab Spring which actually was a winter when you think about it at Blizzard where Mubarak was toppled by Muhammad Morsi Who was a member of the

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Muslim Brotherhood a a noted terrorist organization? And the moment the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt you will notice they started implementing

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Sharia law immediately and so those are the three stages when you are in the minority you play nice you get along and Then the whole idea is that when you become greater in numbers

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Then the opportunity will come for you to basically in in post

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Sharia law depose the the The unbelieving or the copper that Quran calls in the copper the unbelieving government

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And this is why when you think about it Chris the birthrate among Europeans is what about two point three kids per family

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The birth rate among Muslim families are about 68 per family and simple mathematics

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You give them another 50 years or so. You could see that the face of Europe is going to change dramatically

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But the demographics are definitely going to change and Europe will become redoubly Muslim So this is right now specifically

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Germany that's being flooded with migrants or are there other areas But Germany has received the bulk of these migrants and And Canada as well are we just have a newly elected prime minister who?

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unfortunately Has very ungodly views he Is very pro -islam

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And so we're very concerned right now We just have an election up here, but he wants to bring in about 25 ,000 migrants into Canada I know

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President Obama has been talking about bringing Thousands of migrants into the United States as well

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So I have nothing against Migration my parents my son of immigrant parents

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But you see Chris when my parents came here They integrated with party and they and they pay their taxes and so forth and what's happening in many cases

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There's a lot of these migrants are not integrating into Society they're they're separating they're they're forming separate communities and a lot of that has to do with the

21:56

Quranic injunction that they're not supposed to befriend Jews and and Christians I'd like to announce our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr

22:07

Tony Costa our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

22:13

That's Chris Arnzen chris Arnzen at gmail .com

22:19

if you have a question on the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe or if you have a general question on Islam as well

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We'll accept that in addition to the specific topic that we have at hand

22:34

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please include your first name at least The city and state where you live in the country where you live if you reside outside of the

22:45

United States, that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

22:52

Now is there evidence that any of these These migrants are genuine victims of persecution

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Well, there are some and those are mainly Christians predominantly

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Christians, in fact my Coptic Coptic Coptic and Persian that is

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Christians from Iran particularly those who the ones who are most susceptible are those who are converts that is

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Muslim converts to Christianity and just recently there was a

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Story in one of these migrant camps that of a Christian migrant who was brutally beaten

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Simply because he had he had admitted or confessed that he was a but he was a convert feminist long to to Christianity and He was badly beaten yet.

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The authorities had to come in and get him out of there But the question remains you're on European soil.

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You're under Western law. You're no longer under You're no longer under your Sharia law

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And so why are they attacking so -called apostates? Well again, they're attacking apostates because under Sharia law, which is the law of Allah the supreme law the divine law

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Apostates are to be killed. And so what we're finding is that even in Western countries

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Muslims are imposing Sharia. There are countries in Europe like Belgium for instance and others

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Where there are various locations that are basically Sharia enforced

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There's a no -go zones for non -muslims is there is there are there I should say areas of the

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UK that are like Areas in the UK smaller areas where yes

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Some of them were trying to do this the police did get involved and basically told them They cannot do that What they were doing

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Chris was there were basically if someone walked through a Muslim Neighborhood with a bottle of wine in their in their bag

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They would grab this from from the individual and basically drain it down the sewer in other cases.

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They would attack Homosexuals and so forth and basically tell them you're in a

25:06

Muslim area get out of here They would threaten their lives and so forth. So so the problem here is is it's not this

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Integration, it's not the melting pot mentality where everyone just becomes an American When they come to that country, the idea here is that there's the segregation where you have these

25:24

Muslim pockets of Muslim communities When I was in London just a month ago or so,

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I was in an area of London Which was heavily populated by Muslims And I found it quite interesting that the former

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Prime Minister Tony Blair Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair who lived in that area had armed police in front of his home

25:45

Hmm, so it's quite interesting when you really think about it And we're gonna be going to a station break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr

25:56

Tony Costa About Islam in general or specifically about the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe Our email address again is

26:05

Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com

26:11

and We ask that you please at least give your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence

26:17

If you live outside of the USA if you're calling about Something that is personal or private or something that perhaps makes you too nervous to identify yourself you may remain anonymous, but otherwise, please at least give us your first name and your

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Location of residence and we're gonna be right back after these messages So don't go away

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That's the private story Welcome back.

30:18

This is Chris Lawrence, and if you've just tuned us in our guest today is dr Tony Costa Who's on the faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada and we are discussing the migrant crisis and the

30:30

Islamic expansion in Europe and If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

30:36

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com I do want to thank pastor

30:43

Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts for recommending my guest today and because of that I'm going to give

30:51

Pastor Gary a plug the website for Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts is sovereign grace ma dot org sovereign grace

31:04

Ma for Massachusetts dot org. I'd also like to thank our good friends at Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts for being a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and Pastor Mark Lukens and the congregation view this program as being valuable enough to put us on their monthly

31:26

Budget, and I want to thank them from the bottom of their heart from the bottom of my heart for viewing us in this light and for supporting us and encouraging us and enabling us to remain on the air with their financial help and And Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts can be found on the internet at Providence Baptist Church ma dot org

31:51

Providence Baptist Church ma for Massachusetts dot org and We once again, thank you.

31:58

Pastor Mark Lukens and Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts Tony the the migrant crisis that we are experiencing are the

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The the Muslims that are claiming at least That they are persecuted.

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What specifically are they violating in according to their own profession in regard to Sharia law if they're being persecuted well, the only the only thing that they would be persecuted for again is if they're not following the

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The standard view of Isis in terms of Sharia So if they if they object to for example,

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I suppose established the Caliphate under Baghdadi they believe to be the head of the

32:45

Islamic State so Muslims who would would rebel against Baghdadi as the

32:51

Caliphate for instance Muslims who would who would You know from Isis just recently they killed a few people who

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So from from them and so forth, but these would be Muslims who would be deemed to be hypocrites by the leadership of Isis and Until they're convicted at five if there seem to be spies working for the

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West They would be seen as traitors and then they would be killed now obviously

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We as Christians are supposed to be compassionate and When we hear of people who are being persecuted even if they're not

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Christians We should have a heart for a heart of compassion for them

33:37

What how do you How do you sift out those that are truly victims of this and those?

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That are just terrorists in disguise wolves in sheep's clothing Well, it's interesting

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Chris because our former prime minister up here in Canada Stephen Harper wanted to extend wanted to affect these migrants and Pay closer attention to Christians and Yazidis and all those who truly are being persecuted killed and raped and so forth

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He got in trouble for even projecting that because he they thought you should just pick them indiscriminately

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The only problem is that in Islam There's also the doctrine of taqiyyah and taqiyyah teaches that is permissible to lie to the unbeliever

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And so we're up against a couple of problems here. Number one. You've got an

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Islamic world view that sees all other religions as Beneath Islam, especially

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Judaism Christianity which are taught to be perversion in the Quran of the true religion of Jesus and Moses So you've got that problem and but you've also got the issue of taqiyyah which means that Under the

34:53

Quran Muslims under duress can lie. They can also lie to advance Islam But then the other problem here is that as you just rightly noted

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Christians are obligated by our Lord's Command to Love even our very enemies

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So I think what we need here Chris is is we do definitely need a vetting process

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I think we need to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves and Realize that yes, we are called to love our neighbor.

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Yes. We are called to love our enemies but at the same time we cannot throw reasons out into the air and Forget that Islam is not just a religion.

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It is also a political ideology Both religious and political at the same time.

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You cannot divorce those two concepts and so What it means is adding people

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And those who come into Western countries Have to make it clear that they are going to Obey the laws of both

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Western countries that they're entering into there have been there's a lot of pushback In the West by a lot of Muslims who are basically saying we don't care about democracy particularly in England in London there have been a lot of protests for Muslims of basically health science and democracy go to hell and Sharia is the answer and so forth.

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So we must bear in mind that in the mind of Muslims first and foremost is the

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Sharia which is the Muslim law and under Sharia law There's certain things that are taught that are incompatible with Western values

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So for instance, they reject freedom of expression Freedom of speech you cannot just say whatever you want about Muhammad Look what happened to me the cartoonist

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Charlie Hebdo in Paris, right? You cannot say anything derogatory about Muhammad You probably have seen what's happened with with Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller I believe was in Garland, Texas where two shooters went down there to kill them or having a exhibit

36:56

On Muhammad day and so forth now I'm not into provoking people of any religious stripe

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But I do understand that under the First Amendment people do have the right

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To be offensive people do have the right to say things even a little even if it offends a religious group of any sort

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But it's quite interesting, isn't it Chris that in Western society in the United States and Canada and in Western Europe It's perfectly fine to mock

37:25

Jesus Christ in art In comedy in cartoons, but you'll notice that the same right is not afforded to the

37:34

Islamic faith And that's simply because under Sharia law to mock Muhammad the Prophet is to incur the death penalty

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Do you know anything about the sect of Islam? I may be mispronouncing it, but I'm a deeth.

37:49

Yes Ahmed ease I think they're also called I understand that they are genuinely a peaceful sect because they believe that their

38:00

Messiah has come and and Done away with all acts of violence that are commanded in the

38:09

Quran and the Hadith Right, but the problem with the Ahmadiyya is the aphrodisiac originated in India in in the mid 1800 and they a man by the name of Balaam Ahmed who appears to Ahmed who they believe to be the

38:27

Mahdi the promised one in Islam, but also they believe him to be the second coming of Jesus Christ I mean the opportunities will not tell you that But they claim that he is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

38:38

No, no, who won't tell you that. I'm sorry I'm not what he is generally at first will not tell Christians this.

38:44

Oh, but they do they do secretly believe it They do they do believe it and in fact in my debates with them

38:50

They have openly confessed it. In fact, I have one one of my debates We have one of their imams on on video openly admitting that he is the second that There's that will

39:00

Ahmad is the second coming of Jesus Christ however, they are seen as heretics by mainstream

39:07

Islam Simply because they teach that there was a prophet after Muhammad, right?

39:13

And that is taboo that is that is lastly sacrilegious because in Islamic teaching the

39:19

Quran says that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets and Therefore there are no prophets after him.

39:24

So the Ahmadiyya are actually brutalized. They're killed in Pakistan in Indonesia So they're not actually seen they are to Muslims what

39:35

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are to us they're considered a cult and They do take the things of their teacher as Let's say a new light

39:46

But you cannot read the Quran and walk away Especially chapter 9 of the Quran which is the last revealed chapter called the surah of the sword

39:54

Which gives the marching orders for Muslims to engage in jihad You cannot walk away from the Quran and not know that the

40:01

Quran does mandate violent subjugation of the unbelievers now are any of those involved in the migrant crisis

40:09

Ahmadiyya No, Ahmadiyya are primarily in Pakistan in India Indonesia The ones who are moving out of Syria and Iraq are predominantly

40:23

Sunni Muslim But I've got an interesting quote here Chris from you remember Muammar Gaddafi.

40:29

Yes, who led Libya. I Want I want to bring a quote here for you.

40:35

He said this quote We have 50 million Muslims in Europe There are signs that Allah will grant

40:42

Islam victory in Europe not without without swords without guns Without conquest, he will turn it into a

40:50

Muslim continent within a few decades. Now, that's quite interesting. It's almost prophetic He said that that is that Europe will become

40:57

Muslim not with swords not with guns not with conquest They will do so by simply

41:05

Populating it Now was was he really a

41:10

Fundamentalist Muslim Gaddafi. Well, he was a Sunni Muslim He was a

41:16

Sunni Muslim. He was huge on on expanding Islam, but his very lifestyle

41:21

I mean he he cavorted with a lot of women. He had a so -called harem of women

41:27

So he was a dictator. I would say he was a corrupt dictator But he did truly believe

41:33

I mean he always claimed to be a devout Muslim He claimed that he believed in the expansion of Islam.

41:39

In fact, he even tried to convince number of diplomats to convert to Islam But he was nonetheless a corrupt dictator, but in Islam Chris, you have to understand that in Islam The idea is that in the end it's all based on Scales of justice of Allah the idea of Islam is that if your good works outweigh your bad works

42:00

Even if it's 51 % good and 49 % bad you will enter paradise

42:06

So the the Muslim pilot who flew the one of the planes the Twin Towers in New York the night before He the night before he flew the planes into the towers

42:18

He was drinking up and he was in a strip bar. These are things that are considered harem or unclean in Islam But he was doing it because he understood that his act of jihad would purify him of all those sins

42:32

So it's a it's a brownie point religion where if you do more good than bad Then then you will make it into paradise

42:40

Now a Saddam Hussein on the other hand, he was clearly just a nominal Muslim, wasn't he? Yes, he would have been considered a nominal

42:47

Muslim, but interestingly enough Christians in Iraq lived much better and much more peaceful Under Saddam Hussein, that's what

42:55

I've heard. Yes, but missionaries Absolutely, they lived much more comfortably under Saddam Hussein in Iraq and also with President Hosni Mubarak in Egypt Christians or cops there the

43:07

Egyptian Christians there lived relatively peaceful But ever since the

43:12

Muslim Brotherhood came into power, they started burning down churches started killing many of these

43:20

Cops and so forth. So So there are cases where you do have these nominal

43:26

Muslims like Mubarak and and and he's saying But but they're not being consistent when they apply consistently the rules of Sharia Then what you see

43:39

ISIS doing that is a that is a true reflection of what Sharia law looks like what an Islamic state

43:45

Look like now a denajad in Iran is is a true Orthodox Muslim, correct?

43:52

Yes, he is Shia. He would be considered a heretic by the Sunni. Hmm. Yeah, he is a

43:58

Shia Most of Iran are Shia But he he definitely believes that Israel as a nation should be destroyed

44:09

In fact, this is part of Islamic eschatology that the end will not come

44:14

Until all the Jews are slaughtered. And so in one of the prophecies of Muhammad found in the

44:20

Hadith He actually said the final arrow will not come Until all the

44:25

Jews are killed and he said that even a tree will call will call out Say Muslim.

44:32

There's a there's a Jew hiding behind me coming to kill him. So the the eradication of Israel Is is part of Islamic eschatology to bring in or usher in the end including the coming of the monthy

44:46

Now what would be the primary difference between the Shia and the

44:52

Sunni that has them killing each other? The the primary difference has to do with the succession of Muhammad the succession of Muhammad The Sunnis don't believe that Muhammad left any family successors

45:05

No sons or daughters, even though he could have an adopted son He repudiated his adoption to his son

45:13

Zaid and he did have a daughter Fatima However, the Sunnis believe that after Muhammad died

45:19

Muhammad had appointed that The Islamic Empire should be ruled by what's called the caliphs

45:26

The caliphate and the caliphs are basically the head of the Islamic State And so there were four of them in early

45:32

Sunni Islam Basically Abu Bakr Umar Uthman and Ali now the

45:39

Shias Came to disagree with the Sunni the word Shia means party. So this was the party of Ali Ali was the cousin of Muhammad and also his son -in -law and they believed that the succession should go through his family and They believed that Ali was the rightly appointed

46:00

Successor of Muhammad and this led to a huge bloodbath Even back about 50 years after Muhammad's death

46:08

There was this huge bloodbath and and eventually Ali was was killed in battle as was his

46:14

As was his family and so ever since that Point the

46:20

Shias and the Sunnis have had nothing but daggers in their eyes for each other. They see each other's Heretics she is accused the

46:27

Sunnis of killing the prophets cousin and son -in -law Ali the the

46:33

Sunnis argue that the Shias Went against Muhammad's orders to follow the caliphs and so forth

46:40

But the Shias believe that there is a coming Mahdi Now the Sunnis do as well

46:45

But this is more prominently a Shia belief that Mahdi It will come to the world and he will actually come after Jesus Christ Because Muslims do believe

46:56

That Jesus Christ will return but the average American Canadian Westerner doesn't understand that the

47:03

Islamic version of the second coming of Jesus is That he comes back as a jihadi first to destroy

47:10

Christianity He will destroy Christianity and also rebuke his followers for believing that died on the cross for believing that he was the son of God And Jesus will figure prominently in the end as a prophet who will

47:25

Bring the world under submission to Islam That that first mythological view

47:33

Sounds a lot like the battles that have gone on an organized crime. I mean it's because they're really not

47:42

Doctrinally different are they and any significant doctrinally, there's just a few differences

47:48

Fundamentally on the fundamentals, they believe that there's only one God that is Allah and he is a unitarian

47:54

God not trinitarian denied the Trinity, right? He's only one person in the

48:00

Godhead. They believe that Muhammad is his last messenger They believe the Quran is his last revelation.

48:07

They believe that the Bible has Been corrupted by Jews and Christians, even though the

48:14

Quran does not support that Muslims have developed a doctrine that the Bible has basically been corrupted by it by its followers and so forth

48:24

So the Sunnis believe that the Quran as an internal text existed

48:31

In heaven prior to its revelation to Muhammad the Shias don't believe that they don't believe that the

48:37

Quran is eternal They believe that it had a beginning in time So that would be another major difference between the two the nature of the

48:45

Quran as the Word of God Now, is there any? Way or or place or arena where the

48:56

Sunni and the Shia and some of the other sects of Islam put their differences

49:04

Aside and actually unite in any significant way. I'm a super dad Yes, and they do well first of all the hatred for Israel One so hezbollah is a primarily

49:16

Shia terrorist organization. Hezbollah up in Lebanon has Has been trying to destroy

49:22

Israel for a number of years now And of course the Palestinians are predominantly

49:27

Actually, they're all cities and so other other Sunni countries will side with Iran and Lebanon in trying to destroy

49:37

Israel. Another area is Sunnis and Shias will actually stand shoulder -to -shoulder in Executing people who blaspheme

49:46

Mohammed's one of the most famous examples was in the late 80s When Salman Rushdie wrote his book the

49:52

Titanic verses, huh? I just saw him interviewed recently again Yeah, yeah, the

49:57

I told a Khomeini issued a pop law an Islamic judicial decree to have to have

50:04

Salman Rushdie killed for mocking the Prophet interestingly enough the Sunni world joined with Iran and Yusuf Kardawi who is the present

50:15

Mufti of the Muslim Brotherhood at that same time in the late 80s He also came up in total agreement with Khomeini to have

50:24

Salman Rushdie killed And of course our favorite pop singer at the time. I remember the 70s remember that cat

50:30

Stevens Yes You know Very well -known pop song

50:38

Cat Stevens converted to Islam He's now known as Yusuf Islam And he also at the time on live

50:46

TV openly said that That Salman Rushdie should be killed. Yeah, I remember that Mocking the

50:53

Prophet so there are times when Muslims will join together even even the condemnation of the so -called

50:59

Muhammad cartoons She hasn't Sunnis will join forces in areas like that to to to attack or to kill those who would mock the

51:09

Prophet No, when you say they join forces Are you actually I'm not talking about just with an ideology.

51:15

Are you meaning like side -by -side? Comrades and arms if you will. Yes. Yes. I mean if they

51:21

Sunni was to kill Salman Rushdie Or or if a Shia would be killed

51:27

Sunni and Shia would basically pat them on the back and say, you know, you did the right thing and incidentally the

51:33

Pamela Geller I'm not sure if you're married if you're familiar with Pamela Geller with Atlas drugs

51:40

She she's currently right now under protection in the United States the FBI has actually

51:48

Blamed her for this because she was one of the creators of the drama Hama day in Garland, Texas Along with Robert Spencer.

51:57

So Pamela Geller at the present moment is in serious danger for the life But she's she had 24 security

52:04

Following her. Now. What is her background? she's Jewish Jewish girl and She she got involved in in in this whole area after 9 -eleven

52:15

She was shocked that even the aftermath of 9 -eleven and she became very concerned with the expansion of political

52:21

Islam Going back to cat Stevens What group what sect is he a part of?

52:31

Because it's interesting that he publicly Was agreeing with the death sentence looming over the head of Salman Rushdie when he was in hiding and yet then we in the

52:47

United States have him a part of a a concert after 9 -eleven to promote some kind of solidarity between Muslims and others.

53:00

I think that was pretty right pretty. I mean is he as he recanted any of those views or is he not?

53:06

No, he has not recanted any of those views. Yeah And and he's definitely following and you know in the

53:12

Hadith is very clear Mohammed said whoever Whoever leaves this religion kill him But Mohammed also made it a practice and the word

53:19

Sunni comes from the word Sunnah The Sunnah in Arabic means the pattern the model of the

53:25

Prophet So in the Quran Mohammed is set out as the exemplar all humanity in Christianity It is

53:32

Christ. We we follow the imitatio Christi Christ is the one that he imitates but in Islam Mohammed is is the exemplar and Mohammed would routinely have people who spoke against him wrote against them wrote poetry against him and mocked mocked him

53:48

He would routinely happen people killed and he would call his followers to get rid of them

53:53

So when you hear Muslims and in Paris killing all these journalists and artists in the

53:59

Charlie Hebdo massacre One of the things that the one of the one of the killers said was we have avenged the

54:04

Prophet Mohammed So they are simply following the pattern that has been set down in the

54:10

Sunnah, which again is the pattern of the Prophet and Going back.

54:16

I know that you mentioned Oh, I can't think of his name right now.

54:23

Well, perhaps we'll come back to that now because I was No, not

54:28

Qaddafi I'll have to come back to it because his name slips my mind The the militant

54:35

Muslim figure in the 80s From Iran Yeah, yes, yes, yes was he she was he was he also

54:47

Shia So I the ayatollah

54:56

Khomeini will the original one is dead though Yeah, and yeah, and he was also she you're saying that's correct, they're all

55:04

Shia, right and What is the predominant makeup of Muslims here who has immigrated to the

55:11

United States I say here if you're Canadian Let me let me blend in North America The predominant makeup of Muslims in North America predominantly

55:22

Sunni predominantly Sunni Because Sunnis are about 85 % of the world's

55:28

Muslims the Shias are 10 to 15 percent But it's interesting in Dearborn, Michigan where you have where it's been dubbed the back of the

55:38

United States In Dearborn, Michigan, there is a predominant Shia presence there

55:45

Yeah, and although they haven't reached the stage of Violence yet. They've they're sort of bordering on their own little

55:52

Sharia law there, aren't they? Well, they are. I mean you probably heard there in the United States how these

55:58

Christian bakery Christian bakery stores were being sued or not

56:04

We're not making wedding cakes for same -sex couples for their wedding or people there

56:11

I got sued and lost their business. Oh boy interestingly enough It was an undercover video done in Dearborn, Michigan where four different bakeries were interviewed by someone posing as a same -sex

56:26

Adherent and when he asked these bakers if they would do a wedding cake or a wedding every one of them

56:32

Refused but yet if you notice the media the media Is not running after Muslim bakers.

56:39

They're running Bakers and not and making that a national case And and basically the the

56:46

LGBT community Has for some reason have their Have the their targets on on the church, right?

56:55

Not so much on Islam. Well, it could be that they're terrified for their lives I'll point them off building top of buildings and then they're stoned to death

57:06

Well, that's that's your real life And the the irony here Chris we have it up here in Canada, too If you have members of the

57:12

LGBT community that are very strongly pro -palestinian and yet the irony here is that in Israel?

57:18

homosexuals have equal rights Israel as a secular state they recognize the same -sex relationships

57:26

But in the Palestinian territories, you can be killed for being a homosexual

57:33

We're to be going to another Station break before we start our second hour on our interview with dr

57:41

Tony Costa if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

57:46

We do have a couple of listeners that have already emailed us and are waiting for you to address their questions

57:53

The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen at gmail .com

58:02

Please at least include your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the u .s.

58:08

And please unless it is a Sensitive area where you insist on remaining anonymous

58:17

We ask if you please at least give your first name, but we understand if if you request to remain anonymous

58:24

We will respect your wishes Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

58:30

Don't go away. We'll be right back with dr Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary attention coin collectors and investors

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01:03:18

We were made Welcome back.

01:03:27

This is Chris Orns and if you've just tuned us in our guest today for the last hour has been dr.

01:03:33

Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and we are continuing our discussion with him about the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

01:03:47

Chris Orns and at gmail .com Chris Orns and at gmail .com chris

01:03:54

Arnz and gmail .com. I just wanted to highlight a Few upcoming broadcasts in the near future that we're going to be having on iron sharpens iron

01:04:06

This coming Monday October 26th. We have two former

01:04:11

Muslims on The first hour we're going to have the BT on you we lay

01:04:17

And he is going to be discussing reviving the black church the

01:04:23

BT and you believe is an African American who was raised in a Christian home and was a convert to Islam and Then later by God's mercy

01:04:34

Became a born -again believer in Christ and now professes the faith that he once knew as a child in Jesus Christ as his

01:04:45

Lord God and the Savior and I'm looking forward to having the BT back on the program.

01:04:50

He had been a guest to several times on the old iron sharpens iron and This is the first time he's been on the all -new iron sharpens iron

01:04:58

So we're looking forward to that. We also have right after the BT on Monday from 5 to 6 p .m

01:05:06

we have Kareem some she Basha who is also a Former Muslim he was actually raised in a

01:05:14

Muslim home and by Christ's mercy is Now a born -again believer in Jesus Christ, and we're going to be hearing about his remarkable testimony

01:05:23

Which is chronicled in a book that he has written Paul and me and that is published by solid ground

01:05:32

Christian books in Birmingham, Alabama, and let me give a little plug to them again.

01:05:38

That's solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com

01:05:45

Also on the same theme that we're addressing Islam We have on November 9th, which is a

01:05:54

Monday. We have Gordon nickel for the very first time On iron sharpens iron he is going to be discussing his book the gentle answer to the

01:06:04

Muslim accusation of biblical falsification and our guest today said he is familiar with Gordon nickel and I hope that you could join us for that program and I have heads up for you

01:06:20

We are going to be giving away copies of that book on November 9th The gentle answer by Gordon nickel, but we're only giving them away to people who are serious about evangelizing

01:06:33

Muslims people who are pastors or they are in Some kind of a ministry where they are actively involved in evangelizing

01:06:45

Muslims This is far too valuable a book to give away to anyone that may have it just gathering dust on a shelf

01:06:54

Or being used as a coaster on the coffee table so if you are seriously and actively involved in Christian evangelizing

01:07:06

Muslims The Christian evangelizing of Muslims, please make sure you mark on your calendar

01:07:17

That Monday November 9th. We are going to be Interviewing Gordon nickel and giving away his book and once again our

01:07:30

Our email address here for those of you who wish to ask a question of our guest today Dr.

01:07:36

Tony Costa is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and we do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Harrison Who asks

01:07:48

I know that your guest is Canadian and I'm not sure how Familiar he is with our president

01:07:55

Barack Obama, but many have accused Mr. Obama of being secretly

01:08:03

Muslim and I don't understand how that could wash knowing of his overtly liberal

01:08:11

Policies and beliefs that appear to radically contradict Islam So that would be a question for you.

01:08:19

Dr. Costa if you care to comment Yes Was born a

01:08:25

Muslim he was born in a Muslim country To Muslim parents

01:08:33

And so in Islam if you're born From a mother father in particular you are a

01:08:40

Muslim now. He openly admitted he openly admitted that He went to the madrasas which are

01:08:46

Islamic schools He claimed that one of the most beautiful sound he heard in the morning was the

01:08:52

Adnan which is the call prayer from the minaret But then later he claimed to have converted to Christianity Now the issue here is and I'm not kidding

01:09:03

I'm not going to go to the debate whether or not he was in America he has an American birth certificate or not, or whether he's a

01:09:09

Muslim or not because He he was definitely born Muslim He speaks very highly of Islam.

01:09:17

In fact when he was in in Al -Azhar University in Cairo, which is considered the Vatican of Islam He spoke highly said

01:09:26

Islam gave us signs and father gave us Mathematics Islam gave us all of these wonderful things and inventions a lot of which can be disputed

01:09:35

But it's interesting whenever Mr. Obama has spoken about the Bible or Christianity He seems to speak of the

01:09:42

Bible disparagingly. He attacks the Mosaic laws concerning slavery he has also spoken against Instead of dealing with terrorism straight on he's referred to the

01:09:55

Crusades as one of those You know, well Christians have the Crusades. So there's violence in every religion

01:10:01

He refuses to call the Fort Hood massacre a terrorist act He referred to it as a workplace violence where it was clearly terrorist in content the the the assailant was crying out a lot of Akbar and while he was killing the servicemen

01:10:20

But at the same time what type of Christianity does mr. Obama hold to I mean he was part of Jeremy Wright's Church, which

01:10:28

Subscribed to a black liberation theology and he is famous for saying in one of his sermons

01:10:35

God God, he said not forgot to bless America. He actually said and excuse my language.

01:10:41

He said goddamn America So again, what type of a Christian would that be?

01:10:48

So I'm not going to say whether or not he's a Muslim. He seems to be very Amicable towards Islam he speaks very highly about the

01:10:56

Quran and so forth and He almost seems reticent to to use the word terrorism in relation to Islam I think a lot of that is baggage from his younger days, but I do think he is very sympathetic towards Islam Yeah, that is an irony because he

01:11:15

He is liberal In favor of same -sex marriage and all these things that is that Muslims find abhorrent

01:11:25

And I'm gonna go back to the homosexual issue in a minute though Because there is there seems to be quite an ironic thing going on in Islam in regard to that.

01:11:35

But There are also other liberals that have for some reason praised

01:11:44

Islam and while simultaneously Blasting Christianity and Slandering it and mocking

01:11:57

When when the Chattanooga Muslim went and killed the number of the servicemen in in in the state of Tennessee It took the

01:12:08

White House five days to lower the flag And you have to ask the question Why did it take that long to lower the flag in memory of these fallen servicemen?

01:12:18

When the Supreme Court decision when the US Supreme Court decided on same -sex marriage, the White House was ablaze with rainbow colors immediately

01:12:26

So you have to ask the question what took the president five days to order the flag to be lowered on on the

01:12:34

White House In sign of mourning for these servicemen in in Chattanooga So it's these types of things that just make your eyebrows rise

01:12:42

Right. Well, he seems he seems very he seems to be very very comfortable

01:12:49

With with Islam now, why do you think that is? Other than the fact that he may be secretly

01:12:55

Muslim Why would liberals of any sort do that because they do liberals who would be the first to have?

01:13:04

The sword against their throats if they were living in a nation under Sharia law

01:13:09

For all kinds of insane things that liberals believe in in practice. Why what is the story behind that in Europe?

01:13:16

I think I think the bottom line Chris, I think there is a There is a cultural hatred towards Christianity remember

01:13:25

Christianity has for some reason even in our colleges universities We see a revisionist history taking place it was it was white

01:13:33

European Christians who who enslaved of the blacks It was it was the white Europeans who colonized

01:13:40

The world and and and took advantage of the minorities. There is a very anti -christian streak even in our academia

01:13:47

But Islam is considered Different it's something that is part of what was believed to be the minority at one time and for some strange reason

01:13:57

Liberals have no problem attacking Jesus attacking Christianity attacking churches and there seems to be an anti -christian sentiment in America At the same time there's it's it's one of the most pious nations on the earth

01:14:11

But politically speaking it seems to be perfectly fine to attack Christianity I think that the question here

01:14:18

Chris is also deeply spiritual as well There is a reason why the Christian faith is opposed and hated

01:14:25

Islam as a religion really when you look at it does appeal to the unregenerate nature of men it permits men to have four wives he can have an unlimited number of sex slaves if he engages in jihad and Conquers a certain culture a certain nation and so forth and so I think is the only

01:14:45

Liberal fellow who's had the guts to come out and actually call Islam what it is

01:14:51

And I think Richard Dawkins recently was on the show and Richard Dawkins now is echoing the same the same idea at least moderate

01:14:57

It's consistent in attacking Christianity, right and Islam and every other religion. Yeah, he's staying for all religion

01:15:06

Factor two, I think a lot of these liberals know that if they were to say anything against Islam or even

01:15:12

Muhammad They know what the consequences would be But just like the Christian bakers are being put out of business and sued

01:15:19

They won't do the same when it comes to the Muslims going back to the issue of homosexuality

01:15:25

There I have heard from a number of people that seem to be very credible Including one that was in the military who was specifically during the

01:15:34

Gulf War was trained a part of the training was that they

01:15:40

Said that the Muslims much to the surprise of many Westerners unmarried young Muslim men do practice homosexuality and it's almost

01:15:50

It's almost winked at and there's a blind eye turn to it until someone gets married

01:15:58

And I wanted you to sift through Fact through from fiction in this topic.

01:16:05

Also, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie The Kite Runner but it seemed that male pedophilia

01:16:13

Involving young boys Who are forced to dress up like girls and dance and so forth?

01:16:19

It was rampant even among the Taliban and people involved in the most strict form of Islam Yes.

01:16:27

Yes that is true, in fact when you look at the percentage wise the country that has more

01:16:38

Hits on on on the websites on the Internet with Pedophilia or just Hardcore pornography, but the country that has the most hit is

01:16:50

Pakistan and also in in Pakistan, there is an area there's a city called

01:16:57

Peshawar and in Peshawar, Pakistan, you have a very high rate of Pedestrian there where young boys are being used for sexual pleasure

01:17:07

By men because they feel that he did that with women that would constitute fornication and that could bring to death penalty

01:17:14

But the the interesting thing here is that in Islam under Sharia law? Homosexual sex or sodomy is also punishable by By death, but for some strange reason they treat these minors as well.

01:17:28

They're not really adults and so it's okay in Afghanistan there was a there was a documentary done in 2010 called the dancing boys of Afghanistan and It's a practice called

01:17:39

Baka Bazi Baka Bazi and this has to do with these so -called dancing boys who dress up as as girls

01:17:48

They put on makeup and they adorn themselves in a very effeminate way

01:17:54

And it's very common in Afghanistan. In fact some u .s. Servicemen Were complaining about the fact that Afghani soldiers were sexually abusing these children and They were later told by their superiors not just to turn the other way look the other way

01:18:12

So it does go on in these cultures Officially it is forbidden in Islam But it does go on in Pakistan.

01:18:22

It does go on in Afghanistan Do you think a lot of it could be because of the misogyny?

01:18:28

Islam there they would be much more willing and eager to execute women involving before sexual activity outside of marriage, but Under Sharia law under Sharia law for a woman if a woman is raped and here's the one of the strangest text in the

01:18:46

Quran Under Sharia law and detailed in the Quran if a woman is raped She has to produce four witnesses that to claim that she was raped

01:18:58

Non -consensual every rape is not consensual But to claim that she's been raped that she wants justice she would have to provide for witnesses now

01:19:07

How many women do you know can provide for witnesses to the rape unless the four witnesses are the rape itself?

01:19:14

And so women are extremely vulnerable in Islamic countries if they are raped most of them are accused of fornication

01:19:22

And end up usually being killed There's the issue of honor killings in Islam 91 % of honor killings are committed by Muslims And so this is a serious problem and the ones who suffer in these honor honor

01:19:34

These honor crimes are women and is there any truth to the fact that the

01:19:40

American military especially in Afghanistan seems to be a Fond of sporting beards as to not give off the false impression that they're homosexual

01:19:53

That I've not heard of that I've not heard of what I have heard of is that Particularly during the

01:19:59

Gulf War many of the Americans the American soldiers Marines that were working

01:20:04

That were engaging in the airstrikes against Iraq at the time many of them were told to take off their crosses

01:20:11

Take off any jewelry that that bore the cross they were not allowed to drink any alcohol

01:20:17

And and basically conform to to Sharia law Okay, we do have a listener

01:20:25

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania Who wants to know what sect of Islam do you think poses the greatest threat in?

01:20:38

The on the globe Well, I would say Sunni definitely they are the majority but the

01:20:45

Shiites as well the Shiites do have do believe in the concept of jihad Iran is a huge human rights violator

01:20:54

Even today there are American Americans who are imprisoned in Iran Some of them just because they converted to Christianity or there's a pastor who's languishing there in in prison and the other thing is that when

01:21:09

President Obama and and and and His delegates were meeting over the whole nuclear deal

01:21:18

Nothing was said to secure the release of these Americans, which I think was deplorable But Sunni definitely number one 85 % of Muslims are

01:21:27

Sunni and I think they would be the major threat All the attacks in the United States that have taken place since 9 -11 have all been committed by Sunnis We have

01:21:37

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island who Asks are Those of other

01:21:44

Islamic sects outside of Sunni who immigrate to the United States?

01:21:50

more more commonly prone to join Sunni mosques because of the lack of threat of violence here

01:21:59

And I've been assuming our listener would and his question include Canada because that's where you're from Right, right.

01:22:07

Well, I think the smaller sects of Islam like the Ismailis for instance The Ismailis are not really they don't really follow the

01:22:15

Sharia In Islam, they're they're much more left -wing But there are a lot of Muslims that come to America that become let's just say disengaged with the culture

01:22:26

And they want to rediscover their roots and a lot of them Usually end up going into the mosque and many of them become radicalized there.

01:22:35

That's a problem that we have up here in Canada as well But the majority of them in the majority of cases

01:22:41

Yes, they are the Sunnis the Sunnis are much more austere much more rigorous in their observance of Islam and Sharia law yeah, well,

01:22:49

I'm assuming that the question involves the fact that there are more Sunnis in America and North America in general and Since the there might not be a mosque of a different sect that's rid of what readily available to another sect

01:23:05

Yeah, they usually try to stick to their to their own Because they they have their own cultural

01:23:13

Differences, but that's not to say that you can't convert within I I knew a

01:23:18

Muslim fellow who who I debated Who went from being an Ahmadiyya? to becoming a

01:23:24

Sunni Muslim And now he's left Islam he's now kind of in kind of waiting and and and wondering, you know

01:23:33

What what what religion or what true faith is the one that you should follow now?

01:23:38

But he did it there is cases where Muslims do convert Interdenominationally.

01:23:44

Mm -hmm. And just to get it out of the way in case somebody's wondering we did do a whole program

01:23:50

Recently a two -hour program on the nation of Islam that is not an Islamic religion at all

01:23:55

It's a it's a cult that just claims some adherence to right It's a group that that started in the

01:24:03

United States under under a wall of fire been followed by Elijah Muhammad and then

01:24:12

It splintered after the death of Elijah Muhammad. So there are a few of these splinter groups that claim allegiance to The nation of Islam, but the predominant body is led by Louis Farrakhan Right and the nation of Islam basically is not considered mainstream at all

01:24:27

It's basically a religion that says that all the prophets were black. Jesus was black

01:24:33

Allah is black and the true Muslims are black and the the white men the white folks are white devils and In fact, in fact the the nation of Islam teaches that you and I Chris because we're white men

01:24:46

The white race was was basically a Chemistry Experimentation that went wrong

01:24:54

Created by an evil entity So that's where the white race falls in but the nation of Islam is definitely not

01:25:01

Like some kind of a mad scientist or something, correct? Which very interesting it sounds like the name

01:25:09

Jacob in Hebrew But they believe that some scientists screwed up on an experiment and this bought about the white race

01:25:16

Some people think I'm just making this up. That's just science fiction, but And they are clearly not

01:25:25

Orthodox Muslims For lack of a better term because they they are violating

01:25:31

Shirk, they by identifying God as a bore Allah as a black man

01:25:36

Yeah, they are violating the most serious Prohibition in their religion, that's right.

01:25:43

And they also believe that wallop art who was the founder wallop part They said with a lot himself in the flesh and that is

01:25:49

Absolutely shirk and blasphemous in the plot to assert the incarnation, right?

01:25:54

So you wonder if they really even read Quran although they claim some adherence to it.

01:26:01

Mm -hmm. I mean, how could how could they overlook that? that Prohibition in the

01:26:07

Quran about right. Sure, right. It's simply reinterpreted by Farrakhan and their leaders

01:26:13

Yes, and it is interesting. This has come up before on this program and then some of the debates that I've organized with.

01:26:19

Dr James White But it is interesting how? the Quran Repudiates The Trinity and yet defines it in a way that no

01:26:32

Christian has ever defined it Including Mary as a part of the Godhead Trinity right, right

01:26:43

Which is the word for three, right? So what the concept they got three we have to ask what the three what?

01:26:50

Because the Quran assumed as you rightly noted that the the Christians worship Allah Mary and Jesus so you've got the father the mother and the son so they think the

01:27:01

Quran teaches that Christians think that God had a Consort and to his consort he produced Jesus.

01:27:06

So the very very literal vulgar interpretation of the incarnation

01:27:13

And we're gonna be going to our final break now, and this is your final opportunity to email us a question for dr

01:27:19

Tony Costa on Islam or in more in particular the Migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe.

01:27:27

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:27:33

at ch r is a r n z e n at Gmail .com and please include your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:27:43

USA don't go away We'll be right back with dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary attention coin collectors and investors

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01:32:18

And welcome back, this is Chris arms and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes we have had dr Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary on our program today discussing the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe and If you'd like to join us on the air, you've only got about 20 minutes to do so That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:32:39

chris ar n z n at gmail .com We do have another listener here in Pennsylvania We have

01:32:53

Titus who is in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania asking other than setting up Theocracies in different parts of the world that are not

01:33:06

Muslim. How can we stop? The Islamic spread throughout

01:33:13

Europe and even North America and elsewhere Well, we have to understand of course education is the key word

01:33:20

You have to know what you're dealing with you can't fight something. You don't know Unless you know what it is.

01:33:26

You can't stop it So the first thing we have to do I mean there's in some cases even the United States and Oklahoma for instance where they?

01:33:33

try to establish a rear courts and I believe the state The high state of Oklahoma shot that down.

01:33:41

So one of the things we have to do is we have to alert Those in government our congressmen on speaking.

01:33:47

I'm a Canadian, but I'm speaking as if I'm an American your congressmen Senators and so forth.

01:33:53

I think that they have to be made aware that Islam is not just religion It is a political movement as well.

01:33:59

We also have to make them aware that Sharia is incompatible with Democratic values

01:34:04

Ben Carson got in big trouble if you remember for saying that an American president Cannot be a

01:34:10

Muslim and what he was trying to say by that is that as a Muslim his first and his first Commitment is to Sharia law

01:34:18

But the problem with Sharia law is it does not recognize equality there men and women are not equal

01:34:24

There is no equality of speech for instance Religion And so the only way we can stop this type of Expansion is we have to know what we're dealing with and that is we are also dealing with a political movement that sees itself as supreme that sees itself as Taking over the world and this is not fear -mongering.

01:34:48

This is simply what the Quran says that Islam will become dominant and triumph triumphant over all religions

01:34:56

And so the key here is information getting to know what Islam is Our churches have to become aware of this many of our churches are visibly ignorant about Islam and its political threat to the

01:35:09

West And so I think educating ourselves educating those in government about these dangers

01:35:16

I think is absolutely absolutely important and and Ben Carson was saying that he did not want a

01:35:26

Muslim to be president of the United States, right and he didn't say that I don't believe that it was against the the laws of America the

01:35:35

United States but but I don't want a Muslim to be president of the United States either and I think

01:35:41

I think that anybody but a strict Muslim Should not not find anything bizarre or hateful or bigoted in that at all

01:35:51

No, not at all. Not at all because They know that that Islamic law does have

01:35:59

Certain tenants that that violate democratic laws yes, and My friend pastor

01:36:08

David Dykstra, he wrote a book a number of years ago called yearning to breathe free thoughts on immigration

01:36:18

Islam and freedom and The the title of the book comes from the Emma Lazarus poem on the base of the

01:36:27

Statue of Liberty monument and the actual The actual poem what everybody always refers to when they are saying oh, we can't

01:36:40

Discriminate against people's religious beliefs when they come here. That's against the very

01:36:47

Basis of our concept of freedom and freedom of speech and freedom of religion

01:36:52

Well, it's interesting that the the poem at the at the base of our Statue of Liberty's Monument National Monument it says with silent lips

01:37:05

Cries she with silent lips give me your tired your poor your huddled masses yearning to breathe free

01:37:15

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore send these the homeless tempest

01:37:20

Toes to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door now

01:37:25

Muslims if they are true And faithful to the Quran and the

01:37:30

Hadith they are not yearning to breathe free The paradigm in Islam is

01:37:39

Is that between a master and slave because in Islam God is not father

01:37:44

He cannot be addressed as father. God is the master and You are the slave.

01:37:50

In fact, Islam means submission surrender a Muslim is one who submits And so the paradigm is master -slave a master does not owe his slave anything the slave owes abject obedience to the master yields everything to the master and So within the

01:38:06

Islamic framework the idea is not that of being free and enjoying freedom it's the idea of being enslaved to Allah and The favorite name that Muslims usually go by is the name of the law of the law means the slave of Allah In Christianity, you'll notice the paradigm is so different.

01:38:23

Yes. We are the servants of God But we are also children of God and God as a father

01:38:28

Loves his children God provides for his children and God seeks the betterment the salvation of his people

01:38:34

But that is not what you find in Islam. The God of Islam is very So transcendent.

01:38:39

He cannot he cannot come down to us The God of Islam is very fickle. He could choose you.

01:38:45

He could throw you to the side He could do whatever he wants with this creation. In fact, the Quran says that he will fill all of hell with men

01:38:53

So it's a very different paradigm And if you're used to believing that the highest aspiration is to be a slave of Allah Then the concept of democracy and freedom is something that is almost boring

01:39:07

You have debated Muslims you have interacted with Muslims that truly believe

01:39:16

That the Quran is from Allah and they truly believe in the teachings of the

01:39:22

Hadith Do you believe that these? Folks will first let me ask you what percentage of them?

01:39:30

if any reveal openly a Solidarity with the terrorists of the world

01:39:39

Isis and so on and if they do not if they

01:39:45

Claim some kind of abhorrence or opposition to that. Do you believe it is genuine?

01:39:52

and if so, how could they Adhere faithfully to the

01:39:58

Quran and the Hadith and yet oppose these things We keep hearing a lot of the media about moderate

01:40:05

Muslims and moderate Islam and I always have the same question over and over again Where are all these moderate

01:40:10

Muslims? Where are the protests? Where are there? their protests Coming together and and announcing publicly without reservation that we condemn

01:40:21

Isis we condemn what's going on around the world We don't see this and so silence at times can be taken as as a scent

01:40:30

But in terms of the Muslims that I've debated Some of them have have been quiet about it some of them

01:40:38

Seem to not want to touch the subject others. There's one in particular Who?

01:40:44

Seems to want to revise Islam or even sanitize it He claims that the

01:40:49

Hadith cannot really be trusted and so The the odd thing here is that on the one hand, they're claiming to be true

01:40:56

Muslims But on the other hand, they're they're they're selectively picking and choosing the so -called peaceful verses from the

01:41:02

Quran and trying to say that Muslims who act violently are not really Muslims And so you you wonder are these

01:41:09

Muslims being straightforward with you? Are they practicing taqiyyah? because once again The concept of taqiyyah is to advance

01:41:17

Islam by line and So that's the issue here. Can can they be trusted now?

01:41:23

That's not to say Chris that there are not moderate Muslims in the sense that are there Muslims in the United States and Canada that Are freedom loving?

01:41:30

Yes, there are but they're not being consistent Muslims They're not following the dictates of Islam fully and so in that case

01:41:39

They would not be truly representative of what Islam is Yeah, how could you distrust the

01:41:46

Hadith and be truly representative of Islam? What are you speaking of the Quran only group, which is a speaking of a

01:41:56

Scholar who is basically saying that we you know We can't really trust that beat or the the early biography of Muhammad by the shock and and these are starting statements

01:42:07

But he's not a qurani. The quranis are a modern Group that have emerged within Islam that claim that only the

01:42:15

Quran is inspired We don't need the Hadith or anything like that But traditionally Sunni and Shia Islam have always affirmed that the

01:42:22

Hadith are the second inspiration second Inspiration to only second to the

01:42:28

Quran. Yes. I don't know if you're familiar with Hamza Abdul Malik. Yes He was the very first Muslim that dr

01:42:37

James R. White ever debated that I arranged the debate here on Long Island, right and Hamza at the time was a

01:42:44

Sunni And has since become a qurani But he only believes in the

01:42:50

Quran and not the Hadith which makes sense, right? Yes, it was interesting that even the

01:43:01

Ahmadiyya Imam and I had lunch with he thought that that was

01:43:08

Unattainable view of Islam Information about how he talked how he dressed what he did what he did in this situation how he treated

01:43:25

Jews and Christians in other words, even the fact that Muslims pray five times a day The five time a day prayer is not based on the

01:43:32

Quran the Quran teaches three times a day, right? The five times a day is based on the Hadith of Abu Khari So if you get rid of the

01:43:40

Hadith and you might as well start praying three times a day instead of five Mm -hmm, because the Quran mandates the treat the three time a day prayer.

01:43:48

Mm -hmm And in fact Hamza doesn't do a lot of those things that he used to do a very very nice man

01:43:57

I really Enjoy speaking with him and he's a very friendly guy

01:44:02

He has come to many of James White's debates even with Roman Catholics, right? So I know so we can only pray for him to come to the truth of Christ I really want to make sure that before we run out of time that you really unburden your heart

01:44:20

And let our listeners know Precisely what you want most etched on their hearts and minds before they leave the show today.

01:44:27

So speak freely with Issues that you really want to address and and hammer down Right.

01:44:35

Well, first of all, let me say that That God is saving Muslims.

01:44:40

There are Muslims that are coming to faith. I've had the great honor of baptizing a number of them

01:44:47

And family families and individuals who've come to Christ and some of them to ministries like my own

01:44:54

Others who have been who have been workers in the field of Reaching out to Muslims.

01:45:01

So the first thing I want to say is that we should not be discouraged by this news that somehow

01:45:09

We're being overshadowed by Islam. But the good news is that the gospel is the power of God to save it is saving

01:45:16

Muslims and this is one of the reasons why the gospel is hindered and churches are destroyed because I Believe that Isis understands as any other

01:45:24

Muslim does that the gospel doesn't be safe. It has an effect of power So don't be discouraged that the first thing the second thing we have to realize is we must be educated on Islam We cannot afford to put our heads in the sand and ignore this

01:45:37

Islam is here. It's here to stay. We have to deal with the fact that our shores are being

01:45:44

Our gateways that Muslims are coming through and I think that yes in one sense Islam Politically is a threat that we ought to be aware of I think we also have to see this as a

01:45:55

Move of God to bring these people to our shores So that they too can hear the gospel so that when we confront our

01:46:02

Muslim neighbors our reactions should not be one of fear a reaction should be one of this is a human being made in the image of God and What can

01:46:11

I do to share the gospel with this person? And so I think it's very important that we understand that at the end of the day

01:46:18

Muslims are human beings made in the image of God They are human beings that we owe a debt to give the gospel to them.

01:46:26

They are they are part of the Great Commission But at the same time we also have to realize we have to distinguish the worldview

01:46:32

Islam does contain a worldview that is adverse to Western values

01:46:38

It does have a supremacist ideology. It is totalitarian in the sense that Islam has a global vision to bring all the world under the hegemony of Islam Mohammed Said that I've been commanded by Allah to fight the people until they confess that there is no

01:46:59

God but Allah and I am his Messenger in other words the marching orders that Muhammad gave his followers was that they are to engage ultimately in offensive fighting

01:47:08

To bring the world under the Muslim rule However, we have a much powerful tool

01:47:14

The gospel is God's power and the good news is that God is still sovereign

01:47:20

God Rules the Lord reigns and he does whatever he pleases and so we need to rest assured assured in this fact that God Reign he is on the throne and that with the power of the gospel

01:47:34

We can see a lot of these Muslims come to Christ There are many many many

01:47:40

Muslims in the Muslim world today who are coming to Christ in great numbers I've heard statistics showing more so now than any other time in history

01:47:50

So we must not lose sight of the fact that our God works all things according to the great counsel of his will he's doing it to his glory and We have a challenge before us.

01:48:01

The church must become indeed the Church Triumphant and up for Jesus as the hymn says lift high his royal banner

01:48:09

It must not suffer loss. So every foe is vanquished in Christ is Lord indeed Amen and if you could also

01:48:19

Let us know. I know I know that Individuals are individuals and they vary from person to person in the way that You should approach them with the gospel and so on But as far as opening comments to spark conversation with Muslims What what do you suggest if you're you're sitting and having lunch with a colleague or a neighbor or so on someone?

01:48:49

perhaps you just noticed that they may have a Quran at the in a restaurant or something that makes them stand out that you would see them as Possibly being

01:49:01

Muslim wearing a kufi or something What I find that very instrumental is is talking to Muslims about the assurance of salvation if one does not teach assurance salvation ultimately, it's a lot who will fit and a lot could do with you whatever you pleases and The one thing that Muslims do not have is they don't have assurance and forgiven

01:49:23

It's all based on a merit system the more good works I do I may I may enter paradise, but there is no certainty the

01:49:29

Quran gives no assurance of this So the one thing I always emphasize is peace with God we have peace with God through Jesus Christ You have this peace, you know that if you were to to leave this world today that you would be in the presence of God I've not yet met a

01:49:46

Muslim who's confessed that he had that assurance So they lack that assurance you may give them your testimony how you've come to have this peace with God I would also mention the fact that in the

01:49:56

Quran Jesus is mentioned 25 times by name Muhammad is only mentioned four times

01:50:02

In the Quran Jesus is called the Word of God. He's said to be virgin born. He is sinless faultless.

01:50:08

He does miracles Muhammad doesn't do any of these things and I would ask my

01:50:13

Muslim friend. Why is Jesus given such an elevated role in the Quran? Why is he called the Word of God?

01:50:19

Why is he mentioned 25 times whereas Muhammad is only mentioned four times by name? So these are great

01:50:26

Conversation starters, I think it's also important to tell our Muslim friends that you know

01:50:32

The idea that Jesus is the Son of God by little Reproduction and so forth.

01:50:38

They need to be corrected on this because they think that we as Christians believe That God sexually procreated

01:50:45

Jesus through Mary They think that we believe in three gods if the Quran says Christians are teaching polytheism

01:50:51

And these are great opportunities to clarify what what we actually believe So they actually

01:50:57

Believe as the Mormons believe that they believe that Christians view the conception of Christ Yeah, and the same with the

01:51:05

Mormons view of that I said,

01:51:10

I think Muhammad got us confused with Brigham Young Who first taught this doctrine that Jesus was conceived by Well, he believed it was

01:51:23

Adam God God of this world and so it was actually Brigham Young who taught the physical conception

01:51:30

The physical reproduction of Jesus Christ's body by God the Father the Virgin Mary No Christian in Christian history has ever taught that God Right and most

01:51:43

Mormons today especially young ones have never heard that either But it's clearly there in the early teachings, yes

01:51:57

And but the Muslims do believe Obviously, they deny his deity, but they believe in his virgin birth

01:52:05

Absolutely, but we have to be clear here that they believe that his virgin birth the Quran says that Jesus is just like Adam Adam was created directly by God and Jesus was directly created by God in the womb of the

01:52:17

Virgin Mary. So his conception was a result of Basically God saying be and he was and so the

01:52:25

Quran does not say that There is an indication Jesus was the word from Allah, which is very strange

01:52:30

It seems to be borrowing the language of John's Gospel But the Quran says that all that Jesus was a creation just as much as Adam was and he was directly created by God's spoken word

01:52:41

And it is ironic that they believe Muhammad to be the better prophet

01:52:48

And yet they admit that Muhammad had sin They admit that Muhammad was not born of a virgin

01:52:55

Right. They they they do teach that Jesus was sinless born of a virgin and is the

01:53:01

Messiah, correct? And they don't believe in his resurrection because they don't believe he died

01:53:14

Before 157 that they crucified him not nor that they kill him. No, no, no death.

01:53:19

No resurrection You can't have resurrection without death So they the Quran they're not the Quran but the hadith projects his coming into the future

01:53:27

Where he comes back as a jihadi and then it says he will die. He will live for 40 years

01:53:32

He will die and he'll be buried next to Muhammad in Medina And then at the very end, he'll be resurrected with Muhammad and everyone else.

01:53:41

Oh Wow, that's kind of strange after all that Jesus Future where he would come back as a jihadi and eventually he would die and therefore you'd be resurrected

01:54:11

Now I know that Muslims are by nature vehemently opposed to idolatry

01:54:18

But I have heard that sometimes Muslims can be seen at like Medjugorje and places like that Do you know that kind of a thing happening?

01:54:33

They will have Because the

01:54:41

Malayoki right and and The last two chapters of the Quran chapter 113 114 you have their incantations that are meant to ward off evil

01:54:53

But it's interesting Chris because mothers usually charge Christians with being cross worshippers.

01:54:59

They worship the cross But here's the irony is that when they do their pilgrimage the Hajj in Mecca when they they run around the

01:55:06

Kaaba There's a stone there in the corner of the Kaaba which which

01:55:13

Legend says was sent down from heaven, but archaeologists have actually confirmed. It's nothing but a meteorite do at the end of the

01:55:21

Hajj is the Circumambulate the Kaaba seven times and then they'll go up to this stone and they will kiss it and caress it.

01:55:29

Yeah Can we say that Muslims are stone worshipers I Mean Christianity of course, we don't worship objects.

01:55:50

We don't worship the cross the cross Simple just like the Islamic the crescent moon is a symbol of Islam We don't charge them with worshipping the moon

01:55:58

But they certainly do they do caress and kiss the black stone at the conclusion of the

01:56:05

Hajj Now is that all? Islamic sects or any opposed to the

01:56:12

Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam and whether you're Sunni Shiite or Al -Qaeda, you must perform the

01:56:18

Hajj So they're all there together then. Yes. Yes, but they're all dressed the same

01:56:23

So they can't tell the difference between a Sunni and a Shia if there was it be some serious problems but in most cases

01:56:29

Sunnis and Shiites they all dress in a white in a white robe and They're virtually indistinguishable

01:56:37

Now, I don't know. I know that you're on the Faculty of Toronto Baptist Seminary, but I never asked you if you were a cessationist or a

01:56:46

Continuous regarding the sign gifts and that kind of thing. But but I was wondering what you make of the number of Muslim converts to Christianity that claim a vision of some kind as a part of their

01:57:02

Transformation. Well, I have met Christians personally here in Toronto I spoke at a conference on the persecuted church and I did meet some of them who who who ex -muslims that is who truly suffered church tremendously for the faith and tortured in prisons in Pakistan and elsewhere and some of these

01:57:20

Muslims came to faith because of a dream or a vision that they had

01:57:25

And the language that is used in this dream and visions are very similar to the language we find in the

01:57:31

New Testament where we're Saul of Tarsus, for instance, where Jesus says, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And in all honesty,

01:57:38

Chris, I believe these brothers. I don't think they're making it up. They suffered tremendously. They lost family members

01:57:44

Because of their conversion to Christianity. I don't think they would have made that up and then lose their families, lose their business and then come to the point of putting their life on the line.

01:57:55

Now, there are definite stories that I've heard that I think are not genuine but there are bona fide cases of true conversions where you see spiritual maturity.

01:58:03

They're growing in Christ and they experience what I can only call a Saul of Tarsus -like encounter.

01:58:11

Yes, when I called somebody from who was hosting a program on the Trinity Channel which

01:58:17

I think you're probably familiar with. I've been on there a number of times and I've done debates there as well.

01:58:23

Right. Yes, and the Reformed Baptist host said that in his experience most of the converts, because he is a cessationist just as I am, and he said that most of the converts that he is aware of that had a vision involved do not see visions after their conversion ever again.

01:58:40

It's not like an ongoing thing. That's what I've also found out to be true, that after their conversion they never saw this.

01:58:48

They never had this experience repeated. Yes, that wouldn't be a classical charismatics or Pentecostal.

01:58:54

No, and the men that I've met who have encountered this, to my knowledge, are not charismatic.

01:59:01

And if you could, if you would care to share any contact information in the event that somebody wants to have you speak at their church or what have you.

01:59:11

My website is TonyCosta .webs .com, that's all one word, P -O -N -Y -C -O -S -T -A dot webs,

01:59:19

W -E -B -S dot com. And so there you have my contact information. There's a number of resources there, online debates that I've done.

01:59:27

You can view them on YouTube and Trinity Channel shows and so forth. Well, I thank you so much for being a part of our broadcast today.

01:59:34

I look forward to having you back very soon. And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

01:59:42

Savior than you are a sinner. God bless and we hope that you tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpens Iron.