October 21, 2015 Show with Tony Costa on “The Migrant Crisis & Islamic Expansion in Europe”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arns.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of

October 2015, and I'm very excited about a brand new guest that I've never had

on Iron Sharpens Iron before, thanks to my friend Pastor Gary George of

Sovereign Grace Chapel in Massachusetts.

He informed me about this brother that was conducting a debate with a Muslim

in Massachusetts, and he told me, you've got to get Tony Costa on your program.

You will not regret it.

And Tony Costa has earned a BA and an MA in the study of religion, biblical studies, and

philosophy from the University of Toronto.

Tony received his PhD in the area of theology and New Testament studies from Radboud

University in the Netherlands.

He is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature, the Evangelical Theological Society, and the

Evangelical Philosophical Society.

His area of expertise is biblical and systematic theology, cults, the new age movement, and

comparative world religions with a specialization in Islam.

Tony is also an ordained minister of the gospel.

As a Christian apologist, Dr. Costa gives reasons for the valid belief in Christianity

and also advocates the unique claims of Jesus Christ.

He also lectures at various universities and colleges on the existence of God as well as the credibility

of the Christian faith.

Tony is a professor of apologetics with the Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He also teaches with the School of Continuing Studies at the University of Toronto in the

area of world religions.

He also serves as adjunct professor with Heritage College and Seminary in Cambridge, Ontario, and Providence

Theological Seminary in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

He has lectured and ministered throughout Canada, the United States, and overseas.

He is the author of Worship and the Risen Jesus in the Pauline Letters.

Tony is happily married to a wonderful wife, has three children, and a grandson, and resides in Toronto,

Canada.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Dr. Tony

Costa.

Well, thank you, Chris, so much.

Yes, and we are going to be discussing today something that's very timely and something that definitely demands

the attention of everyone on the globe.

That is the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe that is currently

taking place.

And before we even go into that, I want you to give our listeners some background about

yourself and how you came to know.

Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Yes, I was an

immigrant to

Canada.

I was very

religious, but I

was still like that.

Two of my cousins had come to faith in Christ, and they shared the gospel

with me.

And they simply started reading it.

I was seeking to actually prove them wrong, because I was trying to prove

them that our Roman Catholic tradition was correct.

And the more I read the scriptures, the more convicted I became.

And it was through reading God's Word that I came to faith, and that was about when I was about 15.

And then following that, I came across various other faiths,

cults, and I was wondering why there was so much confusion.

And that event, I knew that

the Lord was there.

Tell us something

about Toronto

Baptist

Seminary.

Toronto Baptist Seminary is a

reformed Baptist

school.

It's not

an overtly

large school, but it is a very faithful school.

The motto of our seminary is Carta Christi, according to Christ.

And so we train men and women here.

We train men for pastoral ministry, and also...

And I know that one of your faculty members there, Dr. Michael Haken, he's going to be a

guest on Iron, Sharp, and Zion, God willing, in the near future, to discuss the church fathers,.

And also to discuss John Owen.

Yes, he's a wonderful man, one of our...

Yes, and I'm looking forward to that interview very much.

Well, tell us something about the background of why there is a migrant

crisis in Europe currently taking place.

Well, the

migrant crisis

going on in

Europe...

80 % of them are not even of Syrian origin.

And there's been a

couple

of warnings.

The issue at

hand here

is that while we're hearing about this, folks

had already predicted that many in

Europe are having...

And I'm not talking about the politicians, Chris.

I'm talking about the

average

European.

The other problem

at hand here is that most of these are...

That sees itself as a

global vision that there are a lot of...

What is the religious makeup of the

migrants involved in this that are flooding different areas of Europe?

I know that you said that many of them are Muslims.

From what Muslim or Islamic sect are they from predominantly?

And I'm assuming these are Muslims predominantly being persecuted by other Muslims, those who are not the

terrorists coming in in stealth, of course.

But tell us something about the religious...

Well, here's the

irony,

Chris.

The

irony

here is that the

Yezidi

girls who are captured and so forth, the Yezidis are a small

sect in Islam.

They're also being...

Or are they simply trying

to migrate to Germany so that they can have...

And has there been any reason given by leadership among

the persecuted victims who are Sunnis as to why their

own Sunni brethren are persecuting them?

Are you referring to the Sunnis that are among the migrants?

Yes, that's right.

Yes.

Well, to be killed

as well.

The ISIS

group would kill

any of the Sunni

Muslims if they deemed them to be hypocrites or not fully following the Sharia law.

Now, is there any...

I don't know if there's been any in -depth interviews done or press conferences or anything like that.

But if these migrants are Sunnis,

are they merely nominal Muslims?

Or are they interpreting Sharia law differently?

What's going on there that you would have so many identifying themselves as Sunni and then

being persecuted because they are not even adhering to the very basic

Islamic teachings that would be upheld by Sharia law?

One of the most important Islams,

Muhammad, fled from Mecca to Medina.

This is on the migration.

When Muhammad...

I mean,

after all, these

are their

Muslim

brothers

and

national interests.

However, Saudi Arabia has graciously offered Germany funds to build 200

mosques all over Germany to provide for all these refugees.

So they have no problem giving up the money to build

mosques.

They do not want any of these migrants in their borders with them.

Yeah, I would say.

In your opinion, I don't know how much knowledge you have about percentages,

but what is your view of how...

What percentage of these migrants are, in fact, merely

trying to spread Islam and coming under the guise of being persecuted falsely?

Well, I would

say that in

Islam,

migration

is

permitted to

Muslims

in the

Qur

'an.

And so if they're going to migrate, the Qur 'an says they must migrate with the intention of spreading the religion

of Allah and his messenger.

So I would say that...

I mean, I don't have the exact figures here, but I would say that Muslims, if they are true to

their faith, they do

jihad,

and jihad

doesn't

mean that

doing so

is down.

Well, you could discuss it right now, if you'd like.

Okay, okay, very good.

In Islam, Muhammad laid down three peaceful

days.

He taught, when you're in the minorities, to teach Islam as

peace and to give them all... but that's only supposed

to

demand to

provide... using

Western

laws

strong enough that they can take over,

basically, in

believing... or the Kafir, the Qur 'an calls them the Kafir, the unbelieving government.

And this is why, when you think about it, Chris, the birth rate among Muslim

families, or simple mathematics,

you see that the face of Europe is going to change dramatically.

So the demographics are definitely going to change, and Europe will become predominantly Muslim.

So this is, right now, specifically Germany that's being flooded with migrants, or are there other areas?

There are other areas, but Germany has received the bulk of these

migrants.

We just have a new

election up here, but he wants to bring in about 25 ,000 migrants into Canada.

I know President Obama has been talking about bringing thousands of migrants into the United States, as

well.

So I have nothing against migration.

You see, Chris, when my parents came here, they

integrated with society, and they paid their taxes, and so forth.

And what's happening in many cases is a lot of these migrants are not integrating into society.

I'd like to announce our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, with a question for Dr. Tony Costa.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnsen, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

If you have a question on the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe,

or if you have a general question on Islam as well, we'll accept that in addition to

the specific topic that we have at hand.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please include your first name at least, the city and state where you live, and the country where you live

if you reside outside of the United States.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Now, is there evidence that any of these migrants

are genuine victims of persecution?

Well, and those are mainly Yezidis, Christians, predominantly

Christians, in fact...

Like Coptic?

Coptic and Persian, that is, Christians are

most affected.

And just recently,

no longer

under...

Why are they

attacking

the divine

law for

finding a

Muslim?

Are there, I should say, areas of the UK that are like that?

There are some areas in the UK, smaller areas, where, yes, some Muslims were trying to

do that.

What they were

doing...

In other

cases,

the

idea

here...

We're going to be going to a station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Tony Costa about

Islam in general, or specifically about the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe,

our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And we ask that you please at least give your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the USA.

If you're calling about something that is personal or private or something that perhaps makes

you too nervous to identify yourself, you may remain anonymous.

But otherwise, please at least give us your first name and your location of residence.

And we're going to be right back after these messages.

So don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Dr. Tony Costa.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orns, and if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Tony Costa, who is on the

faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada, and we are discussing the migrant crisis

and the Islamic expansion in Europe.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisornsen at gmail .com, chrisornsen

at gmail .com.

I do want to thank Pastor Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge,

Massachusetts, for recommending my guest today.

And because of that, I'm going to give Pastor Gary a plug.

The website for Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts, is

sovereigngracema .org.

Sovereigngracema .org.

I'd also like to thank our good friends at Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts,

for being a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And Pastor Mark Lukens and the congregation view this program as being valuable enough to put

us on their monthly budget, and I want to thank them from the bottom of their heart, from the bottom of my

heart, for viewing us in this light and for supporting us and

encouraging us and enabling us to remain on the air with their financial help.

And Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts, can be found on the at

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And we once again thank you, Pastor Mark Lukens and Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts.

Tony, the migrant crisis that we are experiencing, are the

Muslims that are claiming, at least, that they are persecuted, what

specifically are they violating according to their own profession in

regard to Sharia law, if they're being persecuted?

Well, the

only

standard of

rebellion...

Now, obviously, we as Christians are supposed to be compassionate,

and when we hear of people who are being persecuted, even if they're not Christians, we

should have a heart of compassion for them.

How do you sift out those that are truly victims of this, and

those that are just terrorists in disguise, wolves in sheep's clothing?

Well,

it's

interesting.

The

other problem

here is that, as

you

just

rightly noted,

in England, in London,

when

I

went

down

there,

but

you'll

notice

that...

Do you know anything about the sect of Islam? I may be mispronouncing it, but

Ahmadiyya?

Yeah.

Ahmadis, I think they're also called.

I understand that they are genuinely a peaceful sect because they believe that their

Messiah has come and done away with all

acts of violence that are commanded in the Quran and the Hadith.

Right.

The problem with

the

Ahmadiyya

is they

claim that he is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Now, who won't tell you that?

I'm sorry.

The Ahmadiyya is generally at us.

Oh, but they do secretly believe it, though.

They do it with them.

In one of my debates, we have one of the imams on video openly admitting

that he is the second coming, Mirza

Ghulam Ahmad.

However, and that is

taboo in Islamic

teaching,

the

Quran

says...

Now, are any of those involved in the migrant crisis Ahmadiyya?

Yes.

A million Muslims

in Yemen said Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe, not

without conflict.

He said...

Now, was he really a fundamentalist Muslim Qaddafi?

That he did truly believe.

He claimed that he believed in the expansion of Islam.

In fact, even...

But he

wasn't...

The

idea is

that...

The idea

of

Islam

is that...

Now, Saddam Hussein, on the other hand, he was clearly just a nominal Muslim, wasn't he?

Yes.

He would have been considered a nominal Muslim, but interestingly enough...

That's what I've heard, yes, by missionaries.

Absolutely.

They lived

amongst these

nominal

Muslims.

Now, Adin -e -Jad in Iran is a true orthodox Muslim, correct?

He

said that

the end will not come, that the

final arrow will...

And he said that even a tree will call out and say, Muslim, there's

a Jew hiding behind me.

The Erascatology...

Now, what would be the primary difference between the Shia and the Sunni that

has them killing each other?

The

primary

difference would

be the head of

the Islamic

State.

Shia means party of Ali.

And they believe that the family...

And they believe that Ali was...

Daggers in their eyes for each other.

Sunanullah

Ali, more prominently a Shia, believes that Mahdi,

Ken, Canadian, Westerner, doesn't understand that.

It sounds a lot like the battles that have gone on in organized crime.

I mean, it's because they're really not doctrinally different, are they?

In any significant way?

Doctrinally, there's just a few differences.

But fundamentally, on the fundamentals, they believe that there's only one God.

Right.

You

have to

evolve.

The Shias

don't

believe that.

They don't believe that the Quran is eternal in time.

Now, is there any way or place or

arena where the Sunni and the Shia and some of the other

sects of Islam put their differences aside

and actually unite in any significant way?

Go ahead.

Yes, they do.

Well, first of all, their hatred for Israel.

One

versus.

Uh -huh.

I just saw him interviewed recently again on TV.

Yes.

The Ayatollah Khomeini judicial decree.

Interestingly

enough, the

Muslim Brotherhood, he also...

Cat Stevens.

Yes. Cat Stevens.

You know,

he's now known as

YTV, openly killed.

Yeah, I remember that.

So there are times when Muslims will join together.

Even the condemnation of so -called Shias

will join forces in areas like that.

Now, when you say they join forces, are you actually...

I'm not talking about just with an ideology.

Are you meaning like side by side, comrades in arms, if you will?

Yes.

Yes.

I

mean, if a

Sunni

was to kill

Salman

Rushdie or the

FBI

creators

of the...

Now, what is her background?

She's Jewish.

She got involved...

Going back to Cat Stevens, what group, what sect is he a

part of?

He's Sunni. He's Sunni.

Because it's interesting that he publicly was

agreeing with the death sentence looming over the head of Salman Rushdie when he

was in hiding, and yet then we in the United States have him a part

of a concert after 9 -11 to

promote some kind of solidarity between Muslims and others.

I mean, that was pretty...

Pretty...

I mean, has he recanted any of those views or is he...

No, he has not recanted any of those views.

Yeah.

And he

simply

follows

Christianity, it's Christ.

We follow the imitatio.

And Mohammed, he would

routinely...

And he would...

And going back, I know that you mentioned...

Oh, I can't think of his name right now.

Well, perhaps I'll come back to that now because I was...

Not Qaddafi?

I'm sorry.

No, not Qaddafi.

I'll have to come back to it because his name slips my mind.

The militant Muslim figure in the 80s from

Iran.

Aytolah Khomeini?

Yeah, yes, yes, yes.

Was he Shia?

Aytolah Khomeini.

Was he also Shia?

Yes, he is.

Iran is predominantly...

So the Aytolah Khomeini...

Well, the original one is dead, though.

Yes.

And yeah, and he was also Shia, you're saying.

Right.

And what is the predominant makeup of Muslims here who have immigrated to the United States?

I say here, because you're Canadian.

Let me blend in North America.

The predominant makeup of Muslims in North America.

Yeah, they're predominantly Sunni.

Predominantly Sunni.

The predominant Shia.

And although they haven't reached the stage of violence yet, they've...

They're sort of bordering on their own little Sharia law there, aren't they?

Well, they

are

people.

They're God

-born Michigans.

But yet, if you notice the media, the media running around

Christian fakers and making it a national...

And basically, the LGBT community is

not so much on Islam.

Well, it could be that they're terrified for their lives.

Yeah, yeah, because ISIS has been throwing them off, you know, throwing them off.

If you have members of the LGBT...

And yet, Israel...

We're going to be going to another station break before we start our second hour on

our interview with Dr. Tony Costa.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We do have a couple of listeners that have already emailed us and are waiting for you to address their questions.

The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please at least include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the U .S.

And please, unless it is a sensitive area where you

insist on remaining anonymous, we ask if you please at least give your first name.

But we understand if you request to remain anonymous, we will respect your wishes.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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This is Chris Arnzen.

If you've just tuned us in, our guest today for the last hour has been Dr. Tony Costa

of Toronto Baptist Seminary, and we are continuing our discussion with him about

the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen

at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

I just wanted to highlight a few upcoming broadcasts in the near future

that we're going to be having on Iron, Sharp, and Zion.

This coming Monday, October 26th, we have two former Muslims on.

The first hour, we're going to have Thabiti Anyabwile, and he is going

to be discussing reviving the black church.

Thabiti Anyabwile is an African -American who was raised in a Christian home and was a

convert to Islam, and then later, by God's mercy,

became a born -again believer in Christ and now professes the faith that

he once knew as a child in Jesus Christ as his Lord, God, and Savior.

I'm looking forward to having Thabiti back on the program.

He had been a guest several times on the old Iron, Sharp, and Zion, and this is the first time he's

been on the all -new Iron, Sharp, and Zion, so we're looking forward to that.

We also have, right after Thabiti on Monday, from 5 to 6 p .m.,

we have Kareem Samshi Basha, who is also a former Muslim.

He was actually raised in a Muslim home and, by Christ's mercy, is now a born -again

believer in Jesus Christ, and we're going to be hearing about his remarkable testimony,

which is chronicled in a book that he has written, Paul and Me, and

that is published by Solid Ground Christian Books in Birmingham, Alabama.

And let me give a little plug to them again.

That's solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books

.com.

Also, on the same theme that we're addressing, Islam,

we have on November 9th, which is a Monday, we have Gordon Nichol for the very first time

on Iron, Sharp, and Zion.

He is going to be discussing his book, The Gentle Answer to the Muslim Accusation of

Biblical Falsification.

And our guest today said he is familiar with Gordon Nichol, and I hope that you could join us

for that program.

And I have a heads -up for you.

We are going to be giving away copies of that book on November 9th, The Gentle

Answer by Gordon Nichol, but we're only giving them away to people who are serious about

evangelizing Muslims, people who are pastors or they are in

some kind of a ministry where they are actively involved in

evangelizing Muslims.

This is far too valuable a book to give away to anyone that may have it just gathering dust

on a shelf or being used as a coaster on a coffee table.

So, if you are seriously and actively involved in

Christian evangelizing Muslims, the

Christian evangelizing of Muslims, please make sure you mark on your calendar

that Monday, November 9th, we are going to be interviewing Gordon Nichol and giving

away his book.

And once again, our email address here, for

those of you who wish to ask a question of our guest today, Dr. Tony Costa is chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Harrison,

who asks, I know that your guest is Canadian, and I'm not sure how

familiar he is with our president, Barack Obama, but many have accused

Mr. Obama of being secretly Muslim and I don't

understand how that could wash knowing of his overtly liberal policies

and beliefs that appear to radically contradict Islam.

So, that would be a question for you, Dr. Costa, if you care to comment.

Yes,

well,

Barack

Obama was,

the

issue here is,

and I'm not getting, I'm not going to go into the debate whether or not he was an American, he had an American birth certificate or not, or

whether he was a Muslim or not, because he was definitely born Muslim.

He speaks very highly of Islam.

In fact, when he was in Al -Azhar University in Cairo, which is considered the Vatican of Islam,

he said Islam gave us science, Islam gave us mathematics, Islam gave us all these wonderful things

and inventions, a lot of which can be disputed.

But it's interesting, whenever Mr. Obama has spoken about the Bible or Christianity, he seems

to speak of the Bible disparagingly.

He has also spoken

against, instead of dealing with terrorism straight on, he's

one of those, you know, well, Christians had the crusades, so there's violence in every religion.

He refuses to call the Port Hood massacre a terrorist act.

He referred to it as a workplace violence, where it was clearly terrorist in content.

The assailant was crying out, Allah Akbar, and while he was killing the servicemen.

But at the same time, what type of Christianity does Mr. Obama hold to?

I mean, he was part of Jeremy Wright's church, which was subscribed to a black

liberation theology, and he is famous for saying in one of his sermons,

he said, not for God to bless America, he actually said, and excuse my language, he said, God damn America.

So, again, what type of a Christian would that be?

So I'm not going to say whether or not he's a Muslim, he seems to be very, he

speaks very highly about, but he almost seems reticent

to use the word terrorism.

Yeah, that is an irony because he is liberal.

I mean, he's in favor of same -sex marriage and all these things that Muslims find

abhorrent.

And I'm going to go back to the homosexual issue in a minute, though, because there seems to be quite an

ironic thing going on in Islam in regard to that.

But there are also other liberals that have, for some reason,

praised Islam while simultaneously

blasting Christianity and slandering it and mocking it.

If I could just add this, Chris, if I can, when the Chattanooga...

Now, why do you think that is, other than the fact that he may be secretly Muslim,

why would liberals of any sort do that?

Because they do.

Liberals who would be the first to have the sword against their throats if they were living in

a nation under Sharia law for all kinds of insane things that liberals believe in and practice.

Why?

What is the story behind that in your opinion?

I think,

bottom line,

we see

a resistance

to

Christianity

attacking churches, and there seems to be an anti -Christian sentiment in America.

At the same time, it's considered one of the most pious nations on the earth.

They have an

unlimited number of...

Bill Maher, I think, is the only liberal fellow who's had the guts to come out and actually call

Islam what it is.

And I think Richard Dawkins recently was on the show, and Richard Dawkins

now is...

Right.

And...

Yeah, he's because of his disdain for all religion.

Yes, I think there's a fear factor too.

I think a lot of these...

Going back to the issue of homosexuality, I have heard from a number of people that seem to be very

credible, including one that was in the military, who was specifically, during the Gulf

War, was trained...

Part of the training was that they said that Muslims, much to the surprise of

many Westerners, unmarried young Muslim men do practice homosexuality,

and it's almost winked at, and there's a blind eye turned to it

until someone gets married.

And I wanted you to sift through fact from fiction in this

topic.

Also, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie The Kite Runner, but it seemed that male

pedophilia involving young boys who are forced to dress up like

girls and dance and so forth...

Yeah.

...was rampant even among the Taliban and people involved in the most strict form

of Islam.

Yes.

And also, in

Pakistan,

you have a very high rate of

death

penalty.

But the interesting thing here is that in Islam, under Sharia law,

is also punished by death.

But for some strange reason, they treat these minors as...

In Afghanistan, there was a documentary done in 2010 called The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan.

It does go on.

Do you think a lot of it could be because of the misogyny of Islam?

They would be much more willing and eager to execute women involving

before sexual activity outside of marriage, but then they don't...

Under Sharia law,

if a woman...

There's the issue of honor killings in Islam, 91%.

And is there any truth to the fact that the American military, especially in Afghanistan, seems to

be fond of sporting beards as to not give off the

false impression that they're homosexual?

That I've not heard.

Okay.

We do have a listener, Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know what sect of Islam do you think poses the greatest threat

on the globe?

They are the

majority

today.

There are...

In Iran,

nothing

was...

Number one, all the

attacks in the United States.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, who asks, are

those of other Islamic sects outside of Sunni who immigrate to the United States,

more commonly prone to join Sunni mosques because of the lack

of threat of violence here?

And I'm assuming our listener would, in his question, include Canada, because that's where you're from.

Yeah, well, I'm assuming that the question involves the fact that there are more Sunnis in America and

North America in general.

And since there might not be a mosque of a different sect that's readily available to

another sect.

Yeah, they

usually

try to

stick...

And just to get it out of the way, in case somebody's wondering, we did do a whole program recently, a two -hour

program on the nation of Islam.

That is not an Islamic religion at all.

It's a cult that just claims some adherence to...

It's under...

Like some kind of a mad scientist or something, correct?

Yeah, we're the

product of the white race.

Some people think I'm just making...

And they are clearly not orthodox Muslims, for lack of a better term,

because they are violating shirk.

By identifying God or Allah as a black man, they are violating the most

serious prohibition in their religion, correct?

That's right.

And they also believe that Wallace Hart, who...

Right, so you wonder if they really even read the Quran, although they claim some adherence to it.

I mean, how could they overlook that prohibition in the Quran

about shirk?

Right, it's simply reinterpreted by us.

Yes, and it is interesting.

This has come up before on this program and then some of the debates that I've organized with Dr. James White.

But it is interesting how the Quran

repudiates the Trinity and yet defines it in a way that no

Christian has ever defined it.

Right.

Including Mary as a part of the Godhead.

Right, right.

It

doesn't

have the

literal,

vulgar interpretation of...

And we're going to be going to our final break now.

And this is your final opportunity to email us a question for Dr. Tony Costa on Islam or

more in particular the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, we have had Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary

on our program today discussing the migrant crisis and Islamic expansion in Europe.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, you've only got about 20 minutes to do so.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

We do have another listener here in Pennsylvania.

We have Titus, who is in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania,

asking, other than setting up theocracies in

different parts of the world that are not Muslim, how can we stop the

Islamic spread throughout Europe and even North America and elsewhere?

Well, we have

to,

Senators

and

so

forth, I think that they have to be made aware

that, if you

remember, we're

saying that not to be a

Muslim should be a law.

And Ben Carson was

saying that

he did not

want.

A Muslim to be president of the United States.

Right.

And he didn't say that.

I don't believe that it was against the laws of America, the United States.

But I don't want a Muslim to be president of the United States either.

And I think that anybody but a strict Muslim

should not find anything bizarre or hateful or bigoted in that at all.

No, not at all.

Not at all, because...

Yes, and my friend, Pastor David Dykstra,

he wrote a book a number of years ago called Yearning to Breathe

Free, Thoughts on Immigration, Islam and Freedom.

And the title of the book comes from the Emma Lazarus poem on the

base of the Statue of Liberty monument.

And the actual poem, what everybody always

refers to when they are saying, oh, we can't discriminate against people's religious beliefs

when they come here, that's against the very basis of

our concept of freedom and freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Well, it's interesting that the poem at the base of our Statue of Liberty's

monument, National Monument, it says, with silent lips,

cries she, with silent lips, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses,

yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

send these, the homeless, tempest -tosed to me.

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Now, Muslims, if they are true and faithful to the Koran and the Hadith,

they are not yearning to breathe free.

No, you see, Chris,.

This all comes back to the Islamic world view.

The

paradigm in

it is

master -slave.

A master -slave holds abject authority.

The idea is not

that of Christianity.

You'll notice the paradigm, but

we really

cannot

equal hell

with men.

So it's a very different paradigm.

You have debated Muslims.

You have interacted with Muslims that truly believe that the

Koran is from Allah and they truly believe in the teachings of the Hadith.

Do you believe that these folks, well, first let me ask you, what percentage of them,

if any, reveal openly a solidarity with the

terrorists of the world, ISIS and so on?

And if they do not, if they claim some kind of abhorrence

or opposition to that, do you believe it is genuine?

And if so, how could they adhere faithfully to the Koran and the

Hadith and yet oppose these things?

Well, I'm hearing a lot in the media about moderate Muslims.

In terms of

the Muslims

that I've

debated,

some of them have been quiet about it.

Some of them seem to not want to touch the subject.

Others, there's one in particular who seems to want to revise Islam or even

sanitize it.

He claims that the Hadith cannot really be trusted.

The odd

thing is the

Qiyam.

Now, that's not to say, Chris, that there are not...

Yeah, how could you distrust the Hadith and be truly representative of Islam?

Are you speaking of the Koran -only group, which is...

Well, I'm speaking of a Sunni Muslim.

Traditionally, Sunni and Shia Islam have always affirmed,

only second to the Koran.

Yes, I don't know if you're familiar with Hamza Abdul Malik.

Yes.

He was the very first Muslim that Dr. James R. White ever debated, that I arranged the

debate here on Long Island.

And Hamza, at the time, was a Sunni and has since become a Qur 'ani,

which he only believes in the Koran and not the Hadith, which makes sense.

That's right.

And he would be considered heretical, by means of Islam, for doing that.

Yes.

It was interesting that even the Ahmadiyya imam that I had lunch with,

he thought that that was an unattainable view of Islam.

And that's because, Chris, that you're supposed to know,

have any biographical of what he did.

What he did

is a five

times five.

And in fact, Hamza doesn't do a lot of those things that he used to do.

A very, very nice man.

I really enjoy speaking with him.

And he's a very friendly guy.

He has come to many of James White's debates, even with Roman Catholics and so on.

So we can only pray for him to come to the truth of Christ.

I really want to make sure that before we run out of time, that you really unburden your heart

and let our listeners know precisely what you want most etched on their hearts and minds

before they leave the show today.

So speak freely with issues that you really want to address and hammer

down.

Right.

Well,

first of all,

to Christ.

I

believe

that ISIS,

Islam, we

have to

deal with the

fact,

I think we also

have our reactions to the

human being.

It does have a supremacist ideology.

Islam

has

a...

However, we

must

not

lose

sight

of...

Amen.

And if you could also let us know, I know that individuals

are individuals, and they vary from person to person in the way that you should approach

them with the gospel and so on.

But as far as opening comments to spark conversation with

Muslims, what would you suggest if you're sitting and having lunch with a colleague or

a neighbor or someone?

Perhaps you just noticed that they may have a Qur 'an in a

restaurant or something that makes them stand out that you would see them as possibly being Muslim wearing a

kufi or something.

Well, the

Qur

'an

gives

no

Muslim

who's been

mentioned

25 times.

The Qur

'an, Jesus, why is he

called the word of God 25 times?

These are

great, the idea that

Jesus is corrected on this, because

they think that we as Christians believe that God sexually procreated Jesus through Mary.

They think that we believe in three gods, and the Qur 'an says Christians are teaching polytheism.

And these are great opportunities to clarify what we actually believe.

So they actually believe as the Mormons believe?

They believe that Christians view the conception of Christ in the same way that the

Mormons view that?

That's correct.

It was Brigham Young

who taught

Muslims.

Right, and most Mormons today, especially young ones, have never heard that either.

No, they haven't.

Yes.

But the Muslims do believe,

obviously.

They deny his deity, but they believe in his virgin birth, do they not?

Absolutely, but we

have to be clear

that Jesus

was the word from

a gospel.

Right.

Created by God's spoken word.

And it is ironic that they believe Muhammad to be the better prophet,

and yet they admit that Muhammad had sinned, they admit that Muhammad was not

born of a virgin, they do teach that Jesus was sinless, born of a virgin,

and is the Messiah, correct?

Yes.

And they don't believe in his resurrection because they don't believe he died.

That's right.

So no death, no

resurrection.

He will live for 40 years, he

will die, and...

Oh wow, that's kind of strange, after all that, Jesus is going to die.

Well, because he never died, you see?

Yeah, right, right.

He was a jihadi, and eventually he would die.

Now, I know that Muslims are by nature vehemently opposed to

idolatry, but I have heard that sometimes Muslims can be seen at

like Medjugorje and places like that.

Do you know of that kind of a thing happening?

Yeah, it's not unusual.

There are various superstitions of the

evil eye, you know, the Italian speaker

of the Malayoki.

Right.

And the last two chapters of the

Qur 'an

is that

when they do their pilgrimage, the Hajj,

in the corner of the mosque,

at the end of the Hajj,

and then they'll go

opposite.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, it's cursed, I

mean, we don't worship the Qur 'an unless you see the

conclusion

of the

Hajj, the

pilgrimage.

Now, is that all Islamic sects, or any opposed to that?

All Muslims perform the Hajj.

So they're all there together, then?

Yes, yes, but they're all dressed the same.

Now, I don't know, I know that you're on the faculty of Toronto Baptist Seminary, but I never asked you if you

were a cessationist or a continuous regarding the sign gifts and that kind of thing.

But I was wondering what you make of the number of Muslim

converts to Christianity that claim a vision of some kind as a part of their

transformation.

Well, I have met Christians personally here in Toronto,

and in all

honesty,

they're growing

in

Christ.

Yes, when I called somebody who was hosting a program on the Trinity Channel,

which I think you're probably familiar with.

I've been on there.

I've been on there as well.

Right, yes, and the Reformed Baptist host said that in his experience, most of the

converts, because he is a cessationist just as I am, and he said that most of the converts that he is aware of that had a

vision involved do not see visions after their conversion ever again.

It's not like an ongoing thing.

That's what I've also...

Yes, that wouldn't be a classical charismatics or Pentecostal.

No, no, and the men that

I...

And if you could, if you would care to share any contact information in the event that somebody wants to have you speak

at their church or what have you.

Well, my website is TonyCosta.

Well, I thank you so much for being a part of our broadcast today.

I look forward to having you back very soon, and I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus

Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless, and we hope that you tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpens Iron.