The Problem of Evil Just Got CRUSHED by John Lennox — Here’s How

This is why it's helpful for debaters to answer the question of the problem of evil. Alex O 'Connor sat with John Lennox, who has debated Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer, and others, and brought up the problem of evil.

Now, this is usually when Christians tense up and they don't know how to respond. But watch what happens when Lennox gives his answer, because it's a masterclass on how to respond when you're faced with the same challenge.

I've started to think about that fact, because as a mathematician, you get problems that people have attacked for centuries and have gotten nowhere. And the way mathematicians react to that is that they say, perhaps we're asking the wrong question.

Why Cordiality Matters in Christian Apologetics

Wait a second. What's Lennox doing? How is avoiding the answer the right answer? We're going to get into that, and I'm going to show you why this is the best response to the problem of evil. So let's get right into it.

Welcome to Wise Disciple. My name is Nate Sala, and I'm helping you become the effective Christian that you are meant to be. Before doing this ministry full time, I was a pastor and a debate teacher. And so it's from that unique intersection that I make these videos.

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Well, for what it's worth, I think my beliefs are I'm not a Christian, and that has a lot to do with my lack of trust in the reliability of not so much the Gospels as a whole, but particularly things like the resurrection narratives.

But this team of religion is bad and evil and corrupting of thought, I'm not on that boat.

Yes, nor am I.

And I'm also not on the boat of saying that God doesn't exist and religion is false. I'm more of an agnostic these days, but I tend to take a more critical tone because that's just sort of who I am and what I do.

But I think I remain quite thoroughly agnostic, which is one of the reasons it's quite difficult to interrogate my beliefs, because there are so few of them that are solidly held. But one of them would be, for example, so there's the reliability of Scripture, but when you're talking about theism as opposed to Christianity, one of them really is the problem of evil, which we haven't spoken about at all today except for that brief mention in the evolutionary tract.

So there are a couple of points here to take note of because, like I said, what Lennox is about to do is a masterclass in the response to the problem of evil. But it's not just what he's about to say, it's what he's already been doing.

So I'm noting the timestamp below here. I don't know if you can, I think it cuts off there on your end. These two have had a conversation for over an hour and a half. They've reached the point now where it's over an hour and a half of a much broader, longer conversation.

This is a conversation that has been cordial. It's been warm the whole time. There have been some great moments of affirmation and finding areas of agreement. Lennox has congratulated O 'Connor on his achievements and his ability to have great conversations.

And now, an hour and a half in, they're talking about a point of disagreement, which is the problem of evil. Now, why is this important? Actually, I'll explain this in a moment, but let's just see how this plays out.

When we're talking about evolution, I do find it mysterious and bewildering, especially in the context of evolution.

It's the hard question for any worldview.

One of the reasons why it actually comes up so little is because it almost feels trivial to bring up because it's the obvious point. It is the argument and it's been discussed ad nauseum. Well, I don't know if I can.

I think that might be a good topic for another time.

I think so too.

Ah, so, okay, that's interesting, right? Why does it seem like Lennox is almost trying to push the conversation off to another interview? You know what I mean? And it might be, I mean, multiple reasons here.

You know, their time is probably almost up. But one of the reasons I think that Lennox does this is because Lennox has been implicitly communicating to O 'Connor the whole entire time that they're comfortable together, right?

There is a comfortability between them and it's still there. So, in other words, what Lennox could have done, right? And what others like to do is they go, oh, man, oh, you want to talk about the problem of evil?

Okay, man, I've been waiting for this all day, baby.

Right.

And then, you know, they start leaning forward, rolling up sleeves and, you know what I mean? Growling like a caged tiger or something, you know. We've seen this happen before, but the point is Lennox is giving opposite energy.

He's saying, well, we can talk about this or it might be better to do it another time.

Right.

Which is to, again, show O 'Connor, hey, there is a cordiality here. There is a comfortability here that you and I have and we're not going to lose that.

Right.

Now, this is crucial because one of the things that you need to do as someone who has a Christian worldview and you want to engage others on behalf of Christ. Right. Those who have different beliefs than you.

You need to do some work to bring down the barriers and the prejudices that people have against you. Think about that. You know, the moment that someone hears that you believe in the Christian God, you are very often immediately categorized and put into these kinds of.

Someone's like mental boxes that people have in their minds about Christians and Christianity.

You know what I mean?

These types of boxes act as prejudicial barriers between you and them. And let's face it, I mean, if you're dealing with an atheist or a skeptic, particularly online, these types of folks have a very low view of Christians and Christianity.

Right. And so these barriers can be significant obstacles to overcome. Depending on who you're talking to. And so then the question is, well, OK, what then is the quickest, fastest way to bring down these prejudicial barriers?

And the answer is spending time with a person and getting to know them, getting into their lives, putting the focus on them, letting them talk, then having your moment to say a few things and then have this discourse back and forth.

Right.

This is exactly what Lennox has been doing with O 'Connor. And that's what I mean. So if I mean, if you're somebody who wants to take notes, right, look at how Lennox comes across in the entire conversation.

He does not push to immediately clash with O 'Connor. He's incredibly cordial. And now an hour and a half into it, he's about to offer something for O 'Connor to think about. And guess what? When he says it, it's going to be received way better than if Lennox had immediately clashed in the first three minutes.

Right. Immediately been aggressive.

We'll say one thing about it, because whenever this comes up, it often comes up in terms whether people who are discussing it realize it or not, but go back a long way to people like Lucretius and so on.

Surely a good God and all powerful God would, should, etc. etc. do this or that. And I've reflected on that a lot because we've all had endless arguments like that, that have never come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Reframing the Problem of Evil Around Human Suffering

Okay.

Notice what Lennox is doing now.

Right.

We're just, we're just walking through this together. Lennox is framing the discussion by zooming way out. And now he's noting the history of human thought with regard to the problem of evil. This is a brilliant move.

Okay.

Now, why is that? Well, because the problem of evil is so incredibly personal, isn't it? It's, it's one of those categories in theology and philosophy where it cuts deep into people's personal experiences.

Just about everyone, you know, including myself, has experienced pain, loss, and suffering at some point in their lives, or they know somebody who has, right? Or if they haven't gone through it, they will at some point in their lives.

You know, that's why O 'Connor said, this is the argument, right? It's the question that has persisted for so long. It's this thing, the problem of evil. But what Lennox is doing right now is he's zooming out and he's framing the discussion around how all people have thought about this.

So that his logical answer to the problem of evil will not be taken personally. And the reason he's doing that is because the problem of evil has two components to it. It has a logical component. There is a logical answer.

And then there is an emotional component. And we have to, as Christians, respect both of these components, right? That's why it's very often difficult to broach this topic with a lot of folks, you know?

And it's because emotions are much more wrapped up in this kind of topic than with any other. And things get especially worse when some people try to lead off with some kind of logical answer to the problem of evil when they don't know how to read the room.

And they don't know how to read people and observe that sometimes people don't want to hear a logical answer because they're currently suffering. And so this is what Lennox decides to do. He zooms way out in order to make this less personal.

And that sets the stage for the logical answer to the problem. This is a master class move, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you can appreciate this. You know, it's masterful in helping people think through this issue because all this reframing is going to lead to a powerful moment.

Watch this.

And I've started to think about that fact because as a mathematician, you get problems that people have attacked for centuries and have got nowhere. And the way mathematicians react to that is that they say perhaps we're asking the wrong question.

And I think I find that helpful in the following way. And I'll be brief. It's this, that what faces everybody is a mixed picture. I call it beauty and bombs. In other words, we look at the world, we see some beautiful things and we see some horrible things, especially these days.

And any worldview has got to take that into account. That is a fact. And we can argue as long as we like about the theoretical side. If God is good and all powerful, why this? Why that? Why the other?

And we never come to a satisfactory answer. So I propose another question, equally difficult, but I think it gets us a bit further. Granted that it's like that, is there any evidence anywhere that there is a God who understands it?

And to such an extent that I can feel, not that I've got an answer, but that I can see there's a possibility of coming to some peace about it.

The Cross as God Entering Human Suffering

So, did you catch what just happened? What Lennox is telling O 'Connor is, the question of the problem of evil is not the right question to ask.

Why?

Well, because there are flawed presuppositions that go into the questions surrounding the problem of evil. Think about that. And because people have these presuppositions, you know, these assumptions, they are confused and they despair over the problem of evil.

By the way, these are people outside of the church and also people inside of the church as well. Some of these presuppositions sound like this. Our lives should never entail suffering, ever. In other words, we should go our entire lives having never suffered, not even one time.

Also, there can be no purpose for suffering. Okay, can you see that? You know, so even with it, I'm sure there's more here, but even with those two operating assumptions, I'm going to have a real problem should things go wrong in my life.

You know what I mean? But that's the thing. What if those presuppositions are incorrect? What if it's not the case that our lives in this world should be some kind of hedonistic, utilitarian paradise where there's no pain and suffering at all?

What if we instead factored into this life pain and suffering? We just understood that it's part and parcel of our experience today. We understand this and we live our lives assuming that. What then happens to what's called the problem of evil?

And I think the answer is it forces us to change our questions. Right? Doesn't that make sense? That's exactly what Lennox is doing now for O 'Connor. He's helping O 'Connor reframe the issues so that he can gain some insight.

And that's precisely how you should approach this issue as well.

The answer to that is that, yes, I think there is. And it's the fact that the God presented in the Christian Gospels is a God who in that sense has suffered. Because the central claim of Christianity is that God became human and that Christ is God.

So, crudely put, what is God doing on a cross? Well, one thing it certainly shows me is that God has not remained distant from human suffering but has become part of it. And the very interesting thing, Alex, is that in 2011, I arrived in New Zealand three days after the earthquake.

And I had to meet people who were really going through grief and so on. And I talked in those terms. And I'll never forget when I'd finished talking to the largest congregation this particular place has ever seen, I think.

There was a little piece of paper pushed into my hand that said, I lost my husband in the earthquake. And what you said about the cross has given me the first glimmer of hope.

Hmm. Now, yeah.

So, I don't know if you caught this, but Linux is dropping pearls right now, okay? Because think about this. How can people truly have hope, you know? The Bible has something to say about this. The Bible actually says that hope derives from trusting in God's purposes.

Watch this. Hebrews 6, verse 17 says,. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath. So that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the, here it is, hope set before us.

What is the author saying here? They're saying hope is built upon not just God. I mean, you know, it is built upon God, but it's actually built upon God's promises. You know, this isn't the only place where the Bible teaches this, but when this really starts to sink in for us, we can recognize that there is actually a purpose for suffering.

That the worst kinds of evil that have taken place still have a purpose in the world that God has made. It's not wasted. There is nothing wasted in the economy of God, as it turns out. You know, that's how Romans 8 can say in all things, both good and evil, right?

God is working for good. That's how God's people can have hope. The thing is, like, I honestly do not know how non-believers can hold on to a hope in a world with no God.

Truly.

Like, wouldn't they just have to pretend that there is some kind of purpose in a purposeless universe? You know, didn't I? There was a reaction that I did a little bit ago with Jordan Peterson, and there was an academic lady named Susan Blackmore or something like that.

And this issue came up there as well, right? But the bottom line is, non-believers have to live inconsistently with their own worldview. If God is not real, doesn't exist, right? I mean, that seems to me to be the only way for a non-believer to have hope in the midst of suffering.

And yet they would be displaying a blind faith, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they not? Which is ironically what many of them attribute to us, right?

And it ties together something you said just a few minutes ago, which I'd love to discuss in detail, but it would have to be another time. If the cross were the end, we'd never have heard of Jesus. And so for me, the resurrection becomes the central thing.

And it's what the apostles preached. It's what Jesus claimed. It's evidence that He was who He claimed to be. And it has those two dimensions. It has the intellectual dimension. How can you possibly believe that Jesus rose from the dead when we know the laws of nature?

Hume.

And secondly, what is the evidence in terms of personal experience of encounter with Christ who is alive?

The Resurrection, Hope, and the Apologetics Takeaway

Love it.

Here's why this is a masterclass from John Lennox. He took his time. He maintained a cordial rapport with O 'Connor. You know, or I guess a more Christian way of saying that is he maintained his witness.

Right?

Not only that, he zoomed out when appropriate and he reframed the issue so that he could approach the topic more logically, which I propose to you. The reason why that he was able to do this so well is probably just intuitively to like, he probably didn't even really think very long about it.

He just kind of did it right. The reason he was able to do that is because he's a great debater. This is how debate brain works, ladies and gentlemen.

You know what I mean?

And finally, he identified that the questions that a lot of us typically ask regarding the problem of evil, they're wrongheaded.

Why?

Because they're built on flawed presuppositions. Now, that last part there is sort of my addition to the discussion, but I don't think Lennox would disagree with me about that.

You know.

That's why this is a masterclass and you can do the same thing, too.

All right.

Not a long video for you. I just want to show it to you. Such a great example of what it looks like to just masterfully deal with the problem of evil.

All right.

Now it's your turn. What did you think about this discussion between Lennox and O 'Connor? How would you have responded to the problem of evil? Let me know in the comments below. I'd love to get your thoughts.

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