The Holy Spirit: God of Chaos and Confusion or Reverence and Order?

Justin Peters

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Does the Holy Spirit produce chaos and confusion or does he produce order and reverence and What exactly is a hyper cessationist?

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Welcome to the program. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

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I want to thank you so much for joining me today I'm going to be interviewing.

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Dr. Scott annual Scott is the executive vice president and editor -in -chief

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Of g3 ministries and he's written a book a new book that is out.

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Holy Spirit God of order It's an excellent book and I'm going to be asking him about that book

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He's written a number of other ones as well links down below in the description To all of the resources by Scott annual as well as g3

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They've got a ton of good stuff there including a little bit of my stuff So I hope that this will be edifying for you

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You know, it's very common to think it's most Evangelicals think when that when the

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Holy Spirit moves he produces ecstatic Dramatic things things out of the ordinary, but we're gonna see from dr.

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Annual that that just cannot be Substantiated by scripture. So I think this will be very helpful.

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It's an interesting interview. I enjoy doing it a lot Scott's a good guy He's a good friend of mine

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And we've been on a number of trips together preaching and teaching in some of the same places and even some overseas as well

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So without any further delay dear ones, here is my interview with dr.

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Scott annual Well Scott brother, thank you so much for joining us.

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How you doing today? Yeah Thank you so much for having me on doing well. Good to see you brother. Yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely. We've had the I've had the privilege of being with you at a number of different venues preaching venues and even overseas

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Number two and really enjoyed our time together and appreciate so much the work you are doing brother

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But give us a little bit of an introduction to yourself Yeah, so I am currently executive vice president and editor -in -chief of g3 ministries.

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And so Very glad to be part of this ministry helping to oversee administratively a lot and then very much involved in spearheading the production of content books and Resources and our g3 plus streaming app and all of that and so, you know

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Just so thankful to be able to help to provide resources for Christians and churches and families

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And then I'm also professor of pastoral theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas And so happy to have my foot still in the seminary world

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I taught at Southwestern Seminary for a decade prior to coming to g3 and so Happy to be continuing to train pastors through GBTS as well

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Excellent. Good deal. Good deal Well, you have written a book Scott and the title of it is

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God of order the Holy Spirit's work in the world I've heard John MacArthur say years ago that the

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Holy Spirit is the most maligned misunderstood member of the

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Trinity So talk to us a little bit about this book what what made you write it and generally what's it about?

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Yeah Yeah, I think I think dr. MacArthur's statement there is so correct and that that is part of what motivated me

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Years ago. I was at a conference and I heard a Heard a theologian make a statement that really stuck with me

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He said, you know when when most people think of the work of the Holy Spirit today they think in terms of Extraordinary something visible something flashy and almost to the point where many

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Christians assume that if the Holy Spirit Is actually working Then things are gonna be disorderly.

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That's sort of the perception. I think that many even non -charismatic

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Evangelicals sort of have and he made this statement and this this sort of really set me on the trajectory for this book

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He said he said I he said I haven't done it But I would wager if you were to work through the entirety of Scripture and look at every action attributed to the

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Holy Spirit You would find some Extraordinary actions, but most of what you would find is what we would refer to as as orderly and and I thought about that and I thought you know this this is something that I I need to do is is really thoroughly look at the work of the

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Holy Spirit as as Scripture portrays him and then I I taught a

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PhD seminar at Southwestern Seminary on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and And and decided to make that one of the early projects for the students

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I said I want you to go through the entirety of Scripture and catalog every action verb Attributed to the

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Holy Spirit and then group them together and then see, you know See what you come up with and based on that that research and pulling together that data

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You know my hypothesis, which I knew theologically but now had the kind of the raw biblical data came out exactly what

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I thought and that is that the Holy Spirit is is the is The person of the Godhead and this is sort of the central message of this book

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The Holy Spirit is this is the person of the Godhead who brings into order the purposes and plans of God When the

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Holy Spirit is at work and he is at work He has been at work since Genesis 1 1 and he continues to be actively at work today but when he is working what he is doing is he is bringing things into an orderliness and so even the

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Supernatural even the the things that we commonly think of in the Bible that were flashy that drew attention the miraculous

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Even those things were not ends in themselves But they actually served the greater purpose of bringing

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God's people and plan to order and so that that really was the kind of the impetus behind the book and what

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I really tried to demonstrate in in several different categories of how the

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Holy Spirit works as the scriptures present him is that it is always orderly and his purpose is always to bring

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God's people and God's plan to order Yeah, exactly. That's excellent.

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Excellent. And you're absolutely right when Evangelicals today think of the Holy Spirit, you know you

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They think of something that is decidedly disordered, you know where the Holy Spirit is You know, we we let

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I love that language. We let the Holy Spirit Have his will and way and that always ends up in in Chaos and disorder, but that's exactly the opposite of what the

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Holy Spirit is truly doing Right, and and this this perception is not new right?

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This is exactly what Paul Addresses in 1st Corinthians 14 right where it seems like the expectation of the

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Corinthian believers was exactly the same That if the Holy Spirit's working then, you know

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There's gonna be a lot of spontaneity and there's gonna be all this, you know All these things going on and and he says

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God is not a God of disorder God is a God of peace the the primary objective

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You know his his focus there is on court though The spirits work in corporate worship the primary objective of this worship service is for the edification of the body

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And that is what the Spirit is doing And so let all things be done decently and in order is the climax of that whole chapter a chapter in which

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The Holy Spirit was still giving, you know The miraculous sign gifts and things like that and even in that context

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I believe those miraculous sign gifts have ceased but even when the Spirit was giving the miraculous sign gifts

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He was still doing it in an orderly fashion Yeah, exactly exactly so we are we are

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I like to say I am a card -carrying cessationist So for those who that that term is widely misunderstood tell us briefly.

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What is a cessationist Scott? Yeah, the the cessation specifically refers to what

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I alluded to a moment ago and that is Certain gifts that were given by the Spirit of God that were signs that were miraculous sign gifts so prophecy the giving of divine revelation has ceased because the

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Word of God has been completed and Therefore is sufficient for every good work the gift of tongues was a sign that had a very specific function in The early church and that function has been satisfied that sign has been delivered that message has been

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Communicated and therefore that sign gift has ceased and then the same with healing healing was not performed

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Through the power of the Holy Spirit as an end unto itself It was a sign that confirmed the the messengers of God as they delivered his revelation

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And so very similarly to prophecy and tongues Now that the Word of God the canon of Scripture is closed and the

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Bible is sufficient that miraculous sign has ceased so cessationism refers specifically to the to the so the ceasing of the

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Spirit giving those miraculous sign gifts, right and God is no longer speaking in a direct quotable sense outside of Scripture, I want to ask you about that aspect a little bit because There are men that we would affirm as brothers such as Wayne Grudem Sam Storms and John Piper, you know

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These are men who have or with us on soteriology as far as God's sovereignty and salvation yet.

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They are Continuists and they're kind of the opposite side of that cessationist coin

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They believe that all of the spiritual gifts including the sign gifts the revelatory gifts

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Continue to be operative in the church today. Now you talk about this in your book, but these men would

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They would say that they affirm That the canon of Scripture is closed, but they also affirm that God still speaks

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Extra biblically outside of Scripture. Is that a tenable position? Yeah, I don't

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I don't believe so. I think they they have and I deal with this with this in the book they

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Thankfully, I'm grateful that they don't Fall into the more extreme position

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Which argues that God is still giving authoritative revelation in the same way that he did with Scripture that that revelation is on par with Scripture You know, there are some charismatics who believe that these men that you mentioned

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Thankfully don't believe that because they do believe that the canon of Scripture is closed But in order to reach their position in order to have both the canon is closed

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But prophecy continues what they end up doing is they create a a second category of prophecy, right?

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a New Testament category of prophecy in which prophecy can be fallible and in which it is not as authoritative as Scripture and I I've looked at their arguments

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I've studied their arguments at length probably Wayne Grudem has made some of the most thorough cases for this second form of prophecy among those individuals and He really has to do some exegetical gymnastics to get there.

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It's not a natural reading of the text Yeah to arrive at those conclusions There is nothing in the text of Scripture that would lead us to the conclusion that there is such a thing as fallible prophecy

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No when God speaks Then we ought to be able to attribute to that thus says the

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Lord. This is infallible this is authoritative and the same standards that the

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Old Testament prophets were held to and That was if if someone says the Lord says something and it doesn't come to pass

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They were to be stoned because they were proven to be false prophets is the same Standard that Paul sets for prophecy in first Corinthians 14.

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So I just don't see any Textual or even theological reason to accept a different form of prophecy in this church age

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And my fear is and and these men don't intend this but I think it is an unintended natural consequence

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That their view ends up undermining the sufficiency of Scripture Yeah, because the people who are persuaded by their arguments are then always wondering

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Why isn't God speaking to me? They're they're searching for. Yes. Yes a still small voice or some sort of extra biblical

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Communication from God about his will his you know, his secret will for them When the

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Bible never promises that the New Testament never directs us to seek after Something outside of Scripture and so, you know to people who would ask well, doesn't

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God have a will for me? How do I know God's will you know, I want to hold up the Word of God and say this is all that you need

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Yes God does have a will for you And if you submit yourself to the sufficient word, which is sufficient for every good work

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Paul says then you will and pray for wisdom. God will give us wisdom

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That is a gift that he promises He will give us you submit yourself to the word and pray that God will give you wisdom

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Then you will be guided by him through his word into his will for your life

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But the Word of God is sufficient for that yeah, amen that's what really what it all comes down to is whether or not

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God's Word is sufficient right and unfortunately on so many fronts we're losing that battle and You know this you mentioned this second tier of prophecy.

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They have to create a second tier level of Prophecy that's inferior.

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They would all acknowledge that Old Testament prophets were held to a standard of 100 % accuracy

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And if they ever misspoke and thus say it the Lord misspoke in that kind of way Then then they were a false teacher false prophet and the punishment was stoning a very severe punishment

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But when we read the New Testament, you know For example the book of Hebrews the whole theme of the book of Hebrews is

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Jesus is better, right? He's our better high priest instituted a better covenant offered his life as a better sacrifice

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He has a better name Everything is better in the New Testament Except apparently the gift of prophecy, right the gift of prophecy tanked

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Like it just doesn't make any sense. Does it right? No, and in fact Peter and second

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Peter makes exactly the opposite argument, you know He says that we have a more sure word right in in the

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New Testament We we do have what is better because now we have the completed Canon You know at various stages in God's Redemptive history he gave that he gave the revelation that was needed for that stage in the progress of his plan

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And that revelation was sufficient for that stage, but there was always something future coming right there

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There was always another Transition and then Christ came and then you had the period of the early church and and new revelation had to be given for that To be accomplished but now we can honestly say that we have the completion of The written

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Word of God and there will be nothing else given. There's nothing else needed Until Jesus himself comes again

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And so we we definitely have what is better because we have Christ who has come who has fulfilled all of those

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Old Testament Prophecies and then he through his Apostles gave us the final revelation that we needed for this age

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So that we have everything that we need we need for life and godliness until Until Jesus comes again, which is exactly what what

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Peter is arguing there He says pay attention to this because this is sufficient until the day dawns and he's referring to there the second coming of the

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Lord And so I think exactly what you said in reference to Hebrews is exactly right

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We have we have much better than then then the Old Covenant Including the revelation that we've been given and that has been inscripturated in the completed canon of Scripture.

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Yeah, that's right You know and I'll tell people it doesn't make any sense when you say well God still speaks outside of Scripture but it's not as authoritative as Scripture because If God is speaking

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God is speaking Right. He cannot speak less authoritatively on one occasion than he does on another

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So it just makes no sense. Um, talk to us a little bit about experiencing

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God Scott because to my own shame

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I Not only taught that I took that class, but I actually taught it Back in the day in the early 90s before I knew any better, but I think

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Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby has introduced charismatic theology into at least theoretically non charismatic churches

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Especially Southern Baptist churches couldn't talk to us a little bit about experiencing God. Yeah, absolutely.

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I agree completely I have sort of these categories in my mind, you know in terms of sort of the influence of Charismatic theology you have the the the extreme sort of mainstream

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Charismatics and then you have the the gentleman we talked about earlier who are or not the mainstream

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They're really the minority who are admittedly more careful and they're more Orthodox But as we as we discussed they do have problems and then we have those of us who are cessationists very firmly

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Holding to the cessation of the sign gifts and and very you know the sufficiency of Scripture and God speaks through his word and Then there's this very large group that you just alluded to and and that's what

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I've experienced as well Who they're they're not? Charismatics and they probably would even disagree with a

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Grudem and storms and sort of in terms of fallible prophecy but you still hear a lot of this language of God told me or God, you know

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Spoke to me or this assumption that God will give me some sort of impression or will you know in?

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Maybe not audibly, you know, I'm a cessationist So God's not gonna, you know speak to me in words, right, but God is still gonna communicate his will and I agree with you completely

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That that black of these experiencing God was a huge Influence especially among Baptists that created this really

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Middle kind of category That and you know My my area of scholarship and teaching for many years has been the area of worship and music

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And I would say along with black of these experiencing God the influx of charismatic music

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Into non charismatic churches, you know so churches who in their doctrinal confession or cessationist, but who because of the the exciting atmosphere that's created by Charismatic music have brought that in that also has been a significant influence that has

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Influenced and brought in charismatic theology Into too many many churches And what

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I often like to point out is you know, what what is more? Influential for a congregation the doctrinal statement that's on their church website or The music that's in their worship and the books that are being taught like black of these experiencing

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God, right? I think we all could could you know very quickly see well What's influencing them musically in their corporate worship and these studies on experiencing

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God? By black could be and other similar books that is having a far greater impact on the people in our churches

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Then you know a couple paragraphs about cessationism and a doctrinal statement and doctrinal statements are important Well, we've got to put those doctrinal statements into practice.

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Yeah, which includes the kinds of books that we're Advocating in our churches and the music that we're using in our worship.

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Yeah 100 % I can't tell you how many times I've seen a church teach against its own doctrinal statement

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Right. It's almost like they you know they get I think a lot of churches get kind of a standard doctrinal statement and they just copy and paste it on to their

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Website and and they've probably never even read it Or if they have they've it's been decades since they have but uh, yeah,

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I see churches teach Against their own doctrinal statement regularly in practice against their own doctrinal statement regularly

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But you know, you'd be hard -pressed to turn on Just about any popular

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Christian teacher Bible teacher male or female today and not hear language something like I Feel like the

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Lord wants us to do such -and -such I felt like the Lord was telling me to do this or that or I felt like the

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Lord wants me to tell you to do such and that Is that is that biblical language when you hear someone say

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I feel like the Lord is Trying to tell us such -and -such Right.

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Well, even how you frame that question, I think is exactly the right way to frame it Is it biblical language and the answer to that is no

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I think a lot of people they don't they don't mean to communicate maybe what they are communicating

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But we need we need to be using the language of Scripture How does Scripture describe the way that the

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Lord leads and guides us? How does Scripture? Describe the way that we

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That we you know obey the will of the Lord and are living in line with what he he wants us

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It never uses that kind of language It never tells us to seek that sort of thing

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What we find over and over again is your word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path

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Yes, God guides us right when we went we want to affirm that strongly God guides us

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God leads his children According to his will but in each of those he does it according to his word

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This is a this is a strong emphasis that I make in the book. You know, the Holy Spirit of God is

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Actively at work in the world today. Yes. He is actively at work Convicting sinners of sin.

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He is actively at work Performing the miracle of regeneration in in people's hearts.

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He is actively at work Sanctifying his people but every single one of those he does through his word.

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He doesn't do it apart from his word he doesn't magically convict people or magically regenerate people or magically sanctify people just sort of Without any connection to his word know that the

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Spirit and the Word are always connected He works through the word that he inspired to bring order to God's plan and God's people

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So I think Again, how you framed that is what we need to emphasize to people and encourage people use the language of Scripture when you're describing your

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Noble desire to be led by God to obey God's will that's that's a wonderful You know a desire that you have that's a biblical desire

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And so when you're describing it and when you're pursuing that make sure that you're also using

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The language of Scripture so that you yourself are not confused about what exactly you're pursuing and desiring and so that you're not

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Confusing to others as well as to what God is doing in your life, right? yeah, you know

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Paul told the Colossians let the Word of Christ richly dwell within you and The more we fill our minds with Scripture The more we will just kind of as a natural outflow of that Live a life of obedience to the commands of God and glorify him and so doing so, you know

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Yeah, I went with that with that text in particular I think it's instructive that the parallel passage in Ephesians chapter 5 is be filled with or by the

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Spirit I take that as by I think to parallel actually the Spirit is filling us with his word

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Those things go hand in hand to be filled by the Spirit is to let the Word of Christ richly dwell within us

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Those are parallel concepts. I'm glad you said that and unless I'm forgetting I don't think you and I've ever had that conversation, but I I take it as by the

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Spirit as well I'm really glad you said that because I think that so, you know

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Be filled with the Spirit is is kind of confusing because it's not like you go to bed and Wake up the next morning and you're a court low on the

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Holy Spirit. He doesn't seep out of our pores Right. I mean, it's not like the whole you know we have a

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Holy Spirit tank and it just kind of it's not like a gas tank, you know, and you've got a yeah, so so what does that mean and I agree with you that it's

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The Word of Christ Scripture is the content of the filling and the

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Holy Spirit is the agent Who does that filling correct? Exactly.

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Yep. Yep. This is what I argue my book The the preposition there the Greek preposition n can be translated by or with right

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So you've got to determine the meaning based on context and that's where I think it is really important to look at the parallel Texts and Ephesians or in Colossians chapter 3 both of those texts are saying very similar things to two different churches both of those texts say that it will be manifested through Singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

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They're very similar It's just Paul uses Different language in one and the other one is be filled by the

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Spirit The other one is let the Word of Christ richly dwell within you So I think when you pull those two together

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Then it becomes clear that the preposition should be by That the way that we are filled by the

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Spirit is by letting the Word of Christ richly dwell within us Yeah, again, those are really two sides of the same coin.

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There are two ways of describing the same thing I agree with you know the day the day we got saved

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We got all the Holy Spirit we're ever gonna have right, right, I mean The Lord gives the

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Spirit without measure. He doesn't he doesn't give us a You know a down payment on the

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Holy Spirit and then we get the rest of him later in some second blessing or something like Right, right.

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I think that's I think that's been very confusing for people. So, uh, I'm glad I'm glad that you brought that up Yeah, so, you know and as cessationist you said this a moment ago

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I Take a I take a backseat and I don't cede any ground in my pneumatology

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To charismatics, you know charismatics are constantly saying of us You don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

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You don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit or you think the Holy Spirit's dead I've even heard that but Nothing could be further from the truth.

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We as cessationist we affirm the Holy Spirit is constantly Working right?

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There's never a time. He's not working Right, right. Yeah, if the Holy Spirit were not working

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Nobody would ever be convicted by sin Nobody would ever be saved Christians would not be sanctified

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I mean all of the things that we expect God that we know that we that we believe that God is doing in the world

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Right now God is doing through his Holy Spirit He is actively at work.

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He is co -equal and co -eternal with God. We are not minimizing the Holy Spirit whatsoever But we we have to understand

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Properly how the Bible portrays the work of the Holy Spirit. That's our desire In fact,

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I would argue that we are bringing more glory to the Holy Spirit Because we are trying to emphasize what he has inspired his word to tell us about how he works

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It is not glorifying to the Holy Spirit to attribute to him or to expect work of him that he has not promised

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Or or described that he's going to do in his own word So we we are trying to give him the work.

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He deserves the same worship honor and glory as the Father and the Son These are three persons of one divine essence all equally

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God and and the Holy Spirit included and he is Absolutely actively at work.

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He is not dead You know those who charge the stationists of being sort of quasi deists or something like that Yeah, absolutely.

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Not God is actively at work in the world. I mean, he's actively at work Providentially that that alone is

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Amazing and without God's providence. Nothing would hold together So that in and of itself is non deist

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But God is also even directly actively working the Spirit of God is actively working in People's hearts to bring again to order the the

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Church of Jesus Christ to bring the elect to saving faith to have them united with Christ and his body in the church and to have them gifted to serve the

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Church and then sanctified to display the glory of Christ and to be a witness for him All of that is the present active work of the

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Holy Spirit, right? Yeah, and the Holy Spirit still does his work of Gifting.

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I mean every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father. It's so Scott let me ask you a little bit.

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There's been a term that's been thrown around in the last I don't know six seven months or so Some people who would claim to be at least close to our our theological orbits

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Sympathetic with us in some aspects of cessation ism, but they are they accuse us of being hyper cessation is like there's this huge threat to the church of hyper cessation ism and one individual in particular and he's kind of made a bit of a name for himself by casting this aspersion

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What is a hyper cessation is and are we one? Yeah Well from one point of view

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I Find this term, you know very similar to people who throw around the term hyper Calvinist and it usually just means anyone more

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Calvinistic than I am and And that I think in essence is how this term is being used

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Is someone who's more more cessation is than I am. I suppose there is there is a

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Category that truly would be hyper cessation is and that would be someone if there is anyone

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I've never met anyone, but if there is someone who actually says the Holy Spirit doesn't work at all

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He's just silent. God doesn't work at all. God's not doing anything I suppose, you know that would be rightly classified as a hyper cessation is but this this this

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Charge that's kind of, you know floating around again. It's typically just that we're more cessation is than The person who's using the term and what

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I find interesting is that the way? You know what this person then would define as cessation ism

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So if we're hyper cessation ism, then what is cessation ism? well, the way that cessation ism is defined then is almost identical to the position of Individuals like you described earlier

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Wayne Grudem Sam Storms, John Piper, etc, who would call themselves continuationists in fact as This sort of debate has been floating out there on the internet.

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It's been fascinating to me to see the people who are applauding the the charges of hyper cessation ism and it's all of these

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Middle -of -the -road kind of not maybe extreme charismatics, but more middle -of -the -road minority

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Cessationists who are all saying yes. Yes, we agree. Well, what does that tell you then about this definition of cessation ism?

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No, it's it's not Biblically founded and that's you know,

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I think ironic as well The argument usually is well, look at these look at these individuals in church history

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They didn't say things exactly how you know, John MacArthur says things or Justin Peters or Scott annual

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Well number one, my authority is not church history My authority is scripture right the arguments that are given for this

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What I would say is a new definition of cessation ism that that claims that we're hyper cessation ism

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The arguments are never rooted in scripture they're just rooted in perception of church history and perception of modern positions and Really the the the emphasis returns to the same thing and that is let's go to scripture

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What does scripture teach about the work of the Holy Spirit? That's what we want to affirm and believe and if we affirm what the

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Bible teaches that is in no way a hyper cessation ism Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm so glad you dealt with that because I I see this and it's it's it's irritating to me because he frames the arguments wrongly and he

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Describes mischaracterizes us in our position as well. I think it's very unhelpful

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Um So as a as a Cessationist we affirm the ongoing work of the

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Holy Spirit. I think I hear this a lot Scott and I'll pitch it off to you What do you say to those people who?

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Say, oh you're putting God in a box I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard that you're putting

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God in a box or you're saying you the Holy Spirit Can't do such -and -such. So when you hear that, what is your response?

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We're putting God in a box Well, first of all, God can do whatever he wants, you know

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The Holy Spirit could do whatever he wanted if he if he wanted to, you know do something

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Supernatural flashy, you know, whatever he wants to do. He can do I mean God, you know, God can heal somebody miraculously

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Yeah right now if he wants I mean, that's not that's not what we are claiming With cessationism that God would never or could never do any of those things

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Now we have to put a little bit of a caveat on that to say God will always Work in accordance with his nature and character and purposes so to say

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God can do anything really doesn't mean he can do anything because he can't do something that is outside his

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Nature character and purposes and then especially with that third category of purposes

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This is this is what I am seeking to address specifically in my book What is what has

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God told us? Is his purpose in this age and based on what

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God has told us about his own purpose in this age? Then what can we expect or how can we expect him to work?

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So it's not us putting him in a box. He can do whatever he wants, but he's going to do

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His work in accordance with the purpose that he has explained in his own word And so we're seeking simply to say this is what

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God has told us About his purpose during this age and how he's going to accomplish that purpose and our expectation then for how he works

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Is that he will work in line with that purpose that he has given us in the Word of God, right?

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absolutely, and You know, I've been traveling and preaching for 20 years now and by God's grace.

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I've been all over the world And I have as many people as I've met

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Scott and many churches I've been in I have heard probably probably three very credible testimonies of a genuine

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Miraculous healing a healing that has no explanation other than God Miraculously doing it.

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This is not a gradual Improvement of your physical condition, you know something that we would still give

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God credit for providentially But that I mean a healing that has no explanation

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So as cessation is I'm you know, we're fine with that if God chooses to heal praise the

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Lord But more times than not he chooses not to do those kinds of things

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But the allure the the promise that so many charismatics are making oh, it's always

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God's will for you to be healed Right as long as you have enough faith and it dangles this carrot this carrot of healing out in front of people and they're they're they're constantly searching after so and striving for something that scripture just doesn't promise us and it those kinds of false promises lead to a lot of Spiritual harm to people individually, right?

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Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the key. The key is not Does God or can

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God do miraculous, you know perform miraculous healings? Yes, of course he can and yes

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He may but the the more important issue is what should be our expectation?

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God can surprise us and do something unexpected whenever he wants. But what should we be seeking after?

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What should we be expecting? What should we be pursuing? And this is where I agree with you completely if if we are expecting miraculous healing if we're expecting to hear voices from heaven if we're expecting all of these things that the health and wealth prosperity charismatics promise

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Then that's what we're gonna constantly be seeking after To the undermining of the sufficiency of scripture.

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Yeah, but if we are expecting what we sometimes refer to as God working through the

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Ordinary means of grace the preaching of the word the reading of the word the singing of the word prayer

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Fellowship among believers the Lord's Supper and baptism local church involvement if we expect you know

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What God is working God is that's what we expect God is gonna work through those means because that's what he has promised in his word

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Then of course God can do whatever he wants and God might do something, you know, miraculous unexpected, but we won't be

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Constantly chasing after the latest flashy, you know sort of Allurement and we won't be tempted to undermine our trust in the sufficiency of scripture

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We ought to expect what the Bible promises and commands us to expect and then of course

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God can do whatever he pleases In the outworking of his plan. Yeah Absolutely.

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I heard John MacArthur say one time that The Dirty little secret of the charismatic movement is that charismatics are actually riddled with doubts

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Hmm, they they they have serious doubts about what they claim to believe

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Which is why they're constantly searching after the next buzz The next experience the next dream the next vision the next trip to heaven the next miracle worker

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It's like this this endless hamster wheel of searching after the next thing rather than just being content with God's providence in our lives and working through as you said the more natural means of grace

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God's ordained means of grace, but they're constantly going after this next buzz to try to Allay those doubts.

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Yeah, and I thought that was a very helpful insight and it's I Think he's absolutely right.

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That's a really good point. I like I like what you said to about us being content I mean, that's that is that is the issue

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We're especially, you know in our day and age There's there's a lack of contentment.

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There's always seeking after the next high the next, you know Emotional high maybe highs brought about by controlled substances in our culture and that kind of thing

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It's all around us and it's not surprising that it's invaded Christianity to where we're always looking for the next radical

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You know kind of thing and we need to be, you know We need to follow Paul's example that in whatever situation we find ourselves there

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We will be content and God has given us, you know, we refer to them as the ordinary means of grace

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Really not because they're ordinary. I mean God does Supernatural things through these means of grace sanctification conviction regeneration

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Well, they're just ordinary because we're talking about things like words and speaking and right, you know

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And and talking being with other people, but they're they're anything but ordinary in terms of the way

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God uses them But because they're not flashy because they're not, you know, they don't draw a lot of attention to themselves we don't want to be content with what

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God has given us and we need to be the most change and sanctification and growth will happen when we just Sink ourselves into the word and our church and Fellow believers and the preaching of God's Word when we are just content with those things and we work day by day by day

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God will progressively make us more and more holy He will progressively deepen our love for him and our relationship with him.

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That is growth that happens Progressively and slowly over time as we immerse ourselves in those means that God has given to us instead of seeking after these these spurts of you know of Supernatural extraordinary flashy growth that is often common in modern evangelicalism.

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That's right. That's right And eventually that hamster wheel breaks, you know, it it breaks down and people are left disillusioned

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So it really is tragic it is Yeah, it's ironic that the movement that claims to have the highest view of the

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Holy Spirit and the most intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit they're the ones that are actually ascribing to the

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Holy Spirit things that he's not doing and so yeah, so I we should see no ground in our doctrine and view of the

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Holy Spirit of God to those who would Abuse him. Yeah, amen

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Well Scott, I'm really I wrote the foreword to this book. It's an excellent book

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I commend it to people dear friends links down below in the description, but you've written some other books as well

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Talk yeah Yeah, I've written written a number Most recently a book on the

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Psalms called musing on God's music forming hearts of praise with the Psalms a book on How we ought to view our lives as The redeemed people of God, but also citizens in this present world.

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It's called citizens and exiles Christian faithfulness and God's two kingdoms and then a number of books on worship.

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I mentioned earlier that's kind of been my major area of teaching and scholarship over the years and so a

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Book called biblical foundations of Christian worship a book called change from glory into glory Worship and song sound worship a lot of you know, what kind of family worship called let the little children come

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So a number of things All of which you can find at g3 min org

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G3 press has published some of those not all of those, but I think we carry most of those books at g3

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Website, so encourage people to check those out. All right. Good deal Scott thank you so much brother.

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Appreciate your time. Enjoy it. Thank you. Yes indeed All right, dear ones.

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Well, I hope this has been encouraging for you And I do highly commend that you get Scott's book God of order the

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Holy Spirit's work in the world Tremendous resource it will help you a lot. So thank you very much for watching until our next time together