Ireland Conference: Questions & Answers

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Anyway, let's begin. Let's begin actually with an introduction. So I'll just pass the mic down, and do that when you're answering questions too, so people who are outside can hear.

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We'll start with you. Hi, my name's Zach, and I'm one of the elders of the

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Apology of Church Way over in Saratoga, and I've been part of the abortion fight since about 2011.

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I went to Philadelphia in 2011, and a very special man has actually influenced all of us.

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His name is Rusty Thomas. He preached abortion, and that was a moment of change and transition in my life, and I was woken to this horrible reality of child murder.

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So again, I'm one of the elders of these guys, and we just spend all our time trying to save babies. I'm Pastor Jeff Durbin, lead teaching pastor at Apology of Church, and let's see here, we started

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End Abortion Now in 2016. Before that, we were, as a church, just encouraging churches to go out and to save children from being murdered.

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We've raised up nearly 500 churches across the globe, most of them in the

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United States of America that are out preaching the gospel at the abortion mills, and offering hope, offering help to the women and fathers going inside, saving children there.

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And we are encouraging Christians from local churches to bring the message of the gospel, the truth about abortion, that it's murder, and that we need equal protection for all human beings who want abortion to be ended immediately.

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We're bringing that message to our legislatures in the United States of America, and so we really are representative of a movement, and this is very, very important to hear, especially as you guys are hearing pro -life language, pro -life pursuits in your nation, it's especially important for you to hear this.

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There is a distinction between the Christian church and how we approach the issue of abortion, and what you often hear coming out of our country.

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And so that's really the message we have for you today, is that this is about the gospel. First and foremost, it's about Jesus, it's about the message of salvation, it's about justice, and it's about God's people working together as Christians to end abortion immediately.

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My name is Pastor Luke Pearson, also from Apologia Church, and I don't have much else to add to our end abortion now, so I think

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Pastor Jeff and Zach covered that, but we're super, super thankful and grateful for this opportunity to be here today.

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I'm just a punter, really. My name's Michaela, and I'm from Dock Mills RP, and Jeff, I think he invited

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Jeff over to come do a family day conference about three or four years ago now, and he said, guess what, we don't have abortions in this country, it's amazing.

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And he was like, okay, that's amazing, and he started to talk to us, and then he came back and made a film, and then

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Sarah and Paul and Roger and Lydia watched the film and thought,

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I think we should do something. So we all, including Giorno and Joel, offered to put them away, we finally did let them live, so yeah, it's amazing.

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Well, thank you so much for introducing yourselves, thank you for being willing to be on the panel, and well, let's just start.

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We'll start with a question for you all. The new abortion legislation is coming in on March here in Northern Ireland.

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What do you think should be our next step in fighting abortion now that it is legal?

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And so you can just jump in whenever you please. Well, I think the fundamental most important thing for all of us when we're facing things like this is to stand first and foremost on the

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Word of God. It's God's Word that ultimately is the truth, and the

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Bible says the gospel is the power of God for salvation. If people love death, which abortion is death, abortion is the unjustified taking of a human life, abortion is murder.

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If people are okay with murder, if people are embracing murder, then it's ultimately an issue of the heart.

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It's a spiritual condition first and foremost. And the only answer is not going to be creative arguments that are not grounded in Scripture and God's Word and God's truth.

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The only answer is going to be the Word of God, which brings conviction, that opens people's hearts and minds to their own condition and to the truth.

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And so first and foremost, if someone says, what are we going to do when abortion is legalized in Ireland and it's actually being promoted and it's actually being executed in Ireland, the first and foremost answer for Christians always and everywhere for any issue is to first and foremost stand on the

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Word of God, to call people to repentance, to call it what it truly is. So here's what's really important, and this is again key, and I want everyone to please try to hear this.

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And if you take anything away from today, it's a long day, try to remember this essential component. There is a distinction between how the

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Christian church would answer issues of injustice and sin and evil in the world and how a lot of these industries and organizations will address it devoid of the

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Christian message. It's important for everyone to note, and we said this years ago to Raquel and to the team here, that the pro -life movement, the pro -life industry, the pro -life lobby from my country has essentially moved over and is now influencing and setting up over in yours.

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And what you need to understand is that the pro -life industry and lobby in the United States of America has about 50 years of failure behind us.

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I'm sure you guys have heard the numbers, but I'll repeat them. We have over 60 million babies dead in the

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United States of America since Roe versus Wade, that opinion was released in my country.

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It's not a law. Roe versus Wade is not a law in my country. It was simply a court opinion that has now become assumed to be law.

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It's not. So we have 60 million plus. By the way, that number is actually not at all accurate because it does not take into consideration the other means of abortion other than surgical and going to the abortion mills, like pills, like the morning after pill.

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You can go to Target and to other stores in the U .S. right now, and you could buy a morning after pill and kill your baby and only you and the cashier know about it.

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And so when we say 60 million dead babies in the United States of America, we're not counting all the birth control that are really just abortifacients.

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We're not counting the plan B pill, all those things. The pro -life industry that's now set up in your country and is now an operating multimillion dollar business explicitly states that they are not

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Christian. We have it on record. It's not something they hide from. We have the leaders of the pro -life industry and lobby saying that they are not explicitly

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Christian organizations. We have them saying things like, we cannot call this murder. We have them saying things like women are victims of abortion.

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And we have to understand this as the church, as brothers and sisters in Christ, that is not the truth.

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If it's not murder, there's no reason to criminalize it. If it's not murder, there's no reason to ultimately stop it.

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It becomes a matter of preference. If women are victims in the issue of abortion, the women who carry their babies into an abortion mill to have their baby torn to pieces by a paid assassin, if they are victims, then this is not something you can legislate against.

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And I want to say this to my Irish brothers and sisters who are here today. Please hear me on this. You just had abortion seen as murder.

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You had it seen as a criminal act. And what you need to understand is the pro -life movement that is coming over from my country and selling you a bill of goods in terms of just follow us, we'll help you with this.

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They are explicitly not Christian and they are robbing the Irish church and the Irish people of the strength of your position.

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Your position was a position of justice. You cannot take the life of an unborn child in the womb.

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That life is sacred. It matters to God. It matters to us. The pro -life movement has robbed us of the grounding of our position.

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We are truly pro -life Christians, not the pro -life business and industry that's setting up in your nation.

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You have to see the distinction. So when someone says, how are we going to face this thing? I want to say we have to face it as Christians first and foremost.

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Understanding this is an issue of sin and the heart. And we have to understand that we need to call people to Christ and we need to demand justice.

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What's justice look like? God has defined it. That's an image bearer. You cannot murder.

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You shall not murder. Now, Christians have, see, we're, you guys are all

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Presbyterians. Yes. Don't be afraid. Most of you are, you guys are like, we're

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Reformed Baptists. It's just minor differences. We're better. Okay. I'm just teasing. Okay.

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So nobody laughs. Here's, here's the thing. That's a, that's too loud of a laugh, sir.

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Calm down. All right. No, here's the thing. Listen, listen, we have most of the time when you talk to say

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Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians, you wouldn't know the difference until you get into some, some other details like baptism and things like that.

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Now here, here's the thing. There are issues that divide us in terms of, we all see as important issues. I know my

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Presbyterian brothers and sisters, men that are my heroes. I know that you, you hold to this very dearly and you see that as important, but we have those discussions together in unity around Christ and the gospel and the word of God.

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There are things, there are things that we can debate about, right? That, but there are essentials that hold us together.

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You know what is an essential? Those are image bearers of God. And you know what's an essential that we all carry together and there is no difference between us.

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You shall not murder. Those are things that there is no difference.

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We have total unity on. And so when we talk about how to face this, we need to face it down as the church of the living

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God with the word of God. So I don't know all the details about your legal system, but what

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I do know is this, is that God commands us and I can give you the case from scripture. It cannot be avoided.

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God commands us and it's right here. Rescue those who are taken, being taken away to death, hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

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Are these babies being taken away to death? Are they going to the slaughter? Then that is a command to all of us, to Christians.

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That's from God, from his word. Save these children from death. And that's the first and foremost thing we have to do is one, go to the abortion mills where it's taking place.

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Preach the gospel. Two, speak, speak to your communities, use social media, speak to your legislature.

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Listen, the Christian voice needs to be larger than the pro -life business. It has to be.

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And the Christian voice has to be honest and loving, but be truthful. You have to call it what it is.

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What is abortion? Murder. The unjustified taking of a human life is murder.

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It's defined by God's word that way. And it's defined by law that way in all of these countries that were influenced by the

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Christian worldview. You cannot take human life in an unjustified manner. It's called murder. Do not allow the pro -life movement to actually be the one that has the primary voice in this debate.

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If you do, you're going to be standing on top of 60 million plus dead babies, 50 years or less from now.

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That's the truth. That is the absolute truth. And I just want to share this, and I'll pass the microphone off. The one thing that will definitely change you, and I'm going to encourage you to all start this, see all these young people in here, it's glorious.

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Go to the abortion clinics, preach the gospel, save lives. When you hold these babies in your arms, when you hold them in your arms that have been saved because you were there preaching the truth, trying to rescue them, it'll change you forever.

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And if your whole life is spent outside of an abortion mill preaching the gospel to save one child, one, it's a life well lived.

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And so speak the truth. You? Yeah, he stole everything I was going to say, but no, he's right.

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I mean, I can't remember. I think it was a man, an American philosopher, theologian, his name was

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Francis Schaeffer. He said that at every single abortion clinic in America, there should be a sign that says open by permission of the church, right?

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So it's our duty because we're on the Lordship of Jesus Christ to rescue those who are being delivered to death.

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So it's not a couple of superstars. And that's the greatest thing is you look inside of America and the people that are really saving lives, especially our private abortion clinics.

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It's not some super special people that are doing it. It's just consistent, loving, obedient Christians.

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So you need to understand that this is simply the outworking of loving your neighbor. We go and do this because God commands us to love our neighbor.

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That means it applies to each and every single one of you. So we all need to make that decision. This is your command,

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Jesus. I will go. We're all not living creatures out there. We are the body of Christ and we consist of all different types of giftings and abilities, but you must be involved and you must be involved, you know, especially in particularly how

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God has crafted you and made you. But when all hands are on deck is when we see these types of evils being done away with.

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You just look out throughout history. You look at the slave trade in America. You look at what, of course,

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Hitler did in the 20th century in Germany. All of these victories were, you know, accomplished and all of these evils were put under the feet of Jesus as the

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Church of Jesus Christ would collectively get up and say, I will be involved to do that. So that's what

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I want to challenge you today. How do we do it? You have to be involved. We are all indispensable parts of this whole mission.

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You just have to know that about yourself and get involved. Do any of you guys here have questions as follow up?

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I'm sure questions are popping into your head. Are any of you brave enough to actually voice them? Frank with the loud loud.

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We'll call you out twice. We're not Irish.

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We're British. Can Frank stop and ask the question?

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How do I use it in Ireland? All the Christians in Ireland. They still get grumpy.

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That's a very practical point because of the beautiful NHS system.

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Most likely a lot of abortions will be happening right there on the maternity ward.

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And so you'll have the barbarism of life being brought into the world. And in the next cubicle, you'll have an abortion happening.

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And so that's a very practical question that you maybe won't have an answer for. But we are watching you guys in front of abortion clinics crying out beautifully, graciously to those mothers who are going to murder their babies.

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But we're thinking, how do we do that with a hospital that serves thousands? And people are going in to have their babies.

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People are going in because they've miscarried. People are going in like you don't know who you're preaching to.

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And so that's, we don't have an answer for that yet. So just my initial thoughts toward it, and I know

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I'm not an expert in terms of how you can do it here, but I'll tell you, when we're at the abortion mills in the

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United States of America, we have sometimes about 15 to 20 seconds from the car door to the door of the abortion clinic.

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And so that means that the mother comes out of the car, typically with the father or the boyfriend, or she gets out of a cab because she's being dropped off or a taxi.

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And we have to talk to her for 15 to 20 seconds. We have to make sure it's quick and loving, but also truthful.

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So the first thing we say to her is, ma 'am, we care about you. Please don't murder your child today. First, there's the truth.

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Please don't murder your child. Speak to her as an image bearer of God. Appeal to her God -given conscience and His law that's already on her heart.

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Say, ma 'am, please don't murder your child today. You say, we're here to help you. We'll give you anything you need.

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We'll adopt your child. We will love you. We'll give you a place to stay. We'll take care of all your needs as the church.

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And the third thing we say is you can know Christ today. You can know eternal life and forgiveness by turning to Him in faith.

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Please let us help you. That's about 20 seconds, right? So that's it. That's the message that goes out and out and out all day.

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And so it's a general message. Maybe you don't know who you're talking to. I would try to say it anyways.

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Or you can hold the signs that we hold outside of abortion facilities. We have a number of them. Number one is, please don't hurt your child.

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We'll adopt your baby. So as someone's driving past you, maybe they're considering abortion or going in for the abortion, they see the sign.

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Please don't harm your child. We'll help you. Or we have a sign that maybe even is a graphic sign that shows the actual consequences of the choice of murdering your child.

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People need to see that. You know, it's interesting. I don't know about your history books, but in our history books in the United States of America, we have the pictures of the black people and their backs and the destruction.

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We have pictures of all these things. We have pictures of the Holocaust in our history books.

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We have pictures of the dead bodies piled up. Why? Because we understand we need to remind people of this and never forget.

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We need to show people the brutality so that it never happens again. And so we do believe very strongly in the pictures.

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And I will tell you this. I can't tell you how many times a mother has come to me on the street while holding one of those grotesque signs of the aftermath of murdering her child, and she said to me, thank you for being here today.

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I looked at your sign and you changed my mind. Something to that effect. And so the graphic signs do work to tell the story.

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Now, I don't know how far you can be from the hospital or the abortion clinics, but I can tell you this. Honestly, if our church was in the context where they said you can't be 50 feet or 100 feet away, or you have to be outside that line, we would be 100 feet away outside the line on all corners so that as everyone's driving in, they're going to see the signs and we're offering help.

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Have pamphlets with information about the gospel and how we can help you. Have pamphlets about how we will adopt your child.

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Whatever the case may be, they need to see the church out there standing there. And I would do it around the whole hospital.

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If they put you a half a mile away, then you're half a mile away with the message so that the community has light on the murder that's taking place there.

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That's helpful. Yeah, I think probably two things.

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One, you'll probably, as you get more and more involved with this and as they start figuring out how they're going to do this, you'll probably notice a difference in the women coming in by their appearance, by what they're wearing or behavior.

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You'll probably start to notice that difference. That's something that only time will tell.

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The other thing too, Pastor Jeff mentioned, is you're probably going to be facing what they call bubble zones.

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So I know in Australia, they've just enforced some very strict, like really far bubble zones where they can't be within basically like two blocks of these hospitals or these murder places.

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So that's something that you're going to probably be facing as well. In the States, they've been trying and haven't succeeded very well in enforcing those.

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So there's some places in the States where some abortion mills where you can stand literally right in front of the door and just talk into the building.

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But the one that we go to the most is, what is it, like 150 feet? It's very difficult.

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It's far. Yeah, it's far. So these are all things you're going to have to figure out as they put the laws in place and you might have to start figuring out laws with amplification as well.

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I don't know if they're going to allow you to use amplification. That's why if you sign up with an abortion now, we have cones.

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So you're not actually using amplification, but those cones work pretty well to propel your voice pretty far.

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So those are just things to keep in mind as you figure out how this is going to work. Thank you, Pastor Luke.

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In fact, just one quick thing. When you speak to your communities in this way and you're a light there, you are the one with the dominant voice defining what abortion is.

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So when you're out in your community bringing light to it and calling it murder and calling people to come to Christ, you are the one with the dominant voice that's describing what's taking place in the abortion mills.

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So you need your voice to carry. You have the power of this right here.

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You have the power of social media, power to speak and tell the truth about abortion in Ireland.

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You can do that and you need people to do that. And it takes courage. It takes a lot of courage.

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But again, when you hold one of these babies in your arms that was seconds away from being murdered, you'll know that it was worth it.

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It was worth your whole life. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

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That's the love of God. Sacrificing even your own self, your own reputation for the sake of another.

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Lewis, do you have a question? My question was about the buffers that are going to be around them, the mills.

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Is there any way that we can bypass that? Yeah. So it's like a buffer mill.

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So it's our buffer zone. So it's saying you have to stand a certain amount of feet away from the door.

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I mean, particularly, you know, what we do in the States is we want to obey the law as far as we can.

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So if that ever happened, you know, we, of course, we would fight that before that ever happened.

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But if it did, you just have to, you have to figure out, like Pastor Jeff just said, I mean, if it's 10 feet, 20 feet, 30 feet, you figure out where you have to be and you set up there and God will bless you there.

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Even if it's 150 feet, we would get probably amplification and try to communicate. But no matter what, as far, you know, even if we're restricted to the hilt, if we're restricted in as many ways as we can count, just the church being out there, handing out gospel tracts, loving people, preaching the gospel, that's the light that you need to shine in the community.

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And I think the question was asked last night at a meeting we were at. It says, how do we wake up the sleeping church within Northern Ireland?

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It's when Christians be bold and courageous and do this. So the answer to all of this is you got to figure it out.

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Just as we have to figure it out, we have to work. You have to do the proper research and reconnaissance and figure it out and get out there and do it.

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And I would say, I think the first time I went to the bell almost 10 years ago, I drove around it like three or four times because I was so afraid, just shaking in my, in my boots.

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And then I drove away and then I went again and God gave me the courage to stand out there. But we have to get past our fears, trusting that God has not given us a spirit of timidity or one of self -control.

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God will give us the boldness and courage that we need. We need to get out there. And so I guess the simple answer to your question would be, figure it out.

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If it's at the maternity ward, go, go and do it. And you can send us a message and I'd be happy to help you from the

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States. I can research as well. All you have to do is send me a message and I'll help you. Cool.

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So let them live and need you guys to do what Pastor Zak has said and figure out, because there is, there's, there's a lot to figure out.

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How can you proclaim the gospel into that square that's shut off to you? Um, a little, but yeah, these are the things we need to think and pray much about and act.

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Uh, questions more, please. That was a sentence. Well, we, as a church are, we have our entire church are, we have a number of families who have said, absolutely, we'll take these children and we'll adopt them.

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And as a church family, we're committed to pay for the adoption, to raise money for the adoption, whatever it takes. Um, I want to share something, something with you in that claim that we'll adopt your child.

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We mean it. We always have meant it. And we say it every single day that we go to the abortion mill.

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We have always said it from the very beginning, without fail, we will adopt your child. Do you want to know how many children we've adopted from the abortion mill?

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Yes. And do you know why? And I, this was shocking to me because I had people tell me this who are veterans in this.

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They've been doing this for long, long time, decades, going, saving lives. They were saying to us initially, um, you need to say that, but just know that they're going to tell you that, that they couldn't give their child up for adoption.

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And they're going to turn around and walk inside that door and kill their child. And it's the absolute truth. I've heard it more times than I can remember.

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We say, we'll adopt your child. The woman will turn around and she'll say, I couldn't give my baby up for adoption.

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And then she'll turn around inside and she'll murder her child all the time. That's the message.

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Now, by God's grace, I have heard of rare instances where there have been occasions where somehow someone takes someone into their home and they end up adopting the child, but it's very rare.

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But as a church, we need to stand ready to say that we will adopt your child. And we have to mean it because one of the arguments you're going to hear, one of the arguments you're going to hear from, uh, those on the other side, they call them, they're pro -aborts.

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Um, you're going to hear, well, you guys are just pro -birth, not pro -life because you're not adopting all these children.

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And that is, I think, a very, a very powerful indictment upon the Christian church. You know, in history, the Christian church has owned, ruled, uh, embraced, um, we were the best at the adoption, um, problem, uh, orphanages.

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We were, we were doing it. We, it was us because of the failure of the Christian church in the area of adoption and orphanages, the state has taken over in my country and yours.

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So we do need to get back to our, our history, our tradition of really taking ownership of the adoption issue and orphanages and all the rest.

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And that means as Christians, we have to adopt these children and be willing to adopt them. At Apologia Church, we have a number of families with a number of children.

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I have an adopted son myself. Um, we need to be adopting children, uh, cause we have to, is this an

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Irish thing? Can you say this in Ireland? We had to put our money where our mouth is. You understand that? Good.

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No translation necessary. You got to mean what you say. And if we say that we'll adopt your baby, we got to start doing it, you know, and I'll tell you this encouraging word on the adoption issue.

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I don't know how expensive it is in Ireland, but it's very expensive in United States of America. It's at least 30 to 40 ,000

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American dollars to adopt a child. And that's just basically it's semi -private adoption. Um, when

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I was adopting my son, uh, in November, we put the word out that we needed to adopt him.

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He, he was diagnosed with spina bifida, very serious spine condition. Uh, within I think 12 hours, the whole entire thing was funded because the church rose up to say, absolutely.

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So you got to trust God with this. When Christians say, I'll obey you, Lord, here's what we're going to do. You'd be surprised at how the

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Christian community really from all over the world comes together to say, yes, we'll help with that.

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So thank you. Um, also I think along those lines, it's important to say that we will provide whatever you need and along those lines, you need to have that lined up.

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So again, put your money where your mouth is. So when you say, tell them other, whatever you need, we'll take care of like be prepared.

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So have, you know, the ability to provide a medical care or a clothing or diapers, whatever that mother's going to need for that, for her to keep that baby, like be prepared to, to have that available, to give her that help as well.

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Cool. And so as you're starting out, you might not be able to provide everything she needs, right?

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Uh, we've been blessed with such a network of people in that network of support that we can, we can immediately adopt and immediately get finances, get lodging on the spot.

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But as you're starting out, you might not have those resources, but what you can do is do the research research to point them to those resources.

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So when you say, well, hey, I can adopt, but you can, you can appoint them to a Christian adoption institution and organization within, uh,

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Northern Ireland. So it's finding out and say, well, I can't do that, but I can actually walk you over or I can take you to this place.

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That's going to give you the legitimate women's healthcare that you need or the adoption services that you need.

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So you start out small and then you move and God knows, you know, time goes by,

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God will bless. Thank you. Well, moving the conversation on from the abortion mill ministry and how we're to do that in our

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Northern Irish setting, uh, to, uh, more one -to -one the conversations we have with our pro -choice friend and, um, the difficulties of that.

30:47

And so we have a few questions regarding that that have been sent from you. Uh, the first is, uh, this is for you,

30:53

Trevor, my brother -in -law, you beautiful man. Uh, what would you say to people who support abortions for babies who are sick or unlikely to survive after birth?

31:07

Well, first of all, it's just a point of description of the law of games and the law takes away.

31:13

And I was in that difficult position in my wife in 2014. I used to see it from a background of drugs and a few years back, got married, wife told me she was pregnant.

31:23

It was an amazing time. You go for your 12 -week scan and you think you're going to get a picture and go out and have a friends and have a baby.

31:30

And the doctor told us the reason that I'd be seriously sick and probably in terms of down syndrome and all these things.

31:38

And they started talking about options. And as I said, I was very, from a drugs background,

31:44

I just wanted to get out of there, get high and what scripture gave me. And it just, uh, give me a piece.

31:51

And I just knew God was going to be with me. Relation to Christ, the

31:57

Christ who lives in me. And like, I live in the flesh and with my faith. And so God will give himself for me.

32:03

And I just had this piece and I thought, I don't know where this is. We'll get through this. But this Muslim doctor started saying, you know, there's options.

32:09

I was trying to say, we're going to England. And I just said, I'm a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I don't want to be working on this child.

32:15

And which went on week. We're obviously talking about options and they all said no.

32:22

And as a Calvinist, somebody who believes in the side of me, God, it's very, very difficult, but I knew

32:27

God was still in control. And it would be easier. I can see why somebody who wasn't a believer in my previous life,

32:35

I probably would have taught the option to go for the motion because I was a selfish individual who had no thought of God or anybody else, just for myself.

32:43

Me and my wife, both Christians, and we knew we couldn't take the life of that child. And the God of Providence, he took the child in the 24th week.

32:51

Now if that child had been born three hours earlier, in the 23rd week and 10 hours, it would have been put down as a miscarriage and it wouldn't have counted as a life.

33:01

God and his Providence took it after midnight and we got to bury our child and name our child.

33:07

And I felt at peace that I would see my child again. It wasn't about Jesus Christ. Who did?

33:13

I just know I'm not a murderer. Many things as a drug user, many things shouldn't have been done, but I never want that in my conscience that I'm murdering a child.

33:24

Last year I seen a story of a couple in Dublin who were off the same choice we had and they took the terrible decision to murder their child.

33:35

They did the tests as they did the tests on our child and it came back with Turner Syndrome and obviously one less chromosome issue.

33:43

But this couple in Dublin, the child was perfectly healthy and they murdered their child. When I read that story,

33:51

I just thought, the guilt of that. I don't have that. Thank goodness, thank God. The thought of, you know, realising you murdered a healthy child.

34:01

If the child wasn't just left, left it to the Lord and the

34:06

Lord took that child. I can't wait for the day where I get to meet Jesus Christ. When he returns and when

34:13

I meet him, I'll get to see my daughter. Amen. Thank you dear brother.

34:24

Well, returning to the cold -hearted debates that our pro -abort countrymen and women have.

34:33

Question seven there. When you get into discussions with pro -abortion supporters, it feels like they all read off a script saying the same thing.

34:42

How do you break into that to actually get them to think? That's a good question. To get them to think and what is the main thing you try to get them to think about?

34:52

And that's to you all. So me?

34:58

Okay. I guess it's mine. Luke, do you want to go?

35:03

Go ahead. Okay. All right. So yes, there's a lot of pro -abortion propaganda out there.

35:13

My country unfortunately feeds a lot of that into your country and so I apologise for that.

35:19

But you're hearing a lot of memorized arguments. Her body, her choice, no uterus, no voice, those sorts of things.

35:30

You hear those typical arguments from the pro -abortion side and they are just oftentimes very pithy, silly, illogical arguments.

35:42

And so what's important... Well, I'll start with this. If you go to our YouTube channel, Apologia Studios on YouTube, you can just search through there for conflict we've had at the abortion mills.

35:54

So we go out there for the sake of the women who are going in to save those children and we go out there for you.

36:01

You need to know this. When we go to the abortion mill and we turn the cameras on, we're turning the cameras on of course because we want to spread the message, we want to save children, but we really put those out there for you, the church, our brothers and sisters.

36:14

That's why the videos are up because we want you to be able to see the conflict that happens and hear the responses.

36:21

We have probably over 1300 videos on our channel on YouTube. I don't know how many of those are actual conflict at the abortion mill.

36:29

I'm preaching at the abortion mill. But you'll see videos on our channel of actual interaction and I am confident about this.

36:35

If you go through our videos at the abortion mill, us interacting with... We call them death scorts.

36:41

They are escorts from Planned Parenthood, an abortion industry provider in our country. They are volunteers who show up to escort the women in and to comfort them and give them solace as they're going to murder their children.

36:57

There are people who volunteer to encourage the women and the fathers as they come in to kill their children and to try to block us from speaking to them.

37:06

But you'll see interaction with us in the death scorts. You'll see interaction with us on the street with people passing by and they're giving the same arguments.

37:14

There's only probably about five, like legitimately five arguments for their side.

37:21

All poor, all illogical, all easily refuted. And it'd be good for you to actually hear those arguments.

37:28

I'll give you an example. I'll toss one out. So what if she was raped?

37:36

Now watch what it does. Watch what it does. You see the emotion in that? Because you're a Christian worldview.

37:42

Guess what? That unbeliever, that atheist, that agnostic who just used the argument of what if she was raped, you know what she's doing?

37:48

She's pulling on your Christian heartstrings. Watch. Think about the worldview for a second.

37:54

Say there's an atheist who's saying, abortion, abortion, what if she is raped? What's that abortionist believe about the world?

38:00

That it's a cosmic accident? What's the atheist believe about his origins? That his ancestors were fish and bacteria.

38:08

So here you have somebody that believes that life has no meaning, has no purpose. There's no ultimate morality.

38:14

Nothing is ultimately right or wrong. They believe that they're a descendant of bacteria and they're saying, well, what if she was raped?

38:21

What are they doing? Pulling on your Christian heartstrings. They're borrowing the Christian worldview to argue with you because according to the

38:27

Christian worldview, rape is evil, right? So you go, oh man, what if she was raped?

38:33

But what are they really, what are they missing the whole time? Right? Think about what they're missing.

38:38

So what if she was raped? Okay, so what you say is this, okay, so is rape wrong? Yes, rape is absolutely wrong.

38:43

Well, according to an atheist perspective, I find that hard to believe. You believe that your ancestors were bacteria, but let's assume for a second that rape is morally wrong.

38:51

What's wrong with rape? And then that person says, rape, rape is a violation of another person's body.

38:57

It's doing something to somebody's body that you have no permission to do. And what you can say to them is thank you for that extremely powerful pro -life argument.

39:08

Rape is doing something to somebody's body against their will, doing something to somebody's body that you have no permission to do.

39:17

Right? So fundamentally, if they're opposed to rape, they should be opposed to abortion because what is abortion?

39:24

Taking the life of an unborn child in an unjust way. Also, think about this for a second in terms of the inconsistencies.

39:32

I'll say this often in the United States of America. I just recently did with some pro -abortionists at the Capitol in Oklahoma.

39:38

I said, now, let's consider for a second what I believe. I said, I believe that rape is an abomination.

39:44

It is a wicked thing, and I believe that rape should be punished by the state, and I think actually rapists should be given the capital punishment.

39:51

That's how severe I think it should be for the state. That's my own, that's my view. You don't have to agree, but that's what I say.

39:57

So I say this to the pro -abortionists. I'll say, but in your case, what do you think should happen to the rapist?

40:02

He goes, oh no, I don't believe in capital punishment. I don't believe in killing. Do you see it?

40:10

It's weak. It's pithy. It's silly. It's irreconcilable. So what I said to him is this.

40:16

I said, no, you do believe in killing. You believe in capital punishment for the child. I said, what's interesting here is

40:24

I said, you believe that the rapist should not be punished, but the child of the rapist should be.

40:30

I said, I don't believe that we should punish the children of criminals for the crimes of the father.

40:37

Also rape, incest, and life of the mother account for less than 2 % of all abortions.

40:43

Did you catch that? What are their popular arguments? Rape, incest, life of the mother. Rape, incest, life of the mother.

40:49

Less than 2 % of all abortions. Which means 98 % of all the killing is what?

40:56

At will, because I'm not comfortable, because this messes with my life to some degree.

41:02

And so what you need to do is take away those arguments. So one rape, no, I don't believe this. We should kill the children of criminals.

41:10

Two incest. I know people who are the products of incestuous relationships, and I don't think we should kill them.

41:16

Thank you. Right. So you can just move down the line and work through those arguments and go to our channel to get the answers. What about keeping your cool during apologies?

41:26

I am very leisurely sitting down. I'm probably not the best person to speak. Speaking of cool, especially speaking of JWs, my wife's had to drag me away a few times.

41:35

But what I would say if you're talking to people, obviously watch Jeff's channel too, but make sure that you're the one asking questions too.

41:41

Don't always be answering their questions. You've got the ammunition too, you know, ask questions.

41:47

So you give yourself time to think as well. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know exactly how to answer the question, but just on when you're speaking to someone and your question was,

41:59

I don't know who asked it, what would you try to get them to think about? I think keeping them calm is really important and you remaining calm.

42:07

And I think that it's, I don't know what these guys would say, but for me, I try and listen to their point of view and I try to gain some common ground.

42:15

I don't know if that's maybe the right thing to do, but I try to gain common ground. So I once spoke to a lovely girl who was a vegan and she was telling me all about her point of view and I'm not a vegan, but I find it interesting.

42:29

And I try, I did my best to, to find common ground in that area and to show respect for her point of view so that then

42:36

I could then say, look, I have listened to your point of view and I have given you respect on that by listening and actually considering it.

42:44

And now you have to listen to my point of view. It's a two way conversation. It's not just hammering them.

42:51

And yeah, that's, I think that's maybe a way in is to, especially with your friends, if there are things that you do agree on, show them you agree on.

42:59

So you're not just this person who's like, I disagree with everything you think, you know, that's just my little. Regarding the gentle response, like keeping your calm, just remember you're a murderer too.

43:13

You're a, whatever sin you think of, the seed of that sin's in your heart and that's the road you would merrily go down if the

43:21

Lord Jesus had not saved you and even holds you back in your state of salvation. And so that humility,

43:28

I would say is the answer to gentle speech and realizing, oh, that's, that's me.

43:34

Like that's, that's on save me talking and loving murder.

43:40

And Calvinism. I'm serious. God's in control.

43:46

Can I call you a Calvinist? Yeah. Do you believe in the presbytery? You believe that? Presbytery, well,

43:52

I'm fighting my way through it. Okay. Okay. Right on. All right. Okay. Research. Okay. All right. Good. I was just curious.

43:57

He's a welcome visitor of ours. Oh, he's a welcome visitor. Okay. There you go. Should I say Holland just to annoy you? So I can at least say this.

44:04

Broadly, I'll say theologically speaking, in terms of when we go out there and we can stay calm with people and we can preach in a gracious way to them.

44:11

Can I just be honest? If you try to muster that through physical, sheer physical effort, you're going to fail because things can get nasty out there.

44:20

People will throw things at you. We've had stuff poured on our people. We've had hamburgers thrown at them and food.

44:25

We've had people trying to run us down with their cars. We've had people spit in our faces. We've had people, we had somebody beat up somebody.

44:33

And while he was knocked out, they kept punching him while he was asleep. And if you try to pull this together through sheer physical efforts, you will fail.

44:41

There has to be a foundation to how you can love another image bearer of God, who is acting in a way that is violent or is just telling you things that are just straight dark or evil.

44:51

And my answer to it, ultimately, some people may not like this, is Calvinism. Because what do we recognize in Calvinism?

44:58

Total depravity. This person, this person is lost. They're dead in their sins and trespasses.

45:04

The only difference between them and me is the grace of God.

45:10

And the only thing that's going to ultimately open their eyes to the truth is the drawing of the Father.

45:16

So what ultimately is the thing that's going to have them see the light? It's not my creative arguments.

45:22

It's not my way to sort of manipulate the conversation. It's truth that God uses to plant seeds to bring about life.

45:30

And so what I have to recognize is that they're lost and God needs to open their eyes. What's going to open their eyes?

45:37

The message, the truth. And so I have to recognize it's not me. It's not my aggression. It's not my sophisticated arguments.

45:43

It's the truth. And so I can relax and stay calm because if this person is lost, I recognize

45:48

I should be where they are. I should be in their shoes. It's just the grace of God that separates us.

45:54

So there's no reason for me to be arrogant. No reason for me to try to ultimately try to protect my ego or anything like that at all.

46:01

Just tell the truth and leave it to the Lord. Question?

46:08

Please tell me about going to DuPont here. You're talking about Calvinism. Basically, if the child is worth it, and probably

46:16

I'm taking a little bit of the wrong turn, but I started reading a book of R .C. Sproul now. About predestination.

46:25

So can you basically say God knew that the child was going to be worth it?

46:33

Of course. But that's what I find an incredibly hard point to believe and basically to...

46:41

Well, let's start. I'll hang it there so we're not on this too long and we don't divert too far. But I'll answer the question. I think it's an important one.

46:47

Let me ask you this. If somebody wasn't Reformed, they didn't hold to a doctrine of predestination. Do you believe that God is all -knowing?

46:54

Yes. So you haven't solved the problem. In both our systems, we both believe that God is all -knowing and He knew, right?

47:01

And so it doesn't solve the problem by saying that God is not fully sovereign over it because in both systems,

47:07

God knows. What I would say is a consistent perspective of Scripture of God declaring the end from the beginning is that all evil in the world has purpose.

47:16

I want to have, I believe, the biblical God who declares the end from the beginning where all evil has purpose like the murder and brutality given to Jesus.

47:26

It was according to the predestined, predetermined plan of God. The murder of Jesus, the wicked act of the murder of Jesus, God predestined those men to brutalize

47:38

Jesus and to nail Him to a cross. That was the most wicked act in human history and it says that God predestined it.

47:44

In other words, according to Scripture, God predestines everything has a purpose.

47:51

So yes, even in a fallen world where wicked things happen, all those wicked things have a purpose. I don't want to embrace the idea of an all -knowing

47:59

God that allows evil to happen in the world without a purpose. And so that would be my quick answer so we don't get too far, of course, but keep reading the

48:07

R .C. Sproul book, okay? Okay, yes. What if the person you're talking to refuses to argue and just says, oh,

48:16

I believe in your opinion, your opinion's yours, not mine? We get that a lot.

48:22

Flash that out a little more so I can understand. Truth is relative, you believe that, that's true. It's okay, you believe what you want, the world's a free place.

48:31

Yeah, here's what you want to show them, they don't really believe that. So if it was a young woman, I would say to her,

48:37

I would say, sweetheart, you don't really believe that. And she says, yes, I do. I would say, well, my interpretation, because it's all relative, is that you don't really believe that.

48:47

And there's a conflict that starts to happen there. You show them that they don't really believe that and they can't believe that.

48:52

All truth is relative. To the person, well, okay, so then Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't wrong.

48:58

Do you know who he is? Oh, we're in Ireland. Okay, goodness gracious. Ted Bundy was a man, maybe you've seen the

49:05

Netflix specials of Ted Bundy, the docu -series and things coming out now. He was a man that went on a killing spree across the

49:12

United States of America. He was just murdering women and dumping their bodies across the country. You have countless examples in history of people doing things that they believed were okay and good and true.

49:25

It made them feel good, right? So the moral relativist who says, well, all truth is relative, doesn't really believe it.

49:32

Do you know how? You know? When someone steals their car stereo, what do they do?

49:39

They call the police. Why? Demonstrating that they do not believe that all truth is relative.

49:44

The thief believed it was okay for him to take the car stereo, but somehow or another, the person doesn't believe it was ultimately right to do.

49:51

So you can demonstrate to the moral relativist that they don't really believe what they say by saying this to them.

49:57

Okay, so all truth is relative? Yes. So it's up to the individual, what they believe. Absolutely. So rape isn't morally wrong then, is it?

50:05

And they'll say, oh no, no, no. Rape is morally wrong. According to who? According to you? The rapist doesn't share your perspective.

50:12

The rapist believes all truth is relative. My truth is that this is a perfectly moral, happy thing to do.

50:19

So you can just do it by touching the image of God in the person. They don't really believe it. All truth is relative.

50:24

It's relative to the individual. Fantastic. So what Stalin did, and Hitler did, and Mao did, and Pol Pot did wasn't really morally evil, was it?

50:36

Sure, it led to the death of millions upon millions upon millions of people, but all truth is relative, baby.

50:42

Right? It's up to the individual. His truth, he was just living out his truth. Right? He was just living his truth.

50:49

Now the person who's a moral relativist, it goes, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not up to the individual.

50:55

It's up to the society. It's relative to what the society determines is actually right.

51:01

The society says, this is true. It's relative to our society. Fantastic. So you have no complaint with Hitler then, do you?

51:10

Because the society had determined this is morally, okay, it's not repugnant. Or how about my nation, my country?

51:16

We used to kidnap black people, bring them over and enslave them. Right? And as a point in time in my culture where generally the consensus was, this is a happy moral thing to do.

51:27

So you have no complaint with slavery then in the United States, do you? Because it was relative to that culture. They believe that you can enslave black people.

51:33

I know it looks like a person. It's not a person. It's a black man. I know it looks like a Jew. It's not a Jew. I know it looks like a person.

51:39

It's not a person. It's a Jew. Right? If it's relative to society, then guess what? You can't complain about what one society does.

51:48

There are some cultures that believe that it's okay to kill and eat other human beings. Well, if all truth is relative and that culture believes that and is to ordain that and says, this is the truth, you have no argument with it.

52:00

Every person in this world is made in the image of God. They know the true God and they have the true

52:05

God's law written on their heart. And so try as they might, moral relativism is very popular, but try as they might, they can't live it consistently at every moment of their life.

52:18

They're going to show the contradiction. So just with moral relativist, give them a nasty one, give them an ugly one, like give them a case of something awful that's happened in Ireland and say, so you don't really have a complaint with that.

52:30

Do you? And they'll say, no, no, I do. No, you don't. Because they didn't share your truth. They had a different truth.

52:36

See, it'll come right out. They do believe that truth is objective. It's outside of them, right?

52:42

It's not within them and their interpretation. Truth is outside of them. Watch this. The atheist who is a relativist.

52:49

Does he believe that that does wrong? Yes. Come on.

52:54

Don't be afraid. Yeah, he does. Right. He'll call the cops if someone steals his stereo, right? He'll chase him down the street.

53:00

Does the atheist believe that murder is wrong? Yes. Does he believe rape is wrong? Yes. What's that mean?

53:06

He's not a relativist because he expects everybody to follow that objective standard.

53:13

See, relativism is a silly answer from people who are lost. That's it.

53:18

One last question, and then I'll give it over to the panel if they want to say any closing words.

53:26

This is something that we are facing in Northern Ireland with the church, as some of you have already said, largely asleep.

53:38

The question is, what would you say to godly, well -meaning folk who say the church's job isn't to set up campaigns like Let Them Live, End Abortion Now, or Marriage Matters.

53:53

Marriage Matters is a campaign set up within the RPs to challenge same -sex marriage.

53:59

It isn't the job to set up those campaigns, but it is to preach the word and not to get distracted from that.

54:05

So we have heard that as members of Let Them Live, we have heard that from more than one angle.

54:12

We have answered, but what would you answer? I'd like to hear how you've answered that.

54:19

We have answered... I'll play it cool.

54:27

We have answered that in that all we're doing is the work of the bride, the church, by proclaiming the gospel.

54:35

The only addition we are doing concerning the commands of God is branding it for media purposes.

54:42

Yes. So if I can answer that, I'll try to answer as briefly as possible.

54:48

One of the things we have heard a lot in this from apathetic Christians across the

54:53

United States of America are those who say, I don't think you should go to the abortion mills. I don't think you should go, and I think you should just preach the gospel.

55:01

I would say, well, that's what we're doing at the abortion mills. We're actually going to the abortion mill to preach the gospel.

55:07

We're going to our legislature to preach the gospel. I would ask them, how many women did you talk to this week who were going to kill their baby with the gospel?

55:15

I spoke to about 20. How many did you speak to? How's your just preach the word and preach the gospel?

55:23

How's that working out for you? Because we've saved about 10 babies this last month.

55:28

How many babies did you save from abortion through your just preaching the word campaign? Because our work, our effort is at the abortion mill, at the legislature.

55:37

We're going into the public square with the message of the gospel. So what I want to say is this very respectfully to a brother or sister that says, we just need to be about the gospel and the word of God.

55:46

I would say, you just must not understand the context of what we're doing because our whole effort is about the gospel and the word of God, but we're taking it into the public square.

55:55

It sounds to me like your argument is that Christians should be staying in the four walls of their churches, preaching the word to one another.

56:05

What I want to say is that abortion facility is about a half a mile away from the church, and those women are going in to kill their babies, and God commands us to bring the word to them, to go rescue them where they're at.

56:18

And so what I would just try to encourage them to hear and to see is look at the fruit of the ministries who actually bring the gospel in these contexts into the public square.

56:29

You're right. End abortion now is a banner over a movement of churches that are about the gospel. Let them live is a banner over a movement of the church to bring the gospel into this context.

56:40

And one of the things that shuts down the argument right away, and this is, by the way, when we first started this, we got it all the time.

56:46

We'd be talking about it. You got to go to the abortion mill. Come on, brothers and sisters, we can do this. Let's love our neighbor. And we'd have people pop in and they'd say,

56:54

I don't think that's very effective. I don't think you should go to the abortion mill. You just need to preach the gospel and love your neighbor like that.

57:01

And it's like, well, that's what I'm doing. And it got to the point where I was like, this is kind of frustrating because that's precisely what's happening.

57:07

So I just, what I did is I prepared in a folder on my phone, saved pictures of the babies, like twin girls named

57:16

Olivia, Grace and Cara. They were saved at an abortion mill in Tempe, Arizona. A little boy named

57:21

Carmelo got to hold him in my arms. He was seconds away from being murdered at an abortion mill in Glendale, Arizona, right?

57:28

These are babies that we've been a part of saving. And I had more pictures of babies saved, right? Who were like running around and like holding in the arms and everything else.

57:35

And so what I, what I committed to do is this. When someone says, I don't think you should go out there. It's not effective.

57:41

Just preach the word, preach the gospel. All I would do is share a picture of the baby. No words, no commentary, picture of the baby.

57:50

And if they said more, I'd send another picture of another baby, anything else, another picture, another baby.

57:56

And I would finally get to the point where I'd very respectfully say, well, these babies were saved in the last year through the efforts of our preaching the gospel at the abortion mill.

58:04

How many babies has your methodology saved? And that ends the argument every time.

58:12

Because the truth is, can I say this without sounding arrogant? I hope I don't because it applies to me too.

58:19

It did apply to me and I repented of it. Is honestly where most of this is coming from.

58:25

It's coming from a place of cowardice. It's cowardice. We're afraid to get into the public square.

58:32

We're afraid to risk our reputations. We're afraid to suffer for the sake of these children.

58:38

And so what we say is we just need to be about the gospel. We just need to preach the word, but that's what we're doing, but we're just doing it where it's taking place and where it counts the most.

58:48

You will not stop abortion in your country by being pro -life between your ears with your brothers and sisters at coffee shops.

58:56

You won't. You'll save children's lives by bringing the gospel into the public square.

59:02

And somebody might say to that, oh my goodness, that'll create riots. That'll create people trying to beat us and hurt us.

59:09

That's all kinds of persecution. I would say, read the book of Acts. Right?

59:15

Read the book of Acts. And a funny quote I just recently heard, a Bishop in, you'll like this, in England.

59:26

He said, everywhere the Apostle Paul went to preach the gospel, a riot or revival broke out.

59:37

He said, everywhere I go, they serve me tea. You see the problem?

59:44

Yeah. Any final words from all the panelists? Because I'm just noticing the

59:49

R. We do want to hear from you, brother. Crack on. I was going to add on to what

59:57

Jeff was saying. I would respond to that question by saying, well, you're being sinful if you're not.

01:00:05

I mean, we look at Proverbs 24, the verse you have up there. It's the same verse we use, right?

01:00:11

If you're not holding back those going to the slaughter, then you're in sin.

01:00:17

Because it's a command. It's not a suggestion. He's not saying, hey, here's a suggestion. Right? Also, if you look at the, what are the two greatest commandments, right?

01:00:27

Love God and love neighbor. And like Pastor Jeff was saying, if you're not trying to stop those babies from being murdered, you're not loving your neighbor.

01:00:36

Because those babies, still your neighbor. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not your neighbor.

01:00:42

So again, you're not loving your neighbor. Then you're not, you're therefore not loving God. And a verse

01:00:47

I like to use is in Proverbs 29, where it says, where there's no prophetic vision that people cast off restraint.

01:00:53

And so again, we are called to preach the gospel. We're called to have that prophetic vision.

01:01:00

And the reason the culture is what it is in Ireland and in the United States is because the church has failed to have that prophetic vision into the culture.

01:01:10

So you are now not allowed to have your final word. Only if you desperately want it.

01:01:20

Cool. You weren't imitating me.

01:01:28

There are two O's in cool. There's a double U as well. Is C -I -O -L.

01:01:35

Is this your final word? We're going to, in the last half hour before tea, we're going to do our workshops.