God's Nature vs. Mormonism

Apologia Utah

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I would say we are all his children, and then we choose to follow him or not and based on I mean

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He'll still always love his children want him to come want us To come back to him, but like we could is that anywhere in the

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Bible whatsoever You can probably show me in D &C because you show me anywhere in the Bible Why do you why do you think that why do

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I think why do you think it's not in the Bible? But it is in the DNC the current version of the

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DNC. Yeah. Yeah, so not not I got you Commandments, but actual doctor. Yeah, I would say that just because I Don't believe that Every piece of knowledge there is to know is in the

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Bible that that there's always more to learn And I don't necessarily think that we have to learn everything in this life

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There's many mysteries of godliness like many things. We don't know or like in general Christian theology

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We just don't know how exactly heaven's gonna like it was gonna be gold mansions like there's not that level of necessity

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And I don't really think it's necessary There's like things that are mentioned they're like was that necessary for my salvation

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What is this? To have a firm testimony in Jesus Christ as my savior and to believe in him and accept as my savior and To act on it to to consistently repent.

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No, I'm gonna fail but at least do my best Make up for the rest. So you said in Jesus, right?

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Do you mind if I ask like which Jesus? Yeah, the Jesus of Nazareth Jesus Nazareth.

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Okay, cuz do you think that there are other Jesus's I Think there's only that one figure

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Jesus Christ, but I would also say this world Yeah, yes Right like different saviors for different worlds and that concept totally understand that I don't necessarily

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I mean Is that do you agree with that? Oh, yeah, it is

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Because the whole point is it's supposed to be eternal progression there's gonna be more earths each earth will have to have a savior

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Brigham talks about it quite a bit, but there's other after that I know see you got the smile when I said Brigham I used to be similar

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But no, there's other there's other prophets that have talked about it after Brigham even after polygamy that they've talked about it

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It was a normal doctrine our generations has changed where the

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Theology has changed more and more. I agree kind of packaged it more into a Christian theology and less into a

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Mormon theology The reason I was gonna say the reason I asked which Jesus is because you know Paul says and I believe it's 2nd

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Corinthians and then also Galatians that if someone comes to you and brings another gospel or another Christ Let him be anathema, right?

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And you know, I think it's important to think about like that. There are other Christ's right? And so when you say Jesus of Nazareth, I'll also say

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Jesus of Nazareth, but I two different dictionary terms I'm gonna I'm gonna define it differently because I look at the

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Old Testament and I see that Deuteronomy 6 4 says hero Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one Which kind of is a little different from the way you described

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God and then I also look to Isaiah 41 10 That says before me no God was formed nor shall there be any after me and I know you were talking about being a

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God So the Jesus that I believe in believed all of the words of the Old Testament because he said, you know

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The grass may wither the flower may fade, but my word will stand forever And then those were his words in the Old Testament when he was speaking in Isaiah He's saying before me no

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God was formed nor shall there be any after me. So do you believe that that is? part of Scripture or do you believe that that's not something that you need to follow or great question so I think like regarding like which

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Jesus is worshiped in a sense like I I think that generally like most religions most

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Mainstream religions believe in Jesus, but it will come to the different ways, right? Like it is not he's a prophet

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Avatar Judaism is a false prophet and rise from the dead, right?

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So but it would still be the same Jesus, but if people would choose this That's what he taught as truth and he'd be a sign

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God But then many people, you know, I could say or you can say for a sense like we mistress or miss

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Defined what Jesus is taught and we added two things like with the book of Warren You're like Jesus teaching things right like that would be like a different Like that.

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Well for us, it'd be the same Jesus, but teaching different things So is it that same Jesus I would think in the end for us it would be the same

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Jesus for the God always being Human, I'm sorry for that question. You asked you good.

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Was it that God? Like always Before me no,

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God was Okay, but like again, I have that concept like in my belief that they're separated that that Jesus is the son of so So you would say

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Deuteronomy 6 4 is you read? Yes. So basically Deuteronomy 6 4. He's talking to Israel He's giving that what's called the

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Shema right? Yeah, and he says hero Israel the Lord our God The Lord is one right and that's a clear emphasis on the unity of The Godhead the fact that you know,

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God is one There's there's they're not three gods, but they're God is one right for sure. And so how would you think about that?

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Just like for me. I I interpret this to mean that in every way like imaginable

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The the Godhead the Holy Ghost Jesus Christ and God the Father that they're all unified in every palatable way besides that they're separate beings because again, if we

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Do you believe the Holy Ghost is an actual? I believe he's a figure like like a spirit

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Oh, so you don't you don't believe he's just a accumulation of angels And the chemo

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The Holy Spirit, no, not right. No, just because I'm not as familiar. I'm not trying to trap you

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Yeah, no, no, no, just a figure. I know in Latter -day Saint theology It's like he's a man, but like without a body.

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It depends articles of faith describe it differently But yeah, I was raised to believe that it is

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Another being right whereas earlier theology in the articles of faith that Joseph put together

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You read that no Right, there's no three guys

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I mean like just from what I believe like I believe in every it's only potential way that they're that they are unified in Every way besides they're separate just because in the script in the

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Bible I mean, I'm not familiar with the Book of Mormon on this subject as much but from the

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Bible Jesus the Book of Mormon's in the Bible anyway, sure Jesus is Always saying my god he goes to the garden he says

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You know, I can't remember the phrase, but you brought you're probably familiar with Latter -day Saints using this as an argument

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But when he goes to the garden and he's bleed his tear sweats blood. Yes, and that's the beginning

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Let this cup pass for me, but what he says to God. Yeah, let that. Thank you. I'm sorry No, you're good.

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Oh, you're fine Let this cup pass for me but not my will be done

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Thank you from what that I understand that there's two different wills, right? Cuz like Christ is like hey, like if there's any other way father

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I want this to be another way, but if it can't like your will be done and for me that indicates two different like Concepts of like oh they have two different wills.

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So and that's a very rare instance in most cases I think they're very unified in every other path of the way

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But there's a time where Jesus was suffering where he would if I could speak to that real quick.

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Do you mind? So God is one It's it's this amazing thing where from Genesis to Revelation he speaks emphatically and ontologically

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From the end from the beginning. There is one God that that Isaiah 43 10 that Jacob just said he says before me before me

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There was no God form for sure. Neither shall there be after me. I am the first I'm the last

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There is no other God. He speaks that ontologically in Such a way to say not even simply on this creation not even simply in a sort of dimension

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It's that forever and always in all places I Am the only

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God and so in Scripture regarding the Trinity, it's just there is a mysterious aspect to it

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No doubt, but all at once all at once suspended in midair almost as if It says from the end from the beginning

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It says there is one God only one One will one nature one God then all the same time suspended together

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Not knowing how they connect in our finite minds. The Bible then demonstrates that the

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Father is God Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and yet there's one

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God So what do we do? We don't take our minds and try to reconcile that and think that Well, then maybe there's multiple gods

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That Jesus is an elevated Being who became

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God That the Holy Spirit is possibly a force with some sort of divine nature

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But that just as the Bible presents itself There's all at once one

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God and they are all that one God. So there's the Trinity boom and so what we're saying is is

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That if we say that Jesus is any less than that He says if you do not say that I am

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And that word I am comes from the Hebrew He says it it's recorded there in John in the in the

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Koine Greek, which is a go a me I am that comes from Exodus 3 from the burning bush passage and in Hebrew.

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That's where God says Yahweh I am that I am he identifies himself.

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I'm the only God my name My name is I am Jesus then says if you do not believe that I am you will die in your sins

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In fact, he makes multiple over a dozen statements that he is the

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I am so Now back to the garden question. So all that in mind keep that in the background

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Okay, Jesus says he is the I am that somehow he is at the same level with the father so and and so Jesus As the eternal son of God the eternal son of God the

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Holy Spirit and the Father have always been in co eternality and co equality from all eternity paths unchanging and then

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Yeah, and and so when Jesus I'm sorry. I should say it this way when the eternal son of God came to earth

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He came and in the virgin birth there was what's called the incarnation

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Incarnation means the coming of Jesus. Okay, and so the the eternal son of God became man

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And so this is the most amazing thing. This is actually a theological term. You could look up later

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It's called the hypostatic Union It's once again a mysterious thing that scripture demonstrates that our finite minds can't fully

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I Could give you tons of arguments for the Trinity tons of arguments for the hypostatic Union But all

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I could really point back to you. What's your name? By the way, Wayne? So my name is

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Wade so cool and mill name Michael So so Wade essentially

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What I'm getting at now, I'm losing my frame of mind is is that This hypostatic

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Union, it's quite amazing all at once Jesus on earth Demonstrates that he is

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God from all eternity and Yet he has a human nature and those things don't fuse together

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They don't mix they don't muddle. They are fully separate and they are held together

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It's this hypostatic Union. It's this amazing thing. It's almost like I can't even put it into terms it's like when a when a when a magnet when two magnets come together and When you turn them around when you try to push them together, they don't go together, but somehow they have this force together

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It's like that. It's like Jesus is human nature and divine nature They'll never come together, but it is one block.

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It is who he is. So This points to the garden this points this points to times when

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Jesus is like no I I have not come to do the will of my father My own will but the will of my father who sent me when he says things like not my will

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But we but your will let this cup pass from me. What's Exactly well there he's actually fulfilling

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Psalm 22. He's he's fulfilling Scripture Psalm 22 read that later

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Yeah Psalm 22 so what

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Jesus is saying not that the father and him have had a disconnection It's that he's literally saying hey, you know that Messiah from Psalm 22.

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That's me right now So anyways, it's an identification thing. But essentially what's happening Wade is

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Jesus is is what's having another kind of fancy term. It's called functional subordination

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Jesus is equal with the father. He was he has been the eternal son of God all from eternity past is the one

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God Existing in three persons, but when he came to earth, he received a human nature

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So he like I said the divine and human nature and so it's not the divine nature. That's going not my will father

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But yours it's the human nature. And so it's a functional subordination for the sake of his earthly ministry

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He he's he he had to deal with hunger Wade. He had to deal with Being tired.

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He slept things like that. And yet there's these moments where the divine nature Just shown through he walked on water.

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He calmed a storm He's like he's like the Creator because he is the Creator as Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1 and John 1 says he is the

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Creator He can calm the storm. He can multiply bread supernaturally because he is that God and so what we're saying is there's only ever been one

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God you won't become one and There's not there's not a multiplicity of there's not the multiverse, right?

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I don't mean I don't mean to make that as disrespectfully, but there's not a multiverse. I know you're getting cold, but there is only one

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God and he calls us to turn to him by faith and Then it's not that We have to turn to him and we'll do our best.

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It's that we could never do our best It says that no one is good. We've all fallen short of the glory of God It says not no no one not a single person is good.

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But you know who was good only Jesus So he takes your imperfection and Jesus lived

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Perfection and it says especially in Paul's epistles that he applies that perfection onto your account

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So your account Wade is full of all these sins from the moment you were born And in fact, you were born in Adam, which means you have a sinful disposition you have all this stuff on your account and you're gonna face

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God one day and You will you will have to give an account for what's all on that account and and he will say can you offer up payment?

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He said I don't have anything to pay for this. You have nothing to pay That it's gonna require your life for all eternity in hell

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And that's this is the thing that I can't imagine on my worst enemy, right? But here's the thing if we trust in Jesus that true

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Jesus of the Bible Who is God from all eternity who's not created not an elevated being because then he couldn't really die

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First for sinners a man can't die for sinners. He just loses his life And not even an elevated demigod or or whatever

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Gee Jesus then if you believe on him You believe on his perfection and that he died

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He was buried and he rose again on the third day Proving he has conquered death in the grave that he is who he says he is.

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He is the I am because only God Could have power over death and so he can't he come back

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He was raised and if you believe in this then Jesus will say Yes on the final day of judgment

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Wade has all this stuff on his account and it is tremendous. And yes, it'll take all eternity in hell to pay for it

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But but Jesus says on that cross to tell us I in John in the

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Greek that means it is finished It is over and if you believe on that Christ Then that account is actually wiped away and the father will look at Jesus's account

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Which is perfection and it'll be applied to you Oh, I see that it was paid for and what we're concerned about for you guys is is that?

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Jesus says that his church has began on him him and the Apostles and On that teaching on that gospel on that rock and on that church and the church has started from the first century and gone forth but Joseph Smith in the 1800s made a little tributary line off of the the

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Church of God and In that line, he's preached false prophecies. There's been false prophets of the other presidents.

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There's been weird doctrines There's been weird history racism exclusivism exclusivism

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To people of different races But there is this main line of Christianity and we're calling you guys back to go.

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Okay We've believed on something that is wrong Jesus is in the name the name of our religion but we haven't actually believed in the one whom he is presented as he is presented in his word and so that's the call of the gospel and if you're willing to do that if God has put that in your heart and He's bringing you to himself today

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Then I can promise you as a pastor of a church and as people as part of that church We will walk it with you every step of the way to lose to leave

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Mormonism In this culture is to lose a lot friendship reputation job possibly inheritance by parents

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But Jesus says what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world which includes all those things but loses his own soul

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You see you've been sold something and I think you're you're you're partially a victim

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But partially we're self -deluding as well, but you've been sold a false religion

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And I don't say that lightly and I don't say that to disrespect you But I say that because we truly do love you

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I wouldn't leave my my daughter and my wife to come stand here in the cold if I didn't believe that so I'll stop talking

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At this point, but that's that's a call Yeah, yeah Okay Okay Yeah, I just I told you

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I believe like of course like we have a disagreement regarding how to have the

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Godhead works right But for me like the mystery of godliness and Christ Jesus the eternal

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Son of God always Being unified with God in the examples you gave like I totally believe in that But for me that still means that there is a

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I still believe in the differentiation like that There's separate beings but with one purpose. Yes, but and I understand there's like a mystery like a

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I don't know I mean, there's an answers like that. We're coming up with right? We're trying to explain this phenomenal concept of God, but of course

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Like for everything I have I go one direction and say oh, well I think that that two examples

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I gave regarding Jesus pointing like my God is out forsaken me or like my like Fallbacks for like defending my belief right?

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Whereas like you guys have provided good scriptures to support your beliefs And I totally like understand that and that's where I would like disagree like just like agree to disagree

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I guess but I totally support like what you guys are doing. Actually, is this apology? Yeah. Yeah Yeah, okay

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Hey Craig, can you get my jacket real quick? Do you want to keep this

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Okay, I just feel I see you shivering yeah because you could even take it if you need it

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Okay Okay Okay, yeah keeps keep looking man keep watching the videos, yeah

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If you ever want to get lunch all that you talk more My number the number there the email there

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The church is based out of South Jordan up in Salt Lake County. So yeah, you're welcome to chat any time

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Wow cool right on man Yeah, we appreciate all your time yeah wait, all right take care