Gay Latter Day Saint Denies the Gospel

Apologia Utah

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Not even just the word arsonic boy tastes and eyes that but the fact that it doesn't only list sexuality itself, but it also lists the

00:12

More feminine Side of a homosexual relationship condemns that as well

00:19

So if you're gonna say it's a pederasty thing Then you're gonna have to turn around and say that God is also condemning those boys from being sexually slaves of higher

00:28

Of people which I think we both disagree with right? They're victims. Yeah that point.

00:33

Yeah, they're absolutely victims Anyone that's in that situation male or female as a victim so that's not gonna condemn them

00:41

But what's great about first Corinthians 6 9 through 11 when it lists those sins in this stuff and in all kinds of other stuff

00:50

It's a it's all of those are a lifestyle the drunkenness the thievery all those things The beauty of it is that it's comma such were

01:00

Past tense some of you and so I can tell you from my personal experience right now that it's a contradiction in terms to say that I'm a

01:12

Christian in the same way. It's a contradiction in terms for me to say that I'm a pornography Or a drunkard or any of those things?

01:19

I'm a drunk Those are contradictions in terms But the beauty of the gospel the real gospel

01:26

The LDS gospel because there's still work involved in that is that the grace of God is

01:32

Sufficient to do enough work Philippians 1 6 says that he who starts a good work in you will finish it

01:38

He's Jesus Oh, praise

01:44

God Thank you, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith.

01:49

It's all the work is on him For that we're not working our way through a progression and so my call to you would be to repent of Sexual acts that you do that are outside of God's law

02:05

Just like I repented of the ones that I was doing outside of God's law, right? And that's not to condemn you or to make myself seem self -righteous

02:13

But it's it's to tell you that there is a power a supernatural power outside of us

02:18

God can take your heart of stone and remove it and replace it with a heart of flesh And you can be changed in an instant as I was

02:27

And you can live a godly life Through the power of God itself so Steve make sure

02:38

I'm understanding you correct me what you're saying. You're saying through the grace of God Yes, I can be changed from gay to straight, correct.

02:47

I Disagree with you on that Why? What's your experience? Okay, well,

02:54

I have a personal experience is the exact opposite of yours right now as we speak So that kind of puts us in the same boat again.

03:01

So now we have to depend on what foundation for truth My foundation for truth is my experiences that can you trust those experiences in all instances?

03:13

Yeah, you can't my experiences I mean what is to say that I can trust your experiences

03:19

I'm not telling you to trust my experiences I'm saying we both have experiences that have opposite results and therefore we have to appeal to something outside of us in order to Define what truth actually is

03:30

And I'm going to tell you that that basis of truth is the revealed Word of God minus Program price

03:41

Obviously So what about a

03:47

Muslim who would say I Have an experience. I have a personal experience and I I want to kill the infidel

03:55

My experience is that they are traitors to the Quran and I want to kill the

04:00

Western Man, and so that's his personal experience. That's that's what he wants to do.

04:05

That's what he feels is his truth So would he be wrong? Would he be wrong is the question?

04:12

right And and he would according to the Word of God the Word of God says you shall not murder

04:19

And he also says you shall have no other gods before me And so they're worshiping a false God and they want to commit murder.

04:26

So we come to that objective solid standard Something that is outside of our experiences personal feelings.

04:34

I mean when I was a young man, I was addicted to pornography I wanted to do this.

04:40

I was drinking all the time and and they felt right to me in the moment

04:45

But when God saved me again, he gave me a new heart changed all that desire what we're trying to To show you is that the

04:55

Bible demonstrates again that you don't have an You don't have like an identity crisis where it's like am

05:04

I a LDS? Gay gay Mormon or something like that Gay Christian things like that.

05:11

That's not the identity issue. The identity issue is sinner and believer sinner and believer so You're in sin right now according to the

05:22

Word of God not even by my own opinion the Word of God says you're in sin based off of your lifestyle and beliefs and that you need to repent and turn to the one true

05:31

Christ of Scripture and find healing and restoration and We have seen testimonies of even you know

05:39

Homosexual men who have had what they thought was something they were born with Fully changed they even have wives now and children and desires fully changed

05:50

Right if you read first, I'm sorry Romans chapter 1 it talks about the progression of how you know even as a society we can get to homosexuality and So check that out sometime

06:04

Romans chapter 1 it says, you know that basically we sin so much That we've turned away from God that God has led us over to a depraved mind to do unnatural things so that men lie with men and women lie with women and Again, these aren't even my words what

06:20

I want for you is What the Bible says and the hope that is offered in the

06:25

Bible through Jesus Christ So like your contention wouldn't even be with us or anything like that We want the best for you.

06:34

And that's what Christ has to offer salvation. So what do you think about all that?

06:42

I Think It's clear that you believe what you believe, okay, and I think it's clear that we have different beliefs

06:49

Okay, and though my belief is not going to change. Okay, your belief is not going to change

06:54

I respect you guys greatly for coming out here. You know, I was planning on going on a mission for various reasons

07:00

That didn't happen. Okay, I commend it. It's hard It's not an easy thing to do so I do but I do disagree with you in my own personal beliefs for my own reasons

07:10

So, okay, that's not gonna change. Do you do you ever feel? Despair, do you ever feel down about the sin that that is come upon you?

07:20

It brings you happiness it brings you joy I do I'm happy with my life, okay Yeah, I I was more miserable when

07:27

I had the belief that I could change myself, but it was a sin Yeah, and that was what made me uncomfortable.

07:33

That's what made me hate myself. Sure. What made me okay idol And so as far as I'm concerned, we wouldn't want that Yeah, exactly as far as I'm concerned when

07:40

I turn to those ideas, those are what hurt me. So from my experiences

07:48

Me being gay me having that identity is what's saving my life and what's keeping me happy okay, and I can only speak for my experiences and You know, that is me.

07:59

That is 100 % me and You can speak for your experiences So this is one thing where we will just have to agree to disagree on well,

08:09

I I'll say one last thing if I can the reason I would say I have to believe this that you felt those feelings that you felt suicidal like you felt the weight of the rules and Everything was because you're in a false church.

08:26

See there. There is what's called the grace of God and in the LDS Church heaps

08:33

Condemnation and rules and laws and it says even the Articles of Faith. It says that we will be saved by Adhering to and submitting to the rules and laws and ordinances of the gospel

08:44

But the gospel is that Jesus came he died. He paid the penalty

08:50

He took the wrath of the father that we deserve upon that cross He absorbed the wrath that was meant for us for the sins that we committed and then he was buried

08:59

He rose again proving his death over the grave. So when he resurrected he showed I Offer eternal life.

09:07

I have power over death in the grave. He said now all who believe in me By faith and repentance will have eternal life that there's no longer any condemnation for those found in Christ And so when you have the authentic gospel when you have not a false gospel in a false religion

09:23

Those desires will be inherent you'll they won't feel like rules.

09:28

They won't feel like Statutes that you're trying to begrudgingly follow like I'm not good enough

09:33

I'll never look good in front of my bishop in front of my peers I'll never I'm not good enough to be on mission because obviously

09:39

I'm having these feelings, you know for For the same sex and stuff. What we're trying to say is when you submit to the true

09:45

Christ and to the true gospel those things, you know, they wouldn't go away overnight, you know, just like a heterosexual

09:53

Christian man who struggled with you know Fornication and had sex with women prior

10:00

Christ gives him the gift of repentance and faith and he's putting that to death daily And obviously he a man can still deal with feelings of you know, lust and stuff like that But that's something that he's going

10:12

God. I don't desire this I want to follow you and I pray that you give me a wife one day and all that and so those are the rewiring of the desires that the true gospel gives so again my

10:22

My understanding based off of the truth of the Bible would be that What you were experiencing were the rules of a system and an organization where you couldn't earn your own salvation

10:34

You couldn't follow the rules good enough But Christ did follow the rules good enough and he did pay it all and if we believe on him and his work his grace

10:44

Which is unmerited favor. It's a free gift of God when we believe on Christ That's what we receive and we receive mercy and with that comes a changed heart

10:53

Comes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it comes with new desires. He says in Romans chapter 6

10:58

Paul says Shall we keep on sinning that grace may abound and he says may it never be

11:04

How can we who have died to Christ continue to live in it? And he calls us to now walk in the newness of life.

11:10

So I know I Know even looking at your body language. You're saying this guy's got his beliefs.

11:15

I've got mine, but think about it sometime Think about what we're saying think about the fact that you were in a system and what we're trying to share with you is the true gospel that offers liberty and life and freedom and That even homosexuality is bondage.

11:31

It's slavery. It's late. It says it's slavery to sin We don't want that for you

11:39

In some ways I do agree with you because the LDS Church teaches many similar ideas behind These as you refer to them restricting rules are not restricting rules, but they are things given to us by God to make us free

11:54

That's what I've been taught all through primary Okay, so I do agree There is that sense of there are certain things that if I do these things they provide me with freedom.

12:03

They don't take that freedom away and I think that You know,

12:10

I can fully respect that I just I don't fully agree with you on Perhaps Your interpretation of how

12:19

I think there's a minute distinction here that might need to be addressed You said that one you you implied in your earlier statement.

12:27

You said I didn't feel like I could change myself which Maybe it was just a slip of the tongue

12:34

Maybe it didn't really mean a whole lot but that sounds to me is like trying to live under the oppressive law

12:43

White knuckle it I won't be gay. I won't be gay sort of thing, right? We're saying that's not what happens in Christ There these things are given to us if I do them

12:56

I'll be free Is that what

13:03

I'm interpreting That does sound correct. Yes. Okay. So does that mean that? The law of the gospel or however, it's worded in LDS doctrine

13:12

The law of the gospel is something that you have to do and if you do those things you will then be free

13:20

Is that fair? I? Think it is a lot more complex than that.

13:26

I think that is a very simplified Way of explaining it but in general I would say that is a simplified general

13:34

Explanation of it's that I would say for the most part. Okay, that's all I'm trying to get it So what we're saying and this is the distinction

13:40

I was getting at what we're saying is it's not that you do those things that free You the supernatural work of Christ in the spirit within your heart frees you and then your desires

13:51

Just as his desire my desire were completely changed You naturally the natural outworking of that freedom in your heart is that your desires change and you want to do

14:04

What the law says not because it's a set of rules that you must follow in order to be free But that it's now a set of rules and the guideline for you to glorify

14:14

Christ in this world not for yourself in any way Yeah, it's not to gain freedom. It's that you are free.

14:19

And so there you desire to do them And I do agree with that. Okay, I think that that is a very okay I correction nation and I think that's where the complexities come from is that we're told we should

14:30

Wow, that's not even the correct way to say it No, so yes, I do agree with you and I think that that is the same principles that the church teaches or my church teaches and has evolved to Teach that and as they have come to better under do you still go to?

14:46

Sacrament meetings and stuff like that. Yeah completely out. My bishop knows I hold a calling right?

14:51

I have a temple recommend. Okay, I don't feel Oppressed in any way. Do you think sure sure.

14:57

Do you think we might even see? LGBT leadership pretty soon bishops and stuff like that or not soon not soon

15:05

I don't believe that that is gospel or even necessarily the church related. I think that is from the biases

15:12

Run the church and that is not to say the church isn't true. We it's a church run by imperfect people

15:19

It's a perfect God, but they're imperfect and God does the best to get his work done through imperfect

15:25

Okay, but they're still people they still have biases and I think those affected so I have my own personal beliefs regarding lgbtq issues and Identities that even are separate from the church that I've made very clear.

15:38

I don't entirely agree with everything the church teaches Yeah, yeah obvious reasons

15:48

Yeah at the end of the day I really do need to get going okay the day I respect everything that yeah

15:54

If you if you ever had questions, I have my email here if you ever wanted to just Okay, I'm not a big

16:02

Bible bash I don't enjoy Conversations like that. I do. Okay. Enjoy.

16:07

I did enjoy listening to your interpretations of it Cuz I do believe there's things that we can learn from every religion. Sure, you know,

16:13

I really appreciate your guys's Interpretation that I think it's taking a long time for the

16:18

LDS church to get to yeah You do these things because you want to ship or you are free and so you choose to do these things to show your devotion to God whereas I do think many people within the church, even if it's not necessarily the doctrine the church teaches has the idea that You will you do those things and be sure so I yeah,

16:39

I enjoy the conversation because I enjoy expanding down my mind, but It's nothing that I'm gonna come.

16:45

Yeah, and and I'll say one last thing and this is it for me I know you got to get going. It's just again.

16:50

Your contention is not with our interpretation or opinion You are you are you are contending with the

16:56

Living God who who when you read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? Sodom and Gomorrah rained down fire and brimstone on a city that was practicing things that you endorsed

17:06

Right and then Scripture Romans 1 1st Corinthians 6 In the epistle of Timothy things even in Leviticus 18.

17:15

It says it is an abomination, right? And so I don't even I don't even want to nail on that because it's not even just about that right

17:23

That's a very visible sin And and so there's people walking down the street that are doing things that we don't know about and it still

17:33

Puts them at enmity between a holy God. So again at the end of the day We want you to look at the scriptures and see that Again it is through Christ that you can have reconciliation that you can have forgiveness and that he calls

17:47

What you call your happiness and the most joy that you get out of he calls it an abomination.

17:53

So remember that right? That's that's what he calls it. And so we love you, man We appreciate your time too and just really hope you consider like sometime what we've said tonight.

18:04

So I'll think about it, but it's not that I'm going to change my minds on okay