The REAL Conclusion to Leeman's Disaster Interview

The Problem of Social Capital and World-Pleasing Leadership

All right, well, we're gonna jump right back into this. I said yesterday was the conclusion, but a lot of you reached out and wanted me to finish this bad boy up, so I will. And I'm having a great time with this, I really am.

I think that there are, to borrow a phrase from that great President Barack Obama, there were a bunch of teachable moments in this video. And so I'm very glad to see how God is using this interview. I've made no bones about it.

Jonathan Lehman is out to lunch on this. He's simply out to lunch on this. He's not willing to go where he needs to go in order to have biblical answers for these questions. He wants to have answers that will, frankly, please the world.

That's what this whole social capital thing is all about. It's about people pleasing. It's about world pleasing. It's about not wanting to be the enemy, the stick in the mud all the time with the world.

And the reality is that we're in a culture that that's just gonna have to be the case. You're going to always be that stick in the mud because basically the pagans have gone full on crazy at this point.

Before we jump into this and continue and finally conclude this epic interview, I do want to draw your attention to a fundraiser for a good brother, Kofi Adu-Boahen. Kofi Adu-Boahen's brother lost his house in the Oregon fires just the other day.

And it's just a very sad situation. He's got a little family. There's his wife and his little kid. I'm gonna blur them out probably just because I keep maintaining this guy's privacy. But I'm gonna include the link to the GoFundMe in the comment section here.

Not the comment section, the description of this video. Please consider if you have funds available to donate to this emergency fund. He's gonna have a lot of things that he needs to replace. And this guy's a good guy.

There's just no question about it. This guy's a good guy. So yeah, pray for the guy, pray for his family, pray for all the people that have lost their houses in this situation. And please consider sending a little moolah his way, a little, some stacks, send some stacks his way.

Yeah, definitely. While you're at it, send him some stacks. Maybe send him a little drip. You know, stuff like that. Oh, by the way, you might be hearing a chicken back there. That's the sound they make when they're laying an egg.

So I'm about to get some food up in here. Anyway, let's jump right back into this bad boy. But you're saying it shouldn't be? All right, so if you remember, the brothers were asking Jonathan Lehman if the death penalty should be on the table for people who procure abortions.

Capital Punishment for Abortion and the Duty to Answer

And the answer to this question is very easy. It's an emotional question because we think of all the women that would involve, but it's an easy answer. And Jonathan Lehman has said that the verse that talks about capital punishment is valid.

And he also draws all kinds of implications from it. But for some reason, he can't draw people who kill their own children in the womb should be potentially given the death penalty if the crime of murder is proven according to two or more witnesses, all the whole nine yards.

He says it shouldn't be on the table because frankly, that sounds kind of mean. That's really, if he was honest with himself, that's basically what he would say. It sounds a little mean.

I'm saying, honestly, brothers, I've never thought about this particular question. I'd be reluctant to rush out and speak in a matter I've not given, frankly, any thought to. My instinct is to say, no, I don't think she would be, should be.

I'm gonna stop him right there because I personally do not believe Jonathan Lehman. I know that people are gonna say, love believes all things. I know people are gonna say that I'm supposed to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is, giving people the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean that you just suspend all rationality and reason, right?

Jonathan Lehman has written two books about politics. He's written about abortion. He was alive a few years ago when Donald Trump accidentally said something about death penalty for abortion, and that was a big controversy.

He was alive back then, so presumably he thought about it then. He's saying he's not put any thought into what the penalty for abortion should be. So I've got a couple options here. Either he's completely in, he's given up his duties as a pastor to have put zero thought into this because I believe him when he says any thought.

He's either lying or he's not, so let's just say I believe him. He's put zero thought into this. Well, he should be ashamed of himself for having put zero thought into this, having written two books about the topic and being a pastor in the United States where we kill more babies than forever and supposedly pro-life, but what does pro-life mean if there's no way to actually enforce you criminalizing abortion and all this?

Does he even want to criminalize abortion? Like, he's put some thought into this or he's put zero thought. Either way, he's either lying or he's just completely given up his duties. He's derelict on duty.

He should have been at his post and he decided to go AWOL instead. Those are the options. I'm sorry. Like, I know some of you guys like Jonathan Lehman. I get it. I'm not saying you don't have to like him, but this is pathetic.

I've given zero thought into this. My goodness gracious.

My instinct is to say that there's gonna be a number of other considerations at play that should weigh into that particular judgment.

Okay, you know, Jonathan He's gotta be totally pro-life. What about abortion doctors? This is just not something I've given much thought to. Okay, so he hasn't given much thought to it. He's given zero thought, in fact, he said.

And his instinct is, of course, the liberal version of being against abortion. His instincts are liberal. Okay, great. So the boys, see, they're much better at interviews than I am so they're gonna drop that for a second and they're gonna move on to something easier, right?

So it's easier to decide, should the abortion doctor be given the death penalty for being a murder for hire, right? Murderer for hire. That's what they call this, murder for hire. So he's trying to make it a little easier.

These guys are winsome, man, I'm telling you. They're looking for some kind of ground here with Jonathan Lehman. They're looking for some agreement. They've been doing this the entire interview. They've been desperate to find some common ground with Jonathan Lehman.

So listen to what Knox has to say.

What about abortion doctors? Would you say that they are easily committing murder?

They should be tried for murder? An abortion, no, an abortion doctor. Yeah, again, I'm reluctant to step into territory I've not really thought about, but in my mind, that would make a clearer, if one is to make a case for that,.

Yeah, one could more clearly, I think, make it for the abortion doctor. Oh my goodness gracious. They've made it as easy as possible. Okay, so the poor woman, victim, you know, my woman, you know, kind of thing.

You're a white knight. We get it, Jonathan. Okay, I'm not gonna push you there anymore, but what about the guy who's actually doing it? Like, you know, the guy who kind of like halfway pulls out the baby and it slices the neck off or the guy who injects the burning fluid or the guy who, you know, that, like, what about that guy?

Like, what about the Kermit Gosnell, right? Like that guy? Is that guy, I mean, they're trying to make it easy on him. And Jonathan is hemming and hawing and stuff. Like guys, do not listen to Jonathan Lehman about morality, about justice.

He has no freaking clue what he's talking about. He can't even say that the guy who pulls the baby halfway out, chops his head off, decapitates him. That, he can't even say that one deserves the death penalty.

It's funny because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry. This guy's a leader, man. He's a leader in the church. He's on the forefronts of the fight for justice in the church. He doesn't know what justice is. He's still hemming and hawing.

They've made it as easy as they possibly could make it. And he still doesn't know. He can find the capital punishment verse, the right to cancel church, but he can't find the death penalty for people who kill babies.

But genuinely guys, you can keep pushing. You might find that some inconsistencies in what I say. I've just not thought through this topic. It's not an inconsistency.

It's a complete derelict of duty. It's just you have, you face planted. There's no, it's not an inconsistency. It's a face plant, my friend. And I don't believe you. I know people are going to say, you shouldn't, you don't know his heart.

You shouldn't, you shouldn't believe the worst about him. I'm not believing the worst about him. I'm believing what's the most reasonable. He has thought about this and he doesn't want to answer. That's why he's saying, if you are guys keep pushing, but I'm not.

Like he just doesn't want to answer. He doesn't want to have to answer this. This is a coward. Jonathan, I know you don't like me. It's okay. You are a coward and there is a way out of cowardice. Okay, there's a way out.

You don't have to be a coward like this. You know what I mean? Like so much of a coward that in my opinion, you're pretending like you've never thought about this to get a way out of answering it. Like that's a very good strategy.

Cause like I've never thought about some things, right? And if I don't want to answer a question that I've never, that is like unpopular or something like that, and I've never thought of it, that's a good way out.

Like, it's like, oh yeah, I've never really thought about that one. Like, sometimes, I remember one time I, when I was first learning about the law of God, I was, someone asked me about the Leverite marriage thing.

Am I saying that right? Leverite marriage, where like the guy dies and then his brother marries the wife and stuff like that. I didn't want to answer it. Like I could have tried because, you know, I could read the passage and try to work my way through it, but I didn't want to answer it.

And I had never really thought about how that would apply in the modern context. That's just very disconnected from our context today, right? I mean, I think we would all agree that it's very disconnected from our context today.

So that's what I said. That was my way out. I've never really thought about it. I wouldn't want to venture a guess, but see that was legitimately, I'd never thought of it. So maybe he's legitimately never thought of it.

Like that would be believing all things, but the best case scenario is he's in derelict of duty at this point because this is a relevant topic. It is supremely relevant. I can't think of a more relevant justice issue than this one.

And so if he's really never thought of it, which I do not believe, I'm sorry, I just don't. If he's really never thought of it, this is a real problem.

I guess it seems, it just, I mean, I appreciate that, Jonathan. And I know like we've all got, you know, areas where we focus on and I And we haven't thought through.

I totally understand that. Listen, I don't think that the guys believe him either, but they're not the kind of guy to just say that. You know what I mean? They're not going to just say that.

Same time, I guess it just, it sort of surprises me that in a culture that's killed 65 million babies where, you know, the highest murder rate in our country is the murder of babies. And we have Hermit Gosnells and we have these people, you know, and governors talking about, you know, full term, you know, let them be born and let them die kind of thing.

I guess somebody who's so familiar with Genesis 9, it would be like, sort of like,.

I mean, isn't that where it applies? This is the winsome way to say exactly what I just said. This is the most relevant justice issue of our time. It's the single most relevant justice issue of our time.

There is no bigger injustice in the world right now, especially in the United States than this one. And he's saying he hasn't thought about it. But he has thought deeply about the verse that basically sets up capital punishment, Genesis chapter 9.

He's thought about that, but he's never thought about this. I mean, I don't, again, I haven't talked to Toby. I haven't talked to any of these guys. But that's like the winsome way of saying, Jonathan, I don't believe you, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that's exactly what he's saying, but in my opinion, that's what he was saying. But I'll just say it, Jonathan, I don't believe you. I think you're lying. I think you're trying to weasel your way out of answering that question because you knew it wouldn't make you look good.

People would be very upset. I can't believe, I know that's the real reason. And frankly, that's why I called you a snake, like a hundred times. That's why I did it. I don't think, I'm not sorry. I don't regret it.

I will not take it back. And that's the reality. You're a snake and a coward. And I think this part of the interview proves it beyond any reasonable doubt. I think any reasonable person would know that you have actually thought about this.

And also, likewise, any reasonable person that believes you haven't probably knows that you should have by now. But I await your article coming out. I await your article coming out. Now that you have thought about it, I certainly await your position paper on this one.

The blood has been shed.

Old Covenant Law, Creation Covenant, and the Goodness of God's Law

Yeah, certainly that would be one and probably crucial, maybe a determinative principle to bring to bear. I would just want to ask the question, are there other principles from scripture that we would want to bring into this conversation?

And I've just, I'm just sitting here all by my lonesome at my desk. I haven't thought through the entire conversation, what other principles we might bring to bear.

Well, I think you brought up a You can press me, brothers,.

You can press me on that one verse and say, doesn't this verse apply? And I'm going to say, yeah, it does,.

But there might be other I'm not a expert on body language, but he's angry. He's angry. He sees, you know, starting to point at the camera. That's what you do when you're angry, you know? And he's very animated here.

By the way, here's something that I noticed yesterday. Is there not a strong physical resemblance between Jonathan Lehman and Michael Foster? There's a strong physical resemblance here. Look at this. They could be cousins or brothers or something.

They really could. I don't know.

Verses that don't apply too, just, I just have not been given the opportunity to think

If Michael Foster didn't have hair, I think that there'd be a very strong resemblance here. Which is interesting, because Michael Foster is the opposite of a snake. So there you go. It's like, maybe it's like bizarro Michael.

Jonathan Lehman is like bizarro Michael Foster. You brought up a good distinction earlier,.

Where I think we do disagree on how we apply the Old Testament now. And I guess Well, I said the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant, sure. Yeah, this is ridiculous. I made a tweet about this, where he like trying to make this distinction. And there is a technical distinction there, that's true. But this is like talking to a lawyer who's like picking apart your grammar.

And I didn't say that. Like, you knew what he was saying. It's just, you could see he's on the ropes. He's on the defense. He's very upset. And so he's gonna lawyer Gabe to death here. It's just so pathetic.

It really is. This is when you know, when someone starts doing this to you, you know there's really no debate there. You can't really, there's nothing to say. There's nothing to say. You should probably just cool it.

And then we'll talk later kind of thing. I've done this. I lawyer people when I'm getting all frustrated. You know what I mean? It's just no question about it. Not an expert on this kind of thing, but that's what it certainly seems like to me.

Look at me, still pointing.

Creation covenant through Noah, I think remains pertinent and relative to understanding the work of the government. Right. It's given to humanity in common.

So I just, the basic principle that we're landing on is like God's law is good. Even as you know, Jesus Christ died and rose again. And what that law looks like on the other side of the cross, we wanna lean into and find our wisdom and principles in God's law because it's good.

Even the Levitical laws are good. And that's where, far better than man's law. I mean, we're living out Leviticus right now in our culture where the government's telling us.

To wear a mask. I prefer God's Levitical laws over ours. He agrees that the law is good. He just doesn't want any of it applied. I'm a brother. I believe, I agree with you. The law is good, but just don't try to apply it.

Don't try to apply it at all. Oh wow.

Oh man. Our government Levitical laws right now. Any day. All right. Turn the corner here a little bit. I know we're taking, we're way over time here. You're being very gracious. Yeah, way over time, but.

Seriously, okay, can I just say, I asked myself beforehand, what is it we're gonna talk about in this thing? I wonder. I did not anticipate capital punishment for abortion.

That did not cross my mind. But you thought about Leviticus 18, sex with animals?

You guys are wincing, man. And this is why they get the interviews that I'll never get. And I'm okay with that. That's not my role, whatever. I'm okay with that. I'll be in the steel cage death match at some point in my life, I'm sure.

But they're doing the preliminary stuff. And this is necessary, guys. Had this conversation not happened, we'd be in a much worse position, I think, than we are today, as a reformed evangelical church.

So I'm grateful. I'm grateful for this other approach here. Because you notice, none of them were calling him a snake. None of them were doing that. They're laughing together. All that kind of stuff. And this is good stuff, man.

This is good stuff. I have zero problem with this approach. Zero problem. Because there's no compromise with these guys. And yet, they can try to cultivate a friendship. And maybe they'll even have another conversation.

I kind of doubt it, based on how this one has gone. But good on these guys. Brothers, if you watch this, I love you guys. I'll tell you in person in a few weeks. And thank you for this. Thank you so much for this.

I appreciate it.

Voting, Slaveholding, and Biblical Qualifications for Leadership

And we'll continue. All right. All right, Pastor Jonathan, can a Christian vote for Joe and Kamala in November? For Joe and Kamala?

I would say that a Christian should not vote for Joe and Kamala. Yeah.

This is the easiest question anyone's ever been asked. So they've moved from very difficult questions, I guess, to a very easy question. They're all easy, but that's fine. But good, he got it right. Yeah, you shouldn't vote for Joe and Kamala.

I would love to have seen an explanation as to specifically why. But he got the right answer. Yes, a Christian cannot vote for Kamala and Joe Biden and legitimately claim the name of Christ. They should be church disciplined.

Okay, I'll go a step further. You promote Kamala and Joe, little Joe Biden, you should be starting the steps of church discipline today. I don't see any way around that biblically. I do not see any way around that biblically.

So that's a good answer. Well done. Credit where credit is due. I would have loved to have seen an explanation there, but it looks like they're kind of wrapping up this interview.

Could a Christian vote for a slave owner like Thomas Jefferson?

This is a great question. This is a fantastic question. Let's let Jonathan answer and then I'll give you my take.

I would say a Christian should not vote for a slave owner. Oh, okay. This is seriously like pop quiz hour.

This is awesome, I agree. And so should a Christian vote for a slave owner? And then he said like Thomas Jefferson. Now, I don't know the specifics on Thomas Jefferson. I'm not a student of history in that way.

And exactly what his role was, what kind of slaves he owned, how he treated them, how he got them, things like that. So there's nuance here and I insist on nuance here. However, if it was a slave that was kidnapped from their home and sold and stuff like that, I actually agree with this.

I would say today if Donald Trump owned slaves, for example, yeah, a Christian shouldn't vote for a slave holder. I agree with this. I agree with this. In fact, I applaud the Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States back in slave times when they said a slave holder can't be an elder because these slaves were kidnapped.

Like it's not just any slave. Look, there's differences between slaves, right? But specifically kidnapped people, people that were man stolen. That was a death penalty offense and should be a death penalty offense.

Jonathan Lehman probably wouldn't say so. But if you kidnap someone today and you're caught and the evidence of two or more witnesses, you should be given the death penalty. It's a death penalty offense.

It's serious, guys. I agree with this. I agree with this. Does this make Thomas Jefferson the worst person in the world? No, it does not. No, it does not. But here's the reality. I actually agree with this.

I wouldn't vote and I don't think a Christian should vote for a slave holder today. I just don't think so. I mean, good answer, Jonathan. Good answer.

I gotta follow up to this. What questions are gonna come up on the test next? This one, this one.

Are you not a teacher of the law? Would Philemon be allowed in nine marks? There you go.

There you go. This is a great question too. Let's see how he answers it. Depends on how it responds to Paul. Yeah, that's a good point.

That's a good, that's good, that's good. Oh man, we could keep going for a long time here. Do you guys, I think we hit him. He's gotta go get his kids. When you get some of these figured out.

And you're working through some of these, would you like to come back on and maybe talk about some of those a little more? Because I'd love to extend this conversation if you would like. Let me think about that.

He hasn't thought about that one either. I wasn't prepared for that question, so I'm just gonna need to ask myself which biblical principle. At least you're being consistent. Love your neighbor. Love your neighbor.

Let me put it this way. Let me put it this way. I enjoyed the conversation with you guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate your, here's what's awesome about what you're doing. You're trying to insist on biblical faithfulness.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Appreciate that.

Well, and we love the interaction we've had with you. Toby's love. Oh, there we go. He froze up. He froze up. Oh, he's back.

Hey, Jonathan, hold on right there. We're gonna come right back after this and we're gonna talk to you in a second. One Cross Politic coming up next. Hi. I don't think he ever comes back after that.

I just looked. So he just bounced. I love classical conversations. My son just started classical conversations yesterday. He's pumped about it and it was a great time. So good stuff here. Anyway, yeah, great interview.

Great interview. It was very revealing. I think that, let me say this. Let me close with this. I have had more people reach out to me about this series that I've done here, about Jonathan Lehman, than I have about anybody, including Tim Keller, including Matt Chandler, including Russell Moore, including anything I've ever done.

And people are just, people are a little discombobulated right now. They really are, I'll be honest. I'll be honest. They're just wondering how has this happened, right? How is Jonathan Lehman finding all kinds of weirdness out of the verses in the Bible that teach capital punishment?

You know, like the government has a right to close down your church. The government has a right to force you to not sing, to wear a mask, whatever it is. But you can't find death penalty for abortionists.

Like how have we gotten to the place where that somehow makes sense? And this is not coming from just someone in the pew. This is a leader. This is a pastor. This is a person who's written many, many books, many, many words on the issues that he's talking about here.

And now he's pretending like he's never thought about them before, or maybe he hasn't never thought about them before. How has this happened? And people are discombobulated. And they're like, man, I'm not a theonomist, but like that was bad.

And guys, let me just close with this. God, Christ's people hear his voice. And God speaks to us today. He's not silent. There's a lot of people that wanna pretend like God is silent on today's issues.

And that is a lie. I would recommend that you do not pay one iota of attention to anyone talking about justice who thinks that somehow God has been silent on so many of the issues that are pertinent for us today on the topic of justice.

If you listen to Lehman on justice, I think you're crazy. I think you gotta get your head examined. Something has happened there. I don't know what. I think he wants to be popular. I think he doesn't wanna offend people.

That's why he can't say that abortionists or women who procure abortions should get the death penalty even though so clearly the Bible says that they should. It's a position that doesn't, you don't make friends with a position like that.

I mean, trust me, you don't make friends having a position like that. But we need to spurn friendship with the world. You know what I mean? We don't need it. It's not helpful. And it will take us down, my friends.

It'll take us down. So how do you avoid this? Well, you study the real thing. Forget, you don't have to study every counterfeit that comes along. The next Jamar Tisby book that comes out, you don't have to run out and buy it to see if it's good.

No, you just have to study the scripture. Study that word. Read that word. If you can't study it, just read it. It's okay. I think people sometimes get this impression they gotta get my dictionary out and I gotta get my Greek grammar out and stuff like that.

Okay, if you can do that, fine. If that's you, if that's your stage in life and your capabilities, that's fine. But just reading it, guys, is enough. Just read that word. Read the word and forget all the books that they're gonna sell you.

Jonathan Lehman wrote two books on politics and Christianity and doesn't know the first thing about the general equity of God's law. He has never thought about what the penalty for abortion should be.

Like they're writing books, guys, about topics that they have not studied. They're writing books about topics they have not studied. How can you sit here and tell me with a serious face that you've never thought about what the penalty for abortion should be and yet you've written many, many, many words about abortion?

How can you sit here and tell me that the government has the right to cancel its church and yet you yourself are marching at Black Lives Matter rallies in the same pandemic? Guys, one thing that I've taken away from this is that Big Eva's books, they're essentially worthless.

There's books that have been written years ago on the same topics, like of their good stuff. Like let's just say you think Jonathan Lehman's great on ecclesiology. You can find better stuff on ecclesiology from decades ago, right?

Better stuff. But they're writing books about stuff that they're clueless about. Clueless! Don't pick up a Nine Marks book on justice. Don't watch, don't buy anything related to justice from Nine Marks.

They don't know what they're, they haven't studied it. He hasn't even thought about it. Spent zero time, he said, thinking about topics that would be the most pertinent topic of our time. They're writing books about things they don't know anything about.

I've seen a guy, man, I'm not gonna name him, but this is a guy that's written a book on conflicts and handling conflicts in a church and stuff like that, who I know for a fact through personal interactions that he does not even do the things that he says you should do.

Don't pay attention to these people when they're writing about stuff they don't know what they're talking about. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable that it's come to this, but I mean, Big Eva stuff, at this point, it's a net negative.

It will hurt you more than it'll help you. And so that's my opinion. That's my advice. I don't know how they got to this place, but frankly, it really doesn't matter. Just know that they're there. Know that Jonathan is here, and then you act accordingly.

The next time you see a nine marks, you know, the next book on nine marks in politics, it's okay to just say, no thanks. Anyway, I hope you found this video helpful. God bless.