Street Screechers at the Mesa Easter Pageant, then Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon when we did not think we would be here

But we we are here and by now, I would imagine most folks have read our little report on our our experience on Tuesday evening going out for the

Trying to go out for the 24th year for me out to pass out tracks and witness to folks at the

LDS Easter pageant in Mesa and Here we are. We we aren't we aren't out in Mesa It's an odd thing when

I was at church last night. That was the first Wednesday evening service

I had attended at our church the week before Easter since well since time

I we had been doing Mesa longer and I've been a member of PR BC, so Had never been there on that Wednesday prior to Easter but as you saw on the blog you see our reasons why and I have not heard anything as to what took place last evening.

I would imagine there are some Some men who are very pleased with themselves

They I'm sure are just very very happy that they've driven Satan away and Though I don't think that the guy dressed up like Satan is going anywhere

I think he's gonna be out there and the circus will continue. I don't know if any mad little grannies were arrested last evening

Maybe she turbocharged her Wheelchair this time Put put sharp objects on the front and took care of business this time.

I don't know but goodness It truly is hard to describe

I know that when we came back from from Salt Lake number of years ago when they first showed up we played audio of these people

Screaming and yelling and and I recall very clearly listening to a man standing there yelling at the

Mormons as they're walking by It shouldn't be Mormon. It should be moron and he

He thought that was that was preaching and then real common one from one of the big guys was

Brigham Young instead of Brigham Young, you know, Brigham Young and You know, there's they're standing there

Swinging Mormon temple garments around and just just doing everything that you can possibly do

To make sure that no one's going to have any meaningful Conversation no one's going to have any any dialogue whatsoever because they're not there for dialogue

They are there for very simplistic monologue because it perfectly that's all they are capable of doing

These men are are very dull intellectually there there's nothing there and They know it and they're proud of it.

They refuse to learn they have they they take great pride in their ignorance and they refuse to learn and if anyone points it out, you're just helping to persecute them and There there's just no there is no way of rationally trying to to to dialogue with these people to Do anything with them?

It's just it's just not possible There's there's your you you might as well talk to the wall because there's nobody listening.

There's nothing there. So they descended on on on Mesa in in mass and Managed to make sure to poison the atmosphere completely

I do not want to be associated with these men in any way shape or form if you are LDS. I hope you understand

That we have absolutely positively nothing to do With these alleged street preachers, they are not street preachers preaching has a biblical meaning that they are incapable of fulfilling

They do not understand the meaning of that and we have no association with them in any way shape or form and the fact the matter is

These individuals hate me more than they hate the Mormons and the Mormons I think have a hard time understanding that but they most they most assuredly do and so We provided the information on the blog and as I said at the end, it would be very nice if someday the

Lord opened up that opportunity again these people for various and sundry reasons just went away and The churches that support them.

It just amazes me to think that there are churches of people and they take money given to the kingdom and send it to these people to stand on street corners and harangue people and to just in essence make fools themselves and it truly

Truly is an amazing thing. I remember the one of the first questions I asked one of their leaders up in Salt Lake City when they first showed up the first year

And in fact, I dragged out some old pictures from that first encounter This week and one of the first questions

I asked this man was Who's who are your elders? You know because I'd like to talk to the the folks that are they're providing the money here.

Who are your elders? Jesus is my elder Okay, that's that's nice.

But Hebrews 13 17 says that you're to be in a subjection to those who have the rulership over you and That's that's not a singular.

That's plural. So who are your elders that you are subject to and This guy who's standing there, you know touting the the

King James Version of the Bible is beyond and all of all things Evidently had never run across Hebrews 13 17 before and I wasn't really sure how to answer that but it was

Sadly clear that there there isn't anybody who can reign these people in there's no one who can reason with them they are each their own little monarch and The main thing that they're out there to do is to be persecuted by being persecuted you are proving that they are right and that you are wrong and it is

Evidently, that's how they raise their money is they tell folks about how often they're persecuted and how badly they're treated and and well the only reason

I do that is if you're really, you know doing something good and so It was so sad to see how they

Treated the police out there. They were in their face, you know, why aren't you doing your jobs? I've been assaulted blah blah blah blah so that you end up having, you know, all these cops have to show up and there's all these units sitting around and You know

Mesa is a growing city. They had better things to be doing than to worrying about the Lonnie's shin and the little old crazed

Mormon lady in the wheelchair and but Lonnie had to get his persecution factor taken care of and These are the same guys exact same group

That has been in in all the news every year for I don't know how many years now up in Salt Lake City in regards to the to the area there between the temple and the the office building where they they took over the street and made that Plaza and and getting arrested and and you know, that's why now there are these lines the

Mormons file through to get in and and You know, they're they're the ones that shut us down years ago up there

You know just an absolute plague a complete plague upon anybody.

I mean whether it's the Mormons or anybody I mean they've threatened to show up at our church. They don't care.

They are equal opportunity haters. They hate everybody that isn't them and They will protest outside anybody's church.

It doesn't matter You know what you teach or anything else and they they don't know any better there

I mean, they they are just simply that that ignorant. They just you try to talk to him and you know that the guy mentioned this

Paul guy that came walking up to us and said that He detests Calvinism almost as much as you test Mormonism You know, it took about 30 seconds to go the text and ask him a basic question

About God's selecting in eternity past and he's the active person. He's the one doing the verb and we're the direct object

So how does that fit with what he just said and his eyes glazed over and it's like I don't know what you're talking about You know,

I I just I just preach man, you know, I just I just preach, you know, and and It's a it's it's it's sad.

So I Can't imagine what it's gonna be like Friday and Saturday out there when when the crowds are are the largest and but I'm I'm not gonna be there to to watch the the circus because that's what we did

We stood there and we watched a circus we watched the police involved with a circus and you could tell on their faces they were sick and tired this whole thing and they just had to do it because you know people attorneys were calling from Salt Lake City saying they had to do it and They you know

And I contrast that with the first year that we were out there in full force, which was 85 83

I went out there for the first time took my wife out there on a Kawasaki 440 and Then 84 we were out there for a few nights with Wally Taupe and most people don't remember

Wally Taupe anymore sadly, but Wally Taupe was sort of a Groundbreaker in in witnessing to Mormons and a black that boy could pass out a tract.

He could he could pass out track to the dead Learned I learned a lot from Wally on how to hold a tract and and how to how to you know

I mean that that guy would just about chase you into the into your seat there Before you he'd give up on the hand and track to you.

I mean he was he was something else He was the last man to die from the LA riots.

He was a bold fellow Maybe not overly wise. However, because he decided to go out and witness to the rioters

During the LA riots and he found people Ransacking a grocery store and tried to witness to them as they're running out the door with their stolen goods and He was beaten into a coma and died

I don't know was a year and a half about about a year and a half after he was the last one to die of that and That was that was a shame but his his sort of self -produced book on the front lines witnessing to Mormons I cut my teeth on that book and very thankful for it and so Anyway, he was out there in 84 and then in 85.

I was a a Senior in at Grand Canyon Grand Canyon College that time and for my evangelism project

We decided that we were going to do the Easter pageant upright And so I wrote a tract what the

Mormon Church teaches about Jesus Christ. We've had thousands of them printed up and I don't know.

We had at least 30 people Involved at that time. We had shirts made up I mean, we we really we had radios to be in contact with one other we had maps and Needless to say

I got an A on my senior project Bible College for that one.

No, no two ways about it. But that's that's really when we we really started to Have an impact out there and it was it was for years and years every every

Easter week we would be able to look back on just some incredible conversations Just just incredible conversations frequently you know you get toward the end of the week and you'd get all these young people and They were coming out see the

Easter pageant Easter pageants changed a lot of there's the first time I saw it. It was very Mormon It's not

Mormon at all anymore other than all the Mormons that are there I mean, they they've learned their lesson and they're trying to mainstream and stuff, but At least back when we first started the

Mormons you talk to even the kids actually knew Mormonism they actually knew what they believed and They they knew the the doctrine in theology and you know what it it is really enjoyable to talk to a

Mormon who knows what they believe You can you can get into the scriptures and you can witness to them and you can

I mean and I've said many times over The years I had to start carrying more and more LDS Resources because the people knew less and less about what they believed

I mean we watched that we watched that that that transformation taking place now I don't know if rich if you were with me when that one older guy in Salt Lake a real interesting fella

Was talking to us outside the South Gate one day, but he said I'm telling you in 20 years.

You're gonna see crosses on The top of these these steeples and this this this temple and he was talking about how much the church was changing

Well, he was right He had insight that that I didn't have at that time, but of course live in Salt Lake so Things have changed they've changed a lot over the years, but we still you know

I remember I remember the first One Of my first encounters with elder

Hollywood he actually had a name badge Big tall guy, I mean he must have been a foot over me, and he had this this name badge that said elder

Hollywood and found out later he had a bunch of her name badges and But he was

Quite the interesting missionary, okay quite the interesting missionary and He He I think

Was that I'm trying to remember if that was the year that we were out there with Wally or if that was the next year?

But I remember staying what we call corner one and this missionary is really getting

He's getting agitated okay and He's not able to answer the stuff that I'm throwing at him, you know and So he's getting a little on the upset side and finally he just in a real loud voice right in my face

I mean we're not talking two feet away You know we're talking he's right in my face yelling down at me gesturing with his hand and he's going

Someday, I'm gonna be a god and you are going to worship me and all

Gets done. You know have you ever said anything, and you said way too loud And as soon as you get done saying it you realize it's really quiet right now and everybody's looking at you well that's

What happened I mean? He gets done saying that and it's just like Crickets are chirping it's done, and you look around and all the other conversations have stopped and People have stopped in mid -stride, and they're just staring at this missionary.

Who's standing over me yelling at me that someday I'm gonna be a god and you are gonna worship me and He gets this real sheepish look on his face and everyone else you know they've got mouths open and eyes are big and He came back the next night, and he apologized and we ended up having this long conversation

I remember remember my Mormon witnessing notebook Didn't you make one up for yourself, too?

I mean I was that was we all had some point, but there was no you're not talking about the missionary masher Are you

I'm talking about the three -ring binder was that thick that had documentation the one that actually had hinged yes

Yeah, that was the missionary missionary master. Yeah, okay? Yeah, you took if we took that to a home the missionaries had absolutely no hope because whatever they could throw at me

It was Organized easy to find there was Remember all the tabs topics and you had you had done that personal research up in Salt Lake in the oh, yeah

And then the church archives and found the stuff on Joseph Smith and the land record Uh -huh, no no first vision first vision stuff 1832 account.

Oh my word. That's right there Yeah, with the with the call slip and everything yeah Yeah, Mike was with me this ain't fake you see that there thing there that call slip

That's that's got you that's churches stamp on it right there. How about that? Huh? Yeah?

I'll bet you ain't never been Think that's we're getting paged to go to our next meeting paged we didn't have pagers back in those early days anyway

My mom's calling me she lives three states over, but I can hear oh, yeah, we had some incredible encounters

But anyway, I had that with me, and I don't know how we got on this We had this long discussion of Brigham Young in the

Adam God doctrine And I kept reading him all this stuff from from from Brigham Young well

I don't know how many years it was later. It was at least a decade I think it was more than I think it's about 14 years later

I ran into elder Hollywood in Salt Lake City Outside the general conference except he wasn't elder

Hollywood anymore in fact. He wasn't even a Mormon anymore Unfortunately he wasn't anything

But he actually came up to me, and he says do you remember me, and I did and we had quite the interesting conversation about that and So anyway,

I remember it wasn't that long ago That we had this lengthy conversation over the course of a week

With a couple of different missionaries, but one in one missionary primarily, and we gave him a copy of letters to a

Mormon elder and We were in a conversation either on I was a

Saturday night, so it's the last night of the conversation of the

Macy's pageant, I'm sorry and We are talking with this group of young people because what would happen is toward the end of week

I'm sorry I wandered off from what I was saying the end of the week all these kids that have been dragged the Easter pageant forever

They're bored to tears. They've seen this thing a thousand times And so they go and you know let's go talk to the weird people in the corner

And so you'd get this whole group of young people Around you and you'd have some pretty intense conversation with these folks and you had to learn how to handle it and you had to learn how to focus on one particular individual and there are certain things you could do to help make it work right and and So I remember we were we were on the

South side of corner one we're over on Hobson over where Arby's used to be but we were still on the temple side of that Road Arby's is gone unfortunately, which is probably why you know now that Arby's is gone.

Why go out there anyways. You know I mean They destroyed Arby's, so that's why we don't go there anymore

No, and I remember I was talking with these these young people and they were getting a little antsy

They're getting a little angry And one of them went and got the missionaries well the missionaries They grabbed were the ones we've been talking to and I'd given one of the missionaries they grabbed a copy of letters to a

Mormon Mormon elder a couple days earlier and So here these missionaries come over and as soon as the kids see them coming.

They're like all right Missionaries are gonna get a gonna tear them to shreds

You know and I recognized the kid that was coming over And I had just been saying something about what

Mormons teach. They're going on. Oh, we don't believe that and these missionaries walk up These these wishes a elder elder they're saying that and I forget what it was

I Was a plurality of gods or there was there was some it was a basic thing I hadn't in any way shape or form misrepresented the

Mormon Church at this point and So They say they said such -and -so and that is what

Mormonism teaches well this missionary I had given the book to he comes up to any he says he says well actually

You know these guys. He says you ought to listen to him. They know what they're talking about They're they're sort of like they're sort of like we are they're missionaries, too

And and they've studied what we believe in and they know more about we believe than than even I do and you should see these kids

I mean They're like wait a minute You're supposed to be taking these guys out, and you're telling us.

We should be listening to that What are you it was it was just one of the most classic situations. I had ever seen out there.

I mean I Don't think they ripped up our tracks that time. I think it was like oh Okay, well

It was incredible and we had I don't remember if we met did we meet The missionary that you and I went to remember they he and his partner tricked their partners

Did we meet them and I think we met them in Mesa at first didn't we I? As I recall they contacted we might have met them in Mesa I don't think we knew that we had encountered them they contacted us through the phone line right they cut down through the phone

Actually, I think at that point they Listened to the message, and then they called you at the office at the time

You were the only one there at the old two six five four eight four four number well I know I remember one of the missionaries even called me at night.

Yeah Just to chat about something he had seen on TV So I mean we really ended up having a fair amount of conversation with these two young guys

But I think my recollection is that we originally ran into him out in Mesa I at least that's what

I like that. I think they told us about it, but my I Don't I as I recall it was a out -of -the -blue kind of scenario

We didn't see it coming and and it's like you know he's got a partner, and I've got a partner

We're gonna kind of you know find excuses, and then oh, yeah, that's Tell was was they we somehow

I thought it was at Mesa, but anyways we got in contact with these this missionary and Obviously in the first conversations.

They hadn't just sort of blew blew him away, and he told me on the phone I remember he talked to me on the phone before we even had that that conversation at their apartment that He had gone to his mission president with some of the stuff that I had given him and even he said his mission president didn't really have good answers for it and So what happened was he and another missionary?

quite literally Tricked they fooled their partners and Got them to go do something else so that rich, and I could come over to their apartment now

If you've ever been a missionaries apartment There ain't much there, okay,

I mean there was a couch that had to have been you know 25 years old And it if you've seen that commercial where the woman just sort of disappears into the couch because there's really nothing left to it

That's what this couch was I mean it was it was lumpy and uncomfortable, and you know it was it was bad anyway

We met with them for quite some time and They're sitting in these two chairs, so you got pictures two missionaries.

They're white shirts dark ties I've got their little name badge thing me Bobby's on and rich, and I are sitting on the couch facing them and They're asking questions as I recall they were in odd positions because they were like across the room from each other as well as We were at the couch under the window, and they were

I don't remember them being that far apart from maybe they were just on each side of the table or something.

Yeah something like that yeah, yeah, but they're they're across from us and They're asking us questions, and we're just answering that whatever questions that they ask

Whatever questions are asking. I'm just you know we're just answering and then it gets quiet and There's this this uneasy calm.

You know silence and So I I said yeah, so I said to him I said well and The one missionary that I've been talking to the most

I'll never forget this rich was just doing in the other He reached up you got a picture this you got a picture of missionary sitting there

Wearing his white shirt and dark tie and he's got his he's kind of leaning over a little bit You know like on his is kind of leaning on his knees a little bit

Yeah, you know kind of leaning forward looking at us, and and I go so and he reaches down and And grabs his name badge and Whips it out of his pocket flinging it over his shoulder and across the room and What was it what was the terminology

That's enough that was that's enough for me good enough for me or something like that. I mean he's like that's it

I do you've answered my questions I Had Never seen anything like that in my life.

I I was just like and guess what happened to him He got sent home.

He got sent off his mission. Yes, indeed II he did Because he didn't believe that stuff no more

And it's sort of hard to be on a mission as a missionary when you don't believe that stuff anymore, so it was

I've got a lot of in fact realized As we were driving home

Tuesday. I've gone out to Mesa more than half of my life 24 years and So I you know sad to to see that come to an end and I'm telling you there's there's there's could be some men with a lot to answer for for God someday, but that's

That's the situation so Interesting interesting memories of course of the the door showing up and passing out to jack -chick tracks like we mentioned last time and Calvinism discussions coming up with other

Christians out there and and just getting One story that we'll take our break, and then we've got a phone call, but I'll never forget early on.

This is the first three years of doing this I've got a whole group of kids around me and I'm I'm holding forth

And I you know you'd focus on one you try to stay on track and all of a sudden I'll never forget this you know how things happen in slow motion

You know you remember them, and you remember them in slow motion and in the darkness

I? see this thing and it's rotating in midair and It sort of looks like a half moon

But it's it's rotating in midair, and it's coming over the heads of the kids in an arc and it

Comes I was wearing a tie that night. I remember that it comes over the heads of the kids and it hits me in the chest

And falls to the ground and it was a half -eaten Arby's roast beef sandwich

It was there the rest of the week it was ground into the sidewalk Somebody had gotten upset with me and decided to throw and a half -eaten

Arby's roast beef sandwich I never did see who did that and and I think about the next year somebody took one of those

I see's you could get and if you pack an icy real tight it turns into a solid lump of ice and some kid came up behind me and Nailed me right in the back of the head and a solid piece of ice folks is like a rock

I Saw stars. I mean I had a lump and the whole nine yards. It was

It was it was quite the quite the experience, but anyway there's our quick report on what happened to me, so we're going to go ahead and take our breaks shift gears and Address a text from scripture, and we'll be right back right after this

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And Welcome back to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon, let's shift gears just a little bit here and Talk with Johnny.

Hi Johnny Hi, how are you doing? Good? Good. Good. I was calling you in regards to the grammar of the text in Galatians chapter 2 verse 7

To give you just a little bit of a background on this it has to do with there's a leader in Florida Who is teaching on the basis of this?

This basically is the bat the verse that he builds his entire system on Everything else boils down to this and he's arguing from Galatians chapter 2 verse 7

It says but on the contrary when they saw that the gospel For the uncircumcised had been committed to me as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter He's arguing that being that the trans the word test, which is the the

Greek word test, which means of is actually a word that describes not the that the object is the that a group of people which is the uncircumcised and then another group of people which is the

Circumcised but rather that these are titles from for two different gospels. Now, I believe that clearly from a

Grammatical and contextual level when you look at everything that Paul wrote in Galatians and in his other letters

I think it's very clear that he's referring to one gospel, which is distributed to two different groups of people However on a grammatical level just looking at the

Greek word test. Can you give me an explanation? I've been looking through lexicons and commentaries and I just can't find anyone addressing this

Issue except for a T Robertson and only in passing Well, that's because there there isn't an issue to address generally when

When you don't find a discussion of it, that's because no one actually thinks there's any issue to be addressing in the first place and that's because when you interpret scripture you interpret scripture within a context and of course the term that you're referring to is nothing more than a definite article and the

Greek definite article is Difficult often for English speakers to master it is very different than its function within the

English language, but Really the the issue has nothing to do with grammar and very frequently when false teachers

Try to play with the languages. Generally, they don't know anything about them in the first place But when they try to play with the original languages, it's because the overall context

Contradicts their entire position anyway, and that's this is the situation that you have here

When you look at what's going on in Galatians chapter 2

Beginning of verse 1 then after an interval of 14 years. I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas taking Titus long

Also, it was because of a revelation that I went up and I submitted to them the gospel Which I preach among the

Gentiles. So here's your first contextual utilization of the phrase the gospel And this is the gospel that Paul is preaching among the

Gentiles It says but I did so in private to those who are a reputation for fear that I might be running or had run in Vain, but not even

Titus who was myth with me though He was a Greek was compelled to be circumcised But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty

Which we have in Christ Jesus in order to bring us into bondage so what he's saying is the reason that we did this privately not in the

In a sort of acts 15 type of a situation The reason to this privately is because there were false brethren who had secretly snuck into the the church

And they they were doing so with it with improper motivations They were there to spy out our liberty and they were there to bring us into bondage

It says in verse 5 But we did not yield in Subjection to them for even an hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you now

What what are we talking about here? We've already had Paul Speak of the gospel that he's preaching amongst the

Gentiles and now he says in this context He speaks of the truth of the gospel not of my gospel in opposition to Peter's gospel there's only one gospel that is that is in in sight here and It is known to his hearers.

So there's so far. We have only one gospel. We do not have multiple Gospels And we have people who are attacking that gospel, but we do not have multiple

Gospels then it says but from those who are of high reputation What they were makes no difference to me

God shows no partiality. Well those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me

But on the contrary so now what's he just been saying? He's saying they didn't they didn't modify what

I've been preaching. They did not My gospel is divine in nature

It came to me through Jesus Christ is his whole argument and he's saying they did not add anything to me did not contribute

Anything to me and it says verse 7 but on the contrary Seeing that is they saw that I Paul had been entrusted

With the gospel and the term gospel only appears one time here with the gospel to the uncircumcised

Just as Kathos introduces clauses that are equal to one another just as Peter to the uncircumcised so it is one gospel that has been entrusted to men

Peter and Paul and Yet they it has been entrusted for proclamation to two different groups

The uncircumcised that is to the Gentiles and Peter had the circumcised

For verse 8 this continues on you never one of the biggest problems a lot of people have

Especially when cultists start to play with the text as cultists will isolate phrases even from in the midst of sentences

Remember what happened when Greg Stafford, for example tried to get me off on a mass and count nouns in Tampa I stuck with the context why because that's where the meaning of a language is found

You can focus in on one thing so much you missed the forest for the trees Okay, right notice it continues on for he who effectually worked for Peter in his

Apostleship notice that notice the parallel here Peter and his apostleship to these circumcised

Effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles. So you in essence have a restatement here

What is being discussed in verse 7 that is? apostleship proclamation of the gospel to the circumcised and here it's to the

Gentiles, so Whoever this guy is when he says these are not groups He's completely wrong because that is demonstrated in the very next portion of the sentence to be what he's referring to Continuing on and recognizing the grace that had been given to me

James and Cephas and John Who reputed to be pillars gave to me and Barmuth the right hand of fellowship so that we might go to the

Gentiles? To do what to preach the gospel and they to the circumcised to do what to preach the gospel

There's only been one gospel in the singular all the way through this text this point so that to introduce multiple

Gospels when you only have one is absolutely impossible then They only asked to remember the poor the very thing

I also was eager to do but then here's here's the second fatal flaw to the argument even before we go back and look at The grammar notice the second fatal flaw verse 11 or verse 12 of our

I'm sorry 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned

Why for prior to the coming of certain men from James he used to eat with the Gentiles But when they came now who are the

Gentiles there? They're a group of people when they came he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof fearing the party of the circumcision

The rest of Jews joined him in hypocrisy with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the what?

the Gospel singular so if that theory which has no grounding in the text were to be true

This wouldn't make any sense because he is holding Peter To the one gospel and you don't have

Peter coming back saying well actually It's because I have a different gospel than you have I have the gospel to the circumcised and you have the gospel

You're uncircumcised. No. There's only one gospel and That the whole context bears that out.

It's very very clear in what it's saying So when we once we've established that once we've looked at the overarching

Context then we can come back and we can look at the text itself and say okay the problem is

That we have the phrase Ta you on Geleon, which is the singular of the gospel then we have taste

Acrobats the the uncircumcised Kothos Petros just as Peter tastes paratom ace the

Circumcised now the term gospel is not repeated a second time some translations will have it, but they'll have it in italics

Because it is assumed and it is assumed in two clauses that are connected by Kothos and hence they're meant to be

Taken together as a comparative So to try to argue that taught you on Geleon because there is a definite article before Akra bestias or paratom ace

That that somehow means that this is not a group of people Has no grounding whatsoever.

That's not that's nothing more than the definite article. That's all it is It's the word the that's that's all taste is before Akra bestias and before paratom ace

So there's there's nothing in the Greek grammar whatsoever that begins to suggest that there is two

Gospels or that the uncircumcised is Anything other than the Gentiles because the context before and after uses it of the

Gentiles and that the circumcision is Exactly the same group. It's the Jews. There's there's nothing to try to say.

Well, there's a definite article there That means everything no, it means nothing at all There's there's nothing unusual about that it there's no

There's no rule of Greek grammar that says if you use definite article that this can't be referring to a group of people or anything

Else in fact the reason the most likely reason that the definite article is used in these two

Situations other than the fact that that's in in my reading of Paul. That's his his normative syntax when he's making comparative like that but but probably the reason that these

Definite articles appear here is because he has already identified Who these groups are the

Gentiles and the Jews and so just like in James chapter 2 When James is talking about will that faith save him he uses a definite article and it's pointing back to the previous

Usage of the term faith that he had already defined in his context same thing here There is no question who the uncircumcised are

There is no question who the circumcised are and there is no question There's only one gospel all the way through Galatians chapter 2

Yeah, that's fantastic. I Follow your interpretation on you gave me a lot of insight on this and I'd like to thank you for that one of the things that he's also arguing and but you've already answered it is that when

Paul was condemning the Judaizers in Galatians chapter 1 he believed that Peter and the

Apostles were those the Judaizers that he was Condemning. Oh goodness. He makes a clear distinction

I mean that would to take that viewpoint would completely destroy The apologetic that Paul offers for his own apostolic authority in Galatians 1 to begin with You know whoever this this fellow is, you know, the problem with with false teachers is

They they almost never put themselves in a situation where they can be cross -examined by anybody who knows what in the world they're talking about and so the

Bible becomes their playground it becomes putty in their hands and and The world quite honestly is filled with these little cult leaders who?

Obviously someday will answer for their utilization of the Word of God in this way But they they are more than happy to rip and shred context and and they will very frequently

Utilize that kind of information in a completely spurious fashion to add to their alleged authority

Over their people because their people don't have any way of checking it out. They don't have any way of you know identifying whether the the guy is knows knows anything about the the

Greek grammar or Definite articles or anything at all. So very common cultic type of type of behavior

I'm thinking I'm trying to think of another guy his name slipping right now. Hope you know does that regularly but They frequently find themselves on public access cable programs and that's how they make their money

Yeah, all right. All right. Thank you very much. Okay, Johnny. Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All righty.

Let's continue and head on up to Adam up in Wisconsin. I Adam Dr. White I don't

Okay, I had a question I'm studying biblical languages that they

Lutheran University and they make you take a theology class when you're when you're studying that and we had a discussion about Christology and Lutherans, of course believe in a communication of the divine attributes to the human nature

Divine nature to the human nature so that they can believe that Christ is on Christ human body is on the present to hold to his presence in the

Lord's Supper and I wanted to ask you a couple of questions that number one.

How can we define Christ's nature? Such that we don't end up in the starion ism on the one part which is what

Lutheran say that we're forced to logically or on the other hand unickean ism where we mix the two natures and Also, how would you respond to?

Ephesians 4 10 where Paul says he who descended is himself

Also, he was sent far above all the heavens So he might fill all things they use that passage to say that his human body is therefore omnipresent Yeah, it's it is amazing to me to consider the the range of issues that have

Developed in Lutheran theology over the centuries because of a Recalcitrant streak in in Luther's unwillingness to examine other possibilities in regards to the nature of the of the

Lord's Supper and that has ended up I think More importantly than texts like this has ended up with a really odd Reading of the

Carmen Christian Philippians 2 5 I had to mention in passing when I wrote an article on that particular subject for the

CRI Journal a number of years ago that the the Standard normative historical reading of that text is modified with within Lutheran theology as well

Because they they want to see in that text. That's that Jesus That This is not a pre -incarnate activity of Christ whereby he is emptying himself in the incarnation they want to see that in the

Service of Christ to the Apostles in washing their feet prior to his the giving of his life and that also is then brought into the connection of the idea that the ubiquity of the of the body of Christ and things along those lines, but I don't

Honestly spend a whole lot of time on Lutheran theology especially along these particular lines

When you look at Ephesians chapter 4 When it says that he might fill all things

He is the maker of all things and the idea that it is his physical body

That is filling all things so that you can have some sort of Presence around and above and so on so forth the the elements, but avoid transubstantiation

Again is is a wonderful example of interpreting the text in the light of issues that did not develop for a solid 1 ,500 years after the writing of these original words to begin with and I find that to be sort of what you're stuck with when you when you

Enshrine certain beliefs in your your your canons and decrees and your confessions and then

When that particular conflict goes away, you're you're still stuck defending those things. So I don't know how to answer objections about walking the line between historianism and Eudaceanism because I wasn't in your class to know what in the world they're talking about in the first place

So I can't answer those questions because I don't know what the context was you you you walk those lines because of a desire to be faithful to the testimony of the biblical text and so You are simply attempting to Make sure that you do not violate what it means that the

Logos became flesh that the flesh is true flesh And that the

Logos pre -existed that incarnation John 1 14 You don't want to violate the fact that they crucified the

Lord of Glory and that therefore Language can be used in such a way that you have two persons and yet it is the

Lord of Glory They crucified and so you have the you have the the two natures and one person

You you have that there, but these are these are These are our negative bounds that are derived from scriptural texts but they don't give us answers to how to You know

Make fine distinctions down the line Along these these lines they are bounds that are given to us in Scripture That we can discern when we talk about what was the nature of the incarnate

Christ? but the idea of going beyond that to providing Specific answers to questions about You know

Lutherans and Consubstantiation or whatever other terminology you want to use ubiquity of the body of Christ and things like that You're you're no longer discussing anything that can be answered in a biblical fashion and at that point

I go You know, this is this is where? theologians got the the reputation of Spending their entire lives arguing about how many angels can sit on the head of a pin and at that point

You know, I suppose if everybody had equal knowledge of the biblical text and and we had we had

Learned all that we needed to learn about the backgrounds and history and and we knew how to do exegesis and to handle the text

Well, that would be one thing But most the time this kind of stuff ends up getting in the way of that rather than promoting that and in fact ends up taking the place of that for many people and The older I get the less patience personally

I have with it. I have seen promising young men destroyed by speculative theology and philosophy

They they were on the right track and then they got off because they started thinking they were really wise and spending all their time as I said debating over whether you know how many angels can sit on the head of a pin and and They got into the philosophy and again all these other things and they they never gained a firm foothold in the

Word of God to be able to Recognize what the Word of God was actually teaching.

They didn't learn the languages They didn't learn how to do exegesis and now today they mock exegesis because they know they can't do it

They know they can't actually do that and and the older I get the more I see that as a major problem

I've seen over my life people destroyed by it. And I also see that there's there's there's no light to be gathered from the the constant discussion of things that Eventually just go beyond the bounds of Scripture itself

So you go to what Scripture says Scripture tells us that that Jesus Christ is is the

God man That the Logos did not cease to be the Logos that do you have a a

Situation where you have the the two natures of Christ and yet he speaks as one you you see the danger of Sabellianism You see the the danger of modalistic monarchy and ism

You see the dangers of today one is Pentecostal ism. And so you you deal with those things on a biblical basis, but To be honest with you once you go past that I don't know that you end up developing a whole lot of light at that point and I would be be careful of how much time one spends and in such things rather than dealing with the text and If you can actually if you

I'm sorry And in fact, I'm noticing a lot of the things that you said that Lutherans really don't challenge their interpretations of Scripture that much

I Mean I every time I'm sitting in class. It's always this is assumed. This is what the

Bible says This is assume. This is what it says and they don't tell you about counter arguments

You can find about interpretations of text or anything like that It's just we assume this is what the

Bible says off and anyone who challenged it is challenging it as being unbiblical Well and in my experience, especially

In in the few encounters I've had with with Lutheran brethren, especially on the issue

I don't mean Lutheran brethren in the denominational sense, but Especially in regards to the doctrines of grace in regards to God's eternal decree

They they like to accuse Calvinists not only not being Christocentric but also of trying to answer questions that the

Bible doesn't actually answer and yet they then find in texts like Ephesians 410 Which has nothing to do with the with the nature of the body of Christ Entire discussions of these things.

So I think we do have to be careful and and I would say that obviously since I'm not a Lutheran that there is a just as much of a danger in establishing a

Theological system and then reading into the text for them as for anybody else. I mean we all have to examine our traditions, but You know

Luther Thank God for Luther, but but Luther was was an oddball about a number of things and and Even trying to figure out exactly what

Luther's position was on any one issue can be very difficult because I Personally see anyways, and I don't spend my my days reading all this constantly but in my reading especially in church history,

I see a Pre 1525

Luther and a post 1525 Luther. I think there was a tremendous impact on Luther in regards to the peasants revolt and You know,

I see a huge difference there. Well, you know, which one are you gonna give the most weight to you know? That's that's one of the other issues that comes up as well.

So you know learn the biblical language as well, but you know from my perspective the

Spirit of God is always calling his people to hearing the voice of Christ in his word and The learning of those biblical languages is just simply equipping yourself and giving yourself the tools

To avoid reading your traditions into scripture based upon secondary text that is translated in text

That's that's what you're doing if your purpose and learning that is to be a better expositor to be a better exegete to In the words of one fellow that I'm borrowing to to give the

Word of God fresh and warm from the oven Rather than the the the husks the dry husks.

Well, that's that's the reason you do it That's the reason you you press forward and that's that's where you get your true joy.

All right Okay. Thanks for your call. All right. All right. God bless All righty.

Well, thanks for listening to the dividing line today Lord willing We'll be back on Tuesday at our normal time next week

That is if we don't, you know run into all sorts of folks with big signs outside of our church Yeah, never know you never know but thanks for listening to the dividing line.

Thanks the phone calls. God bless at the crossroads

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