June 8, 2017 Show with Karen Hodge on “Transformed: Life-Taker to Life-Giver” PLUS Armen Thomassian on “The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to Prayer & the Ministry of the Word”
Karen Hodge, wife of Pastor Chris Hodge at Naperville Presbyterian Church in Naperville, IL, & PCA Coordinator for Women’s Ministry, who will address:
“TRANSFORMED: Life-Taker to Life-Giver”
and
ARMEN THOMASSIAN, former atheist, currently Pastor of Calgary Free Presbyterian Church, Alberta, Canada, & speaker at the 2017 Foundations Conference who will address:
“The Need For PASTORS to Give Themselves to PRAYER & the MINISTRY of the WORD”
Transcript
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio
platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues
facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one
man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we
converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another
wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear
from you, the listener, with your own questions.
Now here's.
Our host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of
humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.
This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on
this eighth day of June 2017.
I'm delighted to have two guests on today for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron
Radio.
For the first hour we have Karen Hodge, who will be discussing her book Transformed,
Life -Taker to Life -Giver, which she co -authored with Susan Hunt.
And then the second hour we have for the very first time Armin Tomasian, a
former atheist who currently pastors Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in
Alberta, Canada, and he's also one of the speakers at the upcoming
Foundations Conference in New York City, a conference run by Sermon Audio, and he's going to be
addressing the theme, The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to Prayer and the Ministry of the
Word.
So make sure you stay tuned for the next hour as well.
But now I'd like to introduce to you Karen Hodge, the wife of Pastor Chris Hodge at Napperville
Presbyterian Church in Napperville, Illinois, and she is the PCA
Coordinator for Women's Ministry, and as I said she's going to be addressing her book Transformed, Life
-Taker to Life -Giver, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron,.
Karen Hodge.
Thank you Chris for having me on today.
I look forward to our time together.
As do I, and am I pronouncing, is it Naperville or Napperville?
It is Naperville.
Sorry about that.
I'm thrilled here.
No, it's great.
Well, as I typically do when I have a guest on for the first time, I'd like to
have you tell our listeners something about the religion of your childhood, if any,
and how the Lord eventually, through his providence, drew you to himself and saved you.
I love telling my story because really I am a child of the covenant.
There was never a time that I didn't know the Lord, and I was raised in a Christian home.
I grew up in South Florida, in West Palm Beach, Florida, and both of my parents were believers,
but I grew up in a Southern Baptist church.
In many of the writings and the teachings in that church, I would
not have called them Reformed at the time because I didn't really know that that's what I should call it, but I
realize now that God was shaping me and forming me through those writings and
teachings.
Fast forward, I met my husband and we went on to Reform Theological Seminary where
we began to grow in our Reformed understanding and grow in our faith together, and I've
been very privileged to be under great teaching, not only the fact that my husband is my
pastor, but many other good pastors throughout my life, and so that's really my faith
story in a nutshell.
And did you go to the RTS there in Orlando, or did you go to the one in North Carolina?
Right, and now there are RTS campuses everywhere, right?
In the beginning, they really were only in Jackson, and we went to the Orlando campus.
It was brand new, and we actually had R .C. Sproul and Richard Pratt come and teach at our
church, and I thought, okay, well, if they're the ones that are teaching there, then
that's where we want to go.
So it was just starting out and now has developed into a much larger campus with
many more professors there, but that was back in 1990, and it profoundly shaped
Chris and I, where our ministry would go.
Yes, in fact, one of the presidents.
Of one of RTS's campuses, Michael Kruger,
he was actually a member of the church where I'm a member now, Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
He was a pastoral intern, and then he later became a Presbyterian and now is
president, one of the presidents of RTS.
Oh yeah, I love Mike and Melissa Kruger.
In fact, next week we will have the PCA's General Assembly, and they are my keynote speaker for our
Wednesday luncheon for all our ruling and teaching elders wives, talking about
what it means to persevere in a ministry marriage, and so they're a great example of
a couple that love the church and minister so well together.
So I'm excited to be.
Able to see the Krugers next week.
Yes, and although I have interviewed Michael, I have never met him face -to
-face.
He was a member of Grace Baptist Church before I ever moved to Pennsylvania, but I am excited
that, God willing, he will be speaking at the G3 conference in Atlanta,
Georgia.
He is on a very long roster of speakers there, January 18th through the 20th, and I'm going to have an
exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there.
So I'm looking forward to finally meeting Michael face -to -face, and he is also going to be on Iron Sharpens Iron
Radio again within the next several weeks.
Oh good.
Yeah, he's quite a brilliant individual.
He is.
And now tell us about Naperville Presbyterian Church.
I know that it is a congregation, as you just mentioned, in the PCA, known as the Presbyterian Church in America.
Tell us something more about Naperville Presbyterian Church.
All right, well Naperville is a western suburb of Chicago, and what drew
Chris here, my husband, about 10 years ago was the fact that this church was planted, what
they call in the PCA, as a flagship church.
It was one of the original churches in the PCA over 30 years ago, planted here to
plant other churches here in the Chicagoland area.
And as you probably know, it's a city of 9 million people, so we need a lot of churches.
And so we really see this as a gospel hub here in the western suburbs, and
we love being here.
It's a church of about a thousand people, and we're delighted to be here.
I find the Midwest, even though both my husband and I are both Southerners, we find the Midwest
a very warm place and a place that is receptive to the gospel.
These are people that are making a difference, not just here in Chicagoland, but in many cases around the world,
because Chicago is a sending place, and it's a place of influence, and we also
have the academic institution of Wheaton College that is closed, and so having professors and students who are part of our church
also shapes the culture of our church.
So we are...another thing that I'm glad to always tell people is that by God's grace, He's
continuing to make our church look more and more like heaven.
It's a multi -ethnic, multicultural church, and it really reflects Chicagoland.
We live in the fastest -growing Asian suburb in Chicagoland, and our church is
beginning, by God's grace, to reflect that.
Yeah, the Lord is definitely bringing about a revival, and has been bringing about great revival
amongst the Asian community here and abroad for quite a number of years.
It seems to be the primary place where there's revival going on.
And well, if anybody is interested in looking up more information about the Naperville Presbyterian Church, go to
npchurch .org, N -P for Naperville Presbyterian Church, dot
org, npchurch .org.
Well, tell us about this book, Transformed, Life -Taker
to Life -Giver.
Obviously, you've got to especially explain that subtitle, and how you and
Susan Hunt, who's a very well -known Reformed author, how you two got together to work on this.
Project.
Well, Chris, it might help by describing our relationship first, before I get to the
contents of the book.
Sure.
I was a newbie church planter's wife at 29, and I called the
office that I now am in charge of, and Susan Hunt had this same
position 20 years ago, and she answered the phone, and I said, I really said, in essence, could you give me
the 10 -step formulaic kit for starting a women's ministry from scratch?
But of course, that does not exist, and so it was on that day that I tell people, I
think my trajectory and how I related to women's ministry really was formed, because instead of
giving me some kind of formulaic answer, Susan invited me into a relationship with her.
She began to pray for me, and she began to equip me and come along side me, and to include
me in opportunities to learn and to grow, and then as the years went
on, teach alongside of her, so she has been a friend, and truly, in every sense of
the word, I mean, she really coined the term spiritual mother, and she has been my spiritual mother.
She has lived what she has taught in my life, and so we have a really sweet relationship.
So fast forward to about 18 months ago.
One of the things that PCA Women's Ministry has done historically in the past is bring together women,
and every time we've done this, we've done it in the southeast in Atlanta for conferences to equip about
every couple of years, and when I took the job, I think mostly because I live in Chicagoland,
and we have ministered on the edges, geographically speaking, of the PCA, I thought,
you know, a lot of times people think, you know, we're always going to the south in order to be equipped in our
denomination, so what would it be like if we actually went to the edges of our denomination
and put on conferences that were contextualized to those geographic regions, and so
in 2016, we did eight conferences called Transformed.
It comes out of Romans 1133 through Romans 12 to that passage
around North America, and we went to places like Los Angeles, Ontario, Philadelphia,
Dallas, South Florida, Birmingham, Alabama, you know,
in Chicago, Illinois.
I mean, we went to places where many times women don't have access to equipping,
especially in our denomination, and Nancy Guthrie, Melissa Kruger, and Courtney Doctor were our
speakers to teach through that passage.
Now, when Susan and I were having this conversation, I think a lot of times we can have
conferences that are one and done.
We go in and we do equipping, and they can be effective, but sometimes they don't go the
distance, and so Susan and I had a conversation.
What if we developed a resource that could be a natural follow -up to unpack that
passage of Scripture in a broader way for the women who come to the conference, and we
had close to 5 ,000 women come from those eight cities, yeah, and so what we
wanted to do was place in their hands a resource that they could go back into the context of their
local churches and unpack the truth of what spiritual transformation looks like in the context of
community, and thus the book came about.
So that's probably more than you wanted to know about the backstory, but it's
important because I think it flows out of the context of a relationship with
Christ, and Susan and I have with each other, and I think you get a feeling for that as you read.
Through the pages.
And this is a Gospel -centered study on Eve, Sarah, and Mary.
Tell us how specifically this addresses to each of those three main biblical characters.
Well, we start.
The book in 1 Peter, and the verse that references
holy women who hoped in God, and what does that look like for us as women
who hope in God?
What does transformation look like?
And then we take apart the lives of Eve, Sarah, and Mary in several chapters
for each one of those, and how God, through his relationship with them, as they listen to
him, their lives are transformed.
And so they are pacesetters, if you will, for what spiritual.
Transformation looks like.
I'm going to give our email address for our listeners.
It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N
at gmail .com.
If you have a question for our guest on the theme, Transformed, Life -Taker to Life
-Giver, that she co -authored with Susan Hunt, a Gospel -centered study on Eve,
Sarah, and Mary.
When you write in, please at least give your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.
But if you are writing about a personal and private matter, I understand if you prefer to remain
anonymous.
Let me just read a couple of the endorsements for this book.
First, from Christina Fox, who has been on this program before.
Christina Fox says, We all want to change and transform our lives, theologically rich, Christ
-exalting, and based on our Helper -Life -Giver design.
Transformed will help you become what you behold.
And the aforementioned Melissa Kruger, who we just heard about moments ago, author of The
Envy of Eve and Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, she wrote, Reading
Transformed is an opportunity to sit and learn from two gifted and godly spiritual mothers.
This book is a helpful encouragement to think biblically and live covenantally.
And we do already have a listener question.
Let's see, we have Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.
And Jenny says, What are the greatest challenges the wives of church planters face,
domestically and overseas?
Is monetary funding still the number one issue?
I have a heart for church planting wives, having done that in my life.
And I would say funds are always a problem.
But the number one problem that I see is the loneliness and isolation that can
happen, especially when you're planting a church that's not near other churches.
And that's exactly what we did.
We did a scratch church plant in South Florida.
And when we're lonely and we're isolated, many times the enemy
can whisper lies that we're never going to be a part of meaningful community or that
nobody can really understand how we feel.
And I think one of the joys of being in community is having people speak into our lives and remind us
what is true, to preach the gospel to our soul.
And so as you see a church being built, you know, prayerfully, that's exactly what
happens, that God organically uses the planting of a church to build a gospel center community.
But many times for church planters wives, they have to reach out to sometimes people who are
in faraway communities, perhaps maybe somebody they went to seminary with or a faraway friend that can remind her what is
true, especially on those days when you feel like nobody understands and nobody knows where you are.
Now, as far as finances, I know that the PCA is, I believe if
I'm not mistaken, the largest of the evangelical Presbyterian denominations.
Is the denomination responsible for a lot of the funding of plants or do they still need to
raise a considerable portion from brothers and sisters in Christ,
not only within their own congregation of the plant, but from outside as well?
Plants are funded.
They're certainly not given money just from the denomination to do it.
They're funded through churches and presbyteries and then also individuals.
And so it's upon the church planter to raise those funds.
And so part of what they do when they go call to an area is they go through an assessment in our denomination,
but then they go into the fundraising stage.
And sometimes that can be really discouraging because there's a lot of good and excellent ways
for us to invest our money in kingdom ventures.
And so sometimes you get a no.
And so it takes a lot of faith to go out there and boldly ask
that God would provide the money.
That you need in order to plant a church.
Well, thank you, Jenny and Ben Settle in Pennsylvania.
And guess what?
You have won a free copy of Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver by Karen
Hodge and Susan Hunt, a gospel -centered study on Eve, Sarah, and Mary.
This is compliments of our friends at Christian Focus Publications and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland
Valley Bible Book Service.
We'll be shipping that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And remember their website, it's cvbbs .com, C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service
dot com.
Actually owned and operated by Todd and Patty Jennings, members of the PCA.
And they have been faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and ship out all of our winners, their free Bibles and
books when they submit questions.
So keep your up for a package with a return address on the shipping label that says cvbbs
.com.
And we do have a listener, Bibi, in Cumberland County,
Pennsylvania, who says, is there anything commendable
that we can teach our children about Eve where she could be serving in any way
as a role model, knowing that she, along with her husband, were a part of the worst
tragedy that ever occurred in human history the fall?
Oh, great question.
Yeah, we like to blame Eve for everything.
Well, Adam did, certainly.
Adam did.
Yes, we see the great blame shift there.
But I think when we want to understand, especially what biblical womanhood
looks like, we go back to the blueprint.
And we actually see, before she's named Eve, we see woman there in the garden.
And I think we can learn so much about her divine design there, that she's an image bearer, that
in Genesis 2, Adam has named all the animals.
And there's only one thing that's not good.
And that is that none of those were sufficient for true biblical community.
And so, it's not good for him to be alone.
And so, God gives him woman as a helper.
And then, after the fall, this amazing thing happens.
Adam's capacity to name is restored.
And he calls woman now Eve, which means life or life giver, thus the
tagline of the book.
And we see that even though this declaration of death is
still ringing in the air, there is the capacity being
restored to bring life.
And I think one of the things that's amazing, and especially as we teach young women, especially those who
are not married or haven't birthed biologically, just like Eve at this point, she has not
had any children.
And yet, Adam says, you have the capacity to give life, spiritually
speaking, not just biologically speaking.
And then we see the cultural mandate to go and be fruitful and multiply.
And so, Adam and Eve, even after their exile from the garden, begin this journey.
And we see, part of what we show in the book is that as you walk through Genesis 1, 2,
3, and then 4, we see Eve's transformation.
In Genesis 4, Eve says, early on in the chapter, she says,
I have gotten a son with the help of the Lord.
And she finds out that Cain and Abel aren't the promised ones that are promised there
and that are going to actually crush Satan's head in Genesis 3, 15.
And so, then time goes on and you read at the end of chapter 4 that
God then has given her another son.
And so, this shift from I to God, this I orientation to God orientation,
I can't think of a better thing to tell a young person or any person my age, I need to remember this.
We live in a society that is captivated by I, me, mine,
individualism, autonomy.
And yet, when we have a Godward orientation, He is glorified.
And then we actually see a blessing in their family.
And so, I think there's a lot to learn from Eve, even though she does get blamed for a lot of
the foundational issues that we struggle with in our own sin and in our own heart.
And so, I hope that's helpful to you to think about how we come alongside young girls, especially.
Well, Bebe, you've also won a free copy of Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver,
compliments of Christian -focused publications.
So, please keep your eye out in the mail for that.
And make sure you give us your full mailing address as well, so we can have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship it out to you.
Okay.
You have in this book a number of women mentioned
throughout the book.
In fact, every chapter involves a woman.
You have Andrea, Lauren, Ellen, Helen, Chandra or
Chandra, Ronjanette, and Cindy and Abby.
Who are these women?
They're women in Susan and I's life.
And Cindy goes to church with me here at Naperville Pres.
And Ronjanette and Chandra are on my women's ministry team and so on and so forth.
And really, what those stories represent, hopefully, as a
woman reads those, she can slide her feet proverbially into their shoes and
think deep into watching these transformation stories that unfold in the book.
And so, these are women we've done life with, we've walked alongside, and we've seen how God has
transformed them from being a life -taker to being a life -giver.
I'm going to read a question from
Slovenia.
I'm going to read a question for you, and then I'll have you answer it when we return from our
station break.
Okay.
In fact, actually, I don't have your email address, so never mind.
I was going to email you the question as well, but I'll just read it to you.
Okay.
Kim in Slovenia, she says, as a missionary, most of the
women with whom I work do not have Christian husbands.
Please ask Karen what, in her experience, has been the best way to study God's word with these women
and encourage them in their walk with the Lord with husbands who do not share their faith
or are even openly hostile to their faith.
Any help or guidance you can share would be greatly appreciated.
And that, as I said, is Kim in Slovenia, and we'll have you answer that question when we return from our station break.
If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Karen Hodge regarding transformed
life taker to life giver, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
And again, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.
Don't go away.
God willing, we'll be right back with Karen Hodge right after these messages.
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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday
from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio,
www .wlie540am .com.
We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in
with your questions.
Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.
Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs
a pastor.
Welcome back.
This is Chris.
Arnzen.
If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is Karen Hodge,
and she is discussing her book co -authored with Susan Hunt, Transformed, Lifetaker to
Lifegiver.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Karen, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
Before the break, we had Kim in Slovenia who says,
as a missionary, most of the women with whom I work do not have Christian husbands.
Please ask Karen what in her experience has been the best way to study God's word with these women
and encourage them in their walk with the Lord with husbands who do not share their
faith or are openly hostile to their faith.
Any help or guidance you can share would be greatly appreciated.
Karen, do you have any help for her?
Sure.
First of all, I wanted to say to Kim that.
God sees you, and what you're doing is eternal, and it is very important.
And we want our worlds to change.
We want our worlds to be transformed, but it's not possible unless we renew our minds in God's word.
So sending women to His word is absolutely the best thing to do.
In our book, in chapter 2, we actually go through 1 Peter 2 and into the beginning of chapter
3, and there are some words that really redirect me and refocus me
when I think about what it means to live out my faith as a woman.
I mean, thankfully, my husband is a believer, but I work with a lot of women here, even in Chicagoland, whose
husbands are not believers.
And so rather than give you advice, I'll read you a little scripture here from 1 Peter 2, 21.
Of course, Peter is encouraging, in this context, believers to
submit themselves.
We don't like to talk about the S word, right?
Most women back off from that, because it gets right to the heart of the issue, our
unwillingness to surrender, or to yield, or to submit.
And yet, as Peter goes through this passage, he is unpacking what it looks like in
government, and in the home, and in the different relationships we have in the community.
But then he brings us to the reference point, and that's Christ Himself.
In verse 21, it says,.
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to
follow in His steps.
And Peter goes on to say the way that Christ submitted Himself on the cross was
by continually entrusting Himself to His Father.
And then you go down several verses in chapter 3, and I think Peter shows us where
the rubber hits the road, in the most personal relationship in a marriage.
And then he says, in the same way, in the same way that Christ has entrusted Himself and
submitted Himself to His Father, wives be submissive to your own husband, so that even if any of them
are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe
your chaste and behavior.
In other words, as the Word of God transforms our lives, it will, by God's
grace, transform our relationships, especially when we think in terms of marriage.
And it can be done without words, because the gospel transforms our
attitudes, our actions, the way that we serve, the way that we relate,
and it can be even done without a word.
And so I would just encourage Kim to continue to disciple women, so that they won't give up hope
that the Lord might, in His good providence, work in the lives of their own husbands by seeing how the Word has.
Actually transformed them.
Amen.
Well, thank you, Kim.
And guess what?
You have also won a free copy of Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver by our
guests Karen Hodge and Susan Hunt.
Thank you for providing an American address where your daughter lives, where we can ship this book
because that saves a lot on the shipping costs that our friends at Cumberland Valley
Bible Book Service graciously take care of.
So thanks for listening, and keep spreading the Word in Slovenia and beyond about Iron Sharpens
Iron Radio.
Now, this is not an unusual thing, these women of whom Kim speaks,
women with unbelieving husbands and even husbands that are hostile to their faith.
I don't know if it's still statistically true, but being in the Christian radio industry for
over 30 years, I have heard the phrase that women
far outnumber men numerically in the church globally.
Is that still a reality?
I don't even know if it ever was for certain, but is that a reality?
And this would obviously mean that there are many women out there who are.
Facing the same conflict.
I can't tell you statistically, but I can tell you anecdotally that when we go into churches,
women far outnumber the men, and thus the reason why I give my life to cultivating women's
ministry, a place where women can be encouraged and equipped to understand their
biblical design, but also what that means to live it out in the context of whether they're in a workplace, or a
home, or a neighborhood, as a mother, as a sister, as a friend, because now
more than ever, women need to be equipped and they need to be encouraged because the culture certainly
is not encouraging them to live a life like that.
Yes, and it's interesting that the Word of God commands older women
to train up the younger women in the faith, and that
possibly could be due to the fact that there were more women in the church even then,
but it certainly is interesting that that is a part of the design of the
church, that God himself, through his breathed -out Word, he wanted the older women.
To train up the younger women.
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, Chris, because I think a lot of times women and men often perceive women's
ministry as being programmatic, and the reality of the situation is that when Paul
was giving these instructions to Titus, it was about what it meant to have a healthy church rather than have
some kind of program, and he said, if you want to have a healthy church and plant one, then men need to teach,
older men need to teach younger men, and older women need to teach younger women, and they don't need to just
teach them in content, but also to show them what
it looks like in the context of relationships, and so that's why we can sometimes gloss
over those parts of Scripture because they're so immensely practical, but they're also very
spiritual, and so that's really what women's ministry does.
It brings those older and younger women together, hopefully in an organic context
where they can be life on life, and that's when discipleship happens at its best.
Yes,.
And it's interesting that Paul also commends Timothy's
mother and grandmother for his being.
Trained up in the faith.
Well, I know a lot of women have made a difference in my life, including my grandmother and my mother, and
I love the fact that he makes that reference there, that he was profoundly shaped by women, so women's ministry actually
impacts young men in the church.
As well.
Amen.
We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, please forgive me if
this is a part of the
contents of Transformed.
I was just wondering if you believe that the impatience of Sarah and Abraham
to wait for a biological child was at the root of what we even
see now today of the conflict between the
heirs of Ishmael and the heirs of Isaac still in battle with one another and
involved in hateful, bitter strife.
Could this sin be all laid at the feet of Sarah and Abraham, not to take away
from the great heroes of the.
Faith that they were?
That's a great insight, RJ, and I think there's something to that, that our sin doesn't
just impact us, but it has the potential to have the collateral damage
to impact generations, and certainly Abraham and Sarah, at different times in the story,
decide to take matters into their own hands, and we see ultimately
that it wreaks havoc.
It wreaks havoc in a multitude of different ways, but ultimately when they yield to
God's best to actually bring Isaac into their life and then ultimately being
willing to be open -handed with him, to surrender him to whatever God's will is for his
life, shows that Sarah has been transformed in her thinking about who God is and his plan,
that we see that Abraham and Sarah are willing to even sacrifice their own son to follow
him, to follow their father God, and so I think it's an interesting insight that
much could be made about that, and it certainly, as we watch the news,.
It informs us, doesn't it?
Yeah, sure it does.
Well, thank you, RJ, and you have also won a free copy of Transformed, Lifetaker to Lifegiver.
Please make sure you give us your full mailing address in White Plains, New York, so we can have
cvbbs .com ship that out to you as soon as possible.
Well, if you wouldn't mind going through some of the unique stories
that you have in the book, let's start with Andrea's story and how these intertwine
with the lives of Eve, Sarah, and Mary, which are the primary focus of your
book.
So if you could perhaps start with Andrea's story,.
As you do in your own book.
Okay, well, maybe it will help to understand a little bit how the book is laid out.
We wanted to provide a book that gave women easy access to daily
time in the Word, so there's a thinking biblically section, and then there are five days of
devotions of living covenantally, and then as we look at each woman's individual story,
we see how their thinking has been changed to think more biblically about whatever
that particular topic is, and I can give several examples, but then what does it mean to actually live it out
covenantally, and by covenantally I mean in the context of relationships.
And so we see, for instance, in Andrea's story, she is a very successful physician
in Charlotte, North Carolina, about how God changed her perspective about
biblical womanhood, and we start there.
She, and particularly in terms of her understanding of what it means to be helper,
because of her success, she had people helping her with everything in her life, you know, whether it was child care
or house cleaning, and she didn't really see herself in particular with a calling to
be a helper or a life giver in the context of her own home with her husband and her children, and it was
through, right back to what we talked about with Kim, through discipleship, one -on -one discipleship with my friend
Connie, that she began to understand that this is the way God had designed her to be,
and that when she lived in that design and delighted in that design, then she would not only be transformed,
but her life would be characterized by joy and purpose and meaning.
And so that's one example, but there's another example I could tell you, because so many women
really struggle with infertility, and we mentioned Sarah earlier, and Chandra is a
member of my team, my women's ministry team, who particularly comes alongside
military spouses and chaplain's wives in the military, and because of she and her husband's
calling to the military, they move around a lot, and they have always wanted to be able to adopt,
but because they move so much, it's almost become impossible for them to adopt, and
she has been unable to have biological children, and so Chandra tells her story in the book,
on the chapter that we begin to talk about Sarah, who also struggled with infertility, about what does it mean
to understand barrenness, both
not only physiologically, but also spiritually, and even though it's
a difficult topic to talk about, Chandra in the end talks about how this is
something that has been changed from a burden to actually a blessing, because God has shown
her that she can be a life giver and a spiritual mother and multiply life into women on these
bases where God has called her to be, even though she's unable to have children herself,
and so these stories are meant to encourage women to examine their own
transformed stories, and so when we taught the book as a pilot in my own church, each week we had a
different woman share their story of transformation, and so I would ask them to bring in
three just physical items, perhaps a picture or a book or a memento that
marked a significant transformative experience in their life, and so for
instance, women brought in pictures of spiritual mothers or places that
they moved where God discipled them in a particular church, and they began to share their stories of
transformation, and what we saw in the context of my own women's ministry here at Naperville Press
is that we as women are more alike than different, and that God is in the business
of changing us and transforming us as we come together around his word, but we can give
him glory as we see how he uses sometimes seemingly mundane things or simple
things, he uses those in our lives to make the glorious difference, the radical difference that is transformation.
Amen.
Well, I want to make sure before we run out of time that you have several minutes
at least to summarize what you most want our listeners to have etched
in their hearts and minds in regarding transformed life taker to life giver,
so I wanted to give you some uninterrupted time to summarize the most important things you want to leave our audience with today.
Thank you for that.
Really, the hub of this book comes from Romans 11, 33 through
36 through 12 too, and for those of you who studied the book of Romans, you know it's as
if Paul has been climbing a great mountain and he's making a case about
how much we need God because there is no one righteous, no not one,
and all of the things that we've tried don't work, and the things we don't want to do we
do, and the things we know we should do we don't do, and he gets to
Romans 11 as if he has reached the mountaintop, and if I had to say one thing to women
it's this, that women are products not only of their doxology but their theology, and it
converges right here as we get to Romans 11, and it's as if he cannot contain
himself.
He says, oh the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God, and in other words
they're unsearchable, they're unfathomable, we can't even wrap our mind around how
big God is, and he says he goes on to say for from him and through him
and to him are all things to him be the glory amen, and as if he can't even take a breath
he goes right into chapter 12 and he says therefore.
In other words there is, women are products of their doxology, and that's what we worship, the things
that captivate us, the things that we prize, we value, we hold up,
those things profoundly shape us, and I think we can take a look into women's lives by looking into their iPhone or
looking into perhaps their the way they spend their money and they spend their time to say these are the things
that we value and we prize, and what Paul is pointing us to is that nothing
should be more of a treasure or more of a prize to us than how unbelievable
God is, and then the logical next step is to give
our lives away and be transformed, and so he goes into chapter 12 and he urges us,
he compels us to hold nothing back, to offer our bodies as a living and a
holy sacrifice, and I love the fact that in this passage we look back in the Old
Testament and we see the idea of sacrificial offerings where animals are
brought, sacrifices there made for sin
offerings there in the temple where the animal, a perfect animal would be laid on the altar and it would be slain, but
parts of it would be used to feed the priest's family, but there's also the picture of a burnt
offering and that's the picture that Paul is pointing to here in chapter 12 where he's saying we're going to
lay this unblemished animal down on the altar and it's going to be totally consumed, nothing held back
and nothing used for any other purposes, and that's the life of transformation that God is calling
women to, to ultimately yield, surrender, and live open
-handedly and with an open life to him to say nothing held back.
I want to surrender my whole body.
I think sometimes we talk about giving God our heart, which is good, but it's not total.
He wants our mind, he wants our eyes, he wants our ears, he wants our mouth, he wants our feet,
he wants our hands, he wants it all, and what is the overflow of that?
It's to live out our theology, what we believe about God.
Paul has just shown us how big he is.
Now what does it mean to live that out?
And he, Paul there shows us the two contrasts that every woman faces when she gets up,
the path of confirmation, and the idea there is to be depressed into a mold, and
all the women that I work with understand this, that the world is trying to shape you and press you into a
mold.
They say, be like this, look like this, do this, be shaped by this,
and he says we don't need to be conformed to the world or shaped by the world, but rather we are to
be transformed by the renewal of our mind, and what is the purpose?
We see the so that there, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good, acceptable, and perfect, and then as you go on
into chapter 12, he talks about body life.
In other words, it's not meant just to be lived individually, it's meant to be lived covenantally or
corporately in the context of the body, and so my biggest encouragement to women
is to love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and then to
truly sacrifice it all, and love your neighbor as
yourself, and that's only possible when our minds are transformed by the renewal
of daily, minute by.
Minute, in his word.
Amen.
Well, as I told you before we went on the air, this was going to go by like a bullet, and
I would love to have you back on the program very soon, and perhaps after I email you a
calendar of our available dates for an interview, you can return to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, God willing,
and if you would like to be a part of our discussion again.
Well, I certainly would love that chance to have to talk to you, a chance to talk to you again, Chris, and of course I have lots
of very interesting friends in my life, so I can also.
Send them your way as well.
Great, and I know your website again is npchurch .org for Naperville, Presbyterian Church,
dot org.
For those of you in the UK who want to order the book, you can go to christianfocus .com,
christianfocus .com, and here in the United States, you can order from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,
cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com,
and that's transformed Life -Taker to Life -Giver by our guests, Karen Hodge and Susan
Hunt.
Well, God bless you, Karen, we look forward to your return in the near future.
Thank you so much, Chris.
God bless you, and coming up next, don't go away, because we have joining us, God willing,
within the next few minutes, Armen Tamassian, former atheist who is currently pastor
of the Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada, and he is going to be
discussing the theme, the need for pastors to give
themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word, so don't go away, God willing, we will be
right back, right after these messages.
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Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastors' Study every Saturday from 12 noon
to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www
.wlie540am .com.
We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastors' Study by calling in
with your questions.
Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.
Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastors' Study, because everyone needs
a pastor.
Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnzen, and the second hour of our program today features a guest
that I've also never had on the program before, Armen Tamassian,
former atheist and currently pastor of Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada.
But before I get into the discussion with Armen, I just have a few important announcements to make,
one of which includes an event that Pastor Tamassian will be speaking at, God willing.
That is the upcoming Foundations Conference in New York City, where I am
intending to attend.
This is the conference founded or organized by Sermon Audio, and the dates are
June 22nd through the 23rd in Manhattan in the Chelsea area of Manhattan.
And the speakers at this conference include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeky,
Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the global ministry of John
MacArthur, Todd Friel, the host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio,
and also our guest today, Armen Tamassian and others.
If you would like to join me at the Foundations Conference, you can register at
thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com,
and that event is June 22nd through the 23rd in New York City.
Also, we have coming up after that, August 3rd through the 5th, the
Fellowship Conference New England is being held in Portland, Maine,
and the speakers at this event include Pastor Don Curran, the Eastern European Coordinator with
HeartCry Missionary Society, which is the organization founded by Paul Washer,
Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's a dear friend of mine and author and pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas,
Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's been on this program as well before, he is
pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, which is the sister church of Grace Life Church in
Lake City, Florida, who have a radio station that airs Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day,
and also Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is the author of Reviving New England and the
pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.
He's going to be a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron in the next couple of weeks.
If you'd like to register for that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,
fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and after that, this fall, November 17th through the 18th,
at the Grace Bible Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals
is having their Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology on the theme for Still Our
Ancient Foe, obviously a line from that classic hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.
The speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott
Oliphant.
If you'd like to register for that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet
.org, click on events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology for Still Our
Ancient Foe.
And then last but not least, the G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, January
18th through the 20th.
I will have an exhibitors booth at that event as well, and the theme is Knowing God,
a Biblical Understanding of
Discipleship.
And the speakers include Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies,
Josh Bice, my dear friend of many years, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Tom Askell, who
is president of the Founders Ministries, Anthony Matheny, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul
Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and more.
If you would like to attend that conference, go to g3conference .com,
g3conference .com, and click on the 2018 G3 Conference, and you can register there.
And please, whenever you speak or communicate with anybody from any of these
events who are orchestrating these events, please let them know that you heard about the conference
on Iron Trepans Iron Radio.
And last but not least, I do have to remind you that Iron Trepans Iron Radio is in urgent need of
additional financing.
If you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to support your local church as you always
have been supporting them, please never siphon money out of your giving to your local church.
And if you are struggling to make ends meet, I don't want to siphon money off of your family's dinner table
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Please, though, however, if you love this program and enjoy it, and it's a part of your regular life, and
you want it to remain on the air, if you are financially blessed above and beyond your biblical
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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and there will be an address where you can mail a
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in the subject line.
And now we are welcoming your questions for Armen Tomassian,
Armen Tomassian, sorry about that, at chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, chrisarnsen
at gmail dot com, so we can have Armen answer your questions
on the need for pastors to give themselves to prayer in the ministry of the word.
And Armen Tomassian, as I said, is a former atheist, currently pastor of Calgary Free Presbyterian
Church in Alberta, Canada, and he's one of the speakers at the aforementioned Foundations Conference.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Armen Tomassian.
I'm sorry, brother, I had you on mute accidentally.
I'm just saying thank you, Chris, thank you for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure, Armen.
And as we typically do with first -time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, if you
could give a summary of your upbringing as a child in regard to the
religion of the household you were raised in, if any, and how God providentially,
sovereignly drew you to.
Himself
and
saved
you.
My
father,
oh, is
that
where John
Greer
presently is?
Okay,
well, yes.
Amen.
Amen.
And tell
us something
now about
the
Calgary
Free
Presbyterian
Church
in
Alberta,
Canada.
Amen.
And
I
love.
The preaching of many of the men in the pastorate with the Free
Presbyterian Church denomination.
And it's not just because of the Ulster accents, it's actually because of the power
and conviction with which many of them preach.
In fact, every one that I've ever personally heard, I've been absolutely awestruck by the
power behind that pulpit when a man from the Free Presbyterian Church rises up
there to preach.
And as I mentioned earlier, I've mentioned the name John Greer.
He's a friend of mine who I invited to preach at the church where I was a
member before moving to Pennsylvania.
John Greer preached at a conference upon my invitation at the Grace Reformed
Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.
And he was actually, John, a client of mine.
He was on the radio every week broadcasting
through WMCA 570 AM in New York when I was working there.
And John was at that time the pastor of the Free Presbyterian Church of Malvern, Pennsylvania.
So I really have gotten to know and love a number of these brethren.
And from what I understand of the Free Presbyterian Church, it's a very unusual denomination
in that Presbyterian is only the description of the church government or
polity because you actually have men in regard to the ordinance of baptism who are Baptists
as well as those who are paedo -Baptist in that denomination.
All right.
What else can you say about the Free Presbyterian Church?
Our church
started in 1951, really coming
out
of...
It came
out
of
a...
Yeah, just went home to be with the Lord about, what, a year ago or so?
Okay.
...on
his
life.
There's
no P.
Nicholson.
No.
It
rubs
off,
Chris.
I can imagine.
And what a humble brother as well, humble and gracious as well as powerful
in his oratory gifts and his knowledge of the Word and commitment to it.
And, well, if you ever happen to speak to John, tell him.
Chris Arnzen from Iron Trip and Zion Radio says hello.
And I want to have him as a guest on my program as well very soon.
You should contact him.
Yes, I think I will.
You have been the catalyst for me remembering to do that.
Yes.
Yes.
In fact, I've shared some of the Vimeo
recordings or videotapes, however you want to say it.
I'm probably outdated in my language.
But some of the worship services from the Balomina Free Presbyterian Church, I have shared those
sermons of his with others.
Well, interestingly enough, we have a listener, Jenny from Ben Salem,
Pennsylvania, who's not actually addressing the topic in her question, but she is addressing your
parents indirectly.
I don't even know if she knew of this because she, I don't know if she knew of the
religious differences of your parents when she wrote this because I received this
before you went on the air.
But Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, says, when there are married couples with differing
religious backgrounds and neither imposes their children to follow a religion,
isn't this breeding grounds for atheism?
It certainly is the case for many of my relatives who profess atheism or the rare occasion
agnosticism.
And because of it, it is very difficult to reason with atheists.
At least agnostics are slightly more open to discussing religion.
Do you have any comment on Jenny's.
Uh
question
slash
comment?
To
latch
on
to.
We're
going
to
our
final
break
right
now,.
And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Armen Tamassian on the need for
pastors to give themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail
.com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Don't go away.
We are going to be right back, God willing, right after these messages with Armen Tamassian and more of our
discussion.
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia,.
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?
Or am I trying to please man?
If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do
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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.
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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune.
Into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time
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We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in
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Welcome back, and my apologies again to my dear friend, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox
Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York, who hosts a visit to the pastor's study.
I cut his ad short accidentally, and his closing line
was, because everybody needs a pastor, and that's the truth.
If you just joined us, our guest today for the second hour is Armin
Tamasian, and we are discussing the theme, The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to
Prayer in the Ministry of the Word.
If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
We have a listener in Indianapolis, Indiana, who is a member of the Free Presbyterian
Church congregation in that area, Aaron, who asks, In your experience with the
Free Presbyterian Pastors, do you believe it is their extraordinary devotion to prayer and preaching
and studying God's Word that makes Free Presbyterian Pastors faithful to preaching the importance of
holy living and not just playing church and just adding Christ to the life?
It has been such a blessing and eye -opener to sit under men who preach more strongly
against worldliness like you do, and the Lord has transformed me since my years
with the Free Presbyterian Church for that reason.
Do you credit prayer and devotion to preaching the Word?
And.
Yes,
that's
a
question
for you.
We
don't
always do
it.
Northern Ireland
is
good
because
it was in
our life.
Amen.
Well, thank you,
Aaron, and
keep spreading
the word about Iron
Trump and Zion.
Radio in Indianapolis, Indiana and beyond.
In fact, you can include some of
the elements in a sermon or even routinely in your preaching,
some of the elements that Aaron included in her comment -slash -question,
preaching against worldliness and things like that.
If you do not have the humility of the Holy Spirit, you could be nothing more than a
Pharisee on the other end of the spectrum.
You could really just be pointing out the sins of others that you do not personally
participate in, or perhaps you do privately even within your heart and mind, if not
externally or physically, and that could be a great danger, too.
There are many within the fundamentalist movement, I would think, that unfortunately are guilty of that, where they're
preaching against worldliness, but sometimes the gospel may be absent from those
messages.
The mercy and grace of God may be absent.
It could be nothing more than someone scolding you or the world
outside the four walls of your church, those outside the four walls of your church, for their
immoral activity, but it may be devoid of all grace, mercy, and
humility on the part of.
The
preacher.
Isn't
that
correct?
We
have
Murray
in Kinross,
Scotland, who asks,.
In the Free Presbyterian Church in Canada, approximately what proportion of your Sunday congregation would
come out to the midweek meeting, and is there now a steady flow of men
preparing for the ministry?
I was disappointed to learn that the college in the States did not have a graduation
service this year, because no one was graduating, and that's Murray in Kinross,.
Scotland.
Do
you
have
any
comments?
I
speak
for
my
own
when I came
here
to God
for him.
They were praying about that
matter.
Amen.
Well, thank you,
Murray in Kinross, Scotland.
Please.
Continue to spread the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the UK and beyond.
And a Christian in Suffolk County, New York, confirmed what you said
earlier, Armin, that Ian Paisley went home to be with the Lord in September of
2014, so that would have been three years ago, nearly three years
ago.
Well, this theme that you are speaking on, I assume that you
think this is a prevalent problem, that pastors are not giving themselves
sufficiently to prayer and ministry of the word.
I'm assuming you're not just preaching or intending to preach to the choir and tickle
anyone's ears.
I'm assuming you think this is a serious problem in the church, is it not?
Right.
Amen.
And I
don't
mean to, in
any
way,
shape,
or
form,.
Scold or demean your congregation at all, because it is a small church and so on,
but don't you think that all too often, I mean, you may feel uncomfortable answering this, but
don't you think all too often that, especially in the smaller churches, men
are not rising up to do those things, those very things, like the
duties of the diaconate or duties of even the caretaker of the church,
mowing lawns, painting the building.
And I'm not saying that a pastor or elder should never dirty his hands with those things, but when
somebody is doing all of those things, don't you think that that congregation really needs to be
lovingly rebuked because they are indeed, perhaps unconsciously,
robbing their shepherd from the prayer and the ministry of the word that
is really what he is primarily meant to.
Do?
Yes.
That's
right.
Full of
marfas
and
shepherds.
Amen.
And
going
back
to
what.
We were talking about earlier, about the need for humility in a pastor, as well as for
unwavering commitment to truth and righteous indignation
and warning about the evils of sin, but humility needs to be there as well.
And don't you think that if a pastor is giving himself to prayer, that
just because of the very fact that that man, when he is humbling himself before a sovereign, righteous
God on a regular basis, if he is doing so with a true
spirit of a regenerate man, of the spirit of humility,
of a sinful creature bowing before a perfectly holy and righteous God and
gracious God and merciful God, that the humility would, you would think,
flow from that.
So then when he rises to his pulpit, he is already in the framework or the mindset
of a humble, sinful creature being used
to save souls and to draw the lost unto
the Lord and to give a warning and rebuke to the rebels
and to give praise, honor, and glory to God.
When he realizes that he is just a sinful creature being given that awesome task,
that the humility would be there if the prayer was also a regular part of that
pastor's life.
We
have
Arnie
in
Perry
County,
Pennsylvania, who wants to know, have you ever had to be
in any way.
Concerned about the Canadian government from censoring what you are preaching and teaching?
Because I understand that in Canada, you could be very seriously fined for opposing
things like.
Homosexuality.
Amen.
Now,
as
I've been
saying,
you
are
going to
be one of
the
featured
speakers
at.
The Foundations Conference, the conference in New York City this June 22nd, the 23rd being run
by Sermon Audio.
Is this your theme at the conference that we have been discussing today on pastors
giving themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word?
So I was trying
to get the
people
on the same
page.
So I'll begin with
the first one.
Amen.
Well, as I was mentioning earlier, if anybody would like to register for this conference, and I
would look forward to meeting you there as well if you do, so make sure you find me and greet me
at the Foundations Conference, June 22nd through the 23rd.
If you would like to find out more about this conference or register for it, go to
thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.
If you could now, in about two minutes time, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today,
Pastor Armon.
Amen.
Well, if
anybody would
like
to visit the
church
where Pastor
Armon
Tomassian
pastors,.
If you're visiting Canada or if you already live in Canada, especially obviously in the Alberta
area, you can go to calgaryfpc .ca.
Calgary is spelt C -A -L -G -A -R -Y, F -P -C for Free Presbyterian Church,
dot C -A.
And once again, don't forget about the Foundations Conference where Pastor Armon
Tomassian is one of the many speakers.
Go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.
Do you have any other contact information you care to give Pastor.
Armon?
Great.
Well, you have an open door here,
Pastor Armon, to be a guest.
And in fact, if you.
Want to hold on.
After the program goes off the air, I'd like to schedule you for another interview.
My pleasure.
I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.
And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior
than you are a sinner.