June 8, 2017 Show with Karen Hodge on “Transformed: Life-Taker to Life-Giver” PLUS Armen Thomassian on “The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to Prayer & the Ministry of the Word”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this eighth day of June 2017.

I'm delighted to have two guests on today for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

For the first hour, we have Karen Hodge, who will be discussing her book Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver, which she co -authored with Susan Hunt.

And then the second hour, we have for the very first time Armin Tomasian, a former atheist who currently pastors

Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada. And he's also one of the speakers at the upcoming

Foundations Conference in New York City, a conference run by Sermon Audio. And he's going to be addressing the theme,

The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to Prayer and the Ministry of the Word.

So make sure you stay tuned for the next hour as well. But now I'd like to introduce to you Karen Hodge, the wife of Pastor Chris Hodge at Napperville Presbyterian Church in Napperville, Illinois.

And she is the PCA coordinator for Women's Ministry. And as I said, she's going to be addressing her book,

Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Karen Hodge.

Thank you, Chris, for having me on today. I look forward to our time together. As do I. And am

I pronouncing, is it Naperville or Napperville? It is Naperville. Sorry about that.

I'm thrilled here. No, it's great. Well, as I typically do when

I have a guest on for the first time, I'd like to have you tell our listeners something about the religion of your childhood, if any, and how the

Lord eventually, through His providence, drew you to Himself and saved you. Well, I love telling my story because really

I am a child of the covenant. There was never a time that I didn't know the Lord and I was raised in a

Christian home. I grew up in South Florida, in West Palm Beach, Florida, and both of my parents were believers.

But I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. And many of the writings and the teachings in that church,

I would not have called them Reformed at the time because I didn't really know that that's what

I should call it. But I realize now that God was shaping me and forming me through those writings and teachings.

And fast forward, I met my husband and we went on to Reform Theological Seminary where we began to grow in our

Reformed understanding and grow in our faith together. And I've been very privileged to be under great teaching, not only the fact that my husband is my pastor, but many other good pastors throughout my life.

And so that's really my faith story in a nutshell. And did you go to the

RTS there in Orlando or did you go to the one in North Carolina? Right, and now there are

RTS campuses everywhere, right? Right. In the beginning, there really were only in Jackson. And we went to the

Orlando campus. It was brand new. And we actually had R .C. Sproul and Richard Pratt come and teach at our church.

And I thought, okay, well, if they're the ones that are teaching there, then that's where we want to go.

So it was just starting out and now has developed into a much larger campus with many more professors there.

But that was back in 1990 and it profoundly shaped Chris and I with the trajectory of where our ministry would go.

Yes, in fact, one of the presidents of one of RTS's campuses,

Michael Kruger, he was actually a member of the church where I am a member now,

Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. He was a pastoral intern and then he later became a

Presbyterian and now is one of the presidents of RTS. Oh yeah,

I love Mike and Melissa Kruger. In fact, next week we will have the PCA's General Assembly and they are my keynote speaker for our

Wednesday luncheon for all our ruling and teaching elders wives talking about what it means to persevere in a ministry marriage.

And so they're a great example of a couple that love the church and minister so well together.

So I'm excited to be able to see the Krugers next week. Yes, and although I have interviewed Michael, I have never met him face to face.

He was a member of Grace Baptist Church before I ever moved to Pennsylvania, but I am excited that,

God willing, he will be speaking at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

He is on a very long roster of speakers there, January 18th through the 20th, and I'm going to have an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there.

So I'm looking forward to finally meeting Michael face to face and he is also going to be on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio again within the next several weeks.

Oh good. He's quite a brilliant individual. He is.

And now tell us about Naperville Presbyterian Church. I know that it is a congregation, as you just mentioned, in the

PCA known as the Presbyterian Church in America. Tell us something more about Naperville Presbyterian Church.

All right, well Naperville is a western suburb of Chicago and what drew

Chris here, my husband, about 10 years ago was the fact that this church was planted, what they call in the

PCA, as a flagship church. It was one of the original churches in the PCA over 30 years ago planted here to plant other churches here in the

Chicagoland area. And as you probably know, it's a city of nine million people, so we need a lot of churches.

And so we really see this as a gospel hub here in the western suburbs and we love being here.

It's a church of about a thousand people. Wow. And we are, we're delighted to be here.

I find the Midwest, even though both my husband and I are both southerners, we find the

Midwest a very warm place and a place that is receptive to the gospel. These are people that are making a difference not just here in Chicagoland but in many cases around the world because Chicago is a sending place and it's a place of influence.

And we also have the academic institution of Wheaton College that is closed, and so having professors and students who are part of our church also shapes the culture of our church.

So we are, another thing that I'm glad to always tell people is that by God's grace, he's continuing to make our church look more and more like heaven.

It's a multi -ethnic, multicultural church and it really reflects Chicagoland.

We live in the fastest growing Asian suburb in Chicagoland and our church is beginning, by God's grace, to reflect that.

Yeah, the Lord is definitely bringing about a revival and has been bringing about great revival amongst the

Asian community here and abroad for quite a number of years. It seems to be the primary place where there's revival going on.

Absolutely, yeah. And well, if anybody is interested in looking up more information about the

Naperville Presbyterian Church, go to npchurch .org. NP for Naperville Presbyterian Church dot org.

npchurch .org. Well, tell us about this book, Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver.

Obviously, you've got to especially explain that subtitle and how you and Susan Hunt, who's a very well -known

Reformed author, how you two got together to work on this project. Well, Chris, it might help by describing our relationship first before I get to the contents of the book.

Sure. I was a newbie church planter's wife at 29, and I called the office that I now am in charge of, and Susan Hunt had this same position 20 years ago, and she answered the phone, and I really said, in essence, could you give me the 10 -step formulaic kit for starting a women's ministry from scratch?

But, of course, that does not exist, and so it was on that day that I tell people,

I think my trajectory and how I related to women's ministry really was formed, because instead of giving me some kind of formulaic answer,

Susan invited me into a relationship with her. She began to pray for me, and she began to equip me and come alongside me and to include me in opportunities to learn and to grow, and then as the years went on to teach alongside of her, so she has been a friend and truly in every sense of the word.

I mean, she really coined the term spiritual mother, and she has been my spiritual mother. She has lived what she has taught in my life, and so we have a really sweet relationship.

So fast forward to about 18 months ago, one of the things that PCA Women's Ministry has done historically in the past is bring together women, and every time we've done this, we've done it in the southeast in Atlanta for conferences to equip about every couple of years, and when

I took the job, I think mostly because I live in Chicagoland, and we have ministered on the edges, geographically speaking, of the

PCA, I thought, you know, a lot of times people think, you know, we're always going to the south in order to be equipped in our denomination, so what would it be like if we actually went to the edges of our denomination and put on conferences that were contextualized to those geographic regions, and so in 2016, we did eight conferences called

Transformed. It comes out of Romans 11 -33 through Romans 12 -2, that passage around North America, and we went to places like Los Angeles, Ontario, Philadelphia, Dallas, South Florida, Birmingham, Alabama, you know, in Chicago, Illinois.

I mean, we went to places where many times women don't have access to equipping, especially in our denomination, and Nancy Guthrie, Melissa Kruger, and Courtney Docter were our keynote speakers to teach through that passage.

Now, when Susan and I were having this conversation, I think a lot of times we can have conferences that are one and done.

We go in and we do equipping, and they can be effective, but sometimes they don't go the distance, and so Susan and I had a conversation.

What if we developed a resource that could be a natural follow -up to unpack that passage of Scripture in a broader way for the women who come to the conference, and we had close to 5 ,000 women come from eight cities, yeah, and so what we wanted to do was place in their hands a resource that they could go back into the context of their local churches and unpack the truth of what spiritual transformation looks like in the context of community, and thus the book came about.

So that's a little, that's probably more than you wanted to know about the backstory, buddy. No, that's quite all right.

Because I think it flows out of the context of a relationship with Christ, and Susan and I have with each other, and I think you get a feeling for that as you read through the pages.

And this is a Gospel -centered study on Eve, Sarah, and Mary.

Tell us how specifically this addresses to each of those three main biblical characters.

Well, we start the book in 1 Peter, and the verse that references holy women who hoped in God, and what does that look like for us as women who hope in God?

What does transformation look like? And then we take apart the lives of Eve, Sarah, and Mary in several chapters for each one of those, and how

God, through His relationship with them as they listen to Him, their lives are transformed.

And so they are pace setters, if you will, for what spiritual transformation looks like.

I'm going to give our email address for our listeners. It's chrisarnzen, at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, at gmail .com, if you have a question for our guest on the theme,

Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver, that she co -authored with Susan Hunt, a

Gospel -centered study on Eve, Sarah, and Mary. When you write in, please at least give your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

But if you are writing about a personal and private matter, I understand if you prefer to remain anonymous.

Let me just read a couple of the endorsements for this book. First, from Christina Fox, who has been on this program before.

Christina Fox says, We all want to change and transform our lives. Theologically rich,

Christ -exalting, and based on our Helper -Life -Giver design, Transformed will help you become what you behold.

And the aforementioned Melissa Kruger, who we just heard about moments ago, author of The Envy of Eve and Walking with God in the

Season of Motherhood, she wrote, Reading Transformed is an opportunity to sit and learn from two gifted and godly spiritual mothers.

This book is a helpful encouragement to think biblically and live covenantally. And we do already have a listener question.

Let's see, we have Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

And Jenny says, What are the greatest challenges the wives of church planters face, domestically and overseas?

Is monetary funding still the number one issue? Oh, I love that, because I have a heart for church planting wives, having done that in my life.

And I would say funds are always a problem. But the number one problem that I see is the loneliness and isolation that can happen, especially when you're planting a church that's not near other churches.

And that's exactly what we did. We did a scratch church plant in South Florida. And when we're lonely and we're isolated, many times the enemy can whisper lies that we're never going to be a part of meaningful community or that nobody can really understand how we feel.

And I think one of the joys of being in community is having people speak into our lives and remind us what is true, to preach the gospel to our soul.

And so as you see a church being built, you know, prayerfully, that's exactly what happens, that God organically uses the planting of a church to build a gospel center community.

But many times for church planters wives, they have to reach out to sometimes people who are in faraway communities, perhaps maybe somebody they went to seminary with or a faraway friend that can remind her what is true, especially on those days when you feel like nobody understands and nobody knows where you are.

Now, as far as finances, I know that the PCA is,

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the largest of the evangelical Presbyterian denominations.

Is the denomination responsible for a lot of the funding of plants or do they still need to raise a considerable portion from brothers and sisters in Christ, not only within their own congregation of the plant, but from outside as well?

Yeah, you're right. There's two ways that church plants are funded. They're certainly not given money just from the denomination to do it.

They're funded through churches and presbyteries and then also individuals. And so it's upon the church planter to raise those funds.

And so part of what they do when they go call to an area is they go through an assessment in our denomination, but then they go into the fundraising stage.

And sometimes that can be really discouraging, because there's a lot of good and excellent ways for us to invest our money in kingdom ventures, and so sometimes you get a no.

And so it takes a lot of faith to go out there and boldly ask that God would provide the money that you need in order to plant a church.

Well, thank you, Jenny and Ben Sandel in Pennsylvania. And guess what? You have won a free copy of Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver by Karen Hodge and Susan Hunt, a gospel -centered study on Eve, Sarah, and Mary.

This is compliments of our friends at Christian Focus Publications and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll be shipping that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And remember their website, it's cvbbs .com,

C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for BibleBookService .com. Actually owned and operated by Todd and Patty Jennings, members of the

PCA, and they have been faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and ship out all of our winners their free

Bibles and books when they submit questions. So keep your eye out for a package with a return address on the shipping label that says cvbbs .com.

And we do have a listener, BB, in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, is there anything commendable that we can teach our children about Eve where she could be serving in any way as a role model, knowing that she, along with her husband, were a part of the worst tragedy that ever occurred in human history the fall?

Oh, great question. Yeah, we like to blame Eve for everything, don't we? Well, Adam did, certainly.

Adam did, yes. We see the great blame shift there. But I think when we want to understand, especially what biblical womanhood looks like, we go back to the blueprint and we actually see, before she's named

Eve, we see woman there in the garden. And I think we can learn so much about her divine design there, that she's an image bearer, that in Genesis 2,

Adam has named all the animals and there's only one thing that's not good, and that is that none of those were sufficient for true biblical community.

And so it's not good for him to be alone. And so God gives him woman as a helper. And then after the fall, this amazing thing happens.

Adam's capacity to name is restored, and he calls woman now

Eve, which means life or life giver, thus the tagline of the book.

And we see that even though this declaration of death is still ringing in the air, there is the capacity being restored to bring life.

And I think one of the things that's amazing, and especially as we teach young women, especially those who are not married or haven't birthed biologically, just like Eve at this point, she has not had any children, and yet Adam says, you have the capacity to give life, spiritually speaking, not just biologically speaking.

And then we see the cultural mandate to go and be fruitful and multiply. And so Adam and Eve, even after their exile from the garden, begin this journey.

And we see part of what we show in the book is that as you walk through Genesis 1, 2, 3, and then 4, we see

Eve's transformation. In Genesis 4, Eve says early on in the chapter, she says,

I have gotten a son with the help of the Lord. And she finds out that Cain and Abel aren't the promised ones that are promised there and that are going to actually crush

Satan's head in Genesis 3, 15. And so then time goes on, and you read at the end of chapter 4, that God then has given her another son.

And so this shift from I to God, this I orientation to God orientation,

I can't think of a better thing to tell a young person or any person my age, I need to remember this.

We live in a society that is captivated by I, me, mine, individualism, autonomy.

And yet, when we have a Godward orientation, He is glorified.

And then we actually see a blessing in their family. And so I think there's a lot to learn from Eve, even though she does get blamed for a lot of the foundational issues that we struggle with in our own sin and in our own heart.

And so I hope that's helpful to you to think about how we come alongside young girls, especially.

Well, Bebe, you've also won a free copy of Transformed, a life taker to life giver, compliments of Christian focused publications.

So please keep your eye out in the mail for that. And make sure you give us your full mailing address as well.

So we can have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship it out to you. Uh, you have in this book, a number of women mentioned throughout the book.

In fact, every chapter involves a woman, you have Andrea, Lauren, Ellen, Helen, Chandra, or Chandra, Ron Jeanette, and Cindy and Abby, who are these women?

Well, they're women in Susan and I's life. And Cindy, Cindy goes to church with me here at Naperville Prez.

And Ron Jeanette is in Chandra are on my women's ministry team, and so on and so forth.

And really, what those stories represent, hopefully, um, as a woman reads those, she can slide her feet proverbially into their shoes and, and, and, and think, think deep into watching these transformation stories that unfold in the book.

And so these are women we've done life with, we've also walked alongside, we've seen how God has transformed them from being a life taker to being a life giver.

I'm going to read a question from Slovenia.

I'm going to read a question for you. And then I'll have you answer it when we return from our station break.

Okay. In fact, I actually I don't have your email address.

So nevermind, I was going to email you the question as well. But I'll just read it to you. Okay. Uh, Kim, in Slovenia, she says, as a missionary, most of the women with whom

I work do not have Christian husbands. Please ask Karen what in her experience has been the best way to study

God's Word with these women and encourage them in their walk with the Lord with husbands who do not share their faith, or are even openly hostile to their faith.

Any help or guidance you can share would be greatly appreciated. And that, as I said, is

Kim in Slovenia. And we'll have you answer that question when we return from our station break.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Karen Hodge, regarding transformed life taker to life giver.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And again, please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Karen Hodge right after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is

Karen Hodge, and she is discussing her book co -authored with Susan Hunt, Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Karen, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Before the break, we had Kim in Slovenia, who says, as a missionary, most of the women with whom

I work do not have Christian husbands. Please ask Karen what in her experience has been the best way to study

God's word with these women and encourage them in their walk with the Lord with husbands who do not share their faith or are openly hostile to their faith.

Any help or guidance you can share would be greatly appreciated. Karen, do you have any help for her?

Sure. First of all, I wanted to say to that God sees you, and what you're doing is eternal, and it is very important.

We want our worlds to change. We want our worlds to be transformed, but it's not possible unless we renew our minds in God's word.

So sending women to His word is absolutely the best thing to do. In our book, in chapter 2, we actually go through 1

Peter 2 and into the beginning of chapter 3, and there are some words that really redirect me and refocus me when

I think about what it means to live out my faith as a woman. I mean, thankfully my husband is a believer, but I work with a lot of women here, even in Chicagoland, whose husbands are not believers, and so rather than give you advice,

I'll read you a little scripture here from 1 Peter 2, 21. Of course, Peter is encouraging, in this context, believers to submit themselves.

We don't like to talk about the S word, right? Most women back off from that because it gets right to the heart of the issue, our unwillingness to surrender or to yield or to submit, and yet as Peter goes through this passage, he is unpacking what it looks like in government and in the home and in the different relationships we have in the community, but then he brings us to the reference point, and that's

Christ himself. In verse 21, it says, "...for you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in his steps."

And Peter goes on to say the way that Christ submitted himself on the cross was by continually entrusting himself to his

Father, and then you go down several verses in chapter 3, and I think Peter shows us where the rubber hits the road in the most personal relationships in a marriage, and then he says, "...in

the same way that Christ has entrusted himself and submitted himself to his

Father, wives be submissive to your own husband, so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior."

In other words, as the Word of God transforms our lives, it will, by God's grace, transform our relationships, especially when we think in terms of marriage, and it can be done without words, because the gospel transforms our attitudes, our actions, the way that we serve, the way that we relate, and it can be even done without a word, and so I would just encourage

Kim to continue to disciple women so that they won't give up hope that the

Lord might, in his good providence, work in the lives of their own husbands by seeing how the

Word has actually transformed them. Amen. Well, thank you, Kim, and guess what? You have also won a free copy of Transformed, Life -Taker to Life -Giver by our guests

Karen Hodge and Susan Hunt. Thank you for providing an American address where your daughter lives, where we can ship this book, because that saves a lot on the shipping costs that our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service graciously take care of.

So, thanks for listening, and keep spreading the word in Slovenia and beyond about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Now, this is not an unusual thing, these women of whom Kim speaks, women with unbelieving husbands and even husbands that are hostile to their faith.

I don't know if it's still statistically true, but being in the Christian radio industry for over 30 years,

I have heard the phrase that women far outnumber men numerically in the church globally.

Is that still a reality? I don't even know if it ever was for certain, but is that a reality?

And this would obviously mean that there are many women out there who are facing the same conflict.

Absolutely, and I can't tell you statistically, but I can tell you anecdotally that when we go into churches, women far outnumber the men, and thus the reason why

I give my life to cultivating women's ministry, a place where women can be encouraged and equipped to understand their biblical design, but also what that means to live it out in the context of whether they're in a workplace or a home or a neighborhood, as a mother, as a sister, as a friend, because now more than ever, women need to be equipped and they need to be encouraged because the culture certainly is not encouraging them to live a life like that.

Yes, and it's interesting that the the Word of God commands older women to train up the younger women in the faith, and that possibly could be due to the fact that there were more women in the church even then, but it certainly is interesting that that is a part of the design of the church, that God himself, through his breathed -out

Word, he wanted the older women to train up the younger women. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that,

Chris, because I think a lot of times women and men often perceive women's ministry as being programmatic, and in the reality of the situation is that when

Paul was giving these instructions to Titus, it was about what it meant to have a healthy church rather than have some kind of program, and he said if you want to have a healthy church and plant one, then men need to teach, older men need to teach younger men, and older women need to teach younger women, and they don't need to just teach them in content, but also what to show them what it looks like in the context of relationships, and so that's why we can sometimes gloss over those parts of Scripture because they're so immensely practical, but they're also very spiritual, and so that's really what women's ministry does.

It brings those older and younger women together, hopefully in an organic context where they can be life on life, and that's when discipleship happens at its best.

Yes, and it's interesting that Paul also commends Timothy's mother and grandmother for his being trained up in the faith.

Well, I know a lot of women have made a difference in my life, including my grandmother and my mother, and I love the fact that he makes that reference there, that he was profoundly shaped by women, so women's ministry actually impacts young men in the church as well.

Amen. Well, we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, please forgive me if this is a bit off topic, but I do know that you include

Sarah as a part of the contents of Transformed. I was just wondering if you believe that the impatience of Sarah and Abraham to wait for a biological child was at the root of what we even see now today of the conflict between the heirs of Ishmael and the heirs of Isaac still in battle with one another and involved in hateful, bitter strife.

Could this sin be all laid at the feet of Sarah and Abraham, not to take away from the great heroes of the faith that they were?

Well, that's a great insight, RJ, and I think there's something to that, that our sin doesn't just impact us, but it has the potential to have the collateral damage to impact generations, and certainly

Abraham and Sarah at different times in the story decide to take matters into their own hands, and we see ultimately that it wreaks havoc.

It wreaks havoc in a multitude of different ways, but ultimately when they yield to God's best to actually bring

Isaac into their life, and then ultimately being willing to be open -handed with him, to surrender him to whatever

God's will is for his life, shows that Sarah has been transformed in her thinking about who

God is and his plan, that we see that Abraham and Sarah are willing to even sacrifice their own son to follow him, to follow their father

God, and so I think it's an interesting insight that much could be made about that, and it certainly, as we watch the news, it informs us, doesn't it?

Yeah, it sure does. Well, thank you, RJ, and you have also won a free copy of Transformed, Lifetaker to Lifegiver.

Please make sure you give us your full mailing address in White Plains, New York, so we can have

CVBBS .com ship that out to you as soon as possible.

Well, if you wouldn't mind going through some of the unique stories that you have in the book, let's start with Andrea's story and how these intertwine with the lives of Eve, Sarah, and Mary, which are the primary focus of your book.

So if you could perhaps start with Andrea's story, as you do in your own book. Okay, well, maybe it will help to understand a little bit how the book is laid out.

The book, we wanted to provide a book that gave women easy access to daily time in the thinking biblically section, and then there are five days of devotions of living covenantally.

And then as we look at each woman's individual story, we see how their thinking has been changed to think more biblically about whatever that particular topic is, and I can give several examples, but then what does it mean to actually live it out covenantally?

And by covenantally, I mean in the context of relationships. And so we see, for instance, in Andrea's story, she is a very successful physician in Charlotte, North Carolina, about how

God changed her perspective about biblical womanhood. And we start there, and particularly in terms of her understanding of what it means to be helper.

Because of her success, she had people helping her with everything in her life, whether it was childcare or house cleaning, and she didn't really see herself in particular with a calling to be a helper or a life giver in the context of her own home with her husband and her children.

And it was through, right back to what we talked about with Kim, through discipleship, one -on -one discipleship with my friend

Connie, that she began to understand that this is the way God had designed her to be, and that when she lived in that design and delighted in that design, then she would not only be transformed, but her life would be characterized by joy and purpose and meaning.

And so that's one example, but there's another example I could tell you, because so many women really struggle with infertility.

And we mentioned Sarah earlier, and Chandra is a member of my team, my

Women's Ministry team, who particularly comes alongside military spouses and chaplains' wives in the military.

And because of she and her husband's calling to the military, they move around a lot, and they have always wanted to be able to adopt, but because they move so much, it's almost become impossible for them to adopt, and she has been unable to have biological children.

And so Chandra tells her story in the book, on the chapter that we begin to talk about Sarah, who also struggled with infertility, about what does it mean to understand barrenness, both not only physiologically, but also spiritually.

And even though it's a difficult topic to talk about, Chandra in the end talks about how this is something that has been changed from a burden to actually a blessing, because God has shown her that she can be a life -giver and a spiritual mother and multiply life into women on these bases where God has called her to be, even though she's unable to have children herself.

And so these stories are meant to encourage women to examine their own transformed stories.

And so when we taught the book as a pilot in my own church, each week we had a different woman share their story of transformation.

And so I would ask them to bring in three just physical items, perhaps a picture or a book or a memento, that marked a significant transformative experience in their life.

And so, for instance, women brought in pictures of spiritual mothers or places that they moved where God discipled them in a particular church, and they began to share their stories of transformation.

And what we saw in the context of my own women's ministry here at Naperville Press is that we as women are more alike than different, and that God is in the business of changing us and transforming us as we come together around his word.

But we can give him glory as we see how he uses sometimes seemingly mundane things or simple things.

He uses those in our lives to make the glorious difference, the radical difference that is transformation.

Amen. Well, I want to make sure before we run out of time that you have several minutes at least to summarize what you most want our listeners to have etched in their hearts and minds regarding the transformed lifetaker to lifegiver.

So I wanted to give you some uninterrupted time to summarize the most important things you want to leave our audience with today.

Okay. Well, thank you for that. Really, the hub of this book comes from Romans 11, 33 through 36 through 12 too.

And for those of you who studied the book of Romans, you know it's as if Paul has been climbing a great mountain and he's making a case about how much we need

God because there is no one righteous, no not one, and all of the things that we've tried don't work, and the things we don't want to do, we do, and the things we know we should do, we don't do, and he gets to Romans 11 as if he has reached the mountaintop.

And if I had to say one thing to women, it's this, that women are products not only of their doxology but their theology.

And it converges right here as we get to Romans 11, and it's as if he cannot contain himself.

He says, oh the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God. In other words, they're unsearchable, they're unfathomable, we can't even wrap our mind around how big

God is, and he says, he goes on to say, for from him and through him and to him are all things.

To him be the glory. Amen. And as if he can't even take a breath, he goes right into chapter 12 and he says therefore.

In other words, there is, women are products of their doxology, and that's what we worship.

The things that captivate us, the things that we prize, we value, we hold up, those things profoundly shape us.

And I think we can take a look into women's lives by looking into their iPhone or looking into perhaps the way they spend their money and they spend their time to say, these are the things that we value and we prize.

And what Paul is pointing us to is that nothing should be more of a treasure or more of a prize to us than how unbelievable

God is. And then the logical next step is to give our lives away and be transformed.

And so he goes into chapter 12 and he urges us, he compels us to hold nothing back, to offer our bodies as a living and a holy sacrifice.

And I love the fact that in this passage, we look back in the Old Testament and we see the idea of sacrificial offerings where animals are brought.

Now, of course, there was sacrifices there made for sin offerings there in the temple where a perfect animal would be laid on the altar and would be slain, but parts of it would be used to feed the priest's family.

But there's also the picture of a burnt offering, and that's the picture that Paul is pointing to here in chapter 12, where he's saying, we're going to lay this unblemished animal down on the altar and it's going to be totally consumed, nothing held back and nothing used for any other purposes.

And that's the life of transformation that God is calling women to, to ultimately yield, surrender, and live open -handedly and with an open life to him to say, nothing held back.

I want to surrender my whole body. I think sometimes we talk about giving God our heart, which is good, but it's not total.

He wants our mind. He wants our eyes. He wants our ears. He wants our mouth. He wants our feet.

He wants our hands. He wants it all. And what is the overflow of that? It's to live out our theology, what we believe about God.

Paul has just shown us how big he is. Now, what does it mean to live that out? And he,

Paul there shows us the two contrasts that every woman faces when she gets up, the path of confirmation.

And the idea there is to be pressed into a mold. And all the women that I work with understand this, that the world is trying to shape you and press you into a mold that says, be like this, look like this, do this, be shaped by this.

And he says, we don't need to be conformed to the world or shaped by the world, but rather we are to be transformed by the renewal of our mind.

And what is the purpose? We see the so that there, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good, acceptable, and perfect.

And then as you go on into chapter 12, he talks about body life. In other words, it's not meant just to be lived individually.

It's meant to be lived covenantally or corporately in the context of the body. And so my biggest encouragement to women is to love

God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and then to truly, um, sacrifice it all, um, and, and love your neighbor as yourself.

And that's only possible when we, our minds are transformed by the renewal of daily, minute by minute in his word.

Amen. Well, uh, I, as I told you before we went on the air, this was going to go by like a bullet. And, uh,

I would love to have you back on the program very soon. And, uh, perhaps, uh, after I email you a calendar of our available dates for an interview, you can return to Iron Sharp and Zion radio

God willing. And if you, uh, would like to be a part of our discussion again. Well, I certainly would love that chance to have to talk to you, a chance to talk to you again,

Chris. And of course I have lots of very interesting friends in my life, so I can also send them your way as well.

Great. And I know your website again is npchurch .org for Naperville Presbyterian church .org.

For those of you in the UK who want to order the book, you can go to christianfocus .com, christianfocus .com.

And here in the United States, you can order from Cumberland Valley Bible book service, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible book service .com. And that's transformed like life taker to life giver by our guests,

Karen Hodge and Susan Hunt. Well, God bless you, Karen. We look forward to your return in the near future. Thank you so much,

Chris. God bless you. And, uh, coming up next, don't go away because we have joining us

God willing within the next a few minutes, Armin Tomassian, former atheist who is currently pastor of the

Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada. And he is going to be discussing, uh, the theme, the need for pastors to be give, to give themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word.

So don't go away. God willing, we will be right back right after these messages.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and the second hour of our program today features a guest that I've also never had on the program before,

Armen Tamassian, former atheist and currently pastor of Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada.

But before I get into the discussion with Armen, I just have a few important announcements to make, one of which includes an event that Pastor Tamassian will be speaking at,

God willing. That is the upcoming Foundations Conference in New York City, where I am intending to attend.

This is the conference founded or organized by Sermon Audio, and the dates are

June 22nd through the 23rd in Manhattan in the Chelsea area of Manhattan.

And the speakers at this conference include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeky, Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the global ministry of John MacArthur, Todd Friel, the host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and also our guest today,

Armen Tamassian and others. If you would like to join me at the Foundations Conference, you can register at thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com, and that event is June 22nd through the 23rd in New York City.

Also, we have coming up after that, August 3rd through the 5th, the

Fellowship Conference New England is being held in Portland, Maine, and the speakers at this event include

Pastor Don Curran, the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society, which is the organization founded by Paul Washer, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's a dear friend of mine and author and pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's been on this program as well before.

He is pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, which is the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who have a radio station that airs

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day, and also Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is the author of Reviving New England and the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

He's going to be a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron in the next couple of weeks. If you'd like to register for that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And after that, this fall, November 17th through the 18th, at the

Grace Bible Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology on the theme For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a line from that classic hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

The speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to register for that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

click on events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, For Still Our Ancient Foe.

And then last but not least, the G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, January 18th through the 20th.

I will have an exhibitors booth at that event as well. And the theme is

Knowing God, A Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. I am really tongue -tied today. Knowing God, A Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

And the speakers include Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, H .B. Charles Jr.,

Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, my dear friend of many years, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Tom Askell, who is president of the

Founders Ministries, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Krueger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and more.

If you would like to attend that conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

and click on the 2018 G3 Conference, and you can register there. And please, whenever you speak or communicate with anybody from any of these events who are orchestrating these events, please let them know that you heard about the conference on Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio.

And last but not least, I do have to remind you that Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio is in urgent need of additional financing.

If you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to support your local church, as you always have been supporting them, please never siphon money out of your giving to your local church.

And if you are struggling to make ends meet, I don't want to siphon money off of your family's dinner table either.

Please, though, however, if you love this program and enjoy it, and it's a part of your regular life, and you want it to remain on the air, if you are financially blessed above and beyond your biblical responsibilities to provide for your home and your church,

I would love to receive a donation of any amount that God has given you the ability to afford.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and there will be an address where you can mail a check for any amount made out to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio.

And if you'd like to advertise with us, it's your business, corporation, professional practice, whether you are a pastor or a leader in a parachurch ministry, or you're having a special event, please email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. And now we are welcoming your questions for Armon Tomassian, Armin Tomassian, sorry about that, at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, so we can have Armin answer your questions on the need for pastors to give themselves to prayer in the ministry of the word.

And Armin Tomassian, as I said, is a former atheist, currently pastor of Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada, and he's one of the speakers at the aforementioned

Foundations Conference, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio,

Armin Tomassian. I'm sorry, brother, I had you on mute accidentally.

I'm just saying thank you, Chris, thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure, Armin. And as we typically do with first -time guests on Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio, if you could give a summary of your upbringing as a child in regard to the religion of the household you were raised in, if any, and how

God providentially, sovereignly drew you to himself and saved you. Well, I have a bit of a staggered past, a bit of a,

I suppose, a gully mixture, as we would say, in the UK, Chris. My father was brought up in Iran, not as a

Muslim, however, as an Armenian Orthodox, nominal Armenian Orthodox, and my mother was brought up in a very strict, very devout

Protestant home in Northern Ireland. They met when they were studying in England and then married, and I was born in Scotland in 1982, and there was absolutely no mention of God in our home at all, never.

I don't remember any prayer, any reference to religion, to Jesus Christ, to the gospel, and had no idea until we moved to Northern Ireland when

I was three, and then my maternal grandparents began to exercise some influence to try and get myself and my sister to church, to Sunday school in the

Free Presbyterian Church in Balamony, which is way up in the north of Northern Ireland.

Oh, is that where John Greer presently is? It's just north where John Greer is. He's in Balamony.

Balamony is about 24 miles north. Okay. Yeah, so it's where, if you've heard of Dr.

Alan Cairns, he used to minister there before he went to Greenville. Yes. Yeah, so my mom was brought up there, and my grandparents went there for years, and I went to Sunday school a handful of times, not very often, and then when

I was eight, my father left the home, and I don't remember going to church after he left, so there was about a period of 11 years where I never darkened the door of a church until my mom was converted very suddenly at the end of 2001, and it came, totally came out of nowhere.

I was 18 years of age, and I was working at weekends away from home. I came home one week, and everything was just different.

It was a very surreal experience, hymns playing in the background, the Bible open on the table, she's not drinking anymore, she's going to church instead of bars or whatever, going out at the weekend, and praying and all this, kind of very unusual, because I had never really witnessed

Christianity up close and personal, and that was a very kind of interesting memory of mine to realize how alarming it was to see such a change in someone's life, and to cut a long story short, my mom did what moms do, and she pastored me to go to church, and eventually

I went to hear my uncle give his testimony at the beginning of 2002, and five months from then, the

Lord saved me. There was a few young people in the church, and they were on fire for God, and they were praying very fervently.

They invited me to church. I went there, went to another meeting afterwards, and after that meeting, they began to witness to me, and in spite of all my,

I suppose my total absence of understanding of the Gospel, I had just taken on the world view, there was no

God, religion causes wars and suffering and harm, and although I had arguments about Noah and the

Ark and all this kind of thing, that night the Lord just came and made me aware of Himself and of my own sin, and I can't explain except to say that whereas once I was blind, now

I see. My eyes just became open to my sin, and I called on Christ to save me. That was the 13th of May, 2002, and really from there, just gave me a heart to serve

Him, and He's done wonderful things for me that are beyond what tongue can tell. He's a wonderful Savior, and it appears

I've been a Christian now and haven't looked back once, and so from there,

I suppose it really leads into something of the burden of the conference in some regard as well, because at that time, there was a tremendous move of the

Spirit in our local congregation. We were having normal youth fellowship, just like a regular youth fellowship, about 25 to 30 young people, but they were staying after youth fellowship for prayer.

I remember I was kind of burst into the Christian faith in this environment where young people had their youth meeting, and then immediately following, they had a prayer meeting, and so they were seeking

God. I remember one occasion, there was 28 and 27 young people praying and weeping before God for their lost school friends and their family members and so on, and then that kind of carried on because I thought, well, this is what

Christians do. They pray. They seek God, so there was a handful of us, maybe five or six, who would come back to my mom's home and we would pray into the small hours of the morning two or three times a week, just seeking

God and praying and calling upon the Lord to work, and perhaps out of that, for me personally, the most wonderful thing was my girlfriend, who was brought up as a

Jehovah's Witness, was finally converted two weeks after my own conversion,

I believe, as a direct result of Answer to Prayer, so just even thinking about it,

Chris, it brings sort of encouragement to my heart to see what God has done and to remember how merciful

He has been. Amen. And tell us something now about the

Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canada. Well, two years after I was saved,

I'd been praying about the Lord's work for constantly always wanting to serve

Him. I first went on the doors six weeks after the Lord saved me, didn't know much, but I knew

God had saved me, and I began to evangelize and do open air work as well, and never wanted to be a pastor, never.

I had no desire to be a pastor, and first of all, I think it was the fear of the academic side, and then it was passages like James 3 .1,

I'll be not many masters, knowing you'll receive a greater condemnation, just to put me off. So I just wanted to be an evangelist, and the

Lord had to work in my heart over a long period of time, not until the last year of my training in Bible College in Northern Ireland did

I sort of surrender and say, right Lord, if you want me to pastor, that's okay, I'll be a pastor, thinking it would be in Northern Ireland.

And very suddenly, very kind of out of the blue, I was invited to come just a few weeks before I was licensed by our presbytery to come to Calgary and preach there for three

Sundays, and within a month they had met, and they had issued a call, unanimous call, and so I came here in January 2015, so it's almost two and a half years, to a small church with about 20, maybe slightly more, in attendance on a

Sunday morning, and just came to preach the gospel to these dear people, and God has really blessed us, and has grown the work, not as you're always looking for more, but we now have about six days or so in a

Sunday morning, for the first time ever on Tuesday we had 30 at our prayer meeting, which was a tremendous blessing to see more of an increase in desire in the people to pray, and we're just a small humble folk who are preaching the gospel, enjoying the gospel,

I should say, seeking to serve the Lord according to our abilities. Amen, and I love the preaching of many of the men in the pastorate with the

Free Presbyterian Church denomination, and it's not just because of the Ulster accents, it's actually because of the power and conviction with which many of them preach, in fact everyone that I've ever personally heard,

I've been absolutely awestruck by the the power behind that pulpit when a man from the

Free Presbyterian Church rises up there to preach, and as I mentioned earlier,

I've mentioned the name John Greer, he's a friend of mine who I invited to preach at the church where I was a member before moving to Pennsylvania.

John Greer preached at a conference upon my invitation at the Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, and he was actually,

John, a client of mine, he was on the radio every week broadcasting through WMCA 570

AM in New York when I was working there, and John was at that time the pastor of the

Free Presbyterian Church of Malvern, Pennsylvania, so I really have gotten to know and love a number of these brethren, and from what

I understand of the Free Presbyterian Church, it's a very unusual denomination in that Presbyterian is only the description of the church government or polity, because you actually have men in regard to the ordinance of baptism who are

Baptists, as well as those who are Paedo -Baptist in that denomination, all right? What else can you say about the

Free Presbyterian Church? Um, I would say, as I suppose probably a third generation

Free Presbyterian, our church started in 1951, really coming out of the liberalism that was occurring in Irish Presbyterianism, and had been occurring because of the kind of downgrade from the 1920s and so on, with higher criticism and so on.

They came out of that, and I would say, Chris, that we have something of a legacy that marries not just Reformed doctrine, but also a real heart for God and for revival.

Many have heard of Iain Paisley, and Iain Paisley was a giant, really, in his day.

Yeah, just went on to be with the Lord about, what, a year ago or so? Oh, it's longer than that. It's a few years now, nearly.

Okay. Yeah. But yeah, there was no doubt that the Lord's hand on his ministry, and the influence,

I'm just thinking now of that, the famous 36 -hour prayer meeting that he and a few other men had when he was a fairly young minister, and they came together on Friday nights to pray, and on one occasion,

God came down and stepped in, and they didn't stop for prayer. They continued through the

Friday evening into the Saturday, prayed through Saturday, prayed right through to the Sunday morning service, and there was a mark upon his life, there's no doubt.

And then some of the people who influenced me, really, were influenced not only by him, and some of the other men, like Alan Cairns, and you mentioned

John Greer, but a mentor of mine, my local congregation of which I was a member, was converted under WP Nicholson.

I'm not sure if you've ever heard of Nicholson. No. Yeah, he was an evangelist from Northern Ireland who preached around the world, but even in his latter days, when he was probably in his 80s, he was still seeing souls converted to Christ, and this mentor of mine, an elder in our church, was converted, and was really, he was after the similar mold.

He was a man who knew that God had saved him, but also knew something of the touch of God, the infilling of the

Spirit upon his life, knew what it was, and some of the old saints, they would talk about praying through, not just saying your prayers, but praying until you get through to God, and you know that you've obtained

God there, and that kind of influence on my life. I sat under this man's

Bible class, preached on the streets with him, and he would talk about Nicholson, and you know,

Mr. Paisley, and the old gospel missions, and you know, dozens and scores of people being converted, and prayer meetings, all -night prayer meetings, and this kind of thing.

It rubs off, Chris. It really rubs off. I just think of the language of Paul when he talks about,

Mark them which walk, so as ye have us for an ensemble, and the importance of young believers marking men of God, women of God, and trying to kind of get something of the

Spirit that they have, and seeing this kind of the blessings of the generations come upon each coming generation as well.

Mr. Greer himself was someone who's greatly shaped my own ministry. I sat under his exegesis lectures for three years, and it wasn't easy on the hand trying to keep up, but that was the last class of the week in Bible college, and it was like a devotional for me just to sit under him, and to hear him expound

Christ from Hebrews for two years. It was something else, Chris, really. I can imagine, and what a humble brother as well, humble and gracious, as well as powerful in his oratory gifts, and his knowledge of the

Word, and commitment to it. And well, if you ever happen to speak to John, tell him

Chris Ornson from Iron Trip and Zion Radio says hello, and I want to have him as a guest on my program as well very soon.

You should contact him. Yes, I think I will. You have been the catalyst for me remembering to do that.

He went to take up the pastorate in 2000 back in Northern Ireland, and God has greatly used him there as well.

Yes, in fact, I've shared some of the Vimeo recordings or videotapes, however you want to say it.

I'm probably outdated in my language, but some of the worship services from the Balomina Free Presbyterian Church, I have shared those sermons of his with others.

Yeah. Well, interestingly enough, we have a listener, Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, who's not actually addressing the topic in her question, but she is addressing your parents indirectly.

I don't even know if she knew of this because she, I don't know if she knew of the religious differences of your parents when she wrote this because I received this before you went on the air, but Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania says, when there are married couples with differing religious backgrounds and neither imposes their children to follow a religion, isn't this breeding grounds for atheism?

It certainly is the case for many of my relatives who profess atheism or the rare occasion agnosticism, and because of it, it is very difficult to reason with atheists.

At least agnostics are slightly more open to discussing religion. Do you have any comment on Jenny's question slash comment?

I would say that that's probably a very accurate observation.

At the end of the day, people are going to worship something. They're going to give themselves to something. We're not a vacuum.

I certainly wasn't. I wasn't guided to believe what my mom was brought up to believe. I wasn't guided to believe what my father was kind of brought normally under as well.

So you find something to latch on to. I suppose it depends what your influences are.

I wasn't very spiritual. My sister, who obviously had similar upbringing, she latched on to spiritual things.

She went to, I think, maybe Girls Brigade or something, where Christ was mentioned and she would say the

Lord's Prayer and things like this before she became a Christian. But for me, it was David Attenborough and Evolution and whatever the

BBC or National Geographic or Discovery Channel were pumping out at any given time.

You latch on to it. I would just say to Jenny and to anyone else in a similar scenario, one of the burdens that people feel is that they aren't equipped to deal with atheism, that they don't have the answers.

They don't have the argumentation. They find themselves outsmarted, outwitted.

I would say don't worry, really. I'm all for apologetics. I enjoy apologetics.

I support those who are gifted in apologetics. I think often it can open a door where people will listen to you who otherwise wouldn't listen at all because they assume you haven't thought about it.

But at the same time, there's only the wind bloweth where it lifteth, and thou searest the sound thereof, and canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth.

So is everyone that is born of the Spirit. It's the Spirit's work to regenerate. My mom didn't have the answers.

Those young people in that car that night couldn't have answered some of the questions

I had with regard to the Bible and why it seemed folly in my secularistic mind.

But when the Lord opens their eyes, and if we would give ourselves more to prayer than trying to find the perfect answer, which somehow will open a door to their conversion,

I think we would find we are much more fruitful in our endeavours. Really pray. Give yourself to pray.

My mom was constantly in prayer. I mean constantly. She used to argue before God.

No one told her she couldn't take this text and present it to the Philippian jailer that believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house. And she used to argue, Lord, I have a son who's not saved under my house.

You must save him. She used to argue that before the Lord, and God heard her cry, there's no doubt.

And that would be my encouragement to Jenny and others like her.

If you give yourself more to prayer than the argument, you'll find that probably it's more fruitful.

People will worship something, and the Holy Spirit can turn in an instant that desire to seek um rationality, worship the mind, worship science, to turn it toward the true and living

God. Amen. We're going to our final break right now, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Armin Tomasian on the need for pastors to give themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We are going to be right back, God willing, right after these messages with Armin Tomasian and more of our discussion.

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If you just joined us, our guest today for the second hour is Armin Tomassian, and we are discussing the theme,

The Need for Pastors to Give Themselves to Prayer in the Ministry of the Word. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have a listener in Indianapolis, Indiana, who is a member of the

Free Presbyterian Church congregation in that area, Erin, who asks,

In your experience with the Free Presbyterian Pastors, do you believe it is their extraordinary devotion to prayer and preaching and studying

God's Word that makes Free Presbyterian Pastors faithful to preaching the importance of holy living and not just playing church and just adding

Christ to the life? It has been such a blessing and eye opening or eye opener to sit under men who preach more strongly against worldliness like you do, and the

Lord has transformed me since my years with the Free Presbyterian Church for that reason.

Do you credit prayer and devotion to preaching the Word? And again, that was Erin in Indianapolis, Indiana.

That's me, Chris. Yes, that is. That's a question for you. The difficulty,

I suppose, is we can't examine any man's closet, can we? It's very hard to know exactly.

But if there's power in the preaching, you can usually sense the aroma of heaven upon a man's life.

I'm thankful to God that I'm a Free Presbyterian. We are not perfect, far from perfect.

But one of the distinguishing marks of the denomination is we have men who understand.

I think this may be being the bottom line. We understand what's expected of us.

We understand what it is to give ourselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word. We don't always do it.

I don't. I know. I feel sometimes guilty of the sin that Samuel said that God forbid that I should sin against the

Lord in ceasing to pray for you. And sometimes we're guilty of that sin. But I think because of the legacy and the men that we've respected down through the years, our forefathers, as it were, and because we have a fairly rich understanding of men who have gone before.

Our college in Northern Ireland is Whitfield College of the Bible. So right there in the name, you're kind of giving a legacy of who we're meant to be following and learning from.

I think that marks a lot of our men. They're not perfect. They're far from perfect.

But they understand what they're called to do. They understand that the ministry isn't a job.

It's not a vocation. Every one of our men, as far as I'm aware, have not stepped into it because it was an easier option or a nice lifestyle.

They have prayed. God has often moved them from prosperous careers, careers that would have done well in the world, and has shifted them into the ministry.

And they have this sense that they're compelled to preach

Christ. They're compelled to seek God. And they feel this burden upon them every time they step into the pulpit.

And I would say that more than anything, feeling sinful men, but we understand what we're called to do.

Amen. Well, thank you, Aaron, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Indianapolis, Indiana and beyond.

In fact, you can include some of the elements in a sermon or even routinely in your preaching, some of the elements that Aaron included in her comment slash question, preaching against worldliness and things like that.

If you do not have the humility of the Holy Spirit, you could be nothing more than a

Pharisee on the other end of the spectrum. You could really just be pointing out the sins of others that you do not personally participate in, or perhaps you do privately, even within your heart and mind, if not externally or physically.

And that could be a great danger, too. There are many within the fundamentalist movement,

I would think, that unfortunately are guilty of that, where they're preaching against worldliness, but sometimes the gospel may be absent from those messages.

The mercy and grace of God may be absent. It could be nothing more than someone scolding you or the world outside the four walls of your church, those outside the four walls of your church for their immoral activity, but it may be devoid of all grace, mercy, and humility on the part of the preacher.

Isn't that correct? Yeah, totally, Chris. I mean, what is worldliness? I mean, if it's a list of do's and don'ts, and that's the only thing you're trying to highlight, this kind of list of what we must do and what we shouldn't do, and yet you're proud.

Well, I mean, pride is the spirit of the world, and if your understanding of the gospel and how it has worked in your heart by the spirit doesn't make you a humble man who is,

I think of the words of the Apostle Paul to Timothy, that the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, and patient and meekness instructing those that oppose themselves.

So even when you're dealing with people who are doing themselves harm, and every time we stand in the pulpit, we have before us people who have elements of things in their lives that is hindering them from Christ's likeness, but we are not to be contentious.

We're not to be trying to kind of make their life a misery, but through the joy of the gospel realize we're all sinners, and chiefest of them is the man behind the pulpit, perhaps in some ways given the weight of responsibility he has and his inability to live up to exactly what

God has called him to. So humility has to permeate everything, Chris. Amen.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who asks, In the

Free Presbyterian Church in Canada, approximately what proportion of your Sunday congregation would come out to the midweek meeting, and is there now a steady flow of men preparing for the ministry?

I was disappointed to learn that the college in the states did not have a graduation service this year because no one was graduating.

And that's Murray in Kinross, Scotland. Do you have any comments? I can't speak for all the churches.

I can speak for my own. When I came here, there was 20. At the prayer meeting you might have had about 7, 8, 9, 10, maybe around 10 or so.

Just recently that has increased more and more. So we're getting about 60 in the morning.

Tuesday was the best, so we can't mark the best as being always the case, but certainly of late we've been getting over 20, and Tuesday we had 30.

That's half of our congregation out for prayer, and that has come through my emphasis on it,

I would say, and the Spirit, of course, the Spirit working, but there's certainly been an emphasis in both my life and ministry upon the importance of prayer.

I don't know about the other churches. I'm not there. We're so far apart. It's hard to know and gauge exactly how everyone's getting on, but I'm encouraged here, at least in that regard.

As far as men, well, Jesus lamented that there's always a need for labors, and pray ye the

Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labors into the harvest. We are, as far as the denomination, we have a tremendous need for more labors.

Some might look at that and get discouraged, but discouragement, if it doesn't move you to pray, well, you're just a complainer.

You're like the murmurs in the wilderness, but if we see a time of dearth, it should drive us to our knees, which, again, is the great need for ministers to get before God and make this a point, not just including it in their prayers, but actually setting it apart.

This is a matter for prayer, just like when Peter was imprisoned in Acts chapter 12.

They weren't praying about Aunt Jenny's sore toe. They were praying about Peter to get released from prison, or at least for God to give him grace to die well.

I'm not sure exactly what they were praying, but their prayer was made of the church unto God for him, and they were praying about that matter, and this is a matter, certainly, as a denomination, we need to be praying very seriously about the need for more labors, and I'm hopeful, and I believe that God will raise them up and send them forth.

Amen. Well, thank you, Murray and Kinross Scotland. Please continue to spread the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the

UK and beyond, and a Christian in Suffolk County, New York, confirmed what you said earlier,

Armin, that Ian Paisley went home to be with the Lord in September of 2014, so that would have been three years ago, nearly three years ago.

Well, this theme that you are speaking on, I assume that you think this is a prevalent problem, that pastors are not giving themselves sufficiently to prayer and ministry of the

Word. I'm assuming you're not just preaching or intending to preach to the choir and tickle anyone's ears.

I'm assuming you think this is a serious problem in the church, is it not? You know,

Chris, I've been a pastor now for two and a half years. There's a sense in which

I might say, what do I know? I really don't know very much, and I hold my hands up and I look at the other men who are going to be preaching on that occasion.

Paul Washer was meant to be preaching as well, and because of his heart attack, wasn't able to keep that appointment.

But I suppose for me, I'm looking at what the Scripture says.

This is true. Now, if the shoe fits, then let it come where it needs to be.

I know the burden of my own heart. I know how

I feel about this constant weight of the focus of prayer and the ministry of the

Word. And I'm in a small church, so there's a temptation where I can sometimes feel that I need to be seen doing some of the more practical things.

I do that. I do it all the time. I go and cut the grass or do something else that really could be.

And as time is going on, as being delegated to other people, you're called to preach the

Word and give yourself to prayer and the ministry of the Word. And I don't really know if I can say

I have a broad enough experience of other pastors. I've certainly sat under sermons and heard sermons that seem dull, dead, empty, not really getting to the heart of the issue.

You hear a lot of complaints from people attending church. They are starved. They're hungry.

They're not being fed. This is something, I don't know if it's new, but certainly something I have heard over and over again.

And it is born... The problem is a lack of being really in the

Word and really in prayer. And so I'll just get up and see what the Scripture has called us to be and do and convey that to the men.

And if it fits, Chris, then may the Lord use it to stir hearts in the right direction.

Amen. And I don't mean to in any way, shape, or form scold or demean your congregation at all, because it is a small church and so on.

But don't you think that all too often, I mean, you may feel uncomfortable answering this, but don't you think all too often that, especially in the smaller churches, men are not rising up to do those things, those very things like the duties of the diaconate or duties of even the caretaker of the church, mowing lawns, painting the building.

Now, I'm not saying that a pastor or elder should never dirty his hands with those things. But when somebody is doing all of those things, don't you think that that congregation really needs to be lovingly rebuked, because they are indeed, perhaps unconsciously robbing their shepherd from the prayer and the ministry of the

Word that is really what he is primarily meant to do?

Yeah, I mean, that can be one problem. There's two very obvious problems, or maybe more.

One can be the minister or elders themselves can have a perfectionist spirit and think that no one else can do it as well as they can.

That's right. But on the flip side, there is a tremendous lethargy in men.

I don't know. I mean, I've said it's getting better, but sometimes

I think sometimes we can say we have better men among the women, and we have a church full of marfas, and they're more than willing to pull the weight and help, and the men just don't seem to step up or step forward or show initiative.

It's like you have to beg them to get involved. I have I've given gentle rebukes,

Chris. I have also, we have a men's meeting once a month. I have been dealing with some fundamental aspects.

I've actually been going through, I've bought a book, Family Shepherds, and that has been helpful,

I found, in helping direct these men that we have in this congregation.

More and more, some are getting involved and showing that interest, but you have to guide them as well as rebuke them.

There has to be a, and you have to be seeing, those foals need to be being fed and encouraged, but yet there is a place for rebuke.

I think in some places, though, there's a tremendous ignorance where, due to maybe weakness in ministry in their past, they've become like Homer Simpson, and you just see this, you know,

Marge has it together, Marge knows what she's doing, Homer hasn't a clue, and not that I watched the

Simpsons, but you know, years ago I did, and I know that that kind of thing permeates the entirety of society.

You have this, he's an idiot, he's a fool, he doesn't do anything, and then it kind of becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy, and so we have that problem in the church, and so I would encourage pastors to lead by example, pray much about it, and God will answer the prayers for God, for man to rise up, and certainly that's what

I find so far. Amen, and going back to what we were talking about earlier, about the need for humility in a pastor, as well as for unwavering commitment to truth and righteous indignation and warning about the evils of sin, but humility needs to be there as well, and don't you think that if a pastor is giving himself to prayer, that just because of the very fact that that man, when he is humbling himself before a sovereign righteous

God on a regular basis, if he is doing so with a true spirit of a regenerate man, of the spirit of humility, of a sinful creature bowing before a perfectly holy and righteous

God, and gracious God, and merciful God, that the humility would, you would think, flow from that, so then when he rises to his pulpit, he is already in the framework or the mindset of a humble sinful creature being used to save souls, and to draw the lost unto the

Lord, and to give a warning and rebuke to the rebels, and to give praise, honor, and glory to God, when he realizes he is just a sinful creature being given that awesome task, that the humility would be there if the prayer was also a regular part of that pastor's life.

Yeah, if you're a pastor, every day you're waging war against sin in your own heart, every day, and if your ministry flows out of a war being waged against the sin of your own life and your own heart, then by a product of that will be humility.

And also, as you perhaps look at your congregation and you see certain problems, practices, habits, that maybe you think aren't really compatible with the

Christian life, instead of you really preaching so much about every one of them, and highlighting them, and we do, we do.

You have to mention certain things, it's necessary, but if they see in their pastor that it's more than just, oh he lives by this set of rules, they see him in his pastoral prayer particularly, waging that kind of warfare against sins that they don't even think about, the self -sense, pride, asking

God to forgive us where we've wronged our wives and spouses, and being more loving, and this kind of, the things that are not seen by people, and waging war against those things, they will be dragged beyond and past and through the external stuff that maybe they shouldn't be doing into that kind of warfare of the self -sins, as Tozer called them, where most men don't see them, but you're constantly battling for more holiness in your heart, and you can't be humble without doing that.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know have you ever had to be in any way concerned about the

Canadian government from censoring what you are preaching and teaching, because I understand that in Canada you could be very seriously fined for opposing things like homosexuality.

It's come up. People mention it. I don't know to what degree they are interested in what goes on within the four walls.

Certainly there's a pastor in northern Alberta who's got into trouble because they have a school, and some of the policies of gender -neutral bathrooms, washrooms, has caused trouble there.

I don't think about it. I mean, we ought to obey God rather than men. Amen. The gospel,

I preach against the sins. If you're not addressing the sins of your nation, you're missing the mark. You're not dealing with the idolatry and all the

Baal worship of our day. If you're not addressing Baal, if you're not addressing

Moloch or whatever their forms are in our generation, then you're failing.

You're failing in a huge part of the task. We're to cry aloud and spare nought, lift up our voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression.

There's a need to preach against sin, whatever is relevant in our generation.

I don't think about it, Chris. I preach what is there, what is on my heart.

If there's repercussions for that, then as long as I know I've been preaching book, chapter, and verse, expounding

God's mind, then I'll be quite content with whatever the repercussions are.

Now, as I've been saying, you are going to be one of the featured speakers at the Foundations Conference, the conference in New York City this

June 22nd through the 23rd, being run by Sermon Audio. Is this your theme at the conference that we have been discussing today, on pastors giving themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word?

Yeah, well, I have two addresses. The first one will be dealing with prayer, the kindling of revival.

So I'll be dealing with prayer. I dealt with revival in a 15 -part series last year to the congregation in North America.

Sometimes you mention revival, people have a very skewed understanding. We're going to have revival meetings. As Duncan Campbell said, he didn't carry revival around in his pocket.

So I was trying to get the people on the same page as I am with regard to what revival is and the importance of prayer.

So I'll deal with that in the first address. We'll be dealing with prayer and how important it is in revival, how essential it is, and how

God uses prayer to really be the ignition of any outpouring of the Spirit. And then

I'll be dealing with, in the second address, in the second day, really men of the past.

I'll be calling us to follow the best examples we have in church history, at least that I can have time to make mention of, and to call those men particularly in regard to their devotional life and their prayer life.

Amen. Well, as I was mentioning earlier, if anybody would like to register for this conference, and I would look forward to meeting you there as well if you do, so make sure you find me and greet me at the

Foundations Conference, June 22nd through the 23rd. If you would like to find out more about this conference or register for it, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com. If you could now, in about two minutes' time, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Pastor Armon. I would say to your listeners, Chris, that this is the heart of the issue.

Doctrine matters. We need to have a right mind, a right understanding of who we worship, and giving ourselves to a right comprehension of the

Word of God. But if that is not coupled with and married with a real devotion, a real affection and devotion that is expressed in daily communion and regular communion with the

Lord, it will be empty, it will lead to pride, and it won't really make us the salt and light that Christ calls us to be.

If Christ gave himself to prayer, if he was constantly separating himself to prayer, then

I would encourage your listeners to begin to read history and men who really knew how to call upon God.

And then also encourage your minister, your pastor, to have more prayer meetings, more corporate prayer.

One of the things I did when I came here very quickly was just to encourage more corporate prayer. Every time there's a fifth

Sunday, we have a day of prayer whenever that lands, and we just give ourselves more and more to prayer.

Every meeting we have, men's meeting, ladies' meeting, we have prayer at all of those as well.

So just more and more giving ourselves to this exercise of prayer. And if more of the church would quit squabbling over matters and kind of getting heavily involved in things that are peripheral, instead of calling upon God in greater volume and fervor, then who knows what could happen in the midst of the dark days in which we live.

Amen. Well, if anybody would like to visit the church where Pastor Armin Tomassian pastors, if you're visiting

Canada or if you already live in Canada, especially obviously in the Alberta area, you can go to calgaryfpc .ca.

Calgary is spelled C -A -L -G -A -R -Y. F -P -C for FreePresbyterianChurch .ca.

And once again, don't forget about the Foundations Conference where Pastor Armin Tomassian is one of the many speakers.

Go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.

Do you have any other contact information you care to give, Pastor Armin? The website has it all,

Chris. I'd be happy enough to welcome anyone who is in the area or is visiting the area as well, so you can contact me.

We'll be glad to facilitate that. Great. Well, you have an open door here, Pastor Armin, to be a guest.

And in fact, if you want to hold on after the program goes off the air, I'd like to schedule you for another interview. I'll hold on,

Chris. Thank you very much for having me today. My pleasure. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater