May 5, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line.

My goodness my inbox exploded today. I was I was gone all morning and I get back in and I'd how many I must have had 40 emails. And they're real ones. They're not. I'm not talking about spam. I mean that that we took care of that, but good night.

Well part of it's sort of funny, but they're still Not what in the world? I get an email from Campus Crusade for Christ ministry resources. Great Cinco de Mayo. I Love it. I don't know how I got on that list, but I I need to I need to do something about that and Get get off that that list.

But Yes, that is that is today, isn't it? Yes five five five I had to write a what I have to write it. Oh, yeah, I was in the dentist office. I had to fill out a form and I noticed it was five five five and so that was very fascinating and stuff like that do I understand that we are we have a Special Thing at the break today, so I really need to make sure to take the break today.

Yeah. You know, you're starting to sound a little bit like the guy on Barry Young's program here. What's his name? Uh, I don't recall boy and that's what you're gonna be doomed to. No one recalling. That's that's good.

Yeah. No. Yes. We have a special. Uh, hang on here. Fix that real quick. Well, we have a Yes, we have a special spot today that we'll start running. And it's rather long is it? Yes, so I'll get a break I'll get a big break during the halfway we might actually let you get a glass of water.

Oh, that is really cool. Yeah, I Oh, I almost had the guy's name Kaminsky Simmons Simmons. Oh, well, no one knows who Barry Young is out there. That's right. But I can hear him saying nobody cares. That's the thing.

I can hear him saying it though. Can't you Bavinsky Bavinsky? Yes. Yes, but I don't have a I don't have a sultry voiced producer to sit in and and You can bring Kelly over there we go that would be the only way I could do that.

Yes. Yes. Hey, it did did tired of New Jersey. Just say that his birthday is today. Is that what he just said? No, it says Well crew bear says he'll be dead on 5 5 55. But the tired of Jersey's I will be 73 on 5 5 55 now that doesn't does that mean his birthday's not necessarily.

No, no, cuz cuz it could be any time during the preceding year. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah could be maybe I don't know. We'll probably find out here in a minute. But anyways, hey, welcome to the dividing line on Thursday afternoon and.

No, no, okay. He's saying it's no. Okay. We were gonna I was not going to sing Happy birthday Because we tried that once before it has been recorded and has been used against me in in a court of law. And so I'm not going to not going to do that in any way.

Shape or form that would be a very bad thing. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I Know that there are some folks or Pison are going. Come on Come on, get get on with something start yelling at somebody and and things like that.

But you know some days you just don't feel like yelling at anybody I you're just getting tired of having been yelled at yourself over over over again, but Anyhow, I'm looking forward to that break. In fact the time between now and then we'll just drag by because I'm so excited about it personally I really I really am but Anyway, I Would I would actually You know Half of my decision-making anymore is deciding what I should address and what I shouldn't simply because there are certain people.

That if you if you say anything about them It there it's like they are a a can of gas and any thing that you say is going to set them off they're going to explode and. So you you know, they'll say things about you and you just sit there and you just you ignore it because you need to ignore it and.

But then if you dare go that's not what happened look at this right here there they go and and then there are other people you you ignore simply because you need to ignore them because They wouldn't exist if you just consistently ignore them.

I Yeah, yeah, yeah, I some of you know who I'm talking about and I I guess I just won't respond and unless something meaningful could be done. But there's just I Don't know. I don't know how to explain it.

So we'll just take phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one is the phone number. I Didn't get very far last week because I started the third preaching obviously and I'm getting I'm cutting in and out again I don't know why but If I don't talk really really loud disappears, so That little knobby thingy.

Well, we do that so that it doesn't pick up the air conditioner in your office. Excuse me, we live in Phoenix. Okay, people don't care if there's an air, but we have to gate your microphones then that's what you're hearing people should I think people should hear more of the air conditioning my office because When I when I when I hear myself halfway through a word that sounds really odd to me.

Does it sound that way? That'll fix you right there. How about that? We're just wide open now everybody can get all the sound effects and room noise and and fans and computers and all the different things that Run in your office.

Right there. Are you done? That sounds like you're done good. Okay, I Don't know what to say. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, I didn't get very far last week in reviewing the Different Jesus book.

I have seen some very interesting responses a number of people have contacted Erdman's and And there is a fair amount of discussion concerning the You know Richard Mao and I haven't seen anything on that.

I've been sort of trying to keep an eye Whether he's gonna say anything whether he's gonna you know, and I haven't seen anything so far I would love to see some real discussion taking place, but I Don't know if that's gonna that's gonna happen.

I Did want to take a look at the issue of the book of Abraham and I've been noticing that the and I'm Unfortunately, I grabbed the actual book here. And so this isn't the one that I I actually out there it is It's question number 10.

It's on page 155 in the book. For those of you who are not familiar with what I'm talking about or you're too busy calling in the massive number of phone calls Coming in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Last week I began reading some Materials from the Robert L. Millett book a different Jesus the Christ Latter-day Saints. We have a little tract and We're we're reprinting it and I've seen some of the Mock-ups the displays of what it's gonna look like and it really looks really really neat and Much fancier than anything we've had in the past and It is called men is not God M. I am men is not God.

And a lot of people look at that and they go don't you mean man is not a God or this is no no men is Not God, that's that's what it's all about. And once you read it you discover what? Who men is and why we say that that men is not God and It is about the book of Abraham if you have not how many of you in the listening audience Have read the book of Abraham.

I remember stopping at the Provo Temple in Salt Provo lots of obviously some Provo, Utah. It's probably where the Provo Temple is located. Yeah, and The Two missionaries were Walking across the parking lot.

And so I and my friend Sort of intercepted these two missionaries and Asked them about the book of Abraham. These two missionaries were being trained they were brand-new and They They looked at us like we had just Landed from another planet when we said well, what do you think about the book of Abraham and they're like the what?

They'd never read the book of Abraham didn't know it existed. It's right there in the scriptures. They're carrying now. I know There are lots of evangelicals you could run into who? Maybe you could ask them you might be able to do, you know, trip them up with the fourth hesitations thing or You know ask them to find Habakkuk and they you know couldn't find Habakkuk.

Okay, that that's fine. So I and you gotta give the Mormons at least some credit because they've got a whole lot more books to be worrying about. But you would think that Mormon missionaries, especially would at least Know something about the distinctive scriptures that are theirs and the book of Abraham is not buried somewhere in the back of the the Book of Mormon or or something like that and So, you know, I was I was very taken aback they didn't know almost anything about it.

The book of Abraham is unique if you're not familiar with with the LDS scriptures and not many of you put your hands up. So many of you haven't read it. The book of Abraham in the LDS scriptures is extremely unique.

It really is. It is the only Book in the LDS scriptures that has illustrations illustrations and These illustrations came from Egyptian papyri from Egyptian writings That Joseph Smith took from some mummies.

He had the church by I believe is in 1834 and as a result The the book of Abraham also is unique in that about 46 times In only two chapters and it's only it's very short very very short book. It would be read in literally a matter of moments.

Was it five chapters five chapters long 46 times. You have the gods Doing this or the gods doing that and the G in gods is capitalized and Joseph Smith claimed He was translating the very writings of Abraham so, I mean this is a very it's The claims that Joseph Smith made for the book of Abraham are much greater Than the claims for the book of Mormon itself.

Now that makes the book of Abraham very important to us for the reason that we can test the book of Abraham the alleged golden plates Upon which the book of Mormon was originally written were originally were allegedly taken back to heaven.

So it's not like you can test those things. The only way we can test the book of Mormon Is to go well does the book of Mormon? Oh Well, I'm very sorry to see that. Someone who is going to be calling in I think calling in later in the program has to go as mom's been taken to the emergency room, so we'll have to Pray the Lord's will be done there and that As you rush there, please do not drive in a crazy fashion and Trust the Lord will take care of those situations.

So someone on our channel someone very close to us very important the ministry his mom's been taking the emergency room. Just saw that so this is live those of you listening on archive. Obviously, it's not but All right.

We'll be praying. See you later and let us know what happens and we'll of course pray for his mom. Going back to the the book of Abraham. We can test the book of Abraham. We can test it because of the fact that Not only have the papyri from which it was originally translated and found but even apart from that and that's that is where You encounter the issue the Mormon Church one of the Mormon Church defenses is that we really don't have the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was translated.

I think that you can demonstrate that we have I think it is It takes a tremendous amount of ingenuity to try to get around The papyri discovery that was made but the fact the matter is we don't need that we have the Facsimiles that are in the book of Abraham we have the pictures we have what the what Joseph Smith said they meant and We then can Determine from that whether he understood what they actually did mean.

So on so forth and when we do that we discover that the book of Abraham is in fact a Portion of the Egyptian book of the dead. It has nothing to do with Abraham. Joseph Smith did not identify any of the people in the facsimiles in a proper fashion within the context in which the original authors of those those writings and those drawings would have understood them and this is the the essence of The tract men is not God.

We didn't even get into the manuscript material because it can become quite complex, but the by the way there are excellent books on this Charles Larson's book on the book of Abraham papyri very very good the Mormon responses are extremely confusing and Very very poor in there in their substance.

Well. Given all of that and we have two callers online. Well I think we have two colors in line, I only know of one at the moment, but there we go. Oh, okay. Let me at least read The section that is presented by and it goes.

There's more discussion of the book of Abraham and the recurring questions part than there is of God being exalted man from another planet which is interesting and. But once again, this is what's being put out by Erdman's and you tell me Erdman's has told Erdman's has told all of us that the intention of this book is to explain what Mormons believe about Christ.

Not to persuade or convert. Okay, that's interesting. Then why do we have an entire section defending the book of Abraham? Book of Abraham has next to nothing to do with these. These specific doctrine of Christ.

It is where you get the name of Kolob the star that the the gods planet circles. But it's not I mean, what's this doing in here if this is not a part of apologetics. Question number ten. Do not recent translations the so-called Joseph Smith papyri by experts demonstrate the book of Abraham as a hoax now.

Even by putting it in that form You can see what's going to happen here. The clear Embarrassing Errors of Joseph Smith in his identification of the facsimiles. Can be skipped over and are skipped over.

Here's what here's what he writes. In the summer of 1835 members of the church purchased from Michael Chandler for mummies and Two or more papyrus scrolls that have been discovered in Egypt by a man named Antonio labolo.

Joseph Smith showed little interest in mummies, but was fascinated by the papyri through the use of the Urim and Thummim. Joseph began to translate the scrolls with W W Phelps and Oliver Cowdery ascribes.

I Commenced the translation of some of the characters of hieroglyphs Hieroglyphics and much to our joy found that one of the scrolls contained the writings of Abraham and other the writings of Joseph of Egypt Etc a more full account of which will appear in its place as I proceed to examine or unfold them.

Truly we can say the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth. That is from the messenger and advocate. December 1835 note that in the prophets 1 October 1835 journal entry. He stated that during the research the principles of astronomy is understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding.

Early on Oliver Cowdery reported that when the translation these valuable documents will be completed. I'm unable to say now that I give you a probable idea how large volumes they will make but judging from their size and the Comprehensiveness of the language one might reasonably expect to see us to see a sufficient.

Might reasonably expect to see a sufficient to develop much upon the mighty axe. I think there's a typographical error there somewhere. It doesn't make any sense of the ancient men of God and of his dealing with the children of men.

When they saw him face to face in 1838 and some call visited the prophet in far west Joseph invited him in said sit down. We will read you from the translations the book of Abraham. Oliver Cowdery then read until he was tired.

When Thomas Marsh read now note this comment making all together about two hours I was much interested in the work the book of Abraham and the three facsimiles as we now have them. The pearl great price.

Were published in the Times and Seasons in March of 1842. In the first one February 1843 issued the Times and Seasons editor John Taylor Encouraged the Saints to renew their subscriptions of the paper adding the following intriguing detail.

We would further state that we had the promise of brother Joseph to furnish us with further extracts in the book of Abraham. The history of the papyri after the death of the prophet in 1844 is somewhat sketchy.

The Egyptian relics were kept by Lucy Mack Smith Joseph's mother until her death and then sold by Emma Smith bitumen Justice widow who remarried to a mr. A Combs. Combs sold to the mummies with some papyri to the st. Louis Museum in 1856 and later in 1863 There sold the Chicago Museum later renamed the Woods Museum.

It has generally been assumed that all the pyre destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. However in 1967 announces was made that dr. Aziz Atiyah a professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Utah Found had found 11 papyrus fragments including facsimile number one in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Not being allowed to say himself. He was a cop to Christian, but being familiar somewhat familiar with LDS culture and the Pearl of Great Price. Dr. Atiyah recognized facsimile number one and made contact with church leaders who eventually took possession of the papyri fragments.

When the announcement was made that the papyrus fragments have been acquired both committed Latter-day Saints and critics of the faith were intrigued. By what would come of the find the latter group?

Exalted that once for all once and for all the book of Abraham could be exposed for what it was a figment of Joseph Smith's fertile imagination. The translations 11 fragments in the facsimile by trained Egyptologist revealed parts the ancient Egyptian book of breathings an excerpt of the larger book of the dead which are actually funerary texts material associated with the burial and future stay of the dead.

In other words The fragments presumably had nothing to do with the person and work of Abraham. In response the late H Donald Peterson professor of ancient scripture BYU and serious student the book of Abraham replied the book of Abraham and Joseph papyri Were described as beautifully written on papyrus with black and a small part red ink or paint in perfect preservation.

The 11 fragments recovered from Metropolitan Museum of Arts in New York City do not fit that description at all. What was discovered was facsimile one and some other fragments unrelated the published account of the present book of Abraham.

They were part of the original scrolls once owned by Joseph Smith. But not directly related to Abrahamic text. The partial text the book of breathings returned to the church in 1967 was not the text of the book of Abraham and quote Professor Pearson went on to say it the book of Abraham was not finished.

In fact, it was hardly begun. The book of Abraham was a lengthy record all over. Cowdery spoke of volumes necessary to contain it. Only two short installments were published during Joseph Smith lifetime.

Although more was promised had not Joseph Smith's last 16 months been so turbulent. No doubt more of the translation would have been forthcoming as he had promised. We have but a small fraction of a rather lengthy record.

Is the book of Abraham. True elder Bruce R McConkie asked yes, he answered but it is not complete it stops almost in midair. Would that the Prophet had gone on his translation or revelation as the case may be.

And. Quote end of discussion and it moves on to the next question by Dr. Millett now. Again, if you are not familiar With the Subject of the book of Abraham Then that may sound rather convincing. If you have read the Larson work if you've read what the tanners have written if you have read nibbly.

If you have looked at Joseph Smith's Egyptian alphabet and grammar, you know that that is a purposefully skewed inaccurate. But the best the Mormons can do as far as an apologetic for the book of Abraham, but it's an apologetic.

That's not an explanation. That's an excuse. So what's it doing in a book that Erdman's tells us is not meant to persuade. It's not meant to convert. It's only meant to inform. No, it's not that is specifically designed to deflect as best it can the arguments and the the Documentation that exists demonstrating that the book of Abraham as Joseph Smith claimed is a complete and total fraud and The documentation shows us to be the case we do have the documents from which the book of Abraham was allegedly translated we have Joseph Smith's Egyptian alphabet and grammar and It's interesting to me that the new defenses being offered of The book of Abraham since you know, I mean nibbly came up with I don't know how many different self contradictory defenses.

But in the years since nibbly became rather aged Really end up disproving their own case. For example Part of what was just said here Was well look at all these citations that say that the book of Abraham was supposed to be very big in it.

It might take many volumes. Well, you know what one of the really embarrassing things about the Egyptian alphabet and grammar Which is probably what was being read from and what bored that guy to tears is the fact that Joseph Smith took Sections of the book of the dead he took individual hieroglyphic characters like that that like the the symbol for the word moon or water or If there was a word a word that took two symbols He'd take half of those two symbols one of those two symbols and in the Egyptian alphabet and grammar next to it.

You'd have an entire paragraph of English all allegedly contained in this one simple tiny little pictogram and So it's easy to understand why they felt it would be so huge when they had this whole scroll and They're getting entire paragraphs out of each individual character in the papyri.

Of course, if you went through the entire papyri, the result would be huge. I Believe the fact that even laying aside the papyri that were found What Joseph Smith describes in the book of Abraham in the facsimiles is not What those facsimiles?

Represented. Facsimile number one is not the angel of the Lord and Abraham fastened upon an altar. Facsimile number one is a well-known picture from Egyptian funerary materials. Yeah, we have the whole track online if you go to a omin org slash min tracked and min is capitalized capital M.

Then min tracked m-i-n-t-r-a-c-t-h-t-m-l. It's available for all look at that. That doesn't have facsimile number one. It has facsimile number two in it, which is an Egyptian hypocephalus it is a object that's placed under the head of the deceased and Just you know it look at what Joseph Smith claimed these things are and Then read what?

Egyptologists say they are and you can see for yourself now. You would have no idea of any of this you'd know you would know nothing about the Egyptian alphabet and grammar you'd know nothing about the facsimiles if you just simply read what Erdman's is putting out at the recommendation of Richard Mao of Fuller seminary and Publishing LDS apologetics works.

And distributing them to Christian bookstores isn't that exciting. I I personally am quite excited about it myself. But that's what's that you wouldn't know that now I'm sorry, but if the position was reversed you know I suppose I I do fully understand for example such things as word length limitations and You know page number limitations, and there's just only so much you can do, but you know what?

That presentation the book of Abraham is just simply dishonest. I'm sorry. That's the only way to put it. It's dishonest. That's not dealing with the issue. That's that is just simply trying to Keep someone who has heard maybe some criticism of it to in essence put that off and And dismiss it.

Hopefully by the point at which it is addressed in the book Millett has grabbed your your Trust enough that you can then just put that off to the side see that's that's what I see happening. And it's again extremely frustrating.

Because you know The real information that's out there that has not been actually dealt with and dealt with in an honest fashion 877 -753 -3341 we're gonna take our break and then come back with your phone calls right after this.

But you're ready today. So many stars strong and true quickly fall away.

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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day. Christians around the globe are having the very foundation of their faith challenged at an unprecedented level from every imaginable source.

Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures been so viciously attacked. By those outside the pale of orthodoxy and within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself.

Questions that plague the steadfast Christian from the onslaught of Bible skeptics such as the Jesus seminar the DaVinci Code and Wolves and sheeps clothing meet many without needed answers. Is the Bible a product of man not of God?

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Is the Bible true? Join us August 26 and 27th for the 2005 Alpha and Omega Ministries National Conference in Seattle, Washington. As we answer the tough questions and challenge the false presuppositions of the skeptics and deniers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

With the founders president and director dr. Tom Askell. The director of Baptist Studies Center at Westminster Theological Seminary dr. James Renahan. Grammy Award-winning reformed Christian musician Steve Camp and President and founder of Alpha Omega Ministries. Dr. James White.

And. On Saturday the 27th of August don't miss the most important debate of 2005 Dr. James White versus Jesus seminar chairman and Bible critic. Dr. John Dominic Russell. Is the orthodox biblical account of Jesus of Nazareth authentic and historically accurate?

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So sign up today at AOMM org or call 877 753 3 -3 -4 -1. Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book.

The same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law. In a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omin org.

How the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

And welcome back to the dividing line. Wow that was that that that was that was commercial. Somebody tells that's gladiator music now. It's but I might be the no I don't think it is the same guy, but it's that was cool music.

Yeah, that was neat anyways. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I need to have a little button that I can push that zaps rich with some electricity wakes him up so that he can see the little thing with Bobby on the.

That I that I you know it's a way I communicate to him. Because I asked a question, and I don't yet have an answer and some this is called stretching or you you talk okay? It is okay well. Then he'll understand why I'm going the direction that I'm going with calls see and That'll be really cool.

So you you got buttons over there. I gave you buttons. You can push whatever buttons you want that doesn't tell me that doesn't answer the question that I asked you however I Asked about who's on the other line see and I can press buttons all I want and that's not gonna Tell me well the answer I did.

You did. Yes, you did and I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Oh boy. Yeah, okay. We've been talking about Mormonism the past couple weeks. So how much more fitting could it possibly be than to talk with?

The official favorite Mormon of The dividing line webcast and of the broadcast back even when we were on kpxq. Our favorite Mormon. Pierre hi Pierre. Did should we should we like print out a little certificate for you.

Would that get you in trouble with the bishop it might. Yeah, I think if he came for his Visit and saw that on the wall that he might wonder how in the world that happens. So we won't we won't do that to you.

We'll we'll we'll keep it on the sly. Okay, have you seen the book yet? I have not. Oh, okay. Are you gonna look take a look at it? I'll probably well. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so what can we do for you?

Well, I just was calling to make some comments on some of the things that you talked about the last couple of times, right? One of them having to do with repeated Mentioning that there appears to be a Apparent doctrinal shift on the part of the church evangelicalism.

Well, I might be overstating it yeah.

Yeah, well, and I'm not the only one that's mentioned what is being called the the neo-orthodox movement. That's focused around people like Steven Robinson. I mean the the fact that there are people at BYU Who really really really dislike the doctrinal writings of Bruce R. McConkie is is well known, right?

I'm not so sure that I would agree with that. I might be your perspective on it.

Yeah, are you are you saying that that's not well known or that you don't agree that there's a difference? I mean, I I've talked I've talked to these folks myself. Oh, well, then maybe maybe you're correcting I haven't.

I mean Let's put it this way. Have you seen? The comment that Dr. Peterson made when he said that the idea that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh is based upon. How do you put it? Specific words just gave mine of mine random 19th century speculations, but they hadn't that it that he had never heard that taught in the church.

Really? Yeah, and that amazing. I.

Find that hard to believe that I'm that's what I mean. What I wanted to mention to you is that I've been a member of the church for 35 years. And I Can tell you that it's from my perspective. I don't see any doctrinal shift at all taking place.

Okay, I don't think that there's any concern. He's from my perspective and from any of my other Orthodox Mormon friends. That there's any attempt to shift away from traditional.

Mormon doctrine. Well, tell me did you hear my my reading of what Was said by by Millett regarding the concept of God having been a Having been a man. Yeah, and would you would you say that? A Person saying well, you know what?

We don't. We just don't know much about the idea of God being a man and and this really isn't central to our theology. Do you think that's? That's accurately representing the regularity with which the King fall at funeral discourse.

Has been has been cited Over the past 35 years. You've been the LDS Church in your priesthood. Manuals.

I would say the answer is actually yes, and I was gonna be my second comment. Okay, and I'll tell you why in the 35 plus years that I've been a member of the church and a regular attender of priesthood meetings and some we Really almost never Discuss these.

I mean, we know that there and they'll you know pop up maybe once in a great while. But they're never a central focus of our discussion. In fact, I was sort of surprised when you two or three years ago.

Apparently from one of our manuals. Yes for Teaching people to be prepared for the temple. Mm-hmm. Which seemed to very clearly teach that particular situation? No, it does yes, and so I said, yeah, I never heard of that before being presented that clearly and so I think that he's absolutely correct and what he has said that You know, we just really do not discuss these doctors.