Hebrew Israelite History: The Fractured 90s

What's up y 'all welcome to the dividing line. I kind of want to call it the DL the whole time I like that DL. You know my name is vocab alone. There is no dr. James white in the studio today. We're missing him, but I think this is gonna be a historic episode.

I hope that he enjoys it. But most of all I'm praying that this episode is used by the Lord to bless folks in the studio chillin with rich. What's up, rich always good to see you, and let me give a brief introduction to date today's very special show why we're doing it all of that a Little while ago the Lord brought to my attention a movement happening in our cities called the Hebrew Israelites.

Sometimes people call them different names. We're just gonna call them the Hebrew Israelites a name. I think they're okay with and Over time I took more and more note of it mainly because of the interesting mixture of doctrines and The effect it was starting to have on the minds of a lot of my friends on the minds of people I've come across with.

And also out in the streets when you're walking out and about and you hear somebody shouting all of that so The Lord has opened up a pathway for me to really begin to kind of dig in and try to understand this community better.

The Hebrews are like community. I've learned a lot since I've done this. There's things I would have done differently, but I would have if I could if I would be starting right now but here we are and I'm very thankful to Alpha Omega mystery ministries and James white because he heard some of the stuff I was doing and said Hey, let's talk to that guy and the guy that I'm talking about, of course is out of a car geocc and What's happened is there's just been a new light that has shined on this very important issue.

And I I'm thankful that the Lord has done it that way. He's using imperfect vessels, but I'm glad it's happened. I'm glad that apology was down. I'm glad that a lot of people kind of took a step took a risk and something they didn't really know about.

They weren't really sure people would even be interested in if it was relevant. But they took a chance and now we see it is relevant. It is important and so I'm gonna read a scripture out of the King James Version from Titus and then I'm gonna bring up our guest today and explain what we're doing in relationship to this issue that has been popping up especially over the past couple months sort of in the apologetic world, which is Discussing the claims of the Hebrew Israelites today.

We're gonna discuss their history in a new way that I don't think has ever been done before Titus chapter 3 Verses 8 and 9. This is a faithful saying and these things I will that thou affirm Constantly so it's supposed to do this frequently and competently that they which have believed in God.

This this is a way to say those who have believed in the gospel might be careful to maintain good works. That means it's something we're thinking about and doing constantly. So the belief comes first notice, but then There's an attention in our life to good works.

We don't do away with good works. We believe but then the belief produces good works. Next verse these things are good and profitable unto men and even in that little verse is the refutation I think of some of Hebrew Israelite theology because the implication throughout the book of Titus and in this verse 8 especially is the good and profitable for all kinds of men all men you see that now.

What's really best and profitable for men to know the truth to know Christ to be free from sin to embrace the gospel? And here's why I wanted to read this. Listen to verse 9 everyone. But avoid that means like it's something's in a road and you real quick, right?

But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law for they are Unprofitable and vain. So one thing you go for which is the gospel the other thing you avoid foolish questions.

Honestly, I think it's a foolish question. How you pronounce a certain paleo Hebrew word based upon a speculation of how you've Reconstructed an alphabet that you'd have no access to the vocalizations to.

That's a foolish question. And Genealogies. Hebrew Israelite theology is all cut up in genealogies. In fact, they preach the gospel of the twelve tribes chart now listen I know some Hebrews are like vocabs already tripping.

Doesn't you know, we're not all the same. Yes, I do. But I do know that if you call yourself a Hebrew Israelite Generally speaking the key thing that drives you together is this idea of the twelve tribes and there's a primacy put in your theology.

If you have the gospel first praise God but a lot of y 'all got the gospel way back here or the gospel is so misdefined it's no longer the gospel and Contentions another translation says dissensions this whole thing Brings dissension.

It says you can't even make into the kingdom except as a servant or it says you can make it into the kingdom but only if you're underneath me because of my ethnic heritage and. And strivings about the law or sometimes say quarrels about the law.

It's like the old-school Judaizers sit around talk all day about what you can and cannot do and on the Sabbath this type of thing. You got some similar debates man going on like how to wear your fringes and this and that.

It gets real tedious and you lose sight of Christ and that's why Paul says for they are Unprofitable and vain. So listen, even if you don't agree with what about to do and say today it's because of passages like this why this is passionate to us because we see that and we see something that's Flipping the order of priorities for God's people.

So with that I want to bring up my man Kodosh. Kodosh is calling from a secret Undisclosed location and he is a former Hebrew Israelite insider Who is gonna help just do a walkthrough of the timeline, but especially in the Hebrew Israelite History of the what I'm gonna call the fractured 90s.

Welcome to the dividing line Kodosh. What up, man? Greetings greetings. Thanks for joining us. So yo, man, you want to comment real quick on anything? I've said already and maybe give a brief induction of yourself before we jump into this thing.

Sure, I mean no comment I just concur with. Everything that you put forth and my involvement with the Hebrew Israelite organization was was throughout the 90s very much in its heyday where it emerged out of the you know, sort of the you know kind of out of the dark and primarily in Harlem, New York and started going public with The street camps Times Square 34th Street and a lot of that stuff where they came out into the limelight really before the advent of the Internet and You know began to encounter You know people out there on the streets and just just started to make their waves pretty much.

That was the era that I had got involved now a lot of times. Hebrew Israelites Don't really seem to have an awareness now. I'm not saying everybody but a lot of dudes especially the newer dudes of their history.

And they kind of act like this has always been there now. We're not really focusing on the old old school stuff today, but we don't want to totally neglect it. So briefly say something about what you know about a man named Abba Bivens and his importance in this.

Yeah. Well, he goes back. He goes back to the origins of what became upk.

For everybody that's universal practical knowledge and a lot of times people just say the upk because the first two Parts of the acronym or sometimes change either is or I see so when you hear upk or upk.

It's someone affiliated with that stream of the movement, it's very Harlem not as much Chicago. There's sort of a different stream there. We're really kind of focusing as of now on the New York side. Is that correct?

That's right. All right, a completely different route out there, right?

Yeah, maybe in some ways some healthier tendencies. I'm not saying it's all good. But from what I can ascertain some healthier tendencies perhaps I think so. All right, definitely.

I've spent time with those guys out there as well Upon my leaving the school, but yeah, as far as our Abba Bivens, he was the teacher of I believe it was the Israelite school of the Torah. All right that time and He would have been Yai Quob's Teacher.

Who's Yai Quob? Yeah, Yai Quob is Ariar's father the man that is credited for the twelve tribes.

All right chart and sign the Lasharon Kodosh, which is that that alternative Hebrew? Exactly. Okay. Now now what's the time frame in general when we go back to Abba Bivens in general? We're in the late 60s.

Oh.

That yeah, go back about about that far. Yeah, sir. Before that's before I was born, but um, yeah for certain.

There's a bunch of probably. Yeah, bunch of stuff that happens. You want to jump right into sort of the early 90s now. I mean that's that there's a lot of stuff happening before then. But basically things kind of grew then they kind of split but I mean When do you jump on and what was the stuff that happened right before you jumped on that you were aware of that was important?

When you talk about Hebrew Israelite history.

Yeah I Jumped. I officially joined the school in about 95. So right the second half of the 90s. Right at the well to go back. Before that you had the one solid school, which was ISU PK Israelite School of Universal Practical knowledge.

My experiences with them were just you know, when I would be strolling through through Manhattan Midtown You know I would come across the camps. Had no idea who they were as I thought they were something related to ex-clan at first standing out there with the big.

Staffs and decked out and stuff. For those who don't know ex-clan is a Mid -90s kind of what you might call africentric hip-hop group, but alright, I can see you say that. Alright. Yeah, yeah.

Few years later. I ran into a brother who who had I used to do music with. And I hadn't hadn't connected in a couple of years and next thing I'm seeing him, you know with a big star David on Massive sideburns, he's got a completely different demeanor and so we had a conversation.

About you know, all of a sudden he looked like the Jewish Shack or what? Yeah, yeah, I'm at shafts. That's what my pronunciation. Well Jewish shaft, right? Right, right. All right. So what's he say? What's he say?

When you talk to this man? Well, it was actually the hip-hop nightclub and I bumped into him. We just finished performing and I said wow. Because because I was always a seeker I used to like, you know Walking through through New York City and checking out what I used to call the different sidewalk religions, right?

The Muslims of fathers and it's all these different groups. Rastafarians. Whatever you have and so I was curious what he was into and I had asked him What are you a Rasta now? Because I saw the big show I David, you know, and You know, he was like hell no, you know, Holly Celeste.

He's a fraud. He's not a real Jew and you know from right there. We started going into the scriptures. He started showing me Deuteronomy 28, right? And I had you know kind of from the beginning man hook line and sinker.

I had just bought right in what appeal.

To you about like his style of exegesis and the way he moved through. You know that. What what grabbed you if you if you could take yourself back. What was it? Yeah.

Yeah, just the boldness confidence and what what he believed, right? I had never seen anybody Represent the Bible with that type of you know, I was used to churches etc. And and that sort of thing, you know, I had never seen anyone Appear to have a command of the scriptures like that.

He was he was citing a lot of verses that of course you wouldn't talk about in church, right? A lot of things out of the Old Testament and looking at things in a you know. What seemed to be a deeper insight into the Bible and I was intrigued, you know I was absolutely intrigued by it and wanted to know more and kept kind of coming around and learning and learning.

It took me about two years to finally visit the school in my area and Originally I had had went to the school. We you know, we mean a few brothers a handful of brothers had looked at some of their claims and found it.

You know, what about this issue right here? What about the Gentiles? Are they just reading right over this?

And. So it occurred up. Can you give it? I know what you're talking about, but can you give an example so you here's what happened? You're kind of getting familiar with some of the claims made by Hebrew Israelite proponents and you're seeing things in the scripture as you study him that you feel are incongruent with the main thesis now.

What are some examples of some things you felt like were bumps that you wanted to bring up or talk about? In the Old Testament the laws of the stranger which explain it explain a little bit if you kill it.

Okay. You have let me have my sword here. Well, I mean you all got it, you know. Quote. I'm just trying to give people an idea of things that don't match up, you know.

Right. Um, so we're looking at. I was looking at verses passages like Isaiah 56 let not the son of the stranger Say the Lord has utterly separated me from his people It said the Lord said I will give them a name in my house better than that of sons and daughters.

Passages like The option out of bore and eat a mite, you know, right you see that there's a new a new man. It's like Hey, it has a Hebrew israelite doing. He's like follow the commandments follow the law and then it goes to the commandment says do not Abhor and eat a mite and then it shows the Hebrews are like looking like, huh?

Now that what I've heard is dudes basically say that's been abrogated in some way for everyone to understand.

That was that was the retort that they had given me. I first trip to the school was to try to. We believed a lot of what they were saying. But we also had some some issues with it, right? Passages in the New Testament about the Gentiles and so I first trip there was to kind of.

Discuss that right. Okay. How'd that go? How'd that go?

It didn't I Think we were just sort of impressed with their presentation. Okay, and Something clicked in my mind and I said to myself The verses the passages on Gentiles in the scriptures are so Prevalent and littered everywhere throughout the New Testament.

They have to be Seeing they have to be getting around this somewhere and something clicked in my head where I said I I guarantee you what they're going to say. I told a brother that I was going to the school.

I said I guarantee you what they're gonna say is that these are not real Gentiles. These are Israelites Gentile state of mind, right. And sure enough.

That's. That's exactly what what they said, you know, but yet you joined, right?

And and we kind of stuck around we didn't you know. We kept coming up for a little while and hearing the other parts of the breakdowns and and and just being impressed with all these. You know young men that were zealous for right, you know.

What we what we believe to be, you know, the Lord's truth the Lord's Commandments and stuff like that.

Well before we get into some of the craziness with maybe the splits and the personalities. Maybe share up what you might call a positive or warm memory, you know I'm saying because sometimes people look at this is all bad.

But you see a lot of these groups man got a real brotherhood and kinship and I remember you brought that up. I'd like you to hear a little bit kind of share the inside. Of some of the good side of what it's like to be around this joint.

Right, right. Well, one of the things it was it was sort of like joining a gang. You had, you know. You were welcomed into a family. Mm-hmm you know and The activity was far beyond was nothing like going to church, right, you know.

Brothers were purposeful. They were disciplined. They were they were unit. All right, they were organized. You know you had you know, like I said, you just you got into this family of brotherhood that um.

You know. It was a very exciting thing when you I said before when you when you looked at the book of Acts. And you still like that movement of the disciples the bonds that they had they were always about their business.

It wasn't something that you did. Part time like like, you know going to church on Wednesday night Bible studies and Sunday morning. And then you kind of went back to your life. Your life pretty much revolved around the school, right?

Every day. And you said it was like if you got a new pair of socks. Dudes knew about it, right, right. Stan you know, that's that's a certain level of community. And you shared one other thing about Francis Schaeffer.

With a new convert to Christianity. Can you share that briefly. Because I want people to see some of the appeal. Oh Francis Chan. My bad. I thought I'd say for okay Francis Chan.

Yeah, who's it was a short clip where Francis Chan had talked about a young gang member Who had joined the church? Mm-hmm and after a while he stopped attending. Yeah and so a couple of brothers from the church decided to pay him a visit and see how he was doing and they asked him What was wrong and you know his his response was that he said, you know when I was in the gang and I got jumped into the gang I Had a family right we were constantly together.

It was ongoing 24 7, you know, if I wasn't with them, they were with me and you know, right. It was like a like a pride, you know, yeah. So he said, um, he said I'm sorry. He said I uh, you know, I just I just had it wrong in my mind I didn't realize it was just you know, Wednesdays and Sundays.

Like I had said, yeah and Francis chance response to that was was like No, he said you didn't have it wrong. He said the church has got it wrong, right? Point he was trying to make is that we need to be that community.

So before we switch over man, I want people to stop for a second. You know instead of just mocking people or however you want to get and realize that there is a gap a lot of times and our evangelical communities and fellowships and there's Things missing a lot of times and so you can see that There's a need there in a group like the Hebrew Israelite, which we believe has Some other things.

Yeah, okay.

Is is that part of the package would often cause you to overlook some of the downside? I think so. I think so. Um, even if something clicked in your head did I don't think those brothers are breaking that down, right?

Right, right. You know, there was. You know, you valued the brotherhood there so much that yeah a lot of brothers, you know. They wouldn't say that straight up in the environment there, but you might catch someone to be honest with you on the side.

Yeah, you know, but then nobody was gonna go against the grain for sure.

Well, what were some of the things that were being taught and here's what I really want to start focusing on. What were some of the developments you saw firsthand? Everyone this is pay attention. So we're switching a little bit from personal to kind of more broad stuff going on.

But what did you see some of the doctrinal developments and changes that were happening sort of right in front of your eyes?

Yeah, I came in at an interesting time, right because it was right at the cusp of the division between.

My shot and Aria who was my shot.

My Shaw was he was one of the seven heads of the school. Aria had somehow dubbed him the reincarnate. These brothers believed heavy into reincarnation, right?

Now this is important everybody. Reincarnation in most camps, I think G OCC rejects it but reincarnation a lot of camps is very very important to them and. Yes, kind of a logical corollary if you think about it is.

Well, maybe we could figure out like who's who? So my shot was a dude who got dubbed as King David. David. Now who was area. Who was area supposed to be?

Aria was as they would call him John the Revelator. Okay. All right. He was John the Revelator. Okay. The very Apostle John my shot also supposedly had several reincarnations. He was Moses. He was also You know King David and he was the Apostle Peter.

Dang. This is kind of like.

Yeah, check it out if you've ever seen GI Joe, okay in the 1986 series. They wanted a new leader because Cobra commander was like dropping the ball, right and so dr Meinbender industrial went behind Cobra commanders back and they they combed the tombs of all of history's greatest military leaders such as Genghis Khan and Vlad the impeller and Napoleon etc, etc.

Snag the DNA and then put it sort of into a genetic Genetic blender and made serpent or who's supposed to be like the ultimate Cobra Emperor, you know. This sounds like when my shot got going on a little bit.

Sorry, there's a couple of y 'all get that reference, but okay, so that's who my shot supposed to be. We know area supposed to be now what's going on with those dudes. Oh, well, it was a mistake that I made it.

I think he later came to regret because he ascribed my shot more authority and power to himself.

Right because my shots King David and Moses. All right, okay.

There were there were certain verses in the Bible they would use and the people will seek to their King. They also use one of the passes in Deuteronomy 28 about your King will go with you into captivity.

Yeah, you know, this is a little side note. But I just noticed one of the problems with the interpretation of Deuteronomy 28 something I just saw. You know our mutual friend point out on the Facebook group.

He was saying what King went with the folks during the transatlantic slave trade. That was that was a killer. That's verse 27, right? Right. That's important. That's an important verse. And uh the way you guys just he just kept on asking the question and you realize there's Not really an answer to this.

That was good. That's because the emphasis is always well. You know, we we're the only people who fit right each and every exact prophecy in there. But I'll say that they will say that. However as we both know, there's only certain verses.

They'll necessarily grab out of Deuteronomy 28 and have anything in common with the transatlantic. So while they say that well, well, you got to fit each and every detail to be the applicant for this prophecy.

There's a lot that they glaze over as well. All right. So let's talk about.

Is the first major break with the Shah splitting off would you say?

Yeah, there was as we talked about there was the Sons of Thunder over in Brooklyn a little bit earlier on. I Wouldn't exactly call it a split. It was just camps that that did their own thing their own way and UPK Ended up disassociated.

They did come up to Harlem quite a bit and a few of those Brooklyn brothers joined and moved out to Harlem. The majority a lot of them stayed out there and. And.

Kind of did things their own way. So everyone knows there used to really be a lot more centralized unity and in this movement. Oh for sure. And what's interesting is people think that a nation-building thing is happening, but actually the opposite is happening.

There's fracturing and we're talking about these 90s splits, but now it's even more. Yes, and so that split is what. House of David. Is that correct?

That was called House of David because I think David right is David. All right, it's main loyal to my shot from what I understand. It's you know, there was always there was frequency right after that.

It was a there was frequent splits and a lot of it had to do with personal Personal differences Vendettas even and stuff like that, but it would always come out. It would always present as it was something doctrinal, right?

So from what I understand is my shot and Aria went their separate ways over money and Aria and those brothers from from one West ended up paying visits to the other schools and Tried to sort of get out in front of that right give their explanation of why that went down.

You know, I tried to retract on the marshall was King David thing. You know, he tried to downplay that and back metal Reincarnated but none of us are sure exactly who we are. We were wrong about that, right?

Did anybody ever tell you. Did anybody ever tell you had to be somebody really sick, right? Right, you know sure. Yeah.

So with that then. Now, let's let's look at House of David for a little bit. There was a split within that with Tahar. I believe. Right, right. What goes down with that was the second split? So so everyone knows to horror is still active and I would say quite important.

And what's going on in this? And from what I understand is really the first Man to get his camp to really utilize the power of YouTube, which is now kind of standard practice among the groups. But he was the one to really jump on that and he's over GMS now.

Great millstone and uh. What's going on there with that split kadash?

Tahar used to. Tahar goes way back, right? He used to go out and street preach with our ya.

You can see him on times Times Square and stuff and a lot of times. He's like areas reader even.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's he was a lot younger at that time. He was coming up in the ranks. Yeah. So ha for some reason made himself a lot of enemies. He was kind of brash and you know, he stood his ground on whatever he believed.

Didn't compromise too much. He had a loyal following. Right and started to kind of leave his is good just naturally people sort of flock to him. You either loved him or hated him. Yeah, you know and.

As you see he is a You know somewhat of a charismatic figure. I like look on a personal level. As I've gotten to know some of these guys, I like to heart. He's always making jokes. He strikes me as funny.

He's got like nicknames for everybody. And he always will like relate something to a movie, you know who like what's. It's just it just strikes me is you know. This dude, you know, okay, but the funny thing is he's over GMS, which is really the most tripped-out crew in my opinion.

But yet there's this dude that I kind of feel like a warm affection for like check out this guy. All right, I could listen to him. You know, I don't mean like it's accurate. I'm just saying on a personal level kind of enjoying him.

You know I'm saying.

Right, he does. He was. Oh, you know, he was always a showman on the streets and he was one of the more enjoyable. Yeah. Teachers out there to watch, you know.

Yeah, I mean I can say I mean if you know, I'd be. I mean I could see going over to Horace house. You know kicking. I don't know if you'd have me but I'm you know, you know. Okay. So what's up with Tahar in Cornelius.

Because my understanding is that's a key Piece to all this going down Tahar Cornelius.

Explain brother. So I was the first but they always had a breakdown of acts 10 and x -15 to do with Cornelius because that was obviously sort of a monkey wrench in in the.

The Gentiles can't be saved up because it is always us. It appears Cornelius is not by any stretch of the imagination and is real light. I mean just read the text and you can see how Peter speaks to him.

You can see the way he's described. So all of a sudden this dude is it looks like he's in the mix, right? So, how do they explain it back then?

They the explanation kind of jumped around a little bit. One of the some brothers that go back in the school. We'll know what I'm talking about when I say the the trick bag, you know. They would always say the trick bag.

A trick bag. The most I had the white man in the trick bag. So some brothers would admit that Cornelius Tahar was one who would admit that Cornelius general genuinely received salvation, right? I remember him saying in one if you said because when we came with the gospel Cornelius was the only one about down.

Right brothers frequently stick. Cornelius was gonna receive some type of mercy in the kingdom. Okay. Alms deeds toward the people of Israel, etc. And so I like that. But no no one ever came up with a satisfactory explanation of well if Cornelius could be saved, you know.

Why not doesn't any other Gentile need to just right do the same thing. Because God fearing man and quick question God.

Do you know the answer is did anybody ever say? Well dude is probably Italian. So he was still an Israelite. Did anyone ever go that route? You don't sense. That's how I was the first one to say that.

Oh, so so the explanation the modern explanation is Via his so I guess they'd probably be assuming he's some kind of southern Italian such as Sicilian or Napolitano and then probably thinking through that he's able to have Israelite lineage and so he legitimately is that.

So that's the current explanation.

That's. Pretty much as far as it goes. Okay, the text that says that all the Conversation that happens between Peter and Cornelius. This is.

Everybody acts chapter 10 primarily, but then there's a follow-up in acts 15. Go ahead.

Precisely the the follow-up in acts 15 and emphasize it even more right? Yeah. Just read it. Oh.

Yeah. Okay, so Tahar comes out with this to kind of get around a problem and um, what happens. What's the reaction?

Okay, he already had some rivalries going on before that. Yeah, there was there was two things that Tahar was teaching.

He started saying that Cornelius was indeed in Israelite. And here's the next one. Everybody get ready for this next one.

That uh in the kingdom or when Israel Receives their power. It's all right to rape women. All right, we'll be raping women ravage the women and all that sort of thing.

You know put a pause on that for a second. So that's why sometimes people use this they call it the rape doctrine now GMS wants to make sure you know. They're not talking about doing it now. They are talking about the kingdom just so everybody knows, right?

Well, we know that we want to call it like it is. However, I'll tell you ma 'am The Southside GMS crew that I ran into which homeboy has resurfaced currently on YouTube. Shout out to my fellow Southsider he he would be in Schiller Park place I used to play ball at and Why joggers are going around saying?

What OJ did to Nicole Brown Simpson is what's gonna happen to all Edomite women in the kingdom. That was righteous to do that's right. So it's kind of like a precursor to the kingdom, I guess at least that's what now.

I don't know if the heart would say that but this crew was saying that and so GMS kind of has that and so to Car came out with both things at the same time. What was the result?

Well. Okay, so at that time some funny things were beginning to happen in the school. All right, my shot was my shot was moving on in age. You had hold on. Can I ask you a question?

Yes, I heard. Now, you know, we may not have to comment that some people suspect he may have been going senile.

Yeah. Yeah, there was there was some evidence of that. Okay, it was shortly before his death.

Okay, go ahead and just just go ahead whispered that. Okay. Go ahead. I'm listening.

Sure, there was two Upcoming leaders in the House of David. Mm-hmm school which were Nathanael Agha and Rahab. Nathanael Agha now is who everybody knows as Nathaniel who spearheaded the Israel United in Christ movement.

That's the camp whenever we talk about him. We refer to them as professional polished very organized Rational in in a certain manner of speaking yet still kind of Hardcore and doctrine. I mean, I'm trying to they wear the purple and gold.

So everybody don't know, you know.

They very much have all kind of been somewhat that that is very much Nathanael and Nathanael Agha's persona, right? Okay, and He's kind of shaped, you know his group after himself, but they've modeled themselves after him, right?

So that that was always his style and his approach. Rahab was a little more of a belligerent guy. You know more like some of the guys you would see in some of those more, you know. Rough-around-the-edges camps on YouTube today, right?

So. These guys were up and coming in the ranks and they kind of became Masha's spokesperson whenever there was you know. Whenever they as much our age he would send these guys out to follow up with the schools going and you know.

Visit the different schools around and spurred them on and that sort of thing, you know. They began to develop a little bit of a different vision right in my opinion is. They wanted to take it in some new directions.

Yeah, and sort of a you know a season a power seat.

So I've heard this talked about. Is this what you can talk about. Kind of sometimes referred to as the coup. Yeah, yeah, I would say so, okay, so what happens. There's a council, right.