Jeff and Sye Walked Into A Bar: Conversation w/ "Atheist" (EXPLICIT)

The Challenge of Faith, Logic, and a Higher Power

Well, that's what man does, but that does not necessarily mean that there is a God. And that doesn't mean there's a higher power.

It means that it's irrelevant. Your questions are irrelevant.

And as yours is.

No, mine aren't. See, from my position, see, I'm not arguing from your position, see, I'm standing on a different platform. All right, so what's your platform?

So, ready?

We're standing on two platforms, right? So you're standing on a platform here that says our ancestors were fish. There is no God. There's no ultimate cosmic purpose in the universe.

I'm not saying there's no God. I'm not saying there's no cosmic. I'm not saying.

So you're an agnostic, not an atheist?

I'm more agnostic.

Okay.

I'm more agnostic.

So, I believe there's a higher power. I do not believe.

So that's different than an atheist, though.

Okay.

So you're not an atheist.

I believe.

We're getting there.

Well, so no. So I believe in a Mother Earth as a, an incredible being that is created by you.

How do you know that?

I don't know that.

Okay.

That is my own logic.

So you live by blind faith?

I live by logic.

Okay, but a moment ago.

I don't live by logic.

A moment ago.

Ready?

Real fast.

A moment ago, you said you live by, you live by logic. And now, when I asked you a question of how you know something, you said, I don't know.

It.

So you live by faith. You don't live by logic.

You live by faith.

Well, no.

Well, that's, that's a, that's a logic in my own world. If I, if I create that in this faith, then I can be, then yeah, it could be as true as.

Faith.

But in my own logic world of that.

What logic world is this? Just help me understand it. What logic world?

So I have a zero education in religion, so you can argue me up and down the world and quote scripture and quote all this other stuff. However, for me, scripture is someone's opinion on something that happens.

Why would that be? Why would that be relevant?

It would not be relevant because I could say.

From your perspective, I'm saying, why is it relevant?

From my perspective, it's not relevant, or it is relevant because in my perspective, if I don't believe in the scripture, or if I believe that maybe the scripture came from someone that was necessarily not true or someone that was believing in their time where they needed to believe something, which I believe in, in the logic, in the logic world of mankind.

So in mankind, let's say we have, let's say we go back and we say something has happened and we want to make some sort of logic out of that, but we can't. So where do we take that logic from? We take it and we put it into faith.

So I don't understand where this came from or how this happened or why this is happening in life, but you know what? I can take that logic and say, you know what? I could go push that towards faith. So that's where I have a difference.

I lost you there.

Now I'm losing you. I was trying to find that.

Yeah, I know.

I figured it out.

Science, Causality, and Living in a Godless Universe

So here's the thing. So let's go run with, so I work with cancer therapy, cancer patients and horses.

Okay.

Okay.

Cancer patients.

And horses.

And horses.

Okay. And horses. Okay.

I work with a cancer. I do other shit. I'm the pilot by trade. I'm very much like action, reaction. You go fuck shit up, shit gets fucked up. You do your right thing, things get right. I have a very hard, I don't, you can't, I can't pray myself out of the situation.

I can pray myself out of a situation for my own self. Like maybe I needed, I'm going through a hard time. I can talk to my mother and I can talk to what I think is Jesus or what I think is mother earth and try to get some sort of re re-consolidation of, of how that makes me feel.

However, I know that this action creates, there's action reaction.

I believe in action.

You don't even have that though.

I believe in action reaction.

Without, without God, you don't even have that. Without the God of the Bible, you don't have action reaction. You can't have causal relationships.

Why not?

Because you don't have a uniform universe that you know that tomorrow will be like today. You can't.

I don't know that.

You don't know that.

I don't know that.

I don't know that.

I don't know that. So ready?

So, so you live by faith completely, blind faith and the system you just try to create.

No, we all live by blind faith if you want to put it that way.

No, no, we Christians don't live by blind faith. It's a faith that is rooted in truth, objectivity, evidences. And when you, for example, this shows the futility of life apart from God. You've tried to construct a view of the world without God just now where you've given up science, you've given up logic, you've given up all reason and human meaning, and yet you're still trying to construct a system.

So this is, this is what Christians would point out to you is that you know the true God, but your problem like mine before God reconciles us to himself through what he did in Christ is sin. And so what happens is because sin corrupts us and all of us, we fall into futility.

We start constructing systems to live in God's world apart from him where we, we say this, but no, not that. And this, but no, not that.

I believe, I believe what you're saying is true. However, I believe in a different because you're using the word God.

Well there's only one God.

Well in your world there's only one God.

No, he's revealed himself. He's revealed himself.

But that's not true.

Well it is true.

In your, in your world it's true. In my world it's not.

Well he's, watch, real fast. He makes that claim and you're evidencing it right now. You're proving it. Because he says that all people know him, but, and he's made himself clear to all of us, but we suppress the truth about him.

We hide it. We hide from God. We don't want him in our knowledge. And so we switch him for other gods. We worship mother earth. We worship the God of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. We worship the God of Islam, Allah.

What we do is we fall into futility. Like for example, we give up science. We give up reason, because we don't want God.

What I can tell you is that you're brainwashed.

Well it's okay.

But that's okay. You're brainwashed.

No, no, no.

Because you know that's not true.

Real fast.

But watch what happens.

I might be the opposite.

Can I give you two things real fast?

One. One.

You didn't answer anything I just said. And two, being brainwashed is fine in your world view. Our ancestors were fish. It's fine for descendants of fish to be brainwashed. In my world view that's a problem.

Calling somebody brainwashed who's an image bearer of God is offensive, because they're in the image of God. And that's not what God is like. But when our ancestors were fish, it's fine to be brainwashed.

It's not an insult. In your world view, fish can call each other brainwashed all the time. So can other bags of stardust. In my world view, an image bearer of God calling another one brainwashed is an insult.

Because God's not like that.

I did not mean to insult you.

No, no, no.

I'm saying.

I did not mean to insult you.

No, no.

No, no, no.

From your perspective it wasn't an insult.

But you're telling me. You're telling me how it is. And that's where I have a problem with it.

But you're telling me how it is from your perspective.

I know.

So what you're asking me to do is.

I'm not telling you.

I'm not telling you how it is. You're telling me how it is. I'm telling you how it is for me.

Right.

And you're telling me how it is. That's where I have the problem.

Okay.

So.

I'm telling you how it is for me.

Sure. No, no.

I understand that. And listen to me.

Yeah.

When you and I are on our deathbeds.

Real fast.

Real fast.

Look at each other.

Sir, relax.

Listen.

No, listen.

It's clear to me now that you've been drinking.

When you and I are both on our deathbeds.

Listen, listen.

It's clear to me now that you've been drinking and you're getting very aggressive. So if you want to have a rational, calm, gentle discussion, I'm happy to do that. But if you want to.

I want to.

If you want to be in a drunken stupor and be aggressive, I'm not in that game.

If you want to throw that out to me, that's fine.

Okay.

Well, it's clear you're getting aggressive though. And I'm not interested in that.

I'm not interested in it.

Okay.

But what I'm interested in.

What I'm interested in is you not telling me how it is.

What if God told you how it was?

And me telling you how it is for me.

What if God told you how it was? Would you listen to him?

Yeah, that'd be great.

You know what?

So what if I told you we have his revelation? And he says that you need him and he'll give you life and forgiveness and peace if you turn from sin to trust in him. What if that was his revelation to you?

That's a message of life, not death.

What if I told you the way I go in life is from sin, being kind, and listening?

What's kindness? Our ancestors were bacteria. What's your standard of kindness? Because doesn't the thief think that he's allowed to live the way he wants?

No.

He does. That's why they have prisons. They do what they want.

I'm not justifying a thief.

I know you're not. I'm not justifying sin.

I'm not justifying a man.

I'm saying preach the gospel of agnosticism to him. Tell him why he should be good. Think about that.

I am trying to say...

I'm listening.

...that I believe in something.

I believe that's true, by the way.

I do.

And I do believe that mankind has the ability, and not only the ability but the drive, to do the right thing.

What's the right thing?

Mankind drives for what you're talking about. Everything that you... If you could put all that, and not put a name to it, the feelings, the actions, how you treat your fellow mankind.

How should we treat each other?

All that other stuff. With respect.

With courtesy.

Why?

With love. Excuse me.

Because we are driven to do that.

But what drives us? Our ancestors were bacteria.

That doesn't matter.

Well, that's...

It does matter.

It could matter, yeah.

It does matter, because if that's our origins, then that's fundamentally what we are. There's no obligation to be good to one another.

I'm saying, why can't bacteria evolve into something great?

Because there's no standard of great in a godless universe of bacteria evolving into something that wasn't planned. There's no...

Why do things have to be planned?

There's no...

Why can't you have a beautiful flower to show up?

Because there's no beauty apart from God with a standard of beauty. There's no good apart from God with a standard, absolute standard of good, outside of yourself and your preferences. When you reject God, you lose beauty, truth, goodness, logic, science, reason, ethics.

You give it all up.

But the story...

It's funny, because I have all of that.

Yes, you do.

And you know what? Yes, you do.

And I have all of that.

Yes, you do.

Because you're in the image of God.

Well, you might think that.

Well, that's what God says.

God might say that. But you know what? God also said that my mother was supposed to... That there was a reason why she died. And when I was eight years old, that did not flower.

And can I say this to you?

When I was eight years old, a pastor, my mother's best friend was a pastor. And he told me that on her deathbed. This is God's will. You know what I said to God that day? I said, fuck you.

Yeah.

Because that wasn't that. It wasn't God's will that my mother died.

Well, can I ask you this question?

Listen, listen.

I'll let you... She died of melanoma cancer.

Okay.

That killed her.

Yeah.

So in my world, that's a very...

And that was painful.

That was a... I've had a lot of death and a lot of problems in my life. But you know what? That has nothing to do with God.

Most of that's all...

It's everything to do with Him.

Most of that's all...

There's a reason why. Can I tell you why?

Well, it can be. But most of that's science-based. In my mind, that's science-based.

Can I answer why?

Go ahead.

First, it hurt when your mother died. It hurt when all these friends have died that you've loved. But it only gets to hurt and be meaningful if God is who He says He is. Because if the world is as you say it is, then what happened to your mother just happened.

And you know that's not true.

No, that's not true.

And you know that's not true.

Do not tell me that...

No, you're not hearing me.

You're not hearing me.

You're telling me that I hurt and that I grieve because there is a God.

And that is not true.

And that's true.

Because your mom has value. Your mom had dignity. Your mom had worth. But in the worldview that you're now postulating, that our ancestors were fish, none of that's meaningful.

I know, but that's where we come from.

That'll have a real good conversation, I think.

It'll have a good conversation, yeah. Can I buy you a drink? Or buy you a glass of water?

No, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. I was actually getting ready to head back out to my room.

Should I get you anything else before you leave?

I'll take a Bud Light.

Okay, thank you.

Alright. So...

I really appreciate your conversation.

Yeah.

But the only problem I have is like, I don't want someone to tell me that the way I feel or the way things are is because there is one Christian God.

Okay?

Well, there is only one God. And whether you and I accept that truth or not, our feelings don't affect truth. And the thing I want to point out to you is that all of the things that you're bringing up of pain, that's real, by the way, but that pain you point to makes sense in my worldview, not in yours.

Because, again, if we are in the world you say, where we've evolved out of the primordial ooze...

Stop, stop, stop that.

But it's true.

Stop that?

I know, but that was a long time ago.

And it means you're fundamentally that nature.

And just because...

What's wrong with that nature?

What's wrong with that nature? If there is no transcendent meaning with God as the reference point, then all you still have is stuff.

That's it.

It's stuff.

And what's...

How is it stuff when it's living?

It heals.

It breathes.

You're talking about a nervous system.

Exactly.

A nervous system is not a standard of morality.

Thank you.

Nervous systems aren't standards of morality. You have to have something that exists outside the nervous system. You can't say it hurts, so therefore don't do it. That's not a standard of morality. That's just what happens to stuff in this godless universe.

That, to me... Nervous systems have evolved from action-reaction. That's how I believe we have a morality.

No, but... Where can I touch this?

I believe the morality has come from action-reaction, learning, learning.

But you don't get action and reaction. You already said you don't know tomorrow will be like today.

No.

So you don't get reaction and reaction.

I do know.

I do have a basis to believe that nature is uniform because I believe in the God who actually personally governs it, stepped into it, and told us about himself. And he tells us that he ordains the universe, sovereignly governs it, and he declares the end from the beginning.

He upholds it. And so I have a basis for science. I have a basis for logic and reason. I have a basis for ethics. You want those things, and you said a moment ago, I do all these things. And the answer is yes, you do.

Because you're in the image of God. But you're in rebellion against him. And the message of the gospel is that there is life and forgiveness as a gift because of what Jesus did, not because of what you could ever do.

However, let's say you take Jesus out of this situation.

Impossible.

Completely out.

It's impossible.

Let's say you do.

You can't because he's the necessary precondition.

But let's say you do.

But you couldn't.

But let's say you did.

All of your reasoning right now presupposes him.

That's not true.

It does.

So it is true.

What happened before Jesus when all my ancestors had these same feelings?

Because they were in the image of God. He made the world.

So then why can't you take Jesus out of it?

He made the world.

I know, but why can't you take Jesus out of it?

Because Jesus is the truth and the necessary foundation for everything you're doing.

So what happened a million years before him?

He's eternally God. He's always existed as God forever. He's the reference point of all of our questions.

So listen.

So here's my thing.

Okay.

So let me take your Jesus and your God and put him as a way mankind and other things should look up to and live towards.

Right?

But let me take away that person completely. God and Jesus. Let me take him away.

You want to, yes.

No, I don't want to. Let's just say he doesn't exist. Let's say that we fabricated him.

All your reasoning.

We fabricated him.

All your reasoning.

Because us as human beings, the way we've evolved, are funneling towards this point. And that point has become some great philosopher said, Jesus Christ and God. That's where we're going. And that's the person.

And this is what he's preached and this is what he's done. By looking back at all this greatness that we've accomplished as human beings. All this love.

All this care.

You realize that's actually not what's happened.

But listen. I'm just saying.

What if?

Right?

What if?

What if in my mind, what if in my mind I believe that you and I are on the same path? You're funneled a little bit harder towards an existence of Jesus and God. My beliefs are, let's say, match with you.

But they're not.

Except.

But except.

I don't put a Jesus and a God with it. But let's say I agree on. Let's say you and I walk up on a homeless person and we want to go do something. Let's say you come to my cancer equestrian program and you want to come work with cancer patients.

With me. With horses. To show them.

You're losing me.

I've lost you.

I'm trying to follow you.

I've lost you.

Yeah.

So I work.

You're going different directions and I'm not.

I'm not going different directions.

Okay.

I mean, I don't know where you go with, with, with, with, with preaching. I don't know if it's just God and Jesus and everything else. I don't know.

Well, when you, when you, when you posit a hypothetical.

My faith is not a hypothetical. My faith.

I, I.

You said it was a hypothetical.

I work with cancer patients and I work with equestrians. I work with horses.

Yes.

And I work with programs that bring light. I reduce stress. I prolong life and I help them realize you can take control of a life that's uncontrolled through an animal and do something with it. It's something totally different.

I don't bring God into it.

It is a.

Yeah. Yeah.

It is a, it is a, it is, is my own work that I do for the community.

No, I hear you.

And so.

I know you do work for the community.

But here's, here's.

Why can't, why can't my funneling, why can't my funneling of the goodness that I do.

There's no goodness. There's no goodness.

There's no goodness in it. If I don't believe in Jesus.

You have no standard of goodness.

No.

Outside of yourself.

Okay.

You have no standard of goodness outside of yourself. All you have is a preference and you're not in charge of the thief, the liar, the rapist, the adulterer. You're not in charge of them.

Neither are you.

Well, well God is. And I'm not speaking, I'm not speaking for my own authority. I'm speaking from the authority. He is the ultimate authority.

Okay.

Or it could be action reaction.

And you're, there is no action reaction.

You gave it up already.

Because you know what, the thief, the thief that goes and fucks up, fucked up.

Let me answer.

Let me answer.

There's no fucking up in your worldview. There's just what happens.

So what?

No, there is a standard.

No, there's no such thing.

There is.

There's no standards.

There is standards.

There's no, there's, there's no.

If you go and betray me, then you, there's a standard that you betray me.

That's your own personal preference as a bag of biological stuff in a purposeless universe. And that doesn't, that doesn't control the thief, the liar, the adulterer, the murderer. All you have is you, one bag of biological stuff in a cosmically indifferent universe.

And you have no standards of morality outside of yourself. You have preferences. But you're not in charge of the thief.

Why do I have no standards? Why do I have no standards of morality?

You have no objective standard outside of yourself. All you have is preference.

Why can't I look up to people and look up to mankind?

Because, because when you tell me in a universe where you evolved from scum that I feel like we should do this, that's not in charge of anybody. It's not a standard except your preference. And that's, that's not a standard.

That's a subjective personal preference. That's not an objective standard of good at all. And so what I can say to you every time you speak, when you bring up these standards of goodness, I can say this to you.

So what?

And there's no answer from your world, do you? And that, here's my argument. That's life rejecting God. That's what you're left with. And so the message that I have for you is the same message that I needed.

It's that God became man in the person of Christ to redeem rebels like you and me, to forgive us because we deserve hell. We deserve, because we rebel against him. And he came and died a death that we deserve, lived righteously and rose from the dead.