June 15, 2023 Show with Ed Boyle & Micah Clouse on “Is There Hope for the United Church of Christ?”

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June 16, 2023

June 15, 2023 ED BOYLE, pastor of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, PA (formerly in the United Church of Christ), & MICAH CLOUSE, pastor of Salem Church of Martinsburg, PA, (currently still in the United Church of Christ) who will both address: “IS THERE HOPE FOR the UNITED CHURCH of CHRIST?: An EVANGELICAL WITNESS to one of the MOST LEFTIST PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS”

00:02: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father
00:08: James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister
00:13: George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
00:20: This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:21: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of June, 2023.
01:30: Today we have both a returning guest and a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:38: Our returning guest today is my dear friend Ed Boyle, pastor of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, formerly in the
01:48: United Church of Christ. And our first -time guest is Micah Klaus, pastor of Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, which is currently still in the
02:00: United Church of Christ. Both of these men are going to be addressing the theme, Is There Hope for the
02:06: United Church of Christ? An Evangelical Witness to One of the Most Leftist Protestant Denominations.
02:12: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Good to be on today.
02:20: Thanks for having us, Chris. Yep, many thanks, Chris. Good to see you again. Well, first of all, Pastor Ed Boyle, let our listeners know about Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania.
02:32: Trinity is just a small church in a rural community, just filled with some great people who love the Lord, a variety of different ages.
02:38: And like you mentioned at the outset, it's a church that came out of the UCC several years ago, about a year or so prior to my arrival here in 2017.
02:48: And we are strongly conservative and Reformed, preaching the gospel and striving to live it out in every facet of our lives.
02:54: Now, what's your approach to ecclesiology? Are you a
03:00: Presbyterian church or are you a Reformed Baptist church? Are you a combination of both, which occasionally does occur?
03:08: Tell us more in more detail about where you stand on doctrine and so forth. We are non -denominational.
03:16: Like I mentioned, conservative and Reformed. I am more Reformed Baptist than anything else, but we have no denominational affiliation.
03:24: We stand upon, as we've had in our recently this year ratified church constitution, upon the consensus of the historic
03:31: Reformed creeds, knowing that there are some differences, baptism in particular, in regard to Westminster for the
03:39: Presbyterians and the London Second Line of Baptist Confession for Reformed Baptists. But the consensus is the areas on which we would agree.
03:47: So if this would be normally considered a conservative doctrinal position, that is what we would hold in pretty much everything,
03:54: I think, that you could come up with. So, yeah, classical Trinitarian theology. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, visit tccnb, for newbloomfield .org,
04:11: tccnb .org. And Micah Klaus, tell our listeners about Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania.
04:21: Salem Church is in Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, which is about in the center of the state.
04:27: And it is a—currently, it's in the UCC. And we say currently because the hope is to not remain there in light of some of the things we're going to be talking about today.
04:37: But it also is a small church in a rural part of the state.
04:44: There's a bunch of cows around us and cornfields and everything like that.
04:49: But it is—it's a very warm congregation. They've always been friendly, especially as I've come in there with my wife, and now we have a son.
04:58: And they are a great group of folks who just unfortunately have been, I think, withheld from good teaching and doctrine because of the state of the
05:11: UCC. But if anyone is listening that doesn't have a church and is near us, come visit us sometime.
05:18: You will find a very loving church and hopefully, by God's grace, good fellowship and teaching.
05:25: Now, if and when Salem Church makes the complete break from the
05:33: United Church of Christ denomination, would you envision that you would maintain a congregationalist ecclesiology, which is where most of the
05:43: UCC came from? It may shock many listeners who are aware of how far left the
05:50: United Church of Christ is, that it actually came from the Puritan movement. And some of the congregations where the
06:01: United Church of Christ denomination has facilities, some of these buildings are historic landmarks of Puritanism.
06:11: But as far as the congregational aspect, is that something you intend to maintain, or where would you take the congregation in that direction?
06:21: Sure. So, for my study of the UCC, the Puritan congregationalists would be one stream of churches that along the way formed the
06:32: UCC. There's also the German Reformed string, which a lot of the
06:38: UCC churches were. And Salem, talking from my own experience, is a
06:43: German Reformed church. And so it's elder and deacon led. And as far as I can tell, the
06:51: German Reforms have a three office view, a minister, elder, and deacon. When Salem joined the
06:58: UCC, I think they sort of adopted a more congregational view of church government.
07:04: And so we have a hybrid currently, where the consistory, which is the elders and deacons meeting together, do make most all of the decisions and lead the church.
07:14: But there are some decisions that do go to the congregation, such as finding a minister, or large purchases, and things of that nature.
07:24: So currently it's a hybrid between an elder led government and a congregational government.
07:30: Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Salem Church of Martinsburg, you have to go to Facebook, because that's where their website technically is.
07:42: It's their Facebook page. And just type in Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, and that should come up.
07:53: It's conveniently missing any UCC nomenclature. That's on purpose.
08:01: And my friend Ed Boyle, who's on the program today, he has already been on the program and therefore has already provided his personal testimony of salvation, as we ask all first -time guests to provide in a summary form.
08:21: So, Micah, since you're a first -time guest, we would love for you to tell our listeners the kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances did our
08:35: Sovereign Lord raise up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you? Sure.
08:41: I'd love to share that. I grew up in a household where both my parents were believing, father and mother.
08:49: My father's side is all Roman Catholic, and my mother's side was more
08:56: Pentecostal, Assembly of God type of Christians. And so they met, and I'm the youngest in my family.
09:04: I'm of four. And it was about when I was 14, 15 years old where the teachings that I received, the upbringing
09:15: I had, the experiences that the Lord gave me, things sort of came to a point where I realized
09:22: I need to take God seriously. The Lord awakened me to studying the Scripture. And thankfully,
09:29: I had friends around. I had teachers, Sunday school teachers around me who put the
09:36: Scriptures in front of me and told me the gospel. And it was actually through listening to some sermons, actually online, that my heart was softened, and I believed the gospel when
09:48: I was about 15 years old. And very soon after that, I wanted to share the gospel.
09:54: I wanted to more or less, since I had been saved through the teaching of God's word and hearing the gospel that way,
10:02: I was immediately attracted to that, and that's what I wanted to do. And so I had opportunities in my youth group to lead devotional time, sometimes to teach, and I was very just completely new to it, learning, but very eager.
10:21: And the Lord gave me a desire to learn, to read, to grow. And what that led to was then filling a call to the pastoral ministry, and I went to what's known as Clark Summit University.
10:40: It used to be Baptist Bible College. It's near Scranton, Pennsylvania. And that's where I studied the ministry, pastoral leadership.
10:49: And then soon as I was coming to the end of my time there is whenever Salem and I got connected, and I've been serving as their pastor since then.
10:59: Now, are you theologically reformed yourself as far as soteriology? Yes. And how did you come to discover and embrace the doctrines of grace?
11:11: Well, you know, definitely it was God's providence that led me to it because really no one around me was a
11:21: Calvinist. They either had no idea what that was or they would have rejected it if they did.
11:29: So I learned it through people I didn't know in real life, so watching videos, reading things through authors like whether it be
11:40: John MacArthur, R .C. Sproul, John Piper, Lorraine Botner, Paul Washer.
11:48: That's how I became a Calvinist, and that was pretty soon after I was saved.
11:54: I never really went through a stage where I was anti -Calvin or anti -doctrines of grace.
12:02: Very shortly after I got saved, those things just sort of clicked, thankfully. And I realized,
12:08: I mean, yeah, I wouldn't have come to God unless God came to me, and he opened up my heart. Well, I'm glad you mentioned
12:15: Lorraine Botner because Lorraine Botner and Meredith Klein are my two favorite female theologians.
12:23: I'm just kidding. I can never resist to tell that joke whenever I hear Lorraine Botner's name.
12:30: That's pretty good. Folks, they were both men, just to let you know. They just had names that are commonly female.
12:40: Now, and by the way, Ed Boyle, you can feel free to chime in with your own question because I'm going to interview
12:50: Micah a little bit about how he wound up at Salem Church of Martinsburg, and the story of how he became pastor is somewhat different than yours because Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield had already left the
13:07: United Church of Christ denomination, whereas Micah had accepted a call to a church that is still in it, the
13:15: United Church of Christ. But when the Salem Church of Martinsburg extended a call to you, where were they in regard to the biblical leftist divide?
13:33: I mean, you have United Churches of Christ predominantly adopting the vast majority of every issue that you can imagine that the left champions.
13:49: They are, in vast majority, they are pro -infanticide.
13:57: They believe women should have the right to murder their unborn children. They are pro -homosexual, and they are not only advocating that we should tolerate homosexuality.
14:09: They want us to join the celebration. They want us to lift up, admire, and celebrate homosexuals, and give them free access into every realm in life and every office and position in the church.
14:31: So, I mean, I'm sure that there are some exceptions like you, and maybe you could tell us about that in a minute, but where was this congregation at when they extended the call to you?
14:45: Well, Chris, before I answer that question directly, I don't know if you gentlemen or those listening remember in April of this year,
14:57: SatanCon was held in Boston, Massachusetts. Yes. And, you know, along with what you could expect at a place called
15:05: SatanCon, you know, with people dressed up like witches and Satan and all black and doing their ritualistic type things of tearing out the pages of the
15:13: Bible, things like that you'd expect. But what also went on there is that there were certain teachers giving lectures at SatanCon for people to attend.
15:25: And you know what they gave lectures about? They gave lectures about the same things you can find on UCC .org.
15:32: They gave lectures about rejecting the faith of your past, reclaiming the trans body, self -determining, empowerment, masturbation, abortion, black, indigenous and people of color experience, racial intersectionality.
15:48: But they did this at SatanCon in the name of benevolence, empathy and inquiry.
15:53: And so the goals of Satanism in 2023 almost have no difference to the public goals of, say, the
16:02: UCC. That should really trigger, you know, us and sort of make us scratch our heads how that happened with a
16:09: Protestant denomination. But anyways, where the church Salem was itself, the
16:15: UCC as a corporation in their headquarters, it was sort of like a sleeping beast,
16:23: I think, to Salem as a local church. Because I think it was in 2005 was the last time they probably had a real battle or scuttle with the
16:34: UCC whenever the denomination wanted to totally affirm, you know, gay marriage and homosexual clergy.
16:44: And at that point in 2005, a lot of UCC churches left. Salem did not.
16:52: But it was with the understanding that they as a local church would be not affirming.
16:58: While they would welcome LGBT people to attend, they're not going to hold gay marriages and they're not going to accept a gay minister.
17:10: So they stayed within the denomination. And I think ever since then, there's been a strange relationship, a distant relationship, with the denomination as a head because of their stands.
17:26: And where they were at whenever I got there is they had been without a pastor for about a year, year and a half, two years.
17:34: And the UCC more or less said, well, no one wants to go out to your church. We don't have any ministers for you.
17:40: You know, your church is small. It's in the middle of nowhere. You're on your own. And so that's how they got me, someone who is not ordained within the
17:49: UCC and doesn't want to be ordained within the UCC. And so I came into the church, and they weren't really at all talking about leaving the
18:01: UCC, but it was more of an in -the -background, silent thing where, yeah, they're part of it, but there's issues.
18:10: You know, you were talking about how you could barely distinguish between the Church of Satan's core principles and mission from the
18:19: United Church of Christ. I can remember when, in the early 2000s,
18:26: I invited Barry Lynn to debate Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on the theme,
18:34: Is Homosexuality Compatible with Biblical Christianity? And Mr.
18:39: Lynn accepted the invitation. He was affirming in that debate that homosexuality is compatible with biblical
18:51: Christianity. And Dr. James R. White was obviously opposing that notion. And I was, in preparation of the debate, sending out massive emails, bulk emails, to invite people to attend this.
19:15: And since I knew that Barry Lynn was an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ, I focused on United Church of Christ websites, because I was much more concerned with homosexuals and those who affirm them being present at this debate, so that they can possibly hear for the very first time in their lives someone as articulate and brilliant as Dr.
19:42: James R. White reveal from the Scriptures how this behavior is damning
19:49: So I spent a lot of time, and I was amazed, I was shocked, even though I knew that the
19:57: United Church of Christ is really neck and neck as far as its apostasy and leftism with the
20:05: Unitarian Universalist denomination, I was shocked that the rabbit trails or the threads that going to a
20:16: United Church of Christ website would bring me, when you click on one thing and you're led to another thing, that kind of a chain reaction,
20:26: I eventually wound up on homosexual porn sites. And I was infuriated, because now this is on my history and my computer, so I immediately just stopped dabbling with their web, but it was amazing to me, even though I knew how leftist the denomination was,
20:51: I never thought that would happen. Chris, that's exactly, I think, the reaction of most average
20:58: UCC members. I think they are amazed to actually dive into the minutes, the website, and the agenda of the
21:09: UCC. I mean, you're talking about things you can find on their website, you can buy abortion pills from a link on their website.
21:17: Wow. So, yeah, there's great opportunity here, because we can actually make this stuff public.
21:27: If I could chime in here, Chris. Yes, definitely. And Micah, you're exactly right, that's well said.
21:35: Speaking of one of the folks here, and I think I alluded to this when I was on the show many months ago, Chris, or last year maybe, one of our folks who had weathered the storm here and joined this church when it was
21:46: UCC a number of years earlier, she's very conservative, but at that time their statement of faith was not objectionable.
21:53: It didn't say anything that was unbiblical at the church, and it's a small rural community. And I think, as Micah stated, with Salem, many of the folks here at Trinity were basically completely unaware of what was going on with the
22:06: UCC headquarters and the actual denominational stances, because there was a great deal of local church autonomy, and that's kind of a hearkening back to one of their root strands of congregationalism.
22:18: But she said it had started here really when the church had received, a few years ago, what she called blasphemous
22:26: Christmas cards from UCC in the mail addressed to the church. And so upon opening the little box and looking at them, she said it's blasphemous because of the portrayal of Christ, the use of various pop songs and lyrics as Christian, it was celebrating queerness, and also the implication, the inference that God might be a woman.
22:47: These are Christmas cards. She was understandably shocked and horrified, brings it up to the consistory, the governing body at the time, and this led to a church meeting.
22:57: And then another church meeting, where two UCC reps from the denomination came down, one a Lady Pastrix and then a guy.
23:05: And as the questions proceeded from the congregational meeting, he had mentioned that on the issue of homosexuality, he said the
23:12: New Testament writing was just simply Paul's opinion. He just went on with other examples of what is the root problem, a rejection of the authority of scripture.
23:21: All these other things are simply manifestations of that. They're culturally contemporary manifestations of a rejection of God's authority as he has revealed it through his word.
23:32: And that led to eventually the impetus to leave the UCC. The sister church, which they were yoked down in Duncan and half an hour or so away, or maybe less, had decided earlier than Trinity just to leave the
23:46: UCC, and it eventually led to Trinity. But of course there was some resistance and some folks stayed here. As I think
23:53: I mentioned before, the church may have left the UCC, but the UCC didn't leave all of the members, even when they changed the name from Trinity UCC to Trinity Christian Church.
24:03: And so some of them remained when I got here. And hence a lot of the drama and angst that transpired since that we talked about last time.
24:12: Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If anybody has a question of your own for my guests today, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
24:24: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.
24:32: If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
24:39: Let's say you are also in the United Church of Christ and you have a desire to leave that denomination or perhaps even the specific congregation where you are a member.
24:53: Or perhaps you are, just like Micah, you're a pastor in the
24:58: United Church of Christ and you have either always been a convicted biblical
25:04: Christian or you have developed that theology and worldview. You have perhaps become a born -again believer while in the ministry already in the
25:14: United Church of Christ. And you would like to ask something in relation to counsel from these men.
25:23: We could understand why certain things like those examples would compel you to remain anonymous.
25:30: But if you are just asking a general question, please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.
25:36: Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Chris, how long is this break?
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33:10: We are now back with my guests today, Ed Boyle, pastor of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, formerly in the
33:18: United Church of Christ denomination, and Michael Klaus, pastor of Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, currently still in the
33:25: United Church of Christ but with the intention of having an exodus from there.
33:31: We are discussing, is there hope for the United Church of Christ, an evangelical witness to one of the most leftist
33:38: Protestant denominations. And before I go to any listener questions, Micah, I wanted to ask you, especially since this was the experience of Ed Boyle that he shared with us the last time he was on the program, there is a phenomenon amongst liberal
33:57: Protestant denominations where you have probably especially those who are from an older age group that are shocked and horrified when they learn just how sexually perverse the denominations have become and they may be also pro -life.
34:23: They hear the aggressive and enthusiastic defense of infanticide that is the official position of these denominations and they want to get out of there, but these people still have hearts of stone.
34:41: They're just morally conservative. They're just socially conservative. They are hearkening back to the days of their own upbringing and the traditional values that were instilled with them that has nothing to do with a product of the new birth.
34:57: Is that something that you have seen and experienced? And if so, that's just an extra hurdle for you, is it not, when you seek to shepherd a group of people like that?
35:09: It definitely is something that I've experienced. It is a hurdle, and for those that are in that mindset, they need to know that a christless conservatism won't help you.
35:22: It will not save you. Christless conservatism is what got us here in 2023 because if your standard is what you think is gross or what you think is normal, if that's your only standard, it's only a matter of time before that wears down and that just gets rejected, especially by your children and your grandchildren because they're like, well, why did they think like that?
35:49: Was it just their own opinion, their own preference? Well, this is my opinion. This is my preference. So someone who's socially conservative but they aren't basing these convictions on scripture is not going to make it.
36:04: They're just not going to make it, and the folks with the UCC who are presenting themselves as compassionate, sympathetic, and following God's Holy Spirit, they will easily manipulate these people who have no other standard than their own predilections.
36:24: Now, Ed Boyle, do you have any idea from your experience, why is it that there exists a whole group of people across the
36:35: United States and perhaps other parts of the world who would identify themselves as conservative, would perhaps vote in every election for a conservative candidate, they bear the marks of your average conservative voter and morally conservative citizen, and yet they want to continue going to that liberal denomination that is perhaps even completely apostatized down the street just because that's where they were raised or something like that.
37:16: To give you an example, Tucker Carlson, who is one of the most conservative
37:22: TV broadcasters now on Twitter after being fired from Fox News, Tucker Carlson is still a member of the
37:36: Episcopal Church USA, which is in some cases just as left -leaning and apostate as the
37:44: United Church of Christ. And I have heard him on occasion, even though most of the time when he mentions his own faith, he mocks that denomination.
37:55: But he has said on at least one occasion, I can recall, I just love the liturgy.
38:01: But other than that, what are the answers that you can possibly conjure up as to why this is a phenomenon that still exists?
38:12: I think Micah mentioned it just a minute ago when he mentioned a Christless conservatism.
38:19: Because a Christless conservatism for your average American churchgoer leads or has already led to a
38:25: Christless Christianity. And so we have churches filled with that. I know the term cultural
38:31: Christianity gets bandied about a good bit. You have people who grew up with a certain level of Judeo -Christian morality because that was the cultural capital that had been carried forward from our forebears.
38:43: And so they lived with that. But there was very little, if any, doctrine being preached in their churches.
38:50: And so what church became for so many denominations that became liberal, they became liberal naturally because of the dearth of doctrine from their pulpits and within the pews.
39:03: And so when you simply have a feel -good sort of religion, it has the trappings of Christianity.
39:09: And what people, I can't think of who it was, several years ago had written about the idea that the more liberal a church becomes, the more it holds on to the trappings of religiosity, like pictures, like cross -symbol crucifixes, like this, like that.
39:26: They hold on firmly to that, but there's really no root beneath it. They're holding on to the trappings of religion, but the spirit has long since departed.
39:35: And I think what that traces back to, Chris, in response to your question directly, is the lack of doctrinal teaching and preaching and real meaty theological discipleship, the death of theology, basically, on a widespread level.
39:49: And so we will vote conservative. It was like when I came here, for example, people had described themselves as conservative when
39:55: I was candidating here, I think because they voted for Trump. Well, I did too, but that does not equate to theological conservatism.
40:05: And I don't think a lot of people really understand the difference between typically grounded doctrine and just conservative voting.
40:13: Donald Trump, on top of that, is completely on board with homosexual rights activists.
40:22: I mean, he would have a great opposition to imposed leftism on families and so on.
40:34: He does not want sexual reassignment being done upon children, especially without the consent of their parents and that kind of thing.
40:49: He does have a certain line that he draws. But he has had, when he was president, he had openly homosexual people involved in his campaign.
41:03: Chris, absolutely, and I don't argue that point at all. I would absolutely hold, if I would hold a Republican president for whom
41:09: I voted accountable for certain things that are unscriptural or unconstitutional from a citizen's perspective, if I would hold a
41:18: Democrat to that, then I would certainly hold a Republican to that. Or otherwise, I'm just a party hack. And so, absolutely right.
41:24: Trump took pride in being the most pro -gay Republican president we've ever had, which is certainly nothing to be proud of, no pun intended.
41:32: But there we have that. And so, without going into all the nuances of the lesser of two evils argument,
41:39: I think what we've had in America is just the church is reflecting the culture rather than seeking to be an agent of gospel transformation of the culture.
41:47: We just caved. And we, speaking collectively of American pseudo -Christianity, and that's why you see the landscape before us as it is.
41:56: Churches that are churches in name only, where the gospel is not proclaimed, that are basically useless except for the feel -good religious block check that people get when they attend there from time to time.
42:11: Okay. We have an anonymous listener who says, I am remaining anonymous because I have friends who view themselves as modern -day
42:23: Martin Luthers who are remaining in false churches because they have a belief and a confidence that they will do great good there and help to sway people's opinions and change the direction of many.
42:39: But I keep going back to one of the favorite verses of my fundamentalist friends, which
42:45: I wholeheartedly agree with, and that is 2 Corinthians 6, verses 14 through 17.
42:53: Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness?
42:59: Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
43:07: What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living
43:13: God. As God has said, I will dwell with them and walk among them, and I will be their
43:18: God and they will be my people. Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the
43:24: Lord. Touch no unclean thing and I will receive you. Obviously, that is the mission that Pastor Micah Klaus has for Salem Church in Morgantown, Pennsylvania.
43:41: But why don't each of you, and we'll start with Micah this time, since Ed last spoke, to address the anonymous listener's question about the modern -day
43:55: Martin Luther phenomenon. I've even encountered that with people that I know. And also, how you justify accepting a call into a church like Salem Church that is still in the
44:12: United Church of Christ, even though you envisioned the eventual separation from there. So, Micah, we'll start with you.
44:19: Sure. Thank you. To address the former topic, to use this quote, hard preaching makes soft hearts, but soft preaching makes hard hearts.
44:33: And I think what a lot of UCC churches have had for half a century is soft preaching, even to social conservatives, hardens their heart to really what the
44:45: Scripture is saying. And so you have a lot of congregations in rural areas who do not stand for the
44:52: UCC, but they might be apathetic or at a standstill as to what to do about it, because they haven't seen what
45:01: Scripture presents as a vigorous, effective, powerful Christian witness and life.
45:08: And the listener who sent in that question, really appreciate it. It's a great question. Appreciate him or her listening today.
45:16: They bring up a good point. There was a saying when I was in Bible college about, you know, whenever you accept a church, it's easier to give birth than to raise the dead.
45:27: And they were talking about it might just be easier to start a church than to go into a dead church and try to revive it.
45:33: And there's a lot of truth to that statement. And I entered into a
45:38: Salem church, very inexperienced, with a lot of energy, with a lot of optimism.
45:45: And some could probably justifiably say it was foolish of me because of the great difference that is between me and the
45:54: UCC at large. And that passage that Paul wrote to the churches in Corinth, I think at a certain point would be applied by not even entering into fellowship with an apostate church.
46:09: I think that there's a time to apply that passage in that way.
46:15: And I would take the discernment of someone in the situation itself. How I could justify or explain what
46:22: I'm doing is likening it to the experience of the Lord and his servant
46:28: Moses with the people of Israel for 40 years in the wilderness. No doubt a lot of them were unbelievers, unregenerate, hard -hearted complainers.
46:41: But Moses didn't leave them. The Lord judged them. The Lord disciplined them. But he brought their children into the promised land.
46:50: He didn't start over with a whole new people, but he brought them through. And though a whole generation died there in the wilderness, the
47:00: Lord fed them. The Lord watched over them. The Lord dwelt among them.
47:06: And the Lord protected them. And so that's how I see my ministry. Now, I could easily just as much see someone else going into a church where, let's say it's a true blue UCC church, and every single person there hates biblical, historic, confessional,
47:26: Reformed Christianity. And you try to go in there and fellowship, worship, and break bread together.
47:33: That might be the time to apply that passage and say, I need to depart from here. This is utter darkness.
47:40: For me, thanks, God, that's not the situation. There's a lot of hope. There's a lot of light and opportunity for the future where I can see the
47:49: Lord using me. By the way, I think I accidentally identified your location of Salem Church as Morgantown.
47:59: It's Martinsburg. The reason I have Morgantown on my brain is that is where James White will be preaching on the
48:06: Lord's Day at Independence Reformed Bible Church in Morgantown, Pennsylvania.
48:12: That's why that city is on my mind. Sorry about that. Would you do it again?
48:20: Knowing what you now know and with more of a matured and seasoned track record behind you than when you initially accepted the call, would you accept the call from a
48:35: United Church of Christ congregation as long as it was conservative in its main emphasis?
48:42: I think I would definitely do it again, not as my first choice, not as something that I seek out to do, and perhaps that's a sign that it's something
48:52: I should do because it's not easy. It's not preferable. There are so many churches where I would fit in better and we'd be on the same page more automatically.
49:06: But if I'm serious about these souls and if I think about, well, who might come into this church if I wasn't here?
49:16: Not that the Lord needs me, but just I'm one of his servants and he's put me here.
49:22: I'm glad that I'm here. And if another opportunity opened up,
49:28: I would not be opposed to it. And, Ed Boyle, same question about the
49:35: Martin Luther phenomenon, the 21st century Martin Luther phenomenon where people think,
49:43: I will make a difference. I will bring this church back to biblical purity no matter how apostate they may have become.
49:53: What do you make of that mindset? Well, I think to make the Martin Luther analogy more appropriate, he'd have to be a good brewer as well.
50:04: I think it's a legitimate question, and a lot of people struggle with that, and there's no pat answer to it.
50:10: But I think sometimes with the split from the PCUS to the PCA in the early 1970s and the run -up to that, and R .C.
50:19: Sproul and D. James Kennedy and others joining the fledgling PCA while other godly men like John Gerstner, Sproul's mentor, stayed within the
50:27: PCUS and decided he wanted to fight the good fight from within. He did eventually leave, though.
50:33: Which is he could. He did eventually leave, though. But he did, exactly. He did reach a point.
50:39: I was about to mention it. He reached a point where he decided, you know, I can no longer honor the Lord and be a part of this.
50:46: And it goes back to I think what Mike had mentioned about if it was a church to where they were dyed in the wool,
50:51: UCC, theologically and not simply by way of affinity and history, then that's a different matter than those.
50:59: Like when I came here, there's a difference between wolves in the fold and sheep who need to be guided, who simply don't know any better, and they need patience and they continue teaching, preaching, and living out of the
51:13: Lord's word. They need pastoral care with no compromise. And so, like I said, it's not a pat answer to that.
51:19: Everyone must be, I think, needs to be convinced that the Lord is leading him in a certain direction, either to remain or not.
51:26: But I think the UCC is at a point and has been a point for some years now to where, for the most part, the
51:32: UCC denomination is apostate and there's no going back. And there's other denominations that have a similar thing.
51:40: And yet within the UCC, just like within the United Methodist Church, etc., there are faithful people who are still trying to fight the fight.
51:50: So everyone needs to be convinced that the Lord is leading him in an appropriate way. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now.
51:57: Please be patient with us, folks. This break will be approximately 10 minutes long. We need to have a little longer break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
52:08: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida.
52:19: And they do that with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.
52:29: Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information that you can possibly write down for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers.
52:43: We hope that often means you buy their products, support their parachurch organizations, attend their special events, and visit their churches.
52:51: But when you cannot do any of that, there's one thing that every single Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener can do if you really love the show and are grateful that there are people and organizations out there who share their wealth with us so that we can remain on the air.
53:05: If you're really grateful for that, then thank them. That's all you've got to do is contact them and say thank you so much for sponsoring
53:11: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And also send in your questions to our guests today, Ed Boyle and Michael Klaus, to chrisorenson at gmail .com,
53:20: chrisorenson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
53:26: Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
53:46: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
53:54: G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
54:07: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
54:20: And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.
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54:42: Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the
54:47: G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the
54:52: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.
54:58: Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3 -I -S -I -R for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.
55:26: I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
55:36: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the
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55:50: Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes
55:59: Biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr.
56:04: Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a
56:10: Biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation. For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com,
56:21: westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
56:30: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the
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57:04: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is
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01:07:26: Before I return to my two guests today, Ed Boyle and Micah Klaus, as we continue our theme,
01:07:33: Is There Hope for the United Church of Christ? an evangelical witness to one of the most leftist Protestant denominations.
01:07:40: I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. First of all, if you love this show, folks, and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves,
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01:09:17: Never do that. Also, if you are really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a financial gift.
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01:10:00: Also, please mark your calendars for September 15th, 16th, and 17th because Dr.
01:10:07: James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is coming to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and I am in the process of arranging a
01:10:15: Bible conference, possibly a debate, and also a morning worship service for the
01:10:24: Independence Reformed Bible Church in Morgantown, Pennsylvania. The conference and possible debate are being hosted by Mid -Atlantic
01:10:35: Reformation Society. We do not have a venue yet. We are working on several venue options in Lancaster that will be large enough to host such an event.
01:10:47: But please keep abreast of the updates, and you can go to futureofchristendom .org
01:10:58: for more details, futureofchristendom .org. You can also go to midatlanticreformation .org,
01:11:06: midatlanticreformation .org, and there will be updates as soon as we have them in regard to the exact locations and times of these events.
01:11:17: Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, or Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, no matter where on the planet
01:11:32: Earth you live, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I have helped many people in the
01:11:39: Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.
01:11:46: So if that's you, you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful home, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:11:53: and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can ask your own question of Ed Boyle and Micah Klaus, Is there hope for the
01:12:02: United Church of Christ? That is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:12:10: We have a listener, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.
01:12:17: He says, I have heard of a solid denomination and know of at least one local church here in the
01:12:25: New York area that is a member of that denomination called the Four Cs, which stands for the
01:12:31: Conservative Congregational Christian Conference. This denomination has become a biblical haven for defectants of the
01:12:41: United Church of Christ who have left there because of apostasy. Have either of you heard of the
01:12:46: Four Cs, and do either of you have any intention to join the Four Cs? From what I understand, their primary confession of faith is the
01:12:54: Savoy Declaration. Let's start with Micah this time.
01:13:02: Greetings to the listener there on Long Island. That's where my wife is from, so good to hear from you. Where is she from on Long Island?
01:13:09: She is from Rocky Point, Long Island. Yeah, I've been to Rocky Point. Probably not far from him.
01:13:15: I do know the Four Cs. I've met with two Four Cs ministers that aren't far from me and have gotten their counsel and wisdom relating to my situation with the
01:13:28: UCC. I don't know if I would join the Four Cs, just in the sense of once we,
01:13:37: Lord willing, leave the UCC, we need to spend some time figuring out who we are as a church, what a church is, what our mission is, what our message is, before we would affiliate with any identity.
01:13:50: But the Four Cs is a faithful denomination with a lot of good brothers and sisters in it.
01:13:57: So that's what I would say. And Ed Boyle, any comments? Yeah, I'm aware of the
01:14:05: Four Cs. Initially, the church here had inquired from the
01:14:11: Evangelical Congregation of Reformed, or Evangelical Association, rather, of Reformed and Congregational Christian Churches, or just simply the
01:14:18: EA, Evangelical Association. But we have no appetite right now to be denominationally affiliated.
01:14:26: The thing with the EA is they also had a lot of folks who had come out of the UCC, a lot of different congregations, but they ordain, or they don't take a doctrinal stance on the ordination of women.
01:14:39: And when I spoke to their national minister on several occasions, on some lengthy conversations we had once together in St.
01:14:44: Louis, also in seminary, I mentioned that to him. That's a major concern, because that tends, it doesn't always, but it tends to go down the road towards sexual deviance and other things, because of the rejection of biblical authority.
01:14:58: So they allow that, and they've had Lady Pastrix at their national conferences, etc. So there's no appetite here, either from me,
01:15:05: I think, or from the congregation, to affiliate either denominationally or at the moment with any other association at this time.
01:15:12: Now, was a part of that answer your knowledge that the Four Cs actually is egalitarian?
01:15:19: Do they ordain women as well in the Four Cs? I don't know that about the Four Cs.
01:15:24: I was referring specifically to the Evangelical Association, not the Four Cs. Micah, I don't know where you stand on that, but it seems to be fairly prevalent when you find conservative or comparatively conservative congregations and pastors in mainline denominations that have, for the most part, become left -wing and even apostate.
01:15:52: Those remnant churches and pastors within those groups that are identifying themselves as conservative and Bible -believing, in my experience, most of them still ordain women, however.
01:16:05: I was just wondering where you are on that. What Ed pointed out is the same reason
01:16:11: I don't personally want to join the Four Cs or would
01:16:17: I attend a Four C church unless I had to because they seem to be soft on that area of female ordination.
01:16:26: What we know about denominations that allow for that is that, number one, they shrink, and then, number two, down the road, they give way to, like you said, the sexual agenda of the left because they've already loosened a screw on this one area, and that train don't stop.
01:16:44: It just keeps going. Now, if you were to survey the
01:16:52: Four Cs, I think most of the ministers would be men, so you still have a masculine presence in the pastorate, but I don't think they stop or reject female ordination.
01:17:04: That would be my problem. It has been said, and I think fairly accurately, that not all churches that ordain women will ordain homosexuals, but every church that has ordained homosexuals first ordained women.
01:17:27: Yep, exactly. One thing that we should also make clear, just to be fair, I am personally aware of churches and pastors in denominations that have a long history of the ordination of women coming out of the
01:17:45: Wesleyan holiness movement and their ordination of women, although I strongly disagree with it.
01:17:52: I am not an egalitarian. I am a patriarchal, leaning complementarian, but we have to make sure that we are not slandering or broad -brushing because there are conservative congregations and denominations that have women in the ministry that have not done that as a result of a collapse to the left and a capitulation to the left because some of them have ordained women before the rise of feminism.
01:18:29: I just wanted to say that because I don't want anybody listening to get upset to feel like they are being broad -brushed.
01:18:37: To give you an example, the Church of God General Assembly, also known as the Church of God Finley, Ohio, which has many churches in Pennsylvania, they are very conservative as far as I can see on every issue except they do believe in the ordination of women.
01:18:55: Well, since you have to leave in about 10 minutes, Micah, I wanted to ask you and then have
01:19:03: Ed follow up with the primary question of our thesis today. Is there hope for the
01:19:10: United Church of Christ if by some miracle you had a revival occur where most if not all of the pastors in this denomination were to repent and to believe upon Christ in truth and faithfulness and according to His Word and according to His Spirit.
01:19:34: Obviously, that would be indeed a modern -day miracle. But even if that were to happen, should they abandon the name
01:19:41: United Church of Christ because of the negative baggage? Should they retain the name United Church of Christ as a living testimony to their denominational repentance?
01:19:51: So where are you on that? Is there hope for the United Church of Christ? Great question. As I was thinking about the thesis of this radio show today,
01:20:00: I thought of Proverbs 29, verse 1, where the Bible says, He who is often reproved yet stiffens his neck will suddenly be broken beyond healing.
01:20:13: So I think that's apropos to the UCC because they've definitely been reproved by ministers within and ministers without, and yet they seem to very forthrightly stiffen their neck.
01:20:26: They don't want to talk. They don't want to debate. They don't want to change. And so churches that do have left, and they have shrunk 43 % in the past 20 years in terms of their membership.
01:20:38: Now, is that largely because if you're that left -wing as a church, why even bother going to church?
01:20:44: What do you need churches for? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, what the UCC offers you can get without leaving your house on MSNBC or you can get at Walmart.
01:20:55: Why commit yourself to a church and give a tithe for something that is just like the world, that tastes just like our culture?
01:21:06: It drives people away, and they don't have children. They kill their children, or they can't reproduce at all because they're sodomites.
01:21:16: So, yeah, they lost their membership. Or they're just elderly and they don't reproduce anymore. Sure. And like any denomination, people pass away, so you can't fault them for that.
01:21:25: But I think what we're seeing is they are reaping what they sowed, and God is judging them because they say, well, they're pro -death, they're pro -gay.
01:21:34: Now they don't have any children. Now they don't have any life. So do
01:21:39: I think there's hope for the UCC? I mean, God is full of wise and great surprises. I mean, you think about Jesus dying and resurrecting.
01:21:46: You think about Joseph going into Egypt, and then 19 years later, he's second in command and he saves all of his brothers.
01:21:55: God could do that. And that would be wonderful. And that would be such a testimony, especially to the foundations of the
01:22:03: UCC, which is people like the Puritans, people like the German Reformed, people who really loved the
01:22:09: Lord. And that would be terrific. However, if I were to give you my honest analysis,
01:22:18: I don't think there is a faithful, biblical future for the
01:22:24: UCC. I think that it has so made itself the religious arm of the
01:22:30: Democratic Party. It has made itself the church of CNN that it would be a total miracle, total revival and reformation for its 700 ,000 members to recant of all of that and go from death to life, to go from darkness to light.
01:22:51: For those listening, here's some things to do.
01:22:57: In real life right now, whether you're in the UCC or you're not, know this, the gospel is really glorious and it's so much better than what the
01:23:08: UCC tells you. And the Bible is so much better than what you've heard. And so don't run away from it, but put your nose in the
01:23:17: Bible, listen to gospel preaching, and you will see Christianity is awesome.
01:23:23: God is awesome. The scriptures are the greatest gift God has given us outside of his son,
01:23:29: Jesus Christ. And you need to obey God, fear God, serve God all the days of your life and you'll never, ever regret it.
01:23:38: When you drive past a UCC church, pray for it. Even if there's only eight people there and a cat, they're real people.
01:23:47: They're real people. They have souls and a lot of them are confused and they haven't heard what you have heard as a
01:23:53: Christian. So pray for that church. Pray for it. Or pray that a body of true believers comes to occupy those buildings because the
01:24:04: United Church of Christ, as far as I have seen, they have the most gorgeous, breathtaking buildings anywhere in the
01:24:10: United States. They sure do. They sure do. And yes, so pray for God's will to be done, whether that's a whole new body of people or a revival within that local church.
01:24:21: And if you're in the UCC, whether you're a layperson or a minister, remember you were not baptized into the
01:24:27: UCC. You were baptized into Jesus Christ. And so leaving the UCC is not the end of your faith.
01:24:34: It's not the end of your relationship with God. It's not the end of even your fellowship with believers. You were baptized in the name of the
01:24:41: Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The UCC started in 1957. That's an infant compared to the history of the church and, of course,
01:24:49: God who's everlasting. If you're part of the UCC or you have a relationship with someone in there, be like Elijah and kind of be a godly troublemaker.
01:24:58: He was called the Troubler of Israel. And don't cause ungodly trouble. Don't stir strife up.
01:25:04: But ask questions. Show people the scriptures, where the
01:25:10: UCC has defected rebelliously from God's word, and have conversations.
01:25:16: Bring these people out to lunch. Pay for their lunch and make them think about what you know is the truth and deal with it in terms of thinking in 200 -year increments.
01:25:30: If you think about the Reformed Church in the United States, as they came to the United States, it was 200, 300 years ago, and here we are.
01:25:38: And so think in those increments of 200 years. What can you do in your UCC church today that might make a difference in 200 years?
01:25:46: Because that's typically how God works, is that he's working through generations of people and of churches.
01:25:54: If it's a dead road, a dead end at the UCC you're in, the UCC is set up for voluntary participation and voluntary withdrawal.
01:26:05: The UCC, I think, is probably one of the easiest denominations to leave because it's all voluntary, and typically the
01:26:14: UCC does not own your land or your church or your 501c3 status.
01:26:19: So you can leave, hopefully, without too much pain. And then also, if anyone that is listening would like the information that I've collated about the
01:26:33: UCC, I'd be more than willing to share it with you, whether to email it to you or mail it to you.
01:26:39: I have about 15 or 20 pages, all about the UCC, what is going on within the ranks of those who are leading this organization, and it would be a valuable thing to show to your church or to a loved one who goes to a
01:26:52: UCC church who is totally unaware of this. I can send it all to you, and I would love to do that. Just reach out, and you can have more information there.
01:27:02: Before you go, while you are still a member, as far as the congregation is concerned, of the
01:27:08: United Church of Christ denomination, are you compelled to support satanic activities and institutions while you are still there?
01:27:18: Like, to give you an example, Dr. John R. DeWitt, who 23 years ago retired from the pastoral ministry at Seventh Reformed Church in,
01:27:32: I believe it's Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was, at one time, in the
01:27:38: RCA, the Reformed Church in America, which I don't even think it's come as close to apostasy as the
01:27:44: United Church of Christ, even though it's saturated with liberalism. But he refused to support the institutions and the other things that were clearly anti -biblical, and he was excommunicated without even a hearing.
01:27:59: He was the first person in the denomination to be excommunicated without even a hearing. Wow. So, I was just wondering if that is something you are compelled to do while you're still there.
01:28:08: Sure. Chris, if that was the case, I couldn't serve at the UCC with good conscience, in good conscience.
01:28:16: If I was being compelled or forced to do something satanic, I would have had to rebel or leave long ago.
01:28:25: The UCC has a committed format of localism, and so churches are autonomous to more or less do what they choose to do.
01:28:36: So, I don't participate in really anything the UCC does or promotes. They've never told me to preach anything.
01:28:45: They've never told me not to preach anything. They've more or less distanced themselves from me since I'm not an ordained
01:28:51: UCC minister. The goal and the purpose of leaving is to finally break the connection that we have with them in name because their name is on our sign and their name is part of our history, and an outsider who may want to visit us, if they see
01:29:10: United Church of Christ, that's going to come with a lot of assumptions. And so, that's sort of the last vestige to be part of our removal.
01:29:20: Thankfully, no, I'm not compelled to do anything that relates to my practice or my ministry.
01:29:27: That would definitely be crossing a line. Well, Pastor Micah, it's been a joy to have you on the show.
01:29:32: I look forward to your return to the show. I know, as we said earlier, you have to leave early.
01:29:39: This is not an indication, folks, that we're going off the air. We have until 4 p .m.
01:29:44: Eastern Time, but Micah has to leave early. I'm so glad that by God's providence, you have been attending my
01:29:50: Iron Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastors luncheons, which is how this interview came to be.
01:29:56: Absolutely. My pleasure to be on, and God bless you men and all the listeners. If anybody wants more information about Salem Church in Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, go to Facebook and type in Salem Church Martinsburg, M -A -R -T -I -N -S -B -U -R -G.
01:30:12: Thanks a lot, brother. God bless you. When we come back, we're going to have
01:30:17: Ed Boyle of Trinity Christian Church in New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, answer the same question that is a part of the main theme of our discussion today.
01:30:28: Is there hope for the United Church of Christ? If you have a question of your own for Pastor Ed, go to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com,
01:30:36: ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. We'll be right back with Ed Boyle right after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:36:08: Going back to 2005. One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
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01:41:06: Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Iovineo, and thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.
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01:42:47: This is Pastor Bill Saso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
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01:43:03: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
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01:43:22: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:43:35: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
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01:43:52: This is Pastor Bill Saso wishing you all the richest blessings of our
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01:44:35: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
01:44:45: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
01:44:51: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:45:03: Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com As host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:45:28: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:45:38: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:45:46: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:45:52: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
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01:46:12: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
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01:46:28: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654
01:46:37: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:46:45: And please make a note, folks, that the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc -nj .org
01:46:59: gcbc -nj .org So the website that was announced in that commercial needs to be updated.
01:47:06: It is no longer active. The correct website right now is gcbc -nj .org
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01:47:55: We're now back with my guest, Ed Boyle. We were blessed with the second guest as well before the break throughout the entirety of the program until our final break.
01:48:14: Micah Klaus of Salem Church in Martinsburg. And now we have exclusively for the remainder of the program
01:48:23: Ed Boyle, Pastor of Trinity Christian Church in New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania.
01:48:29: And I'd like to ask you the same question I asked Micah. Is there hope for the United Church of Christ? Ed.
01:48:37: You know, I saw that question, Chris, when you first invited me on the program here. The immediate question, counter question that popped into my mind was, was there hope for Ed Boyle?
01:48:50: Well, sure there was. Back when I was young and stupid, the Lord never let me go. Is there hope for the United Church of Christ?
01:48:55: Sure, there's always hope because we do not yet know how the Lord will move. However, having said that, when an organization, a denomination, an individual church apostatizes to us to a level where staying within it can no longer bring honor and glory to God, then
01:49:13: I think it's time to leave it. And we spoke about that earlier, the citation you had from 2 Corinthians 6,
01:49:18: I think 1 Corinthians 5, verse 11. But now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality, which the
01:49:28: UCC champions at every level. Greed is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one.
01:49:36: What have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
01:49:41: God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. And I think then we look at Galatians 1, without just citing a number of different verses, anyone who preaches a different gospel, let him be accursed.
01:49:55: And we see that, and we see, I think, God's hand of judgment upon some of these denominations and churches and pastors who are preaching a different gospel.
01:50:03: And so is there hope? There's always hope that the Lord may yet move. He can, just like for the
01:50:08: United States, he may yet, and we pray he does, bring our nation to its knees in repentance and send a true reformation among us.
01:50:16: But whether he will or not, we don't know. But I think denominations like the UCC and some of the other, the
01:50:23: Seven Sisters of Liberalism there, I think it's time, long past time, for folks just to walk away from those and find a
01:50:30: Bible -preaching, Bible -believing church that is unashamed of the gospel and the word of God. Amen.
01:50:37: We have an anonymous listener who says, Although the congregation where I am a member does not have interfaith worship services with a liberal and apostate congregations and denominations, they do cooperate on things that involve the feeding and clothing of the poor.
01:50:59: Is this appropriate? I think...
01:51:06: I'm sorry, were you about to say something there, Chris? No, I was about to ask if you were still there or if you fainted or something.
01:51:13: No. No, another very good question. The degree of participation we can have with others who are not of the same theological mindset, in what way can we do that?
01:51:26: I think we can have no theological concord with other churches or denominations that we would consider to be blatantly unfaithful to the word of God, not simply with some different theological distinctives but are apostate.
01:51:41: We can have no theological concord, in other words, no joint services and things of that nature. But can we participate in something such as feeding the hungry?
01:51:50: Or do I mind whose denomination is next to me if we're doing an annual silent call to end abortion in our nation?
01:51:58: No, I don't care if that's a Roman Catholic standing next to me. I think it was Francis Schaeffer who mentioned the fact that we are not allies, but we can be co -belligerents fighting against the same enemy.
01:52:09: So as far as feeding the hungry, there's an organization here in Perry County that started,
01:52:15: I think, under the Methodist offices and is no longer associated with them from my understanding since this past year.
01:52:22: They have a different board of directors. But what they do is vet people on behalf of local churches.
01:52:28: And you can support them or not support them. But they vet people for financial need, hardship during the winter, things of that nature, as well as providing a food bank, clothing, etc.,
01:52:41: etc. So do I mind that? No, not at all. I think that's a worthy cause that we could support without making any theological attempt at sympathy with others with whom we would strongly disagree, according to Scripture.
01:52:56: Now, I'm wondering if you would agree with my caveat to that.
01:53:01: For instance, you are walking on a picket line in protest to Planned Parenthood along with Roman Catholics, and you're standing next to or walking next to a
01:53:20: Roman Catholic who is praying the rosary. Perhaps you're right in the midst of Roman Catholics carrying a statue of Mary.
01:53:31: Or you're part of a soup kitchen or a place that provides clothing and housing for the poor, and yet a minister right next to you ladling out soup is a transgendered minister.
01:53:51: Isn't there a place where we have to draw the line where we are giving the appearance that we are joining in partnership with evil?
01:54:01: Yes, absolutely. In cases like that, we would be giving an appearance of evil or an appearance of comfort with those things which
01:54:13: God hates, idolatry, sexual perversion, etc. Yeah, I think there is a part where we draw the line, absolutely.
01:54:21: But these are cases where there can be some differences of opinion on that, obviously, as to where that line is.
01:54:28: But those cases you stated are certainly egregious and would be, I would think, no -brainers.
01:54:34: Yeah, James White, our mutual friend of Health and Omega Ministries, he was a part of Operation Rescue at one point.
01:54:46: And he, I can't remember if he voluntarily left or was kicked out. But the reason for the separation was that he was ordered not to evangelize anyone.
01:55:00: So, I'm assuming that included both the women that were intending to have abortions and also those who were protesting abortions alongside with him.
01:55:11: And he was forbidden to, like, approach a Roman Catholic. By the way, I mean this in all love, love and compassion, but you have a false gospel if you indeed are embracing the gospel that is the official dogmatic gospel of your religion.
01:55:31: And you are right now involved in the practice of idolatry if you are praying a rosary or carrying around a statue.
01:55:39: So, he had to leave. So, sometimes it's not as easy as it may seem to be involved in those kind of co -belligerent activities.
01:55:51: Now, you're right. Dr. White was clearly correct to leave because I think back to the words of the
01:55:57: Apostle Peter, whether it's right in the sight of God to listen to you or to God, you must decide. And so, if you're being told not to evangelize, in other words, to hide the light of the gospel because you don't want to cause people discomfort, then you can no longer be a part of that,
01:56:11: I think. Well, what can you tell us as a final warning for people to stay clear of the
01:56:19: United Church of Christ? Are there any elements championed by that so -called denomination that we haven't addressed yet that might send chills up the spines of our listeners who are biblically faithful?
01:56:36: I think Micah did a really good job of encapsulating and summarizing some of the chief arguments, and I think he sounds like he's put together a pretty good document for people who are interested.
01:56:46: But, you know, I think I mentioned this the first time I was on a program with you Chris, that the
01:56:52: United Church of Christ in conjunction with others who had early joined initially what was the Federal Council of Churches, later the
01:56:58: National Council of Churches, under the auspices of the World Council of Churches, those groupings were considered once by federal law enforcement, the
01:57:06: Communist Party at prayer. And that is well, well documented. And that's why the websites of these major liberal denominations reflect the talking points of the
01:57:16: Democratic Party. They are, because they have the same root. And that's why Satan -Con could be attended by liberal, or I mean, can have some of the same talking points as liberal denominations.
01:57:29: They could feel comfort with one another because I think they have the same theological root, which is the father of lies.
01:57:35: So I would invite people to look deeply into exactly what the UCC or any denomination believes or purports to believe.
01:57:43: Check out that church's practices, and then compare that carefully and thoroughly with the sacred scriptures, because that is what right looks like, and that's where we must always go for our guidance.
01:57:54: Amen. One of the very frustrating things about all of this is you would hope that people would have enough honesty and integrity to disassociate themselves with names attached to their historic denomination that no longer apply to them.
01:58:11: Why leftists who are in favor of infanticide and same -sex marriage would want to call themselves the
01:58:19: United Church of Christ is amazing, and why the denominations founded by John Wesley and John Calvin would have gone into apostasy and remained with those names,
01:58:36: Methodist and Presbyterian, it's just astonishing, and it's aggravating, but of course this is all a part of Satan's plan to deceive people.
01:58:45: But I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest today, Ed. I look forward to you coming back. I want to remind our listeners of Pastor Ed's website for Trinity Christian Church in Bloomfield, Pennsylvania.
01:58:59: It's tccnb .org, tccnb .org. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater