June 4, 2019 Show with Angus Stewart on “Gottschalk: A Medieval Confessor of God’s Absolute Sovereign Grace in Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of June 2019.

And the first time I interviewed my guest today, Angus Stewart, I knew right away that I wanted him to return for future interviews, in fact, many future interviews, and today is the second interview, and I am thrilled to have him back on the program.

He is pastor of the Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, Northern Ireland, and we are today going to be discussing the theme,

Gottschalk, A Medieval Confessor of God's Absolute Sovereign Grace in Christ.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Angus Stewart. It's great to be back with you,

Chris, and I'm excited by the lovely topic we have to treat this evening. Before we go into the topic, for those of our listeners hearing you for the first time, why don't you tell them about Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, Northern Ireland.

The Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, or the

CPRC, or Covenant Church, because our title is quite long, is a fairly small but lively church meeting in the middle of County Antrim in Northern Ireland.

We hold to the biblical and Reformed faith as summed in the three forms of unity, one of which is the

Charons of Dort, 1618 -1619, which teaches God's mighty saving grace in Jesus Christ, which stands very much in the line of teaching of God's shock, tonight's subject.

And the website, for those of you who either live in Northern Ireland or are visiting there, or have family, friends, and loved ones there, the website is

CPRF, and that stands for fellowship .co .uk. That's CPRF .co

.uk. They developed that website before it was officially established at a church, and is still going under the name

Covenant Protestant Reformed Fellowship. That's why there's the F there, so it's CPRF, as in fellowship .co

.uk. That was very well done there, Chris, you have it straight.

Yeah, well, last time you were on the program,

I had no idea what the F stood for. The good news is, Chris, that our

URL is going to change to CPRC very soon.

My wife is our webmaster, and she is revamping the whole website.

She's having to convert, sadly, every page to the new style. She has a dear lady in the

States who's helping her called Carl, and there's something like 4 ,000 pages on the website, so manually they have to be changed over.

And when it's changed over, there'll be a new look, there'll be some significant improvements, and then we will go to the

CPRC .co .uk URL to see if introducers like yourself...

Well, you might want to at least keep this current website active that will switch over to the new one for the many people that still have the old website or the current website written down somewhere.

That's just a word of advice. No, you're quite right, and I believe, though I'm not so technically minded,

I believe that there's a way in which you can change it over, so if somebody types in CPRF .co

.uk, it will automatically transfer from them to their website. So Mary's been working on this for about two to three years.

Wow. Well, I know there's something very wonderful and unique about your website from our last conversation, in that you have many different languages available.

I can't remember if it was the entire three forms of Unity or just the canons of Dort, but you have either both or one of those options in many different languages, don't you?

Yes, we have about 130 different languages on our website, some of them have very little, maybe even just, let's say, the

Apostles' Creed, and then others have maybe 600 pieces. But with regard to the

Reformed Creeds, I think we have something like 26 different languages on there for the canons of Dort, and then the

Heidelberg Catechism, it's actually gained more currency in different parts of the world, so we maybe have about 40 translations of it, and the

Belgic Confession maybe about 30. So it's a lot of work, it's a cumulative thing. We get translators, we give them free books, we gain some good fellowship and support from them, and then they translate different pieces, articles from our website, and then they can put them on their own blogs, and then sometimes we've been able to meet up with our translators and fellowship with them from different parts of the world.

And since we are talking about the three forms of unity right now, or the canons of Dort more specifically,

I understand that a conference that you recently spoke at for the 400th anniversary of the canons of Dort, I believe the written transcripts of those messages are becoming a book from all the speakers involved?

They are indeed. Chris is referring to a conference in Michigan in late April celebrating the 400th anniversary of the

Synod of Dort and its famous, rightly famous, Canons of Dort. There were seven main speakers at that conference.

All of those, I believe, have been typed up. They're going to go into a book. Then there was one of the speakers, the professor of church history,

Professor Russell Dykstra, and he gave what he called, this is a nice term, Chris, you'll like this, historical vignettes, little 15 -minute summaries of aspects of the

Synod of Dort, like the church -state relations, what Dort had to say about Arminius' treatment of him, what

Dort had to say about other different aspects, mission work, baptism, and so forth.

So the book's going to consist of the seven main speeches and, I believe, these seven historical vignettes. Then there's going to also be a day -by -day summary of the work of the

Synod over several months, and all those things put together will make a very helpful volume.

So the Reformed Free Publishing Association, that's RFPA .org, are going to put this together in a book, and the goal is to get it out within this calendar, year 2019, so they can say that it's in the 400th year.

It wouldn't be quite the same if we slipped over to 2020. So that's the goal. The people at the

RFPA are working hard, I believe, on this, along with Prof Kamenga, who's the editor. Now, do you know the title of the book?

I know the title of the conference.

The title of the conference was Dort 400, quote, sorry, colon,

Safeguarding the Reformed Tradition. But I don't know if that's going to be the title of the book.

Maybe they'll come up with something a bit snappier or more attractive, without criticizing the title of the conference, in case there's anybody listening in who thinks that I'm taking a swipe at that.

It's up to them if they want to go for a different title. Whatever works. Yes, and we want to thank the

Free Reformed Publishing Association for being regularly very generous with us here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio in regard to donating books, not only to our show, when we are giving away books while interviewing an author of theirs on a book.

That is not the case today. But not only have they done that, but they've also been very generous with us in the past by donating 100 books, 100 copies of a title

I choose from them when I have my biannual Iron Trip and Zion Radio pastor's luncheons, and we typically have around 100 men in attendance at those, and so I pick a title that I believe would be appropriate for the men, and many of the major Christian publishers in existence, and even some of the not -so -famous but still extremely excellent publishers, donate 100 copies of a book

I select from them each, so every man can leave with a copy of that book.

But thank you again, Reformed Free Publishing Association, for your generosity.

I should add something here. I'm a little behind the door in thanking them, because our

CPRC bookstore, the church bookstore, gets a lot of books from the

RFPA, too. They give us a good trade discount. They've got superb staff, very helpful people, and they also actually got an e -mail from them today.

Professor Engelsma's latest book is to arrive with them tomorrow, his

Commentary on the Belgic Confession, Volume 2. Wow. Well, I have to have to get...

You're speaking of David Engelsma, correct? Yes. Yeah, I've got to get him back on the show to discuss that.

You do indeed. While we're talking about him, Chris, we should say a little bit about our little

DORC conference in Northern Ireland, because our church -sponsored one...

Yes. Professor Engelsma is our speaker. Over the last several weeks, he was with us for a month.

He gave four excellent speeches. The four of them are on the CPRC YouTube page.

If you go to YouTube and type in CPRC NINI for Northern Ireland, we have a special page with his four videos and question and answers.

Those were excellent. We had people who flew in from Hungary, Wales, and Germany.

Our congregation and others really enjoyed it, and Professor Engelsma's third speech on that occasion is written up in the

New British Reform Journal, which should be arriving with us at our house probably any day now.

It's a special edition on the Synod of DORC, and that section article by Professor Engelsma, he's dealing especially with the teaching of the rejection of errors in the

Synod of DORC, a very worthwhile subject. Excellent. Well, I will have to drop

Professor Engelsma an email and invite him back on very soon. Today we are speaking about Gottschalk, a medieval confessor of God's absolutely sovereign grace in Christ.

And if you could, tell us, first of all, when you speak of, or when

Christians, or actually when historians in general, speak of the medieval period, what period of time would that be in history?

And specifically, out of that time, what exact segment of years would

Gottschalk have been in existence? Well, the term medieval or Middle Ages was conceived really by Renaissance scholars around about the 13th or especially the 1400s.

And what they meant was that they were really with it. They were seeing new light and making great progression.

And the early period up to, let's say, the fall of Rome in 476, that was a good period.

And everything in that middle period was sort of dark. So what we normally mean by the

Middle Ages now is between the fall of Rome, 476 or thereabouts, the end of the classical period, up until 1517.

Some scholars differ, but that's a broad enough ballpark figure of about 1 ,000 years from the fall of Rome to Martin Luther's nailing his 95 theses to the church door of Hittenberg.

So Gottschalk is roughly around about the middle of that, early middle.

He's in the 9th century. Gottschalk's dates are about 808 to about 868.

So he's in the 9th century. It might help your listeners to grasp some of the things that happened in the 9th century.

The Vikings from Scandinavia... My ancestors, by the way, on my father's side.

Okay. I may have some Viking blood in me too, being from Scotland, because they mixed in with the population of the

British Isles a great deal. That's right. In fact, Dublin is a Scandinavian word. Dublin, Ireland.

Well, most of the cities in Ireland on the coast were

Viking -founded, and Dublin was founded... Well, it's kind of hard to put a date to it, but the date that's put to it is 841.

So Dublin, Limerick, Wexford, Waterford, Belfast, the

Vikings. And in the middle of Northern Ireland, we have a big lake. Not often we have the biggest thing of anything in the

British Isles, but the biggest lake in the British Isles, Lough Neagh, used to be a Viking lake.

The Vikings came in their long boats, circled all of Britain and Ireland and the

Isle of Man, and they would sail up the River Ban into the middle of what's now Northern Ireland.

And then they would make forays from there. So in the 9th century, the Vikings are coming north, pillaging and doing a certain amount of raping and destroying monasteries.

And they were viewed at the time as an awful scourge from God. Although I don't want to offend you and your ancestors there,

Chris. I hope you can take it. Well, I never thought of my Viking ancestors as people to look up to as noble Christian people.

So you can go right ahead. You're not snowflaking on me at the other end of the line here, Chris? Ha!

Ha! Ha! Ha! No, I'm not. OK, so then we have Alfred the

Great, a great Christian, a great figure in British history.

He had the Bible translated. He was interested in the Christian church. There's some actually good stories about Alfred.

He was fighting the Danes in the 9th century. Alfred was later in the 9th century. So we have the

Vikings coming in from the north, and then we have the Magyars under their leader

Arpad, and they're coming into Eastern Europe, and they're settling what's now roughly

Hungary. So some people thought that they at that time were Gog and Magog.

So you have the forces of darkness from the north and from the east. I know some Hungarian people, too. We're not good at it.

Anyway, in the midst of these attacks, as it were, on Christian Europe from north and east, we have what's called the

Carolingian Renaissance, named after Charlemagne, Charles the

Great, whom the pope crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor on Christmas Day on the year 800.

And then he was succeeded by Louis the Pious, his son, and then when Louis died, the

Frankish kingdom, the Holy Roman Empire, was divided into three, with a part in the west, basically

France, then a bit in the middle, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, down into Switzerland, et cetera, and then in the east,

Germany. So this Carolingian Renaissance, greater learning, a greater interest in the

Bible and scholarship and the church fathers of the darkness of the

Vikings and the Magyars of north and east, but then a renaissance of literature and some interesting theological developments and missions in the

Christian church in the 9th century, and that's where Gottschalk comes in. Now, is he also known as Gottschalk of Urbai?

Is this the same figure from the 9th century? Yes. I say

Gottschalk. There are various versions of saying even his name. I say Gottschalk because it's the easiest one to pronounce.

Sometimes, especially in older books, he's called Godus Culcus and various more Latinate forms.

Doesn't it mean servant of God, the actual name? It does. Got, God, Schalk, servant.

And here's this man, Gottschalk, who really was a servant of God.

And then he's called Gottschalk of Urbai because Urbai was one of several monasteries at which he resided and with which he's perhaps especially associated.

Urbai, that monastery is in northeast France. Now, many, in fact, most of our

Roman Catholic friends will claim this period as entirely their own.

They will say that Christendom during these centuries, all the way up to the

Reformation, were really Roman Catholic other than they would call schismatics and heretics that existed simultaneously.

But they will try to claim this period that Protestants will very commonly call

Catholic with a small c for the universal church. But they will try to make the claims that this was a

Roman Catholic period. Would you agree with our Catholic friends on that? I wouldn't agree with them,

Chris. I could make some remarks regarding the Middle Ages in general. I'll do that first and then come into the 9th century, hopefully.

Francis Turden has a really helpful section in his Institutes of Atlantic Theology dealing with just that sort of question because in the 21st century it's a relevance, but in the 16th and Turden, in the 17th century, it was even more important.

Where was your church before Luther was an earlier way of expressing your point.

Turden said that in the Middle Ages there was a knowledge of the

Apostles' Creed. The Apostles' Creed isn't inspired. We all know that. But in the

Apostles' Creed there's a belief in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth. Then there's Jesus Christ, his only begotten

Son, his sufferings for us. He was raised from the dead on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at God's right hand.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, we believe in the Church, we believe in the forgiveness of sins. There are some of the key things of the

Christian faith in that short summary. A lot of people knew that. And the

Apostles' Creed, when it says, I believe...the forgiveness of sins, that's justification by faith alone.

I have the forgiveness of sins by believing. I believe the forgiveness of sins. It's not, I believe the forgiveness of sins and that you have to do all these good works in order to merit before God.

So, that Apostles' Creed said you believe in the Creator, you believe in God the Father Almighty, you believe in the

Holy Spirit, and you believe in the work of Jesus Christ. So there's the core elements.

And then how is someone to live a godly life? Well, there are the Ten Commandments. Out of gratitude, God has redeemed us from Egypt and sin.

Walk before me in my light. And then how do they pray? Our Father which art in heaven.

You pray to God our Father in heaven alone, no reference to Mary or the saints.

And you ask for the coming of his kingdom, the hallowing of his name. And you seek for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification so that we do not fall into temptation.

And then we pray for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. And Turd made the point that there was the heart of it.

The Ten Commandments, the Lord's Prayer, how to pray, how to live out of gratitude and believing the

Apostles' Creed. Then you see, there's the other issue about ignorance.

People hadn't the same education in the Middle Ages. The priests didn't have the same education.

And the Christian religion, and especially a lot of American Southern Presbyterians used to point out, needs an educated ministry.

And even apart from the best will in the world or even godliness, unless you have a certain knowledge of the

Bible, of theology, of reading of good, solid books, you instinctively lose it.

So it's always going to be difficult after the fall of the Roman Empire, the decline of learning. And it is interesting with the recovery of learning, hopping back to the 9th century in Gottschalk, with the

Carlingian Renaissance, a few more texts are about higher standard of education, better training of monks and priests, and so forth.

And then you get into deeper theological discussions, the key issues return. But to say a bit more about the 9th century, our particular interest today,

I think your listeners will be interested, not only in Gottschalk, and we're going to get into that in a big way shortly, but as well as that big debate with Gottschalk about predestination involving election, reprobation, limited atonement, total depravity, no free will, irresistible grace, the perseverance of the saints, it's all there in the 9th century garb.

But as well as that debate on sovereign grace in the 9th century, there was another big debate, and again, in northern

France, where much of the Gottschalk debate took place, at a monastery in Corby, by a man called

Retrammus, who was a friend of Gottschalk's. And Retrammus set forth what is basically the

Protestant view of the Lord's Supper. In the 9th century. And he debated with another guy,

Radbertus, who held basically the Roman Catholic view, which sadly was filled with superstition and poor and wretched

Bible exegesis, and appealed to the unregenerate church membership of his day, as indeed it often, and if not usually does.

So it's interesting, where you get the right view of God's grace, you get the right view of the Lord's Supper, and where you get the wrong view of God's grace, you almost invariably degenerate into a wrong view of the

Lord's Supper. Wow. Now, I'm assuming that Augustine of Hippo, who lived four centuries approximately earlier, he,

I'm assuming, was a great influence on Gottschalk, although I don't know that for a fact. I'm just assuming that because he's...

Augustine is viewed by Protestants especially those who are faithful to the

Reformers' teachings, as taught accurately from the Scriptures, and even more specifically

John Calvin, they would recognize Augustine as one of the fathers of the faith that highlighted and brought to light the doctrine of predestination, and John Calvin viewed him as a hero of the faith, and even someone as recently in the 19th century,

Charles Adams Spurgeon did as well. But was Augustine a hero to Gottschalk, to your knowledge?

Chris, you can now take this as a fact that he most certainly was. Gottschalk loved

Augustine of Hippo. He quoted him as his major source.

And for Gottschalk, if... The key issue was, is something biblical? But on the secondary authority of the view of the

Church, the true Church, for Gottschalk, if you have Augustine on your side, you have the

Church on your side. Augustine has an absolutely massive role in the minds of Medieval Europe, and even among Orthodox Churchmen to this day, he was the father of grace in the

Middle Ages. You're talking roughly the next thousand years after Augustine, even into the

Reformation and beyond. He was the number one authority, and in fact everybody wanted to claim to be an

Augustinian. It has been said that the history of Western philosophy is footnotes on Plato or Aristotle.

Well, the history of Western Christendom, not so much the East, could be said theologically to be footnotes on Augustine.

The issue was, from one perspective, how faithful did someone hold to Augustine's view, especially

Augustine's view on grace, because many people claimed to be Augustinians, but they really weren't.

And even in this Gottschalk debate on predestination, sovereign grace, limited at particular atonement, and the perseverance of the saints, everybody claimed to be

Augustinians to follow Augustine, but some really believed what he believed, including

Gottschalk, and others, because Gottschalk was not alone in this debate, and others didn't.

In some ways, it's a bit like Calvinists today. It's theologically trendy to be a

Calvinist in many circles, but do people really hold what Calvin believes or their confessions?

Well, that's the issue. So, I'm assuming, then, Gottschalk would be considered a proto -reformer, a reformer in the church prior to the

Protestant Reformation, 700 years approximately. I would agree with that.

I'm also conscious that there are some people perhaps more historically inclined than our average listener, or perhaps more persnickety, and they would say, well, you know,

Gottschalk stayed, remained a monk, although he was sort of kicked out of his order, that Gottschalk tried the ordeal of fire, a very medieval idea, that Gottschalk had views of baptism which were like those of Augustine and are not

Protestant views. So there are some differences. More could be mentioned.

And that in the 9th century, the questions and the approach was a little bit different from the 16th century or the 21st century.

And whereas I say all these things and I recognize some truth to it, you know, basically, when you get down to the core issues from the

Bible in terms of theology, he was right in line with our beliefs.

He was a brother. If we met with him and we're talking about Sovereign Grace, we'd be nodding, our hearts would be warming within us, we'd be slapping him on the back and saying,

Amen, brother. So fully on our side, although if we were sitting beside him, being a monk,

Gottschalk seems to have some of the views of monasticism. Sometimes he didn't wash a lot.

It was that sort of thing. Right? Or politely say to brother

Gottschalk, you know, next time we come out, have a bit of a wash. They didn't really have showers in those days, but you know, clean yourself up a bit.

Well, I'm not sure that the typical person, whether or not they were in a monastery, bathed as often as we do today.

But we have to go to our very first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest today,

Angus Stewart, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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We are now back with our guest, talking about a very fascinating subject that is very rarely discussed in this day and age.

Our guest is Angus Stewart, the pastor of Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, Northern Ireland, and we're talking about Gottschalk of Orbay, and he is a 9th century

Christian that is largely forgotten by your average Christian in the 21st century, and specifically we are discussing how

Gottschalk was a medieval confessor of God's absolutely sovereign grace in Christ.

If you could tell us now exactly what you mean by the phrase, and there's an interesting word added in a phrase that many people will refer to, especially if they're

Reformed, will refer to God's sovereign grace in Christ, but you inserted a word in the title absolutely sovereign grace in Christ.

It's kind of interesting. I don't know how familiar you are with the Primitive Baptists, who are also known as the hard -shell

Baptists. They are predominantly an American phenomenon and have dwindled greatly in numbers since they arose on the scene a couple of hundred years ago, but they are both, well,

I have to be careful not to broad brush. Many of them are an enigma because they are both hyper -Calvinistic and hypo -Calvinistic.

Many of them are hyper -Calvinistic when it comes to soteriology. They believe that God elects people and they remove so much of man's responsibility from the equation that he elects people from salvation who never even become

Christians on this earth, which is obviously a heretical and hyper -Calvinistic notion.

And they're also hypo -Calvinistic because many of them do not believe that God is in sovereign control over all earthly events, such as hurricanes, such as people dying from cancer after smoking most of their lives, or a child being hit by a car.

They call Christians who view things that way,

Calvinists that view things that way, as absoluters, and they view that as a derogatory remark.

To call somebody an absolutist is, in their minds, an insult. But, what do you mean by absolutely sovereign grace in Christ?

Well, I can't comment on that group that you mentioned in the States, because I only... what you said was new to me.

We don't want to contact people with those views over here. When I say the absolute sovereignty of God in the title for tonight's speech,

I'm thinking more in the line of Jerome Zankias' great work on God's absolute predestination.

Zankias was an Italian reformer in the 16th century, and his superb book, Absolute Predestination, was translated and endorsed by Augustus Topoli, a fine

Anglican preacher and those things. The word absolute, too, is helpful in that title to set

Gottschalk apart from his detractors and, well, quite vicious and even nasty opponents in the visible

Church. Because they, too, as I said earlier, claimed to be Augustinians, claimed to honour the sovereignty of God, but didn't follow

Augustine, and more importantly, didn't follow the Scriptures. So, when I say Augustine is a...

sorry, Gottschalk as a very evil confessor of God's absolute sovereignty, I mean the real sovereignty of God, that He's sovereign over everything in Heaven and Earth, everything in Providence, like Ephesians 1, verse 11 says,

God does all things... He works all things after the counsel of His own will.

So, when we die, hurricanes, who our parents are, where we live, what diseases we have, everything.

The same hands that created the world are the same hands that order everything in Providence.

And I have found immeasurable comfort in knowing that through the hardest and most trying times, the most sorrowful trials in my life,

I have always leaned on that fact or those facts to give me comfort, because I am amazed at how many

Christians claim, I don't know if they really get comfort from this, but they claim to get comfort in thinking that God just allowed certain things that happened that were tragic in their lives.

He just allowed their loved ones to die. But that is a trial without a purpose, in my opinion.

I believe God has ordained all things just as you, all things that come to pass. And He has a purpose for them.

Even if we never know that purpose, He does, and that's what matters. The other view really is cold comfort.

If God isn't in sovereign control over everything, and this is something I'd like our listeners to think through if they're struggling with these issues, who is in control of these things?

Is it the devil? Is it us? Is it chance? Do we fall back in some evolutionary scheme?

But we believe in a gracious Heavenly Father who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ crucified, who sent the

Comforter into our hearts, the Holy Spirit has given us the Bible so we can understand the world and know God, and know ourselves as His creatures and beloved people on earth.

That's our only comfort in life and death. We really need to get deeper into the

Scriptures and trust God. You believe in God, Jesus said, believe also in me.

Believe in God through me and as you see me in the cross, sovereign, saving, gracious, caring for all the sheep, take that with you into all the extremities, difficult places and tight spots of life.

And that honours God as we live as the children of the cross. Amen. We have a listener, we have

Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who wants to know who were some of the famous contemporaries of Gottschalk in the

Christian Church? That's a good question from Ronald. The famous contemporaries of Gottschalk in the 9th century, they were famous in their own day, but they may not be so well known now, so we're getting a little bit of a history lesson as well as a theological one.

Bishop Einhart, he was the biographer of Charlemagne, Charles the

Great, he was a 9th century figure. Wolofrad Strabo, a theologian, a poet, a biographer.

Pope Nicholas, Gottschalk tried to smuggle a letter out to Pope Nicholas.

Nicholas was a bit more sympathetic to Gottschalk than some were, but then Gottschalk's enemies wrote letters to Pope Nicholas as well, so there were some figures.

There were key men on the side of Gottschalk. Remigius, Prudentius, Retramnus, the one who had the

Protestant view of the Lord's Supper. There were other men who were against him. Robanus, Maurus, Hinkmar of Reims.

Now I understand that those names aren't slipping off the tongues of many of your listeners.

If you had been around in the 9th century and were looking at the Western Church, this was like a who's who.

Gottschalk was no minor player. This thing, to use Paul's words in Acts 26, verse 26, this thing was not done in a corner.

And the great John Scotus Urugina, he was an amazing character.

He was an Irish monk, possibly the most learned man of his day, although it's easy to get a reputation for being learned when you were a heretic.

John Scotus Urugina was a Neoplatonist and a Pantheist who boiled all theology down to philosophy.

Well anyway, he was asked by some of Gottschalk's opponents to weigh in on this debate, because they knew him to be learned.

But they didn't know their man. And when they asked John Scotus Urugina what he held of predestination and grace and free will,

Urugina was completely heretical and nobody could even understand what he said. It was so weird. But he didn't get disciplined.

He wasn't excommunicated. He wasn't put under house arrest like Gottschalk was for 20 years.

He wasn't flogged nearly to death twice as Gottschalk was, at least twice. But he got away with it because in a departing church even the really bizarre heretics can get away with it.

But the Orthodox people, they're the ones who get into trouble. So he was important and he interacted with the main figures in the 9th century church to widen this out for Ronald's question.

In fact, could you widen it out when we return from our midway break? We want to give you time to hang up also and call back, because I know that the rates are dramatically reduced calling in from the

UK if you only spend less than an hour each time you call. So we're going to let you hang up now,

Brother Angus, and we're going to look forward to your return call, obviously, so that you can continue the conversation after our midway break.

If anybody wants to ask a question of our brother, Angus Stewart, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com

We're going to our midway break, which is longer than our normal break, because the

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, airs their own commercials and public service announcements during this break to localize

Iron Sherpa Design Radio to the Lake City, Florida area, an FCC requirement to localize programming to wherever you may be as a radio station.

So while they air their commercials and public service announcements, we air our commercials that are heard globally and we hope that you use this time wisely.

Write in a question to Angus Stewart at chrisarnson at gmail dot com, but also write down all of the information provided by our advertisers because remember, if you don't patronize our advertisers they may stop being our advertisers, which will mean that we will stop broadcasting and we will no longer be on the air because we rely upon the advertising dollars of our sponsors to exist.

So please write down their information and patronize them as often as you can. Don't go away, we'll be back after this break with Angus Stewart and more of our discussion on Gott's Chalk of Orbay.

Tired of box store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

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Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

The Word of God says if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

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Two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise.

And then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Did you know that all believers are priests?

In 1 Peter 2, verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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I just have two special events that I want you to be aware of. The first is this December Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th

I am going to be heading back to New York City, my old stomping grounds, to the Foundations Conference which is a conference organized and orchestrated and hosted by sermonaudio .com.

It will be in the heart of Manhattan and this is going to be an extraordinary conference once again

I'm sure because the lineup of speakers is phenomenal. We have once again

Dr. Stephen J Lawson whose voice you've been hearing promoting New Covenant Church NYC, a church in Manhattan that is a sponsor of this program.

He is the founder of One Passion Ministries and one of the best preachers alive. Paul Washer is another extraordinary preacher on the lineup.

Reverend Jeff Thomas another absolutely extraordinary preacher. Reverend Orman Tomassian who is a young pastor but who has gifts and abilities far beyond his youth and I believe he's going to be a household name amongst

Reformed Christians over the next decade. He is that good, he is that powerful, he is that gifted.

Richard Caldwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley are on the lineup. I do not know these brothers but if sermon audio picked them for the speaking roster

I'm sure they are extraordinary as well. So if you want to register for this conference where I will be going as well go to thefoundationsconference .com

thefoundationsconference .com and all the information will be there. That's this Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th.

I would strongly advise you to register quickly because they have a small venue that holds less than 200 people so they may run out of room if you wait too long.

The other event that I have been going to every year for this will be my fourth year. I'm really looking forward to it again.

The G3 conference in Atlanta Georgia that's going to be in January from Thursday the 16th of January through Saturday the 18th of January at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park Georgia a suburb of Atlanta and the

G3 if you're wondering stands for gospel grace and glory and the speakers are all as always absolutely extraordinary.

They include my friend Kosti Hinn whose name may sound familiar to you for a very bad reason his last name is

H -I -N -N and he is the nephew of the world -renowned notorious charlatan

Benny Hinn and he Kosti has renounced the word -of -faith heresies that he was raised in and he is now a

Reformed Baptist and a cessationist and a pastor in California and he spends much of his life today not only proclaiming the gospel first and foremost but also exposing the deadly dangerous and damning deceptions of the word -of -faith

Pentecostal movement so I would strongly advise you to come to this to hear this wonderful brother in Christ.

David Miller another wonderful preacher. Derek Thomas who most Reformed people are very familiar with.

My friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who I've known since the 1990s. Dr. Joel Beeky another friend of mine since the 1990s is on the lineup.

Josh Bice who's the founder of the G3 Conference. Once again we have Paul Washer and Stephen J.

Lawson on this roster as well as the other one. My friend Dr. Tom Askell the executive director of the

Founders Ministries which is the Calvinistic movement within the Southern Baptist Convention and Vodie Baucom a really phenomenal

Reformed Baptist preacher who is now although he is a Native American I don't mean a

Native American like an Indian I mean although he's from America he is now in Zambia Africa working with the

African Christian University alongside of Conrad Mbewe a dear friend of mine. If you want to register for this

G3 conference go to G3conference .com G3conference .com and you'll have all the information that you need for this conference

Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th. I would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth if you have a ministry a business a parachurch organization that you want to promote because they expect over 5 ,000 people they have over 5 ,000 people visiting this conference or attending this conference every year so that's an ideal place.

I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there as well so while they still have room I would register for one as soon as possible.

And now I want to remind you please if you love this show you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves please go to irontreppanzireradio .com

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click support then click click to donate now donate instantly or send in a check to the address on the screen also if you want to advertise with me as long as you believe in something and are promoting something that is compatible with what

I believe you don't have to believe exactly as I do but if you are promoting something that is compatible with what

I believe send an email to me at chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line also if you are not a member of a local

Bible believing church and you're not prayerfully looking for one you're living in rebellion against God so please rectify that situation

I can help you I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I have helped people find churches where they live in many parts of the world and also places where people are vacationing and they want to have a good

Bible believing church where they're going they need help finding one well send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church or something like that in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question for Angus Stewart that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

CHRI s ARN Z energy mail .com and as always please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we are discussing the theme gots chalk a medieval confessor of God's absolutely sovereign grace in Christ and before the break as you may remember

Angus you were going to expand upon your answer to Ronald in eastern Suffolk County about contemporary

Christians in gots chalk of or bays day in the ninth century yes

I was saying that this thing was not done in a corner to quote the great apostle and that not only were the major churchmen in Western Europe aware and interacting with this big controversy involving gots chalk but the biggest political figures of the day were to Charlemagne his son

Louis the pious the Emperor his three sons Charles Luther and Louis the

Empire was divided between the three of them so they governed continental Europe that part of it which was basically

France northern Italy the lowlands Switzerland Germany and then gots chalk spent time in northeast

Italy where he met Margrave Eberhard of Fruhle then gots chalk went into what was

Yugoslavia is now Croatia and he stayed with Terpimir the ruler of Croatia who fought the

Byzantines and he's one of the earliest figures in the history of Croatia so in 1996 the

Croatian government published a stamp a gots chalk stamp because he's a key man in the beginning of the records of their history so politically internationally ecclesiastically gots chalk created a huge stir in fact there were eight synods or councils in Western Europe from 1848 to 863 that is 16 years in which gots chalks issue over predestination was going through the church courts 16 years that's an amazing thing in a church court

I would also want to throw in that the monasteries were gots chalk studied I could quote the names of them older Reichenau Corby etc these were some of the major seats of learning in Western Europe with some of the biggest libraries taught by the leading theologians it's like saying to take a 16th century or more

Orthodox or 17th century day that gots chalk was in maybe there's a bit of an overstatement but he went to Oxford or Yale or Geneva or Heidelberg or in the 20th century

Westminster Theological Seminary gots chalk created the biggest stir ecclesiastically with the truth of predestination in the whole of the 9th century in fact it's not an exaggeration to say that for a monk the next monk who made as Orthodox monk who be it as big a stir with another

German another Saxon another monk Martin Luther in the 16th century the only possible exception is in Florence the monastic figure or his name escapes me he's burned at the stake anyway you know you know the guy massive issues

I don't want to throw in before I get it before I stop that gots chalk was involved in various ways with important missionary work in Europe he was a friend of a co -laborer of the

Apostle of the North Ansgar doing mission work in Denmark and into Scandinavia a guy called

Gisselmeyer he wrote a book Tome to Gisselmeyer dealing with predestination when he was in Fulda Fulda was the main base for missionary work in central

Germany going east and he himself was a missionary and a creature in and around Croatia in short a mighty figure and to throw in some of his own personal abilities he was a poet he probably wrote the poem the dedicatory poem to the

Eboe Gospels he wrote books on grammar he was a grammarian he was a logician very big into logic he had a phenomenal memory both for quoting scripture and the church fathers and his enemies remarked on that he was a monk a preacher a missionary a theologian and a confessor that is he wasn't a martyr they didn't kill him for his confession of the truth but they made him suffer 20 years under house arrest so I've got it all out there

Chris did you think that I managed to fit it in without blowing all I think you did a fine job and let's see here we have

Christian in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who asks to your knowledge is

Gottschalk the only believer in the ninth century of all five points of Calvinism other and are there any contemporaries that also shared his views prior to the

Reformation we'll go with just the ninth century with all respect to your questioner because that would widen it out a bit

Augustine or sorry Gottschalk for sure held the five points of Calvinism and hopefully we'll get more questions along that line but there were others

I mentioned earlier Remigius Prudentius and Retramnus I don't have all of their works in English I haven't studied their works as fully but these men were in significant agreement with Gottschalk and Gottschalk clearly taught all of what's now called the five points of Calvinism and there were others before them

Fulgentius of Rusp who was a bishop in North Africa in what is now

Tunisia he was expelled by the Aryans from North Africa to the end of Sardinia and he wrote on behalf of about a dozen bishops who were also expelled from North Africa on the absolute sovereignty of God and he was the leading theologian and leading churchman of North Africa and he held these things and there's a great quote from one of Gottschalk's enemies

I've mentioned him earlier a man called Robanus Morris and this is part of his letter to Pope Nicholas in which he talks about a blessed group of people and he calls quote the old predestinarians so Robanus Morris is summarizing

Gottschalk's views he says as the old predestinarians also said all these people deserve to be blessed beyond the skies that as God predestined some to eternal life so he also predestined some to eternal death so here's a 9th century theologian saying

Gottschalk taught double predestination and the old predestinarians taught this and then here's another one on particular redemption or limited atonement he says

Gottschalk as the old predestinarians also said bless their hearts

Jesus Christ was crucified and died not for the redemption of the whole world that is not for the salvation or redemption of all men but only for those who were saved and moving from particular redemption to the perseverance of the

Saints Robanus Morris summarizes Gottschalk's views in another place that same

Gottschalk also writes quote God forbid that I should ever want even to dream or only to whisper that that ancient serpent might be able to carry off with him into eternal perdition any of those for whose redemption such precious blood of our

Lord his son has been poured out to God the Father amen and then he adds

Gottschalk says as the old predestinarians also said there are wonderful people

Chris we should have these people on your radio show these old predestinarians unfortunately not with us he says quote that God does not will all men to be saved 1st

Timothy 2 verse 4 but only those who are saved however all those who are saved whom he will to save and for this reason whoever is not saved absolutely do not belong to that will that they be saved since if all those whom

God wills to be saved are not he has not done whatever he wills and if he wills what he cannot do he is not omnipotent but weak but he is omnipotent who has done whatever he willed as the scripture says the

Lord has done whatever he pleased in heaven and on earth in the sea and in all the deeps 135 verse 6

Wow well so just to clarify for our listeners when we are referring to Gottschalk and those who even lived earlier than he did as believing in the five points of Calvinism obviously those five points were articulated in an acronym centuries later and Calvin didn't exist until 700 years later what we're referring to is the actual teachings we're just labeling them as the five points of Calvinism not that they were called that obviously because it was before many centuries before Calvin was born but it is interesting that these quotes contain the phrase as the old predestinarians taught so it's obviously making a statement of fact at least in the minds of those speaking or writing that the predestination doctrine was something that was at least a century earlier

I mean and if not centuries plural earlier do you know how far back we can go into history where all five of those points all five of those doctrines total depravity unconditional election limited atonement the irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the

Saints where all of those things were taught not as again and not in an acronym like that or by those even even by those titles specifically but I believe that all those things were taught by Augustine the one limited atonement was not as clear as gottschalk and here's the amazing thing on the issue of limited atonement if someone's going to be a so -called or point of Calvinist its particular redemption or limited atonement that they would question but gottschalk on that point and even others is even clearer than Augustine way clearer and in fact gottschalk unlimited atonement is even clearer sharper and more antithetical if that's possible than the canons of Dort is absolutely amazing what gottschalk says the canons of Dort and head to section 8 says that Christ died for the elect all those and those only so he puts it puts only in there but here's here's gottschalk in his book work on predestination sexual in 11 just listen to the word only here

Christ redeemed only his Holy Church and only the elect that is only his body and members through the blood of his cross he was certainly crucified only for them and he undoubtedly suffered the death of the cross which was the most disgraceful ignominious and shameful death at that time only for them

I doubt if there's been anybody in the history of the

Christian Church who was as sharply antithetical and clear on this as gottschalk and he's in the ninth century it's absolutely amazing and it's striking to how gottschalk uses logical arguments here's a short one he says while you're looking at that up I'm gonna announce our or repeat our email address for those who want to ask a question

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHRISARNZEN at gmail .com

give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter okay yeah don't you just hit that Chris when you can't find

I'm tempted to ask you a question but I don't want you to lose your place where you're looking far away well my question was going to be as as many

Christians know who have any knowledge of church history Athanasius was known as athanasian well a phrase was connected with athanasius athanasius contra mundum meaning athanasius against the world when the leadership of the church had nearly entirely a collapsed into the damnable heresy of Arianism athanasius is one of the very few

Christians who stood strong and firm on the deity of Christ in opposition to the church now when we refer to God's truck as being a believer in what would be later called the the five points of Calvinism centuries later was he standing up nearly alone against the entirety of the church as athanasius did approximately five and a half centuries before that I like that quote about about athanasius athanasius the whole world is against you and then athanasius responded then

I am against the whole world amen now athanasius we could say in a church situation by the grace of God he endured fierce persecution he wrote he was maligned he was slandered he was expelled he his views by the grace of God which are biblical views won the day they were set forth creedally and they became orthodoxy

Gottschalk never commanded the same respect he held these views he was marginalized some people agreed with him they debated his issues but church politically and ecclesiastically in the ninth century this isn't a criticism of Gottschalk Gottschalk's views did not win the day that stream of truth ran underground the church's courts decided against him he remained in in under house arrest and it was the

Reformation which was the honoring of his views but they were always there the views of Augustine the old predestinarians volgentius of rust

Isidore of Seville who taught double double predestination election reprobation and Gottschalk quoted him and then there were

Gottschalk's friends but then things got watered down a bit and then you have Augustinians like Gregory of Rimini Huss and John Wycliffe and then you have the

Reformers the Synod of Dort and the Orthodox teaching I find the quotes on particular atonement great listen here for the biblical text and for the logic he was a big logician this is a good this is a virtuous thing he didn't believe in paradoxes or antinomies or irreconcilable contradictions or mysteries and whatnot the

Apostle Paul says Romans 8 31 to 32 if God before us who can be against us he who did not even spare his own son but gave him up for us all how will he not also give us with him all things therefore writes

Gottschalk if God gave his son even for all the reprobate then he has given to them with him all good things and through this eternal life but he has not given them with him all good things therefore he did not give him up for them he is a similar argument from Romans 5 verses 8 and 9

God commends his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us much more having now been justified in his blood we should be saved from wrath through him

Gottschalk comments therefore if Christ died even for the reprobate then the reprobate to having been justified in his blood will be saved from wrath through him but the reprobate will not be saved from wrath through him therefore

Christ did not die for the reprobate and Gottschalk is really clear that Jesus death

Jesus sufferings and Jesus prayers were particular and often John 7 verse 9

I pray for them I pray not for the world but for them that has given me because Christ's prayers are based upon his atonement and then the people objected what about the word world and what about the world all and Gottschalk had to explain them here's a wonderful quote do

I have your permission to continue Chris oh yeah I am utterly fascinated because I know so very little about this figure from history and you are truly enlightening me and I don't

I am just spellbound and I'm baffled why he is not more widely known even amongst reformed

Christians today that's a good question we should come back to that but why he's not better known but here Gottschalk quotes

Augustine likewise speaking about the two worlds Augustine says quote the whole world in some places is the church and the whole world hates the church therefore the world hates the world that is the hostile world hates the reconciled world the condemned world hits the saved world the polluted world hits the cleansed world he's pointing out that from the

Bible the word world is used of two different groups of people depending on the context likewise there is a world about which the

Apostle says lest we be condemned with the world first Corinthians 11 verse 2 for that world the

Lord does not pray for he is not unaware of that for which it has been predestinated

Chris I think you would enjoy the primary source for my thinking on the on Gottschalk it's a book by Victor Ginky and your readers if they're interested should grab a pen although if they're driving their car at this time

I don't have any accidents in the tri -state area anyway

Victor Ginky and Francis X Gummerlach the book is called Gottschalk and a medieval predestination controversy the introductory section gives a history of Gottschalk fascinating stuff then the next part consists of writings of Gottschalk all his writings of sovereign grace then the next part deals with other writings mostly of his enemies against him and that little books available on paperback it's like 250 pages available where your heart the publisher the publisher is

Marquette it's Marquette University Press Marquette University Press Milwaukee Wisconsin it's 20 2010 and I should issue a walk that I'm not being sponsored by a walk that company from Milwaukee Marquette I don't get come look but if you don't want as heavy a book the

RFPA has a book for young people on Gottschalk rfpa .org

called Gottschalk servant of God as you noted Chris that's what the word Gottschalk means servant of God it's a story of courage faith and love for the truth this book even has pictures in it

I like a good book with pictures you can imagine there's a hundred and thirty -odd pages there are some maps the book is written for young people but it's a it was a lovely read

I enjoyed reading it and and I'm no longer in the young people category rfpa .org

that's the Reform Free Publishing Association's website but if you could also I'm sorry those are the two books

I'd recommend especially yeah if you could after the show email me the other the Marquette University website with the specifically for the publishing wing that has brought the works on Gottschalk into print

I would be fascinated by that and would love to order it or them I forget

I think you've mentioned two different books by them but I could be wrong but what we're gonna do now is we're gonna take our final break it's gonna be much shorter than the last one and if you have questions send them in now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time it's

Chris Arnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with more of our discussion on Gottschalk after these messages from our sponsors.

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Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnsett. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about ten minutes to go is

Angus Stewart, and we have been talking about Gottschalk of Orbe, a medieval confessor of God's absolutely

Sovereign Grace in Christ. If you have a question send it in immediately at ChrisArnsett at gmail .com,

ChrisArnsett at gmail .com because we're gonna be over before you know it. And we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, if Reformed theology was truly the teachings of Jesus Christ and his disciples, why did they completely disappear from the scene after the apostolic era and only rise incrementally throughout church history until they became more fully known all the way into the 16th century?

Thanks to Margaret for sending in that question. The first thing we'd want to do in answering it is get rid of the condition.

If it is this, it simply is the truth. Jesus taught that God hides these things from the wise and prudent in Matthew 11 and reveals them unto babes.

And then he prays, even so father, for so it is good in thy sight.

And then he actually adds, come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

There's election and reprobation, it's God's good pleasure, the gospel call goes forth, and those who are heavy laden over their sins must come to Jesus' trust and believe in him.

Margaret's second question deals with the development of doctrine. The church is always a mixed bag.

There are believers and unbelievers, the believers aren't always as strong, the pastors aren't always that well taught, and God has put so much in the

Bible that it takes time to unfold and develop it. The Apostles, after Jesus taught the truth, their successors did, and then we have men like Augustine, Pogentius of Rusp, Theodore of Seville, Gottschalk and his friends,

Huss, Wycliffe, the Reformers, and then the other thing we have to deal with is the incompleteness of the records.

We don't know what everyone held because these things aren't all written down.

And if I could branch on to the other question that's related to that, and one you asked earlier, how come

Gottschalk isn't widely known? That's an important issue too, because the Reformers apparently had never heard of him.

Really? Nope. And this in large part has to do with the manuscripts of his works.

Historically, not in the eyes of God, Gottschalk was by and large a loser. In the eyes of God though.

We have something in common here. Everyone acknowledged him as a great teacher. They made copies of his works, and even works that they disagreed with could be found around the libraries and monasteries of Europe.

But Gottschalk's books, there weren't as many copies. Gottschalk, remember, died after 20 years under house arrest as one excommunicated.

The first Protestant who came across Gottschalk's writings was James Usher, the

Irish Archbishop of Armagh, who wrote a book about him in Latin in 1631.

The Swiss Reformed theologian Johann Jakob Hottinger wrote a book about Gottschalk in 1718, again in Latin.

The first English translation of any of Gottschalk's works, so far as I'm aware, was written in 1978 when

Reverend Rowan Henkel, actually my former pastor, translated it from the

Latin into English and published it in the Protestant Reformed Theological Journal. So 1978. And then in 1930, 1931 and onwards, a lot more of Gottschalk's works on predestination were discovered in a library in Bern in Switzerland.

So you're talking 1930. The vast majority of the books weren't even known in Latin in the modern era. Bern, which is interesting, that Swiss city is the same name as his father,

Count Bern. And then in 2010, so 70 years later, all of Gottschalk's writings on God's sovereignty were put for the first time in English in one volume.

The volume I spoke to you of earlier by Viktor Genki and Francis X. Rummerloch entitled,

Gottschalk, a medieval predestination controversy. So a large part of the Gottschalk outcome, he wasn't better known as publication issues.

And then the second question, you know, why, a second way of answering the question why is he not so well known is that, this one's a bit more delicate, because Gottschalk is so sharp, so antithetical, so clear, there are just no gray areas in Gottschalk.

He is, for many, even in the professibly reformed world, probably too hot to handle.

That seems odd that reformed people would find him too hot to handle if he's agreeing with them.

Well you see, the thing is, the truth is very hard to hold. The truth is costly. And churches, even churches start out really sound.

After a while, you know, if you take even the Synod of Dort, several generations later, most of the people in the

Netherlands have never even heard of the Synod of Dort. In the English world, there were people who thought that the

Synod of Dort was actually teaching Arminian views. Wow. Because of some slanderous reports that then get published.

The truth gets lost. The sharp truth of God's sovereign grace is a bit like the book of the law in the days of Josiah.

It's often rediscovered when some people are digging around a church and they come up with a text, and they say, wow, look at this.

Because the truth is, a sharp election, reprobation, limited atonement, they're not popular. And even we who believe it have to, well, me for one and many others, have to struggle.

Is this right? Is this fair? Is this for the Bible's fame? Isn't this a bit too hard? It's difficult.

Well, you know, I think that we should start an ad campaign. I don't know if you are familiar with an American ad campaign over in Northern Ireland, but there was a milk commercial campaign that went by the phrase, got milk?

And you would see a person with a white mustache, not a real mustache, but a white upper lip because they were drinking milk.

Well, we should start the one on billboards and so on called Gottschalk? And try to revive interest in this great figure, because you have brought to the surface today a things that I was very ignorant of.

Of course, I'm ignorant of a lot of things, but this in particular amazes me, because I've been a

Reformed Christian for decades, and this is just all new to me, the vast majority of it.

You know, Chris, Gottschalk had a very interesting way, I'm thinking perhaps of Margaret's question, a little bit tongue -in -cheek here.

People asked him, how could he prove that what he said was true? And he said, number one, the Scriptures. Number two, the best of the

Church Fathers, especially Augustine, Fulgentius, etc., I hold, but he offered a third way of finding out.

He said he was willing to go through the trial by ordeal, that if someone would heat a barrel of boiling water, he would be willing to go into it in the hope that God, in the conviction that God would deliver him and he wouldn't be scalded to death.

That then he would get out of that barrel of boiling water and go into a barrel of boiling pitch, and then of oil, rather, and then third, pitch, and then fourth, animal fat.

So maybe that's what we should do, Chris. Maybe we should ask you to promote the theories of the truth of Gottschalk and go through the trial by ordeal.

I'll pass on that. Or we could just fall back on Scripture and the test of Augustine and the

Reformed Creed. It's up to you, Chris. I think the latter is one I prefer. Well, I mean by saying that Gottschalk was a man of his time.

In the Middle Ages, people thought that God would vindicate a person or their views by this. Obviously not.

By the way, Chris, it might be worth mentioning that I gave a video speech on Gottschalk that's on YouTube.

So if someone types in, Gottschalk, absolute sovereignty of God or confessor, they would be able to get that on YouTube, for instance.

Oh yeah, definitely. Some nice PowerPoint presentations with some pictures, including one of a cauldron that people would do the trial by ordeal.

Wow. Well, you know, I am going to give a nudge, and I think that you should too, to Reform Free Publishing Association to get a book into print by you that would be a more exhaustive treatment outside of the children's book that they publish on this issue, and I would love to hear updates on that.

Just to remind our listeners, rfpa .org, Reform Free Publishing Association's website is rfpa .org,

and also the website of the church pastored by our guest today,

Covenant Protestant Reform Church in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, that website is cprf .co

.uk. C -P -R -F, which stands for Covenant Protestant Reform Fellowship, .co

.uk. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Angus, for being on our show today. I look forward to many return visits from you.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,