Shabir Ally's Objections to the Atonement

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -three -four -one And now with today's topic here is

James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning last week of dividing lines before next week

Where there won't be dividing lines because we won't be here a week from this morning

I intend to be rising. I don't know where in the world will be. I really haven't looked at the route

I know we're going to two cities and I've been told that one of the cities is just Beautiful and gorgeous and I'm sure

I'll get a good look at it from my balcony Unlike other people who get off the boat and go look at things

I just prefer staying where I am, especially since this is my favorite ship so we're gonna be there next week and the class will have started by now and we'll be well into things and moving toward the debate with Shabir Ali on the 19th

Friday night the 19th I know there are many of you in Seattle who are just waiting to get your tickets.

Don't do that Get them now folks. We need to know who's coming and need to make sure you can you can get in so you need to be doing that and of course

I need everybody to be praying for next week. We Obviously our long -term goal is to produce an entire body of apologetic material primarily in the form of debates, but also written materials that will benefit believers here in the

United States will benefit believers overseas will benefit the persecuted church and Not just now but long after we ain't around anymore because we are addressing topics that do not change with time we are addressing the subject of the crucifixion of Christ and the

Islamic rejection thereof and so we would Covet your prayers that that is exactly what we will be doing

And helping to produce this this coming week. So next week no dividing lines at all second announcement before we get back to Specifically the topic of Shabir Ali's teachings on this subject

Second topic is stick around After we go off the air today

Hopefully someone on the other side of the glass is listening now because I haven't mentioned this to him stick around after we go off the air today because Even though we'll do it in the regular time frame and you'll hear the normal stuff

Instead of the feed going dead afterwards We're going to do two things for those of you who are listening now and remember to do this

Specifically this coming Christmas. There's going to be a new Christmas CD coming out from Milo Hotzenbuehler now

Milo Hotzenbuehler is just the biggest star we've ever had on the program. Sorry Steve and Milo's putting out a

Christmas CD and Milo has a close friend named

Clyde Valman and In fact, some people think that Milo is a most multiple personality disorder

Manifestation of Clyde Valman, but I don't I don't that's a theory that I've heard, but I don't really you know buy into that and So what we're gonna do right after the program today, and I'll try to remind you as we're going off the air right after program

I'm gonna play two songs for you. You get to hear two special songs and one will

Demonstrate the the genius and it is genius. It truly is if you've ever tried to sit down and Write parody music and perform it.

Well have it make sense especially That is primarily focused on North Dakota That really limits your range of possibilities it takes genius

So we're gonna play a song that illustrates the genius of Milo Hotzenbuehler, but then right afterwards

Right after that for those of you who know what in the world's going on We will play a song demonstrating that that his friend

Clyde Valman Have you heard the Clyde Valman? I bet you didn't you haven't heard this yet Have you the

Clyde Valman is able to to sing a song to? And in fact, of course, they're actually the same person but anyway

That'll be right after the program today. Rich is shaking his head in the other room. He has no idea what's going on You will enjoy this immensely.

Trust me you you really all I know is I just don't turn nothing off and you I just Just go from there.

That's right. So it will it will all it will all work out. So keep that in mind I hope I keep that in mind because tradition is tradition and and You know once that that music stops at the it starts at the end my brain just goes into auto shutdown

So we'll hopefully remember that now What objections? Should we expect to hear?

In the opening presentation by Shabir Ali on Friday night, October 19th.

I hope Shabir is listening I hope Shabir recognizes that we play his comments on this program and we don't have to cut things up We don't have to cut things out.

We are are open to allowing all these things to to take place and give an honest and hopefully compelling response and so what

Objections, would you expect to hear next week if you're going to be going up there and I encourage you to be there in person

Watching DVDs is great. Listening to mp3s is great But the folks who are there who get to experience the pre -debate discussions and buzz and so on so forth

They're the ones that remember these things the longest I think and so I would really really really really encourage you

To to be there if you can at all make arrangements to do so Well, I think we know because a number of years ago a debate was set up.

I believe it was in Toronto and The Christian that Shabir Ali was supposed to be debating was delayed at the airport at which can always happen and We certainly hope that that doesn't happen in this situation

It's sort of hard for me coming into Seattle the port of Seattle on a ship to be delayed But hey, you know, you never know we hope none of that takes place and So Shabir went ahead with his opening presentation.

Did Jesus Christ die for the sins of the world and Here is I think where you really get, you know

The the essence of the argumentation and I believe that we will hear pretty much the same thing now

Why do I say pretty much the same thing? Well, there's only so many things that a Muslim can say in the 2004 debate

Shabir Ali was very clear and stating. Hey, I recognize I'm a Muslim I but by the fact that I've been raised as a

Muslim I Don't appreciate the necessity for the resurrection because I don't appreciate the necessity for the cross because of what surah 4 1 2 7 says

And and Shabir is a scholar of the Quran. He he knows all the different You know

Understandings and and he he spent much of his time in that 2004 debate actually talking about chronic

Interpretation in his opening statement and the various ways which surah 4 1 57 can be understood So I'm sure that's gonna come up and I'm sure we're gonna have some good cross -examination on that.

I spent about An hour and a half last night with my Arabic tutor doing nothing but working through every single aspect every single word of surah 4 1 57 and So I'm sure that's gonna come up and we're gonna have a just have a discussion about it but Likewise what he says in the presentation.

We're gonna listen to parts of today Is very very very similar to that of his mentor

Jamal Badawi and so there is a I think a pretty much a range of meaningful criticism that a

Muslim is sort of limited to as Far as what can be said in response to the

Christian claim that Jesus Christ Willingly gave himself as a sacrifice for God's people now. I can't tell you which

Area is going to predominate in the debate. It could be theological It could be historical.

It could be both they could be even it could be 90 % 10 % I don't know no way of knowing till we get into it

I can sort of tell you where what my opening statement is gonna emphasize emphasize I'm gonna cut try to cover all of it as best

I can but Obviously once you get into especially into rebuttal and cross -examination

There tends to be one of the two Elements that's gonna predominate over the other that's and which it's gonna be don't know

You know, I can't can't mind read can't can't see the future. So Let's listen to what should be

Raleigh said about these are common objections. This is from the Islamic mindset This is where I think a lot of Christians fall down They've never spoken to a

Muslim and therefore when they hear the objections the objections Since they're new

Don't seem sort of like well, that's silly. Well, that's silly is not a response If you've never heard it before sometimes it takes a while to formulate a response

So it's important to hear it and to understand so let's let's sort of dive in This is in the second portion.

By the way, if you want to watch this you can actually watch this on YouTube That's where I grabbed it from grabbed the audio from anyways this is from a

Series did Jesus die for the sins of the world Jesus was not willing to die on the cross

According to Matthew according to Mark according to Luke He was begging God up until the very last moment to save him from the cross

It is said that the night before he was arrested to be put on the cross Jesus was praying

He was praying. He was asking God God if it'd be possible Let this cup pass away from me

Yet not what I will but what you will in other words according to this Jesus didn't want to go ahead

With this he can see that death awaits him He knows that they will come at any moment and try to arrest him and crucify him and he doesn't want this to happen

He's asking God to come up with something else. Let there be some other way of dealing with this

But let Jesus not have to go through with this according to one of these Gospels the gospel according to Luke an

Angel came down from heaven Actually two angels to strengthen him Perhaps to give him more resolve

But even after that it says in the gospel of Luke that his sweat Were like great drops of blood so much.

He was in agony over what awaited He didn't want to go through with it according to Matthew Mark and Luke So much so that according to Matthew and Mark two of these

Gospels even after Jesus was put on the cross When he was about to die

He finally said my God my God. Why have you forsaken me?

And it shows that right up to the very end. He didn't want to go through with it. He was not a willing participant in this scheme

So this is something that I've heard him repeat in a number of different context is that the synoptic

Gospels present an unwilling Jesus and of course you can likewise hear similar echoes from a couple years ago in the debate with John Dominic Crossan when he tries to present the

Markin Jesus is out of control But the Ohanian Jesus is very much in control and so this is evidence of development and Shabir accepts all of this accepts all of the

Non -documented since there are no documents to demonstrate this process of redaction editing over time

Non -documented theoretical and there's the exact same kind of theoretical

Non -documented well actually a little bit more documented. I must admit.

There's there's actually more documentation of this and there is anything That he says about the New Testament redaction of the of the

Quran for example the second surah We know historically circulated separately from the

Quran for at least a period of time early on and we know from from the

Islamic tradition itself that there was a There was a committee in essence assigned by Uthman to gather these things together and some of the ayahs were only found memory of one person it's all sorts of stuff like this that's that you can get into that I doubt that he accepts in regards to the the construction of the

Quran over time, but anyway, he accepts all the stuff in regards to New Testament and Any differences between the

Gospels are to be explained a naturalistic principles Even though the Quran says revelation was received it was given to Jesus and so on and so forth and that was going on at The time is still you know

Paul's the one who did all these things and we'll be talking about this in in the opening statement But but the idea is the synoptics presented unwilling

Jesus and so though you have Mark for example in Mark chapter 14

Verse 21 saying for the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of him

But woe to that man by whom the Son of Man has betrayed it would have been good for that man if he had not been born

Well, that sounds a little bit like someone who who knows what's going to be happening Then he establishes the

Lord's Supper He talks about the blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many It seems to me like he's well aware of not only what's coming

But he goes toward it and and does he not say it is necessary with the Son of Man to go to Jerusalem be betrayed in Matthew 16

Again, when he announces this Peter says may it never be far be it from you. He rebukes him you're thinking the thoughts of men not of God and Then there's even the prophecy of his resurrection in Mark 14 27 you all fall away because it's written

I will strike down the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered. But after I have been raised I will go ahead of you to Galilee and I Don't know.

It just seems pretty hard to come up with this idea And you know, you really have to put Jesus down a good bit to say this

I mean there have been many a brave soldier who knowing that he was facing imminent death the next day

Does not sweat drops of blood You see once you remove the redemptive element from Jesus's own self -consciousness

You now have someone who is quite cowardly You have someone who does not even come close to the level of bravery that you would find in pagans you would you would find in in the men from Sparta to use a

One that would be familiar to a lot of people now that wouldn't have been about you know a year ago but You you look at that men who have who have gone to their deaths quite bravely

Unlike Jesus. In fact, I have heard very very offensive In fact, we may have played or skipped it

I don't remember whether or not but played a a Muslim apologist and I will not hold Shabir Ali accountable for men like this but Muslim apologists from the the greatest

Single concentration of theological idiocy and ignorance on the internet called a pal talk a debate took place there where a

Islamic apologist really Insulted Christ on this very basis that he was in essence cowardly that he in essence was was afraid of his own death

And that's not what's going on here. Is it not when you allow the New Testament to speak for itself?

When you allow the New Testament speak for itself Jesus is Jesus's Prayer to the

Father is not about his own death. It's not about his own physical suffering But you see to admit that what he's talking about here is that great transaction where Jesus Christ?

Willingly gives himself and becomes the object of the wrath of God in the place of his elect people

Well that has to be rejected because Paul came up with all that allegedly even though it was preached long before Paul came along But hey

Paul came up with all that and we reject that on the basis of 35 words in the

Quran That's it. Not ever commented on by Muhammad or by almost two centuries worth of Muslim scholars after that, but hey there there's our basis for rejecting all the historical data and all the

New Testament writers and and all the rest that stuff is 35 Arabic words in surah 4 157 and so You have to present

Jesus as as basically be being far less than a than a meaningful

Prophet in fact, it's interesting in that same surah Just above that it is admitted that the

Jews had killed the prophets and yet somehow it said that they did not kill this one

Rasool Who is who is Jesus, but it was made to appear to them? Well, we will talk about a lot of that, but here's what you have and obviously it is

Really easy to demonstrate that Matthew Mark and Luke do present Jesus as a knowing willing participant a one who indeed is giving himself in behalf of the world and of course

We will make reference to that in our opening statement And if that is not challenged then it will stand as a given fact if it is challenged

Then I'd say be very easily defensible So this presents a problem if God is determining to let the innocent people go free and He's crucifying

Jesus instead It would have helped matters if Jesus was willing The fact that Jesus is not willing makes it look very bad on God how because You have to imagine the scenario.

It is as though God has before him a bunch of criminals

God is like a judge having the criminals and the judge says to the criminals criminals. I love you go free

But he says Somebody has to die because that's the law for the criminals to go free.

Somebody has to pay the price So who's going to pay the price guards bring my son? and then the guards come in bringing the son and the son

Comes down on his knees, and he says father. Please is there no other way, please father.

I think of something fast Let it not happen like this. I'll go along with what you say father, but please isn't there some other way?

Fuck they see what happens when you cut the New Testament into little pieces and ignore everything that Jesus said you know anything that goes against your theory

You you you kick that out, and then you accept it goes with your theory And then you can make Jesus say anything you are there's no son and by the way if I ever did this like to Muhammad Yeah, I mean, it's it.

You can do this to anybody. It'd be so easy to say well. You know what? my theory is

That all of the Medinan surahs are our later editions of a rising political power

Which by the way you could make a pretty strong case for and so I'm only gonna accept the

Meccan surahs Which is where you have the peace and and love and joy and happiness?

Except the the persecuted religious minority and all the rest that stuff and so I could turn

Muhammad's message on its head that way by chopping up the Quran and exactly how many

Muslims would accept that well Okay, so why should we accept chopping up a New Testament with even less?

Evidence behind so doing sorry you better die. That's the law Criminals I love you go free

You see it doesn't look very good on God if Jesus is not a willing participant in this scheme by which

God wants to forgive the people and So the fourth gospel the one which was last to be written sense this problem and try to deal with this particular

Problem you must realize that the Gospels initially when they were written were written as separate Individual documents and it were circulated in different lands eventually people thought it

Better to compile all of these Gospels into one single book and so they compiled them

They collected them from various regions compiled them into one single book, but prior to that they were circulated individually

So those who read Mark's gospel did not know what was in Matthew's gospel and those who read Luke did not know

What is going to be in John so finally when John is writing his gospel? There's about now 70 years after Jesus had already been taken up into heaven

Notice he's putting this around 80 100 put it as far down there as possible, and he's already mentioned.

You know we John we don't really know who John was and certainly was an eyewitness and things like that so you again you know if most of Shabir's listeners were to listen to a modern orientalist saying the same things about the

Quran Wow there would be tremendous emotion involved, but this is just you know the the standard presentation

John wants to make sure that he gets over this problem It should not appear in John's gospel as though Jesus is not willing to go ahead with it because this makes him look very much

Like a human being and it makes it look very bad on God that God has this unwilling Participant in this whole scheme so according to John's gospel then

Jesus was quite willing That from the very start Jesus already knew he was the

Lamb of God who came to die for the sins of the world From the very start it is said in John's gospel that yeah here or John the

Baptist Already declared that this is the Lamb of God who came to die for the sins of the world

So Jesus must have known it and everybody must have known it right from the very start According to this gospel then

Jesus Declares that he is willing to go ahead and die for the sins of the world He said for example in this gospel that I am the shepherd

By the way, just keep something in mind. I found this and again Lord willing it will come up on the 19th

I've found it fascinating that from Again, it's it's this is the the anachronism forced upon the

Muslim reader They have to assume that their controversial issues were the controversial issues of the first century and So they have to assume that there was controversy over Jesus dying upon a cross

There wasn't any The only people who had a problem with Jesus dying on the cross were the were the were the

Gnostics who were Gnosticists Who denied Jesus had a physical body and they're not really relevant Especially in a

Muslim Christian argument I mean as soon as a Muslim starts using the Gnostics You know that the arguments lost when you have to borrow somebody who isn't even a monotheist

Who doesn't even believe that God created all things or even could ever create all things? When you when you guys start borrowing those folks come up with your arguments

You got a real problem on your hands. And so that wasn't you know, you're gonna hear at one point

Well, maybe not in this one. It might be in the in the Regent University debate Where where he says, you know

John adds the spear thrust and Jesus aside as a means to try to Combat Gnosticism and the breaking of the legs again was just simply a means of trying to prove that Jesus died

That wasn't the argument You've got to be able to demonstrate that was an argument and that it was a concern for the early church at this point at that early point in time

For that to be a meaningful argument But they never try to do that because they're just reading this into the history again forced upon them

By 35 words in Arabic written 600 years down the road who dies for his sheep

He says nobody can take my life away from me because I've been given authority to lay down my life

And I've been given authority to take it back up again and this last gospel Jesus appears much more powerful

Than he used to appear. It's no longer The weak human being that was praying to God asking

God to take this stuff away from me. Now. He's a powerful individual He's almost like a divine being walking the surface of the earth or perhaps even floating above the surface of the earth

Has opened my mouth I sound really good professional

Guy here on the earth. I the reason I was doing that is I just could not help but remember

Two years ago as I was writing my notes when when was that wasn't November? No, look at the crossing debate

It was in November Where did we go I Know but where did we sail to we go out of Vancouver in the winter in November?

That doesn't make any sense to me August okay, that's Yeah, that's what that's what

I was thinking. That's what I was it was the week before Katrina happened you guys were on That's right.

That's right. That's right on the cruise when Katrina happened. That's right. Oh Yeah, that's good could have been

November because an Alaska cruise in November would have to be on an icebreaker We wouldn't have to go see the the ice flows they'd be chasing us around but anyway

Yeah, as I was writing the notes for that two years ago There was this statement from Crossin and I had to wrestle with whether I was going to include it or not in fact when it did come up during the

Debate I had to present it very very carefully. I think I play it on the air here, though Where when he talks about John's presentation of Jesus on the cross?

He says it's so unrealistic and Jesus is so powerful And he's so much in control that you'd almost think that from the cross

Jesus is looking out and going hey you can see Bethsaida from here Just just no pain no suffering blah blah blah blah blah well here

You're hearing this reflected in an Islamic presentation, so where are these folks borrowing from I keep telling you

I mean their favorite person these days is named Bart Ehrman and so when a

Religion has to borrow the unbelieving world to make its arguments

That's a that's a big indication. That's one of the things I have said And I keep saying it over and over again we need to develop and continue let me change the way

I put this we need to continue to develop a consistently Christian response to Islam in other words

We can't fall for the temptation to buy the same kind of Naturalistic response to Islam that they use to respond to Christianity does that mean it's gonna be harder for us

Yes, service to the truth is always harder than pragmatism Always is but that's what you've got to do if you're really gonna honor the truth

And so he does not pray here to be saved from the cross But rather he makes it quite clear that he's going willingly and he says nobody can take my life away from me

I've been given authority to lay down my life And I've been given authority to take it back up again as if he's going to be resurrected by his own might by his own power eventually

Eventually when he's to be arrested According to this gospel. He comes out and powerfully gives himself up to be arrested

So that when he finally is put on the cross and he's about to die And you remember what he said according to some other

Gospels. He said my god my god Why have you forsaken me? But in this gospel, he doesn't say any such thing because that would make him appear weak would make him appear unwilling

Now I'm gonna make this point in the debate And I'm gonna use the Quran to do it, but I so I won't mention exactly how

I'm gonna do that right now, but Here's a good reason why The phone call we got a few weeks ago is relevant because remember we got a phone call a few weeks ago about this very text and What is going on when

Jesus says Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani and I have I'm in print in my book on the

Trinity in asserting That whatever you do at this text you have to first and foremost recognize that this is the same thing as a

Christian today saying something along the lines of Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me

Why? Well, because that is a part of our hymnology That is a part of the common possession of Christian people what we have in hymns music

We all know sticks in the mind whether it's good or bad Which might be a good reason to you know, be careful what you listen to but it sticks in the mind it is memorized far more easily than anything else is and Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani is the beginning of the 22nd

Psalm and the 22nd Psalm is a Messianic Psalm it is a psalm filled with passages that are fulfilled in Christ And not only is his crucifixion pictured there, but so is his ultimate victory and So whatever else you do with it, however else you much you want to read into it

You've got to start with the recognition that if you put a Christian in the context

Christ is in fighting for breath and They start off with the first line of It is well with my soul or amazing grace wherever else

I'd be they're calling to mind the entirety of that song and This was hymn number 22 in the

Jewish hymn book Okay, and if you ignore that you're gonna be missing the whole point of the citation

So to read this in such a way as if Jesus is saying no, this is not

Appropriate this is this is I don't want to be going through with this and and all the rest that stuff

Is to completely miss the the context of Jesus's words And of course it does require you to ignore everything else the

Jesus says father into thy hands. I commit my spirit and and You know all the rest that stuff, but that's that's what's going on And he would make him appear as though he was forsaken that he was hoping for something else

Than what eventually happened. So according to this gospel, he doesn't say my god my god

Why have you forsaken me instead? He says it is finished and then he finally dies as though you have here a picture of a man who was trying to accomplish something and Then finally when it is accomplished.

He says it is finished now just for a moment Go back to just the one text.

I read from Mark 14 It is necessary the Son of Man goes it is be fulfilled but blah blah blah blah and if you take just that one section

Would not it is finished fit with that absolutely perfectly No need for all these theories.

No need to in essence accuse Matthew Mark Luke and John of lying no need to accuse

Jesus of cowardice no need to to in essence then say

Paul is the the one who who did all this stuff and Blame him for all these things no need for any of that stuff

So why does Shabir Ali do it because of 35 words written 600 years later and then he lets his soul go out

So he actually came into the world Specifically for this to die for the sins of the world that today isn't that what

Matthew says in Matthew 1 21 in one of the texts that he says actually says that Jesus didn't want to do this

Isn't it Matthew who announces he shall save his people from their sins as part of the birth narrative

Well, you see these kinds of theories just don't allow you to take the whole text

So you got cut those parts out and say well, I found a scholar someplace. It doesn't believe that's original

Well, you know what? You can find a scholar any place that believes anything. That's really when many

In fact, it's interesting yesterday. I was while I was writing I was listening to this again, and I and I I remember in the debate with Mike like Kona like Kona had mentioned something that James DG Dunn had said said

And I had to chuckle as I listened to Shabir saying well, he's just one scholar. That's just one guess and I think back to our

Biola debate where he actually makes the assertion that Thomas is earlier than mark and The one scholar he gives is the liberal female scholar at Boston College as this that's the source of this over against the vast majority of everybody else and That's in that sense in that context

Well scholars have said or a scholar has said actually well a liberal female at Boston College has said well you again

It's so easy to find anybody who said anything on that level today

That anybody who just simply uses the term scholar Without a giving the source and then be making some attempt to substantiate the reasoning of the scholar

It's just not a meaningful argument Christians read the Bible They remember Jesus as the willing participant as the one who deliberately came into the world to die for the sins of the world

They do not remember that he was an unwilling participant according to the other three Gospels you see the story has been reworked in order to make

Jesus appear a little differently than he appeared in the other Three Gospels, so now he appears willing and he goes through with this whole scheme

If he appears willing well, then this makes it look a little bit better on God See, that's how the story has been revised now if Jesus appears willing then we can have a different scenario

We no longer have this scenario of the judge who wants to let the criminals go free And he says bring my son and the son comes in weeping crying and praying

Now you have a situation where the judge is willing to let the criminals Die and he says criminals you got to die.

That's the rule, but the son comes in and says father I Have pity on these people let them go and I will die in their stead

And this is the image that many of the preachers and evangelists really love They love this image because it makes better For an image of God and of Jesus So now

God all only has to say okay criminals you go free because somebody else has offered to die in your place

And God then perhaps is not so happy crucifying his son, but because the son has offered

God goes ahead and lets it happen that way now this makes it look better for God according to this revised story

However, this does not free the story of all of its problems Because once you say that Jesus died for the sins of the world even if he said it this way you still have a major difficulty and the difficulty has been this if Jesus and whom be peace can come in and Have compassion for the people and he can say father let them go because I feel sorry for them

If Jesus can have that much compassion Why couldn't the father himself have that much compassion even more

Now I was thinking about this and I would once again Point out that once you chop up the

New Testament. You can make it say anything you want There is There is something Good to be said about emphasizing to Christians teaching

Christians appropriately That the image of Jesus coming between two parties and In essence trying to convince the father to be a nice guy is

Not the image of the New Testament Who is and I remember who is who is to blame for?

All of even John who's to blame for this from Shibrelli's perspective the Apostle Paul Paul's the one who comes up with all this stuff

And since all the Gospels are written after Paul, even they have been polluted by this

Pauline theology see Now if you go to Paul though and ask a simple question, what did he teach?

About the origin and source of our salvation What did he teach about this subject?

Did he present this idea where Jesus is the originator of salvation and The father is this this mean nasty

Mean -spirited type type situation Is that what he taught?

No, who is the origin and source of? grace and the entirety of the gospel itself in Paul's writings go to Ephesians 1

Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ If you will carefully examine all the key satirical passages this decree of salvation this act of salvation the love of salvation all flow from the father

The very idea that there is anywhere presented in any kind of meaningful contextual reading of the

New Testament of that kind where you have the father who just simply says To quote -unquote the prisoners notice he doesn't make any distinction between elect and non -elect or anything like that Says to the prisoners you gotta die and the son comes in Separate from the father.

What's the whole emphasis of John? What's the whole emphasis of the unity between the father and the son of these things?

There is the son doesn't come along going. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, let me do this Try and make things but there's no way to substantiate any of that in any meaningful reading in the

New Testament Why couldn't he have said to the people people? You can go free because if you sin that doesn't hurt me,

I don't want to hurt you. I'll let you go free Now it appears that Jesus has more compassion than what the father had

The father appears like a very stern judge. I remember of course Shabir is forced in a situation.

He cannot see the unity of the Godhead He cannot see the father and the son working in concert with one another

He can't see that. This is in fact the initial meaning of John chapter 10 I and the father are one one and what in bringing about the salvation of God's people his sheep

It's it's all right there and in front of him, but his Islamic blinders keep him from seeing these things

He's willing to demand blood But Jesus comes in as a loving caring individual

Willing to shed his own blood in order that the father should be happy and the people should go free

As a result of this imagery It is quite true If everyone would search their hearts that Christians love

Jesus More than they love the father And why should that be so in fact the

Bible throughout from beginning to end calls and people to love God Now again, he's functioning on the idea that in essence we are polytheists that that love toward the son is is love toward a different God than love toward the father and Though he knows he has often said there is no way to actually explain the

Trinity because he still labors under a certain preconception that in essence leads him to have to view the doctrine the

Trinity as a Polytheistic type of a concept and it just simply isn't that case now.

I'm gonna stop there for a moment I'm run out of time. I've been preaching a little bit too much. I want to get To some of the other objections that are raised.

We've we've heard this one Let's just jump ahead a little bit and see where we are. Is he being paid to the devil? Ah, yes, okay

How about the term ransom? What's how about? That let's let's listen to what he has to say

William Barclay in his daily Bible commentary on the gospel according to Mark William Barclay Lists a number of propositions that have been given by Christian scholars throughout history to this question

How is Jesus a ransom because think about this when you pay a ransom it is paid to someone

And usually it is the person who has held the captives hostage Now if Jesus is paid as a ransom

Who is he being paid to? Is he being paid to the devil?

Some of the Christian scholars actually said that initially they said the devil had held the people captive God wanted to free the people and so in order to free the people

God had to pay his son to the devil So that the devil the Shaitan could let the people go

But some later scholars said no that doesn't look very good because that would seem to indicate

That the devil has equal bargaining power with God I mean who is he to demand God's son before he lets the people go

And so they've come up with different reasons some some of them said well what God did was

God used his son as a trap So that when he was on the cross and the devil tried to catch the son

The devil got himself hooked on the cross and so all the people went free

Now I can even tell from looking rich In fact, it's funny Sunday morning in a church

One of my my friends made a comment on the fact that When you study church history you discover that some really wacky views of the atonement

Have been held by people who call themselves Christians down through the centuries, and if you're not aware of that Then you can hear these things and go what is this guy talking about?

He's just I mean if you pick up Burkhoff's history of systematic theology history the development of theology

What was what's it called the history of? That's in my library anyways pick that up Any work on the subject of just gives you an overview of what's been believed on certain topics look at subject atonement

Shabir Ali's not coming up with anything unusual here. There have been people who've believed a lot of weird things down through the history of the church and That's one of the reasons that I believe in Sola Scriptura because as I explained in the

Sunday school lesson on Sunday morning What is the touchstone what is the means by which you recognize?

What is and what is not a sound doctrine of atonement, but that which is found in Scripture? And why were there such weird views of atonement especially in the early churches through the

Middle Ages? Why did why did Rome allow such weird views to exist even within its own

Communion? Because the Old Testament had become a closed book Because of the division that took place between Jew and Gentile very very few in the early church knew any

Hebrew whatsoever the Old Testament became a book mainly of parables and What is the one

New Testament book that is the clearest and most concise and most direct and it's teaching about the subject?

Means and effect of the atonement the book of Hebrews, and what's the one book of the

New Testament? you can't make heads or tails out of if you don't know your Old Testament the book of Hebrews and So you've got a bunch of early church writers running around very few of them who knew

Greek and Hebrew a very few of them who actually knew Greek very well in many instances and They come up with some pretty wacky ideas

And that's why you don't invest them with any more authority than is logical to invest any

Writer at any period in the history of the church The only the only meaningful criteria you should use in examining a writer at any point in History is how close they are to what the

Apostles actually taught in Scripture Not some idea that well, you know maybe they had some insight

You know you look at Justin Martyr this guy has very little of the New Testament very little teaching to go with it all and So he makes some pretty egregious mistakes.

Yeah, but he's really early on so he was very close to the Apostles Yeah, well as we discussed last time, so, you know

Irenaeus was really close to the Apostles, too And he came up with some pretty wacky ideas and thought that those ideas came from the

Apostles. That's why you have Scripture That's why you have that which is God breathed not that which is

God muttered Okay, so that's why you then take these theories of atonement and you take them back to that Which is they are new stars and when you do that's when you discover

Well, but we'll be talking about the whole week on the ship is what the Bible teaches about the cross Well, this kind of explanation might be convincing to some but I bet for most of you

This is not a convincing explanation and after going through all of the various things that the Christian scholars have said over the ages

William Barclay a man who is a scholar himself Finally concludes in his daily Bible commentary that it is better not to think of this word ransom

Just think that it's an act of love Now I would love to you know, if this if he dares to quote

That in the in the debate I go, let me ask you something Would you call because he calls he calls this guy a

Christian scholar Would you dare to quote a Muslim scholar who says that the actual wording of the

Quran? Is best to be ignored and will come up with another meaning will come up with another word Would you call them a

Muslim scholar? Yes or no? most Muslims would not consider a person who would correct the reading of the

Quran to be a Muslim and Yet those who would say well, we shouldn't use the term ransom Those are

Christian scholars and we somehow should invest their opinions with with that moniker

But then if you don't want to think about it as a ransom Then you acknowledge that the way it is stated in the

Bible It's not a proper way of thinking About it and that shows a major problem

Once you start to say that Jesus died for the sins of the world you run into major problems because it is something

Which does not tie in with the rest of the scripture. And in fact, it is not reasonable at all other

Writers of the Bible have found other ways to try to explain this For example, we've already seen that according to the

Gospel of John It was said that Jesus is the Lamb of God now listen to this one this one

Let's see. Let's let's see if you all could come up with the answer to this one because it's not difficult I mean, this is this is not difficult put yourself in the situation.

You're sitting on an airplane You're talking to a Muslim who's been listening to Shabir Ali and this comes up. How would you respond who takes away the sin of the world?

But then look you still run into a problem If he's the Lamb of God that you must imagine the Lamb is being slaughtered and that one takes away the sin of the world

But then which really is the Lamb of God that does that? Muslims offer a sacrifice is that to take away the sins of the world or to take away anybody's sins

Christians Understand from the Old Testament that the Jews used to offer sacrifices every year.

They used to sacrifice a lamb We've already mentioned about the scapegoat Remember there were two goats One was killed and his blood was sprinkled on the altar

The other one had all the sins of the people put on the head of that goat and it was taken it was left to go

Out into the wilderness Taking away the sins of the people was that one killed No This one that took away the sins of the people wasn't slaughtered

Then if you say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, then he shouldn't be killed

Because the goat which took away the sins wasn't killed. It was just simply let loose alive into The wilderness they could try to say that he's okay.

So there's the objection. I Somebody in channel just said

He just called us stupid. I won't mention who that is because well anyway, but he's mighty but What how do you respond to that?

I? Mean for a lot of folks, let's face it sadly Some for so many Christians.

The Old Testament is such a closed book that they would be silenced by that They would they would be so afraid to go well

Isn't there a difference between a sheep and a goat But more they don't even know the difference

Between that offering the scapegoat offering and what Lamb of God is actually referring to because did you see how easily

Shabir slid? between sheep and goat and Did you notice that nothing was said at all?

whatsoever About the fact that the lamb that takes away sins of This lamb offering that's

Takes place a different time of year. That's called Passover and in fact that's when Jesus dies and the lamb was

Slain and remember what was done with the blood of the lamb in the Passover This is why we need to read our

Old Testament folks It's it's you know, Jesus said it was God speaking Paul says all scripture is the honor sauce.

Not just the red stuff. Not just the stuff the back of the book, you know, I Know but I can't make it through Leviticus.

Try Jesus quoted from it enough try you can do it. Yeah smack

What was done with the blood of the lamb at Passover? What was the mark that caused the death angel to pass over children of Israel you put it on the lintels and doorposts?

What's a lintel a doorpost? Well think about it think about what this picture was the doorposts are on the side the lintels above you put some blood over here

He put some blood over there. He put some blood up there. What does that form? Yeah, it forms across doesn't it and the angel of death

Passover passes over the house that only sees the blood of the lamb and Then the only thing left to say to Shabir is do you really think that any one picture?

Since these are just supposed to be shadows they're just types that any one is going to fulfill the fullness of the sacrifice of the

Messiah Of course not. So the lamb Takes away the world through sacrifice but the goat the scapegoat did was released and that pictures the taking away of sin and The fact that that took place outside of the camp

Where did Jesus go he goes outside of Jerusalem to Golgotha and Takes away the sins that people see each of the pictures can only give you a part because that's the nature of types and shadows and So it becomes real obvious that if you make one type and shadow supposed to be able to encompass the entirety of it

You're gonna miss it and then you also just made a real obvious mistake of going from sheep to goats

Just sort of sliding on there and you're going from Passover to Yom Kippur and stuff like that and the scapegoat and And the reason that we know that is because we read our

Old Testaments Yes, and that's what we're supposed to be doing the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world that does not solve the problem either

So the number of difficulties that we find with this whole concept that Jesus died for the sins of the world

Now we actually didn't find any problems once we allowed the New Testament to be the New Testament but that's what happens when you place those glasses on your face that absolutely force you to See things in a particular way one.

We see that It is unjust because you created penalizing an innocent person in order to let the guilty go free

To it doesn't look good for God because it makes God appear very cruel Sure, the son appears very loving.

He loves the people. He wants to die for them If you say that he is willing, but if he's willing if he loves the people and he wants to die for them

What about God himself? see Again, all

I have to do all I've got to do is Make sure that in that 25 minutes 25 minutes less time than your average sermon by by a good shot

Then that 25 minutes I make sure to emphasize the unity of the Godhead the fact that when you take the

New Testament as the New Testament is very very clear is the Father the Son the Spirit together in unity bring about this purpose of the redemptive work of Christ upon the cross of Calvary and That it is the

Father's love that is the fountainhead of the entirety of it that the son makes himself of no reputation he gives himself

Reflexive pronouns voluntary on his part. Just got to make sure to work it all in there somehow in the process of a very

Very brief amount of time instead of being loving is he cruel? So that's how it makes it look for God, that's the second problem

I can't tell you how many times I've heard Muslims use as an apologetic argument

That's how it makes things look. I mean the reason I find that So lacking in any weight as far as an argument is that it would be so easy

For me to use that kind of argumentation against Islam and I wouldn't do it because it's it's bad argumentation

I mean, there's so many things look at what the Quran says about Muhammad getting to have more wives than anybody else has and what the

Quran says about Disciplining your wife and striking her and and the hadith about Muhammad striking

Aisha and causing her pain I mean all this makes Muhammad look bad Well, they're gonna respond quite rightfully by contextualizing all of these things

Why don't they then use the same thing when they criticize Christianity?

Because evidently they don't have the same commitment to fairness in argumentation that our view of truth requires of us to have a third problem is that It makes it look as though God is powerless.

He has to give his son over to the devil He has to give up his son in order to get something and of course

What is the very focus of God's power in this world, what is the what is the and you know what?

He's right in one sense not in the ransom thing giving over Satan and all that silliness because that's not what the

New Testament teaches But isn't that exactly what Paul said? Doesn't the world consider the cross to be a sign of weakness?

Isn't that the whole scandal of the cross is that here you have God doing this and it is in gentleness and meekness that the power of God is demonstrated in the very defeat of the enemy of God himself and our enemy death the

Very redemptive work of Christ amazing stuff. And of course, we're going to be hearing all of this coming up on the 19th

Continue to pray for us. We'll continue with those those discussions on the program on Thursday We will have a dividing line on Thursday But let me remind everybody as I said the beginning program stay tuned after the end of the program

I'm going to have a little special treat for those of you who stay tuned and we'll make this will just continue recording by the

Way in there right after the program The the Milo, I'm sorry

Yes. Yes. Keep keep the whole thing on there We're gonna have the Milo and Claude Show for just a little bit after the programs are with so stay with us in just a few moments

We need Reformation The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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That's a o -m -i -n dot o -r -g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks

Join us again this Thursday afternoon at 4 p .m. For the dividing line All right for those of you who stuck around What have

I got for you? Well, I've got two songs for and they're both rather long I'm sorry

It's Milo and Clyde. They say Claude. Oh Sorry Hey free advertisements free advertisement if they even if they misspell your name

Okay, here's here's here's the the business Milo Hudson Bueller has sung a song that I this thing is eight minutes and 41 seconds long the other ones almost as long.

In fact, it may be even longer come name it a whole reason I want to do this is

This one song is one of my favorites from Milo, but then the one you play afterwards in his real life

Mr. Baumann, how's that that way? I avoid the whole issue Mr. Baumann teaches voice and of course has a very serious side to him as well and We finally were given an opportunity to get to hear that serious side so this is the same man in these two songs and I think it demonstrates quite a breadth of Quite a breath quite a breath.

Yes, but quite a breadth of Work to be able to not only sing pick up to lemon

Which especially if you live in North Dakota makes a whole lot more sense to you than does anywhere else in the world But also to sing the very classical number that you'll healer here right afterwards

So if you're recording or you're listening Here's here's a an ode

To Milo and his real persona. Mr. Baumann. Let's start with pick up to lemon

It's a school holiday And there's no class today.

So we're driving our pig up to lemon We should get there by 10 and at noon we're off again to the livestock sale out in McLaughlin Ooh Doopie doop doopie and we're driving our pig up to lemon

Now my Glock she says one but down here. It's only noon cuz you know

They are in the wrong time zone And the folks are just like us

They ride the big school bus and in the winter their cars all use

Presto Doopie doop doopie and we're driving our pig up to lemon

Across the border

All the tires all have air in the back There's a spare and my papa made sure that the oils changed

We brought something to drink and a road map

I think and it's winter so we brought a shuffle

When we cross the border

Hi, here comes the border

This time we had to make a quick stop at the rest stop

Cuz Papa drank too much coffee But we left early so even if there is a headwind

There's still time to fill the gas tank Ooh there goes the border

It looks the same We're in South Dakota Things sure are different in South Dakota than North Dakota No, yeah, they're not the same as at home

Oh One thing that's different in South Dakota than North Dakota There's lots of other state license

And we're driving our pig up to Lemon Play us close

Lots of Snorkel Almost Stumbling on To Home Watch the stream

Of Shadows Late No end

Just a living, with a smile, going on and on.

Oh, just go, it's not far, as far as you go.