Shabir Ally's Objections to the Atonement

The Program’s Purpose and Upcoming Debate with Shabir Ali

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning last week of dividing lines before next week. Where there won't be dividing lines because we won't be here a week from this morning I intend to be rising.

I don't know where in the world will be. I really haven't looked at the route. I know we're going to two cities and I've been told that one of the cities is just Beautiful and gorgeous and I'm sure I'll get a good look at it from my balcony.

Unlike other people who get off the boat and go look at things I just prefer staying where I am, especially since this is my favorite ship so we're gonna be there next week and the class will have started by now and we'll be well into things and moving toward the debate with Shabir Ali on the 19th Friday night the 19th.

I know there are many of you in Seattle who are just waiting to get your tickets. Don't do that. Get them now folks. We need to know who's coming and need to make sure you can you can get in so you need to be doing that and of course I need everybody to be praying for next week.

We Obviously our long-term goal is to produce an entire body of apologetic material primarily in the form of debates, but also written materials that.

Will.

Benefit believers here in the United States will benefit. Believers overseas will benefit the persecuted church. And not just now but long after we ain't around anymore because we are addressing topics that do not change.

With time we are addressing the subject of the crucifixion of Christ and the Islamic rejection thereof and so we would Covet your prayers that that is exactly what we will be doing. And helping to produce this this coming week.

So next week no dividing lines at all. Second announcement before we get back to. Specifically the topic of Shabir Ali's teachings on this subject. Second topic is stick around After we go off the air today.

Hopefully someone on the other side of the glass is listening now because I haven't mentioned this to him. Stick around after we go off the air today because Even though we'll do it in the regular time frame and you'll hear the normal.

Stuff.

Instead of the feed going dead afterwards We're going to do two things for those of you who are listening now and remember to do this. Specifically this coming Christmas. There's going to be a new Christmas CD coming out from Milo Hotzenbuehler.

Now Milo Hotzenbuehler is just the biggest star we've ever had on the program. Sorry Steve and Milo's putting out a Christmas CD and Milo has a close friend named Clyde Valman and In fact, some people think that Milo is a most multiple personality disorder Manifestation of Clyde Valman, but I don't I don't that's a theory that I've heard, but I don't really you know buy into that and.

So what we're gonna do right after the program today, and I'll try to remind you as we're going off the air right after program I'm gonna play two songs for you. You get to hear two special songs and one will Demonstrate the the genius and it is genius.

It truly is if you've ever tried to sit down and Write parody music and perform it. Well have it make sense especially that is primarily focused on North Dakota. That really limits your range of possibilities it takes genius.

So we're gonna play a song that illustrates the genius of Milo Hotzenbuehler, but then right afterwards Right after that for those of you who know what in the world's going on We will play a song demonstrating that that his friend Clyde Valman.

Have you heard the Clyde Valman? I bet you didn't you haven't heard this yet. Have you the Clyde Valman is able to to sing a song to? And in fact, of course, they're actually the same person.

But anyway.

That'll be right after the program today. Rich is shaking his head in the other room. He has no idea what's going on. You will enjoy this immensely. Trust me you you really all I know is I just don't turn nothing off and you I just I just go from there.

That's right. So it will it will all it will all work out. So keep that in mind. I hope I keep that in mind because tradition is tradition and and You know once that that music stops at the it starts at the end my brain just goes into auto shutdown.

So we'll hopefully remember that now. What objections? Should we expect to hear? In the opening presentation by Shabir Ali on Friday night, October 19th. I hope Shabir is listening. I hope Shabir recognizes that we play his comments on this program and we don't have to cut things up.

We don't have to cut things out. We are are open to allowing all these things to to take place and give an honest and hopefully compelling response and so what Objections, would you expect to hear next week if you're going to be going up there and I encourage you to be there in person.

Watching DVDs is great. Listening to mp3s is great. But the folks who are there who get to experience the pre-debate discussions and buzz and so on so forth. They're the ones that remember these things the longest I think and so I would really really really really encourage you To to be there if you can at all make arrangements to do so.

Well, I think we know because a number of years ago a debate was set up. I believe it was in Toronto and The Christian that Shabir Ali was supposed to be debating was delayed at the airport. Yeah, which can always happen and We certainly hope that that doesn't happen in this situation.

It's sort of hard for me coming into Seattle the port of Seattle on a ship to be delayed. But hey, you know, you never know we hope none of that takes place and So Shabir went ahead with his opening presentation.

Shabir Ali’s Claim That the Synoptic Gospels Present an Unwilling Jesus

Did Jesus Christ die for the sins of the world and Here is I think where you really get, you know The the essence of the argumentation and I believe that we will hear pretty much the same thing now. Why do I say pretty much the same thing?

Well, there's only so many things that a Muslim can say in the 2004 debate Shabir Ali was very clear and stating. Hey, I recognize I'm a Muslim I but by the fact that I've been raised as a Muslim I Don't appreciate the necessity for the resurrection because I don't appreciate the necessity for the cross because of What's surah 4 1 2 7 says and and Shabir is a scholar of the Quran.

He he knows all the different.

You know.

Understandings and and he he spent much of his time in that 2004 debate actually talking about chronic Interpretation in his opening statement and the various ways which surah 4 1 57 can be understood.

So I'm sure that's gonna come up and I'm sure we're gonna have some good cross-examination on that. I spent about An hour and a half last night with my Arabic tutor doing nothing but working through every single aspect every single word of surah 4 1 57 and.

So I'm sure that's gonna come up and we're gonna have a just have a discussion about it.

But.

Likewise what he says in the presentation. We're gonna listen to parts of today Is very very very similar to that of his mentor Jamal Badawi and so there is a I think a pretty much a range of meaningful criticism that a Muslim is sort of limited to as Far as what can be said in response to the Christian claim that Jesus Christ Willingly gave himself as a sacrifice for God's people now.

I can't tell you which Area is going to predominate in the debate. It could be theological. It could be historical. It could be both. They could be even it could be. 90 10 I don't know no way of knowing till we get into it.

I can sort of tell you where what my opening statement is gonna emphasize. Emphasize. I'm gonna try to cover all of it as best I can.

But.

Obviously once you get into especially into rebuttal and cross-examination There tends to be one of the two Elements that's going to predominate over the other that's and which it's gonna be don't know.

You know, I can't can't mind read can't can't see the future. So Let's listen to what should be Raleigh said about these are common objections. This is from the Islamic mindset. This is where I think a lot of Christians fall down.

They've never spoken to a Muslim and therefore when they hear the objections the objections. Since they're new Don't seem sort of like well, that's silly. Well, that's silly is not a response. If you've never heard it before sometimes it takes a while to formulate a response.

So it's important to hear it and to understand. So let's let's sort of dive in. This is in the second portion. By the way, if you want to watch this you can actually watch this on YouTube. That's where I grabbed it from grabbed the audio from anyways this is from a Series did Jesus die for the sins of the world.

Why the Synoptic Passion Narratives Are Not Evidence of Cowardice

Jesus was not willing to die on the cross. According to Matthew according to Mark according to Luke He was begging God up until the very last moment to save him from the cross. It is said that the night before he was arrested to be put on the cross Jesus was praying.

He was praying. He was asking God God if it'd be possible. Let this cup pass away from me. Yet not what I will but what you will. In other words according to this Jesus didn't want to go ahead. With this he can see that death awaits him.

He knows that they will come at any moment and try to arrest him and crucify him and he doesn't want this to happen. He's asking God to come up with something else. Let there be some other way of dealing with this.

But let Jesus not have to go through with this according to one of these Gospels the gospel. According to Luke an Angel came down from heaven. Actually two angels to strengthen him. Perhaps to give him more resolve.

But even after that it says in the gospel of Luke that his sweat Were like great drops of blood. So much. He was in agony over what awaited. He didn't want to go through with it according to Matthew Mark and Luke.

So much so that according to Matthew and Mark two of these Gospels even after Jesus was put on the cross. When he was about to die He finally said my God my God. Why have you forsaken me? And it shows that right up to the very end.

He didn't want to go through with it. He was not a willing participant in this scheme.

So this is something that I've heard him repeat in a number of different context. Is that the synoptic Gospels present an unwilling? Jesus. And of course you can likewise.

Hear.

Similar echoes. From a couple years ago in the debate with John Dominic Crossan when he tries to present The the Mark and Jesus is out of control. But the Oh honey in Jesus is very much in control and so this is evidence of development and Shabir accepts all of this he accepts all of the Non-documented since there are no documents to demonstrate this process of redaction editing over time.

Non-documented theoretical and there's the exact same kind of theoretical Non-documented well actually a little bit more documented. I must admit There's there's actually more documentation of this and there is anything that he says about the New Testament redaction of the of the Quran for example.

The second surah we know historically circulated separately from the Quran for at least a period of time early on. And we know from from the Islamic tradition itself that there was a there was a committee in essence Assigned by Uthman to gather these things together and some of the ayahs were only found memory of one person it's all sorts of stuff like this that's that you can get into that I doubt that he accepts in regards to the the Construction of the Quran over time, but anyway, he accepts all the stuff in regards to New Testament and Any differences between the Gospels are to be explained a naturalistic principles.

Even though the Quran says revelation was received it was given to Jesus and so on so forth and that was going on at the time. Still you know Paul's the one who did all these things and we'll be talking about this in in the opening statement.

But but the idea is the synoptics presented unwilling Jesus. And so though you have mark for example in Mark chapter 14 Verse 21 saying for the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of Man has betrayed it would have been good for that man If he had not been born.

Well, that sounds a little bit like someone who who knows what's going to be happening. Then he establishes the Lord's Supper. He talks about the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. It seems to me like He's well aware of not only what's coming.

But he goes toward it and and does he not say it is necessary with the Son of Man to go to Jerusalem be betrayed in Matthew 16. Again, when he announces this Peter says may it never be far be it from you.

He rebukes him you're thinking the thoughts of men not of God and. Then there's even the prophecy of his resurrection in Mark 14 27. You all fall away because it's written I will strike down the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered but after I have been raised I will go ahead of you to Galilee and I Don't know.

It just seems pretty hard to come up with this idea. And you know, you really have to put Jesus down a good bit to say this. I mean there have been many a brave soldier who knowing that he was facing imminent death the next day Does not sweat drops of blood.

You see once you remove the redemptive element from Jesus's own self-consciousness. You now have someone who is quite cowardly. You have someone who it does not even come close to the level of bravery that you would find in pagans you would you would find in in the men from Sparta to use a one that would be familiar to a lot of people now that wouldn't have been about you know a year ago, but You you look at that men who have who have gone to their deaths quite bravely.

Unlike Jesus. In fact, I have heard very very offensive. In fact, we may have played or skipped it I don't remember whether or not but played a a Muslim apologist and I will not hold Shabir Ali accountable for men like this but Muslim apologist from the the greatest single concentration of theological idiocy and ignorance on the internet called a pal talk a debate took place there where a Islamic apologist really Insulted Christ on this very basis that he was in essence cowardly that he in essence was was afraid of his own death.

And that's not what's going on here. Is it not when you allow the New Testament to speak for itself? When you allow the New Testament speak for itself Jesus is Jesus's Prayer to the father is not about his own death.

It's not about his own physical suffering. But you see to admit that what he's talking about here is that great transaction where Jesus Christ? Willingly gives himself and becomes the object of the wrath of God in the place of his elect people.

Well that has to be rejected because Paul came up with all that allegedly even though it was preached long before Paul came along but hey Paul came up with all that and We reject that on the basis of 35 words in the Quran.

That's it. Not ever commented on by Muhammad or by almost two centuries worth of Muslim scholars after that, but hey there there's our basis for rejecting all the historical data and all the New Testament writers and and all the rest that stuff is 35 Arabic words in surah 4 157 and.

So.

You have to present Jesus as as basically be being far less than a than a meaningful Prophet. In fact, it's interesting in that same surah just above that it is admitted that the Jews had killed the prophets and Yet somehow it said that they did not kill this one.

Razzle. Who is who is Jesus, but it was made to appear to them? Well, we will talk about a lot of that, but here's what you have and obviously it is Really easy to demonstrate that Matthew Mark and Luke do present Jesus as a knowing willing participant One who indeed is giving himself in behalf of the world.

And of course, we will make reference to that in our opening statement. And if that is not challenged, then it will stand as a given fact. If it is challenged Then I'd say be very easily defensible. So this presents a problem.

If God is determining to let the innocent people go free and he's crucifying Jesus instead. It would have helped matters if Jesus was willing. The fact that Jesus is not willing makes it look very bad on God.

How. Because. You have to imagine the scenario. It is as though God has before him a bunch of criminals. God is like a judge having the criminals and the judge says to the criminals criminals. I love you go free.

But he says. Somebody has to die because that's the law for the criminals to go free. Somebody has to pay the price. So who's going to pay the price. Guards bring my son? And then the guards come in bringing the son and the son Comes down on his knees and he says father, please is there no other way?

Please father. I think of something fast. Let it not happen like this. I'll go along with what you say father, but please. Isn't there some other way.

They see what happens when you cut the New Testament into little pieces and ignore everything that Jesus said, you know. Anything that goes against your theory. You you you kick that out and then you accept what goes with your theory and then you can make Jesus say anything.

You are there's no son. And by the way, if I ever did this like to Muhammad. Yeah, I mean it's it you can do this to anybody. It'd be so easy to say. Well, you know what? My theory is That all of the Medina and surahs are our later editions of a rising political power.

Which by the way, you could make a pretty strong case for and so I'm only gonna accept the Meccan surahs which is where you have the peace and and love and joy and happiness and Accept the the persecuted religious minority and all the rest that stuff.

And so I could turn Muhammad's message on its head that way by chopping up the Quran and exactly how many Muslims would accept that. Well, okay. So why should we accept chopping up a New Testament with even less? evidence.

Behind so doing sorry, you better die. That's the law Criminals. I love you. Go free. You see it doesn't look very good on God if Jesus is not a willing Participant in this scheme by which God wants to forgive the people.

And so the fourth gospel the one which was last to be written sensed this problem and tried to deal with this particular problem. He must realize that the Gospels initially when they were written were written as separate individual Documents and it were circulated in different lands.

Eventually people thought it Better to compile all of these Gospels into one single book and so they compiled them. Collected them from various regions compiled them into one single book, but prior to that they were circulated individually.

So those who read Mark's gospel did not know what was in Matthew's gospel. And those who read Luke did not know what is going to be in John. So finally when John is writing his gospel There's about now 70 years after Jesus had already been taken up into heaven.

Notice he's putting this around AD 100. Put it as far down there as possible. And he's already mentioned, you know, we John we don't really know who John was and certainly was an eyewitness and things like that.

So you again, you know.

If.

Most of Shabir's listeners were to listen to a modern orientalist saying the same things about the Quran. Wow, there would be tremendous emotion involved.

But this is just you know, the standard presentation John wants to make sure that he gets over this problem. It should not appear in John's gospel as though Jesus is not willing to go ahead with it because this makes him look very much Like a human being and it makes it look very bad on God that God has this unwilling Participant in this whole scheme.

So according to John's gospel then Jesus was quite willing That from the very start Jesus already knew he was the Lamb of God who came to die for the sins of the world. From the very start it is said in John's gospel that Yahya or John the Baptist Already declared that this is the Lamb of God who came to die for the sins of the world.

So Jesus must have known it and everybody must have known it right from the very start. According to this gospel then Jesus declares that he is willing to go ahead and die for the sins of the world. He said for example in this gospel that I am the shepherd.

By the way, just keep something in mind. I found this and again Lord willing it will come up. On the 19th, I've found it fascinating that from again, it's it's this is the the anachronism forced upon the Muslim reader they have to assume that their controversial issues were the controversial issues of the first century and.

So they have to assume that there was controversy over Jesus dying upon a cross. There wasn't any the only people who had a problem with Jesus dying on the cross were that were the were the Gnostics who were Gnositis who Denied Jesus had a physical body and they're not really relevant.

Especially in a Muslim Christian argument. I mean as soon as a Muslim starts using the Gnostics. You know that the arguments lost when you have to borrow somebody who isn't even a monotheist. Who doesn't even believe that God created all things or even could ever create all things?

When you when you guys start borrowing those folks come up with your arguments. You got a real problem on your hands. And so that wasn't you know, you're gonna hear at one point. Well, maybe not in this one.

It might be in the in the Regent University debate where where he says, you know, John adds the spear thrust and Jesus aside as a means to try to Combat Gnosticism and the breaking of the legs again was just simply a means of trying to prove that Jesus died.

That wasn't the argument. You've got to be able to demonstrate that was an argument and that it was a concern for the early church at this point at that early point in time. For that to be a meaningful argument, but they never try to do that because they're just reading this into the history again.

Forced upon them by 35 words in Arabic written 600 years down the road who dies for his sheep.

He says nobody can take my life away from me because I've been given authority to lay down my life. And I've been given authority to take it back up again. In this last gospel Jesus appears much more powerful than he used to appear.

He's no longer The weak human being that was praying to God asking God to take this cup away from me. Now. He's a powerful individual. He's almost like a divine being walking the surface of the earth or perhaps even floating above the surface of the earth.

Has opened my mouth. I sound really good professional Guy here on the earth. I the reason I was doing that is I just could not help but remember Two years ago as I was writing my notes when when was that within November?

No, the cross and debate. It was in November. Where did we go I Know but where did we sail do we go out of Vancouver in the winter in November? That doesn't make any sense to me August okay. That's. Yeah, that's what that's what I was thinking.

That's what I was it was the week before Katrina happened you guys were on. Ah, that's right. That's right. That's right on the cruise when Katrina. That's right. Oh Yeah, that's good. Could have been November because an Alaska cruise in November would have to be on an icebreaker.

We wouldn't have to go see the the ice flows they'd be chasing us around but anyway. Yeah, as I was writing the notes for that two years ago there was this statement from Crossin and I had to Wrestle with whether I was going to include it or not and in fact when it did come up during the debate I had to present it very very carefully think I played on the air here though where when he talks about John's Presentation of Jesus on the cross.

He says it's so unrealistic and Jesus is so powerful. And he's so much in control that you'd almost think that from the cross Jesus is looking out and going. Hey, you can see Bethsaida from here. Just just no pain.

No suffering blah blah blah blah blah well here. You're hearing this reflected in an Islamic presentation, so where are these folks borrowing from. I keep telling you I mean their favorite person these days is named Bart Ehrman and so when a Religion has to borrow the unbelieving world to make its arguments.

That's a that's a big indication. That's one of the things I have said. And I keep saying it over and over again. We need to develop. And continue let me change the way I put this we need to continue to develop a consistently Christian response to Islam in other words We can't fall for the temptation to buy the same kind of Naturalistic response to Islam that they use to respond to Christianity.

Does that mean it's gonna be harder for us. Yes service to the truth is always harder than pragmatism. Always is but that's what you've got to do if you're really gonna honor the truth.

And so he does not pray here to be saved from the cross. But rather he makes it quite clear that he's going willingly and he says nobody can take my life away from me. I've been given authority to lay down my life.

And I've been given authority to take it back up again as if he's going to be resurrected. By his own might by his own power eventually. Eventually when he's to be arrested According to this gospel he comes out and powerfully gives himself up to be arrested.

So that when he finally is put on the cross. And he's about to die. And you remember what he said according to some other Gospels. He said my God my God why have you forsaken me? But in this gospel he doesn't say any such thing because that would make him appear weak would make him appear unwilling.

Now I'm gonna make this point in the debate, and I'm gonna use the Quran to do it. But I so I won't mention exactly how I'm gonna do that right now, but Here's a good reason.

Why?

The phone call we got a few weeks ago is relevant because remember we got a phone call a few weeks ago about this very.

Text.

And.

What is going on when Jesus says Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani? And I have. I'm in print in my book on the Trinity in asserting That whatever you do at this text you have to first and foremost recognize that this is the same thing as a Christian today saying something along the lines of Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

Why?

Well because that is a part of our hymnology. That is a part of the common possession of Christian people. What we have in hymns music We all know sticks in the mind whether it's good or bad. Which might be a good reason to you know be careful what you listen to but it sticks in the mind.

It is memorized far more easily than anything else is. And Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani is the beginning of the 22nd Psalm. And the 22nd Psalm is a Messianic Psalm. It is a psalm filled with passages that are fulfilled in Christ.

And not only is his crucifixion pictured there, but so is his ultimate victory.

And.

So whatever else you do with it however else you much you want to read into it You've got to start with the recognition that if you put a Christian in the context Christ is in fighting for breath and They start off with the first line of it is well with my soul or amazing grace Whatever else might be they're calling to mind the entirety of that song and this was Hymn number 22 in the Jewish hymn book, okay, and if you ignore that You're gonna be missing the whole point of the citation.

So to read this in such a way as if Jesus is saying no this is not Appropriate this is this is I don't want to be going through with this and and all the rest that stuff is to completely miss the the context of Jesus's words and of course it does require you to ignore everything else the Jesus says father into thy hands I commit my spirit and and You know all the rest that stuff, but that's that's what's going on.

And he would make him appear as though he was forsaken that he was hoping for something else. Than what eventually happened. So according to this gospel. He doesn't say my God my God Why have you forsaken me instead?

He says it is finished. And then he finally dies as though you have here a picture of a man who was trying to accomplish something. And then finally when it is accomplished.

He says it is finished. Now just for a moment go back to just the one text I read from mark 14. It is necessary the Son of Man goes it is be fulfilled. But blah blah blah, and if you take just that one section Would not it is finished fit with that?

Absolutely perfectly. No need for all these theories. No need to in essence accuse Matthew Mark Luke and John of lying. No need to accuse Jesus of cowardice. No need to to in essence then say Paul is the the one who did all this stuff and Blame him for all these things.

No need for any of that stuff. So why does Shabir Ali do it. Because of 35 words written 600 years later.

And then he lets his soul go out. And so he actually came into the world. Specifically for this to die for the sins of the world that today. Isn't that what Matthew says in Matthew?

121 in one of the texts that he says actually says that Jesus didn't want to do this. Isn't it Matthew who announces he shall save his people from their sins as part of the birth narrative. Well you see these kinds of theories just don't allow you to take the whole text.

So you gotta cut those parts out and say well. I found a scholar someplace. It doesn't believe that's original well. You know what you can find a scholar any place that believes anything. That's really when many in fact.

It's interesting yesterday I was while I was writing I was listening to this again, and I and I I remember in the debate with Mike like Kona like Kona had mentioned something that James DG Dunn had said said.

And I had to chuckle as I listened to Shabir saying well. He's just one scholar. That's just one guess and I think back to our Biola debate where he actually makes the assertion that Thomas is earlier than Mark and the one scholar he gives is the liberal female scholar at Boston College as the that's the source of this over against the vast majority of everybody else and.

That's in that sense in that context well scholars have said. Or a scholar has said actually well a liberal female at Boston College has said well again. It's so easy to find anybody who said anything on that level today.

That anybody who just simply uses the term scholar. Without a giving the source and then be making some attempt to substantiate the reasoning of the scholar. It's just not a meaningful argument. Christians read the Bible.

They remember Jesus as the willing participant as the one who deliberately came into the world to die for the sins of the world. They do not remember that he was an unwilling participant according to the other three Gospels.

You see the story has been reworked in order to make Jesus appear a little differently than he appeared in the other Three Gospels, so now he appears willing and he goes through with this whole scheme.

If he appears willing well, then this makes it look a little bit better on God. See that's how the story has been revised now if Jesus appears willing then we can have a different scenario. We no longer have this scenario of the judge who wants to let the criminals go free.

And he says bring my son and the son comes in weeping crying and praying. Now you have a situation where the judge is willing to let the criminals Die and he says criminals you got to die. That's the rule, but the son comes in and says father I Have pity on these people let them go and I will die in their stead.

And this is the image that many of the preachers and evangelists really love. They love this image because it makes better For an image of God and of Jesus. So now God all only has to say okay criminals you go free because somebody else has offered to die in your place.

And God then perhaps is not so happy crucifying his son, but because the son has offered God goes ahead and lets it happen that way now this makes it look better for God according to this revised story.

However, this does not free the story of all of its problems. Because once you say that Jesus died for the sins of the world even if he said it this way you still have a major difficulty and the difficulty has been this if Jesus and whom be peace can come in and Have compassion for the people and he can say father let them go because I feel sorry for them.