Matt Slick Live: January 3, 2025

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live!

For answers, take in your calls and respond to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Opening the Show and Taking Calls

Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, Mr. Matt Slick Live! Today's date is January 3rd, 2025, well that sounds weird saying that, I hope I said it right yesterday. And so if you want to give me a call, as usual, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276, you can also email me info at karm .org, info at karm, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, and you can put the subject line, radio comment, radio question, and we can get to stuff that way.

And sometimes what we'll do is go and answer various questions, various issues, during the down time, which usually happens around the end of the year, the beginning of the.

Year.

And so like I said, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276, I want to hear from you, give me a call, okay, we can talk. I think we got a caller coming in, and again I want to thank everybody for their donations last month, we're going to be getting a rough number, I'm not going to be saying it over the air, but we are just very thankful for those who have donated, I'll be making calls and just saying thanks to people.

So I can't make all the calls because there's a lot of people who helped out, but we try and just show our appreciation to various people. Alright, how about that, I'm going to look into some emails here in a little bit, we got a caller coming in, radio questions, radio comments.

Now what I hope to be able to do tonight is go on Discord, and in a certain server, open a room, Matt Slick Q &A, and we did it a few days ago and it turned out pretty nicely, so hopefully we can do the same thing tonight and get in, and I like to do questions and answers and discussions, and yesterday I had a long discussion with a guy who said that if you sin once willfully after you've become a Christian, you can never become a Christian again, you lose your salvation, and we battled that for about an hour, it was interesting, and I like doing that because I always learn things, you know, during this discussion, during things like that, and it was an interesting discussion, the guy, he didn't know how to actually read scripture, he was really bad at it, but you know, that's how it happens, and like I said, I enjoy that back and forth, the verbal fencing, because it helps keep me sharp, it helps me learn new stuff, so that I can deliver to you quickly and easily and succinctly, how about that, let's get to Gene from New Orleans, Gene, welcome, you're.

On the air.

Tithes, Offerings, and Elder-Led Church Finances

Gene Smith Matt, this is concerning, tithes and offerings, and let's say a man feels called to preach, and he opens up him a place, and mainly starts out with family, whatever, can you tell me scripturally exactly where the tithes and offerings should go?

Well there's a should, but we're not under the law in that we are obligated to tithe in order to please God and please people, we're free to be able to tithe and support churches and various ministries, so you'll see that in the New Testament that tithes were given, and it was a continuation of the Jewish ideology as they became Christians, they would continue to give, and so that was the Old Testament law, but we're not under that law anymore.

So if I was a preacher in a church.

I understand that part, but I'm just saying, even if we give not tithes, but just give to the church, what is the pastor scripturally supposed to do with the money that comes in in any form?

Well it depends what the elders and what the church would agree with, there's different ways of arranging that.

And do you have to set up a group of elders? I guess that's basically what I'm asking, do you have to have a group of elders? If not, does the pastor do that by himself? You got to feel good that when you give your money to a church that is, naturally I understand you have bills, you have church payments, you have to support the pastor, but anything over that, what's to be done with any monies that come into the church?

If you have a scripture that would actually tell you?

Well there is no scripture that says how to divvy it up, okay, there's just nothing like.

That.

So what happens is, when a church is starting, a pastor is starting, or whatever you want to call it, and the money is coming in, he and the elders, if he has elders, decide how it's going to be divvied up, how it's going to be divided and what the needs are.

And that's what you should do.

Well the reason I'm asking, this is years past that we came into a church and had started up with, somehow or another it worked around after he died, that it all went to the children. So that's my question there, because I would want anything I give to go to the church finances, but I also would want any access to go to missions or such as that.

I feel like that we should be taking what money we give to just anything that would be a missionary type thing, and not end up going to the family, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Even though, if you've had a good relationship...

Let me jump in, let me jump in, let me jump in, okay. So it depends on what the church, the elders decide to do with it. So you can say as a congregation member, you prefer this or that. And it's up to you to decide if you want to support what they're already doing.

Because Presbyterianism is the biblical model. That's elder led, elder rule. That's what Presbyterus means, elder, Presbyterian is elder rule. So when the elders decide what to do with it, they can inform the church, and the church can agree, disagree with the elders, but the elders are still the ones who are ultimately in charge.

And so if they have an agreement that they'll take care of the family, because he needs.

To eat.

And if the family members depend on him and he dies, then the elders can say, well, I'm sorry, you know, wife and children, you're all on your own, we're going to give it to missions. And then they're just out of luck.

You can do that if you want. But the idea of the eldership...

It's still not quite the point I'm making, I'm just saying, could an individual man just take up all the monies and not support missions, just taking all the monies, I guess is where I'm coming from.

It depends on what the elders agree to.

If there are no elders, if there are no elders.

Then if there's no elders, you have a problem, because there should be elders in the church. If it's a new church, and there's not an elder yet, and the pastor's there, then he needs to have people he discusses things with about that issue, so that it's agreed upon.

Well, I just didn't know if you had a scripture that you could actually go to. I think, I believe I did hear someone reading it from the Old Testament, that it was naturally to support the pastors, but it goes to the orphans and widows, the excess, I suppose.

Because I fully agree that the pastor's family is to be taken care of completely, bills are to be paid, church properties to be paid for. If there never are any elders, then it just all goes to the pastor, automatically.

I already told you, I already said, if there's no elders, the pastor needs to talk to people in the congregation, it needs to be arranged. We need to have elders in the church, that's one of the things that's needed.

It's Presbyterian, elder run, if there's only one elder, then he needs to not be the one solely in control of monies and things like that, it's just an issue of ethics and accountability, so he should talk to somebody in the church, have two or three people that he would talk to and there's an agreement and the congregation knows that this is occurring, that's all.

And then you get an elder later and then it works into that. Okay?

Okay.

All right. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Okay.

All right, hey folks, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276. Now, one of the comments, most churches, this one person attends, had a constitution that pastor had no say in the finances.

Well here's a question about that, is that biblical? So let's just look at eldership a little bit. So if we go to, for example, 1 Timothy 5 .17, I think it is, it says, the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching, for the scripture says, you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing the labor is worthy of his wages.

So there's, we can make the case that the elders would be paid out of the monies that come into the church so that he can take care of his needs and be responsible to take care of his family. This is, this was necessary.

And if the church doesn't want to do that, he has to agree to that and work another job in order to be in that arrangement. So is a constitution in the church the biblical pattern? And it's not. It's not the biblical pattern.

Now does it mean you can't do it? I don't think you can't do it, I'm just saying the elders are the ones who rule. And so then you get to ask the question, can you have elders and a constitution at the same time?

Well it would depend. Because the biblical model is to appoint elders in the church and the elders who rule in that church. That's the model that it was. That's how it's supposed to be in 1st Timothy 5, 17 and 18.

So if there was a church, for example, and I was attending the church and they had elders, but the elders didn't do any ruling, they just kind of recommended a couple of things to the pastor and there was no ruling capacity in the congregation, above the congregation and what goes on as a whole, then that wouldn't be biblical because it says the elders who rule well.

And it also says in 1st Timothy 3, it says an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, that's presbutor, I mean, that's episkopos, and that's what that is. Now we get that bishop from there.

Deacons must be likewise men of dignity, and it says men. So we have that and that they are to be able to take care of their own household and know the Christian faith. When you go to Titus 1, Paul says, for this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city, a man who's above reproach, the husband of one wife, children, etc.

For the overseer, that's the word episkopos again, which is we get bishop. It says so it looks like the overseer and the elder are one and the same, looks like.

It.

We can talk about that. He must be above reproach as God's steward, not self -willed. So as God's steward. So what the elders are doing is they are running the necessities of the church, they are in contact with those monies, and they need to be good stewards of what God is providing in that church.

And so the elders are the ones who are supposed to kind of work with all this kind of stuff. If the elders set up a constitution in the church, then that's within the eldership's purview to do that. And then that would be admissible as long as the elders were the ones who do that.

I know that a lot of people don't like the idea of eldership rule. Well, then take it up with the pastoral epistles, how Paul the Apostle set it up. That's what I would say on that. It's worth examining.

So let's see, what time is it?

I've got a break coming in here pretty quickly. So yeah.

Okay, we've got Adrienne's got a good question. I'll tell you what, let's just, let's just, yeah, no, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. We've got a break coming up in a little bit here.

There it is.

So we'll get back to the caller, Adrienne from Greensboro. And then if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

Be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Church Property, Pastor Compensation, and Accountability

All right, and welcome back to the show. Just want to let you know that we have the show broadcast on YouTube and Facebook and Twitter. I think I put a Twitter thing in. I don't know if I did that. No, I didn't do that today.

And Rumble. And in the Rumble thing, we're chatting. And someone said during the break that he needs a sled dog in the next few days because they're getting a lot of snow. And I said, I just wrote in there, well, you know, they have special Chihuahua sled dogs.

You can just get about 30 of them. So we're having fun in there. All right, let's get, let's get on with Adrienne from Greensboro. Welcome, Adrienne. You're on the air.

Thank you. Happy New Year to you and yours and to all. Thank you. Okay, now a question. Thank you, sir. At church, the pastor has asked the parishioners to make donations to the paying off the church.

Now, not everybody knows it, but I do know that the pastor owns, owns the property and the building that's on it. And is that ethical?

No.

Because I personally do not feel compelled.

Right. So what?

Yeah, I'm with you. I would say get another church and their elders at another church to discuss the issue because he's involved with them. Benefit. He's benefiting personally from the church, not just in tithing to keep him going and feed his family, which is OK.

But now the property he owns that he will have increasing value from if he gets others to pay for it. So that's that's a problem. And, you know, I would have a I'd have a difficulty with that one as well.

So I would have the elders of the church get involved and or the elders of another church to get involved to look through it. He needs to submit to that.

OK.

Right.

And there are no elders.

There are no elders. Well, then there's a problem. Then you have to get elders from another church involved to discuss it.

Thank you, sir. All right, dear. Well, thank you, sir. God bless you all. Take care. Appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

God bless. All right.

All right.

Whoo.

Next longest waiting is Scott from Utah or some call it Utah. Welcome. You're on the air.

Thanks for taking my call. I was just kind of one to dovetail off what she was asking.

Sure.

When when considering a pastor's salary and stuff, at least in our church, they I don't think people quite understand the tax benefits and they get from like every year. We vote to allow them to write off 100 percent of their housing expenses.

That is all paid by the church. I mean, their housing costs are paid by the church. My question basically is, should all that be figured in a salary? I mean, again, some people think that pastors like our pastor isn't well taken care of.

But if you if you figure in all the stuff that he virtually pays no taxes and then because he's able to write off everything. And then on top of the salary, on top of his housing paid for top of a gas card, everything, you know, I was wondering what your thoughts on on a pastor's salary and where it should go.

So it doesn't end up like, you know, these prosperity preachers, you know, getting out of hand.

Yes, that's a very serious issue to discuss. And the pastor should be able and willing to give an accounting of of where the money of the church is going to. And the elders of the church need to be involved.

And like I said, the previous caller, if there's no elders in that church, then an elder elders of another church need to be involved. And so it's OK to to do various things for the benefit of the pastor.

It's OK to do that. Let me let me read something here. And I want you to set a scripture. I want you to think in the terms of money, OK? Because it says the labor is worthy of his wages. Now, this is what this is.

I already read it today. Here goes again. The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the scripture says you shall not muzzle the ox while he's threshing.

The labor is worthy of his hire. What? So I remember reading about this or having someone comment, said they could make the case from that pericope that the pastor gets paid more than the average person.

They could make the case. I'm not saying it is true. I'm just saying it because it says in there the labor is worthy of his wages. So I'm only saying this because I don't like the idea and and don't think it's biblical to say that the pastor needs to live on the minimal amount.

And I know this from experience. When I was first an assistant pastor at a church, they literally asked me, what's the least amount of money I could live on? They actually asked me that is an offensive question.

And they and I was I made sixteen thousand and nine dollars gross income that year in mid 90s in Southern California. We're just broke all the time. And so we don't want that to occur, but we don't want to just have extravagance.

You name it and claim it and all this stuff. Where do you find the balance? That's where the eldership needs to come in and other elders, if necessary, to come in to discuss how that is to be worked. So we have a friend who was up here in Idaho.

He moved down to Southern California, Simi Valley. Up here, I don't know what his salary was. It's none of my business. But let's just say up here he's making fifty thousand dollars a year. He could survive on fifty thousand dollars a year here in Idaho and Simi Valley in Southern California.

You'll go broke in a month. You're out. You're done. You can't you can't survive that. So they had to up his salary significantly in order to survive. So it's not how much money wise it's what's needed to survive and do OK in that environment that you're in.

And that's debatable. And so how do we work it? It's just not as easy as as ABC. You know what I mean?

Right. Well, as Jesus and the apostles, I mean, unless I'm mistaken, none of them were rich. I mean, Paul was a tent maker, right? He worked. I mean, I didn't I didn't see them being like, you know, promoting, you know, again, I understand in today's world, you know, it's it's different.

But, you know, the the that that word that scripture read, the double honor of I've often wondered, is that exactly what that means? Does that mean monetary or respect or that's what do you think double the honor means?

That's that's that's the right question. I don't have a perfect answer for you. I'm just saying I could make the case that that's all I'm saying is, is it's not as simple as we might think. And I'm not asking, you know, in my ministry that I run here, I'm not asking for any raises.

I don't need any money. I have Social Security coming in. I get some from the ministry. I'm OK. I don't need anymore. So but what do you do with a pastor who is just trying to make ends meet and he doesn't want to say anything to the congregation?

Well, a lot of times people just assume the pastor, because he's so spiritual, has to live on next to nothing. And that puts undue pressure on him as well as the wife, if he has wife, he's married and children.

And then he's become can become resentful because everybody's taking advantage of him. Well, let's just say that he's working a 40 hour week job. Well, then he works 40 hours there. And as a pastor, that's another 20, 30, 40 hours a week.

He's got to work for that. Now his family's suffering. He's not around. It's not neat here. Oh, we got a break. So hold on. We'll get back to it. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We just ask that you would stay tuned.

And we'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Ministry, Family Burdens, and the Realities of Pastoral Work

All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Scott. Scott, are you still there?

Yes. Yes, I am.

All right. All right. So I don't know. You want to get a lot of momentum there during the break. Got any other comments or you want to.

Yeah, I just I just kind of wanted to add to I know. I mean, I was I was on the finance board of our church or basically an elder for a period of time. And it always it seems like with our pastoral staff, it's always a very, very sensitive issue.

Like somebody asked them once, why isn't why isn't your salaries all posted? Because I guess a lot of churches do. I'm not sure about that. But, you know, and the only response is, well, because it can cause division.

That I'm thought, well, it's it's all it's all it's all God's money. It should be 100 percent open and and transparent in my book. And it should be explained to people, too, that, hey, well, you say I only make fifty thousand dollars, but it isn't like me making fifty thousand because I only actually take home thirty five after taxes, Social Security and all that stuff.

Right. And they they don't. That's not the same. Their 50 isn't my 50. You know, I just think it should be explained fully in churches. So everybody is clear of what's happening.

That's one perspective. It can cause problems. It can cause resentment because then they're going to they might say, well, if you're making fifty thousand a year, what are you doing with all your money?

Now we want to know what bills you're paying. Now we want to know what you're doing with your money. And we want to know how much you're getting for the clothes for your children. That's too much clothes.

And then all of a sudden the pastor is now micromanaged by the congregation and he will not be free to preach and teach. You will not be. I'll tell you right now. Yeah. And so I see that perspective. Yep.

That's why the elders are the ones who should take care of it. Let them deal with it. And he should be accountable to the elders of the church. It is one of the elders by definition. And let them work with it.

Because if someone comes to the to the elders, how much is he making? Say, well, we've agreed that that's that's nobody's business. But if you want to say come up to the pulpit on a Sunday, tell us how much you are making.

And then we would like an accounting of what you do with the money that God has given you through work. Then maybe he will do the same thing. And people would go, oh, forget that. And so they they often want the pastor to do things that they won't do.

They want him to be more spiritual than they are. And then they want to put requirements on him that they won't even adhere to. There's a sense in which that's OK. There's a sense in which it's not. Resentment can very quickly, very easily occur.

And I remember it. I remember it. When I was in a church situation where they're paying me very, very little, very little. And I was just trying to survive. And they got to the point where I was having problems, particularly since I knew there were millionaires in the church.

Who had in the dairy industry had entire farms and the organ was two hundred fifty thousand dollars. And so they're paying the least they could possibly pay. And so that caused resentment. And then now this is how it also works.

OK, so now I'm resenting them. Now it's a problem I have to deal with. Now it's sinful in my heart for resenting them. I should be happy with what they're paying me. Then my wife says, how come you're not getting more from the church or they have a lot of money and we're starving here.

We can't pay our bills. Well, I can't say anything to them because it just looks like I'm money grabbing. So I'll get another job outside. Then they say, why are you working outside? Well, because you're not paying me.

Oh, you're complaining. It just it just snowballs. And it can become a problem. So this is why it's best to just let the elders provide for him so he doesn't have to be resentful and that he can lead the congregation.

That's a visibility that takes humility on everybody's part and stuff like that. But in the real life and I know I have been there, I have been there and I was assistant pastor and a senior pastor. And I'll tell you, the toughest people to deal with are the people.

I have a friend who said he'd be a pastor again as long as he didn't have to deal with any people because they come up and they stay. And I tell people who want to go into ministry, what I tell them is this.

I say, look, you're going to be qualified. You got to be humbled. You got to be this. You got to be that. And you've got to be willing. I tell them all the same thing. You've got to be willing to put your arm around someone and help them up while they're stabbing you in the back.

I think they're doing what's right.

I think I think where I live and you live, you know, is such a Mormon influence here, too. And in the last few years there, you know, wealth has become in the news and people are looking closer at that.

And it's like, well, you guys are tax exempt status and you're hoarding billions and billions of dollars. And obviously it, you know, kind of crosses down to a local church level, too. And, you know, people are more like, hey, wait, wait a minute.

What's what's going on? Are we paying the pastor too much or not enough? You know, that that's kind of how they say. But I do appreciate your time and your insight.

And I think another comment. OK, so this ministry right here that I run is 501C3. And when you're a pastor, you're 501C3. So you can be in that kind of a thing. When I was a pastor, I had to pay taxes.

And as this ministry goes, I had to pay thousands a month in taxes. It's just people don't know what it's like. And I'm not whining, complaining. You know, I'm just I'm just saying it's just not as easy people think it is.

And, oh, it's all tax free. So he gets 50 a year. He actually keeps 50 years. Not true. It is not true. Plus the pastor, depending, they can opt out of Social Security and then they have to take the money and put it into a bank account.

Hopefully that when they retire at 65 or whatever it is, they can have some money that they can lean on. Or if they don't opt out of Social Security, then they would just take another check like anybody else.

That's it. So I'm on Social Security because I didn't opt out when I became a pastor. Right. All right.

And that that's kind of like the question that the first lady was talking about is that I've had somebody ask me, well, since. We that the church is paying for the pastor's house. If something happens to him or he sells that house, should all the money go back to the church or does he get to keep that?

That depends on what the arrangement is, because you can have a parsonage allowance and you could say to somebody, come here and live here for 20 years. And, you know, however long you be a pastor, he's a pastor.

He doesn't own the parsonage. The church does. And then he retires or the church goes under. Now, what happens to him? He doesn't have any assets built up in capital gains. He doesn't have anything like that.

Now, what's he going to be living on? Do we want to do that to a pastor? What if we say, look, we'll give you the church. I mean, we'll give you the parsonage and you pay this much. And then when you when you retire and if if the church were to sell it, the church gets half, you get half kind of thing.

Whatever is arranged in order to take care of the pastor. And like I said, so many congregation members, this is a huge problem. So many congregation members just want their pastor to squeak by because they're supposed to be spiritual examples.

And they don't realize how very hard it is for a man to be in the ministry, to serve people, to get up at three o 'clock in the morning because someone's got an accident and you've got to go to E .R. And you've got to get up and preach in four hours.

OK, and you've got to do that. And your car breaks down in the way. And this really happens. And then you take an Uber to get to church to preach. But you don't have to say anything because the church is going to pay for your car.

You got to pay out of your own salary. OK, well, that's fine. This is life. And then they'll say, well, now you've got to go back to the over to the hospital. And, you know, he's working 50, 60 hour weeks and he's not getting paid what others would be paying for that kind of money of work either.

And the pastor can't say stuff. There's lots of situations where the pastor just has to keep quiet about a lot of things. And it's to his own detriment a lot of times. Let me tell you, pastoring is hard.

It's work. It's hard. And it's very difficult, very different. OK, so the elders of the church have got to work through this. All right.

Oh, OK, he's gone.

Sorry about that. All right, let's get on with Charles from Ohio. Hey, Charles, welcome. You're on the air.

Welcome. Hi. I am I'm 75. My wife's 74. We have health issues. I'm diabetic. I have diabetic neuropathy in my legs and feet. My wife has she's just been treated for cancer successfully. Praise God. And she has COPD and she pretty much sits.

That's part of the COPD, you know, the effects of it. And I've been going to a church when I can. And like a friend kind of kind of reminded me, I've been going there for convenience sake because it's really close.

And the hours of the services and the multiple services. But it's a King James only church. And I've talked only only with the pastor about it. So he's aware that I'm not really on board with that. But, you know, I still been going when I can.

And and we're you know, we're on good terms and everything. But there's some things, you know, about the church that I I really struggle with. There are no elders that I can find. They don't really have a statement of faith.

There's no deacons that I know of either. They don't have bulletins. They don't you know, to kind of keep you informed. There's no directory to kind of be able to hold on. Get in touch with other members.

We have a break. Other break coming up here really quickly. So hold on. We'll get back to you after the break. All right. Hey, folks, be right back after these messages. I hope you want to stay tuned and the Lord bless you.

Be right back.

It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Finding a Healthy Church and Caring for an Ill Spouse

Hey, everybody.

Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276. Let's get back on with Charles. You still there?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't mean to say all that to complain, but that's just what I'm facing. And I'm really struggling even to take care of my wife. She can't do meals anymore. I have to go get her meals.

We don't live in town. We live a little bit out in the country, you know, five to seven miles one way to, you know, go get. And she basically eats fast food, which I feel terrible about that. But she won't eat my cook.

And I don't really know how to cook. I try. But, you know, it's like where I go to church, we don't have much support because the church is it's 12 years old, but it's not really set up like a New Testament church with elders and deacons.

And, you know, it's not easy to know other people because of a lack of communication through directory or bulletins.