July 13, 2017 Show with Tim Challies on “Visual Theology: Seeing & Understanding the Truth About God” PLUS Kurt M. Smith on “Holding Georgia for Geneva: Patrick Hues Mell & the Baptist Defense For Calvinistic Orthodoxy”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of July

2017 and we have today for the first hour Returning as our guest Tim

Chalice.

Who's author blogger book reviewer for world magazine and co -founder of cruciform

press?

He's going to be addressing the theme visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about God.

During the second hour we have returning to our program Kurt M Smith author and

pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama he is going to

be continuing a discussion that we began recently on iron sharpens iron on

Holding Georgia for Geneva Patrick Hughes Mel and the Baptist defense for

Calvinistic Orthodoxy, we'll also be talking about the 2018 g3

conference that's coming up where our first guest Tim Chalice is one of

many speakers on the roster.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Tim Chalice and

In that in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello.

Once again, good to be here.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com and please give

us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA and Tell us before we even go into the

subject matter of the book that you have written.

That you've co -authored along with Josh Byers.

Tell us something about the primary focus of your writing ministry.

I know I know that it has very often a lot to do with a Christian and his

involvement with computer technology and so on.

But what are the other themes that you are primarily focused on in your ministry?

Amen and what would be if you wanted to describe it in a nutshell?

What would be your theological?

Persuasion if you would.

I guess.

Great.

And where do you fellowship.

There in Canada at Grace Fellowship Church.

Great and we will be

giving our listeners.

Contact information about that fellowship and all the other contact information That you need to know

about Tim Challies a little bit later on in the broadcast but

today we are discussing primarily your book visual theology seeing and

understanding the truth about God and Your publisher has given us

an overview of this.

We live in a visual culture today people increasingly rely upon visuals

to help them understand new and difficult concepts.

The rise and stunning popularity of the Internet Infographic has given

us a new way in which to convey data Concepts and ideas, but the visual portrayal of

truth is not a novel idea.

Indeed God himself used visuals to teach truth to his people.

The tabernacle of the Old Testament was a visual representation of man's distance from God and

God's Condescension to his people.

Each part of the tabernacle was meant to display something of man's treason against God and

God's kind response.

Likewise the sacraments of the New Testament are visual representations of man's sin and God's response.

Even the cross was both reality and a visual demonstration.

As teachers and lovers of sound theology Challies and buyers have a deep desire to

convey the concepts and principles of systematic theology in a fresh beautiful and

Informative way in this book.

They have made the deepest truths of the Bible accessible in a way that can be said and understood by

a visual generation and There is something interesting

about this concept of visual theology because you have disagreement

as you must know amongst.

Even like -minded brethren in Christ who are theologically reformed very conservative.

You have those who want to make much use of the visual technology that is available

To us today and then you have others that are squeamish about it.

They they don't like overhead projectors.

They want to stick with the hymnal.

They want to.

They don't want the Bible verses On the wall of the church for

everyone to read together.

They want to have Bibles in the hands of all the congregants and that they are leery about things that they

may Either rightly or wrongly View as an intrusion on the regulative principle of

worship things that are foreign to the scriptures that are now being added To what we are doing.

Always with good motives, of course, we assume.

But how do you respond to that that tug -of -war that's going on?

Now when you as a church do what you just described where you only are using the

visual Aids during studies times is that because you are convicted

that to introduce these things would be wrong.

Or are you just trying to accommodate the desires of some of the folks in worship services?

Either who are members or may who may visit?

Because I'm wondering if you would actually.

Criticize those churches that do use those

things in

worship.

Yeah, I

would not

say it.

And do you

have a

position on?

The use of images in regard to paintings and sculpture that depict Christ.

There is a divide as you know, even amongst again.

Even amongst brethren in Christ in the same theologically reformed camp perhaps even in the same pew at

church who have disagreements over whether or not we can have pictures of

Jesus in books on the walls of the church.

Even you know stained -glass windows with these sometimes very breathtaking and beautiful

beautiful pieces of artwork and you have those both in the Roman Catholic Church

and in some of the High liturgical Protestant churches who would say

that the church has used these things.

For the very reasons that you believe.

Visual aids have a proper place to teach.

Those and they will make the claim that that was especially true in a time when Illiteracy was a

far greater problem than it is today.

But how do you react to that that aspect of the discussion?

Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment for you.

Well, you were referring to the fact that that God even used imagery in the Old Testament and so forth.

I'm not exactly sure.

What kind of imagery I mean, I understand in the Old Testament there was imagery with the tabernacle and everything but

I'm trying to equate this with the Church history.

Are you talking for example things like When I took one on my churches, they had two pulpits

and I didn't realize at first why they had two pulpits.

Then I found out you know, there was imagery there of.

One was the Word of Man and the other one was where you read the scriptures from that was the Word of God and other.

Things like that Preachers wearing robes and things.

Are you talking about these kinds of things?

I'm not quite sure Where we're going with this.

Sure.

Well, let

me

go

back to

the

center.

It and God's at the center and then you would see it is walled

off.

Which means not just anyone can go strolling in this place is set apart as you went into the courtyard.

You would see a giant altar.

You would see washbasins.

If you went into the the most holy place, which of course you couldn't.

You would see certain things in there.

If you went into the most holy place, you'd see here's a curtain the cover the color of blood and on that curtain

We've got cherubim.

Those are clearly warning you away that you cannot come into this place.

And so everything was meant to teach a truth beyond itself as smoke went up.

It was meant to teach you as the animals were slaughtered.

It was meant to teach you and so that is visual theology God never said.

And so God teaches through words.

God also teaches through images, which is where word supper and baptism come in, right?

We have words and we have pictures side -by -side and together they teach truth.

And we have a listener in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Rose who says hello brother Tim.

I really enjoy your work.

May I ask the following.

Jesus was the master of visual theology with his use of parables.

Is this something you discuss in your book brother?

Arnzen the next thing, you know, you'll have to entitle this show with Jesus use PowerPoint.

Yeah, well that's interesting but Jesus obviously didn't have flashcards when he was giving the parables he was giving

Us mental pictures with words, but if you could comment on that.

Great.

Well guess what.

Rose you have won a free copy of Visual theology

seeing and understanding the truth about God by Tim Challey's and Josh Byers.

Compliments of Zondervan and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service will be shipping that book out to

you.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

We thank you for contributing another excellent question on iron sharpens iron radio and

Let's see.

We have another Question here.

We have Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

Mr. Challey's in your experience is the mind more graphically oriented.

So as to draw better analogies or relations between objects or as in your book The

various points concerning theological doctrines as opposed to just listing the facts

concerning various doctrines.

Amen and I'm going back to something you said earlier I'm sure or at least I'm guessing that you would have

no objection to a church watching a movie or inviting The neighbors of

the church for family friends and loved ones to the actual building Where you worship

as long as it's not during a worship service, so I'm assuming that you would agree with that.

I'm probably though.

I'm not sure it's something our church would be.

I should have

clarified.

I'm speaking about like for instance a.

Educational Christian document.

Documentary or even a movie a drama that is Accurately

portraying biblical events and characters and of course if you did not use the.

If you did not use the depiction of Christ in the movie or something that might violate your conscience.

But if you're just talking about the Apostles and so on in a movie would that be?

Acceptable to you.

Sure.

Yeah again.

I don't think we operate it.

Okay.

Thank you, Jenny.

And if you wanted to send in the clarifying email regarding your question, that would be fine but

if Tim's Answer was sufficient for you We will move on to

another listener.

We have a lot of listeners actually writing in questions for you Tim.

You're obviously popular with the iron chirping's iron audience.

But Jenny you've also won a free copy of visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about

God.

Compliments of Zondervan and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

CV BBS comm please make sure we have your full mailing address.

So CV BBS comm can ship out a copy of that book

to you.

Let's see we have Scott in Bryan, Ohio and

Scott in Bryan, Ohio.

I have to enlarge the font.

This is very much in keeping with our visual theology discussion because I could barely read this.

After enlarge his email here.

Thank You Chris for bringing mr. Chalice to your program.

I have read his blogs and reviews for several years and learn a lot.

Please ask Tim how he suggests talking to fellow Christians who disagree about heresies like

the shack or areas of a contention in the church about tithing being Ceremonial and

no longer necessary the church makes it sound like tithing is commanded not a personal choice.

And of course, but our listeners Scott just listed about five different one -hour programs that we could do.

But if you want to answer to the best of your ability You could respond to Scott in Bryan,

Ohio.

Sure, so I

think

after

someone and

really

confronting

them really

addressing them strongly.

It may not be the time if you're close to them.

If you've got a good relationship and really afraid for their soul.

Then I do

think we have to

be careful to gain credibility in a person's life and then we'll be able

to well.

Thank you, Scott in Bryan, Ohio.

You've also won a free copy of Tim Chalice book visual theology.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address.

So CV BBS comm can ship that out to you.

And we thank Zondervan once again for being so generous To provide us with copies of Tim's book.

We have a fellow author Tim Who has now submitted a question

an author that I have had on this program many times.

Her name is. Dr. Latane C Scott and She's from Albuquerque, New Mexico a

former Mormon who by the grace and mercy of Christ became a born -again believer and

Even wrote the classic work on Mormonism known as the Mormon Mirage.

Yeah, and Latane says Tim Chalice daily email letter is one of the most

valuable resources.

I rely on by the way.

Did you pay her for this?

I Strongly urge any listeners to sign up for them.

He gives valuable links to interesting articles that I read and I link to on Facebook.

They may they make me look smart even when I'm not feeling that way.

My Facebook friends love them.

Would Tim please address these two questions.

How has it worked for him to resign as a pastor and become a full -time writer?

Supported by patrons, I'm one of his patrons.

I really appreciate him.

That's the first question.

She has.

All

right,

perhaps

you could even

just a little

bit

summarize

what

Latane

means.

By your being a full -time writer supported by patrons and that she is one of your patrons.

Right, so at

low levels and

so that's what

I've done through

a site

called Patreon.

People there can sign up.

I've never seen

the Reverend Buzz Taylor's interest peak up.

Because I know that he's in the process of writing an eschatological book and sure could use

support on his own.

By the way Latane Thank you so much for the excellent question and you have also won a copy of

visual theology by our guest Tim Chalice.

And please make sure we have your full mailing address in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Where a Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship out a copy of the book?

We're going to go to a question a question we're going to go to a station break right now and

Before we go to that break I thought I'd just read a brief question to you and you

could think about it over the break and then respond when we return.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know is that I have even noticed that in many Reformed

Protestant churches Especially those that are a bit more liturgical that they you will

use symbolism for the Trinity such as a crown for the Father a dove for the

Holy Spirit and a lamb for Jesus.

If you could comment as to whether or not you think this is appropriate imagery for Christians to

use and We will be returning right after these messages to get Tim Chalice

answer and to do further discuss his book Visual theology.

Don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guests for the first hour on iron sharpens iron is Tim Challey's

author blogger book reviewer for world magazine and co -founder of cruciform press.

He is discussing the theme of visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about God and upcoming it in our second

hour.

We will have Kurt M Smith on the program.

He's an author and pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama, and he's going to be continuing

a discussion.

We began several weeks ago on holding, Georgia for Geneva Patrick Hughes

Mel and the Baptist defense for Calvinistic Orthodoxy.

If you'd like to join us with a question right now for Tim Challey's on visual orthodoxy a visual theology I'm

sorry.

Our email address is Chris Arns and at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Before the break.

As you know, Tim we had Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who is asking you about the legitimacy of

some churches even some reformed churches that use symbols like a crown a lamb and a dove

to depict the Trinity.

If you could comment on your.

Your feeling or your view.

I should say we should never be talking about our feelings.

Your your opinion about this from the scriptures.

Yeah, I think we have to distinguish.

Yeah, you made a good point there about the written word because the I believe some of the Asian

Languages are miniature pictures and they're they're wording there, right?

And so their understanding of God would be.

Well, thank you Arnie

in Perry

County,

Pennsylvania.

You've also won a free copy of visual theology as seeing and understanding the truth about God

compliments of Zondervan Publishing and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

CV bbs .com.

So, please give us your full mailing address so that CV bbs .com could ship that out to you.

And.

That isn't.

There is an interesting debate about The Second Commandment and

There are some who would say it is appropriate to have a painting of Jesus

Because of the fact that the commandment is clearly talking about bowing down to and

worshiping the images because if it was not Specifically talking about bowing down to

and worshiping the images we should not ever even have a painting of a bird or an animal

in our home or anywhere in our possession because The commandment does include a

prohibition to making images of anything.

On the earth the sky above or in the sea, etc.

But it's obviously in connection with bowing down to these images.

Sure, and we need to be very very careful.

Usually far lighter skin than he probably was.

And if you think about

you think about the

Jesus of the power mind.

Yes, excellent.

And by the way,

I don't have

the date.

In my at my fingertips right now.

But if anybody wants to email me at Chris Arnson at gmail .com after the program is over.

I do have information.

Somewhere from my friend. Dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist

Seminary.

He is having unless it has already occurred because I just heard about this recently he's having a debate on this very

subject with a Roman Catholic on venerating images.

So if you could.

If you are interested in that email me later and put Tony Costa in the subject line.

In fact, I arranged a debate on this issue years ago between my friend. Dr James R white of Alpha Omega Ministries

and Patrick Madrid of Envoy magazine a Roman Catholic Apologist and they debated

on this issue, and I'm sure you could find that at Aomin .org, that's the

website for Alpha and Omega Ministries aomin .org

and we have Murray in Kinross Scotland.

He says thinking of things visual and what we can learn and understand from it.

What exactly is a holy kiss as In Romans chapter 16 verse 16

greet one another with a holy kiss.

I don't think I've ever seen believers kiss each other in a particular holy way.

All right, if you could respond to Murray's question.

Yeah, I've been to Scotland.

My wife and her family are Scott.

Greet one another.

You go to Italy today.

You might see something like it right where people are doing the the cheek -to -cheek kiss kind of thing.

And so that was a form of greeting.

He was just telling people to to greet one another in that way.

I don't think we have I don't think we obey that commandment today by Kissing one another.

We obey that commandment today by greeting one another in whatever way is appropriate and in

whatever way shows true love and true affection

that that and.

That's part of the beauty of culture as we all do these things.

Traveling and experiencing other cultures.

Yes, well.

As you know or may know dr. James R. White who is of Scottish heritage He's always says a look of

panic on his face when people approach him and hug him.

As did my my former pastor who just recently took a call to the UK David

Campbell who is a native Scotsman.

He was not very fond of that.

I could tell when I'd come up to him and give him a hug.

He looked like he wanted to call 9 -1 -1 or something.

Right going to go

down to South America.

You better learn to

have people from all around the world in our

church and you you see how people sort of bullets.

Here's what you're comfortable with and we're going to find ways of loving one another even though those can be very very different.

I might seem overbearing to you.

You might seem standoffish to me.

We've got to learn to love one another despite those cultural barriers and I bet in the New Testament Church Jews and

Gentiles probably had different ways of greeting one another and they just had to work out that stuff.

And the gospel gave them both.

Yes, and.

We.

Let's see we have.

We have CJ and Lindenhurst.

Long Island, New York.

Do you think it is inappropriate for a church even if they were to have a belief that

Portraits of Jesus are acceptable to have him depicted as you mentioned earlier as being strikingly

handsome.

For we read in Isaiah 53 to that he grew up before him

Like a tender shoot and like a root out of parched ground.

He is no stately form or majesty that we would look upon him nor appearance that

we would be.

Attracted

to

him

this.

Has become Somewhat popular.

I don't know how popular but Probably starting in the 1960s or 70s.

It may have begun earlier, but there have been black Christian artists or black

Christians or churches that are dominated by african -american congregants

who have used black portraits of Jesus and And

perhaps not to to really signify that they really

believe Jesus was of African descent or that he was black because if they

are knowledgeable Christians, they would know that he is Jewish.

But If there was a church that for instance wanted to give an image

that Was in contrast let's say like in the days of apartheid in South Africa

where Depicting a white Jesus would be something that might strike unnecessary terror and

young people perhaps or have a negative connotation would it be

appropriate under that kind of circumstance to use a portrait of a black Jesus or is this just another

wrong use of imagery.

Yeah, just another

wrong use of

imagery

and I

would

say the

base

creating up

then

determine

will

we

look yeah.

I just saw recently I forget where I saw it might have been on the news or something where

someone created a sculpture of a Crucifix of Christ on the cross and

the image of Christ looked like he was on steroids.

I mean he was like Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which is a kind of

absurd because when you think of His state is his physical

state before he was executed.

He would have far it would have not resembled that at all.

Right.

Yeah, I hope

that

other people respond to him based

on how we have a new our

first -time questioner.

Daniel from San Jose, California and he says I

Started listening late in the show.

So my question may have been asked already.

Is there a Disadvantage to having visuals for example when praying I do want I do not

want to have a visual of the picture Commonly known as Jesus in my mind when at the throne

of grace.

Is this or could that be a form of idolatry?

Thank you for your ministries brothers.

Yeah,

absolutely.

That

could be

if you're

yeah, that is.

I don't buzz.

Taylor has a

question or

comment.

I'm gonna refer back to A course on logic, I believe some of this came

out of Isaac Watts's book and some I think came from R .C. Sproul.

I can't remember where all came from but in regards to that last question

when we envision Jesus We're not necessarily Being

idolatrous, but our mind has to picture something.

I mean They they use the example of you know, picture a horse.

You can.

Everybody that's listening right now is picturing a horse in their mind.

Well, is it brown?

Is it black?

Does it have long fur short fur?

You know, what kind of horse is it?

Well, it doesn't matter.

We have this idea of Horseness in our minds.

Well, how you know when we're thinking of Jesus Our minds are automatically going to go

to some kind of an image aren't is isn't it?

Well, I hope it's not going to a horse.

I'm not saying it.

All right.

Well, if you know Tim if you could respond to that.

I wouldn't want to call just the fact that my mind has to put something in that place.

Okay, Tim.

I don't think

it

has to I mean

when

I when I think Holy

Spirit, I don't.

The idea is as

he is.

We were.

I was not referring to even a a conscious effort

as in a studied effort.

But just the idea that our minds are if we Picture Jesus preaching on the

Mount of Olives in our mind.

He has some kind of a form.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course, and you know, I maybe it's a kind of.

Okay, we have

one more we have

time for

one more.

Quick question.

This is Joe in Slovenia who says there are many wilderness ministries today and their methodology of

leading groups into wilderness areas to Capitalize on the visuals of creation in wild

spaces in is gaining popularity.

What could you say about this approach to evangelism and discipleship for a visual theology perspective?

Are there specific common? commendations and warnings That you would give.

Yeah, I'm not

I'm

not

too

familiar

with.

Well, thank

you Joe

in

Slovenia

and especially

thank

you

for the American

address where

we

can.

Have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship this book much more affordably to you that's visual

theology seeing and understanding the truth about God by our guest Tim Challies and

also by Josh Byers Compliments of Zondervan publishing and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

and if anybody else has won this book by writing in Your question, please submit to us your

full mailing address so we can have that book shipped out to you as well.

I want to thank you Tim Challies.

I know that your website is challies .com, correct?

That's correct.

Yep.

C H a l l I e s dot -com and also a cruciform

press a Publishing house that Tim is involved in.

That website is cruciform press calm.

Any other contact information you care to give?

No, that's great.

Just check out the fact and don't forget the fact that

Tim Challies is one of the speakers at the g3 conference coming up January

18th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia and Tim is one of many speakers there

on the subject of knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

That website is g3 conference calm g3 conference calm.

Thanks Tim.

And we look forward to having you back on the program very soon.

Alrighty god bless and We want you to stay tuned folks.

Don't go away because Kurt M Smith is going to be joining us any moment now and Kurt M

Smith as we said earlier is going to be discussing The

subject that we began with Kurt not long ago and that subject

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio if you've just tuned us in our guest today for

the second hour is Kurt M Smith and I'm looking forward

to Interviewing Kurt Smith again as he is returning to the program

for what I'm sure will be an excellent interview.

We began this interview a while back and then We ran out

of time because of the Lister questions kind of took us in a different path as I recall.

But we are going to be discussing holding Georgia for Geneva Patrick Hughes Mel and

a Baptist defense for Calvinistic Orthodoxy, but before we go to Kurt we have

to Do some housekeeping here and make some special announcements

for our sponsors.

First of all, we have an upcoming event.

That is being sponsored by our friends at the Word of Truth Church in

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The theme is knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship and please if you either

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And now it comes to that real fun part that I have and I say that sarcastically because I'm very uncomfortable asking

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We are now adjoined by Kurt M Smith author and pastor of Providence Reformed

Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

And we are continuing a discussion.

We began recently on holding Georgia for Geneva Patrick Hughes Mel and the Baptist

defense for Calvinistic orthodoxy and I believe that book unlike the last time we were speaking I

believe that book is now in print and That's my honor and privilege to have you back on the iron sharpens iron radio

Kurt M Smith.

Thanks Chris.

It's good to be back with you and in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor and hello.

It's good to have you on.

And why Georgia?

I'm not even sure.

I don't even understand that question.

Georgia.

The name of the book.

Oh, well, he's gonna let us know about that.

He is Written about a very well -known.

Well, not a very well -known I should say he's a very unknown.

A figure from church history that he wants to bring into the

mindset of the church today and we have to rescue these obscure

figures from the past that have been lost over the

Ages, but if you could.

First of all Kurt let our listeners know something about Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine

Mountain, Alabama.

Well

continued

they

wanted to

see

we dissolve.

Great.

And

that is also

the

organization

to

which.

The congregation where I am a member belongs Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

In fact, it was born out of that congregation where I am a member that's right and

We will be giving the contact information for our guests.

Church.

Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama Towards the end of the program.

So if you're visiting there you can Pay a visit.

If you're visiting, Alabama.

You could pay a visit there or if you're already living there You could pay a visit as well.

And perhaps if you don't have a church home You will find one there or especially if you don't have a church

home that is biblically sound but.

This is one of those times as I was just Mentioning to buzz where we have these

obscure figures unknown to the majority of Christendom that

really need to be Brought out of the darkness of their obscurity into the light

of the modern age so that we can glean much from them That otherwise would be missed and we

thank God for people like you who have discovered people.

Like the figure that we are discussing today Patrick Hughes Mel.

Tell us tell our listeners something about him as much of the in summary form his background In

regard to his own upbringing and his salvation and why we are discussing him today.

14 or

many

different

hats

really

gives you

factory

evidence

many

years

back.

Well,

praise God.

I want to

read just an excerpt from Tom

Nettles forward of your book.

Tom who has been a guest in this program many times on iron sharpens iron Especially the old iron

sharpens iron broadcasting out of New York.

We've got to get Tom back on again soon.

What a precious brother in Christ and what a gift to the church he is.

But he says that you my guest today.

Kurt M Smith Argues along with Patrick Hughes Mel that Calvinism

gave the Southern Baptist Convention its robust and unified theological beginning.

A Person who strays from Calvinism strays from a major element of what it means to be

Baptist.

In addition Smith follows Mel in believing that commitment to the system should involve an

open and unembarrassed Willingness to use the term.

I think he gives good reasons for his conviction.

The research is precisely pertinent to the purpose of the volume is thoroughly digested

and accurately presented in a clear and endearing style.

The footnotes carry some excellent material for extra reading along with Substantial references

that help seal the narrative if you are undecided where you stand in the theological discussion

Surrounding this subject.

I believe this volume will help you sort the issues out with the help of one of the most Influential

Southern Baptists during its generation it's generation of Genesis if you

already captured if you are already captured by these truths as

inexhaustible food for the soul read this for your encouragement and distribute about five

to friends who would benefit from this frank and honest discussion of vital Christian truth and a

faithful Christian witness.

That's Tom J. Nettles of Louisville, Kentucky former faculty member at the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, and he bring he brings up something

interesting in that forward because I frequently in fact

much to the dismay of Many of my listeners or at least a portion of my

listeners.

I frequently bring up the term Calvinism and identify myself with that term and

I not only get Some measure of complaint from non Calvinists, but even some of my fellow

Reformed brethren will say to me Well, you know John Calvin would never Have agreed to use that

term and he'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew that we were identifying Ourselves today with

his name.

He doesn't even have a marked grave anywhere and we are to attribute our beliefs to Christ

alone And not to mere mortal men such as ourselves and when I respond

to folks like that Kurt I Basically say to them number one.

I am NOT attributing these doctrines as having their

Genesis or their beginnings in the writings of John Calvin.

I thoroughly believe they're biblical or I would never believe in them.

In fact, I believed in them by God's grace and mercy before I even knew who John Calvin

was When I was introduced to them through a tract George

Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on Election and the Lord used that tract

not even the writings of George Whitfield to convince me.

But he used the biblical references that George Whitfield Brought up in his letter to John Wesley but

isn't this just a shorthand that really can cut down

a Conversation from five hours to maybe an hour if we I mean these people who think that we

don't shouldn't use labels they really are typically using labels of their own anyway, and they're

they the labels that they use sometimes are.

Too.

Ambiguous or vague.

Like for instance people who say I just want to call myself a Bible believing Christian.

Well, so do many of the cults so do.

So does so does anybody that believes that the Bible is some kind of a valuable book and they claim to be a Christian.

And.

Then and they often have you know, a whole assortment of heretical ideas, but if you could respond.

Yeah, I.

Making it in

the end that if you

are then you should not be ashamed

is actually

threefold.

First of all that if you preach the whole Council of God, you're gonna have trouble

among since you

are

Calvinistic.

But

what

I go on

to

reason from that

is one you

preach

God's Word you're

gonna

Calvinistic.

Baptism

without

calling is what

you're preaching.

The question is going to

if if

any Brother is preaching

from the Word of God

you preaching Calvinism.

And so if he's

trying for questions if

this is what he's preaching.

What do you think

Alvin the

term

itself and the

doctrines historically attached to it?

Yes.

Yes.

You know.

So so much so my main point is this if you're not educating your Congregation as to what Calvinism

really is then and more than likely what

the

many Baptist

pastors need to hear

the

truth

about.

Furthermore, they need to explain why they that

can be done as I

say in the

this way.

That'll lead

the dispatcher.

Accused

male when he entered the past

was very alarmed and he

preached those

doctrines of God's

Word to these very confused Saints and Eventually before and we're

gonna go to a break

right now.

And by the way occurred I forwarded one of our listeners.

Questions to you so you have it and can look it over during the break.

Just keep your eye open for a for an email from me.

That's his question for Kurt M Smith.

That's a question from Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

I Will read it right now and you can answer it when we get back from the break.

She says it has been disconcerting for the past few years in the Southern Baptist Convention how the

Armenians have vociferously pushed against the Calvinists and in my estimation are trying to rewrite

history by dogmatically issuing their statement.

A Statement of the traditional Southern Baptist understanding of God's plan of salvation.

Which essentially is promoting and pushing?

Synergism over monergism.

Al Mohler has made it quite clear clear that the Southern Baptist Convention Was initially driven by

Calvinists and in fact the first seminary that the Southern Baptist Convention founded.

Calvinism was clearly taught and promoted.

What has led in your estimation to such dissent.

And you could answer that when we come back from our break if anybody else would like to join us and we have a few of you

still waiting and we will get to you as soon as possible.

But if we have time if anybody else would like a question asked and answered by our guest Kurt M

Smith our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Aronson our guest for this final hour with a half hour to go or a little less than that is Kurt

M. Smith author and pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

We are discussing his new book holding Georgia for Geneva Patrick Hughes Mel and the Baptist defense

for Calvinistic Orthodoxy a new publication from solid ground Christian books

Which you can order at solid ground books .com solid ground

books .com.

But Before the break as you know Kurt we had a

question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, which basically in summary was

what has led in your estimation to such dissent in the Southern Baptist Convention where the Denomination has been

virtually turned upside down Once being in its majority Calvinistic and now being in its

majority Arminian and even Arminian and anti Calvinist.

To that question in

three

the

but in answering

dissenting

from the

increasing emphasis

Lean any passion or concern.

And where this came all the full flower in SPC history was in 1925 with the establishment of the

cooperative program.

In fact, even dr. Tom Nettles Addresses this very issue direct

by his grace full -blown history and overview of the doctrines of grace in Baptist

life.

Excellent.

He leaves no stone unturned and bring to light the Calvinistic backgrounds of most of

our Baptist heroes.

Even the heroes that are many in Baptist would uphold as their great heroes.

Yeah, that's right.

Very much.

Well, he he's been the whole chapter this very issue.

Cooperative this monetary support

has ignited

doctrinal distinctives tend to be overlooked.

And so simply

this they're

holding the cooperative probe of

losing

moving away

the 19th

century

divided over the question of how one carries out missions.

Doctrinally speaking All the

Baptist came to the method of missions

one group added missions by the local church or

the other group.

Well, the

end result

was full

fruition.

And

they do

unwittingly embrace a Semi

-Pelagian

view that document

which is gaining such

way

that

the

entire

19th century

influence

of

for

bloating

SPC church

rolls

with

members

who give no evidence of the.

Well, thanks, Jenny and

continue to spread the word about iron sharpens iron radio and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania and beyond.

We have Bruce in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Who asks how can we Calvinistic Baptists go about in the most?

Winsome way to share the doctrines of grace with our Southern Baptist friends and family members.

Yeah,

in

fact.

Years ago, I Had organized and created a program called the

voice of Sovereign Grace that was hosted by a

group of Calvinistic churches that each had their turn to host the

program.

One night of the week it was a week it was a nightly show and there were five different churches that

each had their own night to host it and I created the

Opening announcements.

And In those opening announcements I defined in summary form the doctrines of grace

that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save

themselves and I've found that an interesting way to approach

someone who is against Calvinism or at least a caricature they have of it in their minds.

I Make that statement to them God alone said save sinners because sinners cannot even help save

themselves.

Which part of that question do you or that statement? Do you disagree with.

And then that will usually wind up in a conversation that reveals a person's?

Misunderstanding about the tension between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man

that actually reminds me.

That's right.

And One last question that I think is appropriate to enable you to summarize What you

most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this subject.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know how has this figure that you have written about?

Most touched your heart and

life

in regard

to

your

theology

and life as a

Christian

that

he Agonized

he he did it

in such a was he was He

he was

never

great.

And by the way, the next time we have you back on the program.

Remember what you're doing right now because your voice sounds a lot better right now.

You were kind of going in and out of Clarity with the audio there on your phone.

So I don't know if you're doing anything different, but you sound a lot more clearer right now.

So just remember.

Well, uh, please conclude the program with what

you want our listeners to leave the broadcast with and have Them remain haven't

remaining with them in their hearts and minds.

Yeah, because of the fact that the last time we really

drifted away with connected but not necessarily directly related.

Subjects.

So

if you

know any

Calvinistic

Baptist

pastors

You would just simply like to encourage.

To encourage to stay the course.

Not being

ashamed

praise God.

And for anybody wanting

to look up the church.

Where our guest is a pastor Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

The website is PR BC 1689 org PRB C 1

6 8 9 org.

And of course if you want to order the book go to solid ground books calm.

Solid ground books calm.

I want to thank you so much Kurt if you could hold on the line.

I'd like to schedule you for another interview in the near future and I want to thank you for being our guest today.

I want to thank the Reverend buzz Taylor for being our co -host today.

I want to thank all of you who listened especially those of you who wrote in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior.

Than you are a sinner.