July 13, 2017 Show with Tim Challies on “Visual Theology: Seeing & Understanding the Truth About God” PLUS Kurt M. Smith on “Holding Georgia for Geneva: Patrick Hues Mell & the Baptist Defense For Calvinistic Orthodoxy”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew henry said that in this passage quote We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with And directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions Now here's our host chris arnton

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Good afternoon cumberland county pennsylvania lake city florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

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Who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com? This is chris arnton your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy thursday on this 13th day of july 2017 and we have today for the first hour

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Returning as our guest tim challis Who's author blogger book reviewer for world magazine and co -founder of cruciform press?

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He's going to be addressing the theme visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about god during the second hour

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We have returning to our program curt m smith author and pastor of providence reformed baptist church of pine mountain alabama

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He is going to be continuing a discussion that we began recently on iron sharpens iron on Holding georgia for geneva patrick hughes mel and the baptist defense for calvinistic orthodoxy

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We'll also be talking about the 2018 g3 conference that's coming up where our first guest

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Tim challis is one of many speakers on the roster But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio tim challis

02:25

Thanks for having me here And in that in studio with me is my co -host the reverend buzz taylor.

02:32

Hello. Once again, good to be here And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own

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Our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com. C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com

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And please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence

02:53

If you live outside of the usa and uh Tell us before we even go into the subject matter of the book that you have written uh that you've co -authored uh along with josh byers

03:09

Uh, tell us something about the primary focus of your writing ministry. I know I know that it has very often a lot to do with a christian and uh his involvement with computer technology and so on but what are the

03:23

Other themes that you are primarily focused on in your ministry Yeah, primarily i'm writing about the christian life

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And so I think i'm a pretty normal regular person living out a pretty normal regular christian life And I just take time to write about that and to write things that I hope will be helpful to other people as we

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Try to grow in holiness as we grow toward the lord amen And uh, what would be if you wanted to describe it in a nutshell, what would be your theological persuasion if you would

03:53

I guess reform baptist would be a handy little uh, Uh way of summarizing a little bit of theological shorthand if you will great and where do you fellowship there in canada?

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At grace fellowship church. So that's a uh reform baptist church here in town. And i've been there for I guess about uh 11 years now and have been an elder there for the past six or seven

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Great, and we will be giving our listeners Contact information about that fellowship and all the other contact information

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That you need to know about tim challey's a little bit later on in the broadcast

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But today we are discussing primarily your book visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about god

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And your publisher Has given us, uh an overview of this

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We live in a visual culture today people increasingly Rely upon visuals to help them understand new and difficult concepts the rise and stunning popularity

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Of the internet infographic has given us a new way in which to convey data concepts and ideas

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But the visual portrayal of truth is not a novel idea Indeed god himself used visuals to teach truth to his people

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The tabernacle of the old testament was a visual representation of man's distance from god and god's

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Condescension to his people each part of the tabernacle was meant to display something of man's treason against god

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And god's kind response Likewise the sacraments of the new testament are visual representations of man's sin and god's response

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Even the cross was both reality and a visual demonstration as teachers and lovers of sound theology

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Challies and buyers have a deep desire to convey the concepts and principles of systematic theology in a fresh beautiful And informative way in this book

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They have made the deepest truths of the bible accessible in a way that can be said and understood by a visual generation and There is something interesting about this concept of visual theology

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Because you have a disagreement as you must know amongst Even like -minded brethren in christ who are theologically reformed very conservative

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You have those who want to make much use Of the visual technology that is available uh to us today, and then you have others that are squeamish about it, they

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They don't like overhead projectors. They uh want to stick with the hymnal they want to They don't want the bible verses uh

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On the wall of the church for everyone to read together They want to have bibles in the hands of all the congregants and they are leery about things that they might either rightly or wrongly

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View as an intrusion on the regulative principle of worship things that are foreign to the scriptures that are now being added to what we are doing

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Always with good motives, of course, we assume but how do you respond to that that tug of war that's going on?

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Yeah, I'd want to distinguish there between Visuals used in worship and visuals used in learning and so In worship,

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I understand some people adhere strongly to the regulative principle and and they should if that's their conviction

07:26

Then absolutely they should not integrate visuals into their worship services Other people just for other reasons don't use visuals and in my church.

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We do not display visuals during the worship service but we may

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Display them during teaching so not during the sermon But maybe on a wednesday evening or an evening service where we're doing more of a teaching kind of thing

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Then yeah, we would find visuals can be a helpful supplement So, um, I think the distinction really comes down to whether this is the gathered worship of the local church or this is a less formal teaching

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Uh situation now when you uh as a church do what you just described Where you only are using the visual?

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aids during studies Times is that because you are convicted that to introduce these things would be wrong or are you just trying to accommodate?

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The desires of some of the folks in worship services, uh, either who are members or may who may visit because i'm wondering if you would actually

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Criticize those churches that do use those things in worship Yeah, I would not say it's wrong, but I would say in our context.

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We think it would be unwise Uh, so i'd want to distinguish between whether something is biblically forbidden

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And we do not adhere to the regulative principle Um, therefore we would not say these things are forbidden, but that doesn't mean it's wise

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It doesn't mean it's the right thing for our church to do or the wisest thing for our church to do So we believe when it comes to singing we're not at all opposed to powerpoint

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We do not have a facility that can handle powerpoint right now Just the facility we rent that we're in we can't do it

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And so we don't we haven't even had to really go down that trail and then during sermons We would not want to project things during the sermon

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We would not want to project images or play little movie clips or something. We think that would be Unhelpful because we want people to be able to to hear to listen to the word as it's preached and not to be um

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Distracted or not to be entertained by by images. So even good images that that Might be helpful.

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We still want to avoid And do you have a position on Uh the use of images in regard to paintings and sculpture that depict christ

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There is a divide as you know, even amongst again, uh, even amongst brethren in christ

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In the same theologically reformed camp perhaps even in the same pew at church who have disagreements over whether or not we can have pictures of jesus

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Uh in books on the walls of the church uh, even uh, you know stained glass windows with these, uh, sometimes very breathtaking and beautiful beautiful pieces of artwork and uh, you have those both in the roman catholic church and in some of the uh, high liturgical protestant churches who would say that the churches use these things

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For the very reasons that you believe visual aids have a proper place to teach uh those and they will make the claim that that was especially true in a time when

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Illiteracy was a far greater problem than it is today. But how do you react to that that aspect of the discussion?

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Sure, and if you go back to something like the heidelberg catechism I believe they refer to it as books for the laity right which is the way these images were presented

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These people are not literate. Therefore. We need to give them images in order to teach them truth

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And the reformation came along and got rid of the images and said we don't need books for the lady We need the book for the lady and as we preach it as we give to people

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Scripture in the common tongue and as we then preach exposit that scripture, they won't need images

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They'll be drawn to the word. They'll be fascinated by the word and taught by the word which is exactly what happened

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The the reformation was first a biblical reformation of preaching Reformation of the word.

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Uh, reverend buzz taylor has a comment for you Well, you you were referring to uh, the fact that that god even used uh imagery in the old testament and so forth

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Uh, i'm not exactly sure What kind of imagery you're i mean, I understand in the old testament. There was imagery with the tabernacle and everything but uh i'm trying to equate this with the church history, uh, are you talking for example things like uh,

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When I took one on my churches, they had two pulpits And I didn't realize at first why they had two pulpits and then

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I found out, you know, there was imagery there of uh, One was the word of man and the other one was where you read the scriptures from that was the word of god and other things like that Preachers wearing robes and things.

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Are you talking about these kinds of things? I'm not quite sure Where we're going with this Sure, well, let me go back to the the question

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I was asked before which is would I Allow pictures or would I want to see pictures of christ and absolutely

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I would not Um, I would say especially pictures of the triune god Um the god who must not be depicted and cannot be depicted

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Uh, so I do not believe we should represent him in a visual form where you'd say this is god

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And so my big argument with the movie the shack was not the the theology of the shack

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It was the very idea that they would say this is god As a human figure this is the holy spirit as a human figure

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When it comes to jesus christ because he is human he took on flesh

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He does have a body and so it's different in that sense, which is why some protestants and christians are

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In good conscience can present him, but I was raised in the dutch reform tradition I'm baptistic now i was raised in that tradition and i've never been able to overcome or wanted to overcome what

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I was taught then Which is it is wrong to depict Any of the trinity in physical form?

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So when i'm talking about visual representations, i'm talking let's go back to Uh, let's go back to the tabernacle where god wanted to teach his people

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About himself and to teach his people about what he was accomplishing and would accomplish in the world

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So what god could have done is given them truth written out in words But instead he told them to erect this tabernacle and every part of the tabernacle taught something

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Visually, so as you looked at the tabernacle, you would see it is closed off You'd see even first it's right in the center of god's people

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They're encamped all the way around it and god's at the center and then you would see it is walled off Which means not just anyone can go strolling in this place is set apart

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As you went into the courtyard, you would see a giant altar You would see wash basins if you went into the the most holy place

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Which of course you couldn't you would see certain things in there if you went into the most holy place you'd see Here's a curtain the cover the color of blood and on that curtain.

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We've got cherubim Those are clearly warning you away that you cannot come into this place

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And so everything was meant to teach a truth beyond itself as smoke went up It was meant to teach you as as animals were slaughtered.

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It was meant to teach you and so that is visual theology God never said That a lot of those things he just gave them in picture form and so god teaches through words.

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God also teaches through Images, which is where word supper and baptism come in, right? We have words and we have pictures side by side and together they teach truth

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And we have a listener in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania rose who says hello brother tim,

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I really enjoy your work May I ask the following? Jesus was the master of visual theology with his use of parables

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Is this something you discuss in your book brother? Arnson next thing, you know, you'll have to entitle this show with jesus use powerpoint um

15:13

Yeah, well that's interesting but jesus obviously, uh didn't have flash cards when he was giving the parables he was giving

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Uh us mental pictures with words, but if you could comment on that Yeah, so I think what you just said is true.

15:27

Jesus didn't um draw pictures. He didn't show movies. He didn't create diagrams he did use illustration and that's very similar to what pastors do today and I do think the form of parable is

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Underutilized today, right? It was so precious to jesus. He used it so often. He would take something very common that everybody knew

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Everybody understood the context of it and he would use that as an opportunity to teach I don't think we really use that form today

15:57

And I think we could and in that way we would illustrate a lost sheep and there's something we can learn from that a lost

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Coin, there's something we can learn from that I would say it's a little different from what i'm attempting to do in this book and Josh my co -author is attempting to do in this book, which is create illustrations

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Create graphics that as you look at them, they teach you something They're instructive just in and of themselves and then you read the words that go with them and you learn even more

16:26

Great. Well, guess what rose, uh, you have won a free copy of visual theology

16:33

Seeing and understanding the truth about god by tim challis and josh byers Compliments of zondervan and also compliments of cumberland valley bible book service cv for cumberland valley

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Bbs for bible book service. We'll be shipping That book out to you. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in harrisburg, pennsylvania

16:53

And we thank you for contributing another excellent question on iron sharpens iron radio

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And let's see. We have another Uh question here we have jenny in ben salem, pennsylvania

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Uh, mr. Challis in your experience is the mind more graphically oriented

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So as to draw better analogies or relations between objects or as in your book

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The various points concerning theological doctrines as opposed to just listing the facts concerning various doctrines uh

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I'm, not sure that I Completely understand the question, but I do think our minds work in both ways now

17:38

Let's be clear. God has given us his truth in his word. Uh, jesus christ came as the word and so We we we are people of the word and we will always be

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I trust and hope people who are About reading the bible and preaching the bible and singing the bible and praying the bible

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We are word -centered people but as we learn as you know, we saw in the life of jesus there is this this sense in which if when we bring pictures to our minds or Um somehow use illustrations that really helps us learn that that aids us that assists us

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That's just the way god has made us to be Visual people that's the power of illustration And so I believe very strongly in the preaching form that there's power and beauty and necessity in preaching god's word

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I don't think we need pictures. We need Images or movies to to supplement that or to make it any better, but I still think there's a real place for Illustrations in other teaching contexts.

18:34

It helps certain people and I think it helps us both learn and to teach Amen and i'm uh going back to something you said earlier i'm sure or at least i'm guessing

18:45

That you would have no objection to a church watching a movie or inviting

18:51

The neighbors of the church family friends and loved ones To the actual building where you worship as long as it's not during a worship service

19:00

So i'm assuming that you would agree with that Um, probably though i'm not sure it's something our church would do

19:07

I think we would want to find other ways of inviting people in and i'm not sure that I could think of a movie

19:12

Where I want to invite neighbors to come and see it. I should have clarified i'm speaking about like for instance a educational christian

19:20

Document documentary or even a movie a drama that is Accurately portraying

19:28

Biblical events and characters and of course if you did not use the uh

19:33

If you did not use the depiction of christ in the movie or something that might violate your conscience But if you're just talking about The apostles and so on in a movie would that be uh, acceptable to you?

19:44

Sure, yeah again, I don't think it's something we would do in our church. This is not the way we operate

19:50

It's not something that would cross our minds, but we wouldn't have a biblical objection to it. No Okay, uh, thank you.

19:56

Jenny and if you wanted to send in a clarifying email, uh regarding your question, that would be fine but if uh, tim's uh answer was sufficient for you, uh, we will uh,

20:09

Move on to another listener. We have a lot of listeners actually writing in questions for you Tim you're obviously popular with the iron trip and xyron audience

20:16

But uh, jenny, you've also won a free copy of visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about god compliments of zondervan and compliments of carmelin valley bible book service cv

20:27

Bbs .com please make sure we have your full mailing address. So cvbbs .com

20:33

Can ship out? Uh a copy of that book to you Uh, let's see we have uh scott in brian, ohio

20:45

And scott in brian, ohio. I have to enlarge the font This is uh very much in keeping with our visual theology discussion because I could barely read this

20:56

I have to enlarge his email here Thank you. Chris for bringing. Mr. Challis to your program

21:01

I have read his blogs and reviews for several years and learn a lot Please ask tim how he suggests talking to fellow christians who disagree about heresies like the shack

21:11

Or areas of a contention in the church about tithing Being ceremonial and no longer necessary.

21:18

The church makes it sound like tithing Is commanded not a personal choice and of course Our listener scott just listed about five different one -hour programs that we could do

21:28

But if you want to answer to the best of your ability, uh, you could uh respond to scott and brian, ohio sure, so I think um

21:38

There's a lot that comes into play and usually it's kind of taken in a situation by situation basis

21:44

But you know, you've got to understand first is this really heresy or is this just disagreement because christians do disagree about Quite a lot some of those are even significant disagreements, but they're still not heresies

21:55

You have to know what you're you're dealing with and then I think you know How close are you to that person? Are you the person to speak about this with that person?

22:03

um But oftentimes I just don't think it's worth having those discussions There's if you're going after someone and really confronting them really addressing them strongly

22:14

It may not be the time If you're close to them if you've got a good relationship Then by all means if you're truly afraid for their soul then by all means but I think we can be we who really value sound doctrine we who are

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You know really interested in helping people understand what's true and in reacting against some of the nonsense that's within the christian world

22:34

I do think we have to be careful to gain credibility In a person's life and then we'll be able to speak all the more with more force with more wisdom

22:45

So I think just being careful with some of those things Well, thank you scott in brian, ohio.

22:52

You've also won a free copy of tim challey's book visual theology So, please make sure we have your full mailing address

23:00

So cv bbs .com can ship that out to you and we thank zondervan once again for being so generous

23:06

To provide us with copies of tim's book We have a fellow author uh, tim

23:13

Uh who has now submitted a question an author that I have had on this program many times her name is.

23:19

Dr. Latane c scott And she's from albuquerque, new mexico a former mormon

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Who by the grace and mercy of christ became a born -again believer And even wrote the classic work

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On mormonism known as the mormon mirage Yeah, and latane says tim.

23:38

Challey's daily email letter is one of the most valuable resources. I rely on By the way, did you pay her for this?

23:46

I I strongly urge any listeners to sign up for them He gives valuable links to interesting articles that I read and I link to on facebook they may they make me look

23:57

Smart even when i'm not feeling that way My facebook friends love them

24:03

Would tim please address these two questions? How has it worked for him to resign as a pastor and become a full -time writer supported by patrons?

24:13

I'm one of his patrons. I really appreciate him. That's the first question. She has All right

24:18

Um, yeah, so I was on staff at my church for about five years as associate pastor and really really enjoyed the work

24:25

I got to work there with my closest friend. Who's the senior pastor? And it was a real transition time for a church.

24:31

We were just kind of growing from a church plant to a fully independent church we were also growing from a pretty small church to a a bigger church and just required a lot of a lot of work a lot of building structures to try and support a greater number of people and Uh, so I think

24:48

I came in at a really important time and really enjoyed the work Um, but as the church grew up and the position grew at the same time the blog was growing up and that grew and so I had to choose between them

24:59

So I spoke to the other elders at the church there and determined that I would resign as associate pastor

25:05

But remain an elder there so I just wouldn't be on staff anymore And that was back in october 2015.

25:12

So it's coming up on two years and I really really enjoyed it I I miss a lot of parts of pastoral ministry.

25:18

I don't at all regret those years. They were wonderful Look back fondly, but I think uh,

25:24

I think it was the right decision and I really really enjoy life as a writer It's opened up a lot of possibilities being able to do it full -time instead of very part -time

25:32

Perhaps you could even just a little bit summarize what latane means By your being a full -time writer supported by patrons and that she is one of your patrons

25:43

Right, so, um the patronage model is one that has good roots in the christian faith

25:48

You look at the wesleys and whitfields and people like that they were able to do what they did because of patrons people who supported them and especially

25:57

Uh, the countess huntington is famous for having supported them, especially with her with her wealth.

26:03

And so, um I think more people today are realizing we may go back to that patronage model

26:09

Perhaps that would be wise for people who are in content creation in the arts and writing things like that to ask people to support

26:16

Them at low levels, but to have many people supporting at low levels And so that's what i've done through a site called patreon, uh people there can sign up to be patrons

26:24

And uh, so that's one of the the ways through which I raise support that allows me to to do what I do

26:29

And I hope that I then provide value content articles that that serve people like latane whom i'm very very grateful for their support

26:37

I've never seen the reverend buzz taylor's interest peak up so much Because I know that he's in the process of writing an eschatological book and sure could use support on his own

26:49

Uh, by the way latane Thank you so much for the excellent question and you have also won a copy of visual theology by our guest tim challis

26:58

And please make sure we have your full mailing address in albuquerque, new mexico Where cumberland valley bible book service can ship out a copy of the book

27:08

Uh, we're going to go to a question a question. We're going to go to a station break right now

27:14

And before we go to that break I thought i'd just read a brief question to you and you could think about it over the break and then respond when we return

27:26

Arnie in perry county, pennsylvania wants to know is that I have even noticed that in many reformed protestant churches

27:34

Especially those that are a bit more liturgical that they will use symbolism for the trinity

27:41

Such as a crown for the father a dove for the holy spirit and a lamb for jesus

27:48

If you could comment as to whether or not you think this is appropriate imagery for christians to use

27:54

And we will be returning right after these messages To get tim challis answer and to do further discuss his book

28:03

Visual theology don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors of iron sharpens iron radio

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Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor

33:45

Welcome back. This is chris arnes And if you just tuned us in our guest for the first hour on iron sharpens iron

33:52

Is tim challis author blogger book reviewer for world magazine and co -founder of cruciform press

33:58

He is discussing the theme of visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about god and upcoming in our second hour

34:05

We will have kurt m smith on the program. He's an author and pastor of providence reform baptist church

34:11

Of pine mountain alabama and he's going to be continuing a discussion we began several weeks ago

34:17

On holding georgia for geneva patrick hughes mill And the baptist defense for calvinistic orthodoxy

34:24

If you'd like to join us with a question right now for tim challis on visual orthodoxy Of visual theology.

34:31

I'm, sorry Our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com Chris arn zen at gmail .com

34:38

before the break as you know, tim We had arnie in perry county, pennsylvania who was asking you about the legitimacy

34:46

Of some churches even some reform churches that use symbols like a crown a lamb and a dove to depict the trinity if you could comment on your

34:55

Uh your feeling or your view I should say we should never be talking about our feelings Your your opinion about this, uh from the scriptures

35:04

Yeah, I think we have to distinguish perhaps between a visual representation where you say this is god versus one that is uh, maybe a depiction of I don't know.

35:16

This is um describing god. Let me let me say this There's a lot of things we assume by virtue of the english language.

35:23

So We see these symbols g -o -d and we say okay, that's that's god that means god, but we might

35:31

Just as well speak another language which uses pictograms in which case you would need some sort of symbol that communicates

35:37

God, so in the english language It's easy to say the only proper way of speaking about god is to use three letters string them together

35:43

That's god, but even that is a representation and then in some languages You just need to get even more visual there would be a kind of picture that describes god

35:52

So, um, that's very different from saying this is god. I love a shack or I love a golden calf

35:59

You know, this is the god that delivered you from egypt So I think we have to have different distinctions along the way

36:05

Uh, what we're trying to do in our book what we've attempted to do is to talk about god about the word of god about The character of god about the gospel of god and to use some illustrations to help people

36:17

Understand it, but never would we portray god say this is god and we would also be very careful with things like Here's a three -leaf clover and this describes the trinity because we know

36:27

All of those illustrations really come short So I think there's a lot of wisdom involved in trying to in being humble with the things that simply cannot be pictured

36:38

Yeah, you made a good point there about the written word because the I believe some of the asian

36:45

Languages are are miniature pictures and they're they're wording there Right and so their understanding of god would be more of a picture -based understanding and that would have to be okay within the limits of Of language that's not the same as creating a golden cap and saying this is god or you know

37:03

Showing the jesus film and saying this is jesus That's a different category that needs to be understood differently and uh and considered differently

37:11

Well, thank you arnie in perry county pennsylvania You've also won a free copy of visuals theology as seeing and understanding the truth about god compliments of zondervan publishing

37:23

And also compliments of cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com So, please give us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

37:32

could ship that out to you and uh, that isn't there is an interesting debate about uh the second commandment and um

37:44

There are some who would say It is appropriate To have a painting of jesus

37:50

Uh because of the fact uh that the commandment is clearly talking about bowing down to and worshiping the images because if it was not

38:00

Specifically talking about bowing down to and worshiping the images. We should not ever even have a painting of a bird or an animal in our home or anywhere in our possession because The commandment does include a prohibition to making images of anything

38:19

On the earth the sky above or in the sea, etc But it's obviously in connection with bowing down to these images

38:28

Sure, and we need to be very very careful with images just acknowledging the the weakness of the human mind

38:34

So the problem with depicting god, let's say you go ahead and present god the father that image will lie

38:42

It will lie just by the fact that it exists right because god cannot be pictured Okay, so now we go to jesus and we create a picture of jesus that image too will lie

38:52

It may communicate some things that are true So you think about that that laughing jesus picture a lot of people like to put on their walls

38:58

You can buy it at your your christmas book store sure communicate something. That's true about jesus

39:03

It communicates that jesus was truly human that i'm sure he did laugh with his friends, right?

39:09

He was in his own way one of the guys in a group of 12 and and that's true It communicates something but it also communicates things that are false

39:17

Even if it's the tone of his skin or the look of his face. I mean, he's always handsome. Nobody makes an ugly jesus

39:25

Usually far lighter skin than he probably was and so all of those images in their own way also communicate things that are

39:33

Untrue so we need to be very careful very aware of our own weaknesses And and so you think about the jesus of the shack you think about the jesus of the passion of the christ

39:43

Your mind will be formed your understanding of jesus will be formed by seeing those things

39:50

And so you've got to be very very careful that you're not Assuming things about jesus or believing things about jesus now that are untrue because they've come through images

40:01

Yes, excellent. And by the way, I don't have the date, uh in my at my fingertips right now

40:08

Uh, but if anybody wants to email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com after the program is over I do have information

40:16

Somewhere from my friend. Dr. Tony costa Who is professor of apologetics at toronto baptist seminary?

40:23

He is having unless it has already occurred because I just heard about this recently. He's having a debate on this very subject with a roman catholic on venerating images

40:34

Uh, so if you could, uh, if you are interested in that email me later and put tony costa in the subject line

40:41

In fact, I arranged a debate on this issue years ago between my friend. Dr James lor white of alpha omega ministries and patrick madrid of envoy magazine a roman catholic

40:52

Apologist and they debated on this issue and i'm sure you could find that At aomin .org,

40:59

that's the website for alpha and omega ministries aomin .org And we have uh murray in kinross scotland

41:10

He says thinking of things visual and what we can learn and understand from it.

41:17

What exactly is a holy? kiss As in romans chapter 16 verse 16 greet one another with a holy kiss

41:25

I don't think i've ever seen believers kiss each other in a particular holy way

41:32

All right, uh if you could respond to murray's, uh question Yeah, i've been to scotland enough times to know there's not a lot of a mouse on cheek greetings

41:46

My wife and her family are scots as well And so one of the things I love about scotland is that no one ever feels the need to throw their arms around you that suits

41:53

Me just fine. Um That was a particular form if I understand correctly, that was a particular form of greeting

42:01

That is how people greet one another you go to italy today You might see something like it right where people are doing the the cheek -to -cheek kiss kind of thing

42:09

And so that was a form of greeting. He was just telling people to to greet one another in that way I don't think we have

42:15

I don't think we obey that commandment today by Kissing one another we obey that commandment today by greeting one another in whatever way is appropriate

42:24

And in whatever way shows true love and true affection that that brother -to -sister brother -to -brother sister -to -sister kind of Love that we're to have for one another so that might be hugging that might be handshaking

42:35

That might be a whole host of things and that's part of the beauty of culture is we all do these things differently

42:41

And part of the joy of of traveling and experiencing other cultures is to see how other christians do these things.

42:47

So Um, yeah, I don't think we're under any obligation to kiss one another Today I sure hope not.

42:57

It's just not my you know, yes, well, uh As you know or may know dr.

43:02

James r white who is of scottish heritage He's always has a look of panic on his face when people approach him and hug him

43:10

As did my My former pastor who just recently took a call To the uk david campbell who is a native scotsman

43:19

Uh, he was not very fond of that I could tell when I'd I'd come up to him and give him a hug He looked like he wanted to call 9 -1 -1 or something

43:27

Right, but then here's the thing if you're going to go and minister in italy if you're going to go down to South america

43:36

You better learn to to hug and you better learn to kiss you better learn to get along with that in that way

43:42

You know i've had good conversations in toronto being the most multicultural city in the world We have people from all around the world in our church and you you see how people sort of negotiate through these things here

43:52

What here's what i'm comfortable with here's what you're comfortable with and we're going to find ways of loving one another

43:58

Even though those can be very very different. I might seem overbearing to you. You might seem standoffish to me

44:04

We've got to learn to love one another despite those cultural barriers and I bet in the new testament church jews and gentiles probably had different ways of greeting one another and they just had to work out that stuff and The gospel gave them both the motive and the ability to do that Yes, and uh, we um, let's see we have uh

44:27

We have cj in lindenhurst long island, new york Do you think it is inappropriate for a church even if they were to have a belief?

44:37

That portraits of jesus are acceptable to have him depicted as you mentioned earlier as being strikingly handsome

44:44

For we read in isaiah 53 too That he grew up before him Like a tender shoot and like a root out of parched ground

44:52

He is no stately form or majesty that we would look upon him Nor appearance that we would be attracted to him

45:02

Right. So this is where I think this is this is where we find why so many people don't want images of jesus

45:08

Why they believe they're they're wrong? So even if they're not specifically forbidden by the second commandment and as you've indicated chris, there's lots of debate about that But even if we we say they're allowable perhaps they're just very unwise because we don't know what jesus looked like I mean, we know he was

45:26

Not much to look at middle eastern man from the first century, but that's all we're going on And so we really don't have much to go on So again, any image we create will help in some ways and hinder in others far better Perhaps just to read the word and to focus on what the bible tells us very very clearly

45:44

About him Obviously god did not believe that we needed to know what jesus looked like In order to love him in order to serve him in order to put our faith in him in order to trust in his return

45:55

We just don't need to know what jesus looked like What we do need to know is who he really is and what he's really done and so so focus on those things

46:07

This uh has become uh somewhat popular, I don't know how popular but it's probably starting in the 1960s or 70s, it may have begun earlier, but there have been black christian artists or black christians or churches that are

46:25

Dominated by by african -american congregants who have used black portraits of jesus and Perhaps not to uh to really signify

46:40

That they really believe jesus Was of african descent or that he was black because if they are knowledgeable christians, they would know that he is jewish uh, but um

46:54

If if there was a church that for instance wanted to give an image That uh was in contrast, let's say like in the days of apartheid in south africa where Depicting a white jesus would be something that might strike unnecessary terror in young people perhaps or have a negative connotation

47:17

Would it be appropriate under that kind of circumstance to use a portrait of a black jesus or is this just another?

47:24

wrong use of imagery Yeah, just another wrong use of imagery and I would say the basic human condition

47:31

Is that we want to create god in our own image, right? That's essentially what the second commandment is about not creating an image of god that we want

47:41

But worshiping god as he is and by definition of sinful people god is not who we want him to be

47:46

Right god is other than what we think we need until he saves us And then of course we realize all right, this is the only god

47:54

I need this This is the god the god who is is the god I need and so our basic human condition is to create a god

48:01

In my own image. Well, if you're creating a black jesus, or if you're creating a white jesus, right if you're creating your your

48:08

Jesus with big muscles and nice hair and white skin either way you're creating one who is appealing to you

48:15

That's not the point of jesus. Jesus is not meant to appeal to us on any earthly level

48:21

Like that we need to understand who jesus really is and then determine will we love and trust and put our faith in that jesus

48:28

So don't create a jesus that's in your own image. That is what we love to do

48:33

That's what we all long to do in our natural condition. Yeah, I just saw recently Uh, I forget where I saw it might have been on the news or something

48:42

Where someone created a sculpture? of a crucifix of christ on the cross

48:48

And the image of christ looked like he was on steroids. I mean he was like, uh, arnold arnold schwarzenegger in his prime uh, which is a kind of absurd because when you think of Uh his state his his his physical state before he was executed.

49:05

He would have far he would have not resembled that at all Right. Yeah. No, he was a carpenter and so he probably was strong and he he walked a lot

49:14

It was probably fit, you know, all that is true, but that that's not the point, right? that's that's not what what the bible is calling us to do is to image him as And then to to follow him based on how appealing he is or to hope that other people respond to him based on how appealing

49:30

He is the gospel repulses People until the holy spirit has done his work within them

49:36

We have a new our first time questioner, uh, daniel from san jose, california

49:44

And he says Uh, I started listening late in the show. So my question may have been asked already.

49:50

Is there a disadvantage to having visuals? For example when praying I do want I do not want to have a visual of the picture

49:58

Commonly known as jesus in my mind when at the throne of grace is this

50:04

Or could that be a form of idolatry? Thank you for your ministries brothers Yeah, absolutely that could be if you're picturing that kind of jesus who makes you comfortable makes you feel good

50:16

Then yeah, that is idolatry. You're picturing a god who is not and imagining that he is

50:22

I want to be clear that in the book we've written we are trying to illustrate truth about god not to illustrate god himself

50:30

And I would say those are very very different things and there's a long heritage of people having done as we talked already about The tabernacle where instead of god giving truth in the form of here's what's true about me.

50:41

He gave them something to picture and God instead of giving us a long discourse on baptism.

50:48

Here is a systematic theology Of conversion and washing of regeneration all that he gives us baptism as a picture of it

50:55

And so and then through the christian history there have been truth has often been illustrated as well

51:00

So we're just trying to to coast in on that and to try to um to explain truth about god

51:08

Those ways, uh buzz taylor has a question or comment. Uh, i'm i'm going to refer back to um

51:14

Of course on logic, I I believe some of this came out of uh, Isaac watts's book and some

51:21

I think came from r .c. Sproul. I can't remember where all came from but in regards to that last question

51:28

Uh when we uh envision jesus Uh, we're not necessarily

51:34

Being idolatrous, but our mind has to picture something. I mean They they use the example of you know, picture a horse

51:42

You can you everybody that's listening right now is picturing a horse in their mind Well, is it brown? Is it black?

51:48

Does it have long fur short fur? You know, what kind of horse is it? Well, it doesn't matter. We have this idea of Horseness In our minds.

51:56

Well, how you know When we're thinking of jesus Our minds are automatically going to go to some kind of an image aren't isn't it?

52:07

Well, I hope it's not going to a horse I'm, not saying it. All right. Well if you're saying, you know tim if you could respond to that I wouldn't want to call just the fact that my mind has to put something in that place.

52:18

All right. Okay, tim Uh, I don't think it has to I mean when I when I think holy spirit

52:23

I don't picture anything because there's nothing to picture. So for jesus we have a yes, he's human

52:29

He he became human and he remains human and so he has form he has a body

52:34

He has a human body a normal male human body I don't find that when I think about jesus or I pray to jesus i'm necessarily picturing jesus, but even then

52:44

Okay, we can picture it You know like you said we have some idea of his humanity in our mind Just like we have the idea of hoarseness in our mind

52:51

I don't think there's value in then really trying to tease out that picture of jesus spending a lot of time

52:56

Meditating on what does my jesus look like right? The idea is he's human. He is god

53:02

We we pray to him as he is we worship him as he is, but I don't think that involves Necessarily picturing him and trying to come up with a vivid image in our mind

53:12

I was not referring to even a a conscious effort, uh as in a studied effort but just the idea that our minds are you know, if we uh

53:22

Picture jesus, uh preaching on the mount of olives in our mind. He has some kind of a form

53:27

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, of course and you know, I I maybe it's a kind of ben -hur thing right where there's someone there right

53:38

Sort of the way it works for a lot of us. We we believe he is we know he's human But we just haven't formed that that full picture of him

53:46

What I don't want to see is jim caviezel or somebody else who's played jesus Um to start seeing this human being who's an actor

53:55

Um to to take his place. That's where I think we've gotten into a realm that's very unhelpful

54:00

Okay, we have one more we have time for one more quick question This is joe in slovenia who says there are many wilderness ministries today and their methodology of leading groups into wilderness

54:11

Areas to capitalize on the visuals of creation in wild spaces in is gaining popularity

54:18

What could you say about this approach to evangelism and discipleship for a visual theology perspective? Are there specific common?

54:26

commendations and warnings That you would give Yeah, i'm not i'm not too familiar with with exactly

54:35

What he means there. I probably have to know more details about them But when we we read the bible, especially when you read the psalms

54:42

We come face to face often with people praising god for what he's done in creation, right?

54:47

So we see that david Heavens declare the glory of god the sky above proclaims his handiwork, right?

54:53

So david was clearly going outdoors and he was looking up and he was praising god

54:58

God has given us two books, right? He's given us the book of Revelation natural revelation and he's given us the book of special revelation that that book of natural revelation is creation

55:08

God teaches us truth about himself Through the world that he has created and david loved and appreciated that but then david also just reads psalm 19, right?

55:18

Then he goes to talk about god's law and how he loves god's law all psalm 119 same thing

55:24

So we as christians ought to be reading both of those books. We ought to be out in creation

55:29

Looking for evidence of god there. We're not looking for god in creation

55:34

We're not pantheist here, but we're looking at saying who but god could have done this look at the majesty of god

55:41

Look at the creative power of god. Look at the creativity Of god in creation

55:47

So if a group is going out and they're being led out there to to see god's handiwork and praise god

55:52

Then by all means but I fear often there's other agendas at play and they're actually going out to have more of a mystical

55:58

Experience and I think that's where we would need to be very very careful Well, thank you joe in slovenia and especially thank you for the american address where we can have cumberland valley bible book service ship

56:09

This book much more affordably to you. That's visual theology seeing and understanding the truth about god by our guest tim challis

56:18

And also by josh byers compliments of zondervan publishing and compliments of cumberland valley bible book service

56:24

And if anybody else has won this book by writing in Your question, uh, please submit to us your full mailing address so we can have that book shipped out to you as well

56:34

I want to thank you tim challis. I know that your website is challis .com, correct? That's correct.

56:40

Yeah challies .com And uh also a cruciform press

56:47

A publishing house that tim is involved in that website is cruciformpress .com

56:52

Any other contact information you care to give? No, that's great. Just uh, check out the site if there's anything you want to ask

56:58

I've got a contact form there and don't forget the fact that tim challis is one of the speakers at the g3 conference coming up january 18th through the 20th in atlanta, georgia

57:11

And uh tim is one of many speakers there on the subject of knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship

57:17

That website is g3 conference .com g3 conference .com Thanks tim, and we look forward to having you back on the program very soon.

57:25

That would be great. Thanks for having me All righty. God bless And we uh want you to stay tuned folks

57:31

Don't go away because curt m smith is going to be joining us any moment now And curt m smith as we said earlier

57:39

Is going to be discussing Uh of the subject that we began with curt, uh, not long ago uh, and that subject, uh is about uh, the defense of calvinistic

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Baptist orthodoxy in the southern baptist convention, but don't go away We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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Or visit chef exclusive .com. That's chef exclusive .com Welcome back

01:07:45

This is chris arnds and your host of iron sharpens iron radio if you just tuned us in our guest today for the second hour

01:07:53

Is kurt m smith and i'm looking forward to uh, Interviewing kurt smith again as he is returning

01:08:02

To the program for what i'm sure will be an excellent interview uh, we uh began this interview, uh a while back and then

01:08:12

Uh, we ran out of time because of the lister questions kind of took us in a different path as I recall

01:08:19

But we are going to be discussing holding georgia for geneva patrick hughes mel

01:08:25

And a baptist defense for calvinistic orthodoxy, but before we go to kurt we have to Uh do some housekeeping here and make some special announcements for our sponsors

01:08:40

First of all, we have an upcoming event That is being sponsored by our friends at the word of truth church in farmingville, long island, new york

01:08:51

The word of truth church of farmingville is pleased to announce the word of truth bible institute

01:08:58

Who will be offering two free classes this summer the book of romans and an old testament survey

01:09:05

Romans will meet on july 19th and july 26th from 7 to 9 p .m

01:09:11

And the old testament survey will meet the week of july 17th through the 21st from 7 to 9 p .m

01:09:18

With the exception of july 19th Where the class will be held from 5 to 7 p .m

01:09:24

At the word of truth church 10 55 portion road in farmingville, long island, new york

01:09:30

Registration is required by calling pastor bruce bennett at area code 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 14 that's 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 14

01:09:42

Even though the romans class has already started new students are still welcome The church website is wot church .com

01:09:50

That's wot for word of truth church .com. That's wot church .com

01:09:58

Then coming up in august From august 3rd through the 5th The fellowship conference new england is being held at the deering center community church in portland, maine featuring speakers such as pastor don curran of don curran ministries and of heart cry missionary society

01:10:16

The organization founded by paul washer pastor mack tomlinson a dear friend of mine is also speaking

01:10:23

He is an author and pastor of providence chapel in denton, texas Pastor jesse barrington is on the roster as well pastor of grace life church in dallas, texas

01:10:33

And pastor nate pickewitz will be speaking god willing Who is the pastor of harvest bible church in gilmont and ironworks new hampshire?

01:10:42

and the author of reviving new england if you would like to Join me at the fellowship conference new england go to fellowship conference new england .com

01:10:52

Fellowship conference new england .com then coming up in november from the 17th to the 18th the quakertown conference on reform theology is being held at the grace bible fellowship church in quakertown, pennsylvania

01:11:08

The theme is for still our ancient foe which is a line from martin luther's classic

01:11:13

Him a mighty fortress obviously referring to satan And the speakers at this conference include kent hughes peter jones.

01:11:20

Tom nettles. Dennis. Cahill And scott oliphant if you would like to register for the quakertown conference on reform theology

01:11:28

Go to quaker. I'm, sorry go to alliance .net .org Alliance .net .org

01:11:33

And then click on quakertown conference on reform theology and you could register there and then uh in january from the 17th through the 20th

01:11:43

The g3 conference returns to atlanta, georgia And on the 17th of january, it is exclusively a spanish -speaking edition of the g3 conference

01:11:53

Then the 18th through the 20th is the english conference including such speakers as stephen lawson vody balcom hb charles jr

01:12:00

Tim challis josh byas james white tom askell anthony mathenia michael kruger david miller paul tripp todd friel derrick thomas

01:12:08

And martha peace if you'd like to register for that conference go to g3 conference .com G3 conference .com.

01:12:15

The theme is knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship and please if you uh, either contact all of these

01:12:23

Organizations who are running these events just to get information or if you're registering for these events, please always let them know

01:12:29

That you heard about the events through chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio And now it comes to that real fun part that I have and I say that sarcastically because i'm very uncomfortable asking you for money but The sponsors of this program the advertisers who currently keep this program on the air have urged me

01:12:49

For quite a while to make frequent public appeals for donations and new advertising

01:12:54

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01:13:07

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01:14:03

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01:14:19

Chris arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line We are now joined by kurt m smith author and pastor of providence reform baptist church of pine mountain alabama

01:14:33

And we are continuing a discussion. We began recently on holding georgia for geneva

01:14:39

Patrick hughes mill and the baptist defense for calvinistic orthodoxy And I believe that book unlike the last time we were speaking

01:14:47

I believe that book is now in print And it's my honor and privilege to have you back on iron sharpens iron radio kurt m smith

01:14:56

Thanks chris, it's good to be back with you and in studio with me is my co -host the reverend buzz taylor And hello, it's good to have you on and why georgia?

01:15:05

I'm, not even sure. I don't even understand that question georgia Is Oh, well, he's gonna let us know about that.

01:15:15

Uh he he uh is Written about a very well known.

01:15:20

Well, not a very well known. I should say he's a very unknown a figure from church history that he wants to bring into the mindset of the church today and we have to rescue these obscure figures from Uh the past that have been lost over the the uh ages but uh, if you could, uh first of all kurt

01:15:45

Uh, let our listeners know something about providence reformed baptist church of pine mountain, alabama

01:15:52

Well Providence reformed baptist church. Uh, we are actually a newly constituted reformed baptist church as of last year although um the congregation

01:16:06

That charted the church were members of a of another church that had existed since 1899 um and When when they called me?

01:16:20

Uh under the former church, which was just last year in the spring um

01:16:26

When I when I moved here to alabama from georgia back in june They were very insistent on Wanting to see a reformation that had already begun before I got before I got here

01:16:40

Wanted to see that continued they wanted to see the name changed and and they really wanted to have just an entirely new constitution

01:16:48

Uh written and so all of last summer um, I spent

01:16:54

Forging what would be a new constitution on august 31st of last year. We We uh dissolved the former church and constituted a new church and then as of this year uh providence for mattress church

01:17:08

Became the the first church Alabama out of alabama to join the association of reformed baptist churches of america arca

01:17:18

Great and that uh is also the organization to which Uh the congregation where I am a member belongs grace baptist church

01:17:27

In carlisle pennsylvania. In fact, it was born out of that congregation where I am a member as I was right and We will be giving the contact information for uh our guests church uh providence reformed baptist church of pine mountain alabama

01:17:46

Towards the end of the program. So if you're visiting there you can Pay a visit if you're visiting alabama, you could pay a visit there or if you're already living there

01:17:55

You could pay a visit as well. And perhaps if you don't have a church home You will find one there or especially if you don't have a church home that is biblically sound but uh

01:18:07

This is one of those times as I was just uh Mentioning to buzz where we have these obscure figures unknown to the majority of christendom

01:18:18

That really need to be Uh brought out of the the darkness of their obscurity into the light of the modern age so that we can glean much from them

01:18:28

Uh that otherwise would be missed and we thank god for people like you who have discovered people

01:18:34

Uh, like the figure that we are discussing today patrick hughes mel uh

01:18:41

Tell us tell our listeners something about him as much of in summary form his background, uh

01:18:47

In regard to his own upbringing and his salvation And why we are discussing him today Well In in his day

01:18:57

In his generation, which would be the 19th century He was uh born in 1814.

01:19:05

He lived to 1887 Actually went home to be with the lord in january of 1887 um when

01:19:14

When when he was when he was serving as as a baptist pastor um

01:19:22

He was he he would become under god's providence Probably the one of the most well -known baptists in the south and In fact following his death in january of 1888 um the foreign mission board of the southern baptist convention testified

01:19:43

Of ph mel that his words and acts Were perhaps more thought of and more talked of than those of any baptist of the united states

01:19:53

And so he was a household name among baptists in the south and 19th century now now today, of course, he's

01:20:01

You know, he's been virtually forgotten um but um You know, but in his own day, he was um, he was very well known.

01:20:10

He served the southern baptist convention Longer than any president in their entire history

01:20:17

He was um the president of sbc for 17 years He also presided over the georgia baptist convention longer than any president in their history.

01:20:26

That was for 26 years um, not to mention he was a Pro prolific writer

01:20:33

Mostly a polemic author writing in defense of many biblical doctrines.

01:20:38

He was a long -standing pastor He was a respected college professor And he even served in his latter years as the president of the university of georgia

01:20:49

So he wore many different hats um Going back though to his earlier years

01:20:56

You mentioned about um his conversion Uh, he he did come up in a christian home

01:21:04

And of his of his parents it was his mother who would make the most indelible mark upon him um his mom she

01:21:18

She uh wrote th mail a letter Which I have quoted an excerpt from that in the in the publication

01:21:26

And it really gives you a very very good um picture of Just the kind of very strong christian mother that she was on her son um in this letter she expresses

01:21:46

How much she earnestly wishes that her son would be a minister

01:21:52

And yet she says I tremble at the idea of educating and devoting a son to the sacred profession without previously

01:22:01

Satisfactory evidence that his own soul was right with god She says my heart burns to see you in every sense of the word a true christian

01:22:11

I say this with anxiety and right with fear But I say it with earnest prayer for the real conversion Of your soul to god and with some hope

01:22:19

That he will hear the petition that I have endeavored to offer up for you for many years back.

01:22:24

I will repeat I can never consent for you to study for the ministry Until I have some satisfactory proof

01:22:32

Of your heart being turned to god in holy consistency and permanency of character and so You know, what a what a wonderful godly example ph.

01:22:43

Mel had at his mother Um to be you know pleading with him pleading with him to come to faith in christ

01:22:51

Well, praise god, I want to read just an excerpt from tom nettles ford of your book

01:22:59

Tom who has been a guest in this program many times on iron sharpens iron Especially the old iron sharpens iron broadcasting out of new york.

01:23:07

We've got to get tom back on again soon What a precious brother in christ and what a gift to the church he is

01:23:13

But he says that You my guest today kurt m smith argues along with patrick hughes mel

01:23:22

That calvinism gave the southern baptist convention its robust and unified theological beginning

01:23:29

A person who strays from calvinism strays from a major element of what it means to be baptist in addition

01:23:37

Smith follows mel in believing that commitment to the system should involve an open and Unembarrassed willingness to use the term.

01:23:46

I think he gives good reasons for his conviction The research is precisely pertinent to the purpose of the volume is thoroughly digested

01:23:55

And accurately presented in a clear and endearing style The footnotes carry some excellent material for extra reading along with substantial references that help seal the narrative

01:24:06

If you are undecided where you stand in the theological discussion Surrounding this subject.

01:24:12

I believe this volume will help you sort the issues out with the help of one of the most influential southern baptists during its generation its generation of genesis if you already captured if you are already captured by these truths

01:24:28

As inexhaustible food for the soul read this for your encouragement and distribute about five to friends

01:24:36

Who would benefit from this frank and honest discussion of vital christian truth and a faithful christian witness?

01:24:42

That's tom. J. Nettles of louisville, kentucky former faculty member at the southern baptist theological seminary in louisville, and uh, he brings he brings up something interesting in that forward because I frequently in fact much to the dismay of Of many of my listeners or at least a a portion of my listeners

01:25:06

I frequently bring up the term Calvinism and identify myself with that term and I not only get

01:25:14

Some measure of complaint from non -calvinists, but even some of my fellow reformed brethren

01:25:20

Will say to me well, you know, john calvin would never uh have agreed to use that term And he'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew that we were identifying

01:25:29

Ourselves today with his name. He doesn't even have a marked grave anywhere And we are to attribute our beliefs to christ alone

01:25:38

And not to mere mortal men such as ourselves And when I uh respond to folks like that, uh kurt

01:25:46

Uh, I basically say to them number one. I am not attributing uh these doctrines as having their

01:25:54

Genesis or their beginnings in the writings of john calvin. I thoroughly believe they're biblical or I would never believe in them

01:26:01

In fact, I believed in them By god's grace and mercy before I even knew who john calvin was

01:26:08

Uh when I was introduced to them, uh through a tract, uh george whitfield's letter

01:26:14

To john wesley on election and the lord used that tract not even the writings of george

01:26:21

Whitfield to convince me but he used the biblical references that george whitfield Brought up in his letter to john wesley but uh, isn't this just uh a shorthand that really can cut down a conversation from five hours to maybe an hour if we

01:26:38

I mean these people who think that we don't shouldn't use labels. They really Are typically using labels of their own anyway, and they're they the labels that they use sometimes

01:26:49

Are uh too Ambiguous or vague? Like for instance, uh people who say

01:26:55

I I just want to call myself a bible believing christian well, so do many of the cults so do

01:27:01

So so does anybody that believes that the bible is some kind of a valuable book and they claim to be a christian

01:27:07

And and they often have you know a whole assortment of heretical ideas, but if you could respond

01:27:15

Yeah, um, I I spent a great deal of time in the latter half of this publication uh, actually making it one of my primary practical points, uh in the end that if you are a

01:27:32

If you're a baptist pastor who is a calvinist? Then you should not be ashamed to post your colors and the

01:27:41

The argument in the case I make for that um Is actually threefold um, first of all

01:27:51

That if you preach the whole counsel of god's word You're going to have trouble. Anyway, that's just a given

01:27:58

What i'm seeing a lot today Among since the since the resurgence of calvinism has gained such momentum in the last 10 years

01:28:07

What i'm seeing a lot from young Southern baptist pastors who are calvinistic um, they

01:28:16

They want to stay away from the term so much because of how

01:28:21

You know fearful they are and to be fair to them. I mean, I understand that a bit on the receiving end of it

01:28:26

Where in local baptist churches or southern baptist churches? They they want to stay away from the word calvinism um

01:28:33

Being the cause of what would be a hostile situation And i've been there. I know what that's like.

01:28:39

So I I understand Understand their fear, of course the other fear that many of them have is they don't want to lose their livelihood either

01:28:46

And so the way that they reason is If we can just preach god's word never mention the term calvinism

01:28:55

Though when we come upon the great biblical doctrines of god's sovereignty election predestination We won't skirt around what's in plain sight of the text, but preach it just without saying calvinism and And so they think in reasoning this way that they'll avoid a church split and maybe even still keep their paycheck

01:29:13

Um, but when I go on to reason from that is one as I just said

01:29:18

You preach god's word. You're going to have trouble the bible makes that clear second Pastors must never be driven for purely and only financial gain

01:29:28

Uh first peter five makes that very clear That uh, we're to shepherd the flock of god not for shameful gain, but eagerly and and therefore, uh

01:29:38

A pastor should never let the potential loss of his livelihood Motivate and determine what he preaches from god's word.

01:29:44

But the third point I make in this whole This whole subject is that the calvinistic baptist pastors preach what the scriptures reveal concerning the doctrines of grace

01:29:55

Without calling it calvinism They will eventually have to answer the question Is what you're preaching calvinism?

01:30:04

The question is going to come up and especially in a day and age where we're living and certainly within the context of southern baptist life um

01:30:15

If if if any brother is preaching from the word of god On such doctrines as election or predestination or god's sovereignty and salvation

01:30:24

The question will come up. Are you preaching calvinism? And so what I go on to express with that to these brothers is

01:30:34

How should the calvinist baptist pastor answer such an inquiry? And if if if he's trying if he's been trying all along to avoid the c word

01:30:44

What should he do when a church member questions if this is what he's preaching? And my counsel is this best way to handle this for starters would be to ask the inquirer.

01:30:53

What do you think calvinism is? And depending on their answer that'll give the pastor a clear direction as how far and wide his answer or his response needs to be

01:31:04

But what must be avoided and this is something I stress because this has been a criticism from the other side

01:31:09

To calvinistic baptist, especially in the sbc What must be avoided is dishonesty with your church members concerning the term itself and the doctrines historically attached to it.

01:31:20

Yes. Yes You know, so so my so my main point is this if you're not educating your congregation as to what calvinism really is

01:31:29

Then someone else will be And more than likely what they're hearing from the other side will be false and so So what

01:31:39

I say in regards to that is when it comes to calvinism There's a host of false and slanderous rhetoric spreading all over the internet for curious eyes to see

01:31:49

And sadly many baptist pastors have been infected By this vitriolic poison being convinced.

01:31:56

It's true That is I should say many baptist churches. And so this is why Such congregations need to hear the truth about calvinism

01:32:05

In contradistinction to the falsehood that they've been sold and so calvinist baptist pastors.

01:32:12

They need to be open They need to be honest from the beginning of their ministries about the history the theology of calvinism

01:32:18

Especially its roots in baptist history furthermore They need to explain why they themselves are calvinists

01:32:25

And that can be done as I say in the booklet that can be done in a very gracious spirit without being obnoxious

01:32:32

Moreover by explaining their position and doctrine as calvinists They can unravel the straw men versions of calvinism that are being postured as the truth and in this way

01:32:43

I believe that baptist pastors who are calvinists can post their colors with integrity and humility While fulfilling their charge to guard god's sheep against false doctrine

01:32:52

That'll lead the disciples astray and the example that I give from ph mel's life is that when

01:33:01

When patrick use mel When he entered the pastorate of his church in georgia called antioch baptist church

01:33:08

He was very alarmed that so many of the members were drifting off into armenianism

01:33:14

So what did he do about that? Well, he raised the doctrinal flag Of calvinistic orthodoxy in a baptist context and he preached those doctrines of god's word to these very confused saints

01:33:27

And eventually the fog lifted and they understood and saw things scripturally that they had never seen before And we're going to go to a break right now and by the way curt

01:33:38

I forwarded one of our listeners Uh questions to you so you have it and can look it over during the break

01:33:46

Uh, just keep your eye open for a uh for an email from me that says question for curt m smith

01:33:53

That's a question from uh, jenny in ben salem, pennsylvania I will read it right now and you can answer it when we get back from the break

01:34:02

She says it has been Disconcerting for the past few years in the southern baptist convention

01:34:07

How the armenians have vociferously pushed against the calvinists and in my estimation are trying to rewrite history

01:34:15

By dogmatically issuing their statement a statement of the traditional southern baptist understanding of god's plan of salvation

01:34:22

Which essentially is promoting and pushing synergism over monergism al moeller has made it quite queer clear

01:34:30

That the southern baptist convention was initially driven by calvinists And in fact the first seminary that the southern baptist convention founded calvinism was clearly taught and promoted

01:34:41

What has led in your estimation to such? dissent and you could answer that when we come back from our

01:34:48

Break if anybody else would like to join us and we have a few of you Still waiting and we will get to you as soon as possible

01:34:53

But if we have time if anybody else would like a question asked and answered by our guest

01:34:59

Kurt m smith our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:35:05

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01:39:19

Paul wrote to the church at galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of god?

01:39:24

Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of christ

01:39:30

Hi, i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church We are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689

01:39:39

We are in nofork, massachusetts We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

01:39:47

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either

01:39:56

We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man

01:40:01

And to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love

01:40:08

If you live near nofork, massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

01:40:15

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750

01:40:21

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Welcome back This is chris arnzen our guest for this final hour with a half hour to go or a little less than that is kurt m smith

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Author and pastor of providence reformed baptist church of pine mountain alabama. We are discussing his new book

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Holding georgia for geneva patrick hughes mel and the baptist defense for calvinistic orthodoxy a new publication from solid ground christian books

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Which you can order at solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com

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But uh before the break as you know, um Kurt we had a question from jenny in ben salem, pennsylvania, which basically in summary

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Was what has led in your estimation to such dissent in the southern baptist convention where the the nomination has been virtually turned upside down Once being in its majority calvinistic

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And now being in its majority arminian and even arminian and anti -calvinist

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Well, you can answer that question in three different ways I actually wrote about this

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Nearly, uh five years ago and uh, and it was in response to the

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What what is what has come to be known as the traditionalist southern baptist, uh statement of faith uh, which has

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Has gained, uh more momentum, uh in recent days and has caused even more controversy, but but in answering jenny's question uh just to give a

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I can answer in three ways in just a broad historical overview the first reason for the descent of the sbc as far as just you know dissenting from moving away from their doctrinal heritage theological heritage as Bible -believing calvinists

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Was the increasing emphasis? Believe it or not on missions and evangelism

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Which fostered a zeal for programmatic activity while cooling any passion or concern for doctrinal preciseness

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And where this came all the full flower in sbc history was in 1925 With the establishment of the cooperative program.

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In fact, even dr. Tom nettles Addresses this very issue directly in his now classic book by his grace and for his glory, which is a

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Full -blown history and overview of the doctrines of grace in baptist life excellent book He leaves no stone unturned and bringing to light the calvinistic backgrounds of most

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Of our baptist heroes, even the heroes that are many in baptist would uphold as their great heroes

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Yeah, that's right. Very much. So well, he he spends a whole chapter addressing this very issue that jenny brings up in her email and a quote from that chapter he says in regards to the

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Cooperative program in the sbc. He says this monetary support Engendered by this ingenious plan has ignited such an adherence to southern baptist programs

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The doctrinal distinctives tend to be overlooked for the sake of physical unity and so my response to that simply this that what has

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What has become the stamp of orthodoxy for southern baptist after 1925 Has been there upholding the cooperative program at the expense of losing doctrinal fidelity, so that's the first reason for Moving away this shift that has taken place in the history of sbc moving away from their heritage

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As confessional calvinists, the second reason is this And it was the reaction against the hyper calvinism of the primitive baptists

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During the first half of the 19th century baptists all over america Divided over the question of how one carries out missions doctrinally speaking

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All the baptists in this debate were in fact calvinists But when it came to the method of missions one group that is the primitives

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They advocated missions by the local church only which is right in biblical While the other group the missionary baptist supported missions to be done by agencies outside the local church

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Well, the end result was a split Which first started breaking away and occurring in 1826 finally came to full fruition in 1838

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For the missionary baptists Uh, well, excuse me. Let me begin with the primitives the result of this split for the primitives

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Would would end up moving them into the quagmire of hyper calvinism, which is where they still are today

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But for the missionary baptists who would be our southern baptist today They would gradually leave their calvinistic heritage to unwittingly embrace a semi belgian view of salvation and ironically

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This is the view advanced as the traditional Southern baptist view by the adherence of that document which is gaining such momentum today um

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And and I will say as a footnote to that regarding the missionary baptist It took them 80 years to move to move away in in in such a in in such a bold, uh

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Way that that could be noticeable so it wasn't something that happened overnight in fact

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Uh, truthfully and I bring this out in my publication on ph mail the entire 19th century for baptists in the south

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The majority of them not all of them, but the vast majority of them remain true to their calvinistic confession so It was it wasn't until we entered into the 20th century that we started seeing the slip um, the third reason would be this historically

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And that is the long -standing influence of charles finney's methods of revivalism Um, while those methods were not embraced wholeheartedly by southern baptists at first Finney's methods of revivalism eventually took a stronghold in baptist life as the means for conversions in church grown

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Uh, of course the most celebrated of these methods is the infamous altar call or invitation system, which

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You and I talked about in our last time together This practice as we know promotes an easy believism which truncates the sufficiency and power of the saving gospel and moreover

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It's been the culprit For bloating sbc church roles with members who give no evidence of the new birth.

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And so Those would be the three reasons historically that I would lay out in answer to jenny's question why the defection from the confessional calvinism

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That yes, the sbc Historically was rooted in from the very beginning

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Well, thanks jenny and continue to spread the word about iron sharpens iron radio and ben salem pennsylvania and beyond we have bruce in pittsburgh pennsylvania

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Who asks how can we calvinistic baptists go about in the most winsome way

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To share the doctrines of grace with our southern baptist friends and family members well

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I would say if it's going to be in the most winsome way Always begin with questions

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You know fine, you know Try to get a try to get a good dialogue starting with you know with questions

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I mean if you're if you're if you're talking if you're talking with southern baptist friends who

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Who they themselves have questions? about uh calvinism or the history of the calvinism sbc

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Um, then I would just I would just begin posing questions to them asking them

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Well, you know, what do you think it is? What are the things you've heard and then and then go from there, but always always taking them back to the scriptures um in showing them that Yes, what has been nicknamed in church history as calvinism, you know, which is

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Which which is just shorthand for several biblical doctrines uh this, you know, this is in fact truly biblical and Um, and I would just you know, just go taking them to the scriptures and answer, you know to to their questions but you know, but in the most winsome way, it's

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I think the best way at least the best way I have found in my own personal experience Has been to pose questions to them

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Because you want to get them to start thinking rather than going in and just declaring You know

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Propositional truth right off the bat and you don't really know where where they are where they're coming from It's better to first find out exactly where they are

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Yeah, in fact, um years ago, um I had organized and created a program called the voice of sovereign grace

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That was hosted. Uh by a group of calvinistic churches that each

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Had their turn to host the program One night of the week. It was a week. It was a nightly show and there were five different churches that each had their own night to host it and I created the

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Uh opening announcements And in those opening announcements,

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I defined in summary form the doctrines of grace that god alone saves sinners

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Because sinners cannot even help save themselves And I have found that an interesting way

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Uh to approach someone who is against calvinism or at least a caricature they have of it in their minds

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I make that statement to them god alone Saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save themselves which part of that question.

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Do you or that statement? Do you disagree with and then that will usually wind up in a conversation that reveals a person's

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Misunderstanding about the tension between the sovereignty of god and the responsibility of man

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Yeah, that's that's good that that actually reminds me of an occasion several years ago

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I was at a southern baptist church. I was the pastor and um The the deacons had brought me into what they called an emergency meeting

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Wanting me to explain to them calvinism And the way

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I began that talk Was with two questions, which

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I can't take the credit for these two questions I actually got these two questions from J. I. Packer in his wonderful book on evangelism and the sovereignty of god

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But if you remember in that book if you read it in the first chapter Packer goes out of his way to show

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But show very simply very easily how that christians true true believers um they

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They're not too far from believing the sovereignty of god and salvation and so The two questions that I posed with all these deacons.

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I said question number one Do you thank god for saving you? They all raised their hand

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I said, okay, there's a footnote to that question. You don't take any credit for your salvation.

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You give god all the glory You thank god for saving you. They're all yes, of course. Of course you do and I said, here's the second question

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Do you pray for god to save? And you know, they they looked at me like are you kidding?

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I mean what a dumb question is that they're like, of course we do And I said, okay, so let me get this straight You pray for the lord to do the saving you thank him for saving you and you actually pray for him to save others

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I said and you you're all affirming that agreeing with that. All right. Well, then what's the problem?

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What's the problem with calvinism just affirmed in answer to those two questions

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Is affirming what? ch burgeon Defined for himself is the summation of calvinism according from john.

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Uh, not john, but jonah 2 in verse 9 Salvation is of the lord Amen, you're affirmed.

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You know you you are you are affirming that it is god who is in control of who will be saved Amen, you're you know, you know, you're casting all of all of your all of all the credit on him and all your cares on Him to save others and so, you know

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I just I found those two questions. I have found them even since then to be rather effective

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And you know with a fellow believer You know who is just really struggling and conflicted of course, you know

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As as I've already mentioned before you mentioned this in passing A lot of times what they're conflicted over more than anything with calvinism is a strong man that they've that they've been sold

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That's right and uh One last question that I think is appropriate to enable you to summarize

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What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this subject

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We have bb in cumberland county, pennsylvania Who wants to know how has this figure that you have written about?

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most Touched your heart and life in regard to your theology and life as a christian

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Hmm wow, that's a great question uh well ph mel

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Has touched my life the most uh in regards to in regards to to both my life and theology by How bold and unashamed he was to Stand for the truth when when

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I think of patrick hughes mel I I think of what? jude verse 3

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Says contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints and that's what

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That's That's what I see most characteristic In mel's life in ministry.

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I mean he was a man of god who agonized You know, he agonized for the faith once for all delivered to the saints it mattered

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So much to him to the congregations that he pastored and to The southern baptist convention at large

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That he presided over as I said earlier longer than anybody in their history He agonized for the faith once for all delivered to the saints to be held forth with soundness with clarity

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And of course he he he did it in such a way to where as As bold as he was

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He he was never he was never obnoxious He was never rude about it. But at the same time

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Uh when it came to to false doctrine, he gave no corner And and and that's that that is something i'm finding today um

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That it seems to be missing Uh, you know among among a lot of leaders, uh, certainly certainly in american evangelicalism at large

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All right, and by the way the next time we have you back on the program remember what you're doing right now

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Because your voice sounds a lot better right now. You were kind of going in and out of Clarity with the audio there on your phone

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So I don't know if you're doing anything different, but you sound a lot more clearer right now. So we can just remember that Well, uh, please uh conclude the program, uh

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With what you want, uh our listeners to leave the broadcast with and have Uh them remain haven't remaining with them in their hearts and minds

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Um concerning Concerning holding Georgia for Geneva. Yeah, because of the fact that the last time we really uh drifted away with connected but not necessarily directly related subjects, so well

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What what I would want to leave for the listeners is one That in this booklet would speak to them from both an historical and a theological standpoint and to see as as we've already talked about today that uh

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You know confessional calvinism that That's that's that's the theological roots uh from from which uh, certainly

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Baptists in the south of the country historically, uh have come from The other thing is this

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I would say and tom nettles and his ford he uh, he expresses this as earl blackburn who also wrote an endorsement for it if you

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If you know any calvinistic baptist pastors Do you would just simply like to encourage? To encourage to stay the course

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Stay faithful to the truth of god's word and not being ashamed to call To call calvinism what it is as calvinism

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Uh, I would strongly encourage our listeners Purchase this booklet for those pastors that you know

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To pass on to them to encourage them to edify them praise god And for anybody wanting to look up the church where our guest is a pastor providence reform baptist church of pine mountain

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Alabama, the website is prbc1689 .org Prbc 1689 .org

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And of course if you want to order the book go to solid -ground -books .com Solid -ground -books .com.

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I want to thank you so much kurt if you could hold on the line I'd like to schedule you for another interview in the near future

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And I want to thank you for being our guest today I want to thank the reverend buzz taylor for being our co -host today I want to thank all of you who listened especially those of you who wrote in questions