Cultish: Does the Bible Teach That The Earth Is Flat? Pt. 1

Introduction to the Flat Earth Question and the Goal of Reading Scripture in Context

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I'm one of the co-hosts here. I am joined as always once again by Andrew the super sleuth of the show Sleuthing and the background and your super secret headquarters in Harriman, Utah right next to the soon-to-be-built Costco right next to the Winco.

So, I don't know if I should give any more hints about your super secret headquarters, but it's good to have you.

Good to be with you Andrew. Thank you. Well that Costco is open now. I went there opening day. It was great and I'm having a good day because I'm drinking out of my Mike Winger mug that he sent me which is a.

Blessing really. You have a Mike Winger mug. That's it. I do because it just so happens. I have a Mike Winger mug, too. So I want to give cheers to my water, which is a in this Mike Winger mug. Which is definitely where I'm leading us now summer here in Arizona trying to stay super hydrate.

You have a Mike Winger mug, too.

You know, I find that I find that my coffee tastes a little bit more biblical. Okay.

Awesome, that's awesome. Like how did you get these coffee cups made by the way?

It was actually just a there's a Potter who is a fan of the ministry and he reached out was like hey I love to make some stuff. I'll put your logo on it and. They're they're kind of pricey because yeah, they're handmade and everything.

But all the I think it's about all the money goes to him pretty much but about five bucks per mug. We we donate to to a ministry that does ministries to refugees. So Iranian refugees at the moment and and yeah, yeah, so I don't make anything off of it.

I always feel weird about merchandise stuff. Yeah, I know. I know it's definitely it's definitely interesting there, but it's it's nice I like it though. It's a cool aesthetic. It's funny to do too because I forgot that you had told me you're gonna send me something.

And so when I got you ever get a package. You don't know what it is and it took me even when I opened the box up and looked at it. It took me like I feel like there's like a 30 second time delay before I put two and two together.

Yeah, exactly exactly. So anyways, I'm glad to have you on man. So we are gonna be talking about a subject that people have asked us to talk about for a long time. You've talked about before we're gonna be talking about whether or not the Bible teaches that The earth is flat and that stuff.

There's definitely a lot to unpack with that and just so you know for we're not gonna be able to cover every single proof text. Here so we're actually gonna have additional blog content. We're gonna have a couple articles by the time this article gets dropped this podcast gets dropped.

We're gonna be covering different things like the firmament and a couple other major texts that people have questions specifically about. For the sake of time. There's all there's only so much stuff. We're gonna be able to cover in this podcast, but You've been on our podcast before.

For anyone who's not familiar with you. Just tell them just a little bit about yourself your YouTube channel and what you're what you're all about.

Well, I mean my goal is to help people learn to think biblically about everything. And so that has to do with basically asking questions and then Pulling up scriptures in context studying carefully through the Word of God to kind of give not only here's the answer But rather here's how we get that answer with Scripture.

And so I'm trying to get people into the process of being able to test everything with how we're reading the Bible. So I'm just really convinced that the Bible is like a lot better than almost everybody thinks.

Yes, and by putting it on display The nutrients and the benefits and the life transformation that comes from it is is just happening in people's lives through the ministry. So people are starved from Scripture or they're confused about it.

And I I don't think I'm like the perfect teacher who's gonna fix everything for everyone. But rather I'm one one of those who's out there saying let's really pay careful attention To verses in context and watch it change our life.

Oh, yeah awesome.

And so and hence the name of your YouTube channel. Bible thinker. Yeah, right and you covered a definitely a broad variety of topics and it's good to have you back on. So yeah, I'm just stuck. So you dropped a video about two years ago dealing with this exact subject.

We're gonna be kind of re-exploring that in this episode. I'm just curious Mike what what initially prompted you to put that video together? Is there kind of a story behind it? Did you have close friends and acquaintances.

Because I know for myself, you know, I've got friends who you know I know who are acquaintances of mine who I care for who are intelligent smart people who are Into this and they believe that you know.

The Bible teaches a flat-earth model. Or and they've I've had back-and-forth conversations and it's just it, you know. There's always where is where did it stem from for you to do this video?

Why He Made the Video and Why Flat-Earth Claims Spread

Well, I mean like a lot of people I had seen where flat-earth content took over YouTube for a while and And you knew you could get a viral video if you made a flat-earth video at the time. And I didn't I never made one because I don't care.

I actually don't make content for the sake of going viral. And so I just ignored it, but when I encountered a few people I knew personally who were really getting roped in to the flat-earth stuff primarily not because of science related discussions.

But because they became convinced at least they were starting to be convinced that the Bible actually teaches a flat-earth that this is something that we should be we should all be believing if we're gonna trust scripture as the Word of God.

And When I saw that happening and I looked around and I realized every Response to flat-earth, you know content online is either mocking or it approaches the science, but nothing approached the Bible, right?

Nothing I could find anyways really approached the Bible and even I don't know if you guys are you guys probably aware of this. But a lot of the audience might not know even scholars like Christian scholars will will affirm that the Bible does teach a flat-earth.

Mm-hmm, and and I think when you look at the verses in context. You're like this is one of those areas where many scholars are utterly failing in the basics of reading scripture and this is not because I have a scientific commitment to to a Spherical earth or something like that.

I just I just thought what if someone just examined all the proof texts for a for a flat-earth. In context not to be inflammatory not to mock or ridicule anybody just examine them in context. Then the people who trust the Bible and that's been the important gateway for them into this into this movement.

Yeah, they'll be able to rethink it in my opinion because as I look at the texts I go guys, it's not even questionable. It's like really obvious that this is not what scripture is teaching us.

Yeah, right and in this too and I get the you know, there's there's friends of mine, you know that are going to Listen into this and there's nothing I want to say in this podcast. I wouldn't say to them face to face.

So Andrew you can jump here as well, too. But I'm not here to make fun of anyone or condescend to one. And in fact, I I actually want to go as far as to actually compliment people who are passionate about that subject.

So I want to at least give them credence to the fact that they care about the Bible. They they care about the fact that they want it that they believe that God's Word is authoritative In that but I think in that which is a correct belief.

I think there is on levels. We'll explore it some of that passion is very Misguided and what will definitely unravel into that? So we definitely want to be able to really look at this and and really do.

What your YouTube channel entails is to is be let's be Bible thinkers about this. Andrew is there any thoughts you want to kind of in you want to lay down as well to as we kind of jump into.

This yeah, and I'm totally in agreement in terms of being sensitive to the people that may hold to this flat-earth model. My question would be essentially for for pastor Mike to to elaborate on because we know that we want to think biblically.

Well, if they're trying to use the Bible and they're trying to use the Bible in order to prove the flat-earth model I think they'd be like, well, how am I not thinking biblically? I'm using the Bible, you know.

So what does it mean to read the Bible and then to read the Bible and think biblically about the Bible pastor Mike? So it's just comes down to really basic basic reading skills at this and forgive me.

I don't mean Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can do because brilliant people get this stuff wrong all the right. But you just read a verse and you read it in context, right? So Jesus says for instance hate your father and mother, you know.

If you don't hate your father and mother you can't be my disciple and there are some who do actually some some. Sort of cultish type groups will take those verses and they'll use them to tell members of the group you have to leave your family and join our group you can't talk to them anymore and That is that's out of context.

And how do we fix that? We read all that Jesus said about the topic we read. Where scripture says honor your father and mother we read and we read the context to see that Jesus is talking about in that case in this example, he's talking about.

You know, you love your parents you serve them you honor them as a Christian. But if they're asking you to choose between Jesus and them you pick Jesus. Mm-hmm. It's about choosing one over the other in this case.

It's not about actually just hating people. Yeah, I hate them because I follow Jesus. But this is what I mean this little example is what I'm seeing in many cases with some of the proof text to demonstrate a flat earth terms like ends of the earth.

Right or the pillars of heaven and there's terms that are commonly understood in a by a flat earth community to indicate like a physical edge on the end of the earth and The question we should ask is when we read those in context.

Is that how the author meant it is that what God was saying? Is that how the original readers understood it? And so we just read it in context just basic basic reading comprehension stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely and so again. Just you you emphasize this to Mike is that. And you can definitely elaborate as well, too. Is that you know this specific episode. This isn't about you know getting into any sort of specific conspiracies or the Geocentrism or ancient near Eastern thought any of those particular topics we are just looking at specifically.

Does.

When you look at certain proof texts that come up and I actually only recently experienced in the last couple of years where I would see people who are Facebook friends and they were just very passionate said the Bible emphatically teaches that the by the the earth is flat and Like you have to adhere by that and anyone who doesn't really and this isn't the case with everyone.

There's there's a general What's implied a lot of times what comes up is that anyone who does not adhere to the specific model or who questions it on Some level is under satanic deception. And I think what we want to do is that any time someone makes a biblical claim?

People we have the right and it says in Acts 17 Verse 11 the Bereans who were noble night noble-minded those in Thessalonica when they received Paul's message. They search the scriptures daily to see if those things were so in the same way in Thessalonians says that in 513 it says test all things hold fast to that which is good.

So what we're looking to do is We're gonna look at what has been brought up in the flat earth community people who are passionate about this subject. We're gonna look at specific verses and in this our main point in this is that we need to interpret the Bible correctly.

And in fact what you emphasize to what is that it's People can be passionate about that subject about that subject. Is that the earth is flat? But the reality is and you emphasize this in your videos that they're not getting it from the Bible at least correct by a biblical Interpretation so people if you're watching this you may be opposed to that.

That's what we want to graciously demonstrate and that that's really the point of having you on and really having this conversation.

Right, I just want to make it super clear so people to get this. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not Saying what the earth is I'm asking. Do these texts tell us X about the earth? Do they tell us that the earth is flat?

When it comes to the question of like for instance, does the Bible support a spherical earth? I'm not making a case for that today. I'm asking if these proof texts about a flat earth are being read in context if that's what they really mean.

That's it that that's the whole case. I'm not trying to talk about science. I'm not dealing with those things. I'm not deriding that stuff. I'm not commenting on it at all. It's it's right we're talking about one issue at a time and that really helps because some of these conversations get very heated and then you end up bouncing between between NASA and and and public schools and then the topic of evolution right and then you go into like the shape of the earth and then the Bible and then ancient Near Eastern texts and you have a skull and you start moving through.

All these things and it's like how do we get our bearings? Right, just ask just ask the question. Is the Bible supporting this view or not? That's all right.

And that that's a simplistic approach again. We're not we're not trying to be we're not trying to be Advocate for a particular earth model. We're just looking at these particular proof text, you know, we're not trying to be shills for NASA.

We're not trying to be we're not we're not part of some elaborate Jesuit conspiracy across, you know going off the last couple last couple centuries. We're simply trying to look at Does the Bible actually match up with the claims that are being made for sure?

So so on that note, let's go ahead just jump into it. So let's go ahead and Jump into it. So the very one of the things you brought up in your Video is that there are texts that talk about the the ends of the earth.

This gets brought up and that was one of the first things that you brought up. So tell me about when you were putting this video together How do people how do you see people using those specific verses give us some examples of what that how?

How are people who are adhering to a flat earth model? How are they using those particular verses?

The Ends of the Earth in Context

So it's often used what I've seen is it's often used to indicate, you know hey, we see the phrase ends of the earth in Scripture and therefore the earth is like a It has edges, right? It's not it's not spherical.

It's not rounded with no ends it rather the land goes out for a while then there's ocean and then there's like Usually they say there's an ice wall. And it and you know this is this is where confusion came in for me when I first started hearing flatter stuff because I Didn't really understand what they were doing with with with our picture so imagine if you have the idea of a globe and You like put your finger right inside the middle Right South Pole.

Uh-huh, and you stretched that out and you opened it up and now you've got that Arctic ice all around this sort of, you know circular shape and that is like an Arctic ice wall and Beyond that there's just not there's just nothing right?

And so that's the ends of the earth there. Then there's you know, text after text after text in the New Testament and excuse me Old Testament primarily. That says ends of the earth and they go. Well, that's what that means.

It's talking about the ends of the earth so when we We we look at say Job 28 24 that says he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. So then they go well, there you go. Now most often when I found flat earth, you know Promotional materials like content and videos and stuff like that.

They wouldn't actually walk through this carefully or slowly I should say they would just quickly list verses and then move on to the next topic. But I wanted to do it more slowly and methodically. Yeah.

Okay, Andrew. Do you have any initial questions about that subject when it comes to the end of the earth? Or what are your thoughts on that initially when you're kind of looking through this? Oh, yeah.

Just a question like so with Job 28 24 in terms of what the context is in Job. What exactly is being communicated here then instead of saying that? Hey, I'm gonna read this and obviously it's teaching a flat earth model.

It's saying ends of the earth and we see that there's ends of the earth in this picture of a flat earth model. What what is being communicated here in Job then? So what we have with the term ends of the earth is we have a phrase that appears several times in Scripture and one way to understand not just a word but an actual phrase a Repeated phrase in Scripture is to look at its use in multiple places and say hey, you know if I want to be consistent I'd like to see not and this is important to stress not just a word but a phrase.

I'd like to see how is this phrase being used? What what meaning does it have when the original readers, you know saw it? Did they think of that sort of edge of the ice wall kind of thing? That's that that terminates all of all of what we would call earth in the broadest sense and so there's other scriptures that talk about this and.

And.

So Psalm 67 7 will bring another verse in to talk about it. So it says here God shall bless us. Let all the ends of the earth fear him. Now when I just started this this research I just you know searched ends of the earth and started reading all the verses that had to do with the topic because again There's no magic here.

It's just just reading stuff in context this on a view that affirms a flat earth you'd have to say that There are there are people on that ice wall edge of the earth and there's and they're gonna turn to him and fear God.

Now that starts to sound a little strange because on their view there aren't people there to my knowledge. But there's more so Isaiah 45 22 it says turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth for I am God and there is no other and Here there's there's there's people that can be saved that live on the ends of the earth.

I'm starting to get the impression that this text is just talking about people from far away places. Like this is just you turn to God all the ends of the earth that it's just a faraway place. I think one of the best scriptures though that shows how this phrase is being used is Deuteronomy 28.

So in Deuteronomy 28 verse 49, we read the Lord will bring a nation against you. God's speaking to Israel about you know curses that will happen to them if they rebel against him. It's the Lord will bring a nation against you from afar from far away from the end of the earth.

So on that model where you have this ice wall, you'd have to have people that live there that are actually attacking Israel. It starts to feel like wait, is that really the context because what it ended up happening is Babylon and Assyria attacked northern and southern kingdoms of Israel and carried them away and That's the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28.

So Babylon and Assyria become the ends of the earth and there's more support for this in Scripture. Deuteronomy 28 verse 64 says this and the Lord will scatter you among the peoples from one end of the earth to the other.

Now from a flat earth perspective that I've heard one end of the earth to the other is one ice wall all the way across. To the other so I'm gonna pass Australia and I'm gonna pass, you know, what we would consider the North Pole over here.

We're gonna pass the Americas and then boom. We got the other ice wall so Israel was scattered that far in. In the ancient in ancient times like that didn't happen what did happen was they were brought to Babylon.

They were brought to Egypt. They were brought to other places that are not that far actually.

So.

The biblical phrase seems to be referring to Babylon. There's there's there's other scripture that and not only Babylon I'll say it seems like it's being used in the sense of faraway places. Ends of the earth is just places that are far away.

Because I think that most the time the Bible is being written from the perspective of a human being who's just looking out going yeah. That's super far. Yeah, like Babylon's like super duper far. I'm not they're not thinking about cosmology.

They're just thinking about their normal daily experiences. So there's other scripture on this. That's good, man. So so pretty much what we're saying too is like in Job 28 24 if we're gonna take the ends of the earth literal and In bring into the text something that's actually foreign to the text.

We actually need to apply that to the other scriptures that use the same phrase ends of the earth. And if we do that, we see that you can't actually understand that scripture in context. Especially with Deuteronomy 28 64 like you just mentioned.

What about like a mark 13 27, isn't that another good? Use of scriptures that we can understand correctly what the ends of the earth is is it what it means? Could you go into that? Yeah, so mark 13 27 says.

Now he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of Heaven, this is a very hopeful passage for for for the future. I believe I don't know if you're his perspective on.

Yeah.

Right.

So this just just means I think that all people all over the earth Are are there's rather all over the earth are going to be people that belong To God. This is interesting because here's Jesus speaking in the first century in the middle of Israel.

It sort of a subtle prophecy that Christianity will spread everywhere. We'll spread all over the place. It'll go much further than just the land of Israel. It's just kind of like a pretty neat thing. But the biblical phrase end of the earth can't be used as a proof text here.

For those who support a flat earth because it's just not a literal phrase about cosmology. This just means people all over are his you know, when when Nehemiah was at the ends of the earth. He we know he was in he was in.

But thousand about the thousand thirty-five miles from Jerusalem in Susa, right, right. It's so he's and he's taught and and we know this let me read to you that we skip this first. But I'll share it real quick.

Nehemiah 1 8. Nehemiah says remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses saying if you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples. But if you return and keep my commandments and do them though your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven.

That's an interesting phrase uttermost parts of heaven. You would now you would think uttermost parts of heaven if on a flat earth model is that ice wall is right there. Near the ice wall and he says from there.

I will gather them and bring them to the place I have chosen to make my name dwell there. Nehemiah is speaking about the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 28 curse into the earth and he's again He's about a thousand miles from Jerusalem.

They knew there was land far beyond Babylon, right? They didn't they didn't think it was a literal edge. Mm-hmm. They just thought it meant really far from where you are.

Yeah, and I think the fact to you Mike is that you know, we mentioned like Mark 13. So you and I are will probably differ in certain particular areas in eschatology. I'm sure you've covered that too on Bible thinker as well, too.

But I think one of the things we can agree on is that there is an importance Biblical languages are important and there are many a times where there is specific Geographical language used but not necessarily meaning Geography, for example in Acts 17 6, this would be one example people need to think about you mentioned the ends of the earth here's something to think about in.

And this is talking about, you know The New Testament Church and it says but when they did not find them talking about, you know The Apostles who were doing evangelism in Acts 17 says they dragged Jason and some other believers before the official shouting.

These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here. Okay, so the question is with this particular passage. Are they saying that these people have gone to every single geographical location over the entirety of the world?

Is that what they're truly arguing? No these people that they're saying, you know, it's kind of like oh. When something is taking a long time and a kid says, you know, oh this is taking forever. That doesn't mean like forever in eternity.

It's like it's taking a long time. And so this is an example where it's just talking about a specific Geographical location there's other areas to where in Psalms where it says as far as the East is from the West.

So as he made removed our transgressions from us. Is that adhering is that giving a and I've had friends of mine who I've you know. Just having a drink with and talking about this. I'm like, that's not that's not giving a Geographical measurement as far as how you measure the earth.

You can't make that argument. So that's where you need to look at. The consistency of what does the Bible actually mean when it's giving these geographical locations and it's very easy. Many of times if you're passionate about this subject and I'm capable of it.

So to take something and then read it into the text that that's the issue that we're having here. And so when something is done when there's a verse geographically. You need to just take away any aspect of what you believe the earth is and ask yourself.

What is the actual context of that? Like I said given that next and also giving that in Psalms. What are your thoughts on that Mike?

I.

Agree, we want to put yourself into the mind of the original Readers of the text right. How many of them are thinking, you know all over the world means. That's a cosmological description of you know.

It's like they're just they're just not thinking of it and I don't know that they were answering the question. You know any more than we would answer those questions if we weren't raised with those answers being inputted into us at a fairly young age like we.

We just you would just look out and you think. Yeah from the end of the earth. Okay, it's way over there another one like say a Psalm 19 6 that says that the Sun Rises from one end of the heavens and its circuit is to the end of them.

Mm-hmm, and there's nothing hidden from its heat. Okay. I now if I take this from a from a flat earth perspective.

I.

Don't actually think on on any flat earth model. I've seen that the Sun actually reaches the end of any of the heavens because they consider the end of the heavens where it's connecting with the earth on this sort of dome, you know ice wall connection point and.

This is saying that it reaches the end of the heavens and you could say well. Oh, this supports a globe thing and I'm like well or you're just a just a an earlier. You know pre-scientific person looking around going who's fun if it comes up and then goes down and it comes up and all you're doing is Describing how it looks.

Mm-hmm, and that that's what I think we're actually getting in the text. Gotcha. Gotcha. Definitely.

Andrew do you have any other thoughts that before you kind of jump on to the next subject?

No, it's it's it's it's like poetic language, right? It's like trying to take things that are poetic and making them literal. I mean you have the situation when you're talking to some LDS people in terms of God having a body of flesh and bone.

They'll go to texts. We're saying the hands of God this or the hands of the feet of God there. But I mean if you're consistent in that type of biblical interpretation, you can go to Psalm 91 4, right?

And it says he will cover you with his pinions and under his wings. You will find refuge. His faithfulness is a shield and a buckler. How do you gonna interpret that text? Does God have feathers? You know, does he have wings?

No people are speaking poetically. We need to read the Bible in context for what it's saying specifically and especially in Job one of the most beautifully poetic Descriptions of God's sovereignty that we have in all text of Scripture, you know.

Like we've got to think biblically about those things, right? Right. Amen to that man. I think that We what we what we don't want to do is say things are poetry that aren't. But it would be an equal mistake to say things are not poetry when they are.

We have to let it be what it is and take it that way. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

The Poetic Imagery of Job 38 and the Sunrise

So speaking of Job, this is something that you brought up in your original video, too Mike is that one of the things that a proof text that comes up is does the book of Job describe? Specifically the nature of the earth.

So maybe you could do is I give some examples of how this is views how this is used as specifically Job Chapter 38 verse 14. I'll go ahead and read it. It says it is turned as clay to the seal and they stand as a garment word.

Turned into yeah, so that's that's the context. So maybe if you could just elaborate on that. But also I think again, it's very easy in this conversation to jump to a conclusion and talk about a specific verse.

Also, if you want to maybe expand to it, maybe explain to people to like what is the whole context of the book of Job? I think when you actually understand the purpose of a book then you'll get a better Understanding of how to understand when something it's mentioned as far as you know.

As far as when that when that anything is mentioned as far as any sort of cosmology goes.

Yeah, well, let me let me share some thoughts and get your guys responses to those things. Sure, the so one of the real proponents who really has pushed forward flat earth Views has been a guy named Dean Odell and Dean Odell.

I'll quote him now. Here's what he says. He says when God was talking about the earth and he's talking about Job 38 14 about turned as clay to the seal. And how he formed it the word picture he gives in Hebrew is that it was changed as clay to the signet ring.

Pushed down flat and when that happens, it causes an upturned edge. It causes a border around it. Now you look at any seal. There's gonna be a border around it that pressed down piece of wax or clay or whatever it is.

That's a quote from him from one of his yeah popular videos that That you know promotes this these views. So do you know those claims are interesting and he kind of he kind of puts this stuff out a lot of these.

Do you know it'll Rob ski? But they've put these things out like they're on a journey and they're like and then I found this thing and it was amazing and I couldn't believe it. And so they present it like that.

But often they're presenting things as if they're discovering these new things that it's a little misleading to be to be honest with you guys. So he says that the word turned is in Strong's and it means to change not to spin.