Cultish: Does the Bible Teach That The Earth Is Flat? Pt. 1

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Cultish: Does the Bible Teach That The Earth Is Flat? Pt. 2

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Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I'm one of the co -hosts here

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I am joined as always once again by Andrew the super sleuth of the show Sleuthing and the background and your super secret headquarters in Harriman, Utah right next to the soon -to -be -built

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Costco right next to the Winco So, I don't know if I should give any more hints about your super secret headquarters, but it's good to have you

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Good to be with you Andrew. Thank you. Well that Costco is open now. I went there opening day It was great and I'm having a good day because I'm drinking out of my

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Mike Winger mug that he sent me which is a Blessing really you have a Mike Winger mug. That's it

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I do because it just so happens. I have a Mike Winger mug, too So I want to give cheers to my water, which is a in this

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Mike Winger mug Which is definitely where I'm leading us now summer here in Arizona trying to stay super hydrate.

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You have a Mike Winger mug, too You know, I find that I find that my coffee tastes a little bit more biblical.

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Okay Awesome, that's awesome. Like how did you get these coffee cups made by the way?

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It was actually just a there's a Potter who is a fan of the ministry and he reached out was like hey I love to make some stuff.

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I'll put your logo on it and They're they're kind of pricey because yeah, they're handmade and everything

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But all the I think it's about all the money goes to him pretty much but about five bucks per mug We we donate to to a ministry that does ministries to refugees

01:27

So Iranian refugees at the moment and and yeah, yeah, so I don't make anything off of it. I always feel weird about merchandise

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Yeah, I know. I know it's definitely it's definitely interesting there, but it's it's nice. I like it though.

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It's a cool aesthetic It's funny to do too because I forgot that you had told me you're gonna send me something And so when

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I got you ever get a package You don't know what it is and it took me even when I opened the box up and looked at it

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It took me like I feel like there's like a 30 second time delay before I put two and two together Yeah, exactly exactly.

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So anyways, I'm glad to have you on ma 'am So we are gonna be talking about a subject that people have asked us to talk about for a long time

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You've talked about before we're gonna be talking about whether or not the Bible teaches that The earth is flat and that stuff

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There's definitely a lot to unpack with that and just so you know for we're not gonna be able to cover every single proof text

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Here so we're actually gonna have additional blog content We're gonna have a couple articles by the time this article gets dropped this podcast gets dropped

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We're gonna be covering different things like the firmament and a couple other major texts that people have questions specifically about For the sake of time.

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There's all there's only so much stuff. We're gonna be able to cover in this podcast, but You've been on our podcast before For anyone who's not familiar with you.

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Just tell them just a little bit about yourself your YouTube channel and what you're what you're all about Well, I mean my goal is to help people learn to think biblically about everything

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And so that has to do with basically asking questions and then Pulling up scriptures in context studying carefully through the

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Word of God to kind of give not only here's the answer But rather here's how we get that answer with Scripture And so I'm trying to get people into the process of being able to test everything with how we're reading the

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Bible So I'm just really convinced that the Bible is like a lot better than almost everybody thinks Yes, and by putting it on display

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The nutrients and the benefits and the life transformation that comes from it is is just happening in people's lives through the ministry so people are starved from Scripture or they're confused about it and I Don't think

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I'm like the perfect teacher who's gonna fix everything for everyone But rather I'm one one of those who's out there saying let's really pay careful attention

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To verses in context and watch it change our life. Oh, yeah awesome And so and hence the name of your

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YouTube channel Bible thinker Yeah, right and you covered a definitely a broad variety of topics and it's good to have you back on So yeah,

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I'm just stuck. So you dropped a video about two years ago dealing with this exact subject

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We're gonna be kind of re -exploring that in this episode I'm just curious Mike what what initially prompted you to put that video together?

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Is there kind of a story behind it? Did you have close friends and acquaintances because I know for myself, you know,

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I've got friends who you know I know who are acquaintances of mine who I care for who are intelligent smart people who are

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Into this and they believe that you know The Bible teaches a flat -earth model or and they've I've had back -and -forth conversations and it's just it, you know

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There's always where is where did it stem from for you to do this video? well, I mean like a lot of people I had seen where flat -earth content took over YouTube for a while and And you knew you could get a viral video if you made a flat -earth video at the time

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And I didn't I never made one because I don't care I actually don't make content for the sake of going viral

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And so I just ignored it, but when I encountered a few people I knew personally who were really getting roped in to the flat -earth stuff primarily not because of science related discussions

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But because they became convinced at least they were starting to be convinced that the Bible actually teaches a flat -earth that this is something that we should be we should all be believing if we're gonna trust scripture as the

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Word of God and When I saw that happening and I looked around and I realized every

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Response to flat -earth, you know content online is either mocking or it approaches the science, but nothing approached the

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Bible, right? Nothing I could find anyways really approached the Bible and even I don't know if you guys are you guys probably aware of this

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But a lot of the audience might not know even scholars like Christian scholars will will affirm that the

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Bible does teach a flat -earth Mm -hmm and and I think when you look at the verses in context you're like This is one of those areas where many scholars are utterly failing in the basics of reading scripture and this is not because I have a scientific commitment to to a

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Spherical earth or something like that. I just I just thought what if someone just examined all the proof texts for a for a flat -earth

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In context not to be inflammatory not to mock or ridicule anybody just examine them in context

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Then the people who trust the Bible and that's been the important gateway for them into this into this movement

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Yeah, they'll be able to rethink it in my opinion because as I look at the texts I go guys

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It's not even questionable. It's like really obvious that this is not what scripture is teaching us Yeah, right and in this too and I get the you know, there's there's friends of mine, you know that are going to Listen into this and there's nothing

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I want to say in this podcast. I wouldn't say to them face to face And you can jump here as well too, but I'm not here to make fun of anyone or condescend to one

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And in fact, I I actually want to go as far as to actually compliment people who are passionate about that subject

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So I want to at least give them credence to the fact that they care about the Bible They they care about the fact that they want it that they believe that God's Word is authoritative

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In that but I think in that which is a correct belief. I think there is on levels.

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We'll explore it some of that passion is very Misguided and what will definitely unravel into that?

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So we definitely want to be able to really look at this and and really do

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What your YouTube channel entails is to is let's be Bible thinkers about this Andrew is there any thoughts you want to kind of in you want to lay down as well to as we kind of jump into This yeah, and I'm totally in agreement in terms of being sensitive to the people that may hold to this flat -earth model

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My question would be essentially for for pastor Mike to to elaborate on because we know that we want to think biblically

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Well, if they're trying to use the Bible and they're trying to use the Bible in order to prove the flat -earth model

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I think they'd be like, well, how am I not thinking biblically? I'm using the Bible, you know So what does it mean to read the

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Bible and then to read the Bible and think biblically about the Bible pastor Mike? So it just comes down to really basic basic reading skills at this and forgive me.

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I don't mean Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can do because brilliant people get this stuff wrong all the right

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But you just read a verse and you read it in context, right? So Jesus says for instance hate your father and mother, you know

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If you don't hate your father and mother you can't be my disciple and there are some who do actually some some

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Sort of cultish type groups will take those verses and they'll use them to tell members of the group

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You have to leave your family and join our group. You can't talk to them anymore and That is that's out of context.

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And how do we fix that? We read all that Jesus said about the topic we read Where scripture says honor your father and mother we read and we read the context to see that Jesus is talking about in that case in this example, he's talking about You know, you love your parents you serve them you honor them as a

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Christian But if they're asking you to choose between Jesus and them you pick Jesus. Mm -hmm

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It's about choosing one over the other in this case. It's not about actually just hating people

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Yeah, I hate them because I follow Jesus But this is what I mean this little example is what

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I'm seeing in many cases with some of the proof texts to demonstrate a flat earth terms like ends of the earth

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Right or the pillars of heaven and there's terms that are commonly understood in a by a flat earth community to indicate like a physical edge on the end of the earth and The question we should ask is when we read those in context

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Is that how the author meant it is that what God was saying? Is that how the original readers understood it?

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And so we just read it in context just basic basic reading comprehension stuff. Yeah. Mm -hmm

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Yeah, definitely and so again Just you you emphasize this to Mike is that and you can definitely elaborate as well, too

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Is that you know this specific episode this isn't about, you know getting into any sort of specific conspiracies or the

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Geocentrism or ancient near Eastern thought any of those particular topics we are just looking at specifically

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Does when you look at certain proof texts that come up and I actually only recently experienced in the last couple of years where I would see people who are

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Facebook friends and they were just very passionate said the Bible emphatically teaches that the by the the earth is flat and Like you have to adhere by that and anyone who doesn't really and this isn't the case with everyone.

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There's there's a general Of What's implied a lot of times what comes up is that anyone who does not adhere to the specific model or who questions it on Some level is under satanic deception and I think what we want to do is that any time someone makes a biblical claim?

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People we have the right and it says in Acts 17 Verse 11 the Bereans who were noble night noble -minded those in Thessalonica when they received

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Paul's message They searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were so in the same way in Thessalonians says that in 513 it says test all things hold fast to that which is good

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So what we're looking to do is We're gonna look at what has been brought up in the flat earth community people who are passionate about this subject

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We're gonna look at specific verses and in this our main point in this is that we need to interpret the

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Bible correctly And in fact what you emphasize to what is that it's

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People can be passionate about that subject about that subject. Is that the earth is flat

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But the reality is and you emphasize this in your videos that they're not getting it from the Bible at least correct by a biblical

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Interpretation so people if you're watching this you may be opposed to that That's what we want to graciously demonstrate and that that's really the point of having you on and really having this conversation

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Right, I just want to make it super clear so people to get this. Yeah, I'm not I'm not Saying what the earth is

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I'm asking Do these texts tell us X about the earth? Do they tell us that the earth is flat?

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When it comes to the question of like for instance, does the Bible support a spherical earth?

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I'm not making a case for that today I'm asking if these proof texts about a flat earth are being read in context if that's what they really mean

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That's it that that's the whole case. I'm not trying to talk about science. I'm not dealing with those things I'm not deriding that stuff.

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I'm not commenting on it at all It's it's right we're talking about one issue at a time and that really helps because some of these conversations get very heated and then you end up bouncing between between NASA and and and public schools and then the topic of evolution right and then you go into like the shape of the earth and then the

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Bible and then ancient Near Eastern texts and you have a skull and you start moving through All these things and it's like how do we get our bearings?

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Right, just ask just ask the question. Is the Bible supporting this view or not? That's all right And that that's a simplistic approach again.

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We're not we're not trying to be we're not trying to be Advocate for a particular earth model. We're just looking at these particular proof text, you know, we're not trying to be shills for NASA We're not trying to be we're not we're not part of some elaborate

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Jesuit conspiracy across, you know going off the last couple last couple centuries.

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We're simply trying to look at Does the Bible actually match up with the claims that are being made for sure?

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So so on that note, let's go ahead just jump into it. So let's go ahead and Jump into it.

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So the very one of the things you brought up in your Video is that there are texts that talk about the the ends of the earth

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This gets brought up and that was one of the first things that you brought up So tell me about when you were putting this video together

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How do people how do you see people using those specific verses give us some examples of what that how are people who are adhering?

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To a flat earth model. How are they using those particular verses? So it's often used what

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I've seen is it's often used to indicate, you know Hey, we see the phrase ends of the earth in Scripture and therefore the earth is like a

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It has edges, right? It's not it's not spherical. It's not rounded with no ends it rather the land goes out for a while then there's ocean and then there's like Usually they say there's an ice wall

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And it and you know this is this is where confusion came in for me when I first started hearing flatter stuff because I Didn't really understand what they were doing with with with our picture so imagine if you have the idea of a globe and You like put your finger right inside the middle

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Right South Pole. Uh -huh, and you stretched that out and you opened it up and now you've got that Arctic ice all around this sort of, you know circular shape and that is like an

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Arctic ice wall and Beyond that there's just not there's just nothing right? And so that's the ends of the earth there

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Then there's you know, text after text after text in the New Testament and excuse me Old Testament primarily

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That says ends of the earth and they go. Well, that's what that means. It's talking about the ends of the earth so when we

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We we look at say Job 28 24 that says he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens

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So then they go well, there you go. Now most often when I found flat earth, you know Promotional materials like content and videos and stuff like that.

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They wouldn't actually walk through this carefully or slowly I should say they would just quickly list verses and then move on to the next topic

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But I wanted to do it more slowly and methodically. Yeah Okay, Andrew. Do you have any initial questions about that subject when it comes to the end of the earth?

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Or what are your thoughts on that initially when you're kind of looking through this? Oh, yeah Just a question like so with Job 28 24 in terms of what the context is in Job What exactly is being communicated here then instead of saying that?

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Hey, I'm gonna read this and obviously it's teaching a flat earth model It's saying ends of the earth and we see that there's ends of the earth in this picture of a flat earth model

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What what is being communicated here in Job then? So what we have with the term ends of the earth is we have a phrase that appears several times in Scripture and one way to understand not just a word but an actual phrase a

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Repeated phrase in Scripture is to look at its use in multiple places and say hey, you know if I want to be consistent

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I'd like to see not and this is important to stress not just a word but a phrase I'd like to see how is this phrase being used?

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What what meaning does it have when the original readers, you know saw it? Did they think of that sort of edge of the ice wall kind of thing?

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That's that that terminates all of all of what we would call earth in the broadest sense and so there's other scriptures that talk about this and And So Psalm 67 7 will bring another verse in to talk about it

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So it says here God shall bless us. Let all the ends of the earth fear him Now when

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I just started this this research I just you know searched ends of the earth and started reading all the verses that had to do with the topic because again

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There's no magic here. It's just just reading stuff in context this on a view that affirms a flat earth you'd have to say that There are there are people on that ice wall edge of the earth and there's and they're gonna turn to him and fear

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God Now that starts to sound a little strange because on their view there aren't people there to my knowledge

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But there's more so Isaiah 45 22 it says turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth for I am

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God and there is no other and Here there's there's there's people that can be saved that live on the ends of the earth

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I'm starting to get the impression that this text is just talking about people from far away places Like this is just you turn to God all the ends of the earth that it's just a faraway place

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I think one of the best scriptures though that shows how this phrase is being used is Deuteronomy 28

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So in Deuteronomy 28 verse 49, we read the Lord will bring a nation against you God's speaking to Israel about you know curses that will happen to them if they rebel against him

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It's the Lord will bring a nation against you from afar from far away from the end of the earth So on that model where you have this ice wall, you'd have to have people that live there that are actually attacking

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Israel it starts to feel like wait, is that really the context because what it ended up happening is

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Babylon and Assyria attacked northern and southern kingdoms of Israel and carried them away and That's the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28.

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So Babylon and Assyria become the ends of the earth and there's more support for this in Scripture Deuteronomy 28 verse 64 says this and the

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Lord will scatter you among the peoples from one end of the earth to the other Now from a flat earth perspective that I've heard one end of the earth to the other is one ice wall all the way across To the other so I'm gonna pass

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Australia and I'm gonna pass, you know, what we would consider the North Pole over here We're gonna pass the Americas and then boom.

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We got the other ice wall So Israel was scattered that far in The ancient in ancient times like that didn't happen.

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What did happen was they were brought to Babylon. They were brought to Egypt They were brought to other places that are not that far actually so The biblical phrase seems to be referring to Babylon There's there's there's other scripture that and not only

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Babylon I'll say it seems like it's being used in the sense of faraway places ends of the earth is just places that are far away

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Because I think that most the time the Bible is being written from the perspective of a human being who's just looking out going yeah

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That's super far. Yeah, it's like Babylon's like super duper far. I'm not they're not thinking about cosmology

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They're just thinking about their normal daily experiences So there's other scripture on this That's good, man so so pretty much what we're saying too is like in Job 28 24 if we're gonna take the ends of the earth literal and Look and bring into the text something that's actually foreign to the text

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We actually need to apply that to the other scriptures that use the same phrase ends of the earth

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And if we do that, we see that you can't actually understand that scripture in context Especially with Deuteronomy 28 64 like you just mentioned.

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What about like a mark 13 27, isn't that another good? Use of scriptures that we can understand correctly what the ends of the earth is is it what it means.

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Could you go into that? Yeah so mark 13 27 says Now he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of Heaven, this is a very hopeful passage for for for the future.

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I believe I don't know if you're his perspective on. Yeah right So this just just means

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I think that all people all over the earth Are are there's rather all over the earth are going to be people that belong

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To God this is interesting because here's Jesus speaking in the first century in the middle of Israel Sort of a subtle prophecy that Christianity will spread everywhere.

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We'll spread all over the place It'll go much further than just the land of Israel, which is kind of like a pretty neat thing But the biblical phrase end of the earth can't be used as a proof text here

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For those who support a flat earth because it's just not a literal phrase about cosmology

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This just means people all over are his you know When Nehemiah was at the ends of the earth, he we know he was in he was in a

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Thousand about a thousand thirty -five miles from Jerusalem in Susa, right? Right, and so he's and he's taught and and we know this let me read to you that we skip this first But I'll share it real quick.

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Nehemiah 1 8 Nehemiah says remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses saying if you are unfaithful

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I will scatter you among the peoples But if you return and keep my commandments and do them though your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven

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That's an interesting phrase uttermost parts of heaven Now you would think uttermost parts of heaven if on a flat earth model is that ice wall is right there near the ice wall

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And he says from there. I will gather them and bring them to the place I have chosen to make my name dwell there Nehemiah is speaking about the fulfillment of the

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Deuteronomy 28 curse into the earth and he's again He's about a thousand miles from Jerusalem. They knew there was land far beyond Babylon, right?

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They didn't they didn't think it was a literal edge. Mm -hmm. They just thought it meant really far from where you are

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Yeah, and I think that the fact to you Mike is that you know, we mentioned like Mark 13 So you and I are will probably differ in certain particular areas in eschatology

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I'm sure you've covered that too on Bible thinker as well, too But I think one of the things we can agree on is that there is an importance

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Biblical languages are important and there are many a times where there is specific

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Geographical language used but not necessarily meaning Geography, for example in Acts 17 6, this would be one example people need to think about you mentioned the ends of the earth here's something to think about in And this is talking about, you know

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The New Testament Church and it says but when they did not find them talking about, you know

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The Apostles who were doing evangelism in Acts 17 says they dragged Jason and some other believers before the official shouting

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These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here Okay, so the question is with this particular passage

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Are they saying that these people have gone to every single geographical location over the entirety of the world?

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Is that what they're truly arguing? No these people that they're saying, you know, it's kind of like oh

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When something is taking a long time and a kid says, you know, oh this is taking forever That doesn't mean like forever in eternity.

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It's like it's taking a long time And so this is an example where it's just talking about a specific

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Geographical location there's other areas to where in Psalms where it says as far as the East is from the West So as he made removed our transgressions from us

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Is that adhering is that giving a and I've had friends of mine who I've you know Just having a drink with and talking about this.

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I'm like that's not that's not giving a Geographical measurement as far as how you measure the earth.

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You can't make that argument So that's where you need to look at The consistency of what does the

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Bible actually mean when it's giving these geographical locations and it's very easy Many of times if you're passionate about this subject and I'm capable of it

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So to take something and then read it into the text that that's the issue that we're having here

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And so when something is done when there's a verse geographically You need to just take away any aspect of what you believe the earth is and ask yourself

23:41

What is the actual context of that? Like I said given that next and also giving that in Psalms. What are your thoughts on that Mike?

23:48

I Agree, we want to put yourself into the mind of the original Readers of the text right how many of them are thinking, you know all over the world means

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That's a cosmological description of you know It's like they're just they're just not thinking of it and I don't know that they were answering the question

24:08

You know any more than we would answer those questions if we weren't raised with those answers being inputted into us at a fairly young age like we

24:17

We just you would just look out and you think Yeah from the ends of the earth.

24:22

Okay, it's way over there another one like say a Psalm 19 6 that says that the Sun Rises from one end of the heavens and its circuit is to the end of them

24:32

Hmm and there's nothing hidden from its heat. Okay. I now if I take this from a from a flat earth perspective

24:39

I Don't actually think on on any flat earth model I've seen that the Sun actually reaches the end of any of the heavens because they consider the end of the heavens where it's connecting with the earth on this sort of dome, you know ice wall connection point and This is saying that it reaches the end of the heavens and you could say well

24:56

Oh this supports a globe thing and I'm like well or you're just a just a an earlier You know pre -scientific person looking around going who's fun if it comes up and then goes down and it comes up and all you're doing is

25:07

Describing how it looks. Mm -hmm. And that that's what I think we're actually getting in the text. Gotcha. Gotcha. Definitely Andrew do you have any other thoughts that before you kind of jump on to the next subject?

25:16

No, it's it's it's it's like poetic language, right? It's like trying to take things that are poetic and making them literal

25:22

I mean you have the situation when you're talking to some LDS people in terms of God having a body of flesh and bone

25:28

They'll go to texts. We're saying the hands of God this or the hands of the feet of God there But I mean if you're consistent in that type of biblical interpretation, you can go to Psalm 91 4, right?

25:37

And it says he will cover you with his pinions and under his wings. You will find refuge His faithfulness is a shield and a buckler.

25:43

How do you gonna interpret that text? Does God have feathers, you know? Does he have wings? No people are speaking poetically

25:49

We need to read the Bible in context for what it's saying specifically and especially in Job one of the most beautifully poetic

25:56

Descriptions of God's sovereignty that we have in all text of Scripture, you know Like we've got to think biblically about those things, right?

26:05

Right. Amen to that man. I think that We what we what we don't want to do is say things are poetry that aren't

26:11

But it would be an equal mistake to say things are not poetry when they are We have to let it be what it is and take it that way.

26:19

Yeah. Yeah, exactly So speaking of Job, this is something that you brought up in your original video, too You can expand on it to Mike is that one of the things that a proof text that comes up is does the book of Job?

26:31

describe specifically the nature of the earth So maybe you could do is

26:36

I give some examples of how this is views how this is used as specifically Job Chapter 38 verse 14.

26:44

I'll go ahead and read it It says it is turned as clay to the seal and they stand as a garment word

26:51

Turned into yeah, so that's that's the context so maybe if you could just elaborate on that But also I think again, it's very easy in this conversation to jump to a conclusion and talk about a specific verse

27:03

Also, if you want to maybe expand to it, maybe explain to people to like what is the whole context of the book of Job?

27:10

I think when you actually understand the purpose of a book then you'll get a better Understanding of how to understand when something it's mentioned as far as you know

27:18

The earth as far as when that when that anything is mentioned as far as any sort of cosmology goes Yeah, well, let me let me share some thoughts and get your guys responses to those things

27:27

Sure, the so one of the real proponents who really has pushed forward flat earth

27:34

Views has been a guy named Dean Odell and Dean Odell. I'll quote him now. Here's what he says

27:39

He says when God was talking about the earth and he's talking about Job 38 14 about turned as clay to the seal

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And how he formed it the word picture he gives in Hebrew is that it was changed as clay to the signet ring

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Pushed down flat and when that happens, it causes an upturned edge.

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It causes a border around it Now you look at any seal There's gonna be a border around it that pressed down piece of wax or clay or whatever it is

28:06

That's a quote from him from one of his yeah popular videos that That you know promotes this these views

28:12

So do you know those claims are interesting and he kind of he kind of puts this stuff out a lot of these Do you know what old

28:18

Rob's key? but they've put these things out like they're on a journey and they're like and then I found this thing and it was amazing and I couldn't believe it and so they present it like that But often they're presenting things as if they're discovering these new things that it's a little misleading to be to be honest with you guys

28:33

So he says that the word turned is in Strong's and it means to change not to spin

28:40

Okay, so apparently some people are using this that the earth is turned as clay to say that the earth is is a spinning globe

28:47

Mm -hmm. I I would be I think again I think just just like I say others, you know flat earth views can be pushed that could be pushing a globe view here

28:55

I don't think this is the context at all But the word itself, okay, you could translate it turned or or change

29:03

I don't care The Hebrew word for seal however means signet ring and here's a big part of that sort of flatter perspective

29:11

The Hebrew word means signet ring he says and he says think of a ring used to stamp wax, right?

29:17

It's a ring, but when you actually look up Strong's Even Strong's which is a pretty bare dictionary

29:23

There's little data there but when you look up Strong's it says that typically when this word is used unless a hand is mentioned it refers to a a disc a cylinder not a ring and All of a sudden all of Dean Odell's word picture where he has like clay

29:38

He has a wax and you stamp it with a ring and it has a ridge and that's the ice wall Yeah, it all falls apart because now it's a disc that rolls over clay and it's like it comes out like a rectangular flat

29:50

With bumps, you know indicate, you know, whatever they wanted to put on to the seal And so that's actually what strong and but it also here.

29:57

Here's the bigger issue though The context was not checked. It was just a verse out of context job 3814

30:04

Just don't look behind the curtain to see that there was the wizard back there doing his thing And so the context here job 3814

30:12

It says yes, it's changed like clay under the seal But if you read from verse 12 to verse 14, you see the poetic stuff that's going on here

30:20

And job the entire book you asked for some context. The whole book of job is poetry the entire book

30:26

Not it's like like Psalms is put it is poetry the whole thing and not not to say it's not teaching true things

30:32

Real things but yeah, it's it's poetry a lot of it has to do with God's sovereignty and his right to do what he pleases and the rightness of us to trust him no matter what is happening in our lives and I think that this is so that we can

30:47

Agree on in and I'm gonna sound like a Calvinist and I'm okay with that Yeah, that's the elephant in the room that people always like messes about like, uh

30:56

Hasn't he had back and forth with James White? Like yeah, we know that so yeah, but this it man. Yeah, so, okay

31:02

But let me let me just maybe the job job 3812 through 14 says have you commanded the morning?

31:08

This is God asking job questions. He's rhetorical questions to kind of say say like job. You're really small.

31:13

I'm really big The thing he says have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place

31:21

Notice that the morning in the dawn we're talking about the sunrise, aren't we? Mm -hmm, then it says that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth and the wicked be shaken out of it

31:32

Nobody's gonna take that literal I'm not gonna grab the skirt the earth doesn't have giant skirts and the wicked are in them and they're gonna be shaken out by The morning

31:40

What's he talking about then in verse 14? It says it has changed like clay under the seal and its features stand out like a garment

31:46

So here we arbitrarily take verse 14 to be like this literal description of the cosmology of Earth But verse 13 we ignore because it's skirts and shaking the wicked out of skirts like that.

31:57

That doesn't make sense So here's what I get in this passage in Job It's a description of the Sun coming up and just like when you have clay

32:05

It's just this flat piece of clay and you roll the cylinder over it Now it's all got all these contours and bumps When the

32:11

Sun comes up the light shines onto the earth and this causes the wicked to stop what they're doing or to be caught

32:18

Now this fits the context of Job really well Because Job 24 verses 13 through 17 describes the wicked as doing their stuff at nighttime.

32:27

So they won't be caught Let me read it to you guys Job 24 13 through 17 It says there are those who rebel against the light who were not acquainted with its ways and do not sit in its path

32:38

They the murderer rises before it is light that he may kill the poor and needy and in the night

32:44

He is like a thief the eye of the adulterer also waits for the twilight Saying no,

32:49

I will see me and he veils his face in the dark. They dig through houses by day

32:54

They shut themselves up. They do not know the light for deep darkness is morning to all of them and It's it's as though morning like it's the light to them

33:03

They come out in the dark and they are for their friends with the terrors of deep darkness And so God's like I'm the one that commands the morning that shakes the wicked out who are hiding in the dark

33:13

This is talking about it happens every day This thing that's being described in Job 38 is not the creation of the universe or the or of the world

33:20

It is actually the Sun rising and it shakes the wicked out Yeah, because it brings light into the things that they're doing

33:28

So it's just the contours of light being cast onto mountains and valleys and trees and stuff like that.

33:34

Yeah Yeah, yeah, in fact, I'm Andrew you just in the USA or yeah I mean even in Job 38 in the context, this is

33:41

God replying to Job Where were you when I was doing all of these things? Like did you see this?

33:48

You know, did you walk the chasms of the great deep? The picture again, it's just the sovereignty of God if we're gonna take texts like this and interpret them literal

33:57

We're gonna have to go to like Hebrews chapter 1 as well when we have the father bringing the Son into the world

34:03

Talking about the deity of Jesus saying in verse. Let's see here 11 It says talking about actually my bad verse 10

34:10

It says and you Lord laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the works of your hands They will perish but you remain they will all wear out like a garment like a robe

34:18

You will roll them up If we're gonna take that these things literally in Job and we're reading the same type of language in Hebrews is the earth now like laying on fabric and then

34:27

Jesus is gonna literally roll it up like a like fabric we have to Be consistent in our interpretation of biblical text and if we can't be consistent in that interpretation

34:36

Hermeneutically your your interpretations probably wrong, right? The scripture is gonna be right So I think that's extremely important something to say and in terms of this to Pastor Mike and Jerry you guys can speak to this

34:47

Some of my worries when I was watching some of the videos by um, it's Dean Odell.

34:52

Oh, I believe yeah Well before he starts giving these types of revelations

34:57

He says like the Holy Spirit showed me right the Holy Spirit led me to these things and this this is a big deal

35:03

To me because if someone's coming to know who Christ is through the flat -earth model. Well, what about the gospel?

35:10

What about the gospel because all of a sudden if somebody then is unconvinced of this flat -earth model through biblical text later

35:16

Maybe they were never saved to begin with right? Maybe the whole Bible is then rejected

35:21

I think that's a big worry right because we shouldn't use them the the Lord's name in vain is what

35:28

I'm saying I don't think that's a good thing to do to say the Holy Spirit is showing me this When you could be utterly wrong and that's that's a worry for me is you know, just half half

35:38

Half hazardly using the Lord's name in vain, right? Well, let's say hype Let's say hypothetically if I could add to that that that Dean Odell had said the

35:45

Holy Spirit showed me this clay passage Which I think he may do that if I remember in the video, but I'm not sure but let's say that he did

35:51

The Holy Spirit showed me this passage then he proceeds to misinterpret the Hebrew terms and to completely misinterpret the passage

35:58

Obviously, it's not talking about a creation thing It's talking about something happens every morning and it's picturesque and poetic

36:04

Then this shows me Dean Odell does not know the voice of the Holy Spirit He's saying

36:09

God's leading him when he's not so now Yeah We've elevated him from having a mistaken interpretation of a passage that is always a sad and unfortunate thing to actually doing it in the name of inspiration

36:20

So now he's in a new category if that's the case. Yeah, exactly Yeah, and in fact and here's the thing too is that and I'm glad you mentioned that Andrew as well

36:29

And obviously I was joking earlier about the he mentioned the whole Calvinist thing to obviously, you know, we're reformed you're not you know

36:35

There's still areas and about still there there's areas in which we disagree when it comes to that But there's still we're still unified around the essentials

36:43

And so, you know, we can definitely still have those conversations and disagree with each other but still be unified as you know as brothers and the

36:50

Lord and To be able to focus and have an edifying conversation like this and even you know

36:55

Like video the video series you recently did with your women in ministry And so I haven't had a chance to actually go through it in depth

37:02

I've just seen some of your posts and as part of me initially I mean, I think our views might be different than that and again, that's a conversation where you can be back and forth but again, it's a secondary issue and It's one of those things where it should this should not be something you you purposely and you have to completely divide over I think my concern when you kind of look into this whole discussion and even why it's kind of on our platform is

37:28

Because well, I think a lot of times and it's not this is indicative of everyone this whole conversation about what the model of the earth

37:35

Is it starts to become very white hat and black hat like we have the complete truth that it's this specific model

37:42

And anyone who holds to a heliocentric model or anything else on some level? They're under spiritual deception and anyone and to actually test what we're doing

37:52

We're taking a look at these verses which were biblically we have the warrant to do It's almost like you're questioning the very revelation of God and that's that's kind of the concern that I have

38:02

And so honestly what we want to just encouraging when listening in is that you want to just look at these verses and say

38:10

Can you make a case for your belief of them all can you typically make a case for that and when it comes to Job 38, you know what you see is

38:19

Things that are real intangible that God is talking about but there's also like a lot of poetic language so, you know the point of Job 38 is to talk about his

38:29

God's sovereignty and him being able to and his and God's wisdom

38:35

Versus Job, he's not it's not there to give you a specific Cosmological model is there to talk about the superiority and the supremacy of God and who he is and how he

38:47

Created the world and and that's the that's the really the purpose of creation as well Too is declared is to declare the glory of God to proclaim the work of his hands

38:55

And I think a lot of times if you start getting into these intricacies you you start losing track of what

39:02

Biblical cause biblical cosmology the purpose of it is to begin with just good thoughts

39:07

I think that the my summary would be the stakes are so high for some people who think this issue

39:13

Gets elevated and elevated and elevated where it was like like I'm not actually that worried

39:20

Theologically in a person's life if they think the earth is flat. I don't really care that much, right? I'm worried when it becomes a pillar of Christian faith because it's not

39:30

Biblically speaking it's just not and so where did this pillar come from and how's it gonna affect other things like you're saying the whole

39:38

Looking at people as being under spiritual deception They're like under the God of this world is blinded their eyes.

39:43

They're like, well, that's usually terminology We use for someone who rejects the gospel not someone who has a different cosmological perspective than you.

39:50

Yeah Yeah, so Mike I appreciate bringing those points and this has been a great conversation so far and I almost forgot the beginning

39:57

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41:01

All right So back to the podcast and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today Mike So one of the things just real quickly you brought this up in the video and again

41:09

This is just a matter of just understanding holistically biblical interpretations. So one of the things she mentioned is that Earth usually in the

41:17

Bible typically does not mean specifically Planet, so I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make when they come ruin

41:25

They really come into this conversation. Could you elaborate on what she meant in that video? I Noticed it

41:30

Yeah I noticed it happening as I was reading a lot of the proof texts that were being used and then the way they were being

41:35

Discussed and I even saw some saying look the Hebrew for earth here is errats and errats it sounds like you're mixing on a

41:46

Yeah you're doing some DJ work there, but the the word there they say it means planet and this is

41:55

This is definitely not the case. And so you could just look up the word in numerous places in the Bible It mostly does not mean that and I say planet whether you define that as like a globe or a flat

42:07

You know Earth view is whichever term you want to use there But um, but yeah, Genesis 110, you know

42:13

God He he calls the dry land errats or earth and then the waters he calls them seas

42:19

But what usually when I see flat earth, you know material online They use the term earth only to refer to the entire entirety of everything land sea ice wall all of it together

42:32

Then in Genesis 11 1 we have the word used again. It says the whole earth had one language and the same words

42:38

Now that refers to all people of the earth. This isn't actually talking about It and obviously the people don't live in the ocean he's just talking about people

42:46

And using the term errats to talk about humans We're not talking and like when the Bible says world and often speaking of the people not any physical structures

42:54

In Genesis 13 6 we have it used in another way It says the land the errats which you could translate earth and some would say means means all of existence

43:04

Could not support both of them. It's talking about Abraham and Lot It's like man how big was was there was their groups that they the entire earth could not support them obviously the term errats

43:17

Doesn't just mean earth like you just can't translate it that way In fact, most the time when you see the term earth in Scripture, it's not trying to talk about and you look at it carefully

43:25

It's not trying to talk about you know Whether it's the globe or the flat earth model all of that stuff.

43:31

It's just usually talking about something else something much smaller Yeah, I find that to be really important because when we're thinking even of the end of the ends of the earth phrases like in Genesis 11 1 we can see referring to all of the people on earth.

43:44

So it's a good thing to think biblically So what about the footstool passages

43:49

Mike? What do we what do we do with those and where do we start? yeah, so I mean I had never thought of this as being a physical description of The entirety of the earth but but that's how

44:01

I've heard it used as I was looking into some of the flat earth perspectives and so Isaiah 66 1 says thus says the

44:08

Lord heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool and Here's where I've heard of I've even seen pictures models of this and they go look when you look at a footstool, right?

44:17

It's rounded. It's flat on top. It has legs like pillars

44:23

It's describing the cosmology of the earth here and then I'm like going Like I mean as a as a guy,

44:30

I mean most of the audience already knows that this is like wait a minute What so let me let me push back for those who don't you know already see some issues with this

44:40

Footstools yet. They're round and they're on pillars and they're flat on top. Is that what we're getting from the text of Scripture?

44:48

There's several pushbacks we can have one of them would be that heaven is his throne Does that mean that we're getting the physical shape of heaven, but they would describe heaven as having a dome shape

44:59

So how is heaven is thrown earth is his footstool. Does that mean he puts his feet on earth and In heaven, he is mostly taken up just by him sitting

45:10

Is that what he's saying? Or is he saying I rule in heaven and earth is beneath me I'm Lord of heaven and earth is beneath me.

45:17

It's a poetic discussion of God's power and sovereignty Isaiah here's if we use the same interpretive method to call this like cosmological descriptions of literal things

45:27

It's the issue you brought up earlier Andrew, right where God you can make a case The God is has physical body parts and they're very strangely sized.

45:35

So Isaiah 40 verse 12 says That it will talks about measuring the heavens and that God measured the heavens by the span of his hand

45:42

So how big is his hand now? His hand would have to be from one ice wall to the other right the end that measure the heavens but then the earth is his footstool so his feet are a lot smaller than that because I don't

45:53

I mean You can't put my feet on a footstool. That's only the size of my hand very easily Right heavens is thrown.

46:00

So his so I mean his throne was about as big as his hand span So he's got this giant hand.

46:06

He's got little feet, you know corresponding to the size of his hand and he's on a throne That's about the size of his footstool as well.

46:12

It's a little strange first Kings 827 says this But will God indeed dwell on earth behold heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you

46:21

How much less this house that I've built Solomon here built the temple and he's like hey You couldn't figure heaven couldn't contain you

46:28

But wait If we read Isaiah 66 one as a literal description of the earth is a footstool and heaven is his throne

46:34

Then heaven does contain you I mean who sits on a chair that doesn't contain them unless they are massively obese

46:39

It just it's not how it works so what we're getting here is that when

46:46

When the Bible speaks poetically here, yeah, heaven's your throne or it's your footstool, but when it speaks about guys actual transcendence, right?

46:52

That's where he says. Hey, yeah, your presence will be here, but you couldn't be limited by any anything in creation

46:58

You're you're you're above and beyond at all. So that's the transcendence of God. So these footstool verses

47:05

I think Fail because they don't number one they don't deal with the the everything evenly heavens not a throne now

47:13

But earth is a footstool literally And they don't deal consistently with Scripture which says things like God doesn't fit on heaven or his hand span is the size of the earth

47:22

Kind of weird. Gotcha. Gotcha. And just so you know, too I mean we're covering a lot of topics here and there's no way that we could encompass every single topic and every single

47:33

That could be a 10 part podcast, honestly, and again, we're just focusing focusing in specifically on different proof texts

47:40

So one of them that we unfortunately didn't have the time to truly cover in this podcast So that we would have we would have wanted to was a couple different areas including the aspects of the firmament

47:50

So when this podcast drops We'll have some additional content on the cult of show calm when you go if you go to our blog

47:57

By time right now when you're listening to this podcast You will actually have some articles up there on the firm and you can definitely take a look at and you can feel free to give

48:06

Comments on our social media about what she whether you agree or disagree on that Also specifically the passage it's a story of when

48:16

Moses is holding up the staff and Joshua's fighting and There's a battle going on and basically the

48:22

Sun stands still That is typically used to say to use as to prove the flat earth model

48:30

So we're gonna take a look at that as well, too Along with a couple other things. We're not gonna be able to cover just for the sake of time

48:36

So just if you want to definitely check that out Go to the cult of show calm and you can check out our blog and check that there

48:42

So the next category, I think this is really big. In fact, I just pulled up, you know a just one of the

48:49

Examples of what people believe the flat earth model to be and they truly do believe that you know, there's the earth

48:56

There's the underworld and there's these pillars that you know, hold up This model of the flat earth and so what ends up being used for that are

49:10

Passages about the pillars of the earth. So this is just an example and again, we're again even if people who

49:18

Believe in a heliocentric model. I think they're They're capable of trying to sometimes maybe if they want to argue with someone who adheres to a flat earth model

49:28

I mean, it's easy to swing the other way to try and find something in the Bible It talks about something spinning or something, you know, something that adheres the heliocentric model not thinking of context first so that's just something to be wary of but one of the verses that you mentioned in your video and also that you

49:47

I've seen as well, too is Mentioning of the pillars of the of the earth So first Samuel 2 8 says he raises up the poor from the dust he lifts up the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a

50:00

Seat of honor for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's and on them He has set the world and there's a color of a couple other examples.

50:08

So maybe if you can just elaborate on that How did you see these from your perspective and all the research that you were doing?

50:14

How do you see these contexts of the pillars of the earth being used? when it comes to people adhering to a flat earth model and is that a correct interpretation and Also, how would we interpret that?

50:26

correctly biblically Well, the first thing I want to do is notice the context and I noticed that because you might say what you know

50:34

Here's one verse. How did these two ideas relate to each other? They're obviously related because the second sentence starts with the word for For the pillars of the earth are the

50:43

Lord's like well, how does that relate to this? He raises up the poor from the dust. He lifts up the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with Princes and inherit a seat of honor this is implying that someone's being raised up into some sort of governmental power and Then the in the responses for the pillars of the earth are the

51:03

Lord's Now we've already seen how earth is sometimes used to talk about people And I think in this in this context, it's an analogy for what's happening

51:13

Here that the poor are inheriting a seat of honor They're being lifted up and the pillars here are the people in positions of leadership

51:21

David is the example in this case Just as the Apostles are called pillars in the church, you know that they're pillars

51:27

So that I think it's just talking about leadership in this case I really do in this particular verse That seems to be the only way to connect it to the idea that the pillars of the earth are the

51:36

Lord's He's the one who puts people in seats of honor. He can raise up princes This is a theme a lot in the

51:41

Old Testament God and in the new actually and God is the one who's sovereign over who's leading the nation's Okay, great.

51:48

And then so another one that comes up as well, too And this is again enough proof text just get giving in context just Joe Joe 2610

51:56

Says he has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness

52:01

The pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at his rebuke the at his rebuke so the question is

52:08

I can see the appeal, you know, the If you have this it seems to be too and I've seen some of the videos too where there's this excitement because I'm now understanding something in the

52:20

Bible that I've never seen before and all of a sudden you all of a sudden it's like Oh, I just see that and now this is describing, you know

52:28

This particular model and goes against everything I've ever been taught and all of a sudden there's this new unveiling

52:33

I think a lot of times through that excitement there tends to be a little bit of uh, I don't know

52:39

Like emotional beer goggles of sorts where you're not necessarily looking at the entirety of the context so for anyone who would

52:47

If there's someone would look at you being a flat -earther and they bring this up Like we mentioned job earlier like how would you respond to this or maybe explain?

52:56

The con how do you think they're interpreting it? Like the what's the mindset of someone like this who adheres to a flat -earth model when they read

53:03

Job 2610? Like maybe take us into that world. How would you think that they're looking at this passage?

53:09

well, they're immediately thinking that it's fairly literal and it's describing the entirety of All that all that you could call earth in the broadest sense, right?

53:19

So land water ice wall edges. It's describing everything So it says he inscribed a circle on the face of the waters

53:27

They're talking about the the boundary between light and darkness that that is

53:32

Seen as the edge on the outer edge of the entire flat earth The pillars of heaven are seen as literal pillars that there are actual pillars now

53:42

They might be mountains, but they're mountains that actually get contact with like a solid dome

53:49

That is over that is over our heads, you know right on the very edges of things So those are there these pillars of heaven.

53:55

I think that context really matters though in Job I think that it's Job is incredibly poetic

54:01

That's I know that sounds like a dodge to people because I see some people do that Well, the Bible is being poetic there and I'm like, come on man, but sometimes it's not it's just telling you stuff

54:10

But in this case Job is extremely poetic. It just really is throughout the entire book we'll give more examples, you know as we as we go on and talk of other places in Job where Even the most strict flat -earth perspective would say yeah, that's poetic that couldn't be literal

54:26

So we'll show and those are right alongside the same passages they used to say it's literal so The literalism

54:33

I think is being a bit forced I think that I think that probably What the original readers would have thought was

54:38

God's inscribed a circle on the face of the waters the boundary between light and darkness He's they're just talking about the horizon around them

54:45

The in fact the boundary here on our flatters perspective wouldn't even be water it would be ice not water

54:52

So it's again. That's a challenge to that view But every use of pillars It seems to just usually have these poetic context.

55:01

I looked up every especially pillars of the earth that phrase I looked up every use in the Bible. It seems like it has this poetic context over and over again

55:07

It's possible that pillars of heaven and Job are just talking about mountains themselves You know like well, but those aren't functioning as literal pillars in a structure and I'd be like, yeah, it's poetic

55:18

Like they're not functioning as literal pillars in this poetic passage They're just these tall mountains that are astounded at God's rebuke other scriptures talk about the mountains shaking at God's rebuke

55:27

So I think that that could be just a reference to mountains in general. Yeah. No, that's good In fact, we'll definitely elaborate on that more.

55:34

So what we're gonna do I we're gonna kind of wrap things up here This is a good first part kind of really

55:40

Kind of just looking at some basic verses. And so again if you if you're of if you're a

55:46

Fan of the flat earth model, I guess you would say if you're kind of if you know We love you. We care for you.

55:52

And you know, we appreciate you taking the time to listen to us And we definitely would love to hear your thoughts specifically on the verses that we're bringing up That that's what

56:01

I think we would really like for you to do is take a look at it You know, don't take our word for it. Let's test all things.

56:06

It's a two -way Street. Let's look at the scriptures See what they say and let's let's think the quote to kind of paraphrase from your channel

56:15

Mike Let's think biblically for sure Andrew do you have any last thoughts that we kind of wrap up the first part of this podcast?

56:22

Yeah, just real quick. I think what a pastor Mike was bringing up is we can't just knock something off always by saying

56:28

Oh, it's poetry. But what we got to understand is that it's poetry. That's trying to communicate something specifically, right?

56:33

We can't say oh we need to take this poetry literally to bring in something that's foreign to the body text of Scripture No, we got to say yes, it's poetry, but the poetry is trying to explain something in the context of Job it's not the cosmology of of The earth it's just not it's just a reply to one of his friends

56:52

Speaking in terms of the sovereignty of God that this is the majesty of God. These are the things that he has done

56:58

It's just simply not biblical like a cosmology essentially. So very important.

57:03

Definitely. All right. Well Mike Thanks for hanging out with us. And if you guys enjoyed this first episode definitely let us know what you thought

57:09

I'm sure we'll be getting just a few comments on this episode. We post on our social media So all that being said

57:15

Mike, thanks for hanging out with us and we will talk to you all next week On cultish where we talk about whether or not the