Jan. 12, 2016 Show with Daniel R. Hyde on “GOD IN OUR MIDST: The Tabernacle & Our Relationship With God” & Steve Visconti on “Why the Gospel Compelled Me to Leave the Roman Catholic Church”

Iron Sharpens Iron Opens With Its Theme and Program Goals

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 12th day of January 2016.

Prayer Request and Introduction of the Day's Guests

First let me start off the program with a prayer request. You haven't heard me live often since the new year and there have been not only reasons for that due to vacation and also family members in the hospital and so on, but also we had some technical difficulties.

Thanks be to God for my friend Joe Ignacio who did some studio wizardry in here and cleared up the technical difficulties and hopefully forever. But I haven't had a chance to inform you all over the air anyway about the sad news that my webmaster, Jason Delgado, reported to me that his five-year-old adopted son, Anton, who he adopted from Russia, passed away from a life-threatening skin disease that he had and that he battled with and ultimately that ultimately did take his life.

But Jason is a strong believer in the sovereignty of God. He knows that this was a part of God's ordained design for Anton. So I just ask of you to now pray for Jason and his wife and family as they grieve the loss of this precious boy, Anton, and pray that Jason is used mightily of God in all things that he leads Jason to do with his talents and gifts and pray for Iron Trip and Zion as we now search for a new webmaster to help us continue running smoothly along for the glory of God and all we do here on this broadcast.

And today we have two guests. Our first guest today is Daniel Hyde. Some of you may remember Danny Hyde from a previous broadcast we did on the old Iron Trip and Zion program, basically giving the outline of what a Reformed Church is, and he is pastor of Oceanside United Reformed Church in Oceanside, California.

Today we're going to be discussing one of his books titled, God in Our Midst, The Tabernacle and Our Relationship with God. Our second hour we're going to have Steve Visconti, who is not only a member of a church out on Long Island, New York, that sponsors Iron Trip and Zion, Waiting River Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, who's strongly adhered to the doctrines of God's sovereign grace, but Steve Visconti is also a sponsor of this broadcast as well through one of the businesses he owns, and he is a columnist for The Narrow Pathway, an Eastern Long Island's community journal, which is a secular newspaper, so it's a very valuable opportunity that Steve has to spread the gospel in a secular newspaper in a very liberal area of the United States.

Eastern Long Island is a very liberal area and very few evangelical witnesses for the gospel of Jesus Christ out in that area. There are very few biblically sound churches in Eastern Suffolk County, so it's even more a valuable opportunity that he has through this Narrow Pathway column, and he's discussing today why the gospel compelled him to leave the Roman Catholic Church.

That's the second hour with Steve Visconti. But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, and welcome for the first time to the all-new Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Danny Hyde. Hey Chris, thanks for having me.

Oceanside United Reformed Church and the United Reformed Churches of North America

It's great to have you on, and before we go into our topic today, God in our midst, the tabernacle in our relationship with God, let our listeners know something about the Oceanside United Reformed Church, and also the denomination that you're a part of, the United Reformed Church of North America.

Sure.

Well, the Oceanside URC, we started in 2000 here in coastal North County of San Diego, where lots of megachurches, in fact, and small churches, but no self-consciously defined Reformed Church. And so we started 16 years ago in order to bring the fullness of grace and the full counsel of God, we believe, to our area, and so we've been doing that for quite a while now, and teach the Word and preach the Word, teach the doctrines of the faith, worship God reverently, and try to express that to the world through various means of outreach and evangelism.

And our foundation is United Reformed Churches and very confessional, so we follow the Hatterberg Catechism as one of our confessions, and the Canada Dorks. Points of Calvinism originate, so those are our main documents, our main doctrines, and try to do that, and we have missionaries across the world, and even though we're a small little group of churches, try to bring the good.

News to the dying world. Amen. And the United Reformed Church came into being, did it not? Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I believe it came into being when the much larger denomination, older denomination, the Christian Reformed Church began to become overcome by liberalism, am I correct in that?

That's right, that's right,.

Yeah, and that was a long history, sort of a long downgrade, and then eventually the opening up the office of elder to women. So that was the issue that led to the formation of our denomination back in 1985, I believe it was.

Yeah, and I do.

Believe there are still a handful, at least, of faithful men in the CRC, but I'm glad that the URCNA was established, and I really am delighted that I know a number of the pastors serving that denomination who are fine brothers in Christ and good friends.

Why He Wrote God in Our Midst

So this book that you have written, God in Our Midst,.

First of all, what inspired you to write this book? Well, I had actually previously read Exodus, and while I was going through the book of Exodus, there are lots of fine commentaries and works of history that deal with Exodus, and there wasn't a lot of solid material itself.

You know, for example, a lot of commentaries do a really good job of verse-by-verse, chapter-by-chapter, exposition, to this, say, 23, 24, then you get to 25, to virtually the end, and then all of a sudden there's sort of one big chapter that deals with that entire last 15 chapters in one chapter of commentary.

So when I was preaching through it, I wasn't finding a lot of help out there. Things that I had learned from seminary and so forth here and there, and so when I had finished preaching through that, I just thought it might be a helpful little exercise to kind of formulate my thoughts, take some of those sermons, the material from them, and adapt them and craft them into a book form to help the average believer who tries to read through their Bible on an annual basis.

You know, here we are at the end of the year, and people try to do that, but a lot of times you get bogged down in these lengthy narratives that seem very false. A lot of believers just sort of skip over these sections and don't really derive much meaning and theology and practical application from that, but that was the big idea, was to provide Christians some sort of a way to read through the narrative of the Tabernacle.

In a beneficial, helpful way. And I have learned that I should not take it for granted that all of my listeners are Christian or that they have been Christian long enough to be thoroughly knowledgeable of the Scriptures.

Some of our listeners may only recognize the word Tabernacle from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir because they're on the television and radio so often during the Christmas holidays especially, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir being of course a part of a major cult in the United States.

But what do you mean by.

The Tabernacle? Yeah, great question. When He delivered Israel out of Egypt, when He brought them out into the wilderness of what is today Arabia, He commanded Moses and the Israelites to build a tent not to camp in, but to build a large tent called a Tabernacle.

That's what a tent is, or the Tabernacle is, it's a large tent where God would visibly reveal Himself as dwelling among His people. For the Israelites to see that the God that Moses was proclaiming had delivered them, that He actually was there.

And so He was there in a bright light, Holy of Holies, which was the innermost room where He dwelt. So for Israel to see God, and eventually that Tabernacle, that tent, became obsolete when God commanded Solomon to build a temple in Jerusalem, and that temple then became the dwelling place of God.

And that temple, was it not destroyed in AD 70? That's right, AD 70, destroyed for.

The final time, destroyed in ancient Israel, and then it was rebuilt and.

Finally destroyed again by the Romans in 70 AD. And therefore the Jews today, or ever since then, they really have no sacrifice to claim for their Atonement, do they?

Parts about Judaism's sense of the Israelites commands sacrifice, it commands offerings, it commands a whole litany of rules and regulations about, you know, who can touch certain things and who can't, and who can approach and who can't, doesn't exist.

And so when I was in college, in fact, and I was doubting my own personal faith and, you know, trying to figure out what I believed, and the local Reform Judaism synagogue, so the more liberal wing of Judaism, and that was one of the questions, but if you follow the Law of God, if there is no place where you can sacrifice, and so I personally never received an answer that I thought was satisfactory, and there's no more place for...

And by the way, I want to announce our email address in the event.

That any of our listeners want to join us on the air as well, with a question of your own, for Pastor Danny Hyde, on God in our midst. You may also ask a general question on Reform theology or other doctrinal issue or biblical question.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and please include at least your first name, and include the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside, if you live outside of the United States.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and please only remain anonymous if you have a pastoral question about a personal and private matter that you do not believe would be wise to identify who you are, if you're asking Danny.

But if it's not in regard to a personal matter, please give us at least your first name and city and state. I understand that this book is largely based on Ephesians 2 .22, and in him you two are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit?

Well, yeah, that's one of the main New Testament texts that we as believers can look to to help us understand the Old Testament, and how God revealed himself, first of all, in the tent, in the temple, and then here we are, Christ, claiming that he's the Messiah, he's the anointed and promised Savior, but we don't have a temple, at least a physical temple.

So how does the New Testament understand Old Testament religion, and how have things changed and transformed in Christ? So that is really a foundational text for us to look to, to get our bearings, so to speak, for reading Old Testament.

Yeah, well, let's start with some of those key places in the Old Testament that a lot of people are completely ignoring the Old Testament these days. They believe that it's really just a helpful tool to understanding history or something, but there are some Christians who rarely dwell in it unless they're perhaps they're trying to talk about some eschatological view that they may have.

Yeah, yeah.

But let's start with God in the tent then, and we'll move on to the other key places after that. Tell us something about that.

Sure, yeah. Invisible, he's unchangeable, he's almighty, maker of heavens and earth, the God throughout history, and he's spoken to people, he has revealed himself through visions and through prophets and all sorts of means, which eventually these begin to be ratified into what he reveals himself in other ways.

And, for example, in the Old Testament tabernacle, so he commands Moses to construct a very large tent, materials that are used, that he dwell amongst them in a tent next to them in their tents, which are really a touching picture about who God is, and then he comes down to our level, gold and fine gold and silver, to show something of an earthly picture, the infinite glory of almighty God.

Sovereign Grace and God’s Chosen People in the Old Testament

You know, something's interesting about, this just came into my head when you were describing this, there's something interesting about how many today who profess to be Christian very voraciously reject the doctrines of sovereign grace that you and I believe, nicknamed Calvinism or Reformed Theology or doctrines of sovereign grace, and it's ironic how these same Christians are fully aware that in the Bible that God has a unique relationship with a certain chosen people that he did not have with any of the other pagan nations, which actually is where the the Yiddish word goyim comes from, the nations, and it's also even doubly fascinating to me and puzzling to me that many of the Messianic Jewish ministries seem to fully embrace that unique relationship that God had with the people of Israel to the exclusion of all others, and yet somehow totally throw that out the window when it comes to the New Covenant, but if you could just comment on that if you will.

Yeah, it's always one of those things where trying to talk to people about, what is this Reformed thing, and what does it actually believe? Describe to them, you know, what we would call in theological terms, unconditional election or predestination, as the Bible describes it, but how do you describe that in a tangible way that makes sense?

And you see it in the revelation of God in the Old Testament where you have, for example, with Noah, and God chooses Noah. Noah has three sons, Shem, Ham, and Daphis, and of those three sons, he chooses Shem and Shem's family line to be the line through which God is going to work his promise and work his grace.

And you see the house, from this one house of Terah, there's a son, Abram or Abraham, and God chooses him out of that house to leave where he lived in modern-day Iraq, Babylon, and to come across the ancient world to go into what is today Israel, the promised land, and you see this is the one who chooses.

God is the one who, and there's a tell of Israelites in Deuteronomy 7, a group of people that are living in Egypt, they become a vast number of people, but yet still smaller than the nations around them, and the Lord tells them in Deuteronomy 7 that it wasn't because they were greater, it wasn't because they were more numerous, that he chose them, but what's the reason that he tells them he chose them?

He chose them because he loved them. It's God's grace, his love, his own choice to choose this one line, this one particular what becomes a nation, and then out of that one nation, he chooses, in the very same idea, he chooses one woman, Mary, who is born the son of God and human flesh, Jesus Christ, so that all will be blessed.

And so God's, the way that God has always worked is that he's chosen, it wasn't like Mary was, Mary didn't create the son of God in her womb, you know, desire it so much, she didn't just grab hold of him, so to speak, out of her own, to make it happen, she's chosen by God, and God uses these lowly people and these solitary people to bring grace and salvation to the ends of the earth.

So the idea of the Christian faith is that God is a Savior, a saving God, who chooses sinners who aren't desirous of it, but that is of God. And if we could move on now to God and the tabernacle. Sure.

God, wanting not just to show his glory, you know, in the curtains and commands Moses to build this tent, he commands Moses the kinds of clothing that the priests are to wear. God determines, you know, when the sacrifice is to be made, what is the right sacrifice, the right kind of an animal, the times in which these sacrifices are made, and so forth, so that the entire apparatus of Old Testament religion was determined by God to show his humble them in awe, and by providing a sacrifice for them.

And we see that in all the various rites and rituals of that tabernacle. So that's kind of a big idea, and there's a lot of different particularities of the tabernacle, the furniture, the clothing, and the animals, and so forth.

But that's the big idea, is that shows us the holiness of God, and it also shows us the grace of God, you know, providing a sacrifice in a way for us. Yeah, that's another thing that is of interest to.

Me, why there would be any Jewish Christians, Jewish individuals who follow Christ, who would reject the doctrines of sovereign grace in regard to limited atonement, which is also called a particular redemption and substitutionary atonement, and particular redemption and definite atonement.

The fact that these sacrifices in the Old Covenant had no blessing connected to them to those outside of Israel. So it seems odd to me that there would be believers who fully recognize that, not just Jewish believers, but Gentile believers, but then when it comes to Reformed theology, they reject the notion that God's sacrifice, His ultimate sacrifice, His atoning sacrifice on Calvary, with the true Lamb of God dying for the sins of His people, the once and for all sacrifice.

Why would it be such a tragedy or travesty in their minds that this was done on behalf of His people and them alone?

Well, it sounds like you have a book there.

Well, doesn't that seem quite to be a paradox there?

Yeah, I mean, that's one of those things where, from our sort of side of the fence, if you will, you know, people are listening possibly, and you know, I will listen online, and you know, who aren't, who aren't Reformed or Calvinistic or whatnot, but you know, from our side of the fence, you know, when you read even back to the Old Testament, that same idea exists where you have Israel separated out from the nations and rules and regulations about what that looks like.

You know, you have, say, with Abraham in the early parts of the story in Genesis, where he circumcised himself and circumcised his sons and also all his household and his entire household, and anyone who's not circumcised, the males, considered to be unclean.

They're considered to be outside of the covenant. The same thing with Israel. They're in the wilderness, and they're traveling around, and everyone outside of that camp is considered unclean and unholy, unfit to enter God's presence.

And inside, there's sacrifices being offered on behalf of the people. You have the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, the day where, once a year, when there's a great sacrifice that's offered for the sins of the people, where you have the high priest, he lays his hand on the head of the one goat, confesses sins, transferring, as it were, imputing to those sins to that goat, it's sacrificed.

And there's a second goat, that's the one that's sent out into the wilderness, to send away their sins. So the whole idea of God's care for his particular people, we know that he cares about the world, he made it a redemptive, a shading grace, not in a general sense, but his people, Israel, comes, and he's that final Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

And, you know, we have to understand what that word world means and so forth, but the big idea is that it's God providing sacrifice, God providing atonement and a propitiation, a turning away of wrath for people, for the particular people that he came for, as Jesus himself says, he came, had given him a people, and he came for those people, and he prays for them, as Jonathan King says, and not for the world.

So we see these things traced throughout, you know, the Old Testament itself even shows it.

In the tabernacle with the sacrifice. We're going to be moving on to the temple after our break right now. We do have a couple of listeners already waiting to have their questions answered, but we have to go to a break.

If you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and don't go away,.

We're going to be right back after these messages. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

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The Temple, the New Covenant, and Christ as the True Dwelling Place of God

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Daniel R. Hyde, and we are discussing his book, God in Our Midst. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question about this book that involves discussion on the tabernacle from the Old Covenant, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And please include at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And those are for questions on God in Our Midst, the tabernacle, and our relationship with God.

Before we go on to some of the listener questions, let's move on to God in the Temple.

The Temple, as compared to the tabernacle, would be that it's more permanent. And so it's bigger, obviously, than the tabernacle, but the same idea. Priests, sacrifices, the same kind of furniture quality.

It's a larger building, but it's a more permanent structure. But even that, it's never meant to be an enduring building on the face of the earth. And so, at least me, broadly speaking, end times teaching, I would come up against that, that the Temple was never meant to be continuing, and then we'll be spending our money to Israel to rebuild the Temple.

Even if the Temple is rebuilt, and let's say the Israelites, the Jews of today, can figure out their DNA, Levi is, and the priesthood and so forth, and they can find red heifers, and they can find the right kind of utensils and so forth.

Sacrifices, they're offering pipes, as the Book of Hebrews calls them. These are pipes, these are shepherds, the eternal reality that is Jesus Christ. So even if all the things that the Old Testament describes could be replicated today in a modern context, from where I sit, it would be futile.

It would be a waste of time. These animals can't make atonement for even one sin.

And beyond that, wouldn't you say that it's also blasphemous if Christians, those who are worshiping Christ the Messiah in a future Temple, are offering blood sacrifices? I have been told by some who have that view that they believe that it's going to be a, like a new version of the Lord's Supper, but I still have a hard time thinking that that.

Would not be an offense to God. Yeah, and you know, there are prophetic passages in the Old Testament that a new Temple with sacrifices for atonement, and so, you know, your typical person who's reading those texts, they're seeing those as of a future time to come, which will be a rebuilt Temple.

And so if you're going to take them in that sense, if you're going to be read that literalistically, then you have to say that they are for sacrifices. They're not just for remembrance, they're not just, you know, a little Supper son, not just to remember the one sacrifice of Jesus.

No, if you're going to read the Bible that way, you better read it literalistically every way. Well, these are pointing forward in the Old Testament to the coming of Jesus Christ and the glory of that latter Temple that far exceeds the former.

It's not an earthly Temple. This is why John says that we've seen His glory, the glory of the only Son, in John's Gospel, Chapter 1, that the eternal Word of God, the eternal Word, the Son of God, He makes His dwelling amongst us, and that word there for dwelling is the word that's used in the New Testament to define the Old Testament term for tabernacling, to dwell.

So Jesus Christ is the new Temple. He is the new tabernacle. He is the dwelling place of God, and so we look to Him as a place where we worship. He is the one, the sacrifice. He is the priest. He is the day of atonement for us.

And so yes, for a believer in Jesus Christ to say that we should offer, that there should be offered more sacrifices, the book of Hebrews warns against that. The book of Hebrews tells us that the person who returns to the shadow of the Old Testament tabernacle or Temple system, that they are crucifying for themselves the Son of God all over again.

They are profaning the blood of the covenant because Christ has been once and for all. I would agree with you on that. That is, at minimum, it borders on blasphemy. I would say it is. You're taking God's name in vain, that you're saying that Christ didn't actually do what He said He did.

We have a listener from Lindenhurst, Long Island, CJ, who wants to know, did the sacrifices of animals in the Old Covenant have any real benefit other than the fact that.

They were acts of obedience? So, did they have any real benefit except for that last line?

Other than the fact that they were acts of obedience.

Oh, okay. Okay. Well, yeah, there's obviously that, but the benefit is not in the sacrifice itself. This is what Hebrews says, that the blood of golden goats and sprinkling and so forth cannot take away from the nuts.

Well, the question is, well, then what benefit? Well, the benefit is never just the animal, the priest, the temple. The benefit is that they point forward to the coming final sacrifice, the final offering, which by faith, an Old Testament believer who believes, for me, not just now, but there's going to be a final pouring out of blood, by faith, that person is receiving the benefits of Jesus Christ way before he comes.

Efficacy as strength to those sacrifices. But again, we got to keep that in mind. Keep in mind in the book of Hebrews, the distinction between a shadowy figure is the reality. The sacrifices of the Old Testament are shadows.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, that asks, was there just one temple that all Jews needed to perform these sacrifices at? What if a Jew lived too far away to ever participate in these ceremonies at this temple?

Yeah, well, God says in the book of Deuteronomy, for example, that he would place his name in a certain location. I believe that's in Deuteronomy 12, the promise, God would put his name somewhere, and that one place his name was, that becomes the place of the temple building.

And the law requires that they had to go to the place where God put his name three times a year. If a believer is to do that while the temple is still standing, they're being disobedient to God's law.

And let's move on to now, God dwelling with us in the New Covenant.

Yes, he does. The things that I try to bring out in the book, that the New Testament describes not only Jesus as the final temple, he's the final dwelling of God, because he is God, describes the church, the body of Jesus Christ in this world.

So we are united to Christ, so, you know, he's the head, we're the body, so using that kind of image, if he is the temple, so to speak, and we are joined to him as the body to a head, then therefore, we too are a temple.

So I try to draw that out in the books, like Ephesians 2, in Corinthians, for example, there's several passages in 1 and 2 Corinthians that describe spiritual dwelling place. So you mentioned earlier, he does say that Jews and Gentiles who have gathered together in Christ have become a dwelling place of God, of the Spirit.

And then you also have texts that describe the individual believer as a temple of the Holy Spirit. God dwells with us now. Does God dwell on earth? The answer is yes, he dwells on earth. How? Well, he dwells in the midst of his people, as they assemble together in the Lord Jesus Christ's name.

He also dwells in and with his people when they live detached in their daily lives. We're not in the church or with the church 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But when we live our lives individually or as families or couples in the assembly, we still have the promise that God is with us and that he dwells in our hearts by faith.

And we are connected to, by the means of his word and the Holy Spirit. And we gather together to hear the word preached. We receive or supper fellowship with God in this life. And even when we're detached from that, to the body, to the temple, by faith.

Now, isn't there a unique way, even though Christ is with us always, if we are a true child of God, isn't there also, though, a very unique way where he is present among us when we are at the Lord's.

Table? Paul says this is the means that he, at the Last Supper, through the vine until he comes again in his kingdom. So the tangible way, you know, most sort of we, as we join together as bodies of believers, two or three thousand, this is the means that he's given to us to communicate with us.

Communion, right? Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians 10, that the bread that we break, the cup that we bless, is not a fellowship and a participation and a communion with the body and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so we do believe that in the Lord's Supper, the most expressive way and tangible way for us to, that's why, you know, that's why I would argue and I would explain to people and try to members of churches to think more deeply about and how we prepare our hearts, our minds to receive that Lord's Supper together as individuals, but also get ready for that, knowing that it is a chance, as we call it.

Now would you agree with me, since our next guest is going to be discussing his conversion out of Roman Catholicism, would you agree that the Roman Catholic Church has twisted that truth into making it an idolatrous ceremony, where the actual elements of bread and wine are worshipped,.

They're actually worshipped, because they believe that is God? Yeah, our congregation, as I mentioned earlier, the congregation that we belong to, we confess to believe the Bible 452 years ago, I believe, or 453 years ago this month, and this expresses theology, and in that Heidelberg Catechism, a person can go online and find it for free and just find question number 80 between the Lord's Supper and the Roman Catholic Mass, and the difference is that we believe bread and wine remain bread and wine, whereas in the Roman Catholic Mass, they believe that these are transformed into the actual body and blood, and like you said, if on that table where He is that bread and wine, He's no longer bread and wine, He is there, that is His body and blood, according to them, you would have to worship that, wouldn't you?

If Christ were present, you would have to worship Him. I mean, to not worship Him would be a sin. That would be withholding from the Lord the glory to His name, and so that's the big difference, is that we do not believe that He is to be worshipped in bread and wine.

He is to be worshipped at the right hand of God by the means of faith, and the Lord's Supper that He's been once and for all offered, as opposed to, you know, describes it in various ways in which to describe it, in terms of, you know, what's in the Mass?

Is He being offered to God again? Is it just a surprise, regardless? Whether it's again, or whether He's still being offered to God, they would say, and to... Yes, that's why we're Protestant, that's why we're not Roman Catholics, that's why we disagree with them, you know, even if they are, is because they are not in idolatry.

Now, again, you know people who worship in the Roman Catholic Church and are evangelical, and believe in Jesus alone for salvation, and they would, they would ask, and maybe even they would say, well, I don't represent it for my sin, I don't believe that I'm worshipping Him.

That's what... Right. That's what their doctrine is, and so to be a Catholic, you must be a submission to that. So, you know, it's just even more reason to leave and to live a Christian life that is consistent with the Word, and even a person who may be listening who, again, may be conservative or evangelical in the Catholic Church, to find a church that lines up with what you...

And there are Reformed churches that, you know, there's the desire, people like the Catholic Church because of the reverence and the historicity, you know, you and I would probably argue that's what we have in Reformed worship.