Jory Micah, Theonomy, & The Gospel Coalition

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00:05

I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

00:10

Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. It's the same idea. I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust?

00:19

In the cosmic picture, none. There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

00:28

President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

00:47

I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

00:56

He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion.

01:02

It is a command. Reverend Haller, don't you sympathize with that?

01:12

I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

01:23

An amazing adventure.

01:30

We will explore the spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this before.

01:49

See, I have taught you statutes and rules as the Lord my God commanded me that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

01:57

Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who, when they hear all these statutes, will say,

02:06

Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people, for what great nation is there that has a

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God so near to it as the Lord our God is to us whenever we call upon him, and what great nation is there that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today.

02:24

That's Deuteronomy chapter 4, guys. What's up? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is

02:30

Apologia Radio, the gospel heard around the world. ApologiaStudios .com is where you go. See, you're making fun of me.

02:35

I'm tired. I'm like, my brain isn't... I don't know. It wasn't even... That's how long the flight project was. I know.

02:40

That's the thing. I don't know what it is today. I just feel like my brain is mush after... I don't know. You know what it might be, actually.

02:46

I didn't tell you this. By the way, everyone, welcome. ApologiaStudios .com. That's Luke the Bear. What up?

02:52

That's Joy the Girl. Hello. And that's Dr. James White. Yes. That was him in the clip at the beginning of the show. Matt's actually testing...

02:57

Do you remember who that was? Oh, hold on. I'm going to test that. I know. Okay. What was that from? You're putting me on the spot.

03:04

Fail. Fail, fail, fail. I can admit that I have no earthly idea.

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It's an epic clip. It was. I know, and I'm trying to remember which one it was from. It's from the closing statement.

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It's not fair. There's been a lot of epic clips. I know. That's not really fair to say about him. I know that. It's just for fun.

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This was... I'm trying to remember which one it was. It was closing statement. Very large church.

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Peebo. Oh, Peebo Bryson. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. George Bryson. That's right. That's why I know you. I call him Peebo Bryson. Yeah, yeah.

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George Bryson. He's like, what? A lot of people say... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Okay. Well, it's interesting because I met a lot of people, by the way, in Austin that did the same thing.

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They came all over from Texas and other places, and they were like, I learned about James through you, or I learned about you through James.

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Did all that stuff. And it's funny because a lot of this new crowd that's learning and getting a lot from a lot of your 500 years of ministry, they don't realize there's a lot to catch up on, so it's more like they're in the last maybe,

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I don't know, eight years of stuff, and they haven't gone through the early 2000s and 90s and everything else.

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George Bryson. There was like a great moment for the Reformed faith where it was like George Bryson entered the arena.

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I don't know necessarily that he was the right guy for the fight, but not to be mean to the guy, but... For a Calvary chaplain.

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For a Calvary chaplain guy. Brave enough to actually at least throw his hat in the ring, and he wrote a book on...

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Dark Side of Calvinism. Dark Side of Calvinism. And so he got to engage on the Bible Answer Man broadcast with George Bryson, which was excellent.

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I've listened to that too many times. And of course, you did a book debate with him. No. That was...

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Oh, that was Dave Hunt. Dave Hunt. Sorry. Yeah, that's right. But then you also had the debate with George Bryson, and that was from the closing statement of that debate.

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And I would encourage everybody after the show, go to YouTube, look up George Bryson James White debate. Watch the whole thing. Especially, the most important part of every debate, of course, cross -examination.

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Always, always, always. And that cross -examination is awesome. I think George Bryson drank more water in that two minutes than he ever had in his life.

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How many shirts did he sweat through? If you just listen to it, you can hear him sweating. Yeah. Not to be mean, but when you actually...

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You can say... You can write a book. Anybody can write a book and say whatever you want. You don't have the person on the other side of you saying, excuse me.

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But when you're in cross -examination and you're forced to get into the text, and you have a system or tradition that just is in contradiction with it, it comes out.

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It definitely comes out. At any rate, so big things happening right now.

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I want to make sure I announce it so we can get through the show quickly. We have two very big things to engage with today. Well, I would say big in length for us.

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We want to make sure we do it in a way that doesn't bring us into tomorrow. We want to engage with the article from the

05:38

Gospel Coalition on theonomy, and in a sense post -millennialism as well.

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Some important stuff to engage with there that does matter beyond the realm of whether you adopt those positions or not.

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These are important discussions you must have today, especially in light of the tyranny that we're all experiencing right now around us. But we're also going to engage with Jory Mica and some of the crazy things she's been saying as of late.

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Just some of them. Just a few. As of late. As of late. That's the key issue.

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She's been around a while. Sheologians were on her a long time ago. Yeah, and it's not that she's overly popular.

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I feel like she is the identity of the modern progressive

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Christian, and the feminist denying the authority of Scripture, sort of adopting the

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Marxist fist, and whatever comes from the leftists, she feels like, that's my team.

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Same trajectory as Rachel Held Evans, just not quite as far, well, she's almost as far down the road now. And Rachel Held Evans had more of a, almost a scholarly element to her that Jory Mica doesn't have.

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Well, Jory Mica pretends, but she doesn't really possess. She says she has a degree in Christian history, and theology, too.

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And theology and Christian history. I've engaged with her a bit, and seen some of her stuff.

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I question where that degree was granted from, because... Oh no, I do not, because unfortunately

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I know a lot about modern theological seminaries. Well, in terms of knowledge of Christian theology and history and stuff,

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I'd like to see a little exam done on that, just personally, but go ahead, Jory. I'd be willing to write the exam. I was just going to say, she recently, when she did

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Jesse Peterson's show, she disclosed how much student loan debt she had in...

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So she really went. I mean, in general, not just for her, but, you know, like, yeah, she definitely went to school.

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All right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are good schools and bad schools, for sure. There always have been. But I want to give you some good news first.

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So we are now in April. It is April, right? Technically? April Fool's Day.

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That's why we're talking about Jory and Micah. Okay. There you go. Okay. Okay. So, well, all right. It's April.

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We have now four, four bills for abolition or the equal protection of human beings in the womb going on or have been put in, and we've got

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Arizona, Oklahoma, Texas, and South Carolina. By the time

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May rolls around, we're going to have for you guys all the ability to watch four of the rallies going on, and we have one coming up here in South Carolina.

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And so I was just in Austin, Texas, to be at the rally for the bill that they have going on there now for equal protection.

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I just wanted to give everyone an encouragement and a thank you to everybody that partners with us around abortion now that made it all possible. The fact of the matter is this wasn't happening.

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This wasn't happening in the last generation. It wasn't happening 10 years ago. And now God is truly blessing the church with the opportunity to be able to speak in this realm consistently.

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And so it really is tremendous to see what's going on. So I just got back from Austin, and that's why I think my brain is mush.

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I'm just tired. Is it because of Austin? Did Austin do that to you?

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Austin, Texas? Did it do it to me? No. Although I will say, Carmen, he's got family there. He goes back and forth.

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He said that it is extremely different now than it was pre -COVID. He said very, very dirty. Like all the major cities.

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There were some sketchy parts. We were walking through. There were some guys. Everyone's like, well, I'm glad I'm with you,

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Jeff. And I'm like, well, I don't want to have to do anything right now. And so I will tell you one fun story.

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Just briefly. It's a deep blue city. Yeah. No, for sure. El Paso. I've been in Texas now three times in the last month.

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El Paso, San Antonio, and Austin. Clearly. I mean, the governor says lift the mandate, open everything up, no masks.

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And these cities are fighting. And these cities are fighting. Yes. The governor says lift the mandate, open everything up, no masks. And the governor is saying we reject your attempt to bring us back to normal.

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And so everyone there still wearing masks and all the rest. I resisted the mask thing everywhere I went.

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I didn't get in trouble for it. Our hotel even said they were like, if you don't wear a mask, you're not going to be able to stay here. And we just went through the lobby just like, you know, no, no problem.

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But so anyway, so fun, fun, fun thing about Austin. We finished everything up. We were like, well, we're here. Let's go try to film some stuff.

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And maybe we'll go to this place. Everyone talks about Congress, Congress Street, where like everything is supposed to be like a maze. And everyone says is like, it's like a

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Texas Vegas or something. I mean, we were saying everything you got to go to Congress. So it wasn't far from where we're at, but we didn't want to drive.

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So we got the new bird scooters, which they have a new one out. That bird scooters. Now the new ones are much more powerful and they got a more deck space.

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So we're all on. So they're made for me. That's what we needed is for them to go faster. So a there's no way a there's no way to look masculine or manly while riding a bird scooter.

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I mean, I was driving behind the guys and I'm cackling. laughing. He's got these big men with their legs almost crossed riding down the street like me.

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And I was like, there's no way to look cool doing this. And so anyway, we we ride like a long way to get to Congress and it's nighttime.

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It's like 1030 at night. We're like, let's see if we can get a shot and we'll film some stuff. And so I drive through and I'm like, well, there's some interesting restaurants here there, but it's not like they're close together.

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It looks like you're in like this. Everything's separated. So I finally I stop and I'm like, Carmen, where's where's the

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Congress? Where's the we've been riding forever? Where's that? And he's like, you just drove through it. I was like that. I was like, we're not gonna be able to do anything there.

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And so anyways, now we're far from the hotel. And so we decide to go a different route to get back to the hotel. We end up like not on the main street, but side streets where we couldn't ride the bird scooters on the street where like a bike path was.

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We had to write it on the sidewalks where they're all jagged and like there's they're tiny and there's trees everywhere. And Dennis, he's got a hip replacement like within the last like year and he's flying like these things go 20 miles per hour on a bumpy sidewalk with no helmets on and it's dark outside.

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He is flying and I he looks fine. There are moments where like I don't know how he got over curbs and stuff that it didn't look like he really tried to maneuver.

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But I'm like like fighting for my life trying to keep up with Dennis. And then I hear behind me I hear

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Isaac dying laughing and I hear this just like like rustling of bushes and everything.

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I turn around and Carmen biffed it and he rode his bird like up like a like a little hill with bushes but he tried to recover it and come down and he just completely like blows out and Isaac for like 20 minutes is just cackling laughing all the way home.

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And so Carmen almost died. So that's what that's what he gets for having you guys listen to him. Yeah. Yeah.

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That's yeah. Yeah. That's right. The moral of the story. Is it just like everyone's out of business because of COVID?

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Everything did look like it was well after the rally we tried to stop to sit somewhere with Rusty Thomas to get something to eat and yeah it was closed or just like half the stuff isn't what

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I used to not open. And yeah I mean you know it's it's sad it's sad it's like going to Kauai right now for our church plant.

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It looks like the whole island is decimated like it looks like a maybe like a natural disaster came through and you're just in there like two days after whether you still shut down.

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Yeah. So anyway it was it was a good time. Awesome is great. Met some amazing believers and very encouraging to see what

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God's doing there. So let's get to it. You guys ready. Yes. I'm just gonna say you know what's great about today. Why don't we get started.

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We don't have to listen to people complain about having to choose between apologia and the dividing line. Right. Ah that's true.

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That's true. I said on the program that I said I don't know why we haven't like coordinated our. We should.

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We should. You should move yours. Just whenever we start ours you can't start yours.

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That's the standard. Yeah. Just just be on the lookout for us because you know you know ours will be sort of random ish like every one and one thirty twelve thirty.

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Some of us are on time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean some of us have been doing this for longer.

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Yeah. Some of you are kids. Yeah. I don't know. I only started the 19 1984. Yep. I was three.

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Joy wasn't alive. So yeah. When were you born. Eighty nine. Oh goodness.

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Same year as summer. I'm getting old. OK. Here we go. All right. So let's do. Let's engage with Jory and Micah first.

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OK. So again Joy mentioned that Jory and Micah was recently within the last month

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I believe on Jesse Lee Peterson's show. Oh boy was that fun. So it's it's it's you know as always with Jesse Lee Peterson.

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It's entertaining. Jesse Lee Peterson is most definitely 100 percent a heretic and denies goodness

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I can't think of what he doesn't deny of essential Christian truth. Steven Anderson was on Jesse Lee Peterson. Did you ever see that.

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No. No. No. They get. I don't know. It didn't go well. I didn't know if Anderson knew who he was going to be on with because I knew when

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I went on with Jesse Lee Peterson what he was all about. So I was just ready for his same sort of stick in his questions.

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But Steven Anderson wasn't. Anderson told him this is how it ended. He says and you can go to hell. That's what Anderson said to Jesse Lee Peterson.

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So I was interested when I first I was like how did Jory and Micah agree to go on Jesse Lee Peterson's show. Yeah. I don't think it can't it can't be that she really looked into the guy because well

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Jesse Lee Peterson you have to see. So not to belabor it to go into that too much but she was on that first 20 minutes of the 20 30 minutes of it is like you're almost you could almost kind of think that Jesse Lee Peterson is doing a good job of like pushing her on certain inconsistencies and then it just the wheels.

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So you're like wow. Now I really don't even know who I disagree with anymore. Who am I rooting for in this fight.

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He generally waits until the last 15 minutes of an interview to to make it cringe. And yeah.

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And that's what happens. So she she also left the show. So go watch that get sort of a you know up to date analysis of some of her thought and in how she engages on stuff.

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But OK. So here we go. I wanted to engage with four different tweets posts comments she's made and we can go through as quickly as possible to get to the

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Gospel Coalition article against theonomy. So boys in the tech room you guys can pull my screen right now if you like.

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This is Jory Micah M .A. Christian Doctrine is a

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Christian doctor in history. She's a doctor. I mean it's this long. Yeah. For an M .A. Yeah. It's a long one.

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It's like OK. She says God didn't kill Jesus. The Roman Empire and the religious elite of the day did.

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Don't blame God for the hatefulness and envy of man. God was not part of man conspiring to murder him.

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And look could do a whole show on this one. Oh yeah. Why engage with it now. My thinking Pastor James was

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I wanted to engage with this because it shows the inability of the modern evangelical to think and to think in categories and to think consistently.

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And with someone with an M .A. in Christian doctrine and history I would think she might maybe understands sort of the response to this.

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But what would you say when you're thinking way too highly of seminaries today. That's the problem. The issue here is trajectory.

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I think it's a big term when I think of Jory Micah. I think of the term trajectory because we're seeing we saw with Rachel Held Evans what's what's the guy's name

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Marriott not Marriott Marrow. He's the son of the Southern Baptist Convention president guy.

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Oh yeah. I know. The name has just escaped me. Jonathan Merritt. You're watching.

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We get to watch the trajectory. And what happens is when you see this stuff starting as Summer and Joy did in talking about Jory Micah what year and a half two years ago at least two.

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Yeah. Maybe three. I lose track. But it was early days. Yeah.

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Yeah. It was early on. You see these and when you when you go hey this is a trajectory we have seen over and over and over again.

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People say oh you're just so unloving. You're being so judgmental. And then three or four years later they're out saying

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God had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus despite what Acts 4 27 28 says and what the rest of the

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Bible says about that subject. And I'm you know the stuff about conditionalism and hell that's almost standard.

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You just expect that eventually you have the equation of Scripture with every other kind of religious revelation everything else.

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That all goes. And eventually on the way out here sadly I was listening to an interview with Derek Webb of Cateman's Call and he's out there in the unbelief the deconstructed unbelief land.

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What was who are the two guys that I had never heard of before their faith was deconstructed the big YouTube. Oh Rhett and Link.

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Rhett and Link. See I had not heard of them until that happened. But you've got this deconstruction stuff going on.

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And by the time they get to that point you know the bird the bridges have all been burned and there's there's really no rescuing somebody at that at that at that juncture.

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And then it's all about they're gonna go on tour and explain why you need to start doing the same thing. Right. And so when

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I hear stuff like this this isn't just a confused woman in regards to the theology of the relationship of God's sovereign decree and the actions of Herod Pilate the

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Romans and the Jews. There's a lot of people that are confused about that. This is coming from a fundamental rejection of the consistency of biblical revelation and she has made comments about how your your feelings your experiences this is where you need to be looking you know for the ultimate authority and things like that.

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It's a trajectory and these days it doesn't take that trajectory very long to land and explode and there's really nothing left.

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And then they want to take as many people as they can with them. Right. And it's it's stunning when you find out how many people you know in a women's

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Bible study were actually thinking that she was a worthwhile person to be listening to and things like that.

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So pastors have to be aware of what these you know what these people are saying.

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But we can't we can't keep up with who can keep up with YouTube today. Yeah. I mean it's not it's simply not possible.

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If you spent every waking moment you could not keep up with all of it.

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That's why I was going to say you know you were saying at the beginning both you and I experienced people saying hey

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I found out about you from Jeff or I found out about Jeff about you. I have people come up to me and say I found out about you from Sheologians from Joy and Summer.

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So that that happens. That's very awesome. But I have I have said I hope Summer has told you Joy but but I have said numerous times recently you know we started talking about intersectionality and all the rest of stuff.

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I'm like hey I'm old enough to admit I learned about this from my kids. You know when when I first ran into them like hey

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Summer what on earth is this. Well let me tell you because I live in a

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I'm even I'm sort of a different generation even than you guys. It's only for you and me.

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It's like 14 years something like. So so it's you know it's right on the on the on the border there.

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But we didn't learn things. People did not move as fast even when they were on a trajectory of apostasy.

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It didn't move as fast as it does today. You are rewarded for apostasy. Oh apostasy is very profitable in our culture.

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It's very profitable. A lot of intersections going on there. It's the intersectionality thing. You become the victim.

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You're the victim of that big terrible horrible thing called evangelicalism. And so if you want to get people you know patting you on the back and inviting you on their podcast and everything else.

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That's the direction you want to go. So the speed at which it happens now is just is just amazing.

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Absolutely yeah. And that is true. Apostasy is very profitable and it seems like a lot of these people when they go that direction they're looking to bring an entourage with them right to hell.

21:43

All right. So just this one. OK boys you can pull this one up too. She says I'm not even sure a literal

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Satan exists. I think spiritual warfare is in the mind. When I first saw that I thought that sounds like something

21:56

Satan would say. You know where can you go with that.

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I mean Jory Micah has said some just purely just insane things in the past.

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I mean things like you know about the book of Revelation and Jesus and when

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Jesus says something Revelation you know you know she's not attributing it to him and you know it's human authors and that's her thing too.

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I think it all comes from like initially a fight against complementarianism and everything else is that in order in order to defy clear instructions in the word of God about the domain of a woman and her gender roles and responsibilities and sort of like what

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God has created her to do in a very beautiful and amazing way in order to really deny what

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God has defined you're going to have to ultimately come to that. Well you know

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God didn't write that. That was written by men. Right. You have to rob the scriptures of God's authority and say well it's just written by men.

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And that's something you see a lot of course with Jory Micah is she can't stand on a position of this is the word of God it's the it's a breathed out revelation of God it has final authority because Jory Micah wants to be a pastor.

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She wants to take the role that God ordains for a man in terms of this is his realm.

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This is what I've given him to do. She wants to take that. And so in order to do that she has to subvert the authority of scripture and say well it's just written by men.

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Isn't it isn't it in her Twitter handle. Doesn't it say pastor. I think. Either that or either her

23:32

I .D. Well it literally says pastor even though I don't believe she is holding a position at any church.

23:38

Not that I know of. Or anything like that. Well and she she does claim that the whole reason she went to school was to become a pastor and have a ministry.

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And then she only realized afterward that that wasn't that wasn't going to happen.

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And so that's where she found this like injustice which was. So that's the issue that she had there was that she was told to go to school and take out student loans and become educated in this way.

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And then she discovered that she was told to become a pastor by an institution that would not let her become a pastor just arbitrarily because they're old fashioned or.

24:21

And then John McGarvey told her to go home and she cried. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah. So she sensed injustice in the system which is the church.

24:30

And instead of discussing why the church wouldn't allow a female pastor it's just.

24:39

Well yeah. And you know I digress. But it all it all eventually trickles down into like well we don't.

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The Bible is not inspired. So I don't even know where to go from there because in my mind that would just then you have nothing.

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But like you've got to do it all the time. You've got to understand in most seminaries today. OK. What you're going to encounter is let's let's leave the complimentary and egalitarian thing off the side for a second.

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In most seminaries today when you look at the back two thirds of this book.

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All right. When you look at the first the first two thirds the Old Testament and you look at what God does with the

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Amorites you look at what God does to Jericho. You look at all of that material.

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What's being taught in those seminaries is that that is man's thoughts about experiencing what

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God does in the world. OK. So that's how they get around the well how could

25:45

God command the destruction of the Amorites. How could you know this is. Now those are in the classes that you know maybe people aren't paying attention in or something but those are the foundational theology classes.

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So then when you get into the New Testament and you start asking questions about roles.

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Does Christ have the authority to order his church as he sees fit. Are these things that are supposed to be passed on from generation to generation across cultural lines all the rest that kind of stuff.

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The foundation has already been laid that what you have in Scripture is men thinking about God not something that is

26:24

God breathed itself. In fact I just a scholar friend of mine sent me a article just came out huge article probably the longest article has been written since Warfield wrote his stuff on Theanoustos on God breathed arguing that Theanoustos does not mean

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God breathed. It means God loved. Wow. Now it doesn't fit in what

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Paul says but someone who is really sort of outside the scholarly realm but someone is trying to make that that type of argument.

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And so if you want to find that kind of literature if you want to find a way of looking like you're still honoring that as a important religious symbol in your life and yet fundamentally find a way around it it's not difficult to do.

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It is not difficult to do because the foundations have already been laid way back way back before them.

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Right. So it kind of in line with this is kind of moving on a track here and getting us to be able to think respond effectively to one of our last comments that we decided we want to do the show on.

27:33

And here's another conversation from someone named

27:39

John Gilmore messenger and said what is the Holy Spirit doing Jory. He is not just in the mind and she says no she referring to the

27:48

Holy Spirit is everywhere no she is everywhere which works well and sort of the modern mindset of you know the blurring and distinctions of gender and roles and those sorts of things but that is just it's an amazing comment because if we were to read scripture you're reading in scripture where John 14 when

28:12

Jesus has a discussion of the Holy Spirit he says if you love you if you love me verse 15 of chapter 14

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John if you love me you will keep my commandments and I will ask the father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him you know him for he dwells with you and will be in you and of course it goes on first 25 these things

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I've spoken to you while I'm still with you but the helper the Holy Spirit whom the father will send in my name he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you now the issue here is not about male genitalia that's that's not the issue or male body parts in terms of how the

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Bible talks about this discussion versus how Jory Micah in the 21st century wants to talk about this subject the whole idea throughout scripture where you have you know he being you know used of God or the

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Holy Spirit's Jory Micah doesn't like that she likes to blur gender roles gender distinctions and so Jory Micah refers to the

29:07

Holy Spirit as she so I don't want to sound like I'm just completely picking on on Jory Micah but she didn't come up with this yeah this is this is pretty standard again anywhere from Union Theological Seminary on down I mean that's the epitome of apostasy but everything down below that because you need to understand you're you're a hopelessly backwards narrow fundamentalist literalist and you're gonna make that a t -shirt yeah with the with the face that you had while I was doing that can we zoom in on that I'd like to see that because it was that would be great with the headphones and everything but that is the mindset is what you should say about the

29:56

Holy Spirit should be what your experience with the Holy Spirit is and your thing is working on your

30:02

Bible and it's driving me crazy and it's a beautiful Bible but you've already beat it more up than I've beaten up my na -28 in two years so I just I know anyway so the theology the theological experience today is how do you experience the

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Spirit and if you experience the Spirit in a feminine fashion then the Spirit is more than happy to be called she or her because that meets you where you are and that's what

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God wants to do because it's all about us it's all about relationship it's all about dialogue and this is the when you know we talked about Machen and we talked about the fact that Machen said

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Christianity and liberalism two separate religions yep please realize if you say that on Twitter today you know what the response is gonna be

30:54

Machen was a racist sure that will be the response and he was he was there very clear very clear statements on his part of white racism white against black racism there's a question about that doesn't change the truth statement of what he said and that is that when you look at the foundational elements of what liberalism is all about it is not fundamentally a revealed faith there is not an objective revelation that will be relevant down through the corridors of time it is very much a subjective thing and that's what you see that's why you can go to Union Theological Seminary and watch a chapel with trees walking in right and people gathered around plants you don't remember this

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I remember there is there is a there's a chapel at Union about a year and a half ago where the processional coming in people were dressed as trees and oh yes

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I think we talked about the section I mean like the ants in in in Lord of the Rings and then they had they had plants in a circle and everyone gathered around the plants and they confessed their sins against the plants

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Oh and and against Mother Earth and so on and so forth and so this is Union Theological Seminary okay this is this is this is where the new senator from Georgia went to school and and and all the rest of stuff this is this is what comes from it and there it's more

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Buddhist than Christian today all right but they don't see that as a problem because there is no objective revelation and so it all comes back to that and so when they see you reading from from there or when

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Paul says the Spirit gives the gifts as he wills and things like that that is completely irrelevant you're missing the point that the

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Spirit's deepest desire Jeff is to commune with you and if and if and if he communes with you in one way then she can commune with joy in another way you see and if you and if you don't get on this bandwagon you're gonna be on the wrong side of history and just gonna be left behind in the dust of history the way he said that actually sounded nice I went to fuller

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I heard I heard like you know how to like you learn how to sell that yeah yeah I was just gonna say that even if she was writing about the

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Holy Spirit being a she it totally contradicts what she said in the previous tweet where she said the spiritual warfare is in the mind and I think that's why that person said that to her you know but then all of a sudden all the

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Holy Spirit's everywhere you know some just well yeah ultimately I think it's a lot of nowadays it's just a it's the issue of authority you don't really want anyone or anything to have an authority over you so you just create a world where authority or power

33:44

I guess if you want to call if you want to demonize authority where it becomes evil and you know there shouldn't be one person that can have more authority over another and certainly the

33:57

Bible's not an authority over me and it's and it's an inescapable concept because even the person who you just said the person who tells you you're not allowed to exercise authority over anybody why does she want to be a pastor but I'm saying

34:11

I don't agree with that authority like what's the point the person who tries to say like you know we just need to do away with all these authorities is oppressive authorities you're not allowed to have authority over anybody they are in that moment acting as the authority over you telling you how you're supposed to live right by not having authority over anyone because we live in God's creation because we're in God's image because this is

34:29

God's world authority ultimate authority is an inescapable concept right well you see you see that with the like the pro -life pro -choice conversation all the time where people are like well

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I don't I don't have authority over you and I don't think the government should have authority over women but I would never have an abortion and I would never tell a woman to have an abortion but the point is is we don't take that sort of we don't take we don't take that method we don't use that method when it comes to murder you we trust that there should be an authority in place to take care of murderers it's it's not and it's not just practical it's written in it's inescapable right and she but she believes and she's very clear that she that she disagrees that many things are natural laws and she thinks they're societal laws which is the the foundation of a lot of reasons why people have such weird crazy liberal beliefs yep yep yep okay so final one and this gets sort of led all up to this one she says and this is what

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I sent to the pastors and said hey we should we should do something on this how many times does Jesus have to challenge the

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Old Testament for people to understand that he didn't agree with all of it y 'all really think Jesus wouldn't be challenging some of the

35:53

New Testament too if he was living today man wrote the Bible not Jesus not God's Holy Spirit man exclamation point

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I'll let you shoot at that first I want to see where you go with it and then

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I'll just make some comments and then of course it's inevitable I mean that that is what's at the foundation it was whether she realizes that that was at the foundation when she started this trajectory or not

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I can't tell you maybe that's something she discovered over time but this is at the foundation there is no

36:27

Christian theology if you do not have as your starting presupposition the idea that you can look at the

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Christian scriptures and find not some surface -level simplistic harmony but a consistency that goes from Genesis to Revelation in regards to its presentation of God and his purposes in this world there is no reason to do

36:53

Christianity if you cannot even affirm the level of belief in the that Jesus himself presents in Scripture but as soon as I say that if you're in the seminary classroom fuller and to its left the immediate response is how do you know that was

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Jesus's view so if I quote Jesus from Matthew saying have you not read what was spoken to you by God the response in the seminary classroom is that's

37:29

Matthew's words those aren't Jesus's words that's what she's saying right there she's saying you can't hold me accountable to what's there because those aren't the words of Jesus those are the words of somebody writing and putting those words in Jesus's mouth the result is you have no worthy idea what

37:46

Jesus believed right no I mean you you are how do you know how do you know about Jesus you don't from what documents yeah you don't whatever like whatever holds up to what

37:57

I feel it's whatever she in the end it's it's it's it's totally subjective in her parts whatever I feel like Jesus said yeah what are

38:02

I what how I want to interpret Jesus well the whole the whole quest for the historical Jesus you go to seminary you have to waste

38:08

I don't know how many hours studying about Albert Schweitzer in the quest for the historical Jesus and all the different phases that went through and all to get to the final conclusion that whoever does historical

38:19

Jesus stuff ends up with the Jesus that looks shockingly like them right exactly he has always even even

38:27

John Dominic Crossan who's way out there on that theological spectrum not even really a theist came to the conclusion that yeah it does sort of seem that you know if we go this direction the only thing we end up looking down a well and lo and behold we find ourselves staring back at us right yeah well in the end that's that's really the critique we have of all man -made religion right is that they're in the end their gods look like them like when they the whole pantheon of of gods and pagan gods and mythologies is it's mommy gods and daddy gods you know having baby gods and they fight with each other and they die and rise again and weird ways and things like that but the idea is these are creatures like like us we want to God in our image not the other way around yeah

39:08

I was just gonna say it's it's literally impossible to have any sort of theological conversation with her because of what you just talked about yeah because there is no objective standard for her so it all goes back to presuppositions you know so if you were if anybody wanted to challenge her you just need to challenge her on what her presuppositions are because none of it matters after that yeah and and you know and to address her theologically how many times does

39:29

Jesus have to challenge the Old Testament for people to understand that he didn't agree with all of it false that I mean you could you could say it all you want you could write about it all you want it's just a fiction

39:39

I mean you challenge it precisely I'm assuming she's thinking Sermon on the Mount sermon on this interpreting yeah exactly

39:46

I mean I mean the Jesus says when he starts engaging with what they were doing in that day in Matthew 5 17 through 19 he says do not think that I've come to abolish the law or the prophets

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I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them for truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not an iota not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same but you

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Jory will be called least in the kingdom of heaven but whoever does them and teaches them be called great in the kingdom of heaven so at least in principle you can see here that Jesus denies fundamentally denies what

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Jory claims here and if you look through the Sermon on the Mount Jesus isn't of course isn't denying what the law of God says he's he's he's engaging with what they had said about it what they were doing with the law of God you know it is interesting because you know and I talked with this

40:40

I think fairly recently at church in the section of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus well let's let's let's deal with the adultery one do you think he was disagreeing with the law of God there with the adultery you've heard it was said not it written or God says you've heard of it said you should not you should not commit adultery but I say to you that everyone who looks at the woman with lust and lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart yeah is that really is that really

41:04

Jesus disagreeing with or adding to or is it Jesus the lawgiver explaining the law in its proper function and form you know because what do sinners try to do with a law like don't commit adultery is say well

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I didn't do the act mm -hmm you know and Jesus is explaining like here's my point do you think in the Old Testament when when

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God gives you should not commit adultery that he was saying just physically and your heart is fair game like here's

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Jesus what not not trying to help and fix the law but he's trying to help and fix sinners what they do with the law and there's an example here you've heard that it was said an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth but I say to you do not resist the one who is evil but anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other do you really think that Jesus there is repudiating the law of God that says equal weights and measures and equal justice for crimes do you didn't really think a lot like Jesus is repudiated a law for proper justice in the law courts we don't want that in the law courts

42:00

Jesus didn't want that in a law courts or Jesus was dealing with their misinterpretations and misapplications of the law of God there

42:07

Jesus of course doesn't disagree with the law of God and it is interesting if you just take the gospel according to Matthew just that one portion of the revelation of God you see

42:16

Jesus his position is very different than Jeremiah's claim here I mean do not even begin to think

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I've come to abolish it I haven't come to abolish it but to fulfill it and when he's dealing with controversies in his day he actually points to the fact that their traditions are contradicting the law of God and that they're making void

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God's Word for the sake of their tradition so he's upholding what in there the law of God he's saying you're making it all void now because your tradition contradicts it and then in dealing with the marriage controversy in his day he he what what was spoken to you by God what did

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God say and he goes back to the revelation of God very different and I just want to deal with this too very important this element man wrote the

42:57

Bible not Jesus not God's Holy Spirit I'm in my mind I go okay but it says that he did the

43:04

Holy Spirit well well it says that he used men right and so this is this is the problem because the

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Bible's own presentation I mean I can't think of a text that is more specific or closer to analyzing the actual mechanics than what

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Peter says he says men spoke from God as they were being carried along by the

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Holy Spirit so men spoke so what they do is emphasize that and again in the seminary classroom what you're gonna hear is it's very clear that there is a massive stylistic difference between the

43:45

Pauline corpus and the Ohanian corpus between what Paul wrote what John wrote you can tell the same person did not write these there are huge stylistic differences there's huge stylistic differences between first and second

43:58

Peter but he but Peter is is is using an amanuensis so that may be why that's the case but the point is yeah they they they know that a lot of students who walk in there have a dictation theory of inspiration that basically men just went into automatic writing mode and so just also they wake up and there's this whole epistle there is like oh wow and that's not how the

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New Testament or the anywhere in the Bible how it is it is presented I mean Moses is given specific words yes but clearly when

44:37

Paul says bring the bring the the manuscripts the writing paper and my cloak because I'm cold this is this is

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Paul using human language to express a human desire just you have throughout the the Psalter but men spoke from God so what they're speaking is coming from God they are speaking it as they are being carried along by the

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Holy Spirit so it's far higher and far deeper but again in in the

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Academy today you're not allowed to have a supernatural element that would actually produce an objective result if you're a supernatural element it always has to produce a subjectively defined result because see in the old days that's how they defended the idea of having one theology and oppressing people because of it and all the rest that kind of stuff so we still want to have some type of mystery

45:39

I mean like I said on way out here I was listening to Derek Webb and he was he was describing Christianity as a as a mystic religion so it's it's it's all about mystic and mystery and so on and so forth well we do talk about mystery but not in the way that the mystery religions talked about mystery is very very very different type of thing so allow you to have that supernatural element but they will not allow that to then produce an objectively true revelation that is then applicable across cultural lines and across general relation lines that's problem yeah it seems to me too when people generally speaking when they tend to use the word mystery in these circles what it tends to really produce is mystery means it can't be understood don't worry sort of a thing don't apply it as you wish yeah apply it as you wish it can't really be understood it's just a mystery just mystery just sort of there's just general it's communion we don't really know mysticism the mysticism they want is a communal thing so you go sing your song you go write your poem that we're all doing what

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God wants us to do even though it's completely contradictory and has no truth has no element of truth in it yes a lot final thoughts here before jumping to the gospel coalition

46:50

I think it's a good good segue there it's a great segue because I think the final thing of both these discussions here the least place to land is the question of authority the question of by what standard and that comes up in this article as well and by the gospel coalition

47:07

Andrew Walker and it's written by Andrew Walker who is at his ethics at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary yes so the gospel coalition just came out

47:19

March 31st so very recent article and the title of the article is American culture is broken is theonomy the answer now when

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I first saw this I thought oh good it's finally happening I thought and the reason

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I thought that is is that I've always cuz you're a theon yeah I've always thought in this discussion it there there's gonna there's got to be a point where if people finally look around them as Christians and realize okay stuff is broken and it this isn't glorifying to God it's not loving to our neighbor how do we fix it so there has to be that question that's asked everything is sort of you know like cities on fire people destroying things people are calling off for justice justice no justice

48:00

CNN telling us we can't tell whether we have a boy or a girl when a baby's born yes hate to tell you

48:05

Luke but when the baby's born it's not allowed to say I'm not allowed to say boy or girl it's not obvious Luke yeah don't assume it is despite having to change those diapers it is not obvious it's not a news network it's pure activism is all it is and so the point is is

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I've been looking forward to this discussion becoming more and more mainstream in terms of it's a good thing for Christians to finally meet a place where they go this is not good and I get the sense from Scripture that we're supposed to have something to do with this and we have something to say we have an authoritative word that says something about this so I'm really glad you know

48:42

I'm really glad Andrew Walker wrote the article I'm glad that there's something to engage with here and I'm really glad that hopefully our ministry and other ministries like ours are having an effect where people are saying you know

48:54

I've heard apology I have the discussion and it sounds pretty consistent and it sounds biblical hopefully and you know

49:01

I think that sounds like the right trajectory and I think having you know these major platforms having to offer some sort of a response is good now what do

49:10

I think initially about this this article I think I agree with a friend who made a comment that it's pitiful and I'd agree

49:18

I don't mean that I don't know Andrew Walker I don't mean that to be offensive to him I think it is pitiful because it doesn't respond to what needs to be responded to and in other words

49:28

I read through the article my first thought but this is this is really poorly done this stuff is but this kind of these kind of objections have been responded to over and over and over again and in volumes and really well handled really really well and I would think that if you're gonna engage with this issue publicly if you're gonna put something out there in a public realm to engage with a position that is as old as the hills you would sort of update yourself in terms of like do they really think that and what would they say what would they say to that dr.

49:58

Walker and I both have to grade papers from seminary classrooms and when you read someone's paper it doesn't take you very long to pick up the ability to find out whether the person who wrote the paper actually interacted with the primary sources of the position they're critiquing you can tell even if they're disagreeing when

50:23

I've done a few debates and I learned a long time ago that the way to do that in an effective fashion is to critique the other side in your presentation in such a way that you're closing off every avenue of approach they're gonna have for defense which means you must know their position as well as they know it yeah you must into consideration what they consider to be their best responses to your objections so that you can make your objections all the more pointed and make it more difficult for them in trying to provide a response

51:02

I mean that's just the way to do it and so when I read this I'm reading the objections

51:08

I mean the first quarter of the article is just sort of background description things like that and then as soon as you have the subtitle theonomy is not the solution you go straight into a polemic that is misrepresentational filled with straw men sounds like the kind of stuff you would gather from reading articles critiquing theonomy but you've never read

51:33

Bonson you've you've you've probably are too afraid to have even picked up Rush Dooney and you certainly aren't reading any because there's no there's nothing in the way that the arguments themselves are stated that would seek to convince a theonomist to listen to your criticism as being a valid criticism so when you when it says the theonomy is a facile hermeneutic that channels an eschatology of triumph or this one in some the error of theonomy and I'm just looking at the article

52:07

I didn't type any of things out in some the error of theonomy ready for this is that it's hermeneutic stretches beyond the

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Bible's understanding of its own authority that got me and I'm like it was yeah I'm like okay all right look look

52:22

I'm I'm a newly minted post -millennialist so I'm I'm the newbie on the block here okay but you have just all authority has been given to me on heaven in heaven and on earth go you therefore and it's like you've got to start where the people you're criticizing start at right and there just did not seem to be an understanding of what the starting place actually is and by the way did you notice something because this explains something

52:55

I don't know if you're looking at it but I'm actually on the gospel coalition website but under every call -out you know the call -out quotes where you have the big quote underneath each one is a

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Twitter and a Facebook link you can just pop it and you can immediately tweet that particular statement with a link back to this article that's pretty cool first of all that's really well done

53:17

I'm gonna have to start doing something get on that yeah I'm gonna start doing some that's really nice but the point is it was the call -out quotes that I first saw and I'm like this these are these are terrible mm -hmm and they're the call -out quotes that are being retweeted and put on Facebook over and over again now this one here there are criticisms so severe that theonomy should be repudiated as an evangelical framework mm -hmm okay so this is not hey let's have a conversation this is no mm -hmm this should be rejected this is the gospel coalition these are the guys who for the past year and a half have been waffling over everything right well can't we think can't we see there's some good in this and so some good in that but as soon as you get to the idea actually

54:03

God's Word needs to be the final authority in this whatever we do it ain't that that's right we got to stay away from that's an excellent point that's an excellent point

54:12

I mean the gospel coalition has I think discouraged a lot of people over the last couple of years and in particular last year with some of the articles that they've shared and the things that they've suggested and to have an article that's critiquing

54:24

I think there are let's just say let's put it this way there's there's a lot of Christians in heaven haven't written now squinting in an article like this and you know tell that to the

54:32

Puritans and the great giants of the faith that were spreading the gospel and but had a theonomic framework now to be sure to be fair the word theonomy if you're not familiar with it just is two words theos nomos

54:45

God's law and so it's it is true that you have different kind of brands of theonomy and theonomist but in the end was

54:52

RC Sproul that wrote the article about theonomy it said in in in it's in a sense every

54:58

Christians of theonomist because we all believe God's law that has to be that comes from God's mouth that has to be the standard it's just how you would apply it to modern society right and so okay so it is a question of authority and it is a question of ultimates always it always is and for the person who is the theonomist they would say they would hold generally to the reform principle of Sola Scriptura that this is the

55:23

Word of God this is the infallible Word of God this is the Word of God is the ultimate standard and so if we have questions of by what standard we look we look to this if there's a question society of injustice here's here's the point do we go to Marx or do we go to Moses okay so today it's being suggested we go to Marx like we dialectical materialism we go to angles we look at their vision of the future their their their view of the world and we say you know they might have some points here like let's go to Marx on these things of social justice or do we go to Moses like if you want justice in the courts how do you get it look these are questions

55:58

Christians have to ask you can't pretend like you know you don't have to provide an answer when God's given the answer I read at the beginning of the show today that when

56:05

God gives his law to his people he describes his law given to them as a blessing there was something that was gonna be their wisdom in the sight of the people's because the people around Israel we're gonna look at these just statutes and laws and they're gonna say a system is righteous as this this is righteousness this this is what is just and so in a day that we live today where there's so much conflict and there's cries out for justice from the hearts of image bearers there's it's in it's and another one of those issues of its inescapable in God's world for image bearers of God they're going to understand the need for justice and there's going to be a pagan perverse perspective of justice and then there's of course the the justice that comes from the mouth of God and so this is an important discussion and and it really this it has to be answered because look if you push a gentleman like this to consistency

56:52

I say okay great so we reject theonomy this should be repudiated we don't look to the law of God and his stipulated standards of justice we don't do that gotcha so what do we do over here with people crying out for justice with police officers and then the court system and everything else you're a

57:07

Christian what's your answer for them it sounded like he said the new way of covenant yeah he did a lot yeah natural law so so the question is is in that becomes a fuzzy issue too because natural law how do

57:20

I know that because look there's all kinds of perverse societies have been operating the basis of natural law doing all kinds of perverse things right and so they would you know what do you say about them they're operating based on natural law and they've got some pretty perverse systems of justice injustice and so the question is ask a gentleman like this a brother like this you say okay so we repudiate the law of God we don't look to the general equity of this law we don't say you know

57:44

Psalm 119 is valid today like I should be able to sing that in church and mean it today all parts of it like that's a that's a good thing about the law of God so I repudiate all that okay so how do

57:55

I respond to the Marxist today in our streets how do I actually engage and be salt and light in our culture in these areas just does

58:03

Christianity even have an answer like do we have an answer or is it this mushy sort of nebulous like well how do you feel what do you think sort of a thing or do we actually go to the law of God and say no the law of the

58:14

Lord is good and say for example how the Apostle Paul applies it and I'll just sort of like lay down some foundations here this is really important thing because people will oftentimes say like you know

58:23

I really like the Ten Commandments like we got to keep those those are good for today in the church we like that well

58:29

I would say well the New Testament doesn't just carry over and assume the abiding validity of the Ten Commandments it does that but it also assumes the abiding validity of animal husbandry laws like when the

58:40

Apostle Paul talks to Timothy and he says you should not muzzle the ox while it treads the grain hey that's not from the

58:46

Ten Commandments that's animal husbandry and the Apostle Paul is applying the general equity of that law itself to labor post -resurrection and post -ascension that's

58:56

New Testament that's after the cross that's after the resurrection and ascension and the Apostle Paul just assumes it's abiding validity that's animal husbandry or how about don't receive an accusation against an elder unless it's in the base of two to three witnesses well brothers and sisters that's from the judicial law that has to do with the courts and guys goodness gracious you want to fix the court system today you want to fix look there's all this discussion and rightly so I like the discussion happening because I think it's really important people on death row this shouldn't be there

59:23

I totally think that's an important discussion to have you're killing people who are innocent you have people on death row that were they were convicted tried sentenced on the basis of like one piece of circumstantial evidence it's totally unjust how do you fix it how do you fix it yeah what standard are you looking to to say this is how you fix that what we're saying is theonomous is no no no look look the law of God there are transformations and there are ways that this has changed in administration in a new covenant of course we're not going to offer animal sacrifices

59:55

I don't have this priest on earth going in you know once a year to go off for this sacrifice and I'll do all the things that he's doing

01:00:00

I don't have that I don't have that physical temple there are transformations there are new ways to look at even the shadows that were given and how they're done in a new covenant but what you do see as a

01:00:09

New Testament writers will tell you here's a change this is why you don't do this anymore the Holy News Code and how that's done but you see the

01:00:17

Apostles actually have a dairy very different perspective than many modern evangelicals they ask their assumption operating assumption is the assumption of abiding validity unless there's some divine word from God as to like you're not doing that anymore and here's why this is what that was pointing to this was just a shadow this is was just this is just training the people of God here's what those things are for but when it comes to even ethical issues like accusations two to three witnesses independent lines of witness and testimony that would save the courts today in many ways or how about that how about this here you guys say one word on that how about this and then

01:00:52

I'll turn it over to you James how about this how about the law of God is this good for today can we say this came from the mouth of God we should apply that today that says in the court of law if you have a malicious lying witness come into court after cross -examination it's discovered that that malicious witness was lying and made the whole thing up then that witness should get punished with what they would have given to that other person in other words

01:01:15

Joy's on trial for murder I'm the witness against her I'm lying she would get the death penalty for murder so what

01:01:22

I would actually do it was is is cause her to die through this unjust court proceeding through my lies

01:01:30

God says here's a just penalty for the court situation if you have a lying witness here's the penalty if I'm found to be lying

01:01:39

I'm gonna get what she would have gotten now how what do you think that do for the courts today if you knew as a lying witness

01:01:45

I'm gonna get what they would have got do you think that's gonna actually protect the court system from lying witnesses

01:01:53

I think in many ways it really really will you know why most people would object to that day on a very practical level it's very simple two or three witnesses that means people are gonna get away with things please talk about the witnesses the witnesses getting the same thing that means people are not gonna come forward people can get away with things and we now live amongst the people who do not believe that there will ever be a day of judgment right in the past people recognized that people would get away with things in this life knowing that justice would be done when you stand before God yeah but there's no judgment anymore there is no justice after death and if you die having gotten away with it then you have fundamentally subverted justice and that's why people cannot look at this system and even give it the time of day you have to do justice now you cannot leave any of it up to God and when during the

01:02:55

Kavanaugh hearings and ever since then you've seen the people saying I don't care if someone gets falsely accused you can't let these people continue to do the things these people are doing and the result of course is the destruction of doing justice justice would see justice will be done there is going to be that day of judgment but in our society today there's there will be no day of judgment so we have to keep in mind the fact that for most people they hear us saying something unjust because they no longer function on the idea that we will all stand before God and judge now they still act that way when their conscience bothers them but they have but they go to they go to public schools for 16 years to have it drummed out of their brain that there is going to be any judgment in in the final and that the judge of all the earth will do right so that's that's the first thing secondly

01:03:50

I think it's important that we hear part of what the argument was yeah so let me let me

01:03:55

I think these three these three maybe five or six sentences would be good for us to I think really provide a response to from a positive perspective so theonomy is a facile hermeneutic so it's very simplistic that channels an eschatology of triumph historically undesirable it instrumentalizes religion blurs church -state relationships and jeopardizes religious dissent and it proves unnecessary because of how other covenants showcase the benefits of common grace and natural law sounds like someone has been reading

01:04:33

Van Drunen and radical to Kingdom theology right rather than become mired in interpretive problems amply demonstrated by many conservative scholars elsewhere the simplest observation to make about theonomy as a hermeneutic is that it misunderstands the relationship between the

01:04:49

Old Covenant and the New Covenant which leads to misapplications today very important I mean there's been so much work done upon it that to not even recognize that work has been done is one of the things that makes me go right did you read anything from the other side yeah it correctly stresses a continuity in the original this is this isn't this last one but listen to this and see if you if the first same thing jumps out you have jumped out at me it correctly stresses a continuity in the original moral force behind Israel's civil law it overlooks however the covenantal discontinuity in applying and enforcing the particulars of Israel's civil law especially since theocratic

01:05:32

Israel's expiration God's purposes with Israel were unique in design compared to his relationship with other nations well no one's going to deny that God had unique intentions for Israel bringing about the

01:05:44

Messiah all the rest of that but how can the original moral force behind Israel's civil law if that represented the holiness of God morals the morality then even recognizing the strongest baptistic covenantal discontinuity and I I would assume that dr.

01:06:06

Walker is aware of Baptist covenantal ism however the covenantal discontinuity in applying and enforcing the particulars of Israel's civil law well the whole element of discussion in theonomy is exactly that it is the it is the application of the moral concept the moral not the specific non -mixing of fibers or whatever else exactly that's the whole point it's the it's the moral it's the ethical question related to the character of God that and it's continuing validity that's that's what that's what the anonymous there are in there are massive books on these large volumes and huge long discussions and debates what was the debate it was a it's it's very good it's a

01:06:51

Bonson versus is it Feinberg yes fine Bonson versus Feinberg very very good and we were gonna have it at Bonson you that's coming very very soon by the way guys very very very soon and but it says it overlooks

01:07:04

I don't mean a dispensational pre -millennial way I mean very sorry it overlooks overlooks but we haven't overlooked it seems like the author overlooked the answers

01:07:14

I was gonna say he references a bunch of those books in the article but he clearly hasn't read them okay that was weird yeah so okay quickly

01:07:22

I do want to go to that but let's just just quick responses to theonomy as a facile hermeneutic that channels and eschatology of triumph historically undesirable and instrumentalizes religion blurs state relationships and jeopardizes religious consent okay so just that point there that chat channels and eschatology of triumph it's just the

01:07:40

Great Commission friends all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me go therefore make disciples of all the nations baptizing them and doing what teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you that's that's that's really that's at the heart of hopefully what the

01:07:56

Christian Church is trying to do like that's that's just it we're trying to win the nations to Jesus to make disciple them and to teach them to obey

01:08:04

Jesus I just don't understand why that's why that has to be part of the critical aspect of this

01:08:10

I think should be you should go elsewhere like if you disagree with application of the law of God you stay there in that realm and just and discuss that and there's plenty of responses like pastor

01:08:19

James says to those questions but this whole question of an eschatology of triumph and like it's blending together of triumph and like in this this thing here blurs church -state relationships when

01:08:30

I first saw that I I started to lose my respect for the article here deeply because I thought to myself is there any other group that you've read that tries to make the clear clean distinction between church -state relationships

01:08:46

I mean theonomists are very big on talking about sphere sovereignty these are these spheres of authority that God has created and like what their duties are you have ministers within church and you have the state that's called a minister of God still a minister people say that right to say we're not electing a pastor we're electing a president no you're electing a minister of God they still it's a different kind of context yes it's a whole different context it's over here to execute justice but it's supposed to be

01:09:13

God's servant so theonomy asked that question it says and it always has if it's if it's a minister of God if it is a deacon a servant of God to execute the issues of justice then by what standard should this minister of God over here in this fear operate by what standard that's the question that's always asked and and what you will find is is most certainly strenuous arguments all throughout any kind of theonomic literature that you read to show that there is a distinction between the church and the state and they have to operate within their particular realms and not blur and it's interesting because this is what

01:09:48

I thought was interesting it blurs state relationships tell that to the Puritans and the Huguenots and the

01:09:54

Christians who were part of the formation of this nation I think that they were escaping a system where there was actually a blurring of state and church relationship and they were still in many respects you would of course there's always differences between Christians but you would still see the basic operational assumption of like these people is that hey if we're forming a community we have a system of justice boy oh boy how do we deal with the issue of justice and punishment well we got to obey

01:10:19

Jesus does God's Word say anything about this does the law of God say anything about this that's how they basically operated you can look at the

01:10:24

Puritans look at the colonies look at the laws that they had nobody's saying that there was a utopia and that they didn't ever fail but we're saying their basic assumption even getting away from England and a blurred church -state relationship is well we're gonna have them obey

01:10:39

Jesus so what does God have anything to say here to the and I always mention it because I think it's important because I think it makes the light bulb come on with people beyond even the colonies and you see them directly naming the triune

01:10:49

God of Scripture and pointing to Jesus and naming specific quotations from the law of God the law of Moses in their systems of justice

01:10:57

John Jay first Supreme Supreme Court justice he even argued that in order to hold public office in these

01:11:04

United States of America you should be a submitted Trinitarian Christian to hold public office like that was necessary because this nation was in covenant with God in terms of we're a

01:11:15

Christian nation we have to obey Jesus we want to honor him and they would say things like well in order to hold public office you should be a

01:11:21

Trinitarian Christian and John Jay the first Supreme Court justice literally directly quotes from the case laws of the

01:11:27

Old Testament law and so like in this I only bring it up here to just not to spend too much time on it but at the beginning of this article this is interesting he he mentions let's see here he mentions that Luke do you spend most of your life just trying to find that little crap to get a word it's made you very patient if you he is very patient younger than 40 but it's not he says what we've seen at the rebirth of Christian Reconstruction or it's more applied form theonomy

01:11:58

Christian Reconstruction and theonomy overlap considerably yet bare distinction and then he says predominantly a movement within 1970s and 80s

01:12:05

Presbyterianism theonomy significantly influenced broader conservative evangelicalism evangelicalism on such matters as political engagement and the rise of homeschooling yes yes yes thank

01:12:15

God for RJ Rostuni I don't agree with everything the man said but thank God that all these kids say that are homeschooling you can thank a theonomist for that for sure but the beginning of the sentence that says blurs church state relationships though provides the context historically undesirable it instrumentalizes blurs church -state relationships and jeopardizes religious dissent this is the historian looking at sacralism that develops in the medieval period yeah where you end up with the church -state relationship you don't have separate separate spheres if I were to use a

01:12:58

Christological analysis what you have here is basically a mixture of the two natures of Christ so he's not fully

01:13:08

God and he's not fully man it's sort of a uticchian type idea so that's what happened historically where church and state you still had distinctions made between them but the fight was always who was gonna have the ultimacy over everything between the

01:13:26

Emperor or the Pope because they had become unnaturally joined and that sphere sovereignty had been lost so I get why any

01:13:34

Baptist I'm the one you've seen the video of me standing there in the

01:13:41

Vartburg Castle where they had Fritz Erbe the Anabaptist down there in that hole down there 30 feet in the darkness for six years before he died and so yeah sacralism you that's why it that he's going that's historically undesirable it instrument instrumentalizes religion it jeopardizes religious dissent all of that is true but we're talking about sacralism there we're not talking about theonomy mm -hmm and I don't think that the people who held to the sacralism of the medieval period would recognize what we're talking about because we're talking about general equity we're talking about looking at the abiding moral principles we're saying you need to the the church needs to be saying these things to the state and the state needs to be protecting these things about the church and they didn't have that so there's a mixture right here at the beginning of a of a different perspective that again this is where when

01:14:42

I when I read the mission of God it helped greatly to hear him talking about the fundamental libertarianism in light of sphere sovereignty that because the book in fact when it when it says rather than become mired interpretive problems amply demonstrated there's a there's a link there so you can click on the link and I was wondering

01:15:06

I wonder where this is amply demonstrated so I clicked on it and what it brings up is theonomy a reform critique from November of 1990 so that was the first place

01:15:16

I ever heard of theonomy was that book oh that was all the rage as soon as I graduated from seminary and hey this came from Westminster so this must be that Klein no

01:15:28

Barker and God Godfrey were the editors so that was the first thing

01:15:36

I saw so the first time I heard Bonson's debate with Stein all of a sudden

01:15:44

I put two and two together and I start going oh that's that guy that the they're talking about I wonder what that wonder what was wrong with Bonson that he would you know be all up because you know you graduate from seminary if Westminster seminary is putting out this big thing all these big names are associated with it must be right and you don't listen to the other side you don't read the other side and let me just give you an example was dangerous when

01:16:09

I taught apologetics at a seminary Southern Baptist Seminary for years I had my students read all was ready by Bonson but I also had them read

01:16:23

RC Sproul's and and Lindsay's classical apologetics which is an attack upon presuppositionalism yeah because as much as I loved

01:16:34

RC there were people who just get a tradition going and just despite having debated

01:16:42

Greg Bonson and have being they still end up taking the positions that they take and if all you've ever seen is this side and not read the other and I hadn't yeah

01:16:55

I mean came from Westminster then that must solid dudes I'm gonna trust him

01:17:01

I can't read everything right you know right that's what happens yeah and that's what happened to me yeah absolutely and okay so I don't go ahead

01:17:11

Luke you want to add something I wanted to say I wanted to I wanted to say something just about the history here just a quick thing and then but you go ahead well

01:17:17

I think there's just there's an underlying something to underline here that we haven't talked about and the title of the article is

01:17:26

American culture is broken is the enemy the answer as a theonomist I would say no it's not the gospel is and that's what's missing in this whole thing and that's that's what is one of the biggest attacks against the enemy is you guys want to change things top down through law and we're saying no we want to change it bottom up through the gospel has to start with the gospel it's ironic because this is the gospel coalition that they're missing this that's where it starts right and it works its way up a theonomy is the answer to justice mm -hmm that's not the answer to fixing the culture it has to start with the gospel and that's the thing that's missing through all this and so that's what

01:18:01

I got when I read this article I not to be fair to Andrew Walker I thought the first third was actually one of the better explanations of the time that I've read and then when you like when you said is it the answer then it just right off the cliff yeah and it has to start with the gospel and that's that's that's what that was first thing you mentioned yeah and and the whole idea of forcing this upon people misses the reality that from the theonomic perspective you're looking at the promise of the

01:18:31

New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 I write my law upon their hearts that does not say

01:18:37

I will use my law to redeem them by making them do these things that no to write upon the heart is to make some it becomes precious to you it becomes you recognize that it represents

01:18:49

God's holy nature this is how I know what God would have me to do this is why I want to see this applied this is how man

01:18:56

God created mankind what is just and right it's what is just and right and so it flows from the changed heart so obviously this is a theology that requires

01:19:06

God to be able to save and to save many at the same time yeah this let's let's admit a theonomic system with a synergistic gospel understanding would be yeah for sure that would be disastrous and that's what you had with Rome mm -hmm but with monergism what we're saying is there's and this is this is what got me this and obviously theonomy and post -millennialism are connected at this point you look at Psalm 110 you look at Psalm 2 you look at Isaiah 40 you see the connection to 1st

01:19:45

Corinthians chapter 15 you've got this overarching theme of the victory of Christ willed by the

01:19:54

Father brought about through the power of the Spirit but that is going to mean that his people are the ones being saved

01:20:02

God has to power it has to have the power to be able to do that and so according to Hebrews chapter 8 which I've been arguing for a long long time now in regards to certain other issues according to Hebrews chapter 8 those who are in the

01:20:13

New Covenant they don't say to one another come let's let's learn about Yahweh because they they already know him why because he's written his law upon their heart each one of them their sins have already been forgiven right so you have to have the ability on God's part to bring about mass repentance and regeneration and revival for any of this to for the fulfillment of those passages

01:20:37

Psalm 110 Isaiah 40 the coastlands but what but when they're when they're converted what do they want the coastlands long wait for his law his

01:20:46

Torah because they want they want to please God there because their hearts have been changed you don't if all you've got is the medieval mysticism of Roman Catholicism you can see why that led to the kind of sacralism that the even the

01:21:01

Reformers imbibed and inherited yeah and that's why we can sit here and we can go thank

01:21:09

God for Ulrich Zwingli and at the same time go he would have drowned me off the bridge in Zurich because he would have yeah and it's hard for people they're still hanging on to some of that stuff it's still it was still there it is so hard for people to understand because I told you when we went to Germany in 2017 before the before the 500th anniversary

01:21:32

I told the people on our group I said most of these men we're gonna be looking at would not have extended the right hand of fellowship to me and many of them would have cast me out of their presence imprisoned me and some of them would have killed me and the people are looking at me like what are you talking about one terrible tour guide

01:21:51

I paid money for this but by the end they understood that you have to the the only option is to make a caricature of the

01:22:05

Reformers and turn them into something they were not sure and the only way to understand why Zwingli could say the wonderful things he did and and defend the gospel and do the things he did and then turn around and stand there while Christians are tied up and lowered into the river until they bubble for their third baptism and killed you you have to have an answer for that yeah and most people live in this netherworld where they're never never gonna talk about that I mean

01:22:36

I'm just gonna leave that out there no you have to have an answer for it and the answer comes from the fact that they imbibed these traditions from the people who came and they could not understand a culture that did not have that but there had already been errors that the gospel had been smothered over with this synergistic system the sacramental system long before this and so you join synergism together with some type of form of theonomy or sacralism and that's that is ugly yeah but that's not what we're talking about that's right gospel first see

01:23:05

I may do a lot of talking and he squeezes his in but he usually says the most important stuff so that was it the issues the issues the gospel the issues the gospel and the transformational power of the gospel but that watch this here's what's interesting about it so it's it's the gospel gospel gospel first that's what's gonna change hearts and minds you go make disciples because he has all authority you're preaching the gospel repentance and faith but the standard for the child of God is steady yeah it's the same it's

01:23:32

God's Word it's God's law it's not supposed to be the subjective realm of like well what do you think or how should we handle this it's supposed to say

01:23:39

Christians supposed to have the basic mindset of saying well the law of God is good and so if God has spoken to something you look to that to say okay what was

01:23:48

God's standard and when he spoke to the issue of justice here what did he say so this is an issue too because it comes up we say well you know here's the deal like we just need to love our neighbors love

01:23:56

God and love our neighbor fantastic thank you for giving me the entirety of the law of God because love for God and love for neighbor

01:24:02

Jesus says all the law and the prophets are built upon love for God love for neighbor so just take for example so for those you guys are new to this discussion this would generally be what people say they'll say you know

01:24:11

I really like the Ten Commandments let's keep that like I'm not down with the whole theonomy thing and looking at God's law and say what's a general equity of this law how does that abiding moral principle flow but I really like the

01:24:21

Ten Commandments the whole thing don't lie don't commit adultery don't steal don't murder those things are great

01:24:28

I think we should keep those today those are abiding well don't you understand that when when you get the specific instances in God's law say in the book of Deuteronomy like here's what you do to the thief don't you understand that that's

01:24:43

God's moral and just response to handle the person who does steal so you should not steal and then

01:24:50

God says and here's what you do to the thief if they do steal right in whatever context they steal in God says this is justice make sure they're paid back in full all of that but you know what's amazing today we don't recognize the goodness of God's law and his justice in those areas so we decided to create a system ourselves a moral system of justice it says what do we do with thieves well what do we do today we create a system that says well let's lock them up into a cage maybe for sort of an arbitrary period of time maybe they never pay back the victim and then society pays a criminal penalty for the thief for his actions and what

01:25:26

I mean by that is that the community around the thief and now has taxation that I would say is not ultimately just and right to pay for the thief in jail for his crime we are penalized

01:25:38

God's law has a system of justice that actually creates harmony make sure there's justice and doesn't penalize the community around for the crime of the person who's the thief and so there's all kinds of ways that this can be spelled out in terms of loving your neighbor but God tells you here's how you love your neighbor don't steal from them and if you do steal from your neighbor this is what is just in to make sure that that's made right again and so God has of course answers to all kinds of things in the law of God here's one this came up in the

01:26:08

Feinberg discussion I think it's important because it finally you listen to the Feinberg Bonson debate it's free right now at cmfnow .com

01:26:15

you need to hear it you need to hear it's really important because after Bonson I think very effectively just dismantles the the the premises of Feinberg he finally just asked them the big question is it okay to have sexual relations with animals under the new covenant he struggled he did because where are you gonna go for that because if you say fundamentally

01:26:39

I can't go back to that law of God revelation of God what he spoke in that issue I can't

01:26:45

I've already said that that's gone I can't appeal to that anymore it's not relevant to modern society you've got to say well what is your standard than the

01:26:51

New Testament okay where's the saying a New Testament that you know this isn't allowed the Christian has to finally come to that breaking point where they go

01:26:58

God's already spoken on that right God's already spoken on that how do I know that's wrong immoral sin because God's already spoken on it and that's the that's the that's the assertion of the theonomist when it comes to something that is a moral principle it's abiding in God's revelation it's it's an issue of justice what we say is

01:27:16

God's already spoken on that that's how that's where we go for the answer it's not just up to me but it's interesting because this isn't a new discussion the one thing

01:27:23

I didn't fully appreciate and I never do because it never seems to come up in this discussion is when you talk about like this was a big popular new movement by Bonson and Rush Dooney and everything else is you know it's only about 50 years old it's like that's just not fair guys because if you look through Christian history you will find everywhere all over the place you'll see people famous Baptist famous Presbyterians you look at the

01:27:47

Giants and they have the same operating principle well God already said because that's how you do it because God said because he says it right here because God's law says you'll find it everywhere

01:27:56

I mean I give an example of just this in history hey Luke have you ever noticed the difference between Jeff and I when we're preaching what

01:28:03

I'm actually actually I'm asking because you're because you're going you're going too fast when

01:28:09

I'm preaching I can look at a clock and understand oh yeah there's no clock and Jeff I know it does not work that there is no there is no time thing yeah so I know we only have a few minutes left on the program

01:28:20

I'm gonna read this and shut up I'm gonna read this and shut up okay here we go now remember week four last yeah you started preaching before you started preaching you were doing your introduction during the introduction part the introduction and I walked up to you yeah and interrupted you yeah

01:28:38

I know what that you know he and Zach said when I walked back said only you that's right away with that yeah sermon a that's yeah that's true okay

01:28:49

I'll go fast this is the Kingdom of Hawaii Constitution this is 1840 1840

01:28:55

Kingdom of Hawaii Constitution you don't know the story 20 years of missionary work led to the Hawaiian Islands over 90 % professing faith in Jesus Christ down to their

01:29:02

Constitution here's what it says God have made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on the earth in unity and blessedness

01:29:08

God has also bestowed certain rights alike on all men and all chiefs and all peoples of the lands it's here

01:29:13

God has also established government and rule for the purpose of peace this is the Kingdom of Hawaii's Constitution 1840 check this out here's what it says it is therefore a fixed decree one that no law shall be enacted which is at variance with the word of the

01:29:29

Lord Jehovah or at variance with the general spirit of his word all laws of the island shall be in consistency with the general spirit of God's law 1840

01:29:37

Kingdom of Hawaii you see when missionaries would go to foreign lands when those people to Christ and they were establishing now a

01:29:45

Christian civilization let's call it what it is they would say law of God the general spirit of God's law these people were theonomous that's theonomy that's 1840 we can push it back you can go back and back and you can find numerous examples of exactly the same thing when

01:30:01

Christians go and they win a nation to Christ the nation goes how shall we then live what should we do and the question is where do you go for that answer and theonomous says to the good law of God I'll shut up now no you won't but very very quickly this paragraph theonomy is right to criticize our society's lawlessness but the alternative it proposes presupposes a

01:30:23

Christian society that does not exist and where it once did did not contain the theological coherence to perpetuate itself so that there is the assumption that he's having before that the sacral the sacral concept that was in the medieval period is what we are actually looking for which it is not but here's the question

01:30:43

I think that does need to be answered before we wrap up and if theonomy is right and history is working toward the telos of a

01:30:50

Christianized society why does precisely the opposite seem to be the case great question says the guy who's writing an article in relative peace on the internet sending it across the world in a world with more professing believers alive today than any point in history but but but what this shows is a general misunderstanding and it wouldn't come from actually reading from post -millennialist you wouldn't get this but a general misunderstanding of what post -millennialism would say or even a theonomist would say in terms of the trajectory of history and where it's going when first Corinthians 15 says

01:31:28

Christ is reigning now and he must reign until all enemies are placed under his feet and then the last enemy is death so every enemy then death when that said the post -millennialist recognizes that history also has moments of historical judgment moments where a nation is unfaithful to God and they're judged

01:31:44

Psalm 2 says for the kings of the earth to obey the Sun or they'll perish that's true today the nations are

01:31:51

Jesus the ends of the earth are his inheritance but if the kings of the earth don't obey Jesus they're gonna perish and that could be from a pagan king that doesn't obey

01:31:58

God's law and in Jesus or it can come from a once professing Christian nation that no longer affirms his lordship abandons his goodness and his justice they'll also be judged but the point is is it's

01:32:11

Paul that says all enemies and then death is defeated and so we see historically it's more like a mustard seed to a tree it's it's more like leaven in a lump of dough the trajectory isn't and this is not something

01:32:25

I've heard post -millennialists say it's only gonna get better and better and better no what we see is well we started with some very confused disciples after the resurrection of Jesus and now we have

01:32:37

Christians right now broadcasting globally about the gospel in Christ and his lordship and goodness in Phoenix Arizona in the desert on the other side of the world that looks like progress to me but it's a it's it's really it's ultimately a misrepresentation you know a post -millennial thought well and you know someone asked that question of Doug Wilson recently and his his analogy was if I'm on the east side of the the

01:33:02

Rocky Mountains and I want to and I'm going to the top I'm gonna have to go up for a while and go down for a while and I'm gonna go up a long ways but then down into a valley and and so it's not all just a straight -up line but I one of the issues that I have that I'm thinking about a lot is putting enemies under Christ's feet what is one of the are there any new enemies mm -hmm that had not existed in the in the past and secularism see

01:33:34

Darwin opened the door to a new era up until Darwin everybody had to go well there's got a sort of deal with God because there is life and life's really complicated and it couldn't have just arisen from nothing well

01:33:50

Darwin opened a door and there's nothing more Antichrist who is the one in whom all things hold together than secularism so how does

01:34:01

Christ crush that enemy under his feet could we see a situation where there is a lengthy period of deep darkness so that secularism expresses itself in its fullness and is crushed mm -hmm can that fit into a post -millennial concept and so if it can

01:34:23

I hope it didn't happen of course of course we don't want that to happen but at the same time what we're watching around us makes you go

01:34:32

I mean so there just seemed it just seemed to me it just seems so odd that the gospel coalition who unfortunately over the past number of years has been putting out so much stuff that is it's wishy -washy it's well how about this how about that it didn't you know a lot of woke stuff developing within it and stuff like that you finally get to the one place where we're saying hey we can say the society this is what

01:35:05

God has said and that's the one time they're gonna stand up and and and bring somebody from Southern Seminary in to say that's not an option everything else there's lots of options but that is not an option and then in the process not even come close to giving a recognition that the author is seriously listening to a

01:35:27

Joe boot or someone like that and going okay I know what they've said I know what their response is and therefore

01:35:32

I'm going to make my criticism very pointed and provide an answer in my criticism that wasn't there that was completely missing yeah yeah

01:35:41

I was just cuz I think it was our seed that described that as a roller coaster but trending upward so I'd like Doug's analogy to I think those are both really great and just in closing here the the tattoo question came up and there's a big debate in the live chat and you know about God's law and stuff

01:36:00

I'm not even we don't have time to get into it we've talked about this like for hours none of these none of these are eventually none of these for ancestor worship none of these are for the dead well you know there's the threefold law civil moral ceremonial you're talking about the ceremonial which

01:36:15

Christ came to fulfill thank you well the discussion on the the meaning behind the text

01:36:22

James has written I can do it in three minutes but James has written not written did a sermon spoken and it's it's it's important to understand

01:36:32

God's law in its original context and God's law how it applied yeah I live it this way

01:36:37

Leviticus 19 is still applicable because what it's talking about first of all we don't know exactly what's talking about kaka is a hop oxygen on the

01:36:47

Hebrew term that is used there we don't know exactly what it refers to whether it was permanent or non -permanent but what we do know is it was done for the dead when you look at the

01:36:57

Deuteronomic parallel in Deuteronomy 14 1 it's you shall not shave a circle on your forehead rather than the whatever kaka means well that was obviously temporary well for me permanent but for in those days it would be temporary the issue was why were they doing this it had to do with either the blessings of the dead or more likely the curses of the dead and so what's the abiding moral principle we are

01:37:22

God's people we do not concern ourselves about the dead they do not have the power to hurt or to harm us and that is continued that does continue to be valid today because there are

01:37:31

Christians all over the world that are scared to death of curses of the dead absolutely

01:37:37

I was mentioning this to a friend in Ukraine once and he's like oh man you would not believe how pop religion here they have people are so concerned about what the dead are gonna do and stuff like that well here's there's there's an application so yeah we have talked about we're gonna do a big long thing on that so we should we should make that happen very very soon but the point is it's like Lucas communicating its body art isn't the issue these sorts of things it's not even that's not even in the realm of the discussion of what's going on there and or in the realm of the discussion of what we're yeah well we're talking well yeah

01:38:09

I mean the law yeah the law but and how would it apply because people will say that well you know if you believe the law is abiding today we doing

01:38:15

I get it yeah that's why I want to go into that text and say okay what was actually being discussed here what is why why didn't you notice the

01:38:25

Deuteronomy 14 1 is the parallel in the Deuteronomy canon to this and then interpret why not interpret this text the way you would interpret almost any other right right yeah very good all right guys thank you for joining us apology of studios commas where you go to get more sign up for all access partner with us to make everything we're doing possible

01:38:43

Bonson you is coming yes it is Bonson you is definitely coming we have a date

01:38:49

I'm gonna announce it soon and we will be working very very hard to make sure we are putting up the almost 2 ,000 sermons and videos up on that as soon as possible but we're gonna launch it and start it with some important courses for everybody so Bonson you is coming that's

01:39:07

Luke the bear peace out joy the girl yeah dr. James white get him an alpha Omega ministries a omen dot org listen to the dividing line it'll bless your life my wife says that there is a consistent theme in my house and James White's voice is always in my house it's because listen to the dividing line same day for you no he's like no no

01:39:28

I do actually I've been I've been playing catch -up right now on your because you put like three years of content up there and I'm like oh my gosh