Matt Slick vs Tim Kernan

Hi, my name is Matt Slick. Hi there, my name is Tim Kernan, and I am the founder and director of the

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. I'm an evangelist for the City of Angels International Christian Church, and I have the pleasure of being invited here to speak.

And today, we'll be discussing whether or not water baptism is the point of salvation.

People are justified by faith. Is it necessary, water baptism is absolutely necessary in order to be saved?

Well, I would just answer that with Isaiah 59.

First of all, it's actually an honor to be here. And, you know, I was looking over some

YouTube videos, and I watched your videos and read your sites, and I watched a number of,

I mean, the Internet's actually packed with debates on this subject matter going back many, many years.

And I found myself sort of feeling sad during the debates just because I felt there was a lack of love.

I think that people were trying to crush each other and whatnot. I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to speak up to you throughout the entire debate because you're an older man than I am.

And also, you know, my main point of being here is to talk to you, regardless of if anybody else is impacted by my words.

To answer that question, I would go to Isaiah 59 here in verse 1 and 2. It says,

So what separates us from God is our sin. When that sin is forgiven, that's the moment of salvation.

Some people get confused because they think that the moment of salvation is when God loves you.

God always loves you. And they think that the moment they love God is when they're saved.

No, that's not the moment that you're saved either. When we look at Acts 22, starting in verse 16, a scripture you're very familiar with, it says,

Paul referring to his own baptism, referring to his own coming to relationship with God.

He says, So, Paul was not saved on the road to Damascus, even though he called

Jesus Lord. He wasn't saved when he was obeying the commands of Jesus.

He was saved at the moment that his sins were washed away. And I study the Bible with people every day who can tell you that they became a

Christian at this point, they became a disciple at this point, their sins were forgiven at this point, and they were saved at another point.

But really, you're saved from God's wrath because of your sin when your sins are forgiven.

And that is the point of baptism. So let me ask you a question. So is water baptism necessary for salvation?

Well, again, I would just simply say you are saved at the point that your sins are forgiven, and that happens, your sins are washed away at the point of baptism.

So let me ask you a question. Is water baptism necessary for salvation? I'm answering you very, very clearly that your sins are forgiven, and that's when you're saved at the point of baptism.

So you're saying that you must, okay, there's yes. Yeah, absolutely. So we cannot then be saved without being,

I'm assuming you believe in immersion. Yes. Okay, so you cannot be saved from our sins without being immersed in water in baptism.

Baptism is the point where your sins are forgiven. According to this scripture right here.

That's called begging the question. You're assuming the thing to be true that you're trying to prove, and that's what the debate here is about, is a discussion. So it's called a logical fallacy of begging the question.

You haven't established that as being true yet. So what you're saying is that someone is not justified by faith. I'm saying,

I mean, so you're asking the question, is someone justified by faith alone? No, I said you're not teaching or you're denying that people are justified by faith.

Romans 5 .1, having therefore been justified by faith. It's an air, it's participle. If one's saying there that it's an action that's occurred, still occurring by faith, justified by faith.

So what you're, just to try to understand what you're saying, just because if I were to say yes to that,

I'd be putting a lot of words in my mouth. So I'm just going to try to put it together here. So what you're saying is that you're taking one scripture that says you're justified by faith.

You're eliminating all the other scriptures that seem to, that talk about other steps. And you're going by that one scripture.

And you're trying to pull that out of the scriptures and say that that's the only one that matters. Is that what you're doing? No. I just said that verse says this.

Yeah. There's others. So that verse says having therefore been justified by faith. If you teach that baptism is necessary, water baptism is necessary, then there's no exception to the case.

Otherwise, it's not necessary. It's a simple logic. So there can be no instance at all where anybody could obtain any place with God in their salvation, in their justification by any means other than by the application of water to them.

That would mean then they're not justified by faith. Romans 5 .1 happens to say that. You can go to Romans 4, verses 3.

Romans 4, verses 5. Ephesians 2, 8, and 9. You can go to Romans 3, 4, and 5 altogether. Galatians 2, 20.

Go to various verses. But what the Bible's teaching is justification by faith. Justification is a legal declaration of righteousness where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to our account.

Philippians 3, 9. We have a righteousness that's not our own. The righteousness of God is given to us. It's called imputation, to reckon to another's account that which is from another.

So we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. That occurs at faith. Having therefore been justified by faith.

Romans 5 .1. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then we're not justified by faith. We're justified by faith and a ceremony.

So if it's by faith and a ceremony, it's not by faith. Okay. Well, you've said a lot here, so let me try to engage it bit by bit.

First thing I would say here is in Romans 6, starting verse 2.

By no means we died to sin. How can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death?

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised through the glory of the

Father, we too may have a new life. So baptism for God.

Now, you mentioned a very interesting word there, ceremony or ritual. And I would just simply ask you just to get started.

Where in the Bible do you see the word ceremony or ritual associated with baptism? Well, it's like where's the word trinity?

It's not there. The issue is, is the concept taught. A ceremony is a religious occurrence that's usually instituted by a religious leader.

Circumcision is a ceremony. Communion is a ceremony. Baptism is a ceremony. I perform ceremonies in marriage, funerals, baptism, things like that.

It's a symbol. It's a symbol. At the very least. And so is this ring of my covenant bound with my wife.

Okay. I would reply to that by referring to 1

Peter 3, starting in verse 18. When God waited patiently in the days of Noah when the ark was being built.

In it, only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water. And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also.

Not to remove the dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God, to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Absolutely. So what we see here is that the flood was a symbol of baptism.

The only place where I see symbol and baptism coming together is that the flood is a symbol of baptism.

But for God, according to the scriptures, baptism is a symbol of nothing. And I would just ask you to show me somewhere in the

Bible. Because I think this is a central point of your doctrine. To show me somewhere in the

Bible where it says baptism is a symbol. Well, I'm not saying it's just a symbol. The issue is not that.

The issue is are we justified by faith in Christ alone? Or is baptism a requirement for salvation?

And you're saying it's a requirement for salvation. And logically speaking, that is a denial of justification by faith. Which is a heresy.

Sorry. Which is a heresy. So you're telling me you cannot show me anywhere in the Bible clearly that baptism is a symbol.

Well, see, it's not an issue of saying the words. Baptism is a... Or a symbol, or a ritual, or a ceremony.

Well, it's definitely a ceremony. By definition, it's a ceremony. But in your opinion. You want to tell me what a ceremony is?

Well, right here, I just try to go by the scriptures. The Bible says here that the flood was a symbol of baptism.

Baptism is not a symbol of anything that I can clearly see in the scriptures. The word there in Greek is antitupon.

It's an antitype. It's a representation of something else. What does the water... That's right. What does the water represent in the previous verse?

It's called the antecedent of the adjective here. The antecedent there is either the ark or the water. What saved

Noah? Was it the ark or was it the water? I have to plead ignorance of the

Greek. I just go by what the Bible translation here says. And what you... What saved

Noah. What you said does prove the point. What saved Noah. It's a symbol or whatever the term you used there.

That it was a symbol of baptism. But again, I have to reiterate. Can you show me clearly anywhere in the scriptures where it says the baptism is a symbol of anything?

I can't find a sentence that will say baptism is a symbol. Okay. It doesn't negate the option or the idea or the truth that baptism is a ceremony.

See, the thing is, a ceremony is a religious rite that people perform and they go through.

That's a fact. I've done weddings and that's a ceremony. Communion is a ceremony.

Are you going to tell me that baptism is not a ceremony? Well... Because if you say yes, it's going to go on. What I would tell you is that I would not hinge my beliefs on something that I have sort of derived from my own opinion and thoughts.

I would try to hinge my beliefs on the scriptures. So, therefore... Didn't you just abide by faith?

Because I'm hinging my beliefs on the scriptures, I would...

To answer your question about faith alone, I mean, I think the glaring scripture is in James 2, starting in verse 20.

Do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son

Isaac at the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together and his faith was made complete by what he did.

And the scripture was fulfilled that says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

And he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

So, despite the fact that there are many, many people who... They're number one. I mean, they can break down their

Christian faith into a bumper sticker that simply says faith alone. The only place in the

Bible that says faith alone is preceded by the two words not by. And so, as someone who just wants to be as humble as possible before the scriptures,

I have to conclude that someone cannot be saved by faith alone.

Well, context is one of the killers of heresy. And the context of James 2,

I'm going to Romans 4 to prep. The context of James 2 starts in verse 14. You say you have faith, but you don't do what's necessary to demonstrate that that faith, that your faith is useless.

It's of no value. It's talking on the horizontal in James chapter 2. You show me your faith.

I will show you my faith by my works, by what I do. That's called the horizontal between men. And then he goes on in James 2 .19.

You believe, you do well, the devil believes also. And he trembles. And what he's talking about there is a difference between theology called assentia and fiducia.

I'm not trying to impress anybody with these words, but just terms. Assentia means nothing more than a mental assent.

Fiducia is a heartfelt trust. And what's being spoken of there is what's called assentia, just a mental assent.

You believe God exists, you do well. The devil believes also. That's the kind of faith that's being talked about in James 2.

It's not the faith of salvation that's before God. And we know that because the same verse that you quoted there is also quoted in Romans 4.

And I'll read you Romans 4, what it says here. In James 2, he's talking on the horizontal.

You show me your faith. I'll show you my faith by my works. If you don't have any works that go with that faith, then that faith is useless.

You don't have anything. And then he quotes there that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Now, when we go to Romans 4, what then shall we say that Abraham our father, according to the flesh, has found?

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. So he's talking about the vertical between God and man.

James is talking the horizontal between man and man. And he goes on. For what does the scripture say, verse 3?

Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The same quote. Now, to the one who works, his wage is, excuse me, his credit is not as a favor, but as what is due.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

No works. That is faith alone. Even the word faith alone there isn't there. We know because there is no works.

Circumcision, according to Galatians chapter 3 and Galatians chapter 5, is something that the

Galatian church was advocating as a necessity to enter into salvation through the ceremony.

In Colossians chapter 2, verses 11 and 12, Paul equates circumcision and baptism. And he does that, having been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, having been buried with him in baptism.

He equates the ceremony of circumcision with the ceremony of baptism. And in Galatians chapter 3, you foolish

Galatians, who has bewitched you to think that that which has been begun by the flesh, excuse me, begun by the spirit, can be perfected in the flesh.

Are you going to try and be right with God by faith and what you do? He says no. And in chapter 5, he says you've been severed from Christ.

Notice the pun in dealing with the issue of circumcision. He says you've fallen from grace, you've been severed from Christ. Interesting topic we can get out of that.

What he's doing there is talking to us about the necessity of faith alone. That's what is going on in Galatians.

That's what's going on in Romans. And in James, the context is not about justification before God by faith, but before men by faith alone.

We can't have that before men. It can only be before God by faith, Romans chapter 4. But before men, we have to demonstrate our faith, which is why it says in 1

John 2, 4, if you say you know him and do not keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. Okay.

Just to be totally humble before you here, I got to admit, I don't understand about half of what you said. Let me say it again.

Just because you went in so many different directions. Okay, Romans 4. And so, what I would say is, but what

I did seem to catch there was that you're saying that, in fact, you are saved by faith alone.

When the Bible just finished saying you're not saved by faith alone. Let's go to James 2 in the context. And I think that, if I may just finish my thought here, the scripture that I would bring to you, even if I were to follow your line of reasoning, in Titus 3, starting in verse 5, it says,

He saved us, not because of the righteous things we have done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and the renewal by the

Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, being justified by grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

So, this scripture clearly says that that washing, that scrubbing that's being done under the water, is not being done by us.

In fact, it clearly says here, it's not by any righteous thing we have done. Therefore, baptism is not even a work in the first place, any more than having faith, verb, having repented, verb, or getting baptized, verb.

Well, you find no word necessary for salvation there anywhere. But let's go back to James 2, verse 14.

What use is it, brethren, if someone says that he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

What faith is he talking about there? Enlighten me. He says he has faith, but he has no works.

Can that faith save him? It's a dead faith. Does it say baptism is necessary as anything?

What I seem to read here is, what good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith and yet has no deeds?

Can such faith save him? So, therefore, we're talking here about faith, we're talking about deeds, and we're talking about being saved.

In the same sense here that we're talking about justification in verse 20.

So, saved, justification, faith, and actions working together.

It's not possible to pull them apart. And even Abraham was saved by the faith and actions that he did.

That's what clearly seems to say here in the book of James. Well, let's look at what it actually says in the context, verse 15.

Excuse me. My apologies for the clearing the throat thing. Did a lot of talking in the past few days.

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them,

Go in peace, be warmed, and be filled, and yet do not give them what is necessary for their body. What use is that?

Even so, faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, you have faith and I have works.

Show me your faith without your works. I will show you my faith by my works.

The horizontal. Verse 19. You believe that God is one, you do well. The demons also believe and shudder.

The demons have faith in God. But it's a dead faith. It's essential. It's mental ascent.

It's knowledge. Yeah, God exists. And that's what we're talking about here. That's what James was talking about. Can that faith save them?

Yeah. So somebody says, yeah, I believe in God, and they go out and they do some bad things. Well, I have a problem with your profession because your actions don't match it.

That's what's going on here. You say you have faith and you have no works. Can that faith save you? It's a dead faith.

He's talking about the manifestation of faith on the horizontal level. That's it. When he goes through this, he speaks of the demonic faith.

That's the kind of faith that's being represented here. Not a Christian one. That's what's happening here,

James 2 .19. You believe in God. You believe God is one. You do well. The demons also believe and shudder.

Why is James introducing a demonic faith concept into this discussion if we're talking about Christian faith with good works, the means by which we're saved?

He's talking about false faith. He says, you show me your faith. I'll show you mine. This is how. That's what's going on.

So Abraham was justified before us, before all, and everything that's going on, by the demonstration of what he did.

But Romans 4, as I'm showing you, says not by works, not by anything. And he was justified by faith before circumcision.

Because it says Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. What was reckoned to him as righteousness?

His belief? Absolutely. And when did that happen? When you have faith.

That's what it teaches. And he says in Romans 4 and 5, he says, and to the one who does not work but believes, his faith has reckoned him as righteousness.

That's what Paul is teaching, on the vertical, before God. So if I was to say to you that I am justified by what

I do and not by faith alone. Before men. Would you agree with that statement? In the context, before men. So, you know,

I believe that you believe this stuff, and I would expect fully. I'm just asking, do you agree with the statement that you are justified by what you do and not by faith alone?

What do you mean by justified? In what context? Well, in the context of verse 14, which says saved.

Before men. So you're saved before men? What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith, can that faith save him?

He has no works, can that faith save him? That faith is not a real faith. It's a dead faith. Right. Obviously, we have a teaching in here of a false faith and a real faith.

Would it be possible for you just to answer the question, if I can repeat it again.

Would you agree with the statement that someone is justified by what he does and not by faith alone? I can't answer the question the way you want it, because you're not giving enough context.

Okay. Would it be possible for us to move on to the next? If you want, sure, let's go on to the next thing.

Okay. So you still deny justification by faith? Well, here's, can I tell you a little, can

I give you an example? Okay. So imagine, now my son's only three years old, playing in the backyard there.

But let's say at some juncture, you know, he's 16 years old, he's in the shower. And my wife wants some milk.

And I were to shout into the bathroom, hey junior, would you mind going to get some milk for your mom?

Then I go back to my reading. 20 minutes later, I get a heavy knock on the door, and you have two police officers there with my naked son.

And he were to say to me, hey dad, listen, I just got arrested obeying you.

And I would go, officers, what happened? Well, we saw this naked guy crossing on a red light.

He went into a store, stole a carton of milk, and was halfway back to your house here when we arrested him for civil disobedience.

And we'd like you to explain it to us. I would be shocked and alarmed. I'd say, junior, in this family, we teach that we always walk out of the house in clean clothes.

We teach that we cross the street, we look both ways when we're crossing the street. We always pay for what we're buying.

And we come back, you are telling me, and you believe perhaps that you're obeying me, because you're taking one little snippet that I told you, and you're applying it in the most extreme possible sense.

But actually, what you're doing is disobedience, because you're not obeying the fullness of what I've taught you to do.

And I believe that the Bible is the same thing. Having studied various different things, and having been in the military for a number of years,

I love the manual style. How do you get saved? By the numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

But the Bible just doesn't talk like that. The Bible teaches us as a father teaching his children.

And therefore, it's important for us to obey everything, and it is not obligated,

God is not obligated to shout into the shower, Hey, hear the word of God, believe the word of God, repent, confess, and get baptized.

He's not obligated to do that. There are certain junctures where the Bible just appears to say, believe and get baptized.

There's other junctures where the Bible says, have faith. There's other junctures where the Bible just simply appears to say, believe or repent, etc.

It's our responsibility as people who are being taught by a loving Father, to obey all the commands in the appropriate way in order to truly obey

Him. And the sense that I have from your teaching is that you grab certain scriptures that seem to say, just by faith alone, and you jump on that without understanding the role of other things.

And I think this plays to our society as a whole. I think we've got a fast food society that just wants to jump bases.

I really believe today in California, you've got about 75 % divorce. Why? Because people are just not doing things right.

You spot an awesome sister at church, go on some dates with her, then you date steady, then you get engaged, then you have your wedding, and then you're married.

In the same respect, we hear the word of God, we think it's awesome, then we believe the word of God.

The moment we really believe the word of God, and we start being cut by Jesus' life, at that juncture, that's when we say, man,

I think I need to repent. I need to change some stuff so I can be like Jesus. Then we make a confession that Jesus is

Lord, which is not abracadabra, and not some kind of magical words, but it's just simply a contract where I pledge to fully obey

Jesus for the rest of my life as His disciple. That's when I get baptized at that juncture as a disciple for the forgiveness of my sins.

What is it that separates me from God? My sins. When those sins come down, that's when

I have a relationship with God. I do not believe for one second that stopping my sin is a work.

Stopping my sin is stopping sinning. It's not a work.

The law is called the works. The Ten Commandments say, don't do this and do do that.

So that's what it is. So you believe that stopping sinning and following Jesus is a work.

The work of the law. He says, don't do this. Don't make idols. Don't have false gods.

Stop that. If you have them, you stop. That, by definition, is obedience to the law of God. That's called a work.

So it's work for me to sit on this couch. Okay, maybe we're not having the same conversation here.

Talking about Exodus 20 and the law as an example. Don't make idols, for example. Is that a work?

Let's say that you're an idolater. I asked a straight question. Is not making idols a work?

Okay, I'll answer the question. Exodus 20 is called the law. The works of the law.

By the works of the law, no flesh will be justified. By the works of the law, no flesh will be justified.

The Bible clearly tells us. You go to Galatians 2, Romans 3, Romans 4, Romans 5. In that, we're commanded in the works of the law to stop.

For example, we just use one of many things. Stop making idols. Don't do it. A cessation of something is called a work.

Because it's the representation of the law in the Ten Commandments. Don't do these things. Don't make idols.

You will not do that. Don't even use the Lord's name in vain. And we consider all this part of the law, which is summarized as the works of the law.

So yes, according to the Scriptures, yes. So what you're saying is your repentance is a work.

You're saying, I'm going to stop sinning. And you're saying it's not a work. But it actually is, by definition, what the Scriptures are telling us.

God commands everyone to repent, Acts 17 .30. We're obligated to obey God. But that obedience is not what saves us.

So the clearest, just to get the clearest answer possible, stopping sinning is work.

Yes, according to what I just told you, what the Bible says is works.

The works of the law, Exodus 20 says, for example, don't have idols. Stop doing that.

Don't use the Lord's name in vain. The don'ts are even considered to be a work. Okay. That's what it says.

Unless you want to go against that. Well, I just find it illogical to me and unbiblical that to stop sinning is a work.

Is it a good thing to stop sinning? Yes. We go back, when we stop sinning, to our normal state, which is to be obedient to Christ.

Our normal state? I don't believe. Our normal state is sinful. Well, our state that God intended us to be in is not to sin.

The state that Jesus was in was not to sin. In Luke 14 here, starting at verse 25, the

Bible says, So, according to the

Scripture, Jesus, who, I mean, it's fair to say he can tell us what to do, right?

Jesus tells us that anyone, so who's the anyone that he's talking about here? Anyone.

Anyone is everyone, including our awesome friends behind the camera, including everybody who's here.

Anyone is everybody in this whole neighborhood, in this whole world, who wants to come to me.

And a lot of people know that you've got to go to Jesus to get to God, but they don't understand that to go to Jesus, there's a state that you need to be in in order to go to Jesus.

He grants us repentance. And the Scripture says he's got to hate his family compared to how much he loves

Jesus, and he's got to be a disciple. So, therefore, according to the

Scripture, and I don't think Jesus would ask us to do anything unbiblical, Jesus is saying that everyone must, which is pretty big words, everyone being anyone, must meaning you now create a bottleneck that everyone needs to go to Jesus through, must be a disciple, carry his cross, follow me.

Now, would you say that's a work? Yes. Okay. And so, therefore, Jesus is a heretic.

No. Okay, so Jesus says that you must do this. Absolutely. And you believe that you must do this.

To be a disciple, yeah. Okay, to be a disciple. Right. And who's a candidate for baptism? Is a disciple. Who's a candidate for baptism?

Is being a disciple what makes you a Christian? Who's a candidate for baptism?

Believers. Okay. Does being a disciple make you a Christian? Well, I would refer to Acts 11, starting in verse 25.

The disciples were called Christians in Antioch. So, therefore, Christian is a nickname for disciple.

Does being a disciple? The word disciple is the word that Jesus used and the word the Bible uses about 300 times, and it's a nickname.

So, for example, just to finish my thought. So, for example, in England, where my first son was born, they've got nicknames for everything.

You've got bobbies who are called, you know, police, they call them bobbies. You've got chippies who are carpenters, sparkies who are electricians, etc.

And would it be appropriate to call me a chippy if I'm not a carpenter?

No. Right? Would it be appropriate to call me a bobby if I'm not a police officer? No. Therefore, would it be appropriate to call someone a

Christian if they're not a disciple, meeting the requirements of Luke 14 that Jesus just laid out? That's not what I'm talking about.

But that's the question I'm asking you. No, you need to be a disciple of Christ. To be a Christian.

In order to manifest your Christianity as being valid. What makes you a Christian? Is it the work of following Christ, or is it faith in Him and the regenerative work of God?

He grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2 .25. He grants that we believe, Philippians 1 .29.

Our believing is the work of God, John 6 .28 .29. You can't come to Him unless you're drawn from the

Father, John 6 .44. You can't come to Him unless it's been granted to you from the Father, John 6 .65.

We're born again not of our own will, John 1 .13. We're caused to be born again, 1 Peter 1 .3.

He chose us for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2 .13. It's the work of God that saves us, not our being a disciple that makes us a

Christian. It's the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerates us, that changes us, 2 Corinthians 5 .17.

Made new creatures in Christ. That's what makes us a Christian. The manifestation of that is being a disciple.

You've got the cart before the horse. You're saying you've got to be a disciple in order to be a Christian. No. You're a

Christian in order to be a disciple. When Jesus is talking to these crowds, and He says,

Anyone who wants to come to Me must. Absolutely. So, everybody must do that.

Now, you prescribe that as a work. Is that right? No, no, no. You're confusing. No, I'm just trying to clarify.

No, no. You're confusing. You said, if I may, I patiently waited while you were rhyming off like 24 scriptures.

I'm just using a couple scriptures here. The scripture that I'm trying to use is very straightforward.

Jesus talking to a crowd says, Anyone who comes to Me must. Therefore, they've not come to Him yet.

Right? But if they want to come to Him, they must be a disciple. In order to be a

Christian, you've got to be a disciple. That's what you're saying. That's right. Now, you prescribe that as a work.

Can we define what it means to be a disciple? In order to be a Christian. We just defined it. What does it mean to be a disciple? Jesus clarified that anyone who comes to Him must carry

His cross, deny Himself, hate His mother, father, brother, sister. What must you do to be a disciple? I believe that you need to stop sinning.

Okay, stop sinning. What else have you got to do to be a disciple? I think the moment you stop sinning, you're a disciple. Okay, that's it.

So stop. You don't do anything positive. Stop being selfish. You just stop doing negative. Stop being selfish. Stop being disobedient to God.

So you don't have to be a Bible. You don't have to go to church. Just stop doing the bad stuff. When the moment you stop being selfish and you start obeying

God in an incredible way, then you become a disciple. What do you got to do to obey God? Well, the moment you stop sinning, you're obeying God.

It is a sin to not obey God. All right. I'm asking you for a list of the things you've got to do in order to be a disciple, in order to be a

Christian, in order to be saved. I'm asking you for the list of works that you're teaching we've got to do. And I know you know this. I'm asking you for a list of works that we must accomplish in order to be a

Christian. So what do we have to do? Go to church? Get baptized? Read the Bible? Not sin? Not see that R -rated movie or whatever it is?

Is there a list of things that we've got to do as a Christian to claim to be a Christian in order to keep our salvation, obtain our salvation?

Because you certainly are teaching or justified by faith in a ceremony, in baptism. And you're saying you've got to be a disciple to be saved, which is saying you've got to stop these sinning in order to be a

Christian. Well, what else have you got to do in order to be a Christian? You have a list of things that you're teaching.

What I'm simply doing with the most straightforward Scriptures possible.

You're not doing that. I'm simply saying if you want to speak, you can go ahead. Well, thank you. You're not doing that.

You are giving me a list of things that you have to do in order to be a disciple, in order to be a Christian.

You're saying you have a set of works you've got to do. This makes you a flaming heretic.

You're teaching not justification by faith alone in Christ alone, but by faith in Christ and baptism and not doing this and not doing that and you've got to do this and you've got to do that.

That is what we teach. The cults teach and Roman Catholicism teaches. You're no different than them and no offense meant, seriously.

But what you're teaching is damnable heresy. You're causing people to go to hell because you're requiring of them a set of stipulations and works that you've got to perform in order to be saved.

You're taking them away from Christ. This hurts me to know that you're doing this and you're going to go to different places and you're going to be teaching these people these lies from the devil and teaching them you've got to do these things in order to be saved.

We do nothing to be saved. God grants us repentance. He grants that we believe. He gives it to us and as a result, we follow

Him. As a result of our regeneration, as a result of our change, as a result of the saving work of God, we do these things.

Those aren't the things that save us. Being a disciple isn't what saves us. What saves us makes us a disciple.

You should know this as a teacher of the Word. You should know that this is the case. Having therefore been justified by faith, now go follow

Him. Now be a disciple. Not to be a disciple in order to follow Him and be a Christian because you're teaching nothing more than Roman Catholicism and His doctrine of salvation.

So tell me, you said you can't do this. You can't lie, for example. You can't cheat. You can't steal.

Which I would say, don't do those things. But what must you do in order to be a disciple of Christ? Which you said you need to be and do in order to be a

Christian. So what are the things you've got to do to be a disciple that makes you a Christian? You must make

Jesus Lord of your life. Lord of your life. What else? The moment that you make Jesus Lord of your life, this is not like saying abracadabra.

This is not like saying hocus pocus. When you say Jesus is Lord, anyone living at that period of time would fully understand that you entered into a slavery relationship with Christ and you're going to obey everything that Jesus commanded.

What are you going to do? Not only are you going to obey everything Jesus commanded, but you are going to teach others to obey everything

Jesus commanded. What have you got to do? I've already answered your question. Okay, so you must read your

Bible? You're trying to create a list, and what

I'm trying to answer the question is in a biblical and spiritual perspective. I'm saying that the moment you make Jesus Lord of your life, you must do everything in order to be a

Christian. The straightforward answer here is that if anyone wants to go to Jesus, I'm just quoting scripture here, he must hate his mother, father, brother, sister, put

Jesus absolutely first in his life. He's got to carry his cross, which is not a little gold thing you put around your neck.

It means violent personal persecution, which I faced myself planting our church in Congo, for example, and be walking the walk as a disciple.

Now, this is the words of Jesus. Now, according to the scripture, when I look at here, the moment that I'm cutting this mustard and I'm a disciple, then

I can have the nickname Christian. Now, a disciple is who gets baptized.

Let's take a look here, if we can, in John 4. Who gets baptized?

Somebody who barely understands what it means to follow Jesus? No, in John 4, it's very clear.

The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John.

Although, in fact, it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. And so, what we have here is, in the most clear sense,

Jesus has pulled the world out of these people. He's detached all of their addictions.

He's detached all of their little perspectives. He's detached them of their opinions.

They're in their proper state, which is in total obedience to God, the way God intended us to be, to be disciples.

This is actually not a work that, in the sense that you're thinking, that earns you a paycheck or anything like that.

This gets you nothing. In fact, when you do this, you don't even deserve a thank you, according to Jesus.

And these people who have pulled themselves, who have detached themselves from the sin of the world, the practices of this in the world, and yet they're still culpable for their prior practices, these are the people who are candidates to be baptized according to the

Scriptures. Can you show me someone who's not repented getting baptized? Of course not.

Yeah, because they must do that. You should repent and be baptized. And this is not something that earns you a paycheck.

This is not something any more than the work of believing or the work of repenting or the work of anything else.

Believing is a work, incidentally. It's the scrubbing that Jesus does under that water,

Titus 3 verse 5, that forgives of our sins. And the moment that your sins are forgiven, well, now you're into a saved relationship with God.

And many, many people are confused about that. I'm not. And, you know, you've accused me a number of times, on camera and off camera, of being a heretic.

And I would simply say that there's nothing that I've said today that has not been directly from the

Scripture, and I've not had to pull tons and tons of snippets together and do that.

And I don't want in any way to be disrespectful to you, but my sense is you're going a lot off pulling little things from the

Bible and your own opinions, for example, on ceremonies and rituals that have no basis in the

Scriptures. Well, it's your opinion that I'm doing that. Let me ask you a question. May it not happen, though, that you were to die today, but the hypothetical situation, suddenly you're facing

God. A meteor comes and blasts us all out into a vapor. And you're standing before God, and He asks you,

Why should I let you into Heaven? What would you tell Him? I would say Jesus died on the cross for my sins. That's it?

By faith alone? I would say that I am in Christ through baptism.

The only time that the Bible talks about being in Christ is through baptism.

So I would simply say that I'm in Christ. Galatians 3 .27? Any Scripture that talks about being in Christ is associated with baptism.

For example, Romans 3 .6, 1 Corinthians 12 .13, or Galatians 3 .26. That's not correct. In Christ is a phrase of federal headship.

Another topic. There are many places where the phrase in Christ is not associated with baptism. Many, many places. I've done a big study on that particular thing, out of the doctrine of federal headship.

Nevertheless, you're standing before God, and He asks you, Why should I let you into Heaven? You're going to say because you believed.

That's faith alone. But you don't believe faith alone. You believe in faith and baptism and being a disciple.

That's what you're going to be saying. What I believe is the first person who's going to say something when

I get to Heaven is Jesus, and He's going to say, Well done, good and faithful servant. Jesus says in several places things that are worth looking at.

But let's get back to water baptism. Yes, we are. Okay. Because I'm going to show you something that Jesus said.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax gatherer. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself,

God, I thank you that I am not like other people, swindler, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax gatherer.

I fast twice a week. I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector standing some distance away was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to Heaven but was beating his breast saying,

God, be merciful to me, the sinner. I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other.

Jesus is teaching salvation by faith alone, not by baptism. That's what He's teaching right there.

He was justified. You were hoping to get my head in the noose to drop the floor out there, but I didn't.

That's a different verse. I didn't sit there and say any of the things that you just finished saying. Did Jesus teach that this guy was saved by faith or by faith in baptism and faith in works?

You're going to Jesus and saying that you've got to be a disciple in order to be a true Christian. But He's saying

He's justified and He didn't do anything. Jesus taught this, Luke 18.

I'm not sure how this relates to the New Covenant or water baptism. But that being said, what

I would like to... Excuse me. The New Covenant, which is instituted and begins at the death of Christ.

Hebrews 8, Hebrews 9 for that, the death of the testator, the New Covenant is in effect. But yet you go and you quote

John 4, which is before the New Covenant's institution, as a means of verification for the baptism.

If you go to John 3, you're violating your own principle here, so it doesn't make sense. But what Jesus is teaching here is justification by this man's faith only.

Well, in Acts 2, starting in verse 38, the Bible's Peter here says, who's ushering in the

New Covenant, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you'll receive the

Holy Spirit. The promise is for you, for your children and for all, including everybody here who are far off, for all who the

Lord our God will call. Is that a formula for salvation? It's one of the most authoritative and clear scriptures with regard to how do these non -Christians who are cut to the heart because they've heard the

Word of God, they believe the Word of God, and now they're wondering what to do next. They've got to repent, confess to Jesus Lord, get baptized in order to get their sins forgiven, which is a work that God does.

I'm not under the water scrubbing somebody. Jesus is. They get scrubbed down of their sins, and according to the scriptures, in the clearest way possible, baptism is the point where your sins are forgiven.

That's not what the Bible says. Well, it is. Apparently this man in Luke 18 was forgiven by nothing more than his appeal to God.

He was justified by faith, Jesus taught. Under the Old Covenant. That's what Jesus taught. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong in the

Old Covenant by faith because it says about the law? Well, what I would refer to you here is... We can do something a little bit different.

In Hebrews 9, I don't mind. In Matthew 7, 22 and 23, Jesus says,

On that day, the day of judgment, now we're talking new covenant in the future. Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, in your name perform many miracles?

And I'll say to them, get away from me, I never knew you. They were appealing to their faith and what they did for their salvation.

You earlier were saying you've got to be a disciple in order to be a Christian, which is an issue of what you're doing. Which is why

I ask you this question. When you face God, what are you going to say? You said initially, just believe in you.

That's faith alone. Then you changed it to other things. So what you're doing is you're saying, by faith and what you do, which

Jesus condemns on the day of judgment. He says, those who do that are cast out. They are workers of iniquity, they are evil, get away from me.

I never knew you, which means you're never saved. I'm amazed that you seem to be arguing not with me, but with Jesus.

Because Jesus says you've got to be a disciple. I'm not saying you don't have to be a disciple. The scriptures are very, very clear.

You've got to, a disciple is a Christian. Why do you ignore what I read to you about what Christ says? And then you go to this disciple thing, which

I've already answered. In Luke 18, you're not answering it. And you go to other verses. And then you refer to scriptures that have to do with the old covenant.

Matthew 7 .22 .23 is new covenant. When we look here in Hebrews 9, the Bible says, so that's new covenant at that juncture.

Is that what you're saying? Matthew 7 .22 .23 is the day of judgment. Okay. When we look here, you're referring to Jesus forgiving somebody in Matthew 9.

In Luke 18, Jesus taught justification by faith alone. In Hebrews 9, starting in verse 15, the

Bible says, For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is enforced only when someone has died.

It never takes effect while one who made it is living.

So, here's what I find very interesting about your argument.

You seem to refer to Abraham being saved by faith as a reason why

Christians should not be baptized. I didn't say they should not be baptized. I never said that. Or why Christians don't need to be baptized.

I didn't say that at all. It's not essential for salvation. It's not what I'm saying. It's not essential for salvation. You're saying it's not necessary in order to be saved.

It's not necessary in order to be saved. Would you tell Moses or anyone following Abraham who was part of that covenant that they did not need to be circumcised?

No. No. Why? Because they must be circumcised. In the same respect, the apostles, just like Abraham, were saved by Christ, right?

When he washed their feet, he says, you guys have had your sins forgiven. But that being said, at the beginning of the new covenant, which is ushered in by Peter, who has the keys, who says you've got to repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins.

You can't, in the same respect, tell Moses or any of the descendants of Abraham they don't need to be circumcised.

You can't tell Peter or any of the descendants of the Christian they don't need to be baptized. That's not what

I'm saying. I'm not saying they don't need to be baptized. Okay, so they do need to be baptized.

They should be baptized. Okay. But not for salvation. I can prove it's not necessary with our last script.

We only have 10 minutes. So you can show me that your sins are forgiven somewhere other than baptism.

Absolutely. Okay. By faith. Go ahead. Having therefore been justified by faith. That's easy.

Okay. And you can negate all the scriptures about baptism being the place where your sins are scrubbed away.

You don't even realize what you're doing. It's called begging the question. You assume what you're saying means what you actually think it says.

It's not the case. I think every single person on the face of the earth assumes that what they think they're saying is true.

Not always. People do lie knowingly. So you're right.

I do assume that what I'm saying is true because I'm simply quoting Scripture. I know you're not lying to me. I'm simply quoting

Scripture. Yeah. That's all I'm doing. While Peter was speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

This is Acts 10, 44 and following. Verse 45, all the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the

Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting

God. Then Peter said, Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the

Holy Spirit just as we did. They then got baptized. Now, Romans chapter 3, verses 10, 11, and 12 says an unbeliever will not exalt

God, doesn't seek for God, doesn't do anything good. 1 Corinthians 2, 14 says the natural man does not receive the things of God that are foolishness to him, doesn't do these things.

Ephesians 2, 3, we're by nature children of wrath. Jeremiah 17, 9, our heart is desperately wicked and deceitful, no man can trust it.

Jesus says in Matthew 7, 22, Mark 7, 21, 23, that out of the heart goes murders, adulteries, rapes, pillaging, all kinds of evil.

They're not saved, according to you, because they haven't been baptized yet. Yet, they're exalting

God, which the Bible says unbelievers can't do. And they're speaking in tongues, which is a gift to the

Christian church, to those who are called out by God to be saved. That's what He's teaching. So, they're speaking in tongues, and they're glorifying

God, and they've received the Holy Spirit, just as Peter said he's received. And yet, you would say they're still in a state of damnation.

How is that possible when they've received the Holy Spirit, just as Peter and the apostles had? And they're exercising gifts, which is only for the

Christian church, speaking in tongues. And they're exalting God, which unbelievers can't do. The non -regenerate, the non -saved don't do.

What do you say about that? Okay, well, I would answer very briefly in two scriptures.

Number one would be John 8, 31. To the Jews who believed Him. Now, according to you, at this juncture, they received the

Holy Spirit. And Jesus said, if you hold to my teaching, you're really my disciples. Again, coming back to disciples.

Then you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So, these are people who believe in Jesus, and they physically look like Abraham.

Which I'm sure would have been adorable to Jesus. And yet, He says, you guys got to be disciples.

Very interestingly as well, a little bit later, in Acts 19, starting in verse 1.

While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, did you receive the

Holy Spirit when you believed? They answered, no. We've not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. And so, it's very clear to me that the critical point of salvation is the forgiveness of sins.

And you receive the forgiveness of sins at the point of baptism. You didn't address the scripture

I raised. But nevertheless, you had the last word. We've got to close. I'm being told we've got to close.

I want to thank you for this time. I take what I do very, very seriously.

And I want people to have faith in Christ alone. Not faith and something else to be saved.

All we need is in Christ. Everything we have is in Him and His work. He grants everything to us by faith.

I'm not going to add anything to it. Whether it be obedience of any sort in order to be justified before God. My obedience is a result of my salvation.

Not a contributing factor to it. And that's where we differ greatly. But I want to thank you for bantering with me.

Thank you. And if I could just offer closing remarks as well. I really believe that the plan for the whole world is that every single last person becomes a disciple of Christ.

I think that if everyone becomes a disciple who's truly made Jesus Lord, obeying everything and seeing themselves as a slave of Christ, and making disciples, that literally the world will become like heaven on earth.

I think that the scriptures are very, very clear that Christ does an incredible work of saving us from our sins at the point of baptism.

And I really enjoyed our conversation today. And I'm looking forward to any other time you want to get together.