The American Churchman: The Daniel Penny Verdict

Welcome to the American Churchmen podcast where we encourage men to live out their biblical calling and Obey the Word of God and know God deeper and be men and act like men of courage. I am your host John Harris with me my co-host Matthew Pearson.

How you doing Matthew?

I'm doing good John and I'll ask you the same thing. How are you doing? We didn't have any any time beforehand to start talking. We just jumped right into it. So you've been doing good, man.

I've had a long day Basically been running full steam since about 5 a .m. So I'm a little tired but doing okay. I was actually on another podcast and I was yeah Like I have to end right before like 10 minutes before I can't go in of course, it was like three minutes before so I Threw everything together and here we are but happy Daniel penny day.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, what a what a glorious thing. That is. Oh, we just keep we're gonna. Trump said you would get tired of winning and I'm I'm Matthew. I still not tired. Keep me accountable. I don't want to get tired.

I don't want to get tired, but You won't you won't get tired of winning. Don't worry. Okay. All right. You have to hold me accountable. I need to count up.

I got you. I got you. No worries. No worries.

So we're gonna talk about that today. The whole Daniel penny thing which happened an hour and a half south of me it was in New York and People don't take the subways in New York anymore. The Daniel penny thing actually was one of the incidents.

There was a bunch of them. I mean, but that was one that people just said, you know what? I can't do it and What a day to be alive. I'm so glad that he was exonerated. We also oh, you know what before I forget I think we have a website now.

So I should probably find that and show it.

And your camera just cut out John. I don't know what's up with that. Oh.

There you are. I can yes. Yes. Yeah, I disappeared for a second. All right, so It is this is the first time I get to announce this. I've been saying we have a we should have a website, but we actually have one.

The American churchman .com. The American churchman .com is the website and that's just where you can find our podcasts and Links and you can share stuff on social media if you want to. We really appreciate that.

Of course, we're powered by truth scripts. So if you want to donate to the cause of the American churchman, you can go to truth script. Calm scroll down to the bottom where it says donate, but here's our own web page.

There it is the American churchman podcast in audio form. Video form and just tells a little bit about us too. So if you want to know more about Matt Pearson Or me, I guess you can you can find out about us right there.

So there you go. And we'll probably add more stuff as the time goes on. I don't we haven't really talked about merch or anything. I mean that seems like today with podcasts. You're supposed to have merch.

I don't know. Yeah, I mean got a rake in the cash somehow, you know.

Yeah, I was I was just sure I was showing you by other upload that I'm doing right now. But we are in rumble. I should say that we are in rumble to people want to check us out, but YouTube Twitter X Now is where you can and Facebook is where you can leave a comment if you have a comment or a question for Matthew or Myself, so, all right before we get into Daniel penny and stuff.

Let's talk about the attributes of God. What are we doing today?

Yes, so today this one may be a bit shorter. Partly because this is more so just an expansion on our on our attribute last week which was God as spirit and then also just because I sort of threw this together very last minute because Hurricane Milton and Helene pushed classes a little bit into a weird schedule.

So my day was a very long day today was in class from 9 to 5. So literally 9 to 5 job for today, but um, yeah, it's gonna be on the invisibility of God. So just to get us started with I'm going to read to Bible verses break down.

What the invisibility of God is and some of the implications for certain debates held among Christians and things like that. So the first Bible verse we'll be reading is from Deuteronomy chapter 4 verses 14 through 16 and it reads.

And the Lord commanded me at that time. This is Moses speaking by the way and Lord commanded me at that time to teach you Statutes and judgments that you might do them in the land whether you go over to possess it.

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves. For ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you and horrib out of the midst of the fire. Lest ye corrupt yourselves and make you a graven image.

The similitude of any figure at the likeness of male or female. Notice in verse 16 or verse 15 there talks about how they saw no form in the day when God spoke to them. Colossians 1 verses 13 through 15 the Apostle Paul states who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood even the forgiveness of sins.

Who is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature? So these verses lay out here that well, at least in Deuteronomy. Part of the reason the Israelites are prohibited from making images is because in the day in which God spoke to them There was no form of him revealed and this is further clarified.

Why is there no form that God has revealed himself to them in well. That's because God in and of himself as God does not possess a form. Remember our attribute last week was that God is spirit. That means he is incorporeal.

He is without a physical body. So because of that the invisibility of God is an attribute which necessarily flows from the fact that he is a spirit He's incorporeal and from the fact that he is simple.

God is not made up of parts which include physical parts because if he was made up of a physical part, that would be corporeal that would therefore be Visible in some sense of the other so for God to be invisible is to say that his very essence is not something which can Be perceived by physical eyes.

Now there are asked there like moments in Scripture where God will condescend and Reveal himself in some form or the other but the form by which he reveals himself is never the very essence of his own.

Being so for example the burning bush. When God appeared to Moses Moses perceived the burning bush He saw the bush burning, but is it really right to say that he necessarily? Saw the invisible God in that moment.

No, of course not. So this is just a very important doctrine because like I said, it flows from The fact that God is spirit it flows from his simplicity and one of the primary reasons that we have the second commandment as I mentioned earlier is Which prohibits the making of great images is that any image which tries to depict God will necessarily fall short of his glory.

By virtue of the fact that he is not able to be depicted because he is invisible. You cannot fully capture his essence. And this is a very important conversation to have because there this leads to a lot of the debates within Christianity among differing Traditions such as the reformed tradition over against some other traditions where there's debates over whether it is permissible to make images of Christ because notice in Colossians 1 verses 13 through 15 it says That Christ is the image of the invisible God and so people will say okay.

Yes.

Christ is God. But because Christ made himself visible and because the prohibition was against making images was because God is invisible therefore we can now make depictions of Christ who is God because Christ has revealed himself.

And We who are reformed who may hold to the traditional reformed position as I do We would push back on that in numerous ways like a while saying yes God Christ did become visible. We still don't actually have an image of what he looked like any.

Attempt to capture the an image of Christ even in his own like a humanity would still fall short of who he is because he is divine and because his Divine nature has sanctified his human nature such as that even in his human even in his humanity.

You can't really capture the perfection of who he is because he was without sin. So but that's a whole other conversation for another day, but I think that the invisibility of God Plays a good role and helping us understand debates between those who say images of God are permissible or not permissible Etc. Etc.

But yeah, that is the invisibility of God in a nutshell and he would have to be invisible to be.

In all places to be everywhere. I mean some of these other these attributes That we talk about do all fit together and some rely on others. To to be true or to make sense, I suppose.

So.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of a I guess it's one that's taken for granted. Like everyone understands that God's spirit and that means he's invisible and he can manifest himself. But it does have implications.

So thank you. Yeah, I appreciate. Certainly.

I think a lot of these things are just it's so many of these attributes are things that you kind of just already know. But it's not until you like think about them. You're like, oh, yeah that actually matters.

Which is good because this is all very theoretical stuff but theology as Petrus van Maastricht puts it is both theoretical and practical and so if you can only Theologize and think about theology, but it doesn't actually draw you towards contemplation of God in order you towards love of him.

Which then orders you towards love of neighbor like it's kind of you know, it's all in vain. So. Yeah, that's why that's why I appreciate these little attribute of God discussions.

But well I appreciate you and taking the time to explain this to the audience. And I don't know if your seminary work. Oh, but I should ask that like how is your seminary stuff going? By the way? I mean, I know you take your class all day last week.

You had a lot of tests coming up. That is true.

Yeah, so I was taking four classes a semester. I finished two of them now. And I just have one final paper due on Friday, and then I have to have my Greek exam finished by next Tuesday. And so that one I'm not worried about the paper.

That's gonna be cake. I'll be fine. It's the this Greek exam that I'm getting nervous about. Greek two has been a.

Participles and all that them in one semester Greek Greek one and two.

No, I did. Greek. Greek one intensive over the summer is about three weeks. So Monday through Friday from Monday through Friday from 8 to 12. Oh.

Goodness, yeah, I don't. Man, that would be tough jamming a lot into your head over a course of three weeks. Yeah, that was not fun. It does I don't do so.

Yeah.

Well, all right, well Let's let's talk about Daniel Penny a little actually there's a few articles we could talk about Daniel Penny's where we want to camp out here, but I wanted to Just ask you if you had watched gladiator 2.

Have you saw. I've not watched you don't have any time. You're in seminary. What am I? Okay, so you haven't watched gladiator 2 there we have a review of gladiator 2 up there and basically, it says it's kind of a Second class kind of a dumb movie.

Don't go see it unless you want to see it. Disappointed it's if you expect gladiator one, it's not that but it goes into the details of why that is. So anyway. We also had a piece on the website about The whole you know woke right James Lindsay American reformer stuff.

So if we have more time, maybe we can go into that as well. But right now the big story of course is Justice done in the penny acquittal time and Klein wrote this for us. Mm-hmm, and we're gonna have him on one day.

Yeah, actually, we probably could have had him on, you know on my other podcast the Iranic Protestants podcast.

I invited him on and he came on and that was the one episode. That I was not able to make with him with him on it. I'm so sad because I forgot it was my ex-girlfriend's birthday that day. We were not exes at the time, but maybe say.

It.

Doesn't sound. I can see the regrets that you have for not being able to be with Simon.

Yeah, because I'm not even with this girl and I miss timing just to talk to this. Whatever. It's no big deal.

We're past that the the issues that zoomers have. All right. Well time in was. Was gracious to write this. He's an attorney. It says editor-in-chief of American reformer and director of scholarly initiatives at the Hale Institute of New St Andrews College and a fellow at Craig Center at Westminster Theological Seminary.

Good grief. That's a mouth busy, man. Yeah, my goodness. I didn't even know he was a fellow at the Craig Center at Westminster Theological Seminary. He doesn't tell me these things. Quite an accomplished guy.

Mm-hmm.

And.

He this is a short piece, but he talks about.

How a.

Quote from or a paraphrase from Thomas Carlyle that heroes provide patterns Dispositions and actions to emulate. And this story you want to put the article on screen. Oh, is it not on screen? I'm sorry.

No. Yep, I would love to do that. So you're excellent. There we go.

And.

This whole story is about heroes. Psychology today. He says lamented that men lack role models. You actually talked about this when you I had you on the conversations that matter podcast that Trump is a role model for so many Gen Z guys because they literally don't have any role models anywhere.

Yeah, certainly so. We're lacking in that and when we get a role model sometimes like Daniel Penny who does something brave. He's then punished for it and it just what society should do in recognizing someone who's who's heroic and brave.

We do. We do the opposite and oftentimes kick those people to the curve and it's not right so and I would say that like there is like a bit of a.

Parallel between like I mean, they're obviously not at all the same by any stretch really. Um, but I mean Daniel Penny and Trump can both like be seen as I've been in like somewhat similar situations.

Just with him. It was on a more individual smaller level. Whereas what Trump? I mean, he the guy was already rich. He didn't need to do any of that, but he intentionally like put himself in the way like for this country.

You can say oh it was for his pride or his ego. But the fact is the guy could have retired very comfortably and easily and now like he almost got locked up. He's almost gotten killed. What two three times now.

He you could tell that like he's you know, it's a it's an act of heroism on Trump's part. He's actually Sacrificing something to do it now people can roll their eyes because oh, he's only the most powerful person in the world now.

But again, the guy has money he could have retired very easily lived a very comfortable life. Not had any charges against him same way Daniel Penny could have just you know Turn the other just walked the other way and not interfered.

So, you know, there's yeah. We don't have to downplay like the the connections that could possibly be there just on very different levels. Yeah.

That's a good point. So, I mean is is Daniel Penny? I mean this was from what March 1st 2003 when or 2023 when this started. For people who don't know he was on the subway and there was a guy on the subway who was making threats and Homeless guy as I understand it, but he ended up It appeared that he was.

He was threatening people we'll put it that way and they Daniel Penny and and I don't think he was the only one in the video that was Trying to get this guy to calm down. But Daniel Penny is the one that ended up putting his arm around this guy that put him in a chokehold essentially.

And.

He's a marine. I think he was 24 years old if I'm not mistaken and He was part of his training. I wasn't intending to kill the guy but the guy I guess ends up he dies being put in the chokehold and so I'm.

I don't know if you want to add any details to that. That's quite the summary that I just gave but yeah.

That's about that's about it. I mean that there are there are like some some similarities as well to the the Floyd situation.

So yeah, yeah and Kyle Rittenhouse and yeah.

So.

He puts him in this chokehold. And of course seeing the Floyd situation. I remember the optics of it and especially being in New York I thought oh no, you know, I think we're all scared that we're gonna see that again and when Trump won I literally thought I was driving in Tennessee and I was like I'm not gonna make it home.

Like I need to hunker down for a few days like it's gonna be bad and nothing happened and After this happens it nothing ever happens. Yeah, I think actually I wrote this down this morning because I was reading an article in the Daily Signal about it, but So I didn't know this but Hawk Newsome who he's come up before I think on my other podcast.

He called for black vigilantes to descend into major cities Monday to retaliate.

So.

Here's my question has BLM run out of steam. Because I mean maybe that we're still waiting for it to happen, but I haven't seen anything substantial materialized whereas in 2020 this would have been like crazy, we would have been seeing flipped over trucks and people stomping on police cars and Like what what has happened that is one of the things that I Have wondered a little like I I think I can gander at an answer, but Some it is remarkable that in the course of just a few years It's kind of a ho-hum, you know, the left is mad that they're not really doing anything I don't know that did the money dry up like what's going on?

So anyway, that that's what Daniel Penny did and He ended up going to court and.

He.

Had.

Second-degree manslaughter and negligent homicide charges two separate charges. Both of them threatened to put him in prison. Manslaughter charge was dismissed on Friday after the jury jury was deadlocked in deliberation.

The jury acquitted penny on the negligent homicide charge on Monday and the former charge required that penny killed Neely and intentionally. Without premeditation, but also without justification. The later charge required proof that penny killed Neely by acting negligently through without malice without malice and ultimately the prosecution could prove neither and for a good reason penny did neither so.

This is great, I mean, I just mm-hmm. I almost like you think of Derek Chauvin in jail and you're like Man, like that guy like it was literally three years later and he wouldn't have been in jail. Probably.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is New York. This is not a Area that you would expect this to happen in either.

So.

What other things to talk about on this?

This part of the article was really good. What the part where the hero aspect. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah penny a former Marine Was destined to become the next Derek Chauvin moment. That's what a lot of us thought and the left tried to make it just that except this time the American people battered and bruised Weren't so gullible or willing.

Much like Kyle Rittenhouse Penny's case became a cultural flashpoint a microcosm of corrupt justice system and confused Society while the rest of the country was under medical house arrest. Black Lives Matter burned down the country.

So he's going back to memories, I don't want to relive but.

What BLM did. He's making a good point near this last paragraph when he mentions how? Vigilante ISM is that which emerges like not like because it it's just out of necessity when you're in a state of Anarcho-tyranny, which is a very important concept that he's playing that will for for talking about because a scary evil guy.

Said it or something like that. Oh, Sam Francis. Yes, Sam. Yes. Yes.

Sam Francis. Yes. But no, I mean, it's just simply an observation of reality that when the when you're governing officials Are not willing to enforce the law you are held under a state of tyranny. Not necessarily by the state because they're not actually being tyrants because they're just doing nothing.

They're they're handicapped. You are being held under a state of tyranny by people who are able to and willing to commit Violent heinous crimes because they know they won't get in trouble. And so when law enforcement when the state when these people are not willing to To actually do anything about it.

That's that's an arco tyranny and that's where vigilante ISM emerges is because if they're not gonna It's no one else if the those things that God has put in place to defend us will not defend us. Then we need to do something essentially.

So yeah.

Nice. Yeah, so I'm noticing someone's posting David ladies posting some I'm not familiar with this stuff, but articles about nice BLM leaders that are getting prosecuted for various things. So Yeah, it's about time.

I mean obviously, there's not going to be the Level to which we'd love to see justice, but Just just know that there's some justice being done on this stuff is good to know. So yeah yeah, so I don't know if there's anything else you want to say about this, but Yeah, penny took a big risk, especially I.

Mean, I can't imagine like would you here's the question? I think for Christians men out there like would you in his situation on a subway? Would you do what he did or would you just walk the other way and say not my problem?

Or, you know try to you call a police officer. But like as soon as you put your hand on this guy and this guy's a black guy, right? So, you know the narrative that the media uses you are For life now going to be marked.

And it's not guaranteed that you're gonna be a hero. In fact, the track record is you will probably be vilified for it. Would you still do it Matthew? Oh. You're putting me on the spot. I don't know. You're the only one that can talk to me right now.

So.

That's uh, I don't know. There's a lot to consider about that. It takes a lot of courage to do what he did and You know if I had like a family there. You know that that would certainly incentivize me a little bit, but then you also have to consider.

Well, do I go to jail while my family's out there, you know? So there's a lot to consider. What I would like to say I would do. I would love to say that I would be bold courageous and do it like. Consequences to hell, you know, I just do it.

But you know, I do consider. I'm like, what if I had hesitate a little bit? So, I don't know. Like I said, I'd like to say I do it but I can't say it's it's easy to say it.

It's harder to actually do it. Yeah, when push comes to shove there's no doubt about that. We all think you would be heroes and I mean I don't know if I you've been in a situation where it did call for violence and I have and you know, I.

Once your adrenaline goes it's so hard to control that it overwhelms you. I think you know in law enforcement and in the military they teach you how to control that but you you think you would have all this energy and be a hero and then like.

The energy just doesn't necessarily come to you and it's like it's so much easier to. When you have flight or fight to flight. Mm-hmm, but one of the things here, I think is worth asking is a quote from R and McIntyre.

Our friend I think you know aren't right. Yeah, I've met him in person once before. Yes, so your best friends and yeah, absolutely.

Yes, that's why doesn't follow me back on Twitter.

Aren't really? Follows me on Twitter. Yeah, I don't know what's going on. I think he follows me. I have to check now. All right, McIntyre. The first step to making America great again is honoring brave men.

What do you think? Is that the first step? What do you. I don't know if that's.

Yeah, I certainly think that's a part of it because we live in an age and I believe I'm remembering rightly the kind of time And kind of touched on this in his article. I don't have it pulled up with me.

But where he essentially says that like we're all about Like not being confrontational about anything including necessary situations and part of what makes someone Heroic is that they are willing to be confrontational and our society is like people are conflict avoidant people hate conflict people would rather like People don't like to argue people don't like to actually like get they just want to avoid problems and part of being a hero is being someone who's willing to Confront problems head-on and resolve it and take care of it.

Which our culture is afraid of and I would say it's a flaw of our culture. So if you do want to get around that about the micro and the macro level You ought to elevate heroes. And I mean, that's just natural demand that he Have heroes and that he honor them, you know.

You think of even like the commandments of like honor thy father and mother like that extends beyond just mother and father especially if you read any of like the confessional documents of magisterial Protestantism like that extends to your forefathers that extends your Grandparents that extends to those in political office that extends to church authorities so it's a matter of Justice basically, what is someone's do and if someone does a heroic act part of that Which is their do is to receive honor for what they have done and thus as an act of justice.

You need to honor those who have done heroic things if you are made aware of that which they have done because that's part of respecting The dignity of heroic and courageous men. So that that's what I would say about that.

Yeah, I think the Romans called it pietas Honoring honoring the fathers, but the fathers was plural. It was not just your. We we actually I think. Do you think of this because of like Father's Day? It's like you're it's just your father.

We have a separate day for Grandfather's Day, but honoring fathers and scripture goes far beyond that and. Yeah, I was thinking like Honoring men. I think I aren't right about this because honoring men that are heroes, you know assuming we have the same definition of a hero, which is someone who exhibits the cardinal virtues prudence justice fortitude temperance and.

You know fortitude me, you know. Also, you know being courage or bravery.

They.

They also are the ones that are tasked with the role of protecting society They protect the family, but they also protect the broader society. They're the ones that make up your military force I should say you're effective military force because we know That there are now women in the military in various roles.

I'm not saying they can't you know, I'm not saying they don't have any Use whatsoever, you know, like yeah watch Mulan watch Mulan. No women can't I mean, yeah, like, you know, there's certain things they can certainly do but the point is that Men are uniquely equipped to be the ones that physically defend they are in general stronger physically.

They have testosterone they have more aggression they have psychology that's Necessary for it. I mean, there's so many they're just they're made for it to to do those kinds of things so if you have a society that keeps kicking those guys to the curve and Saying they don't have a place.

They're bigots. They're they're the problem. It's this testosterone. It's toxic masculinity Masculinity that's the problem then you disincentivize it and if you disincentivize it there is no way to Actually protect the things that truly matter because who's gonna want to step up and be a hero who's gonna want to be a Daniel Penny or a Kyle Rittenhouse but if you reward and incentivize those things.

By.

Recognizing them publicly for the heroes. They are then it gives people a standard to shoot for and They're gonna there's gonna be a standard like no matter what there will be a standard. But instead of you know, selfish I don't even know who are the hero you might be better on this than me.

Like who are the people other than I mean you said Donald Trump for like right-wing Gen Z men. But like I'm trying to think like who are the masculine ish? Maybe they're not even masculine in their traits.

But like the men that guys look to in your generation, do you even have an idea of that?

I can't really think it went off the top of my head besides like goofy superhero heroes. Maybe around. Yeah. You know what's gonna happen right when this podcast ends. It's gonna hit me and I'm gonna remember something that was painfully obvious and then I'll just say it for next week.

Nothing at the moment. I don't I got nothing and I think that was actually the point I made on the conversations that matter podcast. My guest appearance there. Um. Where I was kind of like, yeah Gen Z guys don't really have Anyone to really look up to.

But I don't know I would say that For Jen, you know any Gen Z listeners out there if you you want like a hero I mean aside of like the obvious God obviously God is a hero. He became flesh died and Resurrected and ascended and not only that but he lived a perfect life.

So that's he is like the form of Hero, um, but besides like that look to your father. Many fathers have sacrificed a ton for their their sons and their daughters. I know my father has sacrificed much For me.

He worked long hours so that he could pay to send me to private schools from pre-k through 12 he worked a lot so that he could help me pay for my undergraduate degree. He has sacrificed a lot for me and not only that I've seen him be protective in Circumstances where it looked like there were threats.

So look to your father that's that's always a good hero to have if you have a father like that and if you have a an absent father look towards.

Any.

Figure in your life. Even um, even women display Heroic traits at times, you know. A mama bears, you know. Thinking of just like the animal kingdom a mama bear scary. That's heroic protecting her a little her little cubs.

And I think it was a thing of CS Lewis and one of his letters where he basically said like an Angry heroic woman is arguably scarier than a man at times. But no, they're like, um, I would say that there are plenty of heroic figures.

You can look to and just start with mom and pops.

You do have a question. What if the forefathers were a bunch of pagan devil worshiping idolaters or false religion? Especially for those Christian converts first-generation wise. Mm-hmm. How would they honor them?

That's what that is. That is a good question. I think that what you would need to do there is first off. You're not confined to just your direct ancestors, especially if you're a Christian you can look to even if you don't have a drop of Jewish blood in your veins.

You are a.

Spiritual descendant of Israel and every faithful saint in the scriptures Old and New Testament is your forefather and you can look to them. And not only that though is that even our fathers prior to Christ?

Depending on which civilization and culture oftentimes still did display heroic virtuous things if you are a. You know if you're a European man reading the Odyssey. You can still look to the heroic acts of Odysseus and say I want to follow in this trait now.

There are a lot of bad things that happen and ancient Greek and There is a notion though of Civic virtue and Peter Martyr Vermigli. I can't remember where he talks about this. Actually Stephen Wolfe and his in case for Christian nationalism cites this section.

I'll have to find it later. I let someone borrow my book but um. He basically says that even civil virtue even if it's not virtuous in the eyes of God can stave off the punishments That God has for a nation there.

You can look at what pagan or like a pagan men caught up in false religions have done that are heroic and What you would do is while they may have been doing it for their own honor or glory or glory to a false God.

What you can do is you exemplify those virtues in your life and you do it to the glory of God so insofar as you are receiving glory that glory with you as a Christian. United to Christ is a participation in the very glory of God so that you can say with the Apostle Paul man never boasts in anything save the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ by which the world has been crucified to me and I To the world so you can still look to your forefathers.

Yet I've there are plenty of people that are not Christian that have done good heroic deeds. The only thing that separates us from them is that they God does not see it to be glorifying to him. But it is still a civic virtue which can be exemplified to the glory of God.